One thing I’ve learned from this channel: if you just apply a little bit of knowledge about thermodynamics you can sniff out an enormous swathe of scams and bullshit.
I gotta admit, they had me with that video. Got myself hyped on ceramic coating every part of the bike from piston to chamber to exhaust to the tank, the valves, the bloody thing top to bottom inside out. Glad i did more research and found this channel! Science really is magic if you dont understand it and everyone loves a good magic trick.
When you're measuring temperature with an IR thermometer you really need to be aware that different materials have different emissivities. That bare piston they had seemed to have a coating on the bottom, but not on the top. Bare aluminium has a lower emissivity than whatever that bottom coating is or their ceramic coatings, so the bare top part would measure lower, but that's not really the temperature of the surface. You can actually see on the top part of the display of their fancy adjustable IR gun it says 'e 0.95' which I'm guessing is just the default setting.
I have a feeling that the temp. gun got switched into degrees F for the bottom of the bare piston, the displayed value would have been close. Or as Matt suggested, they could have done this intentionally to make their product look better. Never discount the depths a marketing department will sink into in order to try and sell a product! Note that when Matt did the same test, his values were fairy close between top and bottom, well within what I would expect for the accuracy of the gun on a metal. Most of us know those guns can be wildly inaccurate on metals due to a number of reasons. A thermocouple would have been best and any company trying to sell you on a product like the ceramic coatings should have known this. You could also use two thermocouples, one on each side to demonstrate (live) that the bottom was cooler than the top. I know marketing too, and that's what I would have done to demonstrate how superior my coating was (if I was a cheat).
Pre ignition is compared to hitting the piston with a hammer and now they want to pare that to curamic pistons witch will reflect more heat most likely cause detonation and go for double wammy with curamic debris flying threw the cylinder that's a great idea for shortening the life of an engine.
Like when you watched Crocodile Dundee for the first time. You know that those Aboriginal fellas would have bummed then eaten young Mick upon finding him.
Thanks! I am an ME, ran across that coating shite...I do use coatings for some surfaces, nicasil plain bearing faces and aluminium liners. Even played with teflon stuff on piston skirts. I am forever catching crap for dispelling "urban legends". Keep on deflecting the poo! (My interest is not with diesels, but petrol engines mostly.)
Haha! To take it a bit further...we have done top ring groove, piston pin bore and skirt coating using Mahle's grafal. Kind of different approach to the piston top coatings, but supports your thoughts. (That is where we see wear/erosion issues, some cold start related). We like endurance engines.
Eyup,Northern.I wish Id seen your vids earlier,Ive already got ceramic coated pistons AND Evans coolant.Joking apart,Im quite gullable.I would of seen their video and been taken in.
Matt, I dont know how the ceramic coating works but it really does work. Back when i was young , we used the ceramicly coated pistons on race engines when we fed Nitrous Oxide into the engines. The pistons often melted and blew a hole in the top deck if the mixture got to lean for any reason. When we started getting the pistons coated it saved a LOT of pistons for us at least. I doubt it would make any difference at normal use.
Yeah. Thats my point. That was on special applications, NOT normal use. The temperatures they got in the video i also agree there has to be some shit they did there
I knew it from the start that coating your piston with shit it will fuck up other things even though I'm not a mechanic. Manufacturers build their engines in a specific way and if you change something like this, the heat will find other ways and that would be the cylinder walls and valves. Good way to destroy an engine. In order to keep the temperature low in the combustion champer you have to have metal that sucks up the heat FAST. I would really like to know how hot it will be in a combustion chamber coated everywhere possible with this ceramic compared to a standard engine and how hot the exhaust gases will get.
You can’t even see the red laser dot on the top of the piston they’re measuring. Was probably the temperature of the steel table top they measured, which conducted the heat off the bottom of the piston. Thanks matt. As someone who studied Mechanical Engineering this video has been killing me ever since I first saw it the other week. And it makes me so mad and frustrated to watch bullshit, which some people will believe.
My grandaughter has just been watching this video with myself...her new favourite word is 'CUN7' and is now walking around the living round singing 'CUN7, CUN7, CUN7...'......Not sure whether she has read that word before but now 'Uncle Matt' is in the 'bad books' and is going to be sent to the naughty step....
Not to mention the fucking pistons were also even different. The plain/uncoated piston was different from the two coated ones. Have a squint round the bottom of the skirt and check out the rings/lands. The whole thing is laughable as any sort of reasonable demonstration. Let alone an actual serious test. To even mention the word scientific would leave me with something of a bad taste in my mouth. It was a fucking piss take. Dishonest snake oil peddling wankers like this really chaff my bollocks.
