Which one surprises you most? Do any bother you? Let us know in the comments! For more content like this, click here: th-cam.com/video/zVjdCo_ZDuE/w-d-xo.html Don't forget to play our Live Trivia (www.watchmojo.com/play) games at 3pm EST for a chance to win cash! The faster you answer, the more points you get!
@@chosenchild8383 In most cases, sure. But in some cases the artist also did most, if not all, of the writing. Some examples would be Starlin with Thanos, and Ditko with both Spidey and Dr. Strange. Stan Lee initially claimed to have written/created Spidey but Ditko eventually contested that claim stating that he did most, if not all of the writing. Most people in the industry have agreed with Ditko on that.
The connections between Deadpool and Deathstroke are that they are both comic book mercenaries and masked, ruthless, gun-wielding swordsmen with healing factors. Both also have very similar names (Wade Wilson and Slade Wilson, respectively). This is also a battle of opposites, as Deadpool is a chatterbox who never takes anything seriously while Deathstroke is usually silent and always serious. Interestingly, Deadpool's character was originally meant to be a direct parody of Deathstroke, thus their glaring similarities.
Wade:"Actually, Sladey, what makes me so different and special than you are, Is the fact that I'm colorful and comedic, while you're not, I have the ability to break the 4th wall, whatever I want to, While you can't." "And the best thing is, I'm played by the one and only, Ryan Reynolds himself." "Who was born to play me in every single way."
Superman was directly taken from Hugo Danner, nothing original about him either. Superman was a replica of Danner in powers and backstory to the point they had to rework the character in the 40's to avoid a copyright lawsuit they were going to lose.
@@c.dipeshanand5552 nah hes right tbh - nova corps was a copy of green lantern corps - thanos is a copy of darkseid - xmen is a copy of doom patrol - black cat is a copy of catwoman - squadron supreme is a copy of justice league - thunderbolts is a copy of suicide squad - vision is a copy of red tornado - doctor strange is a copy of doctor fate - sentry is a copy of superman these copies and ripoffs happen because marvel and dc sometimes share the same writers and tbh if it werent for each company copying each other i doubt they'd survive today
Since everyone is always saying how they want the old Hulk, James Gunn should make Damage his Hulk in his DC universe and show him just poppin off loll
See? Even DC also copied some of Marvel's characters.(Just like how Marvel copied some of DC's characters) Marvel and DC are pretty much half-brothers from different universes. Just like Thanos and Darkseid.
You left out how Cyborg was inspired from Marvel's Deathlok. Co creator George Perez's first published work was from Astonishing Tales # 25 which was the debut of Deathlok the Demolisher.
Some claim Marvel copied DC's Swamp Thing, while others claim DC copied Marvel's Man Thing. Neither is true. Both Marvel and DC actually drew inspiration from Heap, in the same way George of the Jungle and Ka-Zar both copied Tarzan.
Not a ripoff, a parody, a comedic version with completely opposite attributes. And Redtool is very much a self aware parody of Deadpool. So yeah, full circle.
I think ghost rider and spectre are truly similar because both of them are agents of vengeance who uses their powers to avenge the innocent and punish the guilty who committ horrific crimes against the innocent
Has anyone noticed how DC and Marvel have become the defining mythological pantheon of our era and how scientists and historians will likely study them like we study Roman and Greek pantheons, thousands of years down the line? There will certainly be studies done about the cultural, anthropological and social factors around these mythological figures' creation and their impact in our societies, values, beliefs and media representation.
Fun fact, Spiderman was introduced in Amazing Fantasy # 15 in 1962. Tarantula, from DC, first appeared in Star Spangled Comics # 1 in 1941. However, Stan Lee was in the army by 1942 and he didn't know about Tarantula. Tarantula was a bit of an obscure character at the time so it's not really that Stan copied Tarantula if he didn't know he existed. That's not to say he didn't know about the character by the time Spiderman became a character in official capacity. But it's heavily doubted that he was a copy of Tarantula. From what I recall, Tarantula could stick to walls and whatnot but it wasn't because of super powers, he just had suction cups and guns that shoot nylon webbing.
Actually, the real DC equivalent of the Lizard is Man-Bat, as they are both sympathetic scientists who are desperate to create a formula to cure their disabilities, which turned into ferocious monsters when the side effects appear.
