An additional benefit of using balanced differential XLR connections is improved S/N ratio due to pro level voltage levels. On most pro sound equipment with XLRs, the +4 dBu standard pro audio voltage reference level equals 1.23 Vrms. On most equipment with RCA connectors, the -10 dBV standard voltage reference level for consumer (and some pro audio use) equals 0.316 Vrms. Noise has a peak-to-peak voltage level that adds to signal voltage level. An audiophile amp, say a Class-A amplifier then amplifies S+N together in its amplification stages. In this example, one cannot just amplify S. S+N are amplified together. Hence, a much higher voltage S relative to N gives a better S/N ratio. A dominant S voltage level (1.23 Vrms for XLR vs .316 Vrms for RCA) will always result in a better S/N ratio. Using XLR pro voltage levels spank RCA consumer voltage levels here. With regard to the TH-cam video, one can understand XLR differential noise cancellation with simple arithmetic. Mathematically, a differential transmission system takes a signal S, and inverts it to -S. Signal (S) is then transmitted on one conductor and (-S) on the other. Both conductors pick up noise, so the first conductor carries S+N and the other conductor carries -S+N. At the receiving end, the -S+N signal is inverted a second time...yes, again! - (-S+N) = S-N. The conducted signals S+N and S-N are added together, giving 2S + N - N. The noise is cancelled, leaving us 2S. This was depicted in the TH-cam video. However, the dominating effect of using a higher S voltage level relative to a much lower (hopefully) N noise voltage level wasn't illustrated with a video example. Hopefully this explanation, while not visual, helps explain a second benefit of using XLR connectors with pro-audio voltage levels.
This puzzle is so complicated. It's not just the switch from XLR to RCA, but also from one brand of cable to another. Back when I lived in Raleigh and started in high end audio by coming to your store, I was sold on Transparent Audio Labs and I still have the RCA cables. Yesterday I swapped out from AQ XLR's to the TAL MW+ RCAs between a temporary Schiit Jotenheim while my PS Audio Stellar GCD is being repaired and my Levinson 333. The difference is substantial and also confusing. My memory of going from XLR to RCA with the PS Audio piece was that I would never use RCA between the DAC/pre and the amp again, but I prefer it between these two pieces. Clearly, the way the output and input circuits are interacting seems to matter a lot more than just "XLR is lower noise."
Hello! i have questions. I have issues in car audio with very quiet ground loops, but the biggest problem is bad sound quality (mainly bass) and distortions. Balanced wires can fix this problem? All is okay, this same points, 5 year of fight with weak bass, who most often, but not always, plays on hot days much better, loud, soft, in cold weahers its hard to get nice, loud and clean bass. Thanks. Weird looks: Subs (or amp) pickup 20 meters away from my car, others driving cars, and cause bass fading (outside car, sometimes i must change positon to hear fading, sometimes next to trunk, sometimes in fronts windows all outside car, When lightning struck nearby to me, i lost more bass only under 34hz, more weak, more empty quality.) I check with my cheap osciloscope RCA end (to amp) signal looks like clean but in output amplifier like dirty, amplified noise, its possible its from rca problem noise? Thanks! Thanks!
Great topic and discussion here. There are a lot of things to consider. While I try to use balanced connections when possible, I’ve had some great gear that wasn’t fully balanced or only had rcas and this can still work very well depending on the setup.
If using RCA cables it is best to get ones that are made with microphone wire. Something like Mogami w2534 and some nice connectors like Canare F10 connectors. I made some and have had no issues with hum or hiss. You can find some that are already made with microphone wire and nicer connects. They tend to cost about the same as XLR cables.
Even after auditioning 3 separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! That told me the unwanted faint background signal noise I had been experiencing had nothing to do with the actual components. Therefore, my attention changed to the cables. And even then It was only on the third occasion after I finally purchased shielded cables that the noise floor within my small room finally came down to satisfactory levels. Cables often act as antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise (RF/EMI) within my small room used to disappear/dissipate. The more cables I shield, the quieter my room becomes. In fact, the last group of cables I shielded were my HDMI's and Lo behold the room became slightly quieter again.. When friends come round I used to show them how loud the system goes. Nowadays, I prefer to press pause and show them how quiet it goes. None of them gets it of course 😂
What if you have noise using RCA connections between pre and power amps which do not have XLR/Balanced inputs and outputs? Is there any benefit from running XLR cables with RCA-XLR adapters on both ends of the cable run? If not are there standalone boxes that truly convert unbalanced signals to balanced signals & connectors and visa versa so you that you can benefit from XLR cabling?
