SHOULD you SUBDIVIDE the mesh? - HARD SURFACE dilemma in Blender.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2020
- ►► Enroll in the most popular (and free) hard surface modeling course - www.blenderbros.com/jumpstart
►► The Hard Surface Academy - www.blenderbros.com/academy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
➤MaterialWorks Blender addon (easiest way to texture in Blender) - www.blenderbros.com/materialw...
➤ Our Hard Surface Modeling Products: www.blenderbros.com/store
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MY FAVORITE BLENDER ADDONS:
⚙️HARDOPS and BOXCUTTER
gumroad.com/a/95646835
www.blendermarket.com/creator...
🔨 Decal/Mesh Machine/Machin3 Tools:
www.blendermarket.com/creator...
⛮ KITOPS 2/ Design Magic / Eevee + Cycles Materials System
gumroad.com/a/779940979
blendermarket.com/creators/al...
🔌Cablerator
gumroad.com/a/877982835
www.blendermarket.com/product...
💾Power Save / Power Link / Power Backup
gumroad.com/a/1073542259
www.blendermarket.com/creator...
🧘♂️ Zen UV / ZenBBQ
gumroad.com/a/10482803
www.blendermarket.com/product...
🐝UV Packmaster 3
gumroad.com/a/1027609715
blendermarket.com/creators/gl...
☝️Mech Squad Collection and more
gumroad.com/a/634688627
️🔥Skribe - Screencast key program
gumroad.com/a/483153107/lcdne
**Some addons listed above may contain affiliate links, giving me a small commission from any sales made. I only promote addons that I use personally.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLENDER BROS LINKS & SOCIALS:
💻 Website - www.blenderbros.com/
🏪 Gumroad - gumroad.com/theblenderbros
📡Blender Market - blendermarket.com/creators/bl...
☎️ Discord - / discord
🖼️ Instagram - / blenderbros3d
🎨 Artstation - www.artstation.com/blenderbros
📣FB Group - / blenderhardsurface
CONTACT:
📱 Inquiries/questions - info@blenderbros.com
**Some addons listed above may contain affiliate links, giving me a small commission from any sales made. I only promote addons that I use personally.
🧩My personal links (stores / websites / portfolios)
➤linktr.ee/ryuurui
"pick your battles the smart way" i like that advise, thanks!
You bet!
The whole idea behind Subdivision Surface modifier is to not apply it. Then you can control the mesh with a relatively low amount of control points while affecting many. It is difficult to get a hang of and slow, but definitely good for many designs that you cannot make with just booleans and bevels
the whole idea is to use tools the way you need them to get the job done mate
You are the god of all Blender Hard Surface artists
I would definitely not go that far lol but thanks, glad you enjoy the vids!
Thank you for this. Love your out of the box take on modeling. Your workflow fits so well with the way I think.
Awesome, thank you!
So many gems in this you talked about quad vs ngon subd or not and even how to fix things along the way you also did a great job showing the pros cons of each and what they're best at perfect video thanks!
You're savage, I love your videos. Thanks for putting an end to crappy misconceptions and absolutely meaningless beliefs that have no foundation within the 3D workflow. You're a gem in the Blender community.
ah cheers mate, I really appreciate it!
Pick your battles do what works regardless of these beliefs
Just use MOI3D or Plasticity and move on with your life.
I love how digestible this was.. love this channel
cheers Cliff!
This seriously made a lot of sense! Thank you so much man! \m/
Glad to help!
Always picking the right topics.
glad it hit the right spot!
Very interesting and insightful as a beginner thank you
"...Ask Gleb, he has a video on this. I was watching it. I was dying inside, slowly." LOL. I subbed and bought one of your tutorials on blendermarket. Thank you!
haha, cheers man!
Very informative video, thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much! I was in need of such advice
Glad it was helpful!
