Great video man. Dynamics work well as overheads because they can balance out the kit and help bring up the warmth of the snare and toms to give a huge sounding mix when blended with the close mics. I recently tried out an sm7b and it sounded great! However, small diaphragms condensers (Such as on your Zoom) and ribbon mics will have a really nice off-axis coloration. The polar pattern is super consistent through all the frequencies. If measured a cardioid pattern at say 1k, it will be still a cardioid pattern at 100 Hz. This just means that the mic will sound great out to the sides, like when you have a cymbal not directly in front of the mic. If you liked how the mics sounds in general, then it won't change a whole lot out to the sides. With XY on a kit like this, there's a ton out to the sides, so there might be some strange sounding elements of the kit. (I would try the sm57s at a true 90 - It sounded a little narrow to me) This off-axis coloration in dynamic mics is why cymbal bleed into a tom mic can sound so bad and be very hard to mix with. This exact concept is also why a LDC used on vocal during live tracking will pick up so much room noise...it's that the lower frequencies are not cardioid at all. Or why ribbons are used as room mics to null out the drums...because the off-axis color sounds beautiful, not harsh. Great sounding cymbals so that's half the battle of a great sound!
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. This is exactly what I was looking for! The Glyn Johns Technique with SM57s. Sounds really well balanced.
Fascinating, when it came between the sm57s and the zoom, I could only tell one element was missing, there was just something that my right ear was picking on the Zoom that I wasn’t on the 57. But the 57 was super close, maybe it just needs a adjustment in post.
Shane, that was a very nice demonstration. Very effective. There is nothing wrong with using any dynamic microphone for drum overheads. And just as you surmise. There are slight less sensitivity. Makes them a more ideal candidate for live capture and performance applications. As they already EQ out that which you don't really want anyhow. Now as to the microphones themselves? The small condenser elements in the Zoom. Make that an ideal candidate for the cymbals. With a nice smooth linear high end. But not much excitement factor in the drums themselves. Where they kind of flattened out. And become somewhat hushed. The Electro-Voice, dynamics. Offer up a nice smooth flat response sound. With no hype. And are completely usable. Just not all that exciting. But still has great articulation on the drums themselves. In a smooth way. The 57 & 58's, have it hands down. They offer a solid pop and solid snap, to the drums. With an adequate high-end, for the cymbals. Nothing special but quite usable. But overall, my favorites, by far. They already include a nice presence boost. That further brings out the articulation of the drums like all of the others can't. And were the most solid sounding, the most present. Yup. You don't have to believe me? I just have four major music award nominations and 20 years spent as a top audio engineer for a major Radio & Television, network. And my control room is like the one in the movie called Sound City. Yeah. I have one of those consoles. Only better than the one in the movie. Or at least that's what Rupert Neve, told me.
How wild! I often use the exact same EV 408A mics, (well one since the other got ripped off) I use just the one one overhead on drum set and I love the results. Really great to hear the response you got from that Shure guy around 4:55 ! Also brought one once to the gig for someone and they forgot their overhead stands so we taped it to one of the symbol stands near the floor Tom pointed it towards the snare and it was amazing they are so heavily directional you can really work with the off-axis rejection and pointed where you want to hear, overhead it works really well for feedback rejection that way too because you can pointed away from feedback sources and still get the whole drum set. (On your XY set ups for those stereo overheads it might be a little more phase coherent to actually cross the mic capsules one over the other exactly cross them though, (like the zoom capsules). I haven’t listened on headphones and compared in mono summing yet though so maybe it’s just fine…
That was so sick. I'm an engineer and drummer of 10+ years and I've used glyn johns technique before with condensers but I think I like it more with the dynamics lol. i think i'm gonna find a stereo pair of dynamics i like to do this more often
Interesting at 3:00 the condenser has some issues with the bell of the cymbal where the dynamic was fine with it. Not surprising as transients in the highs are to me the weakness (perhaps because they're too 'strong') of condensers.
Not too far off from the condensers. Both 58’s and 57’s. What little they lack can be easily be compensated for with eq. Thank you for teaching us and taking the time. ♥️😘 m.
Great video! Recently I was very interested in how legal it is to use dyn mics on overheads/close cymbal mics. As a result i messed up positioning of close mics on crashes - on a "rib" of cymbal, if cymbal moves after been strucked - sound also wobbles. For overheads I use spaced pair standing behind the drums on a 60cm din rail, height approximately 120cm, left mic between hat and snare, right mic on the floor tom/ride, right mic is slightly closer to drums, but distance from mics to center of snare is equal, it sounds very wide, natural and balanced. It seems to me like the best setup of overheads. I hope that my bad English will be understandable
The Sm57's and EV408's in XY sound pretty good as overheads. The pickup some of the stick slap on the cymbals and have a nice dip in mid/hi-mid frequency. Blend that in with close mics and you have a nice smooth , full sound. That's my opinion. Great Video!