@@shaunrichards744 are you seriously claiming I’m concerned with spec over music? Did you READ my statement stating that I have noise! The noise in the system is literally interfering with the enjoyment of music. I said nothing about spec. Don’t bother to reply to my comment if you don’t understand, don’t want to read or understand, or just want to start an argument for no reason whatsoever. In fact, I’d kindly ask you delete your comment as not to confuse others about what my question is.
You're focusing on the cables when the real issue is the components the cables plug into. A balanced component needs a 3 conductor cable. A single ended component needs 2. If you use xlr/rca adaptors, you will only be using 2 of the 3 conductors in your balanced cable. An rca connector can't handle the 3rd conductor, so its not used. So, if you use the adaptors, its exactly the same as using regular rca cables. To answer your question about a stand alone box, yes, they do make them. They're called direct or DI boxes. You don't see them much in home applications, but they can be used. DI boxes do exactly what you are asking for. Then convert an unbalanced signal to balanced so you can either make an unbalanced component compatible with a balanced component, or use another DI box on both ends so you can run longer cables and benefit from noise cancelling. Any music store will have them. Before I would do any of that, however, I would first do some experimenting. Your noise may not be something a balanced connection will fix. It could be, but not always. The first thing I would do is try some different rca cables. The ones you currently have may be poor quality, or damaged. Same thing with your power cords. If you have some extras that are not in use, try them too. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an extension cord and try some different outlets. The point is to try cheap and easy fixes first and upgrade to pain in the ass fixes only if you have to.
You can cut noise with RFI noise filters or magnets on good quality shielded RCA CABLES. It also depends on the number of gear and what type of gear you use. Solid state and tube ampliers and preamps have different circuit and semi conductor designs and different signatures. It is why most audiophiles use tube systems with higher grade RCA unbalanced cables. I have both XLR balancec and RCA unbalanced systems, tubes and solid states. I don’t really hear much differences. Been into audio since the 1970’s. I love collecting many audio gear including XLR and RCA cables. To me it is more preference the same as loudspeakers or anything else. I do not believe the word best in anything as there are a lot of great designs and engineering including home made gear which includes techs who know how to build custom cables, gear and speakers. What matters is what YOU like not what others say😊
When I was a young photojournalist/video producer, I often heard “little cable, little sound. Big cable, big sound” in reference to live recording microphone gear. The only mics & camera audio I ever used was XLR. If you’re using 1/8” or 1/4” jacks for pro audio, you’re doing it wrong.
XLR is just a 3 conductor connector. A lot of balanced components use TRS which is also a 3 pin connector. There are a few companies that use DIN. They all work exactly the same way. The components that you're connecting is what really matters. Its not to uncommon to see a company put xlr connectors on their gear that isn't balanced. (In case you're wondering why, they do it to trick people into thinking the component is balanced, when its not. And, yes, its unethical, at least in my opinion. If you read the fine print, is says the unit supports balanced cables, and they do. They just don't use the 3rd pin, so its identical to using an rca cable.). Anyway, its just good to aware of some of the details, and if you ever come across a component that's balanced with TRS connectors, there's no reason to not use them. They're identical.
Thoughts on using both within a system? For example if the power amp for my theater speakers accepts XLRs but the amp for my subs only accepts RCA. Would it make sense to run XLR from my processor to the speaker amp and RCA to the subs, or just use RCA for all audio channels to be consistent?
Its ok to mix, but if your power amp is close to your processor, it may not be necessary. If a long run, yes. If you do change, remember to redo your levels as balanced is louder. Thanks for watching
An additional benefit of using balanced differential XLR connections is improved S/N ratio due to pro level voltage levels.
On most pro sound equipment with XLRs, the +4 dBu standard pro audio voltage reference level equals 1.23 Vrms.
On most equipment with RCA connectors, the -10 dBV standard voltage reference level for consumer (and some pro audio use) equals 0.316 Vrms.
Noise has a peak-to-peak voltage level that adds to signal voltage level. An audiophile amp, say a Class-A amplifier then amplifies S+N together in its amplification stages. In this example, one cannot just amplify S. S+N are amplified together. Hence, a much higher voltage S relative to N gives a better S/N ratio.
