Venat's mentality is basically Nietzsche 101 (honestly a lot of his ideas permeate Endwalker as a whole). In comfort and safety, you find indolence and stop growing. The reality is the Ancient's issue wasn't their power, is was their inability to cope with suffering and struggle. Their lives had been perfect and at relative peace for such a millennia that the Ancients didn't have to learn how to cope with any sort of conflict. So when it came to their doorstep, their solution wasn't to fight it, it was to avoid it. Zodiark's greatest sin wasn't the fact he was evil, it was the fact he was a superpowered bandaid for a much larger problem that needed to be dealt with at its core. But the Ancients didn't want to do that; they just wanted to stop their suffering as expediently as possible, to the point they were willing to literally sacrifice each other rather than overcome their despair, let alone figure out the source of Meteion's song and put an end to it wholesale. Not only that, but when they paid the price to stop the damage, they refused to accept THAT price and sought to LITERALLY UNDO the sacrifices they made. Venat realised the Ancients were so incapable of coping with suffering, that the only solution was to force them into a reality where they were MADE to suffer. For without being tempered to suffering, not only did they have no chance of overcoming the Final Days, but they would meet the fates of civilisations like the Ea and the Plenty, who became so consumed by their naval gazing in relative perfection they lost sight of meaning.
No, Venat's mentality is Hitler on steroids with superpowers. Kill the subhumans, replace them with what you see as uberhumans, be their god - and watch the majory of them die, because fuck them, too, lol. Moon Nazis... uh, Moon Bunnies are the real way to go. That shit reminds me of that game that made all Nazi leaders anime girls... though even anime Hitler is not as fucked up as Venat, I mean, not even Hitler wanted to DISTORT humans and just kill ALL of them.
I would hardly call it bad. The results might not be pleasant, but is clear black and white to me. Venat did the right thing. The ancients who refused to accept their loss deserved to be sundered, and the rest were on board of Venat's plans. So they either deserved it or wished for it. All is as it should be.
@@azatheeverchosen7615 Good thing she isn't one and that she knows better than the lunatics who keep burying their heads in the sand and pretend that nothing happened.
And sometimes you don't see all the choices because you are closed mindind and you choose a shit solution anyway... exaxmple: if you are raised by a father who tells you hitting your mother is a normal thing and forces you to do it, will it make it good? No! But would you be at fault? NO, cause you dont know better (btw this is form a real life event, where this actually happened) But here, she had other choices, yet she did not even consider them. She could have discussed with her people more, share what she knows. See for a better solution TOGETHER... i mean the whole point of this game is to tell you "you dont fight alone"... and then Venat is just going "yolo, biatch, imma do what i wanna"... nah mon. Not my cup of tea.
Venat and Emet are honestly some of the best written characters in this game Emet is driven by his deep love of his home and his friends. Even when he appears with hythlodaeus in ultima thul, he is unapologetic in his ideals. Venat is driven by her desire to see humanity perservere and is best exemplified by everything the scions endured Alphinaud's strongest trait is his ability to show compassion to those around him and fight alongside them, this is best symbolized by Estinien's brotherly bond with him. Urianger kept secrets from his closest friends because he believed that the end justified the means, but it was always conviction to save humanity Y'shtola's yearning for knowledge has never stopped her from doing what she thought was best, despite what she learned Alisaie's love and desire to protect everyone around her has given her great strength Estinien's bond with the warrior of light, alphinaud and respect for ysayle and aymeric, allowed him to let go of his vengeance, and learn to love his friends and his world For Thancred, it was Minfilia's sacrifice, which drives him to move forward. G'raha sacrificed everything for the first, as the crystal exarch. The Warrior of Light, her champion, always seeks more challenges, more adventure but never forgetting their compassion or their bonds, encouraging so many to rise up and fight Defeating Gaius, ending the dragonsong war, liberating ala mhigo, ending the flood of light and defeating emet-selch. To Venat, we are everything she wished for.
It’s never really easy to justify or dismiss what is essentially an impossible choice. It was in the long run the best choice she could make under the circumstances despite the amount of pain she knew the worlds and the lives on them would suffer. If anything, it’s not entirely a conclusion for her rather than her struggle. She can let go and find rest. She’s fulfilled her purpose. And if the time ever comes, she could come back, but as someone or something new. Her influence will ever remain even if we continue the journey of XIV without her. So it’s more a conclusion of her struggle and conflict than her end. The journey never ends. And I think that’s a wonderful sentiment. Edit: Yes I am aware she’s not coming back. Her soul is gone but what she left in her place won’t be so easily forgotten or fade away.
it is also confirmed in the Feb live letter that Venat is forever gone...long story short, she has been Hydaelyn for too long the aether that comprised Venat's soul is no more, so when we finally defeated her, she died for real, never to be reincarnated as Venat/a body who has the soul of Venat.
@@youiri65 Souls don't cease to exist that easily. Why do you think Meteion went to all the trouble of making a giant seal to hold souls in to prevent rebirth? Venat will never come back, but she will reincarnate eventually like everyone else does.
It must have been a terrible dilemma having to sit on the knowledge that she would inevitably become Hydaelyn, too. How much suffering for her and her people is enough before she pulls the trigger? Had she truly done enough before effectively picking the nuclear option? What if she did it too soon, could it mess things up? I've always wondered why Azem decided to sit out helping Venat out, too. I sincerely hope they eventually elaborate on that, since it seems like such a weird choice given the circumstances.
A friend and I debated one how hard this choice would be to make. She was burdened not only with the knowledge that her people would be destroyed, but her actions HAD to lead to the the current reiteration/timeline. It was a balancing act and on top of it, a choice that I myself do not think I have the capacity to make. To damn EVERYTHING you hold dear for the slightest possibility of saving just the smallest sliver or doom everything to oblivion. She knew she couldn't win, and no choice she made would have been the right one, all she could do was what she thought was right in that moment. She gave Etheris the greatest gift she could, she gave the gift of purpose. She sowed misery and destruction, pain and sadness just As Meteion was trying to do but it was the only way we'd ever be strong enough to face it and the Final Days. She wasn't trying to be a hero, she was just doing what she needed to give Humanity a chance even small.
She was in an impossible situation. She laments over this before dying too. She also made great sacrifices to try and save the star. The big difference between her and Emet is she believed in the future, while Emet clung to the past.
I want to bring a couple facts to light. I don't know if these have mentioned, but the warrior of light tells Venat about the sundering. The warrior tells Venat of the fall of Zodiark. The warrior even goes so far as to tell Venat about the 14 reflections. While Venat did not know if they would succeed, She knew all she had to endure would come to fruition when a reflection of Azem looking exactly like the Azem of old came to Hydalyn. Since the warrior could not give an exact timeline, Venat had to fill in the pieces. She had a hard line to carry, but she knew that her struggles would lead to the first meeting. I think that gave her the continued hope to endure to the point of endwalker.
@@Pinkda1sy if you play a hyur, Emmett comments that the similarities are "disturbing". So presuming that the trailer hyur is supposed to be us, storywise, it makes sense that Venat need only wait for the person she met that day.
Azem and our Warrior don’t look exactly the same, they just have similarly colored souls. The details that the Warrior shared with Venat in Elpis are accurate though.
Okay y’all got me on that quote with Emet. I’m sure there are similarities, kind of like the sundered people in the source compared to the first. I concede haha
I'm kind of baffled that people are so staunchly anti-Venat for mass genocide (or at least death of identity), but pro-Emet-Selch who wanted to commit a larger amount of mass genocide across multiple worlds.
Well to play devil's advocate: Emet had a clear goal in mind and knew it'd work even with all that he'd have to do to achieve it. Venat does not but has faith that it might work. Emet is ultimately trying to fix a problem and rejoin souls and worlds Venat split the worlds on a theory that ultimately lead to all the sufferings of history and set the stage for Emet to do what he did. She never warned the other ancients about what happened, not even the convocation to try and change the future. If we go by direct action then Emet does more or at least assist in more killing. If we include indirect action or inaction then Venat does more.
@Александр Костров she knows what she's creating but she doesn't know if it will work. We talk to her before our encounter with the endsinger so she does not know that we will win. We also don't know the details on the early rejoinings so "he got right to killing" is a bit of a presumption. But we do know that his plan would have worked. We only know Venat's plan worked afterwards.
She suffered as much as Emet. Was it a Just decision? It’s a complicated thing, but what matters, like Emet, what was her reasoning behind it. Like Emet, Venat did it for a good cause and loved the people and life and carried a very heavy burden on what she did. Emet same thing, but carried the burden on losing his loved ones and trying to get them back. I was really REALLY afraid that maybe she’ll be a villain due to her being a primal, but no. After hearing her side of the story, she was very caring. The tribesmen that was made by her, the Loporrits, share that same affection and want to help.
The complex stories always make it more interesting. I know a lot of people speculated Hydaelyn would heel turn during the early parts of the games story but I’m glad that’s not the case. Final Fantasy’s tendency to make good gods actually evil is so played out.
I think people sometimes forget that this was not a choice she partook in alone. She was transformed into Hydaelyn by ancients who shared her belief that the only way for humanity to grow, it would need to learn how to appreciate life in all its forms. As Venat says this was not done out of kindness, but out of love. Love for the world and the life on it, that it would not be annihilated by grief and apathy. Venat as hydaelyn controls stasis which governs laws of creation for peace. To unmake the world, or at least unmake the world she knew. And sew the seeds of peace and love in the hearts of humanity through a shared struggle. So that one day they could stand up to the embodiment of hate and show how much stronger love can be.
Sometimes there is no right or wrong choice. Venat knew about the sundering from the Warrior of Light, but I think she knew given the circumstances it was the only choice. Had the Ancients performed their third sacrifice and restored the souls taken to create Zodiark the Final Days would begin again. This time, they likely wouldn't have had the means to stop it, as the souls that made up Zodiark would have returned to the star. They would have doomed their world. Venat's choice would have prevented that ultimate tragedy, but it was one that caused eons of suffering and grief. It wasn't a good choice, it was a right choice, it was the only choice that had the possibility of saving their world.
I honestly postulate that Alexander was created by Venat herself. That in order to keep the timeloop stable there needed to be a way for the WoL to interact with her in the past. This also makes sense that Venats ability is quite possibly time related as she was the first to reconize you as being from the future. So Alexander was created and held in secret. That is until it was found out either by happenstance or purpose by the convocation that renamed itself the ascians. Even in the Alexander storyline there's a part where the au'ra couple meet up within Alexander. He tells her about all the calculations and at the end it's the orders of his mistress that the fate of thr star falls unto the WoL.
Venat was the first to recognize you were from the future because of the Blessing of Light you were carrying. A blessing that only Venat could cast, which as she never casted it on you to her memory up to that point meant that you had to have come from a future point in time where she had cast it on you.
@@TankHunter678 That's what I was overall getting at. Venat realize and understood the paramount crisis that was facing the star when you first transported back. Her traveler's ward (or bless of light) signaled that the only way that this person has this ward is due to time travel. As it seems (unless their mind is blanked / neuralized) the Ancients had a very strong memory, and ability to process data far faster than their decedents. Emet flat out argued that time travel was impossible, even though it was proven as you stood in front of him. So the fact that Alexander (being the 3rd oldest Primal on Eythris) was crafted by Venant to insure the stability of the time stream. It also brings into question and possibly that the realm between stars is purposefully distorted via a time/space magic. This would also help in syncing up with a Graha's time and dimensional trip. However still the biggest issue, where's the other timeline, the timeline that Graha left. What exactly happen to cause the chain of events to keep the paradox in motion.
@@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773 Well according to the lodestone side stories when G'raha went back in time and successfully changed the past it created a timeline branch. His original timeline kept going and everyone rallied under Midgarsormr when he finally woke back up. We however are operating on a predestined timeline loop because we returned back to our time and did not change the past in any major meaningful way.
@@TankHunter678 I honestly would have preferred a branched timeline that could have reversed Venat's actions in another timeline so that the Ancients could be happy. They *deserve* happiness. They did not deserve to be *erased*.
Venat echoes my deepest conviction, one ive held since i was a child in fact. People. They always find a way forward, no matter the dire circumstances, no matter the terror inflicted upon them. As a rule i loathe humanity and what its become, but that doesnt stop me believing we can all be better, even if we slip and fall along the way, our potential is truly limitless.