Thinking this from carbon buildup. Carbon is quite good thermal insulator, but if there is enough of it on top of the piston, you get glowing carbon and that equals knocking. If the piston isn't able to sink in and transfer enough heat from its top surface, hot spots will appear. On the other hand, it is beneficial to have higher combustion temperatures for higher efficiency (more power through more expansion) and get rid of the excess heat energy through exhaust. (Que in water injection argument here) But yes, the greasy hair dummy trying to sell their product isn't doing really a stellar job among those with clue.
carbonated carbon ceramic copper grease sprinkled with the finest australian snake oil. Butter a bisquit and apply directly to the brake material for superior brake breaking performance.
a friend of mine used to sandblast the top of his piston to get a bigger carbon layer build up to stop the heat from going thru the piston.Never gave it much thought back then when he showed me. But good to know that he is just wasting his time and i am not poorly maintaining my engine because im not doing that(as he said) I wonder how many bullshit thing there are that people do to there engine just because they think it is helping but in real world it just dont work or is actual harming the engine. .
Yeh, don't add hot spots, surface area, polished combustion is always better, unless you are needing a coat of oil for friction, cylinder walls, ally is a freakin match in small enuff quantities, think thermite.
Could the ceramic coating in the source video be SCREWING up their Temp Measurement? If it did this would explain their 'observation', either that or they did something stupid.
First thing I noticed is the way they were heating it up and thought oh Matt is going to say something about that of course it would be hotter if you hold the torch closer.
Ok, we don't need to protect the piston (unless running lean causing the piston to melt), the piston is designed to heatsink into the oil and water jacket (as per your diagram with the piston rings), and the heat is contained in the cylinder. That doesn't totally add up to me. If the heat is contained in the cylinder by a ceramic coating, then that means EGT's are higher yes? So more of the stress is on valves. Yes there will be more load on the water jacket, but I think I hear more of people talking about oil overheating on racetracks than coolant. I assume most or a large part of oil heat is from the piston squirters?
"then that means EGT's are higher yes?" - Yes. "but I think I hear more of people talking about oil overheating on racetracks than coolant" Yes - but this is due to inadequte oil cooling and/or poor parts matching and understanding. Engines are designed with the piston soaking a lot of the heat way. If this heat is maintained in the cylinder then other parts - including the valves and the head suffer. Oil feeds to the head is usually the problem with overheating oil systems. The main reason - no positive pump back to the bottom end. The oil will dwell in the head and this is where the exhaust ports are. If you look at a cooked engine - the head is where the actions at.
I'm gonna screw this up but you have latent, substantial, indirect, direct, radiant, reflective, saturated and many other terms of heat measurement I am sure. That being said a lot of these coatings actually work very well in their applications.
i somewhat disagree with some of your points. the main issue with heat in the combustion chamber (apart from melting, but then you're f*cked anyway) is that it heats the air fuel mixture before compression and causes detonation. in the power stroke you actually want as much heat as possible, since the increase in temperature increases the pressure and that pressure in the powerstroke actually powers your engine. in a engine where the working gas would be magically insulated from everything else would be amazingly efficient (of curse not 100% because of the compression ratio and the residual heat going out the exhaust). also there would be little chance of preignition or detonation, because your working gas begins the compression stroke at room temperature. so the main problem is heat flowing into the air-fuel mixture before or during compression. on a ceramic coated piston, the top of the piston might be very hot at the end of the exhaust stroke, but because of its poor heat conductivity and low thermal mass, the first whiff of fresh mixture will cool it right down, and the total heat flowing into the mixture before compression will be smaller thus making everything more better! but there are some caveats: as you correctly point out, this will leave more heat in the exhaust gas and might damage the exhaust valve or increase its temperature to where the positive effects are negated. the main issue i take with this video is the "narrative" (i dont know what else to call it) that you constantly want to take as much heat out of the working gas as possible, because that only applies before the ignition and after the intake stroke.
"is that it heats the air fuel mixture before compression and causes detonation." - Yes very true. "in the power stroke you actually want as much heat as possible, since the increase in temperature increases the pressure and that pressure in the powerstroke actually powers your engine." - Yes and no. What you require is the largest delta. You have to remember that this is a dynamic system, and a cycle. The initial intake temp and then the following strokes for any engine that runs under normal condition is based on that system. So from a thermodynamic point of view this is a system that for all intents and purposes is in equilibrium. The rate out heat out put and heat liberated is governed by the deisgn of that system. Thermal saturation is the problem here - Just adding an insulating layer to a piston means that the other component (head, valves and cylinder) are exposed to higher temperatures. This causes an inbalance. So during your intake stroke the intake has the same cooling effect as from a non coated application, however the energy in the form of heat is higher. This means that the intake charge, pre compression is hotter. Compressing this mixture can lead to detonation but if it doesn't the whole system is compounded. Without modification to the whole system these coatings are (as I say in the video) a bad idea. This is not to say they can't be designed into an engine.
i agree with most of this response, exept "Just adding an insulating layer to a piston means that the other component (head, valves and cylinder) are exposed to higher temperatures." is not nessesarily detremental. in general it is a good thing to get rid of residual heat by exhausting it instead of dumping it through the cooling system. if your exhaust gasses are hotter, due to insulation on the piston, this will happen. the question then is just if the hotter exhaust valve is worth it. by the way, it is really great to be able to have factual discussions in your comment section. just not for you because it will keep me posing annoying comments.
