Really thought provoking and encouraging. Honestly a conversation that needs to be had more often and acted upon. Thanks for the Desiring God web ministry for putting up this resource. God Bless.
@Kimberly York I disagree bc you are talking about unregenerated/lost people who are the enemy of Christ and His precious Word. I know many with brown skin tones (see answersingenesis.org) are racist towards either their own people or others. So to be honest eerrsdtdrunless one is born again in Spirit and truth they will always be discriminatory 1John3:14. I highly recommend you to watch: illbehonest.com/racism-condemned-tim-conway. God bless!
I don't know if this problem is typically american, but as a french black christian, though i'm aware of some residual component of racism, the more i'm anchored in Christ the less i think (like almost never) of my skin color as problem. I'm not denying that in some situations, depending on the persons surrounding, i can anticipate some race inclined forms of thinking (given that France is predominantly white colored country). But being married to a white (and wonderful) woman, i have realized that, during the "courtship" times (meetings families etc.), that i was also bent to some prejudices which had to be avowed as racism! whether against some black, or white or asian people, etc. So i'm kind of puzzled listening to brother Bradley, giving the impression that racism will be eradicated when white people will unanimously get rid of their prejudices; as if the ideology of groups like black panthers, nation of islam or else the black Hebrew Israelites weren't prevalent in some vast portions of black american people. Finally, can we stick to the Church of Christ without trying to fix a world destined to be replaced? I mean, the new form of the practical implications of covenant theology is really perplexing in several ways... but tis' another question
Oh, I see, so you're not a christian. Hebrew Israelite, is it right? Look, I maintain my respect to you. However, I won't be able to speak things you would agree since I think it to be utterly unbiblical not to make differences between the people of Christ (cf. Revelation) from all tribes, tongues, peoples and nations, and the lost world. You cannot speak of "whites" in general as if no white would agree with the social movement, or as if none had fought the battle alongside black activists in the 60', or worst, as if there were no difference between being a white heathen and a regenerated blood bought white! The same goes with black people... if you choose a black heathen over a white servant of Christ... you're very dead (cf. 1 John about not loving brothers in the faith while pretending to love God the Father).
The black panthers, nation of Islam and Hebrew Israelites all came into being as RESPONSES to white/western racism. Which is found in every crease of society.
Thank you for your courage and willingness to stand for Truth and to speak out for our brothers and sisters who are not the majority race. Social justice = social advocacy + action.
Latinos and Asians are NOT the majority race either. Yet they usually have a Father in the house, get their children an education are good citizens and don't "Blame" someone else for their shortcomings.
@@terryjp3050 Latino is not a race. Also, Black people do have fathers around. A lot just don't live in the household. 48% of black children grow up in partial or joint custody households. 30% of black children grow up in married households. That means that 78% of black children see their father on a regular basis. Black people are educated as well. Black women are actually the most educated group.
@@asdfghjkl3003 There's a significant cultural difference between a latino black person and a black person from the usa. Latino culture affects the ethnic groups that are from it, which often includes strong families. The black person from usa culture is on average more disadvantaged than the black latino in the same category.
I respect both these brothers. As a minority, I just disagree that merely being a member of majority culture gives you white privilege to be free from the burdens of minority thinking. I would love to see the study Anthony cited. And I wonder what he thinks of Thomas Sowell’s “Discrimination and Disparities”.
There are many preachers I listen to,Voddie Baucham,John Mcarthur,Paul Washer,Jeff Durbin,to name just a few. The ones I had reservations about from the start( when I was drawn by God) were Tim Keller and John Piper , plus many more. Discernment is most important in a Christian life.
Looking at the comments here, it is scary to see that there are STILL white Christians that refuse to acknowledge the problem of racism within the church. This is so sad. I'm glad that this discussion is being had though. It can become incredibly exhausting explaining this issue to those that don't understand over and over again. May God give us all the grace to listen to each other and repent for our sins.
I dont see christian black folks venturing outside their comfort zones very much on Sunday's. Believe it or not, in the year 2019, it's a two way street.
There was a noted exodus in 2016 when minorities in white evangelical churches felt incredibly disappointed with the church's response to Donald Trump. Even so, if I visit a white church, I'm bound to see at least one black person, usually a couple asians, and a few hispanics. If I go to a black church, or a hispanic church? I've always been the only white person there. And it's shameful, because if anything, we ought to be the ones reaching out. The intiative shouldn't be on minorities to seek out the people who disdained them. We ought to be coming to them.
@@tracyknight5130 not sure where you live, but my family is one of those "black folks" that has ventured in a primarily white church for the last 20 years. And we were one among quite a few. Every primary white church I've been too (and I've been to over 10) had black folks working their way in. As someone who has lived the experience that you somehow have not seen. If you are white, tell me your experience of attending at least a 95 percent black church over the course of 20 years? If you want to talk about a truly rare occurrence, look no further. Thanks.
@@n8james2 I was baptized in a black church...but my motivation to go there was initially a black woman i liked. I felt a desire to be baptized and they were kind to do it.
Agree about the need to understand the issues facing blacks. But when Keller talks about raising support for missions he should ask a West Virginian how hard it is to raise what the mission's organizations, who are located in Colorado or Florida cities, require you to raise. After serving in the field, going through my local WV church. I've gotten to know a lot of Americans, who I love but have no idea financially how different it is compared to our respective states. P.S. Not coming fr a rich background has helped me better relate to people here.
Keller is a marxist. He thinks marxist thought will help the issues of inequality. He also seems to think that Christianity is about creating world equality by human effort? But i thought that was marx's goal.
I enjoyed this talk a great deal. Often Piper comes across as a bit legalistic to me, but his talk here was a great deal more grace-filled, so maybe I haven't been giving him enough credit. They handled the topic with what I thought to be sensitivity and firmness, not diminishing the problem or the scope of racism, but avoided the condemnation, presenting it as a necessary struggle for understanding more than a thing-that-only-awful-people do. And they also cut through what I've personally felt to be the utter hopelessness of the struggle--how can I possibly keep in mind all the different things, why am I still offending people when I'm trying so hard--by presenting it as a necessary struggle akin to the fight against sin. This was greatly heartening.