A dominant S voltage level (1.23 Vrms for XLR vs .316 Vrms for RCA) will always result in a better S/N ratio. Using XLR pro voltage levels spank RCA consumer voltage levels here.
With regard to the TH-cam video, one can understand XLR differential noise cancellation with simple arithmetic.
Mathematically, a differential transmission system takes a signal S, and inverts it to -S. Signal (S) is then transmitted on one conductor and (-S) on the other.
Both conductors pick up noise, so the first conductor carries S+N and the other conductor carries -S+N.
At the receiving end, the -S+N signal is inverted a second time...yes, again!
- (-S+N) = S-N.
The conducted signals S+N and S-N are added together, giving 2S + N - N. The noise is cancelled, leaving us 2S. This was depicted in the TH-cam video.
However, the dominating effect of using a higher S voltage level relative to a much lower (hopefully) N noise voltage level wasn't illustrated with a video example. Hopefully this explanation, while not visual, helps explain a second benefit of using XLR connectors with pro-audio voltage levels.
Thanks so much for sharing with our community! Yes, that is another solid gain, especially for long cable runs.
This puzzle is so complicated. It's not just the switch from XLR to RCA, but also from one brand of cable to another. Back when I lived in Raleigh and started in high end audio by coming to your store, I was sold on Transparent Audio Labs and I still have the RCA cables. Yesterday I swapped out from AQ XLR's to the TAL MW+ RCAs between a temporary Schiit Jotenheim while my PS Audio Stellar GCD is being repaired and my Levinson 333. The difference is substantial and also confusing. My memory of going from XLR to RCA with the PS Audio piece was that I would never use RCA between the DAC/pre and the amp again, but I prefer it between these two pieces. Clearly, the way the output and input circuits are interacting seems to matter a lot more than just "XLR is lower noise."
Yes, its not always a clear answer and many times depends on the balanced circuitry of the components being connected. Thanks for watching
Hello! i have questions. I have issues in car audio with very quiet ground loops, but the biggest problem is bad sound quality (mainly bass) and distortions. Balanced wires can fix this problem? All is okay, this same points, 5 year of fight with weak bass, who most often, but not always, plays on hot days much better, loud, soft, in cold weahers its hard to get nice, loud and clean bass. Thanks.
Weird looks: Subs (or amp) pickup 20 meters away from my car, others driving cars, and cause bass fading (outside car, sometimes i must change positon to hear fading, sometimes next to trunk, sometimes in fronts windows all outside car, When lightning struck nearby to me, i lost more bass only under 34hz, more weak, more empty quality.) I check with my cheap osciloscope RCA end (to amp) signal looks like clean but in output amplifier like dirty, amplified noise, its possible its from rca problem noise? Thanks!
Thanks!
Sorry, we don't do any car audio. We'd recommend reaching out to a dealer that sells the products you're talking about. Hope you get it fixed!
Great topic and discussion here. There are a lot of things to consider. While I try to use balanced connections when possible, I’ve had some great gear that wasn’t fully balanced or only had rcas and this can still work very well depending on the setup.
Thanks for sharing!
If using RCA cables it is best to get ones that are made with microphone wire. Something like Mogami w2534 and some nice connectors like Canare F10 connectors. I made some and have had no issues with hum or hiss. You can find some that are already made with microphone wire and nicer connects. They tend to cost about the same as XLR cables.
Thanks for sharing!
@@AudioAdvice no problem.
Great video and explanation! Thanks for putting this one together 👍
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching :)
Even after auditioning 3 separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! That told me the unwanted faint background signal noise I had been experiencing had nothing to do with the actual components. Therefore, my attention changed to the cables. And even then It was only on the third occasion after I finally purchased shielded cables that the noise floor within my small room finally came down to satisfactory levels.
Cables often act as antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise (RF/EMI) within my small room used to disappear/dissipate.
The more cables I shield, the quieter my room becomes. In fact, the last group of cables I shielded were my HDMI's and Lo behold the room became slightly quieter again..
When friends come round I used to show them how loud the system goes. Nowadays, I prefer to press pause and show them how quiet it goes.
None of them gets it of course 😂
Haha, that is awesome! Thanks for sharing!
Always wondered if you can really hear the difference for lengths that are 10 feet or less.....