Batman and Spider-Man for a long time used a similar formula for their villains. Batman's villains were generally victims of 'great personal trauma' origins and this is their way of handling it, just like Bats. Spidey's villains were usually victims of 'science gone wrong' origins and that's how they are handling it, just like Spidey. But you are right, Man-Bat and The Lizard are both 'science gone wrong' type with very Jekyll and Hyde personality splits between the man and the monster, making them unlike any of the rest.
Did someone not proofread and check this video for inconsistencies. We get that comics take from one another but any fan knows this video needs a serious re-edit.
@@EvilMonstrous17 to be fair, there was also a Top 10 DC and Marvel copycats, with 9 Marvel and 1 DC. But I don't remember how many entries were the same
Top 20 Greatest Villains Teams in DC Comics! Top 10 Greatest Batman Anti-Heroes! X-Men VS Teen Titans! Top 20 Greatest Superman Villains! Top 10 Shazam Villains! Top 10 Fantastic Four Villains!
What about Loose Cannon? DC's first Hulk attempt. Created by Jeph Loeb & Lee Moder, not only he gets stronger when he gets angry, but also can his color from blue to purple then red and finally chalk white when he overpowered the Eradicator.
Wasn’t Hulk a copycat of Solomon Grundy in the first place with the monstrous appearance and the strength except Hulk is a hero while Grundy is a zombie?
Here’s one most people forget because they flew so much under the radar. SUGAR AND SPICE from Batman forever . They’re knock offs of Emma Frost and Selene of marvel’s the hellfire club.
Killer Croc The Lizard and H.I.V.E. A.I.M. and New Teen Titans Giant-Size X-Men and Beard Hunter The Punisher and Lobo Wolverine and Damage Hulk and Bumble Bee The Wasp and Red Lion Black Panther and Lord Havok Doctor Doom and Red Tool Deadpool and Swamp Thing Man-Thing and Imperiex Galactius and Guardian Commander Steel, & General Glory Captain America and Aquaman Namor the Submariner surprises me the most and bother me on the comics and I like Marvel and DC
I ain't even mad. As long those two still don't understand that crossovers would be welcomed by the fans, let them copy each other so that we get the next closest thing !!
Deathstroke came before Deadpool. Even the name was sort of ripped off. Deathstroke:Slade Wilson First appeared 1980 Deadpool:Wade Wilson first appeared 1990
These are pretty tenuous at best. I thought that they were going to be more outright like Scarecrow and Scarecrow. They are both thin mad scientists that dress up as a scarecrow and have weaponized a fear inducing toxin. One issue of Spider-man has Spidey fighting Scarecrow and remarking: "Wait, I have a Scarecrow... Who knew?"
I know this won't count much since she's a villain but another person you forgot that also counts as a person that has vegetation on them is poison ivy
My favorites are: 20# Both 18# Teen Titans 17# The Punisher 16# Both 15# Hulk 13# Silver Surfer 12# Spider-man 11# Both 10# Sabertooth 9# Both 8# Both 7# Black Panther 6# Doctor Doom 5# Deadpool 4# Both 3# Galactus 2# Captain America 1# Aquaman
lol you can't copy a copy when Deadpool already copied Deathstroke, the creator admitted years ago he copied Deathstroke. Even their names are similar. Slade Wilson then Wade Wilson? DC has taken some ideas from Marvel over the years but not nearly as much as Marvel has taken from DC. Ultimately we wouldn't have Marvel without characters like Superman and Batman. Even Stan Lee was inspired by DC's JL, Doom Patrol and The Challengers of the unknown when he created The Avengers, X-Men and Fantastic Four. You guys better do a top 10 times Marvel copied DC, wouldn't want to look biased now...Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner are both ripoffs of Poseidon, they both even have tridents...
Which one surprises you most? Do any bother you? Let us know in the comments!
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Slade: "He should be saying he's not me, kay? Cause I came out like WAY before he did"
Missing one more out. Catwoman = Black Cat.
Top 40 Best Couples From Both Marvel and DC Universes / Top 40 Best Friendships From Both Marvel and DC Universes
Don’t play ts wimme, been a Sub way too long 😤 y’all BETTA do vice versa also
Do one where marvel copied Dc
both dc and Marvel comics had same writers sometimes so its not surprising
Didn't jack kirby created/designed darkseid (for DC)and thanos (for marvel)
BTW i wrote before ive watched the vid just incase the mention it
@@clintbrew Nope. Jim Starlin created Thanos after Kirby went to DC and created The New Gods (including Darkseid).