Can I encourage u to listen to him more. He is very sensitive and not legalistic at all. He is very passionate about living right but always emphasises that we need the Holy Spirit.
I liked some of the commentary but overall I can't concur when the moderate goes into tip toeing around the issues of white supremacy within the body of Christ.
This idea, that somehow the white ethnic group shares the largest portion of guilt concerning racism is not only false, it's also borne out of pride. Because essentially, even in this instance you're putting white people at the center of the issue as both the provocateur and solution when in fact, every single person as individuals have a role to play regardless of their ethnic background. I say all this as an Asian.
Kimberly York Historically, because white people were in positions of power, their racism was more prevalent. And they deserve their share of “historic” blame no doubt about it. But to say in this day and age, that white people are the most racist race, is itself a racist comment unsubstantiated by any facts worth mentioning.People are individuals and you can find racist people of all shades and races. It has nothing to do with color of your skin and everything to do with what lies inside your psyche.
Kimberly York My foremost identity is as a christian not american. If you are Christian and believe mIntain this victimhood narrative, you’re doing something wrong. If you sren’t christian I bave to wonder what brought you to a channel for Christians. Maybe because you’re looking as hard as you can for a “cause” where there is none Final point I went back to your initial response; you call me a typical white person when i firmly expressed that i am ethnically asian in my op. Good grief..
Kimberly York You're obviously very bitter, it comes out in your words plain as day. The fact of the matter is, if you are indeed Christian, you are called to love all people irrespective of their faults let alone their ethnicity. You say you don't play the victim, but the fact that you ascribe the greatest portion of blame on "white Christians" shows that you do have a victim mentality. It's so much more convenient when the ills of the world are somebody else's fault after all. I would recommend you apply a little bit more introspection and humbleness to your thoughts. Christianity is not a religion to justify your bitterness but a call to die on the cross as Christ did for us.
Kimberly York Even rebuke should come from a place of love. If you have Christ in you who is the embodiment of love, there is no other way you can go about it. You come off as extremely hostile and from experience, that sort of mindset usually comes from a place of hate. See even your words in your latest post "God will avenge you the blood of your ancestors" is seething with vile vitriol and is plain wrong to boot. God has already forgiven those with the repentant heart, by the blood of Jesus Christ. It even says in the 10 commandments: Do not judge lest ye be Judged. I'm sorry to say you don't sound like a Christian, but more like a satanist. Every single thing you say is laced with hate. Sort it out before it's too late.
Kimberly York If your main takeaway from the bible is that God is a God of vengeance and not a God of love, you've totally missed the mark. If God 'was' a God of vengeance, he would not have sent His Son to save us from our sins when we were not deserving. The problem with your argument fundamentally is that you think a certain group is more morally reprehensible, when the reality is that we're all flawed as human beings. Africans have done terrible crimes, so have the Europeans on a national level. Asians have blood on their hands and so do Muslims. We all have things to answer for so when you only narrowly focus on "White Christians" I can only see you as ideologically driven. I truly feel bad for you though, I can't imagine it to be pleasant being burdened by hate to that degree. I hope you can get out of it.
@@sovereigngrace9723 social justice is a good thing. There absolutely should be social justice in society. Calling social justice as a concept evil is evil.... Now if we want to talk about what specific social justice issues are and are not justice, then let's have those conversations
Am tackling this view at a South African church - of whites (and all races, really) just easily sitting each on one side and not blending. It seems to be human nature that we need to battle. And why do we need to battle it? TO GET READY FOR HEAVEN OF COURSE :-)...where we will be for all eternity with all races tribes and tongues, worshipping together. May as well get used to it and celebrate bringing a heavenly way to earth by being gloriously multi-cultural, which my current church is (with all its thrills and spills).
move to the congo, Guadalajara or the middle east and get back to us on "getting use to it" please. Be thankful your WHITE MAN built the safest nation's for women and children.
Claire, the Gentleman above (Jack Black) has a very valid point..... The relative stability of Christian worship that you enjoy as a White woman in South Africa is largely because of the result of the prosperity that White South Africans in the past has created... Acknowledging the greatness of your White ancestors will NOT make you Unchristian.... If you as a White woman goes to Haiti or Zambia or Liberia, you might find yourself to have a very different opinion,
Hi Claire, I am also in South Africa, Pretoria. I love Jesus and am privileged to be a part of His church (yes, with all its thrills and spills). Over the last couple years I have been talking with people about race and have recently started a private facebook group on "Racial healing and reconciliation in post apartheid South Africa". I love that my church is multi-racial and it really is like family but I find that often white people are ignorant to the hurt and brokenness that still remains and it is assumed that not talking about it is fine because it is in the past. I really enjoy your views on needing to battle and getting ready for heaven. Thanks for sharing, it excites me to see other people with a heart for God's perspective, keep going...
It doesn't mean that people don't deal with issues based on that evolutionary doctrine. Minorities have slights against them. Ask any minorities you know if they've ever been mistreated because of ethnicity, their tribe, or language. It's an issue no matter how it came about and now we have to have God's heart to deal with what we have now.
@@annlowry9841 Europeans at the time of colonialism had huge advantages to the other parts of the world. They felt they were better than the people they colonized because of their advancement in technology, complex style of government, and immense wealth. When arabs had advanced technology, they came to Europe and took two million people as slaves. When human beings have advantages they naturally (in their flesh or human nature) feel they are better. But as the scriptures say the rich man is really poor and blind because he neglects the things of God.
This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. As a Christian I am no longer carnal. I am a new creature spiritually and I am seeking to imitate my Savior who loves every one of us so much that He died for for each of us. Satan is the ruler of this world and the father of racism, hatred, dissension, and envy. This is man seeking to solve a problem without GOD.
@@jackblack496 why do you have to go out of your way to say such a mean thing? Why assume that just because this person has a Hispanic wife and 5 children with her that their IQ will be low?
@@rickyjewett6082 While he is probably accurate on IQ what I personally find odd is how white people virtue signal their miscegenation. The white male has become an effeminate and confused soul. Their nations are being taken from them and they are being told it is virtuous. They will suffer for their cuckoldry.
