Music: how loud is loud?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- Presentation of research into loudness of music in live music and relevance to audio measurements, testing and evaluation. Shown are the typical misunderstanding of using workplace safety standards and wrongly applying them to music consumption.
Discussion thread: www.audiosciencereview.com/fo...
AES E-LIBRARY
Dynamic-Range Issues in the Modern Digital Audio Environment
www.aes.org/e-lib/online/brow...
Dynamic Range: How Quiet is Quiet?
www.audiosciencereview.com/fo...
power, efficiency, levels, balanced, impedance
diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Thank you for continuing to raise the bar for these products. Audiophiles love to complain about low dynamic range in mainstream music but completely forget about how dynamic range works when their favorite product is in question.
Because dynamic is part of magic feeling in music. Lack of dynamic = boring
Thank you for the videos, Amir. This was, like all the others dense and filled with information that would not be readily available to the average person. What you are doing is genuinely, an incredible service to those of us who want to learn / understand these complex topics. Your years of experience and knowledge that you've gained is not something light or easily achieved, and you so openly sharing it, is massively appreciated by me and many others.
Amir, I am a 69-year-old retired electronic and audio engineer and have worked in recording studios and in research at the CBS Technology Center in the 1980s and I would just like to say up front that I totally agree with your view and explanation of the issue of loudness and hearing damage. Having extensive hearing tests back in the 1970s in the US Navy Submarine Force and in the 2010s as a contractor to the US Air Force, and having been exposed many times to music at high (105dBA AVERAGE) to very high (115dBA AVERAGE) levels, I can say with authority that listening to a song or two at these levels does not produce Permanent Threshold Shifts (permanent hearing loss) at least in my case having listened to loud music for over 50 years. The key is to limit the duration of the exposure to 5 or 10 minutes at a time and letting the ears rest for a while (maybe 15 minutes) with silence or quiet music before resuming any further onslaught of loud music, quiet music being in the 70s dBA range or so. The ears have two muscles (the tensor tympani and stapedius) that work to limit the excursion of the eardrum and cochlea from loud sounds, but like any muscles, they tire with time and need time to recover. So you need to allow a rest period just like when doing a workout. As long as this is observed, one can enjoy music at very high levels without worrying about PERMANENT hearing loss. Temporary Threshold Shifts will occur but will fade with time. Exposure to long durations of loud music as in a rock concert can be dangerous and this is why earplugs should be worn or moving away from the speakers to a much lower level location should be done as you mentioned. Good job on this!
PS - Peak levels do not hurt the ears as they are too short to produce any clinical effect and are not registered by typical SPL meters. They are of course easily measured on an oscilloscope as you pointed out and should be accounted for when determining the need for power to cleanly reproduce them with a given set of speakers or headphones, listening distance, and desired maximum AVERAGE levels of music playback. I allow 10dB of headroom for rock/pop music and 20dB for other music genres. BTW, 70dBA SPL is typical for conversation levels. How many people listen to music typically at conversation levels unless they are listening for background?
very interesting complement to Amir’s presentation, thank you
Conversation is more in 50 to 60 dB
Thank you. A couple observations if I might. Hearing loss is not an insignificant problem among classical musicians. I used to sell custom musicians plugs. Some musicians who I know tell me that if there is a trombone on stage, they have their plugs handy. This is how they deal with the very real occupational hazard.
Secondly, it is extremely important to be kind to your ears. The form of tinnitus that I have is analogous to phantom limb syndrome. The brain "manufactures/imagines" sound from those damaged nerves, just as amputees sometimes get the sensation that their non-existent limbs are itching. But tinnitus is constant and irreparable. So be kind to your ears.
I listen primarily to classical music in a concert hall. Knowing that no amount of money could buy a system that would faithfully reproduce that sound, I always spent my money on live music rather than on high-end equipment. With the year-long closure of live music venues, I have been moderately upgrading my sound system. I find your reviews and forum a very valuable resource.
there are in fact public records of musicians seeking litigation..
for example the brass section is no joke for the musicians positioned in front of them as the SPL reaches "jet-engine loudness". hrs and hrs or rehearsals do add up..
Yes, orchestra members are at ground zero. They're extremely close to the sound of other instruments.
Hello Amir, I'm Roger Chen, live sound audio mixing/system engineer lives in Taiwan. As a system engineer I do live sound measurements (mostly with Rational Acoustics Smaart software and multiple mics around audience area) and system calibration (EQ, level, delay & phase ect.) as daily basis, so I really like your videos which going form the other end of the audio industry and use measurements data to prove that aside form enjoying music, audio system can be evaluated by science and the result highly correlated to how we hear. I'd like to share my experience in live concerts of all kinds, actually we still follow the hearing protection rule you show in the first page, it's just that live music have a crest factor around 30~14dB, depends on music content, so a concert measured 127dBSPL peak might just have a RMS value around 107dBSPL and with dBA filter it's 97dBA, and there will be intermission every 1 hour session so it doesn't hurt audience hearing. In live house in Taipei that mostly play pop or indie band I used to work at, we have regulations like 105dBA/120dBC is the max RMS level you can have for a show, except maybe for 1 song.