The 'slang' you use in your videos really add to them ! I'm a big fan
thank you ,its what i ve been thinking if you smart handle your model you can do anything, thnx Ryu
Yup! cheers, mate!
Subscribed for the no bs attitude. Thanks man, I thought I was doing something wrong, but never considered just not using subsurf to avoid headaches. This makes sense now.
cheers man!
As someone slowly transitioning from NURBS/CAD software like Solidworks, Rhino, Alias.... this helps a lot. Many modeling tutorials stress quad-mesh topology for sub-D, so I've been wondering how you hardsurfacing pros achieve that highly detailed mech-look that is similar to NURBS-based booleans. This video changed the way I think about poly modeling!! I love this approach! Need to get me a copy of hardops + meshmachine.
Glad to hear it, mate, we have too much misinfo on quads. You should also check my tut on quadremesher and offset cut with mesh machine, deus ex vid on machine tools, and look up the upcoming hyper cursor from mmachin3 on his channel. This is gonna be as close to nurbs as you can get with poly modelling.
Whoa. Lotsa tricks in this one. Cheers
glad it was helpful
@GrantAbbitt tutorials got me going in blender and now you are going to get me in hard surface.
Because of your videos i will be buying my first paid add-on hardops & box cutter bundle😬.
Your videos are just too good.
Thanks
welcome to the dark side of the cube!
Hello!! Fantastic explanation. What do you use to perform boolean operations?
Boxcutter and Hardops gumroad.com/a/95646835
Very nice video! I'm about to buy Hardops/Meshmachine and more addons, these really look fantastic! Just one question : if you were to optimise the polycount on your Phoenix, say, to make it a game asset (I assume your mesh has way too much geometry for a game asset? Couldn't see the amount of tris you got), would you do a full retopology by hand so that you can bake your already high poly mesh onto the low poly? I mean, somewhat like you would retopo manually something you just sculpted.
you could do it in many ways, retopo is one, you could also try clean mesh with hard ops, creating low poly model is another
So you can use the bevel modifier and set the limit method to weight instead of something like angle and then each edge can have a different weight so any edge could have a different bevel offset with just a single bevel modifier, something you said couldn't really be done at 7:30 but I could do it very quickly and efficiently.
You can use this in conjunction with sub division to essentially fortify the edges that that you wouldn't want to be softened so that the mesh can maintain it's shape without you having to add extra loop cuts.
technically you could but thats a lot of manual labour and fiddling.
Generally i don't advice to use bevel. Working with edge loops is superior. That way you guarantee 100% quads. And fully re-editable beside the actual extrusions and insets.
i work with whatever is faster mate and gets the job done, I am not gonna spend 7h messing with edge loops for a folio render. If i work in pure subd on a vfx project, then yes loops are the way to go, most of the time, unless creases are requested. Other than that speed is the essence.
@@PonteRyuurui A portfolio piece should showcase your skill, not your ability to quickly make a mesh that is unusable in a pipeline. I appreciate you giving the lattice some love though.
"It's bollocks yeah?". Subbed.
lol, cheers
thx really learn alot :).
Awesome!
haha you sound like my first Blender teacher. He did not like subD either. He used lattice a lot. Amazing what you can do with the lattice. Subbed.
cheers mate
thank you sir for sharing ideas :) god bless :)
You are very welcome
So... for anything to do with hard surface modelling, you say stay away from from Sub D (which makes sense to me after doing a lot of yours and Josh's videos), but what about taking some of these models into film, would you say Sub D at the end when you have your final model and what more high res control i.e with textures etc (just a guess)
i did not say i stay away from sub d, i said i stay away from it if i dont need it. so there is your answer.
Key for success is right tools. Hardops its perfect for hard surfaces, but for making some smooth geometry, like an sport car as exemple, subdive is way more handy.
“Control it. Good luck”. LOL, great video.