They're not African either. Africans are born in African. Are white Americans "European Americans"? These fake categories. Most white Americans have zero connection to European.
Also- WHO in 2018 who are Christians are still opposed to inter-cultural marriage? I can't get my head around it. I guess I was very blessed to be raised in a home where it was never even suggested that there was anything wrong with it, and I saw it so often in the areas of the country I lived in. But... man I just think that is such a sinful attitude that need to be repented of.
Your entire notion of race is unBiblical. Jews were told not to intermarry with non-Jews because of their covenant with God, not because of any ethnic or melanin-based biological marker. Abraham, who was called out of Ur of the Chaldeans, was an Aramean, a descendent of Schem, as were many of the other tribes in the fertile cresecent. Ishmael was a son of Abraham, an Schemite, and yet God told the Israelites NOT to intermarry iwth them, not becuasae they were a different "race" (there is actually only one race, it is human.... everything else is simply ethnicity and skin color) but because in doing so they would open themselves up to unholy influences of idolatry and pagan worship. Once the gospel was shared with the nations, there was no longer a need to Israel to marry only unto themselves. So your attempt to use God's direction to Israel not to marry pagans as an excuse for white supremacy ( the idea that you think that folks with different skin colors having babies with a lovely raibow of hues is somehow "diluting" their whiteness shows that you have an unhealthy idolotrous perspective on your skin color) is entirely unbiblical. Second, your white nationalist-fed argument that no one is asking other nations to dilute their race or culture is so ahistorical, and uneducated, it is profound. Native peoples all over the Americas, African, and Asia, anywhere where Europeans colonized, were asked and expected to do just that- to conform to patterns of "whiteness" and europeanness. First nations children wer eput into schools away from their families and cultures in an attempt to anglacize them. Many cultural practices of native american peoples ithroughout the new world were banned by European governments. Furthermore, sadly, to those populations that were subjected under white supremacy, having more "white blood" breeded into their children was actually considered of benefit. Black children who had lighter skin due to their mother having relationships with their white masters were considered better and more eligable for work in the house as opposed to the field, and to this day light-skinned black people are seen as more favorable than dark skinned both in the white and the black community and so this idea of "more whitness" absolutely HAS penetrated other cultures. Asian people often bleach their skin and have surgery on their eye lids to appear more white. Indian people who rejected their native culture refer to themselves as "Anglo Indians" and use European names and customs to set themsleves apart, and in many instances above, their "still-Indian Indian" countrymen. In conclusion, though my guess would be that your hearat is so hardenned on this issue that anything I type here will not sway you, your ideas are all unfactual. I pity your wife and, God forbid, any children you might have, that you view them as somehow watering down or trying to destroy your perfect whiteness. May God forgive your bigotry and soften your heart to repentance.
I'm sorry, but when Piper talks and sits there he always reminds me of a pious scared mouse. I always have a hard time listening to this guy. He makes me feel like an impotent Christian, so I turn him off.
I am White, I didn't plan it. I did choose to get educated, did you? I try (not always successful ) to accept my mistakes and move on, not Blaming others, do you?
A black christian man has the same power a white Christian man has Romans 8. Trying to make this about equal outcomes and based on identity being first and foremost about skin color and not Christ, is not biblical. Mark 4:20.
For a Q&A titled "Race and the Christian", it's a shame that they almost exclusively focused on the racial blunders of white people. Listening to them, one might conclude that "Western Whites" are the only people on the planet beset with racism, and that racism from non-whites doesn't affect the Church. Their refusal to deal with the full spectrum of racism that plague churches in the USA is both peculiar and glaring. One wonders what would motivate this willful blindness. They should have either changed the title to "White racism and the Christian in the USA" (which is what the Q&A is really about) or they should have equally rebuked all races for their particular implementation(s) of both racism and reverse-racism. Could it be that the disconnect between the title and the discussion was brought on by the fact that it's politically incorrect to talk about "reverse-racism"? If so, that doesn't speak very highly of the integrity of the speakers. Something to think about.
cognitive dissonance your dealing with your afraid of equality, you think equality is oppression, and again if equality was not the new law of jesus you as white person would never ever have been given the gospel but would only would have been given to the jews.
Piper is COMPLETELY wrong in trying to infer that Moses was "WHITE"! There is other reason to think of Moses as looking "different" than Tzipora, other than holding on to racist motifs like the movies "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" & "EXODUS GODS & KINGS". The Biblical record actually leans to the side of Moses looking more like an African (Egyptian). Forget the "shades" of their skin! The bottom line is that you cannot call Moses & Tzipora's marriage an interracial marriage unless you are holding on to some kind of fictional narrative, it is definitely not from the Biblical narrative. Furthermore the curse of "leprosy" needs to be further investigated by these theologians!
+bnpanera Kinda yes, kinda no. Aaron and Miriam's complaint in Numbers 12 isn't talking about Moses' marriage to Zippora the (brown-skinned) Midianite. It's about his previous marriage to a (black-skinned) Ethiopian woman. - Some people try to conflate the two, but Cush (ie, Ethiopia) and Midian are *not* the same place, and never have been. Nor have their peoples been of the same ancestry. Midianites are Semetic descendants of Abraham (Gen 25:2), while Ethiopians are descendants of Ham (Gen 10:6). That Ethiopian's skin color differs from Jews is evident from Jeremiah 13:23 - Josephus, in Antiquities of the Jews, writes about how Moses married an Ethiopian princess while he was still in Egypt, before he fled Pharaoh to go to Midian. The Bible doesn't mention this episode, but there is no reason to believe it is not true. However, you're right on one point: Piper does flub in speaking of God's taunt when he references Miriam's white (leprous) skin. If anything, God would have said "Miriam - You want BROWN .. HERE!" and struck Miriam with a brown disease, not a white disease. Because Miriam wasn't kvetching about the Ethiopian woman not being white - if anything, it was about either the Ethiopian woman being black, and/or that he married a descendant of Ham, and not someone ethnically related to Abraham.
LOL so those black mummies are not real?... funny! Europe is black thats why they call southern Europe the iberian penninsula.. websters dictionary from the 1800s states were the first european peoples who were swarthy.. meaning black.