Good point about the break every hour. Also eardrums are living tissue and heal just like any other part of the body. People are acting like a loud noise equals permanent damage.
@@EddyTeetree Eardrum isn't what you have to worry about. Look up mammalian hair cells and realize that the cochlea does not recover from loss of cellular integrity due to inflammation that occurs up to several weeks after a damaging event. The stereocilia can rebuild themselves but once your hair cells are dead they are gone permanently like most of your neurological system.
When the neighbors knocking at the front door, then the music is too loud.
Very good, thanks, Amir! And "No sanctuary here" - pure delight!
It's really good that you stress test equipment and that you measure everything you can. No one else does this. Very well done.
This was a great explanation of SPL loudness. I have an old Radio Shack Realistic sound level meter with a built in condenser mic and analog meter. I have measured some of my music listening sessions at 100 dB constant levels with peaks at 112 +peaks. Never had my ears ringing after those sessions. I have been to concerts where my ears ring afterward though. I think ears ringing is a good indicator of “too loud”.
The quality and rigor of these presentations is on par with university lectures on the topic. You're doing the world a huge service by distributing all of this knowledge in such a way and making it freely available. We are incredibly grateful, and I look forward to more of this content!
Great piano example! I played classical piano as a kid and during two piano arrangements playing Rachmaninov or Tchaikovsky it gets loud but I never thought 104 dB! I’m blaming my piano teacher for hearing damage
Excellent. Peak vs RMS seems to be the source of most of the confusion on this topic.
@Douglas Blake You can account for both. 😂
I knew there was scientific method why you were doing the testing in those 3 different dB levels while I was reading those comments, as Abraham Lincoln said "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"
I really appreciated this Amir. Took me back to university lecture days when I could sit back and absorbs so much delivered so well. Thanks.
Very informative. I started my audio journey believing what "audiophiles" say. But more and more, I'm believing science.
For example, despite many audiophiles' opinions, Harman Target Curve sounds awesome and very neutral to my ears. Most audiophiles hate it though.
Great. It is just amazing how many audiophiles think they know these technical topics just because they have a pair of ears! These topics can be highly technical and people need to put in the time to learn them or refuse to make strong statements about this and that.
In music feeling is more important than technical science thing
@@privacyhelp You had me with "technical science thing" 😂
I think you should give a few moments to think about following analogy - Abstinence without any knowledge about the subject is quite sure way to not get STD but having knowledge of how STD's are transmitted and how to have safe sex is sure way to enjoy more.
I hope this helps! :D
We have to remember that audiophiles are just a tiny fraction of music enjoyers. I've found that many audiophiles prefer a more clinical listening experience which means less bass than the Harman target. In my case I was under the impression that Harman Target was universally praised among audiophiles when I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't for me. Different strokes for different folks.
I tried the harman curve and it sounds great. I like more bass than "neutral" and rolled off highs. The opposite of what "audiophiles" like. They still think more highs equals more detail. Its why speakers like B&W are so popular with them and I despise them or any speakers with a boosted top end.
Once again, a superbly well presented and clear set of arguments. Thank you Amir for your service to the audio community.
Thank you Amir. As always, very informative and zero bullshit. I always come to your channel for accurate reviews and knowledge. Great stuff. 👍
Psychology playing tricks on your perception once more. When I play my loudspeakers, people cover their ears and complain, but when I go to a live venue, suddenly I'm the one who grimaces in pain. And hearing is nothing to disregard or take lightly, it has to last you a lifetime
Well done Amir! I watch every single video you post. I enjoy learning some new things, seeing all your measurements, making everything very easy to follow and understand. Your exacting, and logical which I appreciate having a technical background. I am 59, and have noticed that the old ears aren't what they use to be. As an audiophile, like you I listen to music at a level that sounds good to me, sometimes I crank it up, the dishes and everything in the house rattle. Do I know what db I listen at? No.... Do I care? ....No ...What I care about is clean, distortion, noise free, dynamic sound. (as good as I can get) What matters to me is measurements that prove and show how much distortion, noise ect. is in play at higher db levels. If measurements at that level are good, then listening at lower levels is as good or better! The same goes for my headphone set up, which you had a BIG influence on my choices there!! Keep up the fantastic work!
Thanks yet again for a clear presentation. These are very informative and enjoyable videos.
I'm always learning so much from watching your videos/ lectures. Thanks for putting this out there for us
Thanks for that. I really wish there was more information on this widely available and commonly known.
The difference between say, using a grinder and going to a concert even though they're both 115dB is huge. Weighting and peeks really make a difference. Total exposure time too.
Glad it's not just me who wears ear protection to concerts and live music but still sets headphones to a calculated 100-105dB for those track you really get into.
The app for the FiiO BTR5 has an SPL calculator where you put in impedance and sensitivity and it calculates the output at the volume it's set too. Pretty neat.
thanks for addressing some of my concerns from a previous video.
Now i know why i sold the Focal Clear and never look back again thanks for all the hard work and INFO altogether! That clipping tough is annoying and great to hear that somebody is sane and can explain so that we can understand it.
Sold the focal elex immediately. At moderate volume the bass literally made a cracking sound. Total POS.
Thank you for the interesting video! A lot of useful information. Keep up the good work!