Interesting discussion, this is what adults can do without censorship. So a ceramic treated piston crown will logically raise post combustion temperatures and lead to higher temperatures on the surface of the head and valves during that combustion. The exhaust valves would seem to be at risk but perhaps a head is easier to cool than a piston. The discussion does highlight that coating the piston crowns might be detrimental to other parts, I had not anticipated that downside.
I'm just curious, what if you had a small area on the piston that was getting very hot, hotter than the rest of the piston causing preignition. Could the coating help dissipate the heat evenly reducing the super hot spot to the whole piston being hotter overall but not to the extremes? So you could bandaid a bad combustion chamber with bad hot spots on the piston? Or even in the combustion chamber?
Well... should do "strategic" copper inserted into the piston to transfer the heat faster? Or mine is a dumb idea of the 6 in the morning after 12hrs of work...
IR Pyrometers are sensitive to radiation. Different surfaces have different emission factors. A coated surface sure has a different t Emission than a “plain” aluminium one. Thats why this type of measuring temperature is not correct same as the coating of the pistons in the first place. They don’t understand the basics of the cooling of the piston, thanks for your educational video(s). I’m sure the valves and the head will suffer in this config.
"IR Pyrometers are sensitive to radiation. Different surfaces have different emission factors. A coated surface sure has a different t Emission than a “plain” aluminium one. " It's called emissivity, and I say that in the video...
I think Matt's sour grape is that they obviously faked the temperature readings. Granted this can be a valid option on a custom engine, but claiming that this, as a general service, is something you would want to have done on to your pistons on an otherwise stock engine is a hoax.
Say, could you make an engine that has a really high normal operating temperature, high enough so that water in he cooling system is constantly boiling, and run a turbo off the water vapour circulating through the cooling lines? I think I remember reading about gerries using something like this in their experimental prop plane that was designed to break some speed record.
It's annoying the piss out of me that I can't pick where that laughing clip/meme you use come from... I've seen it in a film at some point but I'm buggered if I can remember which one... help a bloke sleep at night will ya Matt? Tell me which movie it's from? 😂 Great video BTW... 😬
Lets imagine for a moment that the coolin system can handle the massive heat build up in your combustion chamber. Now, you are making your piston work a LOT cooler, doesnt that means that you should check and re-do your clearenses of the piston, the piston pin and the conecting rod? the clearense will be bigger in a stock engine due to heat and i dont want to rev a bike to 12000rpm in that case. Another point matt, the coating will not crack and degrade over time? A lot of combustion events over ceramic... i dont know if thats a smart idea. If it cracks or wear off, it will cause a heat point in your piston, and the residue will be caught by your rings and scratch your cilinder walls. Is my logic OK? Thx Matt Damon!
Great video Matt, especially the second part where you pointed out the temperature difference those fuckers where trying to pedal. How ever you lost me trying to explain why piston is a better radiator of heat then getting rid of it out the exhaust port. I don't understand why its better to let piston soak the heat and transfer it to the cylinder vs letting the cylinder/head/exhaust deal with it. Wouldn't it mean that sense the piston doesn;t have to have an added stress of caring heat it can be made lighter? Just asking ,not trying to be a smart ass.
The piston is helping with cooling by transfering some heat to the engine oil. If you remove this cooling the exhaust would be hotter and maybe damage the valves or something else. The surface of the piston would also be hotter, because the heat can not get away, leading to detonation and fat fuel mixture to try to cool the piston.
I wish you would keep these things on the hush hush, cos if the terrorists find out they will be driving cars around the cities with ceramic pistons and evans coolant. And that will be all bad for us.
Some not really technical info on piston coatings from Wiseco blog.wiseco.com/enhancing-your-pistons-with-wisecos-unique-piston-coatings No mention of ceramic to prevent heat from soaking into the piston... Not sure if they are using a normal anodize process, or a cold, hard process, or one of the other processes to anodize their pistons. Not sure if they have a real technical paper on each coating, but it might be available on request.
"ArmorGlide and ArmorFit" - they are basically a screen printed 'sticker' of PTFE. "ArmorX" - "An anodic coating is basically an oxide film that is applied to the aluminum metal through electrolysis." or anodising LOL
The Workshop That would be the marketing department trying to make it seem special. Probably just a dyed regular anodized layer and not even cold, hard anodize.
I completely agree with the fact that their demonstration is shit. But I have just a question for you : If cooling through piston is so important, why would Mercedes put Steel pistons in one of their last diesel engine (OM654) ? (Steel has a better thermal conductivity than ceramics, but way worse than aluminum...) I believe that if took into account at early design stage of an engine (I mean for cooling adaptation needed), a coating reducing conductivity can improve thermal efficiency by keeping heat inside the combustion chamber. For sure this coating has to be bullet proof and I would not trust ceramic exhaust coating on a piston...