Two thoughts: The problem here is why are there two white theologians answering questions and a black theologian moderating? Hmmm... maybe have a black theologian on as well? Second, I did love Dr Piper's comment about how humbling ourselves and NOT wanting power DOES need to be preached, and yet culture/racial majority people have to be realize that they DO have hte power, whether they like it or not, and they have to find the way to share it, throw it off, etc for hte good of his brothers and sisters.
Power and hierarchy is an inevitable part of life. To suddenly say white people shouldn't have power is a prejudiced statement. When obviously everyone in this video sitting on stage has a form of power. You have power to influence by making a statement online as well. To say power is bad is to say life is bad because power in different forms is a necessity in life. It's what it's used for, not the thing itself that matters.
Ultimately power is what marxism is obsessed with. Christianity isn't that obsessed with it. When it's obedience to authority (even to slave masters) that paul was promoting. The kingdom of heaven isn't like the kingdom of earth, that's why Christianity grew in the Roman empire, because slaves were actually influencing slave masters by their faith!
I’m somewhat confused by his example of the “Scientific study” about the reviews for black professors. How in the hell is something like that even remotely quantified and studied scientifically. I think these conversations are good to have and long over due. There are obviously countless ways for white church leaders to improve in their understanding, I just get extremely skeptical when I start hearing BS examples that are supposed to prove something.
Such nonsense. Keller and Piper stray so far from consulting biblical truth on this issue. This is sad, because they are both solid on so many other issues. And holy cow, that moderator has zero interest in anything scriptural unless he can twist it to support his personal agenda.
As an Asian American, why can't African Americans understand that this country is a white dominated country. If this country was 70÷ black, I would accept that and move on. Dr. Keller says things that seem wise from the worldly perspective but are not biblical sometimes. Where in the Bible say that Jews must not marry only Jews? God sees us as human race. If we want changes or somehow guilt, look at native Americans! They still live in uninhabitable reservations! Why is white and black an issue? If tall men dominate basketball, is it unfair and we should limit basketball to be certain percentage to be certain height or even color? What does color have anything to do with Christianity. Satan will always conflate political and social agenda with our purpose in life which is to glorify God and spread the Good News! I believe Dr. Piper worded it perfectly that Christians should be seeking serventhood not trying to be power hungry! To be honest, yes I was in many situations where I was the only Asian. But that has nothing to do with wanting power over the majority. Again if you are a true Christian, you should not feel powerless bc of your color bc our strength comes from the Lord not our color.
Tim McGuire so what are you trying to say exactly? I don't think you even know... the context for the 'lost sheep' was to test the faith of the woman! So did Jesus not grant her wish? Also who said 'All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:'? It was Jesus. Before you condemn others, first look at yourself to see if you really understand and be humbled by His grace! We did not deserve to be saved, but He saved us. Your comment come across as spoiled kid who needs to be treated well bc he thinks he deserves it. Humble yourself and have the fear of the Lord in you. Only then you will understand his love and mercy. Btw the way you used the word 'Asians' is affensive! Just read what you wrote! - just replace it with white and you will realize how immature you sound.
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Forget it. You obviously have poor reading comprehension. Now I know why you don't understand the bible at all. You must be an SJW as your ad hominem attack shows your immaturity.
Tim McGuire - When you lose an argument justn resort to finger pointing lol! But keep reading the Bible and have the word change you.
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I think that anyone that read this thread could clearly see that you lost. In my first paragraph I expressed admiration and gratitude. How is that unchristian? I explained my views. You got a chip and the imaginary notion that you somehow understand the bible better than me. And if you are speaking of the woman to whom Jesus said, "It is not meet to give the children's bread to the dogs" and she said, Yes but even the DOGS get the crumbs from the master's table". It was because she RECOGNIZED HER PLACE. She admitted she was a dog She admitted she was not of the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore had no covenant right to ask him for anything as he was not sent to her....kind of like you so thank you for bringing that up.'
Tim McGuire - I hope that one day God will open the eyes of your heart. We all fall short of the glory of God. And yet you just accused your brother as a dog? This tells the sick, twisted interpretation you have about the Word of God! No one is righteous not even one. We all are saved through grace not bc of your ethnicity. Hope that one day that you believe Jesus died for your sins.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE John Piper! He’s so cool. He’s so passionate!...Hashtag no idolatry.
I'd recommend listening to each of the talks, John, Tim and Anthony did before listening to this discussion.
Really thought provoking and encouraging. Honestly a conversation that needs to be had more often and acted upon. Thanks for the Desiring God web ministry for putting up this resource. God Bless.
Racism will have eternal consequence and thank God true Christians aren't racist!
@Kimberly York
I disagree bc you are talking about unregenerated/lost people who are the enemy of Christ and His precious Word.
I know many with brown skin tones (see answersingenesis.org) are racist towards either their own people or others.
So to be honest eerrsdtdrunless one is born again in Spirit and truth they will always be discriminatory 1John3:14.
I highly recommend you to watch:
illbehonest.com/racism-condemned-tim-conway.
God bless!
I don't know if this problem is typically american, but as a french black christian, though i'm aware of some residual component of racism, the more i'm anchored in Christ the less i think (like almost never) of my skin color as problem. I'm not denying that in some situations, depending on the persons surrounding, i can anticipate some race inclined forms of thinking (given that France is predominantly white colored country). But being married to a white (and wonderful) woman, i have realized that, during the "courtship" times (meetings families etc.), that i was also bent to some prejudices which had to be avowed as racism! whether against some black, or white or asian people, etc. So i'm kind of puzzled listening to brother Bradley, giving the impression that racism will be eradicated when white people will unanimously get rid of their prejudices; as if the ideology of groups like black panthers, nation of islam or else the black Hebrew Israelites weren't prevalent in some vast portions of black american people. Finally, can we stick to the Church of Christ without trying to fix a world destined to be replaced? I mean, the new form of the practical implications of covenant theology is really perplexing in several ways... but tis' another question
Are you christian?