Great information presented very well. Thank you!
Great stuff, thank you!
Hi Amir thanks for this work I feel so much more informed, about the Focal, I am surprised you said that you only hear a few people talk about issues like crackling, within the community one of the biggest issues with focal is their unit variance, with a number of people stating various different issues including distortion. This is why I am trying to find an older Focal clear as they tend to not have this issue. I know it is anecdotal but its a pretty common issue I see with Focal.
Damn I didn't think I'd learn anything new today and you just blew my mind with the decibel measurements
I like you man…very straightforward and honest
Thank you very much, great presentation. Keep up the good work.
I hate it when I'm in a commercial theater and they forget to turn up the sound. Half the experience gone
Really interesting. As always. Thanks!
Learning this information helps me see a little bit how the forerunners of this industry landed on a curve that was closest to "most pleasing". Talking about RIAA.
Taking into account the act of making sound, recording sound and reproducing sound combined with how we hear, what we hear and at what pressures we enjoy.
It actually starts to make a little sense to me now that each frequency can basically be plotted on a graph as optimal, balanced and enjoyable.
Thank you so much for taking us laymen along into the proverbial depths of professional study and understanding.
It must get under your skin immensely at times when you hear the trolls grunting from under the bridge.
I'm so glad that you are strengthened by absorbing their tears and having their vitriol spat back upon them after it has gone through a significant chemical change, namely FACTS from PHOOEY! 😝 Like alchemy of the mind you turn nonsense into putty, then using experience, examples and expertise you mold that putty into a pointy object, then put somebody's eye out with it. 😄
-✌🏼
This is a very important subject to those of us in the business of music production. It turns out that fairly innocuous change of listening level ‘re-mixes’ a song, particularly one with a vocal. I use a measuring device to calibrate my monitor output, then set my master volume knob’s push default to the gain needed to achieve that sound level with a zero reading on my Dorrough level meter which is in a commanding part of my view.
Point being, we are not capable of removing the emotional effect of volume, particularly in a long mix session. That handy little button push returns me instantly to the real world and I have to admit sometimes it is shocking how far away from it I have gone.
A general rule is that instruments closer to the timbre of a human voice are the most affected by this curious phenomenon, as you would expect given a moment of thought. I discovered this decades ago when fade-outs were way more common, as the last instrument to ‘disappear’ is the vocal. You can try this yourself by finding a piece of music that is fully represented. First to go are drums and bass, last are vocals, guitars, piano.
Hi Amir. I agree fully with your report. As a retired P. Eng I have spent the last 8 months doing research on how to improve ear protection attenuation. So far it has been a very difficult goal. One point should be made. There are similar Louis Fielder graphs that show hearing sensitivity at various increased SPL values and the difference between base and midrange becomes sensitivity becomes less and less. Ie the loudness vs frequency becomes flatter. It is my understanding that recent research is trending towards thinking ear damage from high SPL low frequency is indeed possible similar to the existing published dBa curves but that the A weighting curve should be adjusted flatter with increased SPL. This is not for music but still a concern for industrial exposure. Often ear damage occurs years to decades after the exposure, for reasons not fully understood. ASR is a great channel. Tx.
Absolutely agree with you here. Recent research has altered the thinking about high SPL low-frequency effects on hearing loss so they are proposing the dBZ weighting curve which is nearly flat. But this is for a constant SPL level in the workplace as you mentioned and is a habitual mistake for audiophiles and even some audio professionals.
Another amazing video
Excellent, thank you.
I started seriously listening to music at home and working on live music productions in the '70s, when amplifier power for the professional industry and home listeners was costly and hard to find. One thing that I noticed in both was that the listener or sound mixer would turn up the gain beyond what the amplifiers could handle, causing distortion and eventually hard clipping. Some noticed clipping better than others, and some were oblivious to it. In a normal home system with no bi-amping, clipping generally produces a greater proportion of HF energy to the speaker, that gets divided by the crossover and sent to the HF driver(s). Because our ears are more sensitive to these frequencies, it can be perceived as greater loudness, but can also cause listening fatigue and hearing loss. My solution at the time was to always provide more amplifier power than was needed to avoid unwanted clipping. When that was possible, I also eschewed dynamic processing ("upward compression") so the music has a more natural sound. When there's not sufficient power, using compression to reduce the crest factor, the ratio between average levels and peaks was a way to increase perceived loudness, at the cost of having dynamics. OTOH it takes 10 times the amplifier power to make "twice as loud" so often it was a matter of budget and economics.
My ideal system always was capable of maintaining nominal distortion figures beyond the threshold of pain, and would require expert gain control to not deafen the audience. Large PA systems with line array speakers and more than enough amplifier power can do this in a stadium environment, and almost rival a good home stereo for sound quality. One place where a home stereo often falls short compared to a stadium concert is the feeling of size and gobs of bass. Obviously there's no replacement for going to a rock concert, but often I'm finding that the bass in recordings has been limited, perhaps because so many people have small bookshelf speakers that simply can't handle actual extended bass. I too spent a good portion of my life settling for that 100 Hz hump that gave insinuations of deep bass without actually delivering it. There's no replacement for a full range speaker that can make good extended bass, and it's a shame that the trend is to only cater to casual listeners with small speakers.
