It is a great question what you ask! I faced with this issue on my setup as well, probably not on the FMS level but on other equipment. Although the original system has some charm it will block you in terms of navigability in today's world. If I would be me I would also transition to a more modern FMS solution. As you correctly said, many of these aircraft were retrofitted with newer FMS and PFDs to keep them flying longer. Looking forward to see more of this in the future!!
I just feel the old INS isn't as practical as a more modern FMC, obviously because it's an older system. I'm glad you agree with me on the transition to a more modern set up. Just makes things that little bit easier, and yes of course, many airlines retrofitted their classic airliner fleet with more modern equipment for practicality sake. Thank you so much for your support, also looking forward to seeing more of your setup! 😃
The INS vs IRS. INS uses a conventional mechanical gyro whereas the IRS has a ring laser gyro. Which is the device you have. It’s for aligning the gyros before a flight. The FMS you’re referring to is actually the CDU which is an interface for navigational input. Control display unit. Keep the INS it’s basically similar to the modern IRS.
The Civ-A is an awesome device and very pioneering. Works great for short hops but for longer huals can be a pain. The sim I am working on and the one pending delivery here in the states will be using the LTN which came right after the Civ-A. We used it for World Flight this year and worked well. Our pending sim is a 747-300 former JAL aircraft. It is arriving with FMC's installed but we will be retro fitting it back to LTN's.
What a fantastic project for you. I'm so glad to hear of more people restoring these classic airliner cockpits, preserving them for generations to come. I love it!
BA retro-fitted Sperry FMS systems (same as they had on the 757 and 767) to 26 747 Classics, 1983-ish I believe, so perfectly fine to have them in your sim. It looks like they were less capable than the 747-400 systems, they were of course a few years older. If your sim will be open to the public you need to install the most robust units you can find or things WILL get broken - so cheapest may not be the best. Real aircraft parts are a lot stronger than replica units built for home sims. As mentioned earlier a lot also depends on what software you plan to use. Good luck with this project, will certainly follow your progress.
That's exactly the info I needed - I got told by an ex BA 747 engineer that they used -400 FMC systems. Don't know what he was on about. Agreed on using real aircraft parts over replicas. Like I said in the video toward the end, I want to use as many real parts as possible for the very reason you said - they're more robust, especially considering we're going to open the sim to the public. Thank you so much for following, it means a lot. I'm by no means an expert, just a humble Pa28 pilot, so external info and knowledge is greatly appreciated.
He may well be right on that, BA flew the -100s up to 1998 and the -200s stayed on into the 2000s, so it's possible that over the course of 20 years they had a further upgrade and may have ultimately had comparable systems to the -400. What interested me was that they put the Sperry boxes in so early in 1983. The aim was to get a 1% fuel saving mainly due to autothrottle. I'm also not an expert. I have a few happy hours logged on the PA28 back in the 80s and 90s!
@@ClassicJetPanels That's a good thought actually, I didn't realise they operated the -100s for such a long time. I know they operated the -200s well into the 00s though. My father was a regular 747-200 passenger seeing as he worked in lower Manhattan, NYC in the late 90s and early 00s, so he was jetting between Heathrow and JFK weekly. He was also lucky enough to fly Concorde regularly - I was too young to join him sadly.
That's exactly what I am going to do. I was working on the flight deck yesterday and reconfigured the pedestal to include the INS, and placed the FMC on the captains side. Things are beginning to come together very nicely indeed. Thank you so much for watching!
@@studentpilot284 Thank you very much. Wow, that's amazing! Whats the 777 like to fly? Yes, I'd be honoured to have you try out the simulator when complete!
@@studentpilot284 I bet, I used to fly the CaptainSim version on FSX many years ago. Obviously not the same as in real life, but enjoyed it regardless. Thanks for staying tuned, I really appreciate it!
In reference to Pinal they are just a storage facility. Many of the classics located there are still owned by the respective airlines. We have tried several times inquiring about parts for our project and other friends classic projects only to be directed to the airlines that own the planes. I can dig up what airlines they are so you can try to contact them as well.
There will be some "cheap" FMCs soon from WinWing in brown. They recently announced a lot of stuff for the 737, and they seem to be smart enough to just paint some FMCs brown to sell them to Boeing widebody people. They will be around 140€, so maybe give those a try and see if you are happy with FMC, before buying them for 1000€ from Opencockpits.
I'd say keep one INS in the centre (Its full name is Delco carousel IV-A) and 2 FMCs for the captain and first officer respectively. I recall seeing one aircraft with that configuration rather than 3 FMCs.
That's exactly what I'm going to do. I don't think I've ever seen an example of a 747 classic with 3 FMCs. I'll keep the INS in the centre pedestal, and 2 FMCs for the pilots, like you say!
@@CaptJames Thank you so much. It's a big old project, but with my dedicated team and the community (you guys), anything is possible. Thank you so much and stay tuned for more!
I would go FMS. Because pretty much that's what the real ones were upgraded with. However it would be an aftermarket system like the CMA-900 UNS-1B or HT9100, something like that. Not a 747-400 unit.