Compression - diesels take a beating. Not only that but heat saturation isn't such a problem due to lower rpms. At the end of the day you're talking about diesels. This video is about petrol engines. Its a good point, but a different one.
Right, but does not mean that it is gonna be true for ever : www.cycleworld.com/2016/01/14/steel-pistons-part-1-is-steel-a-better-material-cycle-world-motorcycle-technology-feature
LOL in this article they talk about fatigue limits of aluminium - stress cracking due to the lack of radii in the corners of the windows. What the fuck does this have to do with pistons? Pistons don't fail due to UTS, that something that con-rods fail from. As far as 'true forever' this is true. But lightweight sintered steel pistons with fuck all piston skirts is also nothing to do with ceramic coatings. I do get your point, but this is a bit beyonds the scope of the video.
as i told people on my channel, if you get your info from youtube, you better be an expert on the subject before you listen to these self proclaimed subject matters experts (SME's) or you are more than likely to get bad bad info
Yep, a “bloke” in a shed some were on a depressing dark wet island knows better then all the race teams and all the companies in the world that provide this service.
This test has a flaw I see. You have different pistons in this test not all same pistons are used. Piston top of different pistons have the thicknesses from them being a different amount. Some are thicker than others. Just a observation I had to inform you about.
"You have different pistons in this test not all same pistons are used." - these aren't compared to each other, and you missed the point. Any heat that isn't transfered to the piston stays in the cylinder.
Combustion processes will always transfer the heat to piston even with having a coating to the crown. The gasses go past the rings aswell as cylinder wall heating up which transfers heat also. The way to cool down pistons is with oil squirting underneath the piston like some engines already do. A coating helps with detonation damaging reduction and helps carbon building up also. They do say it speeds the flame front aswell but that's not been proved with test results yet. Design of a piston is barrel shape the heat is needed for expansion to make it rounder and helps in sealing it better in the bore. The heat from combustion can be over 500f and no matter what coating applied the heat will equal non coated pistons same way, just a bit slower than the normal pistons though.
you are completely incorrect on how ceramics work in the combustion chamber. you coat the piston AND the head and valves, the heat goes out the exhaust. The use of ceramics have been proven time and time again. Many oems have used ceramics for over a decade.
I understand why you played so much of their video in one go but I'd be worried about copywrite claims when playing it in its entirety like that instead of clips and a link. Just saying. Dont want someone taking down your channel or dicking you over.
I like how they hold the blow torch 2" away from the bare aluminium piston, and a foot away from their coated piston. Science!
Happy to see someone else noticed as well.
LOL. The whole deal was laughably dumb. Everything was all over the shop.
Sadly, some folk will no doubt still swallow the horseshit.
One thing I’ve learned from this channel: if you just apply a little bit of knowledge about thermodynamics you can sniff out an enormous swathe of scams and bullshit.
This is the most trusted TH-cam channel , thank you so much,
RESPECT FOR YOU FROM BOTTOM OF MY HEART
I gotta admit, they had me with that video. Got myself hyped on ceramic coating every part of the bike from piston to chamber to exhaust to the tank, the valves, the bloody thing top to bottom inside out. Glad i did more research and found this channel! Science really is magic if you dont understand it and everyone loves a good magic trick.
When you're measuring temperature with an IR thermometer you really need to be aware that different materials have different emissivities. That bare piston they had seemed to have a coating on the bottom, but not on the top. Bare aluminium has a lower emissivity than whatever that bottom coating is or their ceramic coatings, so the bare top part would measure lower, but that's not really the temperature of the surface. You can actually see on the top part of the display of their fancy adjustable IR gun it says 'e 0.95' which I'm guessing is just the default setting.
Exactly what i was thinking about!
Emissivity is stored in the balls
I have a feeling that the temp. gun got switched into degrees F for the bottom of the bare piston, the displayed value would have been close. Or as Matt suggested, they could have done this intentionally to make their product look better. Never discount the depths a marketing department will sink into in order to try and sell a product! Note that when Matt did the same test, his values were fairy close between top and bottom, well within what I would expect for the accuracy of the gun on a metal. Most of us know those guns can be wildly inaccurate on metals due to a number of reasons. A thermocouple would have been best and any company trying to sell you on a product like the ceramic coatings should have known this. You could also use two thermocouples, one on each side to demonstrate (live) that the bottom was cooler than the top. I know marketing too, and that's what I would have done to demonstrate how superior my coating was (if I was a cheat).
In regards to emissivity - this is very true - but 150DegC out of spec? That's pushing it to the extreme
We used to machine the piston crown and install 385 type RTD’s (pt100). We did this on the conrods too for accelerations curves.