Oh, I see, so you're not a christian. Hebrew Israelite, is it right? Look, I maintain my respect to you. However, I won't be able to speak things you would agree since I think it to be utterly unbiblical not to make differences between the people of Christ (cf. Revelation) from all tribes, tongues, peoples and nations, and the lost world. You cannot speak of "whites" in general as if no white would agree with the social movement, or as if none had fought the battle alongside black activists in the 60', or worst, as if there were no difference between being a white heathen and a regenerated blood bought white! The same goes with black people... if you choose a black heathen over a white servant of Christ... you're very dead (cf. 1 John about not loving brothers in the faith while pretending to love God the Father).
The black panthers, nation of Islam and Hebrew Israelites all came into being as RESPONSES to white/western racism. Which is found in every crease of society.
Romans 8:1. No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28. Also Galatians 5 walk in the Spirit.
@@nmartin802 does that make it less racist or something?
Very interesting...I love John Piper's heart in the one new man in the gospel of JESUS CHRIST...
Thank you for your courage and willingness to stand for Truth and to speak out for our brothers and sisters who are not the majority race. Social justice = social advocacy + action.
You, sir, as so blinded by hatred you missed the obvious fact that this woman is white. She's blonde for God's sake. Go home.
Latinos and Asians are NOT the majority race either. Yet they usually have a Father in the house, get their children an education are good citizens and don't "Blame" someone else for their shortcomings.
@@terryjp3050 Latino is not a race. Also, Black people do have fathers around. A lot just don't live in the household. 48% of black children grow up in partial or joint custody households. 30% of black children grow up in married households. That means that 78% of black children see their father on a regular basis. Black people are educated as well. Black women are actually the most educated group.
@@asdfghjkl3003
There's a significant cultural difference between a latino black person and a black person from the usa. Latino culture affects the ethnic groups that are from it, which often includes strong families. The black person from usa culture is on average more disadvantaged than the black latino in the same category.
I respect both these brothers. As a minority, I just disagree that merely being a member of majority culture gives you white privilege to be free from the burdens of minority thinking.
I would love to see the study Anthony cited. And I wonder what he thinks of Thomas Sowell’s “Discrimination and Disparities”.
Timothy Keller 23: 42- 24:10 wonderful response..
Great discussion!
There are many preachers I listen to,Voddie Baucham,John Mcarthur,Paul Washer,Jeff Durbin,to name just a few. The ones I had reservations about from the start( when I was drawn by God) were Tim Keller and John Piper , plus many more. Discernment is most important in a Christian life.
Looking at the comments here, it is scary to see that there are STILL white Christians that refuse to acknowledge the problem of racism within the church. This is so sad.
I'm glad that this discussion is being had though. It can become incredibly exhausting explaining this issue to those that don't understand over and over again. May God give us all the grace to listen to each other and repent for our sins.
I dont see christian black folks venturing outside their comfort zones very much on Sunday's. Believe it or not, in the year 2019, it's a two way street.
There was a noted exodus in 2016 when minorities in white evangelical churches felt incredibly disappointed with the church's response to Donald Trump. Even so, if I visit a white church, I'm bound to see at least one black person, usually a couple asians, and a few hispanics. If I go to a black church, or a hispanic church? I've always been the only white person there.
And it's shameful, because if anything, we ought to be the ones reaching out. The intiative shouldn't be on minorities to seek out the people who disdained them. We ought to be coming to them.
@@tracyknight5130 not sure where you live, but my family is one of those "black folks" that has ventured in a primarily white church for the last 20 years. And we were one among quite a few. Every primary white church I've been too (and I've been to over 10) had black folks working their way in. As someone who has lived the experience that you somehow have not seen. If you are white, tell me your experience of attending at least a 95 percent black church over the course of 20 years? If you want to talk about a truly rare occurrence, look no further. Thanks.
@@n8james2
I was baptized in a black church...but my motivation to go there was initially a black woman i liked. I felt a desire to be baptized and they were kind to do it.
@Cold Fire
That's awesome, thanks for sharing.
Thank you...
Agree about the need to understand the issues facing blacks. But when Keller talks about raising support for missions he should ask a West Virginian how hard it is to raise what the mission's organizations, who are located in Colorado or Florida cities, require you to raise. After serving in the field, going through my local WV church. I've gotten to know a lot of Americans, who I love but have no idea financially how different it is compared to our respective states. P.S. Not coming fr a rich background has helped me better relate to people here.
Keller is a marxist. He thinks marxist thought will help the issues of inequality. He also seems to think that Christianity is about creating world equality by human effort? But i thought that was marx's goal.
only 500 views, sad.
I wonder how much social power the disciples had.
Paul had tons as a Roman citizen. If you read the bible you would see he used it often.
13:17 is the best bit. Rest well Tim Keller.
Way to bend to the world view🙄
I enjoyed this talk a great deal. Often Piper comes across as a bit legalistic to me, but his talk here was a great deal more grace-filled, so maybe I haven't been giving him enough credit. They handled the topic with what I thought to be sensitivity and firmness, not diminishing the problem or the scope of racism, but avoided the condemnation, presenting it as a necessary struggle for understanding more than a thing-that-only-awful-people do. And they also cut through what I've personally felt to be the utter hopelessness of the struggle--how can I possibly keep in mind all the different things, why am I still offending people when I'm trying so hard--by presenting it as a necessary struggle akin to the fight against sin. This was greatly heartening.
Can I encourage u to listen to him more. He is very sensitive and not legalistic at all. He is very passionate about living right but always emphasises that we need the Holy Spirit.
I liked some of the commentary but overall I can't concur when the moderate goes into tip toeing around the issues of white supremacy within the body of Christ.
No one is supreme in the body of Christ except JESUS. The foot of the cross is level ground.
Crt is marxism. Marxism will not solve human problems in the heart. Only Christ can do that.
This idea, that somehow the white ethnic group shares the largest portion of guilt concerning racism is not only false, it's also borne out of pride. Because essentially, even in this instance you're putting white people at the center of the issue as both the provocateur and solution when in fact, every single person as individuals have a role to play regardless of their ethnic background. I say all this as an Asian.