Awesome videos, and truly amazing 3D art. Thanks for sharing.
cheers mate
Same bears true for animation as well. Not only hard surf. If you wanna support folds standing out on the silhouette of the jeans of your character, you can happily throw some tris in there, or even ngons, as long as you check how it looks triangulated before export. Main thing is to have a good edge flow in deforming areas, face, elbows, knees, ankles... the rest you can achieve very good looking low polycount models by throwing the quads only doctrin out of window. And nothing will replace early deformation tests anyways. Jus cause you build an organic model out of quads only does not guarantee it deforms well for what its supposed to do. Way too complex for a rigid checklist approach. People are hiding behind this quads only bs forever. So glad more and more professionals clearing this up.
Exactly, lots of folks are stuck in the 1800s. Especially noticeable in schools, where students are being taught the same crap because teachers are too lazy to actually poke their heads up and see what has changed.
Quads are just easier to work with in packages like Maya, where you can't add an edge loop if you have a triangle among your quads. Many edits in high deformation areas are easier with quads as well. Why this has to turn into a heated debate is beyond me. Sometimes tris are ok, other times not so much. There are a lot of situations where they should be avoided while other times there is nothing wrong with having them.
16:45 but for example if I want like in this situation to have this hole intersected with huge bevel to stay in place without moving, how I have to clean this?
if you need massive overlapping bevels then you would need to reshape that mesh or use sculpting and retopo.
I am very good at sub d modeling but this hard surface boolean stuff looks like it makes other processes difficult such as creating low poly meshes for texturing with sub d i can use my base mesh to make a HP model and LP with minimal work without having to retopologies a mesh for instance. can you elaborate on what this is good at? is it only for creating a block out or just for cgi work?
time you waste on subd you save on bool workflow, also who said you cant texture it, if it doest bend you are fine in hs. subd is outdated mindset mate, unless you work in movie industry, specific pipeline, or you need quads for some other reason, also if you REALLY need quads, just remesh stuff with quadremesher
Hi, u're creating great videos. But on 15:46, what is this tool for cutting?
Thanks! It's Boxcutter addon, here
Buy HARDOPS and BOXCUTTER addons (affiliate link):gumroad.com/a/95646835
Hi Ryuu, if you have a bit of time to make a new tut about Array V2, I'm completely screwed with it to create a radial array, ST1 can be used I know but not really a fan of it, currently I use 'meshtools/radial array' function it's the older way but at least it's working easily, thanks in advance on mate.
sure man, i ll have to look into it, you can always use radial array from hops tool top bar
Ok, so this has been a life saver for me. As a begginer, doing a boxy thing they told me to use subd, ended up with a mess and spent hours manually fixing the topology vert by vert. Ofc I got frustrated and bored after 5 hours without any real advancement. Now seeing this video, I could've used bevels and got away with it! Clean, easy to handle and relatively low poly mesh!! Idk if you're gonna read this but thanks man!! Subbing rn even though I don't have any of the payware addons yet haha
sweet, glad it was helpful, i d start with hopscutter bundle, that thing is off the hook
Sub Division was useful back in the day when you had to save on polygones. These we have such powerful systems that you don't really have to use subdivision models. I didn't know Blender did B-splines , which i last saw on Rhino. So many options on this program, and its free.
Up until this now i thought 'hard surface modeling' was more a process or a technique which you could apply to any underlying mesh, but it seems better suited to mesh modeling, with the addition those tool sets like bevels etc. The thing to look at would be controlled transformation tools. so you can add natural flowing curves to those hard surfaces. I have the feeling much of what we call design is still in part, constrained by the tools we use, or the ways we use those tools.
You still have to save on polygons. Games have limits on polygon counts, the limit is just very high. Its all about how much time you want to wait for quality. Games require decent framerates, and prerendered animations need to be rendered in a decent amount of time. So, its all about the lowest polycount that is acceptable such that the render times and final quality are good.