For such a young man you know your onions, i mean this in the nicest possible way . Keep em coming.
Pre ignition is compared to hitting the piston with a hammer and now they want to pare that to curamic pistons witch will reflect more heat most likely cause detonation and go for double wammy with curamic debris flying threw the cylinder that's a great idea for shortening the life of an engine.
Master of zoom and apprentice of sound.
Time and time again Australians are the masters of snake oils and gimmicks. If the video has a Aussie accent I immediately start doubting it.
Like when you watched Crocodile Dundee for the first time. You know that those Aboriginal fellas would have bummed then eaten young Mick upon finding him.
Roland B I've got a bridge in Sydney you can buy cheap!
Thanks! I am an ME, ran across that coating shite...I do use coatings for some surfaces, nicasil plain bearing faces and aluminium liners. Even played with teflon stuff on piston skirts. I am forever catching crap for dispelling "urban legends". Keep on deflecting the poo! (My interest is not with diesels, but petrol engines mostly.)
Haha! To take it a bit further...we have done top ring groove, piston pin bore and skirt coating using Mahle's grafal. Kind of different approach to the piston top coatings, but supports your thoughts. (That is where we see wear/erosion issues, some cold start related). We like endurance engines.
i can see this being a nightmare if a small part of the coating was to chip off, creating a small single point for the heat to go through
you mean like the space shuttle ?
Eyup,Northern.I wish Id seen your vids earlier,Ive already got ceramic coated pistons AND Evans coolant.Joking apart,Im quite gullable.I would of seen their video and been taken in.
Matt, I dont know how the ceramic coating works but it really does work.
Back when i was young , we used the ceramicly coated pistons on race engines when we fed Nitrous Oxide into the engines. The pistons often melted and blew a hole in the top deck if the mixture got to lean for any reason. When we started getting the pistons coated it saved a LOT of pistons for us at least.
I doubt it would make any difference at normal use.
But that's too much nitrous and a race engine.
Yeah. Thats my point.
That was on special applications, NOT normal use. The temperatures they got in the video i also agree there has to be some shit they did there
Engine makers run lean for emissions and mpg when they can right?
Were you burning valves quicker maybe ?
The thing the way they filmed it is that for the bare alloy piston the heating & the taking of the temperature weren't the same cut.
Thanks Matt for caring for our "viewing pleasure". Made me feel fuzzy inside. Lol
maybe an other good point to focus on next is the heat transfer from piston to wall and then to cooling system.
I knew it from the start that coating your piston with shit it will fuck up other things even though I'm not a mechanic. Manufacturers build their engines in a specific way and if you change something like this, the heat will find other ways and that would be the cylinder walls and valves. Good way to destroy an engine. In order to keep the temperature low in the combustion champer you have to have metal that sucks up the heat FAST.
I would really like to know how hot it will be in a combustion chamber coated everywhere possible with this ceramic compared to a standard engine and how hot the exhaust gases will get.
You can’t even see the red laser dot on the top of the piston they’re measuring. Was probably the temperature of the steel table top they measured, which conducted the heat off the bottom of the piston.
Thanks matt. As someone who studied Mechanical Engineering this video has been killing me ever since I first saw it the other week. And it makes me so mad and frustrated to watch bullshit, which some people will believe.
My grandaughter has just been watching this video with myself...her new favourite word is 'CUN7' and is now walking around the living round singing 'CUN7, CUN7, CUN7...'......Not sure whether she has read that word before but now 'Uncle Matt' is in the 'bad books' and is going to be sent to the naughty step....
It was a TOTALLY UNCONTROLLED test!
I think their thermometer is frogged.
Who wants to add mass to a piston?
Not to mention the fucking pistons were also even different. The plain/uncoated piston was different from the two coated ones.
Have a squint round the bottom of the skirt and check out the rings/lands.
The whole thing is laughable as any sort of reasonable demonstration. Let alone an actual serious test.
To even mention the word scientific would leave me with something of a bad taste in my mouth.
It was a fucking piss take. Dishonest snake oil peddling wankers like this really chaff my bollocks.
Thinking this from carbon buildup. Carbon is quite good thermal insulator, but if there is enough of it on top of the piston, you get glowing carbon and that equals knocking. If the piston isn't able to sink in and transfer enough heat from its top surface, hot spots will appear. On the other hand, it is beneficial to have higher combustion temperatures for higher efficiency (more power through more expansion) and get rid of the excess heat energy through exhaust. (Que in water injection argument here)
But yes, the greasy hair dummy trying to sell their product isn't doing really a stellar job among those with clue.