Kimberly York Historically, because white people were in positions of power, their racism was more prevalent. And they deserve their share of “historic” blame no doubt about it. But to say in this day and age, that white people are the most racist race, is itself a racist comment unsubstantiated by any facts worth mentioning.People are individuals and you can find racist people of all shades and races. It has nothing to do with color of your skin and everything to do with what lies inside your psyche.
Kimberly York My foremost identity is as a christian not american. If you are Christian and believe mIntain this victimhood narrative, you’re doing something wrong. If you sren’t christian I bave to wonder what brought you to a channel for Christians. Maybe because you’re looking as hard as you can for a “cause” where there is none
Final point I went back to your initial response; you call me a typical white person when i firmly expressed that i am ethnically asian in my op. Good grief..
Kimberly York You're obviously very bitter, it comes out in your words plain as day. The fact of the matter is, if you are indeed Christian, you are called to love all people irrespective of their faults let alone their ethnicity. You say you don't play the victim, but the fact that you ascribe the greatest portion of blame on "white Christians" shows that you do have a victim mentality. It's so much more convenient when the ills of the world are somebody else's fault after all. I would recommend you apply a little bit more introspection and humbleness to your thoughts. Christianity is not a religion to justify your bitterness but a call to die on the cross as Christ did for us.
Kimberly York Even rebuke should come from a place of love. If you have Christ in you who is the embodiment of love, there is no other way you can go about it. You come off as extremely hostile and from experience, that sort of mindset usually comes from a place of hate.
See even your words in your latest post "God will avenge you the blood of your ancestors" is seething with vile vitriol and is plain wrong to boot. God has already forgiven those with the repentant heart, by the blood of Jesus Christ. It even says in the 10 commandments: Do not judge lest ye be Judged.
I'm sorry to say you don't sound like a Christian, but more like a satanist. Every single thing you say is laced with hate. Sort it out before it's too late.
Kimberly York If your main takeaway from the bible is that God is a God of vengeance and not a God of love, you've totally missed the mark. If God 'was' a God of vengeance, he would not have sent His Son to save us from our sins when we were not deserving. The problem with your argument fundamentally is that you think a certain group is more morally reprehensible, when the reality is that we're all flawed as human beings. Africans have done terrible crimes, so have the Europeans on a national level. Asians have blood on their hands and so do Muslims. We all have things to answer for so when you only narrowly focus on "White Christians" I can only see you as ideologically driven. I truly feel bad for you though, I can't imagine it to be pleasant being burdened by hate to that degree. I hope you can get out of it.
GOOD
Is Tim Keller woke? Whaaaaat
Ryan Davis Having the holy Spirit is being woke. Everything else is slumber or day dreaming
@@leonscott543 I think he was meaning woke in the bad sense.... sacrificing biblical truth for 21st century social justice
@@sovereigngrace9723 social justice is a good thing. There absolutely should be social justice in society. Calling social justice as a concept evil is evil.... Now if we want to talk about what specific social justice issues are and are not justice, then let's have those conversations
@@leonscott543
Social justice's roots are in marxism. You can't separate it from marxism.
Am tackling this view at a South African church - of whites (and all races, really) just easily sitting each on one side and not blending. It seems to be human nature that we need to battle. And why do we need to battle it? TO GET READY FOR HEAVEN OF COURSE :-)...where we will be for all eternity with all races tribes and tongues, worshipping together. May as well get used to it and celebrate bringing a heavenly way to earth by being gloriously multi-cultural, which my current church is (with all its thrills and spills).
Thanks!!
move to the congo, Guadalajara or the middle east and get back to us on "getting use to it" please. Be thankful your WHITE MAN built the safest nation's for women and children.
Claire, the Gentleman above (Jack Black) has a very valid point..... The relative stability of Christian worship that you enjoy as a White woman in South Africa is largely because of the result of the prosperity that White South Africans in the past has created... Acknowledging the greatness of your White ancestors will NOT make you Unchristian.... If you as a White woman goes to Haiti or Zambia or Liberia, you might find yourself to have a very different opinion,
Hi Claire, I am also in South Africa, Pretoria. I love Jesus and am privileged to be a part of His church (yes, with all its thrills and spills). Over the last couple years I have been talking with people about race and have recently started a private facebook group on "Racial healing and reconciliation in post apartheid South Africa". I love that my church is multi-racial and it really is like family but I find that often white people are ignorant to the hurt and brokenness that still remains and it is assumed that not talking about it is fine because it is in the past. I really enjoy your views on needing to battle and getting ready for heaven. Thanks for sharing, it excites me to see other people with a heart for God's perspective, keep going...
There is no such thing as race in the bible their is ethnicities,tribes,nations, languages.Race is a evulution doctrine not bibical.
It doesn't mean that people don't deal with issues based on that evolutionary doctrine. Minorities have slights against them. Ask any minorities you know if they've ever been mistreated because of ethnicity, their tribe, or language. It's an issue no matter how it came about and now we have to have God's heart to deal with what we have now.
The concept of "race" is a fairly new idea that was invented by sudo-science in order to oppress people of color for the financial benefit of Whites.
@@annlowry9841
Europeans at the time of colonialism had huge advantages to the other parts of the world. They felt they were better than the people they colonized because of their advancement in technology, complex style of government, and immense wealth.
When arabs had advanced technology, they came to Europe and took two million people as slaves. When human beings have advantages they naturally (in their flesh or human nature) feel they are better. But as the scriptures say the rich man is really poor and blind because he neglects the things of God.
This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with Christians. As a Christian I am no longer carnal. I am a new creature spiritually and I am seeking to imitate my Savior who loves every one of us so much that He died for for each of us. Satan is the ruler of this world and the father of racism, hatred, dissension, and envy. This is man seeking to solve a problem without GOD.
Jack Burns lol
I have a beautiful hispanic wife and 5 kids with her . God is Good.
LOL
and a lower IQ family as a result.
Jack Black You personify the entire problem.
@@jackblack496 why do you have to go out of your way to say such a mean thing? Why assume that just because this person has a Hispanic wife and 5 children with her that their IQ will be low?
@@rickyjewett6082 While he is probably accurate on IQ what I personally find odd is how white people virtue signal their miscegenation. The white male has become an effeminate and confused soul. Their nations are being taken from them and they are being told it is virtuous. They will suffer for their cuckoldry.