Thanks a lot! Very interesting!
I am not questioning what Amir is saying. I am also not an expert in measuring audio and what is the threshold for permanent hearing loss. However, I do have a friend who was not subjected to high noise at his job, but did get some permanent hearing loss listening to music. Not long before the hearing loss began, he was testing some amplifiers to see how loud they can go. The issue for him was that his left ear began to ring constantly. That in itself was a great source of anxiety. This guy also liked to go hiking up the mountains just to enjoy the perfect silence of nature. The fact that once one damages his/her hearing actually means having to listen to a certain frequency sound all the time, for the rest of one's life, it is worth thinking about when cranking up that volume. Tinnitus can be debilitating, especially right after you get it and until you are able to tolerate it.
Then I used to read reviews on AVForum where someone liked to evaluate amplifiers and speakers. He was able to afford amps over 30K, like the Pass Labs. The guy was happy probably about his experience, but after a while he wrote that one of his ears began to ring. He associated his hearing loss to the high level music he was listening to, while testing his new gear.
Also, I read some article about how the amount of people listening to loud music correlates to an increased number of people getting ear ringing. It was a few years ago, so I cannot make a reference to it. Everything in moderation, right?
Thank you again for reminding us!!! oh how quickly one forgets...
Intresting chat thanks m8
Very interesting video as this topic is somewhat outside your chosen path to 'review' music gear designed for enjoyment, solely on the basis of electrical measurements, whilst leaving out all psychoacoustic assessments such as imaging, depth, tonality,, timing & dynamics. Perceived loudness, pitch and intensity of sound is a subjective topic too. It is not yet well understood by science. Consequently, all current electrical measurement standards for loudness - be they environmental, medical or audio engineering related, are subjective, not universally applicable and open to interpretation. So you really shouldnt beat up that 85 dB guy. You both are right from their own perspectives.That said, I think you are doing phenomenal work on ASR and I enjoy browsing your website and watching your videos. Thank you for this one!
The “I don’t hear that problem” thing is often just people defending their purchase (IMO). Many people really hate to hear any critical thing about something they’ve purchased: hi-fi gear, photography gear, you name it.
Thank you for enlightening us about audio level measurements and listening safety. Before this video I had little idea about the specifics of decibel level to listening level comparisons. I was using rudimentary information from the internet, mostly based on the OSHA standards and using my phone as an SPL meter! Do you have any suggestions for an inexpensive SPL meter that could be used at home for accurate readings? This would probably come in more handy with speaker setup and listening levels than with headphones, but it would be nice to have around if it's not super expensive. Don't worry about angry trolls on the internet. They're par for the course.
Playing guitar with my amp especially high gain it’s typically in the 115 to 125db range where you can really hear the distortion that gives the instrument that special sound and feel that I love. In music this can be the same thing.
Thank you,Amir. I guess this is the reason why analog potentiometer have channel imbalance problem, but only few people complain about it and manufacturers don't need to solve it. In other words, when volume at channel imbalance section,the output sound pressure is still way down below reasonable listening level. Although this problem acutally bother me because I prefer to listen music at a very low sound pressure.
Amir, it might go a long way to put people at ease by having your hearing tested and publishing the results. I had mine tested and learned a lot about it, confirmed some things I noticed and adjust my listening levels accordingly.
I've found this incredibly valuable. Thank you Amir for taking the time. The opportunity to really increase my audio knowledge is a rare one. Please ignore the haters and trolls. Some of us are grateful for your sharing and effort. 🙏
Almost EVERY record is mixed at (around) 80dbC at ear level.. Only at these levels you can use a flat speaker system to reproduce the equal amount of loudness/base as the artist intended. Audiophiles spend thousands of $ on equipment but ignore this simple fact...
excellent point
This varies wildly. A lot of mixing engineers, like myself, use different volumes for different tasks. For example, when doing balances, I tend to use very low levels. But when I work on the bass area then there is no way you could have anything done at 80dbC since you practically cannot hear the bass region at all. C-weighted 80dB would have 20Hz about 10dB over your hearing threshold, so practically you cannot hear anything what's going on. A lot of mastering engineers use some predefined level around 85dBA. But that's A-weighted. This would probably end up being 95-100dBC at certain genres.
Totally agree with this analysis, have listened to high peak values in music for years, that didn't destroy my hearing at all. I had hearing up to 18.5Khz into my late 30s after two decades of listening to loud music. What DID finally destroy my hearing and contribute to tinnitus was working in data centers where the white noise is at very high levels for long periods. Sure you're *supposed* to wear ear protectors but how do you communicate with your coworker or talk on the phone? I turn 48 tomorrow and my hearing is down to about 13.5Khz and I've had tinnitus for a while now.
Tweeters in high power speakers are rated at a small fraction of the main woofer and white noise can easily destroy your tweeters at even only moderate levels. There is an Australian hifi guy who builds all his own kit has always recommended bi or tri amping on the basis that you can run your tweeters/mids on small pure class A amps since they require so much less power than the woofers.