Difference between writers and illustrators js
@@chosenchild8383 In most cases, sure. But in some cases the artist also did most, if not all, of the writing. Some examples would be Starlin with Thanos, and Ditko with both Spidey and Dr. Strange. Stan Lee initially claimed to have written/created Spidey but Ditko eventually contested that claim stating that he did most, if not all of the writing. Most people in the industry have agreed with Ditko on that.
The connections between Deadpool and Deathstroke are that they are both comic book mercenaries and masked, ruthless, gun-wielding swordsmen with healing factors. Both also have very similar names (Wade Wilson and Slade Wilson, respectively).
This is also a battle of opposites, as Deadpool is a chatterbox who never takes anything seriously while Deathstroke is usually silent and always serious.
Interestingly, Deadpool's character was originally meant to be a direct parody of Deathstroke, thus their glaring similarities.
unfortunely Marvel stole from DC why dc is bad im not a huge DC fan lol im more Marvel
Deathstroke is older
@@gizmo816able ik unfortunely but DP is way better and funnier lol i said im more a marvel fan xD
but still disney is going to get mad at warner bros too!
Deadpool is deathstroke, they purposely make wade wilson as a joke for DC, and we love both of them, I was there 3000 years ago, and yes, I'm old
X-Men was actually taken from Doom Patrol. Right down to the wheelchair bound leader.
Slade: "He should be saying he's not me, kay? Cause I came out like WAY before he did"
Wade:"Actually, Sladey, what makes me so different and special than you are,
Is the fact that I'm colorful and comedic, while you're not,
I have the ability to break the 4th wall, whatever I want to,
While you can't."
"And the best thing is, I'm played by the one and only, Ryan Reynolds himself."
"Who was born to play me in every single way."
Funny how Deadpool is still way more popular than Deathstroke.
@@l-wolverine2211 And being funny and entertaining.
They copied each other out and that's how they survived, plus if it ain't of superman, we wouldn't have Marvel in the first place.
Superman was directly taken from Hugo Danner, nothing original about him either. Superman was a replica of Danner in powers and backstory to the point they had to rework the character in the 40's to avoid a copyright lawsuit they were going to lose.
It's hilarious how you are crying
@@c.dipeshanand5552 nah hes right tbh
- nova corps was a copy of green lantern corps
- thanos is a copy of darkseid
- xmen is a copy of doom patrol
- black cat is a copy of catwoman
- squadron supreme is a copy of justice league
- thunderbolts is a copy of suicide squad
- vision is a copy of red tornado
- doctor strange is a copy of doctor fate
- sentry is a copy of superman
these copies and ripoffs happen because marvel and dc sometimes share the same writers and tbh if it werent for each company copying each other i doubt they'd survive today
@@idkbrosmthrespect nigga, you put them into their place 🎉
@@idkbrosmthiron man copied Batman.
You totally blew it on one of them. Deathstroke came along WAY before Deadpool!
They covered that at 13:23.
Next video should be times Marvel ripped off DC
Watchmojo SHILLS for Marvel/Disney. You really think that’ll ever happen?
@@robertjones1440 there was Top 10 Marvel copied DC and Top 10 Marvel and DC copycats
@@gevorg1989 link?
@@robertjones1440 sort comments from new to old - I left them in separate comment not a day ago
Bruh I swear WatchMojo is owned by Marvel and Disney...the biased videos show everywhere...
Let's see if we can get a live action crossover featuring all these counterparts.
We all know that Namor the Sub-Mariner came out first before Arthur Curry AKA Aquaman.
Funny part is that Swamp Thing is a lot cooler than Man Thing 🤣
Well, swamp thing had a tv show and 2 movies, man-thing only had a straight to release movie that was horrible...so there's that.
@@empoweredshemphoward He was also in Werewolf by Night and that was a really good iteration of him. Check it out if you haven't, it's fun
And also his name is Man Thing like are we talking a men's junk here or what??,there also should be a female version named Woman Thing.
Swamp Thing is the Okeechobee, and Man-Thing is the local sewage plant TURD.