Yep, there are a lot of variables. Thanks for sharing
What if you have noise using RCA connections between pre and power amps which do not have XLR/Balanced inputs and outputs? Is there any benefit from running XLR cables with RCA-XLR adapters on both ends of the cable run?
If not are there standalone boxes that truly convert unbalanced signals to balanced signals & connectors and visa versa so you that you can benefit from XLR cabling?
@@shaunrichards744 are you seriously claiming I’m concerned with spec over music? Did you READ my statement stating that I have noise! The noise in the system is literally interfering with the enjoyment of music. I said nothing about spec. Don’t bother to reply to my comment if you don’t understand, don’t want to read or understand, or just want to start an argument for no reason whatsoever. In fact, I’d kindly ask you delete your comment as not to confuse others about what my question is.
Hey Mike, thanks for the question! Please reach out to our experts at audioadvice.com and they can help you out with this! Cheers!
You're focusing on the cables when the real issue is the components the cables plug into. A balanced component needs a 3 conductor cable. A single ended component needs 2. If you use xlr/rca adaptors, you will only be using 2 of the 3 conductors in your balanced cable. An rca connector can't handle the 3rd conductor, so its not used. So, if you use the adaptors, its exactly the same as using regular rca cables.
To answer your question about a stand alone box, yes, they do make them. They're called direct or DI boxes. You don't see them much in home applications, but they can be used. DI boxes do exactly what you are asking for. Then convert an unbalanced signal to balanced so you can either make an unbalanced component compatible with a balanced component, or use another DI box on both ends so you can run longer cables and benefit from noise cancelling. Any music store will have them.
Before I would do any of that, however, I would first do some experimenting. Your noise may not be something a balanced connection will fix. It could be, but not always. The first thing I would do is try some different rca cables. The ones you currently have may be poor quality, or damaged. Same thing with your power cords. If you have some extras that are not in use, try them too. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an extension cord and try some different outlets. The point is to try cheap and easy fixes first and upgrade to pain in the ass fixes only if you have to.
Very good video.
Make a video with the pros and cons of bi-wiring and bi-amping and normal connection.
Thanks.
We have! th-cam.com/video/6481sAoyRpk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=C4CehG_FzmLKwwFP
@@AudioAdvice Thanks.
Personally enjoy balanced more where possible. Definitely less noise in systems.
Thanks for sharing!
You can cut noise with RFI noise filters or magnets on good quality shielded RCA CABLES. It also depends on the number of gear and what type of gear you use. Solid state and tube ampliers and preamps have different circuit and semi conductor designs and different signatures. It is why most audiophiles use tube systems with higher grade RCA unbalanced cables. I have both XLR balancec and RCA unbalanced systems, tubes and solid states. I don’t really hear much differences. Been into audio since the 1970’s. I love collecting many audio gear including XLR and RCA cables. To me it is more preference the same as loudspeakers or anything else. I do not believe the word best in anything as there are a lot of great designs and engineering including home made gear which includes techs who know how to build custom cables, gear and speakers. What matters is what YOU like not what others say😊
Very informative.
Glad it was helpful!
When I was a young photojournalist/video producer, I often heard “little cable, little sound. Big cable, big sound” in reference to live recording microphone gear. The only mics & camera audio I ever used was XLR. If you’re using 1/8” or 1/4” jacks for pro audio, you’re doing it wrong.
Thanks for sharing!
XLR is just a 3 conductor connector. A lot of balanced components use TRS which is also a 3 pin connector. There are a few companies that use DIN. They all work exactly the same way. The components that you're connecting is what really matters. Its not to uncommon to see a company put xlr connectors on their gear that isn't balanced. (In case you're wondering why, they do it to trick people into thinking the component is balanced, when its not. And, yes, its unethical, at least in my opinion. If you read the fine print, is says the unit supports balanced cables, and they do. They just don't use the 3rd pin, so its identical to using an rca cable.). Anyway, its just good to aware of some of the details, and if you ever come across a component that's balanced with TRS connectors, there's no reason to not use them. They're identical.
Good video
Thanks!!
Thoughts on using both within a system? For example if the power amp for my theater speakers accepts XLRs but the amp for my subs only accepts RCA. Would it make sense to run XLR from my processor to the speaker amp and RCA to the subs, or just use RCA for all audio channels to be consistent?
Its ok to mix, but if your power amp is close to your processor, it may not be necessary. If a long run, yes. If you do change, remember to redo your levels as balanced is louder. Thanks for watching