One can never go wrong with having a few extra SM 57s around. No need to really mic every drum unless your doing metal. Most rock and country bands just need a kick snare and a couple overhead dynamics, 95% of the audience would never be able to tel the difference The EVs sound great
Love the sound of those EVs on OH. In live situations condensers can get a bit too much of whats going on around, ie other instruments. Most dynamics with a cardioid pattern are wide enough to capture the kit whilst removing a lot of the bleed from other sources. I also think a lot of condensers can sound a bit harsh to those FOH, I think dynamics can provide a very full & round sound, without hurting the ears of the audience. I'm a fan to be honest!
I think dynamic mics are generally easier to use, with less phase issues than condenser mics .. Maybe I'm wrong, just a guess.... But I have been having problems with recording with small diaphragm condenser as they make the cymbals too harsh where I have to either go-12db or more or the cymbals sound harsh and to trebly... I'm going to try a dynamic for the over head.
I have a question. I’m trying to mic up the drums but would I have to move my Leslie? I’m scared that the audio from the organ will bleed into the drum mics.
It depends on how close it is to your drum setup. If you're using dynamic mics, make sure it's 6 feet away and not directly in line with the mic head and you should be fine. It may bleed a little, but not too bad.
great video. I learned a lot from your implementations of the techniques. One question, did you happen to flip the polarity ("phase") on any mic? I am curious because it seems to me the floor tom mic is behind the kick on your glyn johns, and I am wondering if that had any phase issues with the kick mic. I liked the implementation of the dynamics for glyn johns.
Thanks for watching! I am glad this has helped. I did not flip the polarity on any mics in this recording. The only time I need to do that with my setup is on the snare sometimes as is interferes with the overhead snare sound, but not here.
You can look at the angle of the mic and tell the phase shift. For example a mic under (If they both look strait up/down) the snare would be 180 difference from a snare mic on the top, therefore we often flip polarity. Technically the over the shoulder mic/floor tom mic would be 90 degrees out, but that's never seemed to bother anyone in this very classic technique.
I guess it depends on how critical you are of the recorded sounds, but IMO they all sound ok, just different. I will say that the 100% left pan on the Floor tom mic using the Glyn Johns method makes the whole kit sound unbalanced towards the left.
those xy's should not have been in the comparison, technically yes they are condensers but they are pure crap, i know i have owned them. the first thing i did on my zoom was buy better mics. way to powerful mid range and slow transients.
I don't know - I think the Zoom built in mics sound great. I use them for all of my cover videos. If I have enough money for expensive condensers, I'm probably going to spend it on drums instead anyway. Thanks for watching.
Great video man. Dynamics work well as overheads because they can balance out the kit and help bring up the warmth of the snare and toms to give a huge sounding mix when blended with the close mics. I recently tried out an sm7b and it sounded great! However, small diaphragms condensers (Such as on your Zoom) and ribbon mics will have a really nice off-axis coloration. The polar pattern is super consistent through all the frequencies. If measured a cardioid pattern at say 1k, it will be still a cardioid pattern at 100 Hz. This just means that the mic will sound great out to the sides, like when you have a cymbal not directly in front of the mic. If you liked how the mics sounds in general, then it won't change a whole lot out to the sides. With XY on a kit like this, there's a ton out to the sides, so there might be some strange sounding elements of the kit. (I would try the sm57s at a true 90 - It sounded a little narrow to me) This off-axis coloration in dynamic mics is why cymbal bleed into a tom mic can sound so bad and be very hard to mix with. This exact concept is also why a LDC used on vocal during live tracking will pick up so much room noise...it's that the lower frequencies are not cardioid at all. Or why ribbons are used as room mics to null out the drums...because the off-axis color sounds beautiful, not harsh. Great sounding cymbals so that's half the battle of a great sound!
Wow - thanks for all of the great technical information! I am pinning your post to the top so that anyone that comes by will have access. Great info!
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. This is exactly what I was looking for! The Glyn Johns Technique with SM57s. Sounds really well balanced.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad this has helped you out. Take care!
Really enjoyed the various techniques and mics. Thank you!
great comparison! i really enjoy the sound from the Glyn Johns technique, even with the 57s
Thanks for watching! It does sound surprisingly good, even with those mics. When I EQ it a little bit I am totally satisfied with that sound.
Thank your for a great video! Really enjoyed the Glyn Johns method! Going to be using that method for sure!