Both companies steal from each other
Dc more so
Sideways.
One of several characters that are inspired by Spider-Man.
What are the other ones?
@Lionblaze-Prime Black Spider comes mind
Since everyone is always saying how they want the old Hulk, James Gunn should make Damage his Hulk in his DC universe and show him just poppin off loll
List should be named "Stoled from each other".
That does not get clicks.
There's been 2 lists specific for Marvel and one for DC before
I think black spider is the bigger copycat than sideways due to the abilities and name alone.
Deadpool > Red Tool
Family Guy be like: Red Stool
Dead pool is a copy of deathstroke
@@sarriominski3756No he is not, he is a parody, this is a Big diffrent
@@sarriominski3756 And yet, Deadpool is universally acclaimed compared to Deathstroke
But red hood was stole from deathstroke I’m lost
Imitation is a form of flattery.
See?
Even DC also copied some of Marvel's characters.(Just like how Marvel copied some of DC's characters)
Marvel and DC are pretty much half-brothers from different universes.
Just like Thanos and Darkseid.
You left out how Cyborg was inspired from Marvel's Deathlok. Co creator George Perez's first published work was from Astonishing Tales # 25 which was the debut of Deathlok the Demolisher.
Some claim Marvel copied DC's Swamp Thing, while others claim DC copied Marvel's Man Thing. Neither is true. Both Marvel and DC actually drew inspiration from Heap, in the same way George of the Jungle and Ka-Zar both copied Tarzan.
Top 20 Times Cartoon Network Beat Nickelodeon
Yes please!
It never happened
Never forget, Deathstroke came before Deadpool
The neglected MARVEL'S SUPERMAN called HYPERION.
I knew about some of these, but others I didn't know about in the DC universe.
Then why don't you watch dcau or dcamu?
Please do Top 10 Times DC Animated Movies that went TOO FAR.
I think it's been done.
@@empoweredshemphoward Watchmojo doesn’t have it. Trust me. I checked.
I'm thinking of Whatculture, they do the same stuff.
How did Black Spider/Spiderman not make this list… ESPECIALLY, since appearing in Young Justice?!👀🤯🤦🏾♂️
Now do 30 characters Marvel stole from DC.
Rocket Red is more like Marvel's Crimson Dynimo than Iron Man
Ok but the irony is that Deadpool was originally a ripoff of death stroke, so them then making a rip off of Deadpool is a funny way to go full circle
Not a ripoff, a parody, a comedic version with completely opposite attributes. And Redtool is very much a self aware parody of Deadpool. So yeah, full circle.
Deadpool and Aquaman are few of the copycats that surpass the popularity of the original 😂
“They say imitation is the highest form of flattery, but sometimes it’s nothing but a slap in the face.”
I think ghost rider and spectre are truly similar because both of them are agents of vengeance who uses their powers to avenge the innocent and punish the guilty who committ horrific crimes against the innocent
Me: "who are you?!"
B.H.: "I am... The Beard-Hunter"
Me: "... ... *snort"*
Stan Lee said he likes Lobo
Make a list with 20 characters Marvel stole from DC
This list is more like 100
@@cesar6932 i dont disagree
@@marcoguldbrandsen3014 You do realize the foundation of any story is mostly plagiarized, especially with how Batman is a ripoff of Zorro
@@l-wolverine2211 a rip off🤣🤣🤣 Batman is million times more popular
@@l-wolverine2211 and btw what has Zorro to do with Marvel and DC??🤷♂️
When Watch Mojo does a mirror list where Marvel borrows from DC, odds are the members of the Squadron Supreme would fill in the entire list.
Has anyone noticed how DC and Marvel have become the defining mythological pantheon of our era and how scientists and historians will likely study them like we study Roman and Greek pantheons, thousands of years down the line?
There will certainly be studies done about the cultural, anthropological and social factors around these mythological figures' creation and their impact in our societies, values, beliefs and media representation.
I think Superman will be no 1 on their list for research because no other superhero have made as big impact on us as Superman.
@@yashJoshi-hn6bf yeah, it's very likely.