In the Netherlands there is a 103 db(a) maximum level at concerts etc. Depending on the venu even numbers as 95 db(a) / 108 db(c) (max delta of 13) is mentioned. These numbers are government regulated and when the music is too loud it is possible for the controlling body to shut down the venu. There are simular regulations in other European countries. But exactly as you mentioned they use the db(a) (filter for human ear) and db(c) (filter at high sound levels for low frequencies) units. Thanks for explaining this.
For me it also depends to which soundsource i'm listening to. Speakers are the loudest, then headphones and after that iem. Then there is music. Classical music has a bigger dynamic range in the recording, so there will be high peaks. With more produced music, the loudness does not really change, so it gets uncomfortable at higher listening volumes. Some people seem to take you presentation as justification for listening at very loud levels, i don't think this is your intention. From my experience i'm a low volume listener, when i let others hear a headphones of mine, they always crank up the volume 3-4 notches, almost max out phones for example and this on sensitive iem. So there is obviously variance from person to person, what is considered comfortable listening levels. In that sense i would also argue, that if i would listen to the same volume levels as they do from now on, i would damage my hearing. It is not uncommun for me to get a tinnitus sensation from loud concerts or clubs and i need to go outside to calm this sensation down again, it is physically uncomfortable for me to be exposed to very loud sound levels, if they are constant. Hugh peaks are not so much of a problem.
I hope one day you’ll do the FINAL AUDIO D-8000 headphones with this kind of critical and in depth testing. Thank you, Amir!! :)
Hello Amir, thank you, one comment please, calculate the voltage only is not accurate, need to calx the current with fast current prob 50Mhz min, I did it and current I mesure was in the range of 1A-2A peak... at normal listening volume. Thanks again, you are the first pro on that subject that I see.
You may know this, Amir, but 94db SPL is not a random choice. It is the sound level that equals 1 Pascal (also 10 microbars of pressure) which our industry has chosen as the reference point for measurement of all sound transducers as a translation of sound pressure to ac voltage. For example, when a microphone’s output is rated as “-50dB”, it means its output is 50dB below 1v RMS when exposed to a 1 kHz signal of 1 Pa at it’s diaphragm. A “0dB” rating would produce that 1v signal with 94dB SPL at its diaphragm, a sound level exceeded constantly by a close vocal. Microphone sensitivity is baked in to the design and one can see why there is a practical best case. 1v RMS would make a mess of many mic pres.
In real life, 94, as we simply call it, is a bit on the loud side, but by no means a level to worry about. It is too high to use for very long sessions for most engineers I know.
I have come to 84 as a level that can be used indefinitely, and my controller shows ‘0’ at that volume. As this is just a knob I can turn it to +10 or any other level temporarily. I can’t tell you how useful this is. Certainly others are different, but the fact OSHA gets involved in this discussion should tell us there is legitimate consensus among us humans.
Thank you Amir, I learned a lot from your videos. I have a question as a "dumb audiophile". While it might be good to apply a bass boost using a headphone (that only the ear canal is the resonance chamber in the case of closed headphones), if I'm listening using speakers where the room usually enhances bass due to room mode, how should I apply a suitable EQ? And do u think, or have tested, that Dirac Live calibrated by a good mic (say miniDSP umik) can reli do the trick?
If a room is enhancing bass, it has standing wave modes that also reduce bass at other positions and frequencies. These effects are especially difficult to flatten electronically - doesn't matter if it's a digital or analog filter.
The only good solution acoustically is bass traps. These don't have to be cash-expensive - Ikea bookshelves filled with fiberglass wool and covered with speaker fabric are a hallmark of serious home studios - but they do need a lot of area and depth to have a meaningful effect. So the cost to aesthetics can be high.
Love your reviews Amir. Wish you were my dad.
I have'nt been to a live concert for years but I remember the temporary deafness afterwards. Listening to loud music can definitely damage your hearing and there are a lot of professional musicians with damaged hearing. A viola player called Chris Goldscheider won a case against the Royal Opera House in the UK because his hearing was damaged when practicing.
Nothing in this video is about listening so loud that you go deaf. It is about not guessing at loudness based on myths and folklore. If the sound is painful to you, then it is way too loud.
wonderful
I learn so much from your videos Amirm, 1 quick question I recently started using your recommended EQ for the HD6xx. When I finished setting up the eq I had to lower the peak gain by 8.5 dB and now everything is too quiet at the same volume I used to put my amp at. Should I just turn up the amp more?
Yes, you can turn your amp up more.
feel free to raise the volume in the analog domain.
What does it mean you had to lower the peak gain by 8.5 dB?
What are the recommended EQ settings for HD 6xx?
@@kyron42 I thought he meant the pre amp
@@kyron42 in the digital realm, no sample (or frequency) can go above 0 dBFS.
So if you boost bass by 8.5 dB digitally, you have to lower everything (gain) by 8.5 dB digitally. Otherwise the sound wave is clipped.
It needs to be specified how far away from the instrument it is because power drops at the square of the distance. Thus ten meters from the instrument, the SPL drops by 20dB.
I would assume they measured from an audience listening position. If not, this would be a big shortcoming.
Good topic.
Of course you need to measure at very high dB to see the response in technical aspect.
Although when listening, “how loud is loud” is something very personal. My threshold of perceived loudness is most likely lower than yours. For instance 90dB is not comfortable for me and not protecting my ears when doing a sinus sweep for calibration would hurt my ears significally-but that might be more because of my tinnitus making me sensitive.