I want ceramic grease. I'd be buttering my whole bike like a busquit.
carbonated carbon ceramic copper grease sprinkled with the finest australian snake oil. Butter a bisquit and apply directly to the brake material for superior brake breaking performance.
a friend of mine used to sandblast the top of his piston to get a bigger carbon layer build up to stop the heat from going thru the piston.Never gave it much thought back then when he showed me. But good to know that he is just wasting his time and i am not poorly maintaining my engine because im not doing that(as he said) I wonder how many bullshit thing there are that people do to there engine just because they think it is helping but in real world it just dont work or is actual harming the engine. .
supertedogpriken if the Piston was polished wouldn't it also reflect more heat and stay cooler that way?
Yeh, don't add hot spots, surface area, polished combustion is always better, unless you are needing a coat of oil for friction, cylinder walls, ally is a freakin match in small enuff quantities, think thermite.
Could the ceramic coating in the source video be SCREWING up their Temp Measurement? If it did this would explain their 'observation', either that or they did something stupid.
Not by that much - the piston that has stupid numbers is the OEM none coated piston
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First thing I noticed is the way they were heating it up and thought oh Matt is going to say something about that of course it would be hotter if you hold the torch closer.
Ok, we don't need to protect the piston (unless running lean causing the piston to melt), the piston is designed to heatsink into the oil and water jacket (as per your diagram with the piston rings), and the heat is contained in the cylinder. That doesn't totally add up to me. If the heat is contained in the cylinder by a ceramic coating, then that means EGT's are higher yes? So more of the stress is on valves. Yes there will be more load on the water jacket, but I think I hear more of people talking about oil overheating on racetracks than coolant. I assume most or a large part of oil heat is from the piston squirters?
"then that means EGT's are higher yes?"
- Yes.
"but I think I hear more of people talking about oil overheating on racetracks than coolant"
Yes - but this is due to inadequte oil cooling and/or poor parts matching and understanding. Engines are designed with the piston soaking a lot of the heat way. If this heat is maintained in the cylinder then other parts - including the valves and the head suffer.
Oil feeds to the head is usually the problem with overheating oil systems. The main reason - no positive pump back to the bottom end. The oil will dwell in the head and this is where the exhaust ports are. If you look at a cooked engine - the head is where the actions at.
I'm gonna screw this up but you have latent, substantial, indirect, direct, radiant, reflective, saturated and many other terms of heat measurement I am sure. That being said a lot of these coatings actually work very well in their applications.
Heat only every rises, it can never sink...except in a heat sink! (See what I did there!?) :-D
i somewhat disagree with some of your points.
the main issue with heat in the combustion chamber (apart from melting, but then you're f*cked anyway) is that it heats the air fuel mixture before compression and causes detonation. in the power stroke you actually want as much heat as possible, since the increase in temperature increases the pressure and that pressure in the powerstroke actually powers your engine.
in a engine where the working gas would be magically insulated from everything else would be amazingly efficient (of curse not 100% because of the compression ratio and the residual heat going out the exhaust). also there would be little chance of preignition or detonation, because your working gas begins the compression stroke at room temperature. so the main problem is heat flowing into the air-fuel mixture before or during compression.
on a ceramic coated piston, the top of the piston might be very hot at the end of the exhaust stroke, but because of its poor heat conductivity and low thermal mass, the first whiff of fresh mixture will cool it right down, and the total heat flowing into the mixture before compression will be smaller thus making everything more better!
but there are some caveats: as you correctly point out, this will leave more heat in the exhaust gas and might damage the exhaust valve or increase its temperature to where the positive effects are negated.
the main issue i take with this video is the "narrative" (i dont know what else to call it) that you constantly want to take as much heat out of the working gas as possible, because that only applies before the ignition and after the intake stroke.
"is that it heats the air fuel mixture before compression and causes detonation."
- Yes very true.
"in the power stroke you actually want as much heat as possible, since the increase in temperature increases the pressure and that pressure in the powerstroke actually powers your engine."
- Yes and no. What you require is the largest delta. You have to remember that this is a dynamic system, and a cycle. The initial intake temp and then the following strokes for any engine that runs under normal condition is based on that system.
So from a thermodynamic point of view this is a system that for all intents and purposes is in equilibrium. The rate out heat out put and heat liberated is governed by the deisgn of that system.
Thermal saturation is the problem here - Just adding an insulating layer to a piston means that the other component (head, valves and cylinder) are exposed to higher temperatures. This causes an inbalance. So during your intake stroke the intake has the same cooling effect as from a non coated application, however the energy in the form of heat is higher.
This means that the intake charge, pre compression is hotter. Compressing this mixture can lead to detonation but if it doesn't the whole system is compounded.
Without modification to the whole system these coatings are (as I say in the video) a bad idea. This is not to say they can't be designed into an engine.
i agree with most of this response, exept "Just adding an insulating layer to a piston means that the other component (head, valves and cylinder) are exposed to higher temperatures." is not nessesarily detremental. in general it is a good thing to get rid of residual heat by exhausting it instead of dumping it through the cooling system. if your exhaust gasses are hotter, due to insulation on the piston, this will happen. the question then is just if the hotter exhaust valve is worth it.
by the way, it is really great to be able to have factual discussions in your comment section. just not for you because it will keep me posing annoying comments.