That's very good to know, thank you for sending over that info. The ex BA 747 engineer I know/knew did say that they would retro fit the -200s with -400 computers from Boeing themselves, but it's been over 30 years since he last worked so perhaps he has forgotten exactly what computers were used 🤣
I guess it's possible that that happened on some units, I only saw the retrofits on a couple of airplanes. Not a big 747 guy myself (I'm a McDD guy :D) so do double check this.
@@Josh.Davidson Its very possible they did a bit of both, or like I said, he just forgot :P. Fantastic, I too love McDD. I'm mad for any classic airliners. Would love to do a VC10 as the next project - one step at a time though 😂
That's amazing, how lucky your boss is. There's no finer feeling. I've sat in the cockpit of a 747-200, 747-300 and 747-400. All incredible experiences!
The cockpit is in Essex just north of Epping, though I'm a Hertfordshire resident myself. You'd be more than welcome to come and visit, of course! I can give you my e-mail if you're sure. Long term plans are to get this up and running as a simulator experience business. Only thing is, I don't have any hangar space or a venue to run the business from - I need to get that sorted ASAP.
Thank you very much for the suggestion. Like I said in the video, I'm leaning more toward the FMC. We will be running the simulator on the Felis 747-200 for X-plane 12. I'm in a discord with Felis himself, so he is supporting the three 747 classic builders with software (two others are also doing 747 classics). I don't think there are any other pieces of software to use sadly. We of course had the CLS 747, but that is very old and outdated and only replicates something like 40% of the systems, so that's an immediate no. Just Flight were bringing out a 747-100/200, but they cancelled - though they are supposed to be developing it for FS2020, but I've seen no updates on that in at least 2 years. PMDG are developing a 747-100 for FS2024 at this very moment, but that's possibly going to take a good year or so to be released, and then it'll be another 6 months for users to report bugs - so Felis it is!
Wow, since I made this video earlier today, our support has surged. 11 new subscribers in just a couple of hours! Thank you so much everybody 😃
It is a great question what you ask!
I faced with this issue on my setup as well, probably not on the FMS level but on other equipment.
Although the original system has some charm it will block you in terms of navigability in today's world.
If I would be me I would also transition to a more modern FMS solution. As you correctly said, many of these aircraft were retrofitted with newer FMS and PFDs to keep them flying longer.
Looking forward to see more of this in the future!!
I just feel the old INS isn't as practical as a more modern FMC, obviously because it's an older system. I'm glad you agree with me on the transition to a more modern set up. Just makes things that little bit easier, and yes of course, many airlines retrofitted their classic airliner fleet with more modern equipment for practicality sake. Thank you so much for your support, also looking forward to seeing more of your setup! 😃
The INS vs IRS. INS uses a conventional mechanical gyro whereas the IRS has a ring laser gyro. Which is the device you have. It’s for aligning the gyros before a flight. The FMS you’re referring to is actually the CDU which is an interface for navigational input. Control display unit. Keep the INS it’s basically similar to the modern IRS.
Thank you very much for the suggestion and information. We will keep one INS in the centre pedestal, and two FMCs the the centre forward panel 😃
The Civ-A is an awesome device and very pioneering. Works great for short hops but for longer huals can be a pain. The sim I am working on and the one pending delivery here in the states will be using the LTN which came right after the Civ-A. We used it for World Flight this year and worked well. Our pending sim is a 747-300 former JAL aircraft. It is arriving with FMC's installed but we will be retro fitting it back to LTN's.
What a fantastic project for you. I'm so glad to hear of more people restoring these classic airliner cockpits, preserving them for generations to come. I love it!
BA retro-fitted Sperry FMS systems (same as they had on the 757 and 767) to 26 747 Classics, 1983-ish I believe, so perfectly fine to have them in your sim. It looks like they were less capable than the 747-400 systems, they were of course a few years older. If your sim will be open to the public you need to install the most robust units you can find or things WILL get broken - so cheapest may not be the best. Real aircraft parts are a lot stronger than replica units built for home sims. As mentioned earlier a lot also depends on what software you plan to use. Good luck with this project, will certainly follow your progress.
That's exactly the info I needed - I got told by an ex BA 747 engineer that they used -400 FMC systems. Don't know what he was on about. Agreed on using real aircraft parts over replicas. Like I said in the video toward the end, I want to use as many real parts as possible for the very reason you said - they're more robust, especially considering we're going to open the sim to the public. Thank you so much for following, it means a lot. I'm by no means an expert, just a humble Pa28 pilot, so external info and knowledge is greatly appreciated.
He may well be right on that, BA flew the -100s up to 1998 and the -200s stayed on into the 2000s, so it's possible that over the course of 20 years they had a further upgrade and may have ultimately had comparable systems to the -400. What interested me was that they put the Sperry boxes in so early in 1983. The aim was to get a 1% fuel saving mainly due to autothrottle. I'm also not an expert. I have a few happy hours logged on the PA28 back in the 80s and 90s!