(Also, if we should be picky if, you read that reference he writes it's comfortable for 1-2 songs and not an average comfortable listening level.)
when I took my audio engineer training, the recommended levels for mixing music in the studio to achieve a balanced mix and without over fatiguing or damaging your ears was to mix at levels between 75-85 db - but keep in mind this is for creating a proper mix and involves several hours of continuous critical listening and fine tuning and listening and fine tuning etc.
that said - when Im listening to music at home for enjoyment I like it louder. More like 85-95 and sometimes I will crank it even higher. At concerts, I prefer 105-110, Im not really a fan of anything past 110 . lots of rock/heavy concerts ate more like 120+and thats too much for me without some ear plugs designed to attenuate all frequencies equally...
also, there was weighting filter applied to that recommended mixing level I cant remember of it was A weighted or C weighted (was a long time ago when I took the schooling), and it doesnt mean we didnt listen louder at times to see how the mix held up at higher SPL's.
thanks
AMIR -- I'm afraid you forgot to mention the most important hearing-preservation tip: wear ear protection (or ear plugs) when doing LOUD house work or yard work ... mowing, chain sawing, etc.
Could u do a audiogram heating test and show the results?
Amir, great presentation. I learned a great deal. I'm going to watch it again to let it soak in.
I didn't see anywhere in yours or the articles put up on the screen the distance the mikes were set up from what they were measuring, to make the measurements. Also when creating Fletcher Munson curves, how old and what sex are the participants making up the average group of people to create the curve? Also, you mentioned listening to 20hz. As I understand it, people don't really hear as much as feel sound below 41hz. Listening to a great pipe organ's lowest frequencies, some with frequencies that go as low as 8 cycles through headphones will not be the same as a full range speaker system with a stack of reference Rel subwoofers or the Linn Isobariks I used to own a pair with usable sensitivity down to 10hz that my neighbor below me said would give her stomach aches when I played a recording of blue whales (no joke, she first thought it was some kind of seismic activity). Never tried a headphone set that could make my pants cuffs flutter. Hearing or listening is an odd thing in that there is very little reliable empirical data that explains what typically is considered subjective for now until, or if ever someone comes up with a way of measuring it. Also, the act of listening is not only your ears but your ability to concentrate without distraction from external distractions, or other thoughts going on in your head; a quiet mind so to speak. Isn't that what the pharmaceutical companies attempt to do, creating psychotropic drugs antidepressants, antipsychotics, Mood Stabilizers, etc. to quiet the minds of people?
I have to bring up this story about a listening test I was performing years ago, an impromptu test. remember when the green pen concept made the rounds; painting the edge and sometimes the inner indented part of a compact disc. So for the most part when attempting this test on various individuals, having them listen to the same discs treated and untreated, it became obvious that most had a hard time with it, differentiating the difference. The ones though that were better at it seem to pick quickly as opposed to having to repeat more often the discs. Well a friend of mine, a tenor, and I decided to do this test at his place and on his audio system which is very good but not outrageous, but better than most (?). We first opened a very good bottle of single malt scotch and proceeded with the listening. After four or five control group (knowing which was which) sessions, we proceeded with the listening test. As I changed disc after disc, twenty-five times, the tenor got it right one-hundred percent! As we continued, drinking listening, he picked up speed; the drunker we got the faster he chose, and correctly guessed the treated and untreated discs. I mean two or three seconds in to listening. Even when I did my best to trip him up (using the same disc twice) he still said something like they sound the same and picked the correct disc. I got so shitfaced that when I thought I got him in a gotch you moment, it was me being so hammered that I started to make mistakes. Now I had measurably good hearing, wide frequency range, and wide dynamic range and I could never do what he could. Now, what measurements do you have up your sleeve that could objectively explain that?. You don't! I've more stories, like the time I was at a dealer where we were there to audition a new amplifier, and when the dealer owner switched amps, everyone in the room turned and looked at each other knowing the new amp was better just from the sound of the first seconds of the lead in grooves of the Lp. Before the music started, things like spatial cues, the thermal sound of air in the room apparently over the recording mics were shockingly better on the new amp. Do you think that you can explain that? Anyhoo, maybe stop acting like you're the smartest person in the room. You're no Richard C Heyser. But just another person on youtube and can you and some others on youtube stop with the barking and refutation of others on youtube that just might know something you don't. I mean I have heard that you might be a shill for some Asian audio companies but do I bring that up? I don't know and really do not care.
go
You mean in research papers? If so, the mic was at the seat he normally buys to listen to live music.
I have a story r that I'm certain you will find interesting. Some years ago I subscribed to concerts by the local symphony orchestra and one of the concerts featured "The Pines of Rome" by the Italian composer Otterino Respighi. It was played in the second half and during the interval I noticed members of the New Zealand Air Force Band assembling on both sides of the seating at the back of the stage where the orchestra sat. The band comprised trumpets, trombones, euphoniums and tubas. Those who are familiar with the work will know that the end of "The Pines of the Appian Way" can get really loud and at the only time in my concert-going existence, my ears actually shut down and I could hear absolutely nothing at those final climactic moments near the end of the work. As I was leaving the concert hall afterwards, I saw a friend of mine and asked him if he had experienced the same thing and he replied that he hadn't. I have encountered the same work at later concerts and not had the same experience, although I have to admit I covered my ears the first time for a short period.