Some incredible statements. 'Sub Division was useful back in the day' - So the pros at Marvel and ILM are stuck in the past? Stuck in the 80s? LOL. Pixar has a dedicated Sub D algorithm and yes when working in the industry you WILL need clean quad topology. One of the reasons why clean topology and quads are so important is how the model interacts with light and textures etc. Maybe for a 3d sketch but even then you will need to retopo - QuadDraw for example to retopo. I want to see a tutorial here on modeling a car - something that students work on in HS modeling .
THANK U for sharing .Where can find out occlude ande auto merge( 16:47) Please~
machine tools, links in the vid descr
@@PonteRyuurui thank u so much！
Very useful! Personally, I find working with subdiv difficult for hardsurface, but if I do (that 1% of the time), I apply strong creases and vertex weights (I hope that Blender implements Edge Weights like Modo has!) for more control
Glad this is out of the way though. I've been taught early on that subdiv will be my most commonly used modifier.
I never guessed that it instead would be Mirror, Bevel, Weld, Decimate and Boolean.. Oh and Array, and Screw and Solidify.. Everything *BUT* Subdivision. It's honestly one of my least used.
Cheers! Well, you can use edge weight in blender, if you are using hardops it is even easier.
As a Amateur level blender artist. I love SubD, but man it can give you butt ugly topology. Which often results in double work cleaning it up. But at the same time, gives you the exact shapes and curvatures.
I've always done subD since i started 3d using Maya. now im trying to learn blender I never put enough edges when i bevel as i@m too used to subD, cuz i think it'll just get smoothed out later.
it depends on what effect you are going for
totally feel the same! :D
0:44 - "Oooh, scary." I seriously had to pause the video I LOL'd so much.
hehe
Hi, can someone tell me how to find that "red fence" select and boolean function used at 6:43 on?
it:s boxcutter gumroad.com/a/95646835
What about topology? The last mesh you make has a ton of ngons. I'd love to find a final answer on if wan when to accept them.
If you are stuck in the 80s then you ll worry about ngons
@@PonteRyuurui I thought the more of that stuff is gonna kill a pc
"We are trying to hunt them down and eventually we will get them all" LMAO😂
it's a process
So I should stick to subD if im creating game asset? Cuz I need to bake highpoly into lowpoly model. Or Can I just do hardops boxcutter and then dice my model densly?
it depends, on its purpose, type, animation method, etc
For game assets you can cheat a lot as highpoly is throwaway so can be whatever polygon soup as long as it bakes correctly. Super fast and dirty method is to make your model with booleans or even CAD, slap it in ZBrush, dynamesh, polish and voila - you have high poly to bake (yes probably a million poly one but on modern computers baking times are irrelevant) :)).
already subd
This solves the question for me. I used to think that I need to do subd coz almost all the tutorials are doing it. I don't even need it half the time. Thanks.
ya those tuts are full of shaite, the base line is - use the topology / mehtods that gets the job done.
Are you using any add-ons for Blender? Because Blender won't come with those advanced features, which you've used in the video.
By the way, your work flow is really appreciable!!!
ya tons, mainly hardops boxcutter mesh machine machine tools and decal machine, got link to all my addons in the vid descr
Would it be possible to use screencast keys even on videos like this? You did a couple of hotkeys Idr knowing, and it would have been useful to see the key pressed (even though combination or multiple key presses don't always show...)
I thought you could use subdiv after your bools. I saw you still have issues with that and you did subdiv after bools in the part 4 of the Mech Hercul3 ~12:50, you tried Mira tools, when I thought maybe a machin3 normal's stash and transfer would work? Idk. I'll have to see, given I've been fighting Darth Vader, since he's not allowing me to rig him with rigify or arp for a few days now. When cheap assets are not worth the price!
All I know is watching timelapse in 0.25 speed still saturates my little brain, I'm gonna take a nap now, tyvm.