The interesting part is that Zenos' morality speech comes soon after the scene with Venat. It pretty much forces us to ask the question : Do we not resent the outcome (The sundering, the death of the Ancients) because we approve the motive?
Short version: Yes. Zenos is a sociopath, and he's just saying words to excuse something. If murders were in service to some greater purpose, however misguided, there would be some small comfort in that. Otherwise it is completely unnecessary carnage. Venat, similarly, could have had good reasons to commit the sundering (and if I understand the mechanics of Zodiark being a feedback loop with diminishing returns, then she would) but none of those were brought up when she went on her anti-misery tirade. So, yes, I would resent the outcome of Endwalker's revelations less if I approved of the motive.
@@lumijo2407 Zenos wasn't just "saying words to excuse something", he was making a point. If he had done everything he did to some other nation, Jullus wouldn't even have batted an eye, might've even justified it himself with some pro-Garlemald argument the same why Quintus keeps a "yours or mine" attitude. If he had done what he did but with some spiel about nationalism and noble sacrifice tacked on, Jullus would've seen it as a tragic but necessary evil. But since Zenos inflicted that suffering on Garlemald for his own agenda and no other reason, now it's suddenly an issue. That was the point he was making about those moral concepts being constructs of convenience.
Motive is what drives the human mind. Even a character like zenos was driven to fuel the flames of the Warrior of Lights anger towards him. Weighting the weight of our actions varies from person to person, since we each have the capacity to decide what is "good" and what is "evil" in our eyes. From our perspective playing as a sundered soul on the source, venats choice was entirely necessary and in her words done out of love for mankind, not hate.
The funny this is yes. That's how people work. That's even how our legal system works. We punish crimes less severely when we approve of the reason they were committed. We punish someone differently if their kill their husband for the insurance money verses if they kill their husband because he was abusive. It's the reason half the player base went from hating the Ascians to wanting to become one after Emet-Selch explained *why* he was committing genocide. Even after all of this has wrapped up, people keep looking at every character from a different shard wondering if they are a piece of Azem still wanting to finish the Ascian's goal if only for themselves. So yes, people do care why you do something, even when it's something awful. Especially when it's something awful.
I feel like if the rejoining did happen it’ll just be the ancient living in borrowed time, Meteion is still out there singing her song of oblivion and their would come a day that even with the full might of Zodiarc it will still end the star.
Hythlodaeus should have remembered everything cuz once he died and Kairos' magic should be nulled. But Idk whether Ancients will be able to defeat Meteion before their magick turned against them. Also they don't have a best friend, who can turn into a dragon.
@@dullahandan4067 According to our current understanding of physics and the universe yes. But did you notice that little word there? "Current". We have millions and billions of years ahead to find a solution.
Hydaelyn's story was well concluded in EW. And it entirely changed the context of the song Answers. About her sundering everything, it did enable their heirs, intentionally or not, to manipulate Dynamis (apparently our Limit Breaks are powered by Dynamis), making us the perfect species to fight against Meteion.
I'm pretty sure "make sundered creatures that aren't so Aether-dense who can better manipulate Dynamis" was extremely deliberate, as well as seeding/fostering cultures that would better be able to overcome suffering and despair (remember the whole mantra about existence being suffering and to face it head-on from Thavnair). Not to mention seeding the whole idea of the Warrior of Light as a recurring emblem/embodiment of Hope itself in the face of despair and seemingly impossible odds (don't forget the story of patches 5.1-5.3 and what the Warrior of Light represents). The post-Sundered world was specifically engineered to be able to overcome what the Ancients could not, and bring Hope-fuelled Dynamis to bear against the Song of Despair, just in case Zodiark's protection ever failed. Every Rejoining makes people more and more aether-dense like the Ancients and thus less and less able to manipulate Dynamis, which is part of why Hydaelin always called up Warriors of Light to try to avert the Calamities. The PC warrior of light succeeded in doing so at least once, who's to say their predecessors never did? We only know they failed to stop seven thus far, but who knows how many times the Ascians have tried over the millennia since the Sundering.
@@pseudonym6387 I can't give a quote or even the point in the story, but I also think some rejoinings have been avoided and that Azem's shard has lost before, because Emet-Selch tells us that there's always someone trying to ruin his plans.
I feel that the issue is that we KNOW that if Hermes goes into the Final Days NOT knowing that he's responsible for it, he is essential in helping to prevent the Final Days from outright wiping everyone out. If Venat went up and told the Convocation everything, that might doom the timeline in two ways 1: Hermes has an emotional breakdown and is unwilling or unable to do what he did in the Original Timeline, and the Final Days kill everyone 2: Hermes is willing and able, but the Convocation of fourteen doesn't trust him enough to let him handle things, and the Final Days kill everyone.
well not necessarily, another option would be that the convocation believed her and because they now knew what the real source of the problem is they don't waste all the time with the atherial currents and thus needed his help to fix it. and instead use their tech to build the spaceship similar to that we ended up building in our time. and taking off to find and hunt down the Meteion's before they where able to build up such power. there's a lot of things that could of changed had she spoken up. though one thing is for sure, if she didn't speak up we already know what would happen as the wol is from the timeline where she didn't. So her speaking up at all would be a wild card that would make it impossible to know what would actually happen next. and to the WOL and everyone in the future. which could also lead to a paradox, because if they do manage to solve the problem of the final days with out such a cataclysmic event happening, there likely would be no reason for the WOL or anyone else for that matter to go back and Tell Vernat of the problem making her now unaware of what the problem is before she could do anything to fix it.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The ancients would have destroyed themselves if she hadn’t intervened. Sundered is better than extinct. It also gave them the ability they needed to beat the ultimate despair. You can’t fight dynamis with aether. If choosing between certain death for all, and death for many with the possibility of it ending the final days for the rest, I know which one I would go for.
@@azatheeverchosen7615 Except that someone had to make the choice. If everyone stood around wringing their hands then the world would have ended then and there. There are hard decisions that have to be made, and sometimes life is about a ruthless calculus. How to save as many people as you can, even knowing that some won't be saved. None of these choices were good, but a choice had to be made, We can hem and haw about all the philosophical questions of free will and such, but in the end, Venat's choice was the only one that would allow humanity to even have a path forward. It might feel nice to say that she didn't have the right to make that decision for everyone, but it's simplistic and idealistic and when the world is ending and your species is on the brink of destruction and not able to stop looking backwards, that idealism will make sure that there are no survivors left to debate the morality of your actions.
Venat: "So tell me all about this "Dynamis" and how one might defend against it if it were to start spontaneously bombarding the planet from space". Hermes: "Huh? How did you know about Dynamis and why is the proposed application so curiously specific?" Venat: "Oh, no reason.........................."
Despite what Yoshi said about her being dead dead, I think it's not that she's dead but finally able to rest properly, knowing that mankind will be fine without her around. Now I wait for the day we possibly see Hythlodaeus and Hades reborn if they choose to be, if they do oh boy reincarnation Gacha will be fun lol.
The Convocation and Venat had a similar choice: the deaths of many to save the rest. This choice is a hard choice to make. I can't even imagine what that kind of decision must be like. But then I am reminded of Louisoix's statement, "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom-it is indolence." I tend to agree with Venat's statement. IF I were in that spot, I suspect I would be forced to act. Not because more lives would be saved than would be lost. It would be because I would not suffer the regret I would for not acting. I would have the salve of saving lives to help with the regret of losing the ones I did. That would be a marked difference and my soul would not suffer for it.
You’re right. An incredibly difficult position to be in, but someone had to act. I’m sure she desperately hoped something would change and she wouldn’t have to sunder the star like the Warrior said she would. But it had to happen.
My one criticism would be that you mentioned a similarity between Venat and Emet-Selch’s judgments of humanity, but you neglect to connect it with Hermes’ as well. He wished to test humanity’s fitness to survive. Venat’s sundering didn’t challenge that - she actually doubles down on his experiment, choosing to bring forth great suffering in the hope that mankind can overcome it. Is that really so different from Hermes’ test?
I feel like she gave humanity more of a fighting chance. The ancients never experienced true suffering and most of them were so overly confident in the use of aether they'd have never considered dynamis as something so worthy of being considered a threat. Also hermes wasnt in the room when we talked about the final days so i can only imagine he'd probably have lost faith in humanity and forsaken the test to simply have all life destroyed.
Hermes' wasn't a test. He was just doubling down on his beliefs and perhaps assuaging his guilt with the act. He had already fallen in despair and didn't really think that any lifeform would be able to overcome Meteion. On the other hand Emet-Selch was never able to fully convince himself that current mankind wasn't worthy of protecting the star and acted accordingly.
It's difficult and nearly impossible to answer. Such a question isn't so black and white. It's Grey with ALOT of room for justifications and dismissals,but one thing is true. If Venat hadn't sundered the star then we would not be here now to face metion and save all of reality as we know it from oblivion.
That’s what I love about the game. It’s gray. Lot of the choices people made and acted was in the gray area. Venat did that, but her reasoning is what made her a great person. She did it to save and held onto the hope
Venat made the only gamble that would have been worth a damn in the long run. Even if she had pulled aside Hermes, beaten the details of Dynamis out of him, joined forces with the Convocation, and forestalled the Final Days somehow, it would never ever change the fact that the Ancients as a majority were a people incapable of facing true suffering. The Ancients depended on the Convocation to solve their problems, while the majority lived beautiful perfect lives. Its pathetic. At least on sundered Etheirys, the majority of people learn to endure. To fight and keep fighting, to be self-sufficient. That is why Venat chose to believe in them. Was this not explored in post-SB as well? Godbert schooled Nanamo in this lesson - we cannot feed our habits of indolence. Charity cannot be made a habit, people must learn to survive on their own will.
There is one rather interesting thing that you didn't mention. Since Venat was Azem she chose or at least recommended the current Azem (that we never see in our visit to Elpis) which basically means she chose us (as the traveling hero to solve the worlds problems) already way before she chose us later on to save it (again) for good.
I loved it! Thanks for framing it so that Hydaelyn and. Venat were separate entities. It's so easy to get.confused by the way things were presented during Venat's walk montage in the middle of EW. This vid helped tie up the details we got from ShB to the details we received in EW.I understand it much better now. Nicely done!
You touched briefly on a point that has intrigued me. Azem refused the overtures of Venat's little cabal. The question is "why". There is certainly a relationship between Venat and Azem (and I sense it to be a positive one). She shows great interest in his (our) exploits. So to totally ignore the invitation is out of place. However, I can't help thinking the unsundered Azem had the ability to perceive the future. We can do so even in a sundered state (as was demonstrated when we saw the Star in total chaos while on the moon). The Watcher, also, experienced it giving it credence. So maybe the unsundered rendition of the echo was massively more effective allowing Azem the ability to see what part he/she would be required to play and how Venat would best be left in the dark for some reason. You get another taste of Azem's ability to see the future in the intro to Pandemonium. I don't think we've seen the last of this plotline.
This is also something I really want to know more about. And it’s not that he refused, but implied that he didn’t give her an answer when she asked and he never got around to getting back with her. I wouldn’t be surprised if he could see glimpses into the future. Your points make sense.
So the Echo seems to be not so much a 'gift' from Hydaelyn as an inherent Ascian ability. And it is clear from Elpis that the Sight/Echo can manifest differently in people. IMO, our Echo seems to see into the Truth of people - we tend to see what motivates people to take the actions they do, to become who they are in the present. If this is the case, then it is possible that Azem saw our conversation with Venat. Azem would have then seen that they are sundered - IE, cannot be part of either Zodiark OR Hydaelyn. So did not answer Venat to ensure that the WoL would inherit their soul.
@@Unholydragoon Excellent point. The storyteller when out of her way to make us aware that the "Echo" manifests differently, and even had us sit down with Hythodaeus so that he could explain some of those nuances. And, Venat said something about midway through Endwalker that I found interesting. She told us she had an ally that we would soon meet (Watcher)...and then said "and one other that may come into play." (paraphrase). That one other was, of course, Emet-Selch. So, she had the ability to separate dead souls. So, one could assume she, also, had the ability to separate out our soul when the sundering took place. Our role in the story doesn't really manifest until the 7th Calamity. Perhaps that was the tipping point where Dynamis became wieldable by the WOL and man finally had a chance. The "seven times I have failed" speech from Minfilia was, basically, a misdirection.