Fascinating, when it came between the sm57s and the zoom, I could only tell one element was missing, there was just something that my right ear was picking on the Zoom that I wasn’t on the 57. But the 57 was super close, maybe it just needs a adjustment in post.
Shane, that was a very nice demonstration. Very effective.
There is nothing wrong with using any dynamic microphone for drum overheads. And just as you surmise. There are slight less sensitivity. Makes them a more ideal candidate for live capture and performance applications. As they already EQ out that which you don't really want anyhow.
Now as to the microphones themselves? The small condenser elements in the Zoom. Make that an ideal candidate for the cymbals. With a nice smooth linear high end. But not much excitement factor in the drums themselves. Where they kind of flattened out. And become somewhat hushed.
The Electro-Voice, dynamics. Offer up a nice smooth flat response sound. With no hype. And are completely usable. Just not all that exciting. But still has great articulation on the drums themselves. In a smooth way.
The 57 & 58's, have it hands down. They offer a solid pop and solid snap, to the drums. With an adequate high-end, for the cymbals. Nothing special but quite usable. But overall, my favorites, by far. They already include a nice presence boost. That further brings out the articulation of the drums like all of the others can't. And were the most solid sounding, the most present. Yup.
You don't have to believe me? I just have four major music award nominations and 20 years spent as a top audio engineer for a major Radio & Television, network. And my control room is like the one in the movie called Sound City. Yeah. I have one of those consoles. Only better than the one in the movie. Or at least that's what Rupert Neve, told me.
I used a pair of Sennheiser e604 when a folk band wanted a grittier, sort of cassette-like sound, it went pretty good.
@@pentagonoenllamas I’ve actually been looking at those for some tom and conga work. Thanks!
Great video as always Shane. Thanks for the tips, gonna put these to use.
Great video! It helps me to think microphone set to our show.
You’re welcome. Good luck!
How wild! I often use the exact same EV 408A mics, (well one since the other got ripped off) I use just the one one overhead on drum set and I love the results. Really great to hear the response you got from that Shure guy around 4:55 ! Also brought one once to the gig for someone and they forgot their overhead stands so we taped it to one of the symbol stands near the floor Tom pointed it towards the snare and it was amazing they are so heavily directional you can really work with the off-axis rejection and pointed where you want to hear, overhead it works really well for feedback rejection that way too because you can pointed away from feedback sources and still get the whole drum set.
(On your XY set ups for those stereo overheads it might be a little more phase coherent to actually cross the mic capsules one over the other exactly cross them though, (like the zoom capsules). I haven’t listened on headphones and compared in mono summing yet though so maybe it’s just fine…
Thanks for good comparing mics video!...Ill try today couple of 58´s Glyn Johns technique for demo recording
I loved the sound of the sm58 on overheads, very smooth and warm for me :D I think is very useful for hiphop music with lo-fi drum tone :D
I didn't consider the hiphop angle. That could totally work. Thanks for watching!
The thing that impressed me the most was the sound quality of the zoom h6! It sounded amazing to be honest.
That was so sick. I'm an engineer and drummer of 10+ years and I've used glyn johns technique before with condensers but I think I like it more with the dynamics lol. i think i'm gonna find a stereo pair of dynamics i like to do this more often
Noera Thanks! I was surprised at how much I liked that sound. It works really well live in smaller bars. Have fun.
Interesting at 3:00 the condenser has some issues with the bell of the cymbal where the dynamic was fine with it. Not surprising as transients in the highs are to me the weakness (perhaps because they're too 'strong') of condensers.
Woodstock was recorded on 565's
Thanks so much I think I just found the ev nd 408 is the best sound…. Thanks for making the video … love the H6 versatility. Awesome move there
Not too far off from the condensers. Both 58’s and 57’s. What little they lack can be easily be compensated for with eq. Thank you for teaching us and taking the time. ♥️😘 m.
You’re very welcome. Thanks for the kind words.
Great video! Recently I was very interested in how legal it is to use dyn mics on overheads/close cymbal mics. As a result i messed up positioning of close mics on crashes - on a "rib" of cymbal, if cymbal moves after been strucked - sound also wobbles. For overheads I use spaced pair standing behind the drums on a 60cm din rail, height approximately 120cm, left mic between hat and snare, right mic on the floor tom/ride, right mic is slightly closer to drums, but distance from mics to center of snare is equal, it sounds very wide, natural and balanced. It seems to me like the best setup of overheads. I hope that my bad English will be understandable
The Sm57's and EV408's in XY sound pretty good as overheads. The pickup some of the stick slap on the cymbals and have a nice dip in mid/hi-mid frequency. Blend that in with close mics and you have a nice smooth , full sound. That's my opinion. Great Video!