Fun fact, Spiderman was introduced in Amazing Fantasy # 15 in 1962. Tarantula, from DC, first appeared in Star Spangled Comics # 1 in 1941. However, Stan Lee was in the army by 1942 and he didn't know about Tarantula. Tarantula was a bit of an obscure character at the time so it's not really that Stan copied Tarantula if he didn't know he existed. That's not to say he didn't know about the character by the time Spiderman became a character in official capacity. But it's heavily doubted that he was a copy of Tarantula. From what I recall, Tarantula could stick to walls and whatnot but it wasn't because of super powers, he just had suction cups and guns that shoot nylon webbing.
Actually, the real DC equivalent of the Lizard is Man-Bat, as they are both sympathetic scientists who are desperate to create a formula to cure their disabilities, which turned into ferocious monsters when the side effects appear.
Batman and Spider-Man for a long time used a similar formula for their villains. Batman's villains were generally victims of 'great personal trauma' origins and this is their way of handling it, just like Bats. Spidey's villains were usually victims of 'science gone wrong' origins and that's how they are handling it, just like Spidey. But you are right, Man-Bat and The Lizard are both 'science gone wrong' type with very Jekyll and Hyde personality splits between the man and the monster, making them unlike any of the rest.
The Lizard and Killer are different in general, but they are same species as reptiles.
Did someone not proofread and check this video for inconsistencies. We get that comics take from one another but any fan knows this video needs a serious re-edit.
The ones that REALLY got me were:
🌟Deadpool (Wade Wilson) & Deathstroke (Slade Wilson) 🔫
🌟Wolverine (Logan) & Lobo (The Main Man) 🚬
🌟Namor & Aquaman 🌊
Doesn't Rocket Red share more of a similarity with Crimson Dynamo than with Iron Man?
Aquaman is awesome 😎
Marvel alone as over 10 copycat of superman not to talk about all the others characters
You forgot the Black Spider from Young Justice
Wow. I forget how good Laurence Fishbourne voice for Silver Surfer was great.
He's Morpheues in The Matrix
What about you Man Bat and The Lizard? They may turn into two totally different animals but the similarities are definitely there.
Can you do top 20 characters Marvel stole from DC?
They do have a top 10 made years ago
@@gevorg1989 but that was top 10 i want a top 20 like how they did in this video
@@EvilMonstrous17 to be fair, there was also a Top 10 DC and Marvel copycats, with 9 Marvel and 1 DC. But I don't remember how many entries were the same
Lmao wade wilson is slade wilson
So Taskmaster then Deathstroke then Deadpool then Red Tool 😂
You forgot Sportmaster
Top 20 Greatest Villains Teams in DC Comics!
Top 10 Greatest Batman Anti-Heroes!
X-Men VS Teen Titans!
Top 20 Greatest Superman Villains!
Top 10 Shazam Villains!
Top 10 Fantastic Four Villains!
I know that Green monster, it's Broly !
What about Loose Cannon? DC's first Hulk attempt. Created by Jeph Loeb & Lee Moder, not only he gets stronger when he gets angry, but also can his color from blue to purple then red and finally chalk white when he overpowered the Eradicator.
Lobo , wolverine 😂😂😂
Wolverine is a rip of timber wolf.
How would darkseid fair in the marvel universe
Wasn’t Hulk a copycat of Solomon Grundy in the first place with the monstrous appearance and the strength except Hulk is a hero while Grundy is a zombie?
Deadpool? 😂😂😂😂😂
Here’s one most people forget because they flew so much under the radar. SUGAR AND SPICE from Batman forever . They’re knock offs of Emma Frost and Selene of marvel’s the hellfire club.
I would bring Dr Doom to DC to see who he would kill, and how the fight with the justice league would go 😂
I'd like to see that! 😆
Can't forget Professor Chaos with lord havoc
Killer Croc The Lizard and H.I.V.E. A.I.M. and New Teen Titans Giant-Size X-Men and Beard Hunter The Punisher and Lobo Wolverine and Damage Hulk and Bumble Bee The Wasp and Red Lion Black Panther and Lord Havok Doctor Doom and Red Tool Deadpool and Swamp Thing Man-Thing and Imperiex Galactius and Guardian Commander Steel, & General Glory Captain America and Aquaman Namor the Submariner surprises me the most and bother me on the comics and I like Marvel and DC
if some ya didnt know on deadpool vs deathstroke, deathstroke was intraduced in 1980 where deadpool came a decade later
I’d love to see a Batman vs iron man video comparing the 2 guys strengths and weaknesses
Beast boy: What's up Deadpool
Slade: It's Slade.