Interesting discussion, this is what adults can do without censorship. So a ceramic treated piston crown will logically raise post combustion temperatures and lead to higher temperatures on the surface of the head and valves during that combustion. The exhaust valves would seem to be at risk but perhaps a head is easier to cool than a piston. The discussion does highlight that coating the piston crowns might be detrimental to other parts, I had not anticipated that downside.
I'm just curious, what if you had a small area on the piston that was getting very hot, hotter than the rest of the piston causing preignition. Could the coating help dissipate the heat evenly reducing the super hot spot to the whole piston being hotter overall but not to the extremes? So you could bandaid a bad combustion chamber with bad hot spots on the piston? Or even in the combustion chamber?
3:36, oil carries heat away
I dont get what you mean?
The Workshop if the heat doesn't transfer to the oil rings, we have detonation
xactly what you explained
🤘good song choice🤘
Honda has used a orange peel finish in many older engines, I wonder if it's for heat or to get more heat transfer
I think that you will find that the top was checked in centigrade and the bottom was checked via Fahrenheit was slight of hand
Well... should do "strategic" copper inserted into the piston to transfer the heat faster? Or mine is a dumb idea of the 6 in the morning after 12hrs of work...
One word - mass
IR Pyrometers are sensitive to radiation.
Different surfaces have different emission factors.
A coated surface sure has a different t Emission than a “plain” aluminium one.
Thats why this type of measuring temperature is not correct same as the coating of the pistons in the first place.
They don’t understand the basics of the cooling of the piston, thanks for your educational video(s).
I’m sure the valves and the head will suffer in this config.
"IR Pyrometers are sensitive to radiation.
Different surfaces have different emission factors.
A coated surface sure has a different t Emission than a “plain” aluminium one. "
It's called emissivity, and I say that in the video...
when car guys all use the wrong TOOLS to do the job, you need a THERMISTOR to measure these SURFACE temperatures and HEAT SINK COMPOUND.
Hotter water is better than hot oil. Easier to circulate and cool. It's a great idea, especially for leaner mixtures and turbos.
I think Matt's sour grape is that they obviously faked the temperature readings. Granted this can be a valid option on a custom engine, but claiming that this, as a general service, is something you would want to have done on to your pistons on an otherwise stock engine is a hoax.
The standard piston they used was a little different as well.
When you threw the coke on top it was like being in a Japanese steakhouse when the put the water on top of the grill to clean it .
Say, could you make an engine that has a really high normal operating temperature, high enough so that water in he cooling system is constantly boiling, and run a turbo off the water vapour circulating through the cooling lines? I think I remember reading about gerries using something like this in their experimental prop plane that was designed to break some speed record.
Oh, it wasn't used to recover energy, just for cooling, it seems en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_209
What's that dimple on the crown for? Better fuel+air mixing?
Which piston?
The ones on the ceramic wizards' video.
Valve clearance - sometimes you have individual recesses - having a dimple means that you pistons is slightly lighter.
Oh, so the valve opens that far? wicked
Quite astounding if that really happened
It's annoying the piss out of me that I can't pick where that laughing clip/meme you use come from... I've seen it in a film at some point but I'm buggered if I can remember which one... help a bloke sleep at night will ya Matt? Tell me which movie it's from? 😂
Great video BTW... 😬
Dinner for Schmucks
what is the title of the rock sounds in the intro? please reply thanks :)
th-cam.com/video/5abamRO41fE/w-d-xo.html
@@dirtygarageguy many thanks mate :)
@4:40 Is that a piston which uses polyquad ports ?
Lets imagine for a moment that the coolin system can handle the massive heat build up in your combustion chamber. Now, you are making your piston work a LOT cooler, doesnt that means that you should check and re-do your clearenses of the piston, the piston pin and the conecting rod? the clearense will be bigger in a stock engine due to heat and i dont want to rev a bike to 12000rpm in that case.
Another point matt, the coating will not crack and degrade over time? A lot of combustion events over ceramic... i dont know if thats a smart idea. If it cracks or wear off, it will cause a heat point in your piston, and the residue will be caught by your rings and scratch your cilinder walls.
Is my logic OK? Thx Matt Damon!
They are some great points
Great video Matt, especially the second part where you pointed out the temperature difference those fuckers where trying to pedal. How ever you lost me trying to explain why piston is a better radiator of heat then getting rid of it out the exhaust port. I don't understand why its better to let piston soak the heat and transfer it to the cylinder vs letting the cylinder/head/exhaust deal with it. Wouldn't it mean that sense the piston doesn;t have to have an added stress of caring heat it can be made lighter? Just asking ,not trying to be a smart ass.
The piston is helping with cooling by transfering some heat to the engine oil.
If you remove this cooling the exhaust would be hotter and maybe damage the valves or something else.