Why you calling African Americans non white
They're not African either. Africans are born in African.
Are white Americans "European Americans"? These fake categories. Most white Americans have zero connection to European.
They forgot to invite James White and Jordan Peterson to spice things up....
To add some sane commentary, you mean? Deputation is easier for whites? Now what now?
Clearly these three own Christianity.
This is utter nonsense. This has not aged well.
Also- WHO in 2018 who are Christians are still opposed to inter-cultural marriage? I can't get my head around it. I guess I was very blessed to be raised in a home where it was never even suggested that there was anything wrong with it, and I saw it so often in the areas of the country I lived in. But... man I just think that is such a sinful attitude that need to be repented of.
Your entire notion of race is unBiblical. Jews were told not to intermarry with non-Jews because of their covenant with God, not because of any ethnic or melanin-based biological marker. Abraham, who was called out of Ur of the Chaldeans, was an Aramean, a descendent of Schem, as were many of the other tribes in the fertile cresecent. Ishmael was a son of Abraham, an Schemite, and yet God told the Israelites NOT to intermarry iwth them, not becuasae they were a different "race" (there is actually only one race, it is human.... everything else is simply ethnicity and skin color) but because in doing so they would open themselves up to unholy influences of idolatry and pagan worship. Once the gospel was shared with the nations, there was no longer a need to Israel to marry only unto themselves. So your attempt to use God's direction to Israel not to marry pagans as an excuse for white supremacy ( the idea that you think that folks with different skin colors having babies with a lovely raibow of hues is somehow "diluting" their whiteness shows that you have an unhealthy idolotrous perspective on your skin color) is entirely unbiblical.
Second, your white nationalist-fed argument that no one is asking other nations to dilute their race or culture is so ahistorical, and uneducated, it is profound. Native peoples all over the Americas, African, and Asia, anywhere where Europeans colonized, were asked and expected to do just that- to conform to patterns of "whiteness" and europeanness. First nations children wer eput into schools away from their families and cultures in an attempt to anglacize them. Many cultural practices of native american peoples ithroughout the new world were banned by European governments. Furthermore, sadly, to those populations that were subjected under white supremacy, having more "white blood" breeded into their children was actually considered of benefit. Black children who had lighter skin due to their mother having relationships with their white masters were considered better and more eligable for work in the house as opposed to the field, and to this day light-skinned black people are seen as more favorable than dark skinned both in the white and the black community and so this idea of "more whitness" absolutely HAS penetrated other cultures. Asian people often bleach their skin and have surgery on their eye lids to appear more white. Indian people who rejected their native culture refer to themselves as "Anglo Indians" and use European names and customs to set themsleves apart, and in many instances above, their "still-Indian Indian" countrymen.
In conclusion, though my guess would be that your hearat is so hardenned on this issue that anything I type here will not sway you, your ideas are all unfactual. I pity your wife and, God forbid, any children you might have, that you view them as somehow watering down or trying to destroy your perfect whiteness. May God forgive your bigotry and soften your heart to repentance.
I'm sorry, but when Piper talks and sits there he always reminds me of a pious scared mouse. I always have a hard time listening to this guy. He makes me feel like an impotent Christian, so I turn him off.
Jesus would probably do the same thing to you then!
Mabe you are an impotent Christian that's why...repent!
LOL that's a perfect descriptor of piper!!
I like that piper sees all people as equally valuable and made in God's image. But the CRT is a bridge too far if he has bought into it.
I am White, I didn't plan it. I did choose to get educated, did you? I try (not always successful ) to accept my mistakes and move on, not Blaming others, do you?
A black christian man has the same power a white Christian man has Romans 8. Trying to make this about equal outcomes and based on identity being first and foremost about skin color and not Christ, is not biblical. Mark 4:20.
I think Chase has misunderstood the discussion.
Poor Chase! He missed all the good points.
I agree
@@HearGodsWord
What he probably didn't miss is critical race theory's marxist roots.
For a Q&A titled "Race and the Christian", it's a shame that they almost exclusively focused on the racial blunders of white people. Listening to them, one might conclude that "Western Whites" are the only people on the planet beset with racism, and that racism from non-whites doesn't affect the Church. Their refusal to deal with the full spectrum of racism that plague churches in the USA is both peculiar and glaring. One wonders what would motivate this willful blindness.
They should have either changed the title to "White racism and the Christian in the USA" (which is what the Q&A is really about) or they should have equally rebuked all races for their particular implementation(s) of both racism and reverse-racism.
Could it be that the disconnect between the title and the discussion was brought on by the fact that it's politically incorrect to talk about "reverse-racism"? If so, that doesn't speak very highly of the integrity of the speakers.
Something to think about.
I'm sure other forums have, can, will address other aspects of the multi-faceted, complex problem of racism.
Tim Foster How would Christ respond to your comment?
cognitive dissonance your dealing with your afraid of equality, you think equality is oppression, and again if equality was not the new law of jesus you as white person would never ever have been given the gospel but would only would have been given to the jews.
Tim Fost
You have completely missed the point of this discussion.
Love Piper. Scary to see the CRT creeping in this early though.
Tim Keller on race? Bwwhaaaaa!
Piper is COMPLETELY wrong in trying to infer that Moses was "WHITE"! There is other reason to think of Moses as looking "different" than Tzipora, other than holding on to racist motifs like the movies "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" & "EXODUS GODS & KINGS". The Biblical record actually leans to the side of Moses looking more like an African (Egyptian). Forget the "shades" of their skin! The bottom line is that you cannot call Moses & Tzipora's marriage an interracial marriage unless you are holding on to some kind of fictional narrative, it is definitely not from the Biblical narrative. Furthermore the curse of "leprosy" needs to be further investigated by these theologians!
+bnpanera
Kinda yes, kinda no.
Aaron and Miriam's complaint in Numbers 12 isn't talking about Moses' marriage to Zippora the (brown-skinned) Midianite. It's about his previous marriage to a (black-skinned) Ethiopian woman.