I agree, thanks! This is just raw sound, so I imagine with someone on the board with some EQ knowledge would be able to make this setup sound great.
glyn johns
9:27 ev408
7:35 sm57
One can never go wrong with having a few extra SM 57s around. No need to really mic every drum unless your doing metal. Most rock and country bands just need a kick snare and a couple overhead dynamics, 95% of the audience would never be able to tel the difference The EVs sound great
Love the sound of those EVs on OH. In live situations condensers can get a bit too much of whats going on around, ie other instruments. Most dynamics with a cardioid pattern are wide enough to capture the kit whilst removing a lot of the bleed from other sources.
I also think a lot of condensers can sound a bit harsh to those FOH, I think dynamics can provide a very full & round sound, without hurting the ears of the audience. I'm a fan to be honest!
Great stuff! but to clarify Glynn Johns only did Zeppelins FIRST record. he did do a majority of the Stones records tho.
The dynamics give you a cool lo-fi sound, interesting.
Also, beautiful choice of cymbals man.
Thanks for watching! I think with some EQ, that sound could definitely work. I use it flat in bars all the time and have had no complaints.
Thanks - I am in love with my Saluda stuff. Take care.
Dynamics sound great especially on some songs.
I think dynamic mics are generally easier to use, with less phase issues than condenser mics .. Maybe I'm wrong, just a guess.... But I have been having problems with recording with small diaphragm condenser as they make the cymbals too harsh where I have to either go-12db or more or the cymbals sound harsh and to trebly... I'm going to try a dynamic for the over head.
Excellent Video! Thank you for the great information.
Thanks for watching and for the kind words! Every so often I get a decent idea for a tutorial video.
Awesome thank you!
The condenser Mic definitely has a better high Frequency sound IMO.
I totally agree. Unfortunately I can't use it live because it picks up EVERYTHING on stage.
really great video!
Thanks! I took a while to edit, but was worth it.
I have a question. I’m trying to mic up the drums but would I have to move my Leslie? I’m scared that the audio from the organ will bleed into the drum mics.
It depends on how close it is to your drum setup. If you're using dynamic mics, make sure it's 6 feet away and not directly in line with the mic head and you should be fine. It may bleed a little, but not too bad.
GIANT difference wow
But do you know what EV stands for?
Electro Voice is what it stands for
@@adrianlyord5300 Indeed
great video. I learned a lot from your implementations of the techniques. One question, did you happen to flip the polarity ("phase") on any mic? I am curious because it seems to me the floor tom mic is behind the kick on your glyn johns, and I am wondering if that had any phase issues with the kick mic. I liked the implementation of the dynamics for glyn johns.
Thanks for watching! I am glad this has helped. I did not flip the polarity on any mics in this recording. The only time I need to do that with my setup is on the snare sometimes as is interferes with the overhead snare sound, but not here.
Awesome, thanks! Well it sounds good for a pair of moving-coil dynamics doing the job
You can look at the angle of the mic and tell the phase shift. For example a mic under (If they both look strait up/down) the snare would be 180 difference from a snare mic on the top, therefore we often flip polarity. Technically the over the shoulder mic/floor tom mic would be 90 degrees out, but that's never seemed to bother anyone in this very classic technique.
Thanks for the info!
I prefer SM57 in Glyn position. This reduces too much high freqs like a natural eq.
The dynamics can be used as an eq for balancing the highs, but it sounds kinda ugly. IDK, maybe this can be used in live drums?
I guess it depends on how critical you are of the recorded sounds, but IMO they all sound ok, just different. I will say that the 100% left pan on the Floor tom mic using the Glyn Johns method makes the whole kit sound unbalanced towards the left.
Thanks for the input. I was experimenting and thought it would make a good topic. I think the sound is okay for live, but never for studio type stuff.
Keep Rockin' That is way better than me!
Thanks! Much appreciated.
Liked and subbed!
Thanks!
Wow! I subbed!
Thanks! Much apppreciated.
i can really hear the difference.
To an extent the dynamics work, I think they could use a low end roll off and some mid range taken out because they sound a bit tinny
Niceeee
Thanks for watching.
those xy's should not have been in the comparison, technically yes they are condensers but they are pure crap, i know i have owned them. the first thing i did on my zoom was buy better mics. way to powerful mid range and slow transients.
I don't know - I think the Zoom built in mics sound great. I use them for all of my cover videos. If I have enough money for expensive condensers, I'm probably going to spend it on drums instead anyway. Thanks for watching.
@@RedeyePerc The problem is the noise floor, especially if you record anything quiet and boost it in post.
57s lack that snizzle
Agreed. It's kind of a dead sound, but if you have no other mics, some EQ can help make that work okay.