@@Unholydragoon The Echo isn't the same thing as the Blessing of Light, even though they are often confused for each other. The Echo is a leftover remnant of an Ancient Soul. Everyone who has the Echo was an Ancient like Venat, Hades, Hythlodaeus, and so on. Those who came from 'new' life don't bear the Echo. Hence why on the First only a few people had the Echo activated when Elidibus caused the starshower. So basically every person we met, who had the Echo, Ysayle, Arenvald...they were once Ancients like the player was.
I’m convinced that both choices were necessary for mankind’s survival. Zodiark was needed to halt the final days from dooming everyone on Etheirys, but the solution caused further problems. Hydaelyn was needed to imprison Zodiark, mostly to stop further and further sacrifices to him. Azem did seem to be searching for some other option, but they seem to have been unsuccessful before the sundering.
I think this is right. And I hope we someday find out more about what Azem knew, because it’s implied by the Pandaemonium raid that he could possibly see into the future. Is that why he never got back to Venat?
In Ancient Greek kairos signifies a proper or opportune time for action. I love that so much in regards to the ancients is derived from Ancient Greek. Btw. it seems to me they took good care of using the the correct ancient greek words correctly. (Except in Kairos which should've been Caerus (spoken Kairos too) because kairos refers to a qualitative period of time while Caerus is the god of luck and favorable moments, hence changing a moment of time or memory to give it another outcome would fall into hands of Caerus and the actual thing that happened would be referred to as kairos (rather than Chronos)) if I understand the ancient greek correctly.
In Ancients one can see the flaws of ourselves as humans. We always strive towards perfection, yet we know we can never achieve absolute perfection, The Ancients felt they were perfect in every aspect, but when a literal doom came to their doorstep, they faced something they could only have imagined in the past. And thus their perfect world came to an end. And rather than try to find the source of the doom itself, they tried to restore things to how they were. Who wouldn't long for a past that once made you happy, but the cold hard truth is we can never truly return to such times. It's meaningless to even try that. And this is what Venat understood. To truly live and be happy, one must learn to live with suffering and strive forward and not dwell on something that is already lost. In Hydaelyn's words: "To live is to suffer. And in suffering, find strength. And purpose. And hope."
All I know is that Venat did what she had to, sadly her choice gave birth to multiple worlds (some of them destroyed thanks to the Ascians) intensifying the suffering amongst dimensions, but fulfilled her plan for mortals to achieve a method to use emotions as a key tool for mankind's survival. Of course, she risked it, as not everyone would be able to surpress negative emotions, thus allowing them to take over and create cycles of unending hatred among the living. That was the only reason she didn't kill Zodiark, aside from not being able to, he was too strong. Ironically, sealed and imprisoned, Zodiark bought the remaining universes a length of time for the WOL to steel themselves against Meteion. Only thing that pissed me off is that as Hydealyn, she was ready to sacrifice the other worlds and only save the source, but she had no one she could count on, and time was not in her favor, even the Azem from back then didn'tdo a thing, at least for now we don't know yet, maybe Pandemonium may let us learn more from him/ her. If you join the military, don't complain, if you have to deploy, you have no choice.
I really want to know why Azem never gave her an answer. I’m confident we’ll find out eventually especially with the implications that Azem can see into the future.
@@StoutHelm I agree, but you know what, something buggers me, not sure but, I know Elpis won't be touched or changed, it's one of six areas in EW, but we know the FD will happen in their world eventually, or not, an Azem keeps contact with Thermis, eventually we'll have to tell the Pandemonium characters the truth. I hope they do something about that, or maybe they won't bother to touch the subject. Then again, the Pandemonium story still going, maybe Elpis was spared from it he FD and we had something to do with it.
@@StoutHelm Maybe Azem was able to see the future, or we'll meet them begore this expansion ends, that's why he/she always chilling no matter how bad the situation gets...
@@cesblazikenturmoil9455 I don’t know if we’ll meet him because the mystery is what let’s players develop a head canon for what their Warrior is supposed to be. If anything we may come close but I don’t see us actually running into him. But I’ve been wrong before!
The White Robe Ancients are specifically stated to be known as "absolutely impartial" and the only Ancients we meet that have earned that status are Venat and Elidibus. It's likely there are others, but it's implicitly a very rare accolade.
Also given to those retired from official duty, which is rare given most choose to return to the star after fulfilling their duty. Few choose to eschew the custom. Venat just so happens to be the rare one. Elidibus however was specifically an Emmisary so his job was to be impartial.
@@acgearsandarms1343 This is why people are linking Themis (the Pandaemonium quest NPC) to Elidibus, as Themis is both young--as he is maybe a bit taller than a male Hyur--and wears a white robe already.
Here's an example which I think sums it up: There's a single fireplace that keeps out the cold in the house. Hermes opened the door with Meteion for the cold to come in. The Convocation used half of their numbers as kindle for the flame. The Ancients then wanted to kill their children in order to keep the fire going. Venat said no and broke the fireplace. The Ancients were scattered to the wilderness, some wanting to rebuild the fireplace and their home. Meanwhile their kids grew up with the cold, eventually surviving and adapting to build their own homes.
Weird to think that essentially in FFXIV, Etheirys (as it originally was) is akin to "Heaven" or "Eden." A "Perfect" Utopia and Paradise where "Man" knew only bliss and happiness. Where "Man" was essentially immortal "Angels" or some form of lesser "Diety," creating and nurturing life and building the world for which they lived from the ground up. They only ever died when they decided their work was done/complete and willingly returned themselves back to the aetherial sea. They, the "Ancients," "Man," or the "Ascians/Amaourotines," had a unique ability to manipulate all forms of matter in the FFXIV universe at will utilizing the abundant cosmic energy or "Aether" or the universe. So proficient was this ability, that they could literally rewrite or alter the very laws of reality. To create forms to the formless. Anything they thought of, they could create. And so immense was their Aether, that they were essentially forces of nature and destruction incarnate unto themselves. However, this would eventually lead to hubris. I like the parallels to the countless other real-world stories that hint at our world, the Earth, being actually a "Sundered" place/realm/dimension. That there once was indeed true real magic, magical creatures and beings, and thousands of Gods/Goddesses/Deities that actually did exist. But in order to keep human-kind/man-kind moving forward and to save them from despair, madness, and eventual nihilism, that "realm" had to be forever locked away or kept out of easy reach. As Venat said in this cutscene: "I choose to believe in Mankinds potential. In his ability to find a way forward. So let there be no way back. From that temptation, I sunder us. No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk."
To me she is one of the best character in the game. I look at her in a two separate way: Venat and Hydaelyn: Hydaelyn is like a Queen from a history book that put her work in a first place, that is not afraid to do what is the difficult thing in the moment, to be relentless knowing that this is best for her people in a long run, sacrificing "the fine now" for " a better tomorrow ". On the other side you have Venat, a women that when she comes back at home after a hard day of work loves to read fairytales near the fireplace of Dragons, knight and princes going on adventures, a women that love to travel the world and be happy with her friends and families, tasting different foods and finding the joy in life. Venat is not sure that " the sacrifice " is best for her people, she is afraid of the future and doubtful of what is to come- Hydaelyn knows that this is their best chance and she is ready to do whatever it takes, even giving up her own live. We all have a little paces of Venat and Hydaelyn in ourself- the things we know we have to do and the fear of chousing, making the right decision, are we going to have the strength to walk it to the end like she did, making her character feel real even in a fantasy world. We will never know what is the future. Is what we're choosing now right or wrong but having the strength to keep going on even in the face of despair is the only way to find out, be true to urself and hope for the best, that way no matter what is to come you will be ok with it knowing you did the best you can. Looking at FFXIV is like looking at art, everyone find something different in it, something that connect to themself making it special, unique. I am always ready to listen to the history of the game the lore of the characters in it, trying to find out more about them to understand the picture better, because to me it is a good painting to look at a rich one with many colors and you can easily miss something just like in real life. Great video!!! Thank you for making it!! PS: sorry for my eng, hope it is not too bad :S
I just had a interesting thought, Would the suffering that happened under Venat of happened if it wasn't for Emet and the rest of the convocation causing literally every single major issues that the world has ever faced? Almost every problem that is faced is some short of rement of something they caused to try and do a rejoining.
@@rudolfambrozenvtuber I saw you commenting around, and I know you have a weird issue with venant and are way to engaged in this issue. So I don't plan on responding past this. You are taking this story and game way to personally. I've learned enough wiht arguing with people in the internet then to engage with bad faith people. good day.
@@littleowl3493 I fired off like 4-6 replies as I browsed the comments section. You can at least use a narrative that vaguely holds up if you want to concern troll dude
I an this might sound wrong - comming from wow and quitting it 4 years ago, having being super invested into that storyline and whatnot and seeing where that ended up is horrible . Now with the FF story and venat i would say yes, fitting end , good buildup and curious where we go from here with the new story that awaits us all.
I was almost certain Hydaelyn would not survive Endwalker, going in. I wasn't certain how, but I knew she wasn't going to make it. All I wanted was for her to get the closure that a mother deserved: the knowledge that her children will be okay without her. Just from that angle, Hydaelyn's conclusion was perfect, and I wouldn't change a thing.
Love this just one little bit the WOL nearly the whole reincarnation of Azem as they rejoined their soul with Ardbert Azem became nearly whole that's why Haydes sees Azem in their fight in shadowbringers hence why the WOL has a whole soul as they are reunited with what was sunders and brought back. Also the calamity rejoins part of the Source and its debatable that even pieces of Azem now 9 including the WOL and Ardbert belong in the WOL so the WOL is almost the whole Azem if not the whole as its stated that not everyone was sundered into 14 pieces hence why some souls are dencer than others as they have more parts within thememselves othe ancient ones. But I loved this vid. I love that how they wrote Vernat rather than an all good character she was faced with almost impossible choices and what she did was for the betterment of the world. She and Hydes are foils one seeks to rebuild a world that is past and gone and the other seeks to make a new world as all life is precious. Both noble causes but one looked forward to the future and the other looked to the past to try and make their desires come true.
Btw did you get a chance to see the translation of an interview with the writers about Hermes and Meteion? It’s funny how their predictions played out, that people would be conflicted with how they saw those two. They were inspired by Hear. Feel. Think., to really make you think about. Also comparing meteion’s weakness to the emotions of others to social media. How it was not until she was surrounded by the hope and love of others that she could think clearly with a balanced perspective
I would also like to point out that there is a time loop in effect here. And i think Venat knew that. We are the WoL exist because she sundered the world. We go back into the past and tell her about the fate coming. At this point She HAS to sunder the world, otherwise we wont exist. and wont travel back in time to warn her. and although its not "canon" per se. There are other things involved too. Like Pandaemonium. What ever is going on We get pulled into it. And we are more than likely gonna solve what ever is going on. No time loop, no us helping with what ever the issue is. Now i get since its not part of the msq, its technically not canon. But hey, its another reason to keep the loop. Do i think she still tried to change things, yes. But at the end of the day, she knew what needed to be done.
I don’t disagree. I do think a part of her was HOPING another way would appear, so all those people wouldn’t have to suffer and rebuild. Unfortunately this was the only way to deal with the problem.
Raids are part of cannon, even if not directly in the MSQ path. See the Crystal Tower and Omega raids for prime examples. Everything that happens in-game is cannon, MSQ or not -- you never know what might become relevant down the line. And there is a strongly implied implication that we did cause an alteration in the timeline -- Venat says as much when she repeatedly says a convergence is happening. The Hydaelyn we encounter in the aetherial sea is a combination of "our Hydaelyn who recruited us" and the "Hydaelyn created by the Venat we encountered in the past". So the Hydaelyn that recruited us probably did the sundering without any foreknowledge, while a Venat with that knowledge followed a parallel timeline that eventually merged in EW. The merger has most likely been getting closer and closer since ARR, which may explain why Hydaelyn talked to us less and less as time went on -- she felt the convergence happening and withdrew to let us walk our own path to get there, conserving her energy for the inevitable final test she expected was to come.