This fucking thing didnt work again? Man this addon is such a garbage. I talked to pro3, they might be developing their own keys addon for hardops. So I cant bloody wait. It was not intentional man, sorry about it. Also, screencast keys wont display keys in bc mode.
@@PonteRyuurui, no worries. I'm trying to optimize my rehearsal of anything I can to learn everything I need, and I think learning Blender with Hop/BC/MM/Machin3/ARP/Rigify yada yada yada, with UE4/V-Ray, it's Materials system, its Particle system now called Niagara, because you want to jump off Niagara Falls trying to use it, and Cinecam system with almost as much control as a Red Dragon Cinema Camera, DaVinci Resolve for my Post, HoudiniFX if Khaos won't cut it for my pyro, and god knows what I have forgotten I'm learning (I just finished watching a time lapse of yours, and I think it saturated my little brain, so I'm gonna take a nap),
phew, ...
every little bit helps. Especially given Idk y I can't get one of my assets to rig with either rigify or arp, so I'm gonna cut him up and rig in sections to see if the mesh is fk'd or something, that I don't see otherwise. 3 Days trying different ways of rigging what seems like a straight forward asset, pisses me off.
But my machinima awaits... 2 months ago I did this, and I didn't know much about UE4, (I rendered 51 sec of animation in under 3 mins, compared to 3 sec of animation in 10hrs in e-cycles...and in UE4 it looks better!) here's the last 21 secs, re-rendered in V-Ray in under 3 mins too... imgur.com/H5i2hkT consider this was only an animation test. I didn't work hard at all texturing the scene, or have a good hdri or cubemap... oh, turn your sound down, just in case.
"Trying to hunt them down" 😂 😂
Where the heck have I come in my blender journey to where I'm listening for a guy talk for 20 minutes about sub d vs hard surface modeling? 😵💫
which ever best fits your work flow and allows you to animate it so it deforms correctly if you intend to have your hard surface bend and get damaged etc.
I just wish there was something to help with organic surfaces, I spend so much time point pulling to get everything just perfect.
Organic objects should have imperfections, but that does not mean the mesh should have any imperfections.
90% of my time spent point pulling is just spinning and turning my object and 10% is moving the verts.
quad remesher
What do you think about cars? Could you model a car without subd?
i dont model cars mate, scifi vehicles are easy without subd, we even have tuts on it gumroad.com/l/GnHrV
@@PonteRyuurui I don´t really care for car modelling, but unfortunally I need one for my scene.Thanks, your scifi vehicle looks awesome!
@@3dsmax_metronomus480 for traditional cars with tons of curved srufaces you might be better off with quad modleling, or you could sculpt it and retopo, of model it and use quad remesher addon
@@PonteRyuurui Thanks, I appreciate your advice!
Good discussion. Less is more.
Hi, I'm new to 3D modeling and got a question to ask... Would ngons be hard to be textured? I'm honestly very comfortable with the workflow you shown and would probably follow it, but without addons like Mesh Machine and stuff, wouldn't the topology be a mess? How would you handle your object's topology after you finish setting your initial object's shape? (I'm sorry if it sound sarcastic, but I honestly want to dive deep in 3D modeling and honestly want to know the answer TwT)
If you're new this may be a tad too advanced but we cover the entire workflow for ngon based game assets www.blenderbros.com/the-blender-bros-hard-surface-game-asset-course-2-0
Yeah, I talk around with the Blender Guru Discord group and understand what to learn now, Thank you for your reply!
nice hybrid technique. the truth is also that alot of animation doesnt need quads either. what you need is enough somewhat regularized across an area topology. even anim meshes in a game engine get triangulated as well. triangles draw faster on video cards. people have these old ideas and go for the perfect when 90% of the time the good will suffice....
yup, exactly, evenness of polies is the key to clean shading on curved or bending surfaces.