@@ClassicJetPanels That's a good thought actually, I didn't realise they operated the -100s for such a long time. I know they operated the -200s well into the 00s though. My father was a regular 747-200 passenger seeing as he worked in lower Manhattan, NYC in the late 90s and early 00s, so he was jetting between Heathrow and JFK weekly. He was also lucky enough to fly Concorde regularly - I was too young to join him sadly.
Go with retrofitted FMC but keep one ins in the pedestal. That’s what it was with many operators who retrofitted it.
That's exactly what I am going to do. I was working on the flight deck yesterday and reconfigured the pedestal to include the INS, and placed the FMC on the captains side. Things are beginning to come together very nicely indeed. Thank you so much for watching!
@ just saw the new part! Nice, keep it up. I fly the 777 for a living but would love to try out your sim when it’s done. Best regards
@@studentpilot284 Thank you very much. Wow, that's amazing! Whats the 777 like to fly? Yes, I'd be honoured to have you try out the simulator when complete!
@@Boeing-Project it’s definitely a great aircraft to fly. I bet in many ways easier than the 747CL. Thanks, I keep an eye on the project.
@@studentpilot284 I bet, I used to fly the CaptainSim version on FSX many years ago. Obviously not the same as in real life, but enjoyed it regardless. Thanks for staying tuned, I really appreciate it!
In reference to Pinal they are just a storage facility. Many of the classics located there are still owned by the respective airlines. We have tried several times inquiring about parts for our project and other friends classic projects only to be directed to the airlines that own the planes. I can dig up what airlines they are so you can try to contact them as well.
That's exactly what I presumed was the case. Its the only thing that makes sense to me considering how standoff-ish they are about parts.
There will be some "cheap" FMCs soon from WinWing in brown. They recently announced a lot of stuff for the 737, and they seem to be smart enough to just paint some FMCs brown to sell them to Boeing widebody people. They will be around 140€, so maybe give those a try and see if you are happy with FMC, before buying them for 1000€ from Opencockpits.
Excellent - thank you so much for that info. I'll definitely look into that!
Go, go, go.......
I'd say keep one INS in the centre (Its full name is Delco carousel IV-A) and 2 FMCs for the captain and first officer respectively. I recall seeing one aircraft with that configuration rather than 3 FMCs.
That's exactly what I'm going to do. I don't think I've ever seen an example of a 747 classic with 3 FMCs. I'll keep the INS in the centre pedestal, and 2 FMCs for the pilots, like you say!
Definitely go for the FMC option.
That seems to be the favourite, so that's what I'm going to do! Thank you so much for your support 😃
@Boeing-Project no worries- Love your work! I stumbled across your videos and think they're great. Good luck with it all 👌🏻
@@CaptJames Thank you so much. It's a big old project, but with my dedicated team and the community (you guys), anything is possible. Thank you so much and stay tuned for more!
I would go FMS. Because pretty much that's what the real ones were upgraded with. However it would be an aftermarket system like the CMA-900 UNS-1B or HT9100, something like that. Not a 747-400 unit.
That's very good to know, thank you for sending over that info. The ex BA 747 engineer I know/knew did say that they would retro fit the -200s with -400 computers from Boeing themselves, but it's been over 30 years since he last worked so perhaps he has forgotten exactly what computers were used 🤣
I guess it's possible that that happened on some units, I only saw the retrofits on a couple of airplanes. Not a big 747 guy myself (I'm a McDD guy :D) so do double check this.
@@Josh.Davidson Its very possible they did a bit of both, or like I said, he just forgot :P. Fantastic, I too love McDD. I'm mad for any classic airliners. Would love to do a VC10 as the next project - one step at a time though 😂
My boss got to sit in a 747-200 cockpit in the 1980s because his sister was a purser for Lufthansa at the time!
That's amazing, how lucky your boss is. There's no finer feeling. I've sat in the cockpit of a 747-200, 747-300 and 747-400. All incredible experiences!
Where will the simulator be based when in operation?
We are not sure at the moment. Probably at the airfield its currently stored at - I will make an update on this at some point.
Where in the UK are you? I'd love to visit if that's possible? What are your plans long term?
The cockpit is in Essex just north of Epping, though I'm a Hertfordshire resident myself. You'd be more than welcome to come and visit, of course! I can give you my e-mail if you're sure. Long term plans are to get this up and running as a simulator experience business. Only thing is, I don't have any hangar space or a venue to run the business from - I need to get that sorted ASAP.
I would go with the 747-400 fmc tbh. Also what software are you planning to run this simulator on?
Thank you very much for the suggestion. Like I said in the video, I'm leaning more toward the FMC. We will be running the simulator on the Felis 747-200 for X-plane 12. I'm in a discord with Felis himself, so he is supporting the three 747 classic builders with software (two others are also doing 747 classics). I don't think there are any other pieces of software to use sadly. We of course had the CLS 747, but that is very old and outdated and only replicates something like 40% of the systems, so that's an immediate no. Just Flight were bringing out a 747-100/200, but they cancelled - though they are supposed to be developing it for FS2020, but I've seen no updates on that in at least 2 years. PMDG are developing a 747-100 for FS2024 at this very moment, but that's possibly going to take a good year or so to be released, and then it'll be another 6 months for users to report bugs - so Felis it is!