Something that no one in the comments has addressed is that the very nature of the Ancients led to a casual cruelty and callousness that was the ultimate cause of their undoing. The way they'd kill something, in order to use their creation magics to make something else, was pretty horrible. Hermes was right about that. The Ancients weren't very nice people. By sundering them, Venat/Hydalin essentially taught them all some humility. Up until then they'd been so powerful that they simply ceased to be able to relate to less powerful creatures. They were gods and every one else was expendable and they couched it in 'the betterment of the star'. Sure, they probably made the planet really pretty, but at what cost? Hermes' anguish over the arrogant cruelty of his people is what led to the creation of Metion and her sisters and thus the destruction she brought. Venat broke the power of the Ancients and stopped them from the terrible misuse of their power. Emet-Selch and the others are justifiably sheepish at the end and I do hope that they recognize finally just how destructive they'd been as a species. I felt bad for the sorrow that Emet-Selch was feeling at the loss of his world, but I was also relieved that the Sundering wasn't undone, because that would have simply started the cycle anew.
Do you not use mob parts in your crafting? We clobber creatures into a bloody mess and harvest whatever that could be salvaged to make food, gears and furniture. The ancients just do it in a much more efficient and humane way.
@@LalaOfLight that's... not at all comparable. Exterminating an entire species with a wave of your hand simply because their colouration is a little too much on the blue side for your liking is completely different from hunting a handful of animals and ensuring every part is put to use. There are cultures irl who use every part of the animal out of respect for the life that was taken to give those things; the ancients, on the other hand, had complete callousness and disrespect when it came to the lives they created, snuffing out entire species simply because they didn't suit their projected needs. They are not, in any way, the same circumstance.
@@keppakappa5033 But it is comparable. It's a about perspectives. To the ancients, life is not as precious than it is to the modern men because it can be easily created at will. To them, it's just another state of the aetherial resource that they were able to manipulate. If I synthesized the wrong item, I just desynth it and start over. To them, 'correcting' a creation is much like that, but on a much higher tier. They don't even hold their own lives above it, as they viewed their own lives as part of the cycle of nature. They are doing what they thought was the greater good to their understanding and not out of callous intent. Besides, wasn't our initial role to eliminate all creatures created via summoning just because we view them as a threat to our environment? Morality isn't absolute black and white, and values can be different between cultures. What I am saying is, try to understand the position of those different from you instead of just trying to condemn them or calling them savages. What we do here today might be viewed as monstrous by someone with a different understanding of the world, but we do what we can with the best intentions, because that is all that we can do.
@@keppakappa5033 *"snuffing out entire species simply because they didn't suit their projected needs."* -------------------------------------- Meanwhile, tons of FATEs boil down to "the population of X species is too big for peoples' liking. Start culling."
You have to wonder what will happen to the lifestream and star itself. What with a sudden introductory surge of aether from not just two elder primals but the dense ancient souls within.
@@StoutHelm Moreover... What of Venat's enchantment? What of the reflections that still have bits of Zodiark within them? Legit I'd be down to discuss this stuff any time. FFXIV is just one of those things that really captures the imagination and leaves you guessing.
@@shadowfiend9660 Yoshi answered that in the LL -- when Zodiark was destroyed on the Source, all the reflections of him were destroyed as well. Nobody asked, but we can from that assume the same is true for Hydaelyn.
Venat/Hydalyn is the first time in a game I have CRIED after beating a foe :P Endwalker broke me bad and after I had done the main story I just couldn't go on FFXIV like 2 weeks as I needed to get my self together. They did SUCH a great job the writing team :P
one thing that really annoys me about the comparison of Emet Selchs actions to Venats that I keep seeing in comments is the fact that people tend to boil it down to "bbbbut they BOTH caused suffering!!1 therefore BOTH did a genocide and are EVIL (except for emet bc he's sexy and that obviously excuses any and all actions)". here's the real difference between the two: Venat sundered her people (not KILLED, sundered into different parts) partly as a way to reduce their aetheric density, but also as a way to expose them to hardships and temper them to suffering that they would have otherwise had to deal with if they didn't have godlike powers. she essentially made them on the same level as all other life on their planet, no more or less powerful than anything already existing. any suffering that came about was a result of a people without the immense power they once had having to learn to deal with it in other ways, NOT from her direct actions. she never went out of her way to cause any suffering in any form, she simply took away the ancients ability to instantly wave it away. she did not view any life as being more important than any other. Emet Selch, on the other hand, established a fascist colonial empire with the express intent of directly sowing suffering and chaos across the land in order to meet his ends. He did not view anything that wasn't an unsundered ancient as being worthy of life, and that reflected in every action he made. He directly caused multiple, actual genocides across multiple worlds, and if his ass hadn't been handed to him so readily he would've happily continued until EVERYONE across 13 shards was dead, just so he could sacrifice another half of all life on his rejoined Source to bring back the glory days of... ignoring the existential threat that threatens the entire universe by slapping a big Aether bandaid on his problems and calling it a day. People way too readily want to worship and forgive a dude that established a fascist empire and committed mass genocide because they wanna fuck him and are WAY too quick condemn a woman who didn't kill anyone and valued all life equally because, well... she's a woman they don't wanna fuck. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Emet shouldn’t be forgiven and I think he knows he was wrong at the end, he’s just stubborn. But his crimes are certainly worse. And your point on the sundering is tough, because even though those souls would eventually be reborn, did that mean death? Or something different?
@@StoutHelm but were they even "reborn" at the moment of sundering in the first place, though? I don't think there was anywhere that says so definitively (if there is I'm happy to be corrected), but assuming nowhere said they died and were reborn at the moment of sundering, my assumption is that they were split into different beings as they were; still alive, just across different worlds. this could also explain things like the cave markings found at Raktika that showed a much more detailed vision of what happened at the moment of sundering than anything the visons the Echo showed us (which was essentially just a meteor shower/destruction of a world). the people who were immediately sundered could have retained partial memories of the events that led up to it, memories that would eventually be lost upon their eventual mortal deaths and rebirths as part of the natural cycle of life.
I believe that Hermes never figured out that Dynamis was the cause for the final days after his memory was wiped. He had always thought it was a weak energy with little influence. The ancients thought that the planet itself had a fatal flaw, where the 3rd web of atmospheric aether was thinning and causing catastrophies. Remember that dark aether is the element of movement and change so they summoned a dark primal powerful enough to make the 3rd layer pulse with aether and "rewrite the laws of nature" in their mind fixing their creation magic. But in reality it acted as a shield to the dynamis they couldn't perceive. They found a treatment but never knew the cause.
I always like to compare Venat to Pandora. The woman that would end up out of curiosity open up the box that would unleash hell onto humanity. Only to slam it shut before the last piece that would have saved humanity. Hope. Thus is why it is called "Pandora's Box". BUT in Venat's case, she knew doom was going to burst forth from that box. Instead of hiding from it, trying to seal it away, or even fight against it. She kicked open the box and let all hell loose and watched as the people of her kind panic and pray for salvation. Yet, their prayers were meant with silence. She, of course, did look in the remains of the box and found one little thing. A tiny little glowing orb that was huddled away inside. Taking it, and she saw something that the others lacked. Hope. She saw a better future. One that was not going to be easy, but one that would strengthen the resolve of "Man" (Using general term here). She walked the long path she set for herself. The struggles she fought. All the suffering she wrought. Yet, she never once lost sight of Hope. That all of this would bring a better future and bring an end to the cycle her people had created. And you know what? She did. She saw the cycle broken, and a new beginning had finally started. Her hopes and dreams had finally come to past. Time for her to rest.
Once your society falls into the spiral of killing its way out of all its problems it’s already over. Eventually you’d have nothing left except a lone survivor with no one else left to kill. Add to that their sacred power of creation being twisted into the power of destruction and it’s a double whammy. Her way gave life a chance. Theirs had become a cult of death.
the name of your channel reminds me of a friend i had in ffxi, he was named Stout Heart and if i remember correctly, he was a DRK Galka in Quetzalcoatl... could it be....?
@@StoutHelm that is ok, it would have been amazing to find my friend again, but at the very least i found a very amazing ffxiv lore channel, all of your videos are great so far, i specially love the one about the growth of Zenos as a character, you are an amazing creator
The way I saw it, Venat could not reveal anything because that would destroy the time-loop and cause an uncertain future that might as well be worse than the future she was told about where humanity stood a chance. And because she didn't reveal anything to those in charge, the council and most of the people didn't know what caused the Final Days. They could speculate, research, but never figured out that it was something from out in space. They assumed it was a flaw in the planet because, as all-powerful beings, they couldn't see anything beyond their own noses. They felt like they were the center of their own universe. They knew Dynamis existed and was involved, but not how to change it. So they made Zodiark, a regenerative deity-like entity. Since the raw aether-filled regeneration power inadvertedly stabilized the planet's Dynamis, they presumed they had FIXED an issue internal to the star itself. Which lead them to feel empowered to sacrifice more into this plan in order to 'reset' the now 'fixed' planet and its people back to the original state of things before the Final Days. Which only Venat knew would just restart the cycle because the root cause, Meteion, was still out there. They didn't even consider that there might be a root cause that needed fixing, so Venat chose to take away their power over creation to stop them from generating a self-defeating loop from a tunnel-visioned desire to stop their own suffering. Sundering the world was a delay tactic to stop the others from completing their Zodiark project, because none but her knew their hope was a false one. Nobody knew that Zodiark was a band-aid because they were too smug to even consider the fact that their plans could be anything but a complete fix to any problem.
You know what would have maybe helped? Telling them the cause of the FD so they just wouldn't be taken completely of guard and could prepare All the deaths are on her hands Fuck that genocidal bitch
I can’t remember the exact quote, but essentially she says she had to do it, to prevent who ever came after from doing the same thing and repeating the mistakes of her race.
Tbh I still dont know why, why did she have no other recourse but to oppose the 14 and create Haydelyn? Surely there were ways to let her people know, work towards a solution, she had knowledge nobody else did, knowledge without which we also would have been lost, I wish we got to see her actually trying out all she could before the sundering became the only option. Especially after Zodiark was created, her people had learned suffering and could have learned to live through it and grow through the experience if their suffering was given meaning, an answer, fighting an unknowable all powerful destruction is far different than the fight we had and even then, many of our people would also shut down and wish for their peaceful days to come back, its very human, each side had people to spearhead their survival, but instead of a united front we were afforded, their representatives were stumbling around in the dark due to not being priviledged with the information we got. Fantastic video tho, I always feel like im missing something and I love having peaces from other peoples views to fit into my understanding :)
That’s the only question I have to, was this reallt the only way? I remember someone asking Yoshida this through a live letter and he sort of dodged the question, but did compare Venat and Emet-Selch’s conviction and decision making.
I gave Hydaelyn a lot of crap before Endwalker. Often cursing her when losing rolls on rare items. After learning her story though my opinion changed completely.
To me it’s clear that Venat and Hermes were of the same mind. In fact it could be said that Hermes decision to put Etheirys to the test AND to stay behind and fight for it inspired Venat. Hermes saw that they were the 1%ers of the universe, and seeing how the ancients were the 1%ers of etheirys and how they judge what is worthy of living, permitted meteion to also perform that judgement. To allow meteion to share the pain and suffering of the 99%ers with the 1%ers of the universe. And Hermes then, instead of sparing himself to go with meteion, was the first to CHOOSE to stay and meet that challenge. Venat seeing how the ancients would use zodiark to spare the 1%ers from sharing in the collective suffering of the universe, in stark contrast to Hermes’ willingness to meet that challenge, to not turn a blind eye to the suffering of the cosmos, Venat was disgusted and ashamed of the ancients’ willingness to sacrifice everyone else to stay locked away in their walled garden free of suffering.
Didn't Venat sunder humanity, so that it had a fractured soul and couldn't use or crutch on creation magic to fix its problems? That is how i interpreted it.
Food for thought for the commenters: Venat never said anything akin to Hear, Feel, Think, like Hydaelyn often says, but there was someone else who said it in their own way.
@@StoutHelm in early ARR, there was this Mothercrystal, which we thought was hydaelin but it was the Giant Crystal inside Etheiris. But in several cutscenes ANOTHER crystal appears, which has a Dark appearance to it
I wanted to point out that the vast majority of ancients only knew of aether, Hermes openly stated that very few ancients even knew dynamis even existed. Only a few scholars and such. The ancients couldnt react correctly to the problem because they didnt understand the concept of dynamis. This was explained when Hermes was introducing the flower that utilized dynamis.