Wow, that is amazing. There is a "threshold shift" (TTL) in our hearing mechanism where the outer hair cells are stiffened to lower sensitivity. I had not heard of them causing total shut down though.
@@AudioScienceReview It's something I know I'll never forget - and I hope I never experience it again.
Speaking of dynamic range, movies can and should have a lot more dynamic range than music. Well, maybe not should, because I LOVE dynamic peaks in music AND movies. But watching a movie, you want dialogue to be at the level of a person standing in front of you talking, and you want events like lightning strikes, fireworks, and gunshots to be at their respective levels, which could be 120 or 130 db or more. When these events only last 1 second or less, you're not going to damage your hearing. So thanks for shedding some light on the topic.
This was a great explanation, but I'm still confused about the definitions for peak and average. For average, do we mean the long term value, averaged as power samples and then converted to dBA? Or do we mean an average of samples already expressed as dBA? Even more important, what do we mean by peak? Is this the instantaneous power corresponding to the peak of the waveform out of the microphone? Or should we average power over one second windows and pick the second with the highest average?
Does hearing damage correlate with peak or average levels?
Thanks @Douglas Blake. The first part of my question asks if we should take the average of sound intensity over a period and then express this average as SPL in dB, or if we should average the SPL. In other words, do we want the log of the average or the average of the log?
The second part asks how to express an instantaneous peak in sound pressure as a SPL in dB. Suppose we have a sine wave acoustic signal; is the peak SPL 3 dB higher than the average?
@Douglas Blake I would have thought we'd follow the lead of ITU-R BS.1770-3 and calculate 10log10(average power) rather than average the dBs.
Regardless if 94dB is too loud or not, I think testing how speakers handle lower volume levels would be a good thing to test (the frequency response).
Why does a Sonos speaker seemingly reproduce sound better than more expensive hifi-speakers at lower audio levels? We should encourage good freq response, at lower levels too!
Musicians of live music/concerts are suffering from hearing loss. Many (if not most) wear hearing protection. I think that may suggest that the current live music levels are too loud, in general
I'm in my sixties, been listening to what others consider "make you deaf" volumes all my adult life n my hearing is still better than most. I sit and watch tv and my wife keeps telling me to turn it up, how can you hear it? I come in a room and turn on a tv and wow can't believe how loud they have to have it to hear it.Yet when I listen to my music she say's "your gonna go deaf". Go figure!
Curious to know the highest frequency you hear during a hearing test. Thanks
There should be an industry standard device for applying an equal loudness contour to speakers... Many speakers even for thousands of dollars don't seem to sound as good as basic Sonos speakers at low volume levels. Did Sonos take all the engineers and there are none left for any other companies that make speakers played quietly?
Thanks for another video!
As for not using PP, you could always use Beamer hahaha
another nail to the coffin ;-)
People also need to be aware that Amir's measurements are effectively on the Z-weighting scale, and _not_ the A-weighting scale as he states. Listening at 85 dB(A) correlates to about 105-110 dB(C) due to the bass on my SPL meter. His measurements at higher levels are reasonably realistic.
European limit is 85dBa for 8 hour exposure, and from there onwards, every 3dB increase reduces time by 50%. So 88dBa is 4 hours, 91dBa is 2 hours and so forth.
There is also pretty crucial piece of information missing here. The safety limits are so called Leq numbers, which mean that it's the allowed exposure over mentioned time and doesn't take any consideration to peak values. So 85dB is LAeq for 8 hour time. It may consist 90dB for a period of time, 110 for a short period and then 60 for rest of the time. Average 8 hour noise exposure thus then comes down to 85dB or less and is considered to be safe.
Also, they are based on repeated exposure, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week, months after months. Occasional listening sessions don't qualify to these criterias.
What i still don't get is the duration, is it continuous? Like if i were to listen at 94db for 4 hours, take a break for 1 hour, and continue listening for another 4, would that be okay?
My guess for next year fixed Focal headphone name "Focal Excursion" lol, any guesses?
"Focal Alamir" haha, I'm getting good at this.....
I'm very confused by the Fielder paper claims and dare say it is irrational at face value. The paper extract fails establish a dynamic range of the 75 peice orchestra at what distance? Row number doesn't mean very much in an analytical paper because it does not specify distance. It also does not specify time. 104db peak for how long? How many times? I've been to hundreds of classical music concerts at many different venues and no way I've heard 104+ db SPL sitting in the back of the 500+ foot auditorium given the inverse square law of sound-admittedly the law is modified due to auditorium reflections. But even with those modifications, if I'm getting 104 db SPL at the back of a 500 foot auditorium that would mean much higher than 104 db SPL for people sitting at the front row (200+ db? 150+ db?). Failing to specify distance renders the paper irrelevant for application to people listening to audio. If the goal of audio is to replicate a live event, you need to replicate the live event at the SPL you are actually hearing; you can't do that unless you specify where you measured the 104 db SPL relative to the sound source. If measured at the conductor's podium then....well....104db is indeed a valid measurement point for the conductor's experience of the live event, but not the audience members who are experiencing it a much lower levels at the back of a 500 foot room. Failing to account for time at the peak SPL measured and how many times that peak occurred in a given timespan also makes it difficult to claim 104db or 114 db is a valid loudness to test in typical listening conditions. How do you set the peak levels to 104 db (for example) during measurement? You'd need to use the same piece played live given different pieces of music have different peak levels different number of times. Thoughts?