- Some people try to conflate the two, but Cush (ie, Ethiopia) and Midian are *not* the same place, and never have been. Nor have their peoples been of the same ancestry. Midianites are Semetic descendants of Abraham (Gen 25:2), while Ethiopians are descendants of Ham (Gen 10:6). That Ethiopian's skin color differs from Jews is evident from Jeremiah 13:23
- Josephus, in Antiquities of the Jews, writes about how Moses married an Ethiopian princess while he was still in Egypt, before he fled Pharaoh to go to Midian. The Bible doesn't mention this episode, but there is no reason to believe it is not true.
However, you're right on one point: Piper does flub in speaking of God's taunt when he references Miriam's white (leprous) skin. If anything, God would have said "Miriam - You want BROWN .. HERE!" and struck Miriam with a brown disease, not a white disease.
Because Miriam wasn't kvetching about the Ethiopian woman not being white - if anything, it was about either the Ethiopian woman being black, and/or that he married a descendant of Ham, and not someone ethnically related to Abraham.
Egyptians were not African, they where distinctly European.
Not just wrong; dead wrong.
LOL so those black mummies are not real?... funny! Europe is black thats why they call southern Europe the iberian penninsula.. websters dictionary from the 1800s states were the first european peoples who were swarthy.. meaning black.
Iberian peninsula grimaldi man, swarthy peoples if you dont believe me ask an educated intellectual white person.
Two thoughts: The problem here is why are there two white theologians answering questions and a black theologian moderating? Hmmm... maybe have a black theologian on as well? Second, I did love Dr Piper's comment about how humbling ourselves and NOT wanting power DOES need to be preached, and yet culture/racial majority people have to be realize that they DO have hte power, whether they like it or not, and they have to find the way to share it, throw it off, etc for hte good of his brothers and sisters.
Power and hierarchy is an inevitable part of life. To suddenly say white people shouldn't have power is a prejudiced statement. When obviously everyone in this video sitting on stage has a form of power. You have power to influence by making a statement online as well. To say power is bad is to say life is bad because power in different forms is a necessity in life.
It's what it's used for, not the thing itself that matters.
Ultimately power is what marxism is obsessed with. Christianity isn't that obsessed with it. When it's obedience to authority (even to slave masters) that paul was promoting. The kingdom of heaven isn't like the kingdom of earth, that's why Christianity grew in the Roman empire, because slaves were actually influencing slave masters by their faith!
I’m somewhat confused by his example of the “Scientific study” about the reviews for black professors. How in the hell is something like that even remotely quantified and studied scientifically. I think these conversations are good to have and long over due. There are obviously countless ways for white church leaders to improve in their understanding, I just get extremely skeptical when I start hearing BS examples that are supposed to prove something.
I agree with Voddie Baucham on this issue far more than piper. Keller is a marxist through and through.
There is only one race. There are many cultures. Bicultural not biracial.
"You can tweet my books out of existence..."
Seriously? I'm out. I'm looking for intellectual honesty.
Such nonsense. Keller and Piper stray so far from consulting biblical truth on this issue. This is sad, because they are both solid on so many other issues.
And holy cow, that moderator has zero interest in anything scriptural unless he can twist it to support his personal agenda.
A cow is not holy...GOD is holy and HIS name is holy...do not take the name of GOD in vain please...
So disappointed that Piper and Keller have jumped on the bandwagon of white and systemic guilt. Show me from the Bible.
SAME
As an Asian American, why can't African Americans understand that this country is a white dominated country. If this country was 70÷ black, I would accept that and move on. Dr. Keller says things that seem wise from the worldly perspective but are not biblical sometimes. Where in the Bible say that Jews must not marry only Jews? God sees us as human race. If we want changes or somehow guilt, look at native Americans! They still live in uninhabitable reservations! Why is white and black an issue? If tall men dominate basketball, is it unfair and we should limit basketball to be certain percentage to be certain height or even color? What does color have anything to do with Christianity. Satan will always conflate political and social agenda with our purpose in life which is to glorify God and spread the Good News! I believe Dr. Piper worded it perfectly that Christians should be seeking serventhood not trying to be power hungry! To be honest, yes I was in many situations where I was the only Asian. But that has nothing to do with wanting power over the majority. Again if you are a true Christian, you should not feel powerless bc of your color bc our strength comes from the Lord not our color.
Tim McGuire so what are you trying to say exactly? I don't think you even know... the context for the 'lost sheep' was to test the faith of the woman! So did Jesus not grant her wish? Also who said 'All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:'? It was Jesus. Before you condemn others, first look at yourself to see if you really understand and be humbled by His grace! We did not deserve to be saved, but He saved us. Your comment come across as spoiled kid who needs to be treated well bc he thinks he deserves it. Humble yourself and have the fear of the Lord in you. Only then you will understand his love and mercy. Btw the way you used the word 'Asians' is affensive! Just read what you wrote! - just replace it with white and you will realize how immature you sound.
Forget it. You obviously have poor reading comprehension. Now I know why you don't understand the bible at all. You must be an SJW as your ad hominem attack shows your immaturity.
Tim McGuire - When you lose an argument justn resort to finger pointing lol! But keep reading the Bible and have the word change you.
I think that anyone that read this thread could clearly see that you lost. In my first paragraph I expressed admiration and gratitude. How is that unchristian? I explained my views. You got a chip and the imaginary notion that you somehow understand the bible better than me. And if you are speaking of the woman to whom Jesus said, "It is not meet to give the children's bread to the dogs" and she said, Yes but even the DOGS get the crumbs from the master's table". It was because she RECOGNIZED HER PLACE. She admitted she was a dog She admitted she was not of the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore had no covenant right to ask him for anything as he was not sent to her....kind of like you so thank you for bringing that up.'
Tim McGuire - I hope that one day God will open the eyes of your heart. We all fall short of the glory of God. And yet you just accused your brother as a dog? This tells the sick, twisted interpretation you have about the Word of God! No one is righteous not even one. We all are saved through grace not bc of your ethnicity. Hope that one day that you believe Jesus died for your sins.
This is gross and these guys are ideologues to the enth degree.....This is not biblical
I can't believe I felt for this nonsense 9 years ago.
Nothing in this discussion was nonsense.
These guys have completely lost their minds.