Was it revealed why she did not sunder the 3 unsundered Ascians? Was it her choice to leave those 3, who in turn decided to undo the sundering, or was it because those 3 could not be sundered in the first place? I haven't done the new raids so my apologies if it were already explained there.
It’s implied that Venat willingly allowed Emet-Selch to slip through the sundering and he saved Lahabrea and Elidibus in the process. She probably remembered that Emet was a big part of the Warriors success in the future and knew she needed him to fulfill his role.
@@Ladywizard he wasn’t, he abandoned zodiark to try and sort out the fighting. If he was part of zodiark at the time, he would’ve been sundered as well.
I apologize if this was answered already and I missed it, but when we say the WoL is a shard of Azem, and Azem is the title of the seat holder, does that make us a shard of Venat?
No. The most recent “Azem” was the one sundered, and the WoL is several of their shards rejoined. Venat is a different being, she just held the seat before the most recent Azem.
@StoutHelm Thank you for the quick response. I wasn't expecting much since this video is a few years old. I just found your channel, and it's been fantastic at filling in the gaps I missed during my first playthrough!
Not gonna lie, but Ancients were wild as fuck. I did two sidecquest in Elpis: The first one, I helped a girl return to the star (she comitted suicide) The second one, some dude had me danced with the devil's pet, wasted my fate momentum. They were to wild, I support Venta's choice.
The way I see it... Venat did what was best for everyone. Most of her fellow Ancients were so desperate to maintain the utopia they had that they would sacrifice their own people again and again so that Zodiark would keep it going. They were soft... they knew nothing of the kind of struggle that strengthens character. They feared the struggle, they dreaded the struggle. So they were willing to sacrifice everything to see their complacent and comfortable lives continued.
@@thorbenlehnert6138 What could she have possibly done? She was the only Ancient to leave Ktisis Hyperboreia with her memory intact. She is up against an entire government who decided that summoning Zodiark and sating his greed for souls was the only way to keep the utopia alive against the Endsong and the Final Days it brought about. Her path, right as it is, definitely is one of hardship the likes of which none of her fellow Ancients were prepared for. And in the end she was proven right. Us mere mortals with fragmented souls managed to defeat the literal end of the universe... something those unsundered Ancients could not do, because they never could grow strong enough to even try.
I'm talking before the final days began. She should have worked on a way to prevent the final days together with the conversation so that way the damage could at least be minimized The ancients would have already known about the analysis that Hermes did on the currents and they would know their enemy Did you forget they had the echo which would have confirmed Venats claims They could have created beings that could control dynamics or sundered a few of themselves to learn to control it We already know they were capable of building a spaceship so they could confront meteion(Venats also knew were she was) we know enough ether can block out dynamics so Zodiark or something somewhat close to his power should just be able to defeat Meteion(especially if this is before she has fully created her domain) We only win because of Emets and Hythlodaeus creation magic so no the sunderd really didn't accomplish anything on their own Venat was stupid, plain and simple And don't start with this " she couldn't change the future" shit We know from shadow ringers that by time traveling you create a new timeline so it isn't set
Ok I'm confused...I thought they created Zodiark and Hydenlin not summon them; where the Elitibus at the time became the heart of Zodiark (to which the Elitibus we deal with is another one promoted after the first sacrifice) and obviously Venat becomes Hydenlin (much like Louisaoux became the Phoenix to defeat Bahamet). The Venat cut scene also is a little confusing as to the second sacrifice was already made so why is the sky and everything still burning and how did she sunder at the end where the people she confronted were the ones doing the third sacrifice to Zodiark. So was her group doing a sacrifice off camera as she confronted them and once she gained the power she sundered the star becoming Hydenlin? It's seems different from what Emet told us in the cave in ShB.
Good question. Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both created and summoned. And as far as we know we’ve only ever encountered one version of Elidibus. He becomes the primal’s heart but later leaves the primal to try and mediate the problems between ancients. Also the Venat cutscene is metaphorical, not an exact retelling of events as they happened. We’re shown a sped up version of what happened. It is still true that Venat had followers that helped with Hydaelyn.
Small retcon to stop folks from seeing hydaelyn in a negative light. Hydaelyn has to be the absolute good otherwise the whole story falls apart. Can't have the golden girl have any depth
@@Beathemighty I get what you’re saying but she acknowledges the pain that her decision with the sundering caused. Yoshida said during a live letter that Venat’s decision was definitely one an ancient would make, and that her own hubris was similar to Emet’s conviction. She just happened to be skewed more on the side of good. That’s the beauty of their struggle, both sides have their pros and cons.
@@StoutHelm and while that is nice to say in reality Hydaelyn made an absolutely selfish choice and the story does everything in its power to gaslight players into accepting it wasnt. A throw away "I'm sorry" line after a roller coaster of a duty and an emotional boss fight with answers playing in the back round is not what makes a fair representation of one of the games top 5 murderers. But unlike the other 4 top murderers (Hermes/Amon/Fandaniel , Emet Selch, Meteion , Zenos) we as players are not allowed to feel any resentment towards her.
@@Beathemighty you are free to have your resentment, but it doesn't mean we all have to feel the same way. I agree with Venat's decision on many levels. Even if the Ancients had managed to defeat the Meteia their civilization would likely have ended up like every other in the Dead Ends. What would have happened when they finally felt they had nothing left to give the star? When all the meaning of their existence was lost? Would they have found the strength to find a new purpose or wallowed in despair? What if they hadn't defeated the Meteia? As aetherically dense as they were there is no guarantee they could have had any effect on the Endsinger. Remember they couldn't even locate Meteion when she went invisible. Should they continue to instead hide away beneath Zodiarks shroud while he slowly but assuredly consumed the worlds aether with each sacrifice needed to maintain his power? Get over yourself. She made a decision, a hard one, and stuck to it with the hope that it would ultimately allow life to continue. It was a horrible choice but so was every other possible choice in the instance. So hate her if you must, but don't expect every other player to hate her just because you do.
Hillariously 13, 15 and 16 all had top gods who were sociopathic assholes. Venat is an interesting variation in that she does do bad things, but unlike Bheinvulze, Bahamut and Ultima she REALLY is working for the greater good.
@@StoutHelm Technically there were four, if we count Venat herself. It's just the other three, being either tempered by or part of Zodiark, never acknowledge her. Hell, she (as Hydaelyn) even states this directly--she calls herself "the last of her kind". She knows Elidibus, Emet-Selch and Lahabrea are gone, so she's the only Ancient left.
@@NebulonRanger that’s actually something I can’t recall if it was ever spelled out for us. I have to assume hydaelyn wasn’t sundered given she was the one casting the spell. But I suppose the other option is also possible. Not that I think it matters much now.
I thought time travel in XIV was the same as time travel in Avengers Endgame. Where your actions in the past don’t effect the present you come from it just creates an alternate timeline that exists parallel to yours
They stated that everything that happened would preserve the natural flow of time. Nothing deviated from the events as they originally happened. Sort of like the line from Loki when the judge tells him that what the Avengers did was always meant to happen.
Even though Elidibus stated you traveling back would have no impact, clearly he was wrong or underestimated what influence someone could have in those circumstances. I interpreted it as the past can certainly be changed, but that the changing of the past is part of the loop. It was always going to happen in terms of a “sacred” timeline.
I hope this is adressed at some point but, how was the "time loop" possible in the first palce if in the original timeline the WoL died by the black Rose? For the timeloop to actually happen it requires another instance of time travel by G'raha for it to happen? Did the WoL told Venat about this as well? How did she pull it off? This means there is another timeline where Meteion is alive but the timeloop didn't happen?
The Blackrose Timeline *IS* the alternate timeline, lol. 😅 It's what happens if we would have pressed on against Garlemald. They get desperate, not wanting to lose, so Varis unleashes Blackrose to ruin our day. Around this same time, The Flood of Light is still going on the First, and is threatening to drown it entirely, which would cause a rejoining. Since Blackrose utilizes light-aether properties in it's effects, the rejoining would supercharge it, causing it to spread throughout the entire world, resulting in the Eighth Calamity, everyone dying, etc, etc. Meteion would still be alive, but her Deathsong still wouldn't be strong enough to cause the Final Days, since Zodiark would still be alive.
@@rickydargence5948 Cause G'raha came from the aftermath of that timeline. It had already happened where he came from, and so they pinpointed where the calamity came from, and sent him there in hopes of helping him to help us. It's why he was 'calling' us & the Scions with his spell in Stormblood. Trying to get us to not fight Garlemald head-on and history won't repeat again.
@@HintedImage Yes, I know that, but that's why that is the "original" timeline as ours needs for those events to happen in order to exist and not the other way around.
@@rickydargence5948 It was 'apart' of the original timeline', but due to what G'raha & the Calamity survivors did, it has been pushed out of the OG timeline. Everything *deviated* up to the point of Varis preparing to unleash BlackRose. Estinien & Gaius destroy supplies of BlackRose? *[It probably delays when it is actually released.] (Don't think it did, since he just had more, lol.)* Varis gives the order to unleash BlackRose on the Alliance? *[Zenos kills him and causes instability in the Empire.]* The Flood of Light takes the First and it is rejoined to the Source? *[We killed the Lightwardens, so no Flood, then stopped Emet-Selch & Elidibus from causing the rejoining.]* These deviating events occurred in the original timeline, effectively changing it, resulting in the Eighth Calamity never occurring. (This would mean that specific future technically doesn't exist, but they still do outside of the reality. The aftermath is in this short story from the Lodestone: na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_08/ )
so she sundered for two reasons? 1- stop final days. 2-prevent people (all) from asking to end their life after summoning zodiac? but u didnt mentioned zodiac is weaker if she sundered the world? thats the MAIN reason.
The second reason you mentioned is just speculation from Yoshida, but yes. She knew Zodiark had to be dealt with when mankind was ready to step up and defeat him, so sundering zodiark allowed his various pieces to be imprisoned on each reflection of the moon.
![Thou Must Live, Die, And Know [LV87 MSQ CUTSCENE]](/img/n.gif)
Venat's mentality is basically Nietzsche 101 (honestly a lot of his ideas permeate Endwalker as a whole). In comfort and safety, you find indolence and stop growing. The reality is the Ancient's issue wasn't their power, is was their inability to cope with suffering and struggle. Their lives had been perfect and at relative peace for such a millennia that the Ancients didn't have to learn how to cope with any sort of conflict. So when it came to their doorstep, their solution wasn't to fight it, it was to avoid it.
Zodiark's greatest sin wasn't the fact he was evil, it was the fact he was a superpowered bandaid for a much larger problem that needed to be dealt with at its core. But the Ancients didn't want to do that; they just wanted to stop their suffering as expediently as possible, to the point they were willing to literally sacrifice each other rather than overcome their despair, let alone figure out the source of Meteion's song and put an end to it wholesale. Not only that, but when they paid the price to stop the damage, they refused to accept THAT price and sought to LITERALLY UNDO the sacrifices they made.
Venat realised the Ancients were so incapable of coping with suffering, that the only solution was to force them into a reality where they were MADE to suffer. For without being tempered to suffering, not only did they have no chance of overcoming the Final Days, but they would meet the fates of civilisations like the Ea and the Plenty, who became so consumed by their naval gazing in relative perfection they lost sight of meaning.
Spot on analysis here.
Spot on
They wanted their old lives back without finding and dealing with the cause of the issue. Very well put.
This is my exact thought on the revelations of Endwalker. You worded it splendidly
No, Venat's mentality is Hitler on steroids with superpowers. Kill the subhumans, replace them with what you see as uberhumans, be their god - and watch the majory of them die, because fuck them, too, lol. Moon Nazis... uh, Moon Bunnies are the real way to go.
That shit reminds me of that game that made all Nazi leaders anime girls... though even anime Hitler is not as fucked up as Venat, I mean, not even Hitler wanted to DISTORT humans and just kill ALL of them.
Sometimes the only choices you'll have in life are bad ones, but you still have to choose.
Correct. Life is usually a gray situation, not just black and white. Choices are complex.
Nice reference. If ya know ya know 👍
I would hardly call it bad. The results might not be pleasant, but is clear black and white to me. Venat did the right thing. The ancients who refused to accept their loss deserved to be sundered, and the rest were on board of Venat's plans. So they either deserved it or wished for it. All is as it should be.