How can we confirm movie releases are indeed 'Reference Levels'? There are certain movies that appear exponentially louder. Is there anyone that is analyzing this content to ensure it conforms to the THX standards?
I KNOW THIS IS AN OLDER POST BUT WHAT WEIGHTED SCALE SHOULD AUDIOPHILES USE: A,B or C. Thanks
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Maybe a dumb question, but will ask anyway. Do we know if some frequencies are more damaging than others given equal amplitude or db value?
Anything above 500 Hz gets quite dangerous due to increasing sensitivity of our hearing. Once you go above 20 kHz, research is not there to quantify that as we clearly don't hear it but damage may be there.
YES! another loud listener
I came across a review that recommends that you pump 1 watt into the headphone because that's where it sounds best. The headphone has a sensitivity of 92 dB/mW which is 122 dB per watt. I wouldn't listen to a headphone for too long at 122 dB. It would be unpleasant and I'm sure it would be detrimental to my hearing after a while.
That's definitely bad advice. Your ears and brain are good at telling you when something is loud.
Thanks very much for this. I have long asked that speaker reviewers I follow, to listen and describe what they (subjectively) hear at, at least, three different SPL levels. Those might be 75dB average, 85 db average, and 95 dB average. Unfortunately, that leaves out reviewers who live in apartments, surrounded with objectors. My personal reason is this:
I live in a home that is open in design, so that driving the living room also means driving the dining room, kitchen, foyer, and an open space loft. The dimensions are roughly 34' x 36' x 17' high. My careful listening position is about 16' from each speaker. My favored music is symphonic, live jazz, and entirely acoustic material. The peaks should not be sheared by some Pro Tools plug-in. The live levels are not compressed to the extent possible.
I regularly (pre-COVID) attend such live concerts and jazz clubs. I have little interest in replicating the live sound SPLs, which may (as you reference) exceed 110 dB SPL. But I do regularly listen at 85 dB (measured average), with peaks above 100 dB. I don't want those peaks clipped or squandered by engineers meeting marketing numbers.
A concert piano is an example: recorded at the top edge of the open lid, a piano is capable of enormous peak SPLs. These are the 'attacks' of the hammer striking the strings. Folks who don't play a piano have learned to expect these dynamic spikes to be sheared off by poor speakers, poor amplifiers (or wall-of-sound engineers). To me, reproducing these sounds -- live percussion, pizzicato strings, blatant horns, and faithful woodwinds is THE STUFF of HiFi playback.
As usual, speakers are the big offenders. A speaker that can faithfully follow a plucked string at 75 dB @ 3' may be entirely incapable of doing such at 90 dB @ 16'. Yet subjective reviewers offer no evidence of such strength or weakness. They admit to listening in a (maybe) 12' x 15' x 8' room and they "don't like their music loud." What can I, for example, make of their observations? Nothing useful to me.
Thanks to you for making the efforts you make. As a degreed and registered engineer, I find no reason to doubt your observations and discussions, Amir. They entirely fit within the mathematics and physics I rely upon.
How do I know what decibel my headphones are running
Not easy. You need a calibrated setup and measurement rig.
I can't listen above 85dB with headphones without feeling fatigue or just being very uncomfortable . I just don't enjoy listening in very high volumes
Same for me, it gets very uncomfortable. There is a variance between people, i don't think amir got this point right. "Comfortably loud" is just subjective and can mean different sound levels. In the end amir and the one guy on diyaudioheaven are a sample size of two. You would need a study to compare subjective loudness to measured levels, i don't know if there is any.
Im at 85 at work mixing audio for TV daily.
85dB SPL peak at listening position is the perfect loudness level for studio monitoring work.
So there is an assumption in the video that high SPL, if unheard, does not cause hearing damage e.g. high SPL base levels. Is there evidence for this?
did you really not understand what he's saying? 127db peak, can be 107db average which can be around 90dba filtered average when tested by your instrument. he is dealing with peaks. and only 114db max at that.
@@BwanaJesuasifiwe I fully understood, sorry you didn't understand me, perhaps my fault. I deliberately didn't mention peaks or averages. Anyway, I found my answer, two sites among many:
www.hear-it.org/unhearable-sounds-can-harm-your-ears
royalsociety.org/news/2014/sounds-we-dont-hear-could-still-affect-our-ears/
As an aside, its a problem when losing one's hearing, in that you constantly increases the volume.
i like PP 🥳👍
normal conversation ~60dB, lawn mower ~90dB, loud rock concert
I have never heard of a classical musician who would not suffer from hearing loss and tinnitus. It comes with the profession. But a home listener need not be a professional musician and hence need not incur hearing loss. So, lower dBs are fine.
For the algorithm.