Always forget about lattice, it really is great.
yup
The question is : will this boolean mesh look so good with some reflecticr material especially near beveled holes.
if geo is dense enough yes, if it doesnt, then normal transfer the data
@@PonteRyuurui ok. Thank for you quick response. Awesome channel. I need to learn this normal data transfer. This method works only with all bools applied yep?
@@Wzxxx yes, there are few ways you can do it. I have vids on mesh machine n transfer, and Josh has for vanilla. You could also look up our Boolean Handbook where we show a lot of techniques. www.blenderbros.com/products
xecuntville. cool file u got there
haha ya it's a game project, evil aliens, thus xenocunts
I would argue that the point in using subd is it is animation and sculpt ready, 2 of the most common pipeline aspects of 3D. That static piece you made that you think didn't matter, in a production pipeline has now be changed at the whim of production, and will need to be animated for example.
Learning to use subd is considerably harder than what you are doing, so I know for a fact I could learn how to model your way in a couple minutes (and it's great for visualizations, rough drafts), but if someone learns the easy way, can they learn how to model subd in a couple of minutes? It would take weeks or months.
Learn the hard way first, it makes everything easy by comparison.
Only the parts of the mesh that will be doing 90% of the animation or movement need more topology. Elbows, knees, mouth eyes etc etc for pinching and stretching issues. The rest does not. Sculping of course needs more for detail but thats not the model that will be in game etc. Its just for the detail baking to the low poly. Its useless anywhere else except a render. SubD adds to everything and is a lazy go to for too many people.
@@BobJones-cd9mt It sounds to me like you don't actually know how to use subD properly. It's certainly not a "lazy go to" (in a video about Hardops and Boxcutter) lol But well, good luck getting a decent job in VFX, animation, advertising, movies and TV with that attitude.
@@niemanickurwa My attitude has got me self employed with my own business. Before that Ive been hired for animation over the last 14 years for combat 3D meter systems. Back then lag was a big issue in the gaming world so we learnt to build things as simple as possible while looking the best possible. So my background is low detail Prim models high detail textures. Im currently involved in another gaming combat system in Virtual 3D simulator (after being out of it completely for the last 5 years building my other business. so relearning blender etc). Animating, and building assets. Nothing to do with luck, everything to do with my attitude :). Am I a pro at blender or mesh? heck no i have heaps to learn but I avoid un-necessary work. Yes SubD is useful. It depends what and how and where the mesh is to be used. A lot of people think of how to add detail to their model or make it look better faster and they click "Sub D". I dont use hard ops or box cutter but seriously considering it as well as learning hard surface modelling to a higher level. Your entitled to your opinion as Im I. All the best.
Hello from Russia)) What you use for do it this things? I am impressed because I use it very often subdivision
Not sure what you mean, but if you are talking about addons, then it was hardops and boxcuter.
@@PonteRyuurui Thanks!
I enjoy your videos. "You can cut the shit out of it." lol
Blender gangsta's here
that's the place!
peachy
Sir some people hates N-gon how i tell them the N Gon is ok
show them
but what about "INDUSTRY STANDARDs?"
fuck'em
@@PonteRyuurui lol
There isnt really a standard workflow. It's the result that matters
@@SoftBreadSoftware boom! That is it.
WTF your voice like screamer ahahah am scared))) thanks for video
it is meant to haunt you when you procrastinate and find excuses not to study hard surface
uuu scaryyy :))))))) u funny
it has been mentioned
Finly someone say somthing about this if you make models for game you can forget subdiv.....polycount, in som situation caracter modeling or somthing organic very rare, this is old modeling technic.....evrybody subdiv subdiv subdiv that mashes don have value that mesh canot sell you have only nice render picture and that is it unable with that amount of poligons and if you use subdiv you must give good amount to get good result.....make low poly mesh to look like milion poligon that is the trick......finly someone say somthing about this......good job.....keep going
cheers mate, yeah ppl like to run on myths
sub d is overrated for cad like hs imo.
subd is overrated in general