@@azatheeverchosen7615 Good thing she isn't one and that she knows better than the lunatics who keep burying their heads in the sand and pretend that nothing happened.
And sometimes you don't see all the choices because you are closed mindind and you choose a shit solution anyway... exaxmple: if you are raised by a father who tells you hitting your mother is a normal thing and forces you to do it, will it make it good? No! But would you be at fault? NO, cause you dont know better (btw this is form a real life event, where this actually happened) But here, she had other choices, yet she did not even consider them. She could have discussed with her people more, share what she knows. See for a better solution TOGETHER... i mean the whole point of this game is to tell you "you dont fight alone"... and then Venat is just going "yolo, biatch, imma do what i wanna"... nah mon. Not my cup of tea.
Venat and Emet are honestly some of the best written characters in this game
Emet is driven by his deep love of his home and his friends. Even when he appears with hythlodaeus in ultima thul, he is unapologetic in his ideals.
Venat is driven by her desire to see humanity perservere and is best exemplified by everything the scions endured
Alphinaud's strongest trait is his ability to show compassion to those around him and fight alongside them, this is best symbolized by Estinien's brotherly bond with him.
Urianger kept secrets from his closest friends because he believed that the end justified the means, but it was always conviction to save humanity
Y'shtola's yearning for knowledge has never stopped her from doing what she thought was best, despite what she learned
Alisaie's love and desire to protect everyone around her has given her great strength
Estinien's bond with the warrior of light, alphinaud and respect for ysayle and aymeric, allowed him to let go of his vengeance, and learn to love his friends and his world
For Thancred, it was Minfilia's sacrifice, which drives him to move forward.
G'raha sacrificed everything for the first, as the crystal exarch.
The Warrior of Light, her champion, always seeks more challenges, more adventure but never forgetting their compassion or their bonds, encouraging so many to rise up and fight
Defeating Gaius, ending the dragonsong war, liberating ala mhigo, ending the flood of light and defeating emet-selch. To Venat, we are everything she wished for.
Well said
You forgot Minfillia, Papy, and Lyse.
There were a few left out, but damn, just touched my heart. To do that for others has great purpose. Thank you.
Hydaelin confirms Yshtola theory in her farewell scene. The sundering was a way to manipulate dynamis (thinning ancient ones aether)
You’re right!
It’s never really easy to justify or dismiss what is essentially an impossible choice. It was in the long run the best choice she could make under the circumstances despite the amount of pain she knew the worlds and the lives on them would suffer.
If anything, it’s not entirely a conclusion for her rather than her struggle. She can let go and find rest. She’s fulfilled her purpose. And if the time ever comes, she could come back, but as someone or something new. Her influence will ever remain even if we continue the journey of XIV without her. So it’s more a conclusion of her struggle and conflict than her end. The journey never ends. And I think that’s a wonderful sentiment.
Edit: Yes I am aware she’s not coming back. Her soul is gone but what she left in her place won’t be so easily forgotten or fade away.
Spot on.
it is also confirmed in the Feb live letter that Venat is forever gone...long story short, she has been Hydaelyn for too long the aether that comprised Venat's soul is no more, so when we finally defeated her, she died for real, never to be reincarnated as Venat/a body who has the soul of Venat.
@@youiri65 I think you missed the point of the sentiment.
@@youiri65 Souls don't cease to exist that easily. Why do you think Meteion went to all the trouble of making a giant seal to hold souls in to prevent rebirth? Venat will never come back, but she will reincarnate eventually like everyone else does.
It must have been a terrible dilemma having to sit on the knowledge that she would inevitably become Hydaelyn, too. How much suffering for her and her people is enough before she pulls the trigger? Had she truly done enough before effectively picking the nuclear option? What if she did it too soon, could it mess things up? I've always wondered why Azem decided to sit out helping Venat out, too. I sincerely hope they eventually elaborate on that, since it seems like such a weird choice given the circumstances.
A friend and I debated one how hard this choice would be to make. She was burdened not only with the knowledge that her people would be destroyed, but her actions HAD to lead to the the current reiteration/timeline. It was a balancing act and on top of it, a choice that I myself do not think I have the capacity to make. To damn EVERYTHING you hold dear for the slightest possibility of saving just the smallest sliver or doom everything to oblivion. She knew she couldn't win, and no choice she made would have been the right one, all she could do was what she thought was right in that moment. She gave Etheris the greatest gift she could, she gave the gift of purpose. She sowed misery and destruction, pain and sadness just As Meteion was trying to do but it was the only way we'd ever be strong enough to face it and the Final Days. She wasn't trying to be a hero, she was just doing what she needed to give Humanity a chance even small.
She was in an impossible situation. She laments over this before dying too. She also made great sacrifices to try and save the star. The big difference between her and Emet is she believed in the future, while Emet clung to the past.
@@StoutHelm Hades ultimately realizes he was wrong (even though he admits he probably wouldn't have done anything differently).
I want to bring a couple facts to light. I don't know if these have mentioned, but the warrior of light tells Venat about the sundering. The warrior tells Venat of the fall of Zodiark. The warrior even goes so far as to tell Venat about the 14 reflections. While Venat did not know if they would succeed, She knew all she had to endure would come to fruition when a reflection of Azem looking exactly like the Azem of old came to Hydalyn. Since the warrior could not give an exact timeline, Venat had to fill in the pieces. She had a hard line to carry, but she knew that her struggles would lead to the first meeting. I think that gave her the continued hope to endure to the point of endwalker.
Our WoL doesn't have the same image as Azem. Their soul does. No lalafels, miqo'te's etc existed in Ancient times.
@@Pinkda1sy if you play a hyur, Emmett comments that the similarities are "disturbing". So presuming that the trailer hyur is supposed to be us, storywise, it makes sense that Venat need only wait for the person she met that day.
Azem and our Warrior don’t look exactly the same, they just have similarly colored souls. The details that the Warrior shared with Venat in Elpis are accurate though.
Okay y’all got me on that quote with Emet. I’m sure there are similarities, kind of like the sundered people in the source compared to the first. I concede haha
That was meant to be a rhetorical response from Emet because if anything related to Azem to him is trouble. At least from what I could perceive.
I'm kind of baffled that people are so staunchly anti-Venat for mass genocide (or at least death of identity), but pro-Emet-Selch who wanted to commit a larger amount of mass genocide across multiple worlds.
Both had their reasons but Emet-Selch certainly did way worse things working towards his goal than Venat.
because they want their husbando to live
@@StoutHelm It's even weirder because Emet-Selch in the past goes "Yeah, that's pretty megalomaniacal" when he hears about his future self.
Well to play devil's advocate:
Emet had a clear goal in mind and knew it'd work even with all that he'd have to do to achieve it.
Venat does not but has faith that it might work.
Emet is ultimately trying to fix a problem and rejoin souls and worlds
Venat split the worlds on a theory that ultimately lead to all the sufferings of history and set the stage for Emet to do what he did. She never warned the other ancients about what happened, not even the convocation to try and change the future.
If we go by direct action then Emet does more or at least assist in more killing. If we include indirect action or inaction then Venat does more.
@Александр Костров she knows what she's creating but she doesn't know if it will work. We talk to her before our encounter with the endsinger so she does not know that we will win. We also don't know the details on the early rejoinings so "he got right to killing" is a bit of a presumption. But we do know that his plan would have worked. We only know Venat's plan worked afterwards.
She suffered as much as Emet. Was it a Just decision? It’s a complicated thing, but what matters, like Emet, what was her reasoning behind it. Like Emet, Venat did it for a good cause and loved the people and life and carried a very heavy burden on what she did. Emet same thing, but carried the burden on losing his loved ones and trying to get them back. I was really REALLY afraid that maybe she’ll be a villain due to her being a primal, but no. After hearing her side of the story, she was very caring. The tribesmen that was made by her, the Loporrits, share that same affection and want to help.
The complex stories always make it more interesting. I know a lot of people speculated Hydaelyn would heel turn during the early parts of the games story but I’m glad that’s not the case. Final Fantasy’s tendency to make good gods actually evil is so played out.
I think people sometimes forget that this was not a choice she partook in alone. She was transformed into Hydaelyn by ancients who shared her belief that the only way for humanity to grow, it would need to learn how to appreciate life in all its forms. As Venat says this was not done out of kindness, but out of love. Love for the world and the life on it, that it would not be annihilated by grief and apathy. Venat as hydaelyn controls stasis which governs laws of creation for peace. To unmake the world, or at least unmake the world she knew. And sew the seeds of peace and love in the hearts of humanity through a shared struggle. So that one day they could stand up to the embodiment of hate and show how much stronger love can be.
Sometimes there is no right or wrong choice. Venat knew about the sundering from the Warrior of Light, but I think she knew given the circumstances it was the only choice. Had the Ancients performed their third sacrifice and restored the souls taken to create Zodiark the Final Days would begin again. This time, they likely wouldn't have had the means to stop it, as the souls that made up Zodiark would have returned to the star. They would have doomed their world. Venat's choice would have prevented that ultimate tragedy, but it was one that caused eons of suffering and grief. It wasn't a good choice, it was a right choice, it was the only choice that had the possibility of saving their world.
You're right, not everything is black and white. This is the way I look at it too.
I honestly postulate that Alexander was created by Venat herself. That in order to keep the timeloop stable there needed to be a way for the WoL to interact with her in the past. This also makes sense that Venats ability is quite possibly time related as she was the first to reconize you as being from the future. So Alexander was created and held in secret. That is until it was found out either by happenstance or purpose by the convocation that renamed itself the ascians. Even in the Alexander storyline there's a part where the au'ra couple meet up within Alexander. He tells her about all the calculations and at the end it's the orders of his mistress that the fate of thr star falls unto the WoL.
It wouldn’t surprise me. It’s said she had even more contingency plans than we became aware of for preserving life.
Venat was the first to recognize you were from the future because of the Blessing of Light you were carrying. A blessing that only Venat could cast, which as she never casted it on you to her memory up to that point meant that you had to have come from a future point in time where she had cast it on you.
@@TankHunter678 That's what I was overall getting at. Venat realize and understood the paramount crisis that was facing the star when you first transported back. Her traveler's ward (or bless of light) signaled that the only way that this person has this ward is due to time travel. As it seems (unless their mind is blanked / neuralized) the Ancients had a very strong memory, and ability to process data far faster than their decedents.
Emet flat out argued that time travel was impossible, even though it was proven as you stood in front of him. So the fact that Alexander (being the 3rd oldest Primal on Eythris) was crafted by Venant to insure the stability of the time stream. It also brings into question and possibly that the realm between stars is purposefully distorted via a time/space magic. This would also help in syncing up with a Graha's time and dimensional trip.
However still the biggest issue, where's the other timeline, the timeline that Graha left. What exactly happen to cause the chain of events to keep the paradox in motion.
@@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773 Well according to the lodestone side stories when G'raha went back in time and successfully changed the past it created a timeline branch. His original timeline kept going and everyone rallied under Midgarsormr when he finally woke back up.
We however are operating on a predestined timeline loop because we returned back to our time and did not change the past in any major meaningful way.
@@TankHunter678 I honestly would have preferred a branched timeline that could have reversed Venat's actions in another timeline so that the Ancients could be happy. They *deserve* happiness. They did not deserve to be *erased*.
Venat echoes my deepest conviction, one ive held since i was a child in fact. People. They always find a way forward, no matter the dire circumstances, no matter the terror inflicted upon them. As a rule i loathe humanity and what its become, but that doesnt stop me believing we can all be better, even if we slip and fall along the way, our potential is truly limitless.
I think we can all find value in Venat’s optimism.
The interesting part is that Zenos' morality speech comes soon after the scene with Venat. It pretty much forces us to ask the question : Do we not resent the outcome (The sundering, the death of the Ancients) because we approve the motive?
Short version: Yes.
Zenos is a sociopath, and he's just saying words to excuse something. If murders were in service to some greater purpose, however misguided, there would be some small comfort in that. Otherwise it is completely unnecessary carnage.
Venat, similarly, could have had good reasons to commit the sundering (and if I understand the mechanics of Zodiark being a feedback loop with diminishing returns, then she would) but none of those were brought up when she went on her anti-misery tirade.
So, yes, I would resent the outcome of Endwalker's revelations less if I approved of the motive.