Beast boy: Sure Deadpool
Slade: 🤬😡.......
He was right, though. Slade debuted way before Deadpool came around.
Black Noir: ........... 😊
Please make comoc pages' screenshots of bogger quality and resolution, so we can magnify and read them
I love comic book rivalry!
Marvel already has a Russian Iron Man. He's called Crimson Dynamo
I ain't even mad. As long those two still don't understand that crossovers would be welcomed by the fans, let them copy each other so that we get the next closest thing !!
Deathstroke came before Deadpool. Even the name was sort of ripped off.
Deathstroke:Slade Wilson First appeared 1980
Deadpool:Wade Wilson first appeared 1990
And as of recently this Ikaris guy is definitely a great value Superman. Maybe flash and quicksilver
After this can y'all do Top 20 We Want To See John Wick fight characters
Marvel already has two versions of people, from Russia, who wear power armor. Crimson Dynamo and Titanium Man.
These are pretty tenuous at best. I thought that they were going to be more outright like Scarecrow and Scarecrow. They are both thin mad scientists that dress up as a scarecrow and have weaponized a fear inducing toxin. One issue of Spider-man has Spidey fighting Scarecrow and remarking: "Wait, I have a Scarecrow... Who knew?"
DC's Scarecrow cane first
Aquaman is *so* much like Namor that his movie depiction is a clone for all intents and purposes.
Yeah, Momoa would have been a much better pick for Namor than Aquaman.
I prefer aquaman over an elf who wears panties from atlanties 😂😂😂😂
Don't mock the atlantian panties till you try them.
Lobo is NOT a wolverine rip off
rocket red kinda remind me of crimson dynamo
I like how all of DC’s best characters were original.
I know this won't count much since she's a villain but another person you forgot that also counts as a person that has vegetation on them is poison ivy
To be fair, Doomsday and Damage are definitely inspired by the Hulk.
My favorites are:
20# Both
18# Teen Titans
17# The Punisher
16# Both
15# Hulk
13# Silver Surfer
12# Spider-man
11# Both
10# Sabertooth
9# Both
8# Both
7# Black Panther
6# Doctor Doom
5# Deadpool
4# Both
3# Galactus
2# Captain America
1# Aquaman
Missed qn opportunity for "The Watcher" and his double "Tempest Fuganaut".
Yeah, they won't make reverse lost on marvel, cuz those are like 50.
There’s no, like, producer on these videos who says “Um, that’s not how you pronounce that word at all”?
Spiderman to DC.
lol you can't copy a copy when Deadpool already copied Deathstroke, the creator admitted years ago he copied Deathstroke. Even their names are similar. Slade Wilson then Wade Wilson? DC has taken some ideas from Marvel over the years but not nearly as much as Marvel has taken from DC. Ultimately we wouldn't have Marvel without characters like Superman and Batman. Even Stan Lee was inspired by DC's JL, Doom Patrol and The Challengers of the unknown when he created The Avengers, X-Men and Fantastic Four. You guys better do a top 10 times Marvel copied DC, wouldn't want to look biased now...Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner are both ripoffs of Poseidon, they both even have tridents...
Top 10 anime final battles that were short but sweet
I feel the AIM and HIVE connection is going far
Nobody can prove anything.
disney is gonna get mad at warner after seeing this video
Not only all that but Batman was taken from Will Eisner's The Spirit.
If Iron Man was from Russia he would be crimson dynamo.
“Mom, can we have Deadpool?”
“No son, we have Deadpool at home.”
Deadpool at home: Red Tool
I keep forgetting who is ripping off who
No cap the title almost triggered me, but y’all got it 😂 they’ve both copied each other though
I think if you do a list like this you should do the reverse also.
I think they did already
@@timv82 fair enough.
What about Doctor/Professor Hugo Strange, who has the same name as Marvel’s Doctor Strange?
Huh, had no idea that Deathstroke was copied after Deadpool. Guess it makes sense now.
You have it backwards. Deadpool was copied from Deathstroke.
@@RejectHumanityReturn2Monke, gotcha.
@@chadgaming8288 Deathstroke is famous teen titans villain, don't you watch og teen titans?
@@yashJoshi-hn6bf, don’t have HBO Max. Now called Max.