The surface of the piston would also be hotter, because the heat can not get away, leading to detonation and fat fuel mixture to try to cool the piston.
they use ceramics to insulate the space shuttle btw
That is not how a steam piston works!
I wish you would keep these things on the hush hush, cos if the terrorists find out they will be driving cars around the cities with ceramic pistons and evans coolant. And that will be all bad for us.
Some not really technical info on piston coatings from Wiseco blog.wiseco.com/enhancing-your-pistons-with-wisecos-unique-piston-coatings No mention of ceramic to prevent heat from soaking into the piston... Not sure if they are using a normal anodize process, or a cold, hard process, or one of the other processes to anodize their pistons. Not sure if they have a real technical paper on each coating, but it might be available on request.
"ArmorGlide and ArmorFit" - they are basically a screen printed 'sticker' of PTFE.
"ArmorX" - "An anodic coating is basically an oxide film that is applied to the aluminum metal through electrolysis." or anodising LOL
The Workshop
That would be the marketing department trying to make it seem special. Probably just a dyed regular anodized layer and not even cold, hard anodize.
Very interesting video thanks, though Im still wondering what the Dutch detective Van Der Valk has to do with it :D [07:15]
cool
You know I'm kinda proud of myself that I sent you this video, feels like I did something right.
Can you be my Dad?
Fuck off he’s my Dad.
"Can you be my Dad?"
- If your mum is hot, then I don't see why not.
18:49 I think you're forgetting about magic!
That I have LOL
why are using that laser temp thing, totally inaccurate on shiny hot metal.
I completely agree with the fact that their demonstration is shit. But I have just a question for you :
If cooling through piston is so important, why would Mercedes put Steel pistons in one of their last diesel engine (OM654) ?
(Steel has a better thermal conductivity than ceramics, but way worse than aluminum...)
I believe that if took into account at early design stage of an engine (I mean for cooling adaptation needed), a coating reducing conductivity can improve thermal efficiency by keeping heat inside the combustion chamber. For sure this coating has to be bullet proof and I would not trust ceramic exhaust coating on a piston...
Compression - diesels take a beating. Not only that but heat saturation isn't such a problem due to lower rpms.
At the end of the day you're talking about diesels. This video is about petrol engines. Its a good point, but a different one.
Right, but does not mean that it is gonna be true for ever : www.cycleworld.com/2016/01/14/steel-pistons-part-1-is-steel-a-better-material-cycle-world-motorcycle-technology-feature
LOL in this article they talk about fatigue limits of aluminium - stress cracking due to the lack of radii in the corners of the windows. What the fuck does this have to do with pistons? Pistons don't fail due to UTS, that something that con-rods fail from.
As far as 'true forever' this is true. But lightweight sintered steel pistons with fuck all piston skirts is also nothing to do with ceramic coatings. I do get your point, but this is a bit beyonds the scope of the video.
A video to be banned in the Antipodes? :)
Equilibrium = Entropy?
as i told people on my channel, if you get your info from youtube, you better be an expert on the subject before you listen to these self proclaimed subject matters experts (SME's) or you are more than likely to get bad bad info
it is TOTALLY possible to be hotter on the bottom than the top is you use the WRONG TOOL to measure the temps in the first place lmfao
Yep, a “bloke” in a shed some were on a depressing dark wet island knows better then all the race teams and all the companies in the world that provide this service.
so you're saying magic is real?
Real? - Its all around!
This test has a flaw I see. You have different pistons in this test not all same pistons are used. Piston top of different pistons have the thicknesses from them being a different amount. Some are thicker than others. Just a observation I had to inform you about.
"You have different pistons in this test not all same pistons are used."
- these aren't compared to each other, and you missed the point. Any heat that isn't transfered to the piston stays in the cylinder.
Combustion processes will always transfer the heat to piston even with having a coating to the crown. The gasses go past the rings aswell as cylinder wall heating up which transfers heat also. The way to cool down pistons is with oil squirting underneath the piston like some engines already do. A coating helps with detonation damaging reduction and helps carbon building up also. They do say it speeds the flame front aswell but that's not been proved with test results yet. Design of a piston is barrel shape the heat is needed for expansion to make it rounder and helps in sealing it better in the bore. The heat from combustion can be over 500f and no matter what coating applied the heat will equal non coated pistons same way, just a bit slower than the normal pistons though.
I bet melted plastic with boiled oil and coke smells like the opposite of nice.
you are completely incorrect on how ceramics work in the combustion chamber. you coat the piston AND the head and valves, the heat goes out the exhaust. The use of ceramics have been proven time and time again. Many oems have used ceramics for over a decade.
third
First
It ain't rocket science.
Second 😂
I understand why you played so much of their video in one go but I'd be worried about copywrite claims when playing it in its entirety like that instead of clips and a link.
Just saying. Dont want someone taking down your channel or dicking you over.
This is review - The rules are less than 20% of my video. Which it is.