@@lumijo2407
Zenos wasn't just "saying words to excuse something", he was making a point. If he had done everything he did to some other nation, Jullus wouldn't even have batted an eye, might've even justified it himself with some pro-Garlemald argument the same why Quintus keeps a "yours or mine" attitude. If he had done what he did but with some spiel about nationalism and noble sacrifice tacked on, Jullus would've seen it as a tragic but necessary evil. But since Zenos inflicted that suffering on Garlemald for his own agenda and no other reason, now it's suddenly an issue. That was the point he was making about those moral concepts being constructs of convenience.
Motive is what drives the human mind. Even a character like zenos was driven to fuel the flames of the Warrior of Lights anger towards him. Weighting the weight of our actions varies from person to person, since we each have the capacity to decide what is "good" and what is "evil" in our eyes. From our perspective playing as a sundered soul on the source, venats choice was entirely necessary and in her words done out of love for mankind, not hate.
The funny this is yes. That's how people work. That's even how our legal system works. We punish crimes less severely when we approve of the reason they were committed. We punish someone differently if their kill their husband for the insurance money verses if they kill their husband because he was abusive. It's the reason half the player base went from hating the Ascians to wanting to become one after Emet-Selch explained *why* he was committing genocide. Even after all of this has wrapped up, people keep looking at every character from a different shard wondering if they are a piece of Azem still wanting to finish the Ascian's goal if only for themselves. So yes, people do care why you do something, even when it's something awful. Especially when it's something awful.
I feel like if the rejoining did happen it’ll just be the ancient living in borrowed time, Meteion is still out there singing her song of oblivion and their would come a day that even with the full might of Zodiarc it will still end the star.
You’re right, they were doomed no matter what. Too much hubris.
We are still doomed. Heat death of the universe is inevitable
Hythlodaeus should have remembered everything cuz once he died and Kairos' magic should be nulled. But Idk whether Ancients will be able to defeat Meteion before their magick turned against them.
Also they don't have a best friend, who can turn into a dragon.
@@dullahandan4067 According to our current understanding of physics and the universe yes. But did you notice that little word there? "Current". We have millions and billions of years ahead to find a solution.
Hydaelyn's story was well concluded in EW. And it entirely changed the context of the song Answers.
About her sundering everything, it did enable their heirs, intentionally or not, to manipulate Dynamis (apparently our Limit Breaks are powered by Dynamis), making us the perfect species to fight against Meteion.
Dynamis and aether really deserve their own videos. And you’re right about the song. A lot to dissect there too.
I'm pretty sure "make sundered creatures that aren't so Aether-dense who can better manipulate Dynamis" was extremely deliberate, as well as seeding/fostering cultures that would better be able to overcome suffering and despair (remember the whole mantra about existence being suffering and to face it head-on from Thavnair). Not to mention seeding the whole idea of the Warrior of Light as a recurring emblem/embodiment of Hope itself in the face of despair and seemingly impossible odds (don't forget the story of patches 5.1-5.3 and what the Warrior of Light represents). The post-Sundered world was specifically engineered to be able to overcome what the Ancients could not, and bring Hope-fuelled Dynamis to bear against the Song of Despair, just in case Zodiark's protection ever failed.
Every Rejoining makes people more and more aether-dense like the Ancients and thus less and less able to manipulate Dynamis, which is part of why Hydaelin always called up Warriors of Light to try to avert the Calamities. The PC warrior of light succeeded in doing so at least once, who's to say their predecessors never did? We only know they failed to stop seven thus far, but who knows how many times the Ascians have tried over the millennia since the Sundering.
@@pseudonym6387 I can't give a quote or even the point in the story, but I also think some rejoinings have been avoided and that Azem's shard has lost before, because Emet-Selch tells us that there's always someone trying to ruin his plans.
I feel that the issue is that we KNOW that if Hermes goes into the Final Days NOT knowing that he's responsible for it, he is essential in helping to prevent the Final Days from outright wiping everyone out. If Venat went up and told the Convocation everything, that might doom the timeline in two ways 1: Hermes has an emotional breakdown and is unwilling or unable to do what he did in the Original Timeline, and the Final Days kill everyone 2: Hermes is willing and able, but the Convocation of fourteen doesn't trust him enough to let him handle things, and the Final Days kill everyone.
Yep. It’s hard to say what was the right call because who knows what tiny details would’ve derailed any efforts to save the star.
well not necessarily, another option would be that the convocation believed her and because they now knew what the real source of the problem is they don't waste all the time with the atherial currents and thus needed his help to fix it. and instead use their tech to build the spaceship similar to that we ended up building in our time. and taking off to find and hunt down the Meteion's before they where able to build up such power.
there's a lot of things that could of changed had she spoken up. though one thing is for sure, if she didn't speak up we already know what would happen as the wol is from the timeline where she didn't. So her speaking up at all would be a wild card that would make it impossible to know what would actually happen next. and to the WOL and everyone in the future. which could also lead to a paradox, because if they do manage to solve the problem of the final days with out such a cataclysmic event happening, there likely would be no reason for the WOL or anyone else for that matter to go back and Tell Vernat of the problem making her now unaware of what the problem is before she could do anything to fix it.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The ancients would have destroyed themselves if she hadn’t intervened. Sundered is better than extinct. It also gave them the ability they needed to beat the ultimate despair. You can’t fight dynamis with aether. If choosing between certain death for all, and death for many with the possibility of it ending the final days for the rest, I know which one I would go for.
That quote is so true! Mad I didn’t think of it when I was scripting this.
Lemme corrub
@@lunamaria8788 lol. Google talk to text Plus autocorrect is not my best friend. 😂
Star Trek does have a quote for everything :D
@@azatheeverchosen7615 Except that someone had to make the choice. If everyone stood around wringing their hands then the world would have ended then and there. There are hard decisions that have to be made, and sometimes life is about a ruthless calculus. How to save as many people as you can, even knowing that some won't be saved. None of these choices were good, but a choice had to be made, We can hem and haw about all the philosophical questions of free will and such, but in the end, Venat's choice was the only one that would allow humanity to even have a path forward. It might feel nice to say that she didn't have the right to make that decision for everyone, but it's simplistic and idealistic and when the world is ending and your species is on the brink of destruction and not able to stop looking backwards, that idealism will make sure that there are no survivors left to debate the morality of your actions.
Venat: "So tell me all about this "Dynamis" and how one might defend against it if it were to start spontaneously bombarding the planet from space".
Hermes: "Huh? How did you know about Dynamis and why is the proposed application so curiously specific?"
Venat: "Oh, no reason.........................."
Sus
I wish she asked
@@KaiSaeren taking away everyone’s choice is the big problem most folks have with her.
Despite what Yoshi said about her being dead dead, I think it's not that she's dead but finally able to rest properly, knowing that mankind will be fine without her around.
Now I wait for the day we possibly see Hythlodaeus and Hades reborn if they choose to be, if they do oh boy reincarnation Gacha will be fun lol.
remember there's also Artemis's reincarnation we're waiting on
I think he meant that while the blessing stays, we shouldn’t expect to see Hydaelyn or Venat at any point in the future.
My money is Hades ending up a very angry Lalafell.
@@Kylesico912x Mad because small. Jealous of tall...
Ah the XIII music at the start fits so well with Hydaelyn
I thought so too, XIII really has such gorgeous tracks.
The chrono trigger music in elpis fit just as great imo
@@thehurricane6767 I love being able to throw classic RPG songs into these videos. I’ll try to keep surprising you guys.
The Convocation and Venat had a similar choice: the deaths of many to save the rest. This choice is a hard choice to make. I can't even imagine what that kind of decision must be like. But then I am reminded of Louisoix's statement, "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom-it is indolence." I tend to agree with Venat's statement. IF I were in that spot, I suspect I would be forced to act. Not because more lives would be saved than would be lost. It would be because I would not suffer the regret I would for not acting. I would have the salve of saving lives to help with the regret of losing the ones I did. That would be a marked difference and my soul would not suffer for it.
You’re right. An incredibly difficult position to be in, but someone had to act. I’m sure she desperately hoped something would change and she wouldn’t have to sunder the star like the Warrior said she would. But it had to happen.
My one criticism would be that you mentioned a similarity between Venat and Emet-Selch’s judgments of humanity, but you neglect to connect it with Hermes’ as well. He wished to test humanity’s fitness to survive. Venat’s sundering didn’t challenge that - she actually doubles down on his experiment, choosing to bring forth great suffering in the hope that mankind can overcome it. Is that really so different from Hermes’ test?
This is a fair point. They both did similar things, it just happened to work out that Venat turned out to be the hero in this situation.
I feel like she gave humanity more of a fighting chance. The ancients never experienced true suffering and most of them were so overly confident in the use of aether they'd have never considered dynamis as something so worthy of being considered a threat. Also hermes wasnt in the room when we talked about the final days so i can only imagine he'd probably have lost faith in humanity and forsaken the test to simply have all life destroyed.
She thinned ancient aether, so they could be able to manipulate dynamis
Hermes' wasn't a test. He was just doubling down on his beliefs and perhaps assuaging his guilt with the act. He had already fallen in despair and didn't really think that any lifeform would be able to overcome Meteion. On the other hand Emet-Selch was never able to fully convince himself that current mankind wasn't worthy of protecting the star and acted accordingly.
It's difficult and nearly impossible to answer. Such a question isn't so black and white. It's Grey with ALOT of room for justifications and dismissals,but one thing is true. If Venat hadn't sundered the star then we would not be here now to face metion and save all of reality as we know it from oblivion.
That’s what I love about the game. It’s gray. Lot of the choices people made and acted was in the gray area. Venat did that, but her reasoning is what made her a great person. She did it to save and held onto the hope
You’re right, it’s a morally gray situation. Both answers have pros and cons. And Merable is right. Tough choice, but it had to be done.
Venat made the only gamble that would have been worth a damn in the long run. Even if she had pulled aside Hermes, beaten the details of Dynamis out of him, joined forces with the Convocation, and forestalled the Final Days somehow, it would never ever change the fact that the Ancients as a majority were a people incapable of facing true suffering. The Ancients depended on the Convocation to solve their problems, while the majority lived beautiful perfect lives. Its pathetic. At least on sundered Etheirys, the majority of people learn to endure. To fight and keep fighting, to be self-sufficient. That is why Venat chose to believe in them.
Was this not explored in post-SB as well? Godbert schooled Nanamo in this lesson - we cannot feed our habits of indolence. Charity cannot be made a habit, people must learn to survive on their own will.
There is one rather interesting thing that you didn't mention.
Since Venat was Azem she chose or at least recommended the current Azem (that we never see in our visit to Elpis) which basically means she chose us (as the traveling hero to solve the worlds problems) already way before she chose us later on to save it (again) for good.
So no matter how you take it.. Venat and us are very very close. She is like mother and best friend both.
Yep! A lot of parallels there. Hydaelyn’s exploits really deserve their own video.
I loved it! Thanks for framing it so that Hydaelyn and. Venat were separate entities. It's so easy to get.confused by the way things were presented during Venat's walk montage in the middle of EW. This vid helped tie up the details we got from ShB to the details we received in EW.I understand it much better now. Nicely done!
Thank you so much! Hydaelyn could be her own video down the road. I just didn’t want this one to get too long.
You touched briefly on a point that has intrigued me. Azem refused the overtures of Venat's little cabal. The question is "why". There is certainly a relationship between Venat and Azem (and I sense it to be a positive one). She shows great interest in his (our) exploits. So to totally ignore the invitation is out of place. However, I can't help thinking the unsundered Azem had the ability to perceive the future. We can do so even in a sundered state (as was demonstrated when we saw the Star in total chaos while on the moon). The Watcher, also, experienced it giving it credence. So maybe the unsundered rendition of the echo was massively more effective allowing Azem the ability to see what part he/she would be required to play and how Venat would best be left in the dark for some reason. You get another taste of Azem's ability to see the future in the intro to Pandemonium. I don't think we've seen the last of this plotline.
This is also something I really want to know more about. And it’s not that he refused, but implied that he didn’t give her an answer when she asked and he never got around to getting back with her. I wouldn’t be surprised if he could see glimpses into the future. Your points make sense.
So the Echo seems to be not so much a 'gift' from Hydaelyn as an inherent Ascian ability. And it is clear from Elpis that the Sight/Echo can manifest differently in people. IMO, our Echo seems to see into the Truth of people - we tend to see what motivates people to take the actions they do, to become who they are in the present.
If this is the case, then it is possible that Azem saw our conversation with Venat. Azem would have then seen that they are sundered - IE, cannot be part of either Zodiark OR Hydaelyn. So did not answer Venat to ensure that the WoL would inherit their soul.
@@Unholydragoon Excellent point. The storyteller when out of her way to make us aware that the "Echo" manifests differently, and even had us sit down with Hythodaeus so that he could explain some of those nuances. And, Venat said something about midway through Endwalker that I found interesting. She told us she had an ally that we would soon meet (Watcher)...and then said "and one other that may come into play." (paraphrase). That one other was, of course, Emet-Selch. So, she had the ability to separate dead souls. So, one could assume she, also, had the ability to separate out our soul when the sundering took place. Our role in the story doesn't really manifest until the 7th Calamity. Perhaps that was the tipping point where Dynamis became wieldable by the WOL and man finally had a chance. The "seven times I have failed" speech from Minfilia was, basically, a misdirection.
@@Unholydragoon The Echo isn't the same thing as the Blessing of Light, even though they are often confused for each other. The Echo is a leftover remnant of an Ancient Soul. Everyone who has the Echo was an Ancient like Venat, Hades, Hythlodaeus, and so on. Those who came from 'new' life don't bear the Echo. Hence why on the First only a few people had the Echo activated when Elidibus caused the starshower.
So basically every person we met, who had the Echo, Ysayle, Arenvald...they were once Ancients like the player was.
@@Unholydragoon this is correct.
I’m convinced that both choices were necessary for mankind’s survival. Zodiark was needed to halt the final days from dooming everyone on Etheirys, but the solution caused further problems. Hydaelyn was needed to imprison Zodiark, mostly to stop further and further sacrifices to him. Azem did seem to be searching for some other option, but they seem to have been unsuccessful before the sundering.
I think this is right. And I hope we someday find out more about what Azem knew, because it’s implied by the Pandaemonium raid that he could possibly see into the future. Is that why he never got back to Venat?
In Ancient Greek kairos signifies a proper or opportune time for action.
I love that so much in regards to the ancients is derived from Ancient Greek.
Btw. it seems to me they took good care of using the the correct ancient greek words correctly. (Except in Kairos which should've been Caerus (spoken Kairos too) because kairos refers to a qualitative period of time while Caerus is the god of luck and favorable moments, hence changing a moment of time or memory to give it another outcome would fall into hands of Caerus and the actual thing that happened would be referred to as kairos (rather than Chronos)) if I understand the ancient greek correctly.
I don’t know much about Ancient Greece but I to enjoy the references.
The background music is fitting for a part of the story in which time travel plays a big role XD
I commented about what you said at 13:20 in a previous video, guess Yoship agrees / that was the intended interpretation of the story
Seems like you were on the money.
Been gradually making my way through your vids and really love them. I hope more people find the channel too because it’s really good!
Thank you man. This made my day. New one drops in a couple of hours!
@@StoutHelm awesome, I’ll look forward to it!
Venat/Hydelin is my favorite character. Her whole saga leading up to our character touched me deeply.🤍
In Ancients one can see the flaws of ourselves as humans. We always strive towards perfection, yet we know we can never achieve absolute perfection, The Ancients felt they were perfect in every aspect, but when a literal doom came to their doorstep, they faced something they could only have imagined in the past. And thus their perfect world came to an end. And rather than try to find the source of the doom itself, they tried to restore things to how they were. Who wouldn't long for a past that once made you happy, but the cold hard truth is we can never truly return to such times. It's meaningless to even try that. And this is what Venat understood. To truly live and be happy, one must learn to live with suffering and strive forward and not dwell on something that is already lost. In Hydaelyn's words: "To live is to suffer. And in suffering, find strength. And purpose. And hope."
All I know is that Venat did what she had to, sadly her choice gave birth to multiple worlds (some of them destroyed thanks to the Ascians) intensifying the suffering amongst dimensions, but fulfilled her plan for mortals to achieve a method to use emotions as a key tool for mankind's survival.
Of course, she risked it, as not everyone would be able to surpress negative emotions, thus allowing them to take over and create cycles of unending hatred among the living. That was the only reason she didn't kill Zodiark, aside from not being able to, he was too strong.
Ironically, sealed and imprisoned, Zodiark bought the remaining universes a length of time for the WOL to steel themselves against Meteion.
Only thing that pissed me off is that as Hydealyn, she was ready to sacrifice the other worlds and only save the source, but she had no one she could count on, and time was not in her favor, even the Azem from back then didn'tdo a thing, at least for now we don't know yet, maybe Pandemonium may let us learn more from him/ her. If you join the military, don't complain, if you have to deploy, you have no choice.
I really want to know why Azem never gave her an answer. I’m confident we’ll find out eventually especially with the implications that Azem can see into the future.
@@StoutHelm I agree, but you know what, something buggers me, not sure but, I know Elpis won't be touched or changed, it's one of six areas in EW, but we know the FD will happen in their world eventually, or not, an Azem keeps contact with Thermis, eventually we'll have to tell the Pandemonium characters the truth.
I hope they do something about that, or maybe they won't bother to touch the subject. Then again, the Pandemonium story still going, maybe Elpis was spared from it he FD and we had something to do with it.
@@StoutHelm Maybe Azem was able to see the future, or we'll meet them begore this expansion ends, that's why he/she always chilling no matter how bad the situation gets...
@@cesblazikenturmoil9455 I don’t know if we’ll meet him because the mystery is what let’s players develop a head canon for what their Warrior is supposed to be. If anything we may come close but I don’t see us actually running into him. But I’ve been wrong before!
Dude you are destined for a ton of subs. Keep up the good work.
This made my day, thank you so much. Makes me motivated to dive into the next one!
The White Robe Ancients are specifically stated to be known as "absolutely impartial" and the only Ancients we meet that have earned that status are Venat and Elidibus. It's likely there are others, but it's implicitly a very rare accolade.
Excellent point to bring up.
Also given to those retired from official duty, which is rare given most choose to return to the star after fulfilling their duty. Few choose to eschew the custom. Venat just so happens to be the rare one. Elidibus however was specifically an Emmisary so his job was to be impartial.
@@acgearsandarms1343 This is why people are linking Themis (the Pandaemonium quest NPC) to Elidibus, as Themis is both young--as he is maybe a bit taller than a male Hyur--and wears a white robe already.
@@NebulonRanger The lack of mask and title may indicate it is before he became a member of the Convocation.
Here's an example which I think sums it up:
There's a single fireplace that keeps out the cold in the house. Hermes opened the door with Meteion for the cold to come in. The Convocation used half of their numbers as kindle for the flame. The Ancients then wanted to kill their children in order to keep the fire going. Venat said no and broke the fireplace. The Ancients were scattered to the wilderness, some wanting to rebuild the fireplace and their home. Meanwhile their kids grew up with the cold, eventually surviving and adapting to build their own homes.
Interesting analogy!
Weird to think that essentially in FFXIV, Etheirys (as it originally was) is akin to "Heaven" or "Eden." A "Perfect" Utopia and Paradise where "Man" knew only bliss and happiness. Where "Man" was essentially immortal "Angels" or some form of lesser "Diety," creating and nurturing life and building the world for which they lived from the ground up. They only ever died when they decided their work was done/complete and willingly returned themselves back to the aetherial sea. They, the "Ancients," "Man," or the "Ascians/Amaourotines," had a unique ability to manipulate all forms of matter in the FFXIV universe at will utilizing the abundant cosmic energy or "Aether" or the universe. So proficient was this ability, that they could literally rewrite or alter the very laws of reality. To create forms to the formless. Anything they thought of, they could create. And so immense was their Aether, that they were essentially forces of nature and destruction incarnate unto themselves. However, this would eventually lead to hubris.
I like the parallels to the countless other real-world stories that hint at our world, the Earth, being actually a "Sundered" place/realm/dimension. That there once was indeed true real magic, magical creatures and beings, and thousands of Gods/Goddesses/Deities that actually did exist. But in order to keep human-kind/man-kind moving forward and to save them from despair, madness, and eventual nihilism, that "realm" had to be forever locked away or kept out of easy reach. As Venat said in this cutscene: "I choose to believe in Mankinds potential. In his ability to find a way forward. So let there be no way back. From that temptation, I sunder us. No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk."
To me she is one of the best character in the game. I look at her in a two separate way: Venat and Hydaelyn:
Hydaelyn is like a Queen from a history book that put her work in a first place, that is not afraid to do what is the difficult thing in the moment, to be relentless knowing that this is best for her people in a long run, sacrificing "the fine now" for " a better tomorrow ".
On the other side you have Venat, a women that when she comes back at home after a hard day of work loves to read fairytales near the fireplace of Dragons, knight and princes going on adventures, a women that love to travel the world and be happy with her friends and families, tasting different foods and finding the joy in life.
Venat is not sure that " the sacrifice " is best for her people, she is afraid of the future and doubtful of what is to come- Hydaelyn knows that this is their best chance and she is ready to do whatever it takes, even giving up her own live.
We all have a little paces of Venat and Hydaelyn in ourself- the things we know we have to do and the fear of chousing, making the right decision, are we going to have the strength to walk it to the end like she did, making her character feel real even in a fantasy world. We will never know what is the future. Is what we're choosing now right or wrong but having the strength to keep going on even in the face of despair is the only way to find out, be true to urself and hope for the best, that way no matter what is to come you will be ok with it knowing you did the best you can.
Looking at FFXIV is like looking at art, everyone find something different in it, something that connect to themself making it special, unique. I am always ready to listen to the history of the game the lore of the characters in it, trying to find out more about them to understand the picture better, because to me it is a good painting to look at a rich one with many colors and you can easily miss something just like in real life.
Great video!!! Thank you for making it!!
PS: sorry for my eng, hope it is not too bad :S
Your English is really solid and even if it wasn’t, no need to apologize! I’m really glad you enjoyed the video.
I just had a interesting thought, Would the suffering that happened under Venat of happened if it wasn't for Emet and the rest of the convocation causing literally every single major issues that the world has ever faced? Almost every problem that is faced is some short of rement of something they caused to try and do a rejoining.
That suffering includes disease and short lives, so like...yes?
Not that it matters, she allowed Emet to escape being sundered. That's on her as well
@@rudolfambrozenvtuber I saw you commenting around, and I know you have a weird issue with venant and are way to engaged in this issue. So I don't plan on responding past this. You are taking this story and game way to personally. I've learned enough wiht arguing with people in the internet then to engage with bad faith people. good day.
@@littleowl3493 I fired off like 4-6 replies as I browsed the comments section. You can at least use a narrative that vaguely holds up if you want to concern troll dude
Since the beginning I’ve been team Hydælin.. EW portrait & finalized her beautifully.. 😍 Vanat rulez!!
Omg new video I'm excited to watch 😍
Loved it!!! Can't wait for the next updates thank youuuu 🙏❤️
Thank you so much! I’m really glad you’re enjoying them as much as I am making them.
@@StoutHelm I watched it as I was having breakfast it was a good watch 👌
@@no-yk2uf hope to provide you with many more
The lyrics of Tears for Fears’ “Everybody wants to Rule the World” ring eerily close to the end of days and Venat’s state of mind.
I’ll have to give this a listen.
I still think if her, Emet, Azem, Hythlodeus, and Elidibus banded together they could have prevailed
It’s possible. Some of the brightest minds the star has ever known.
I an this might sound wrong - comming from wow and quitting it 4 years ago, having being super invested into that storyline and whatnot and seeing where that ended up is horrible . Now with the FF story and venat i would say yes, fitting end , good buildup and curious where we go from here with the new story that awaits us all.
I’m excited for something with smaller stakes after all of these world ending calamities.
I was almost certain Hydaelyn would not survive Endwalker, going in. I wasn't certain how, but I knew she wasn't going to make it.
All I wanted was for her to get the closure that a mother deserved: the knowledge that her children will be okay without her.
Just from that angle, Hydaelyn's conclusion was perfect, and I wouldn't change a thing.
you should totally do a video on Ardbert ❤️❤️❤️
Ardbert is a huge favorite for me, I really should
I don’t blame the ancients. I’m in love with their peaceful and comfortable world. And if comfortability breeds weakness. Then I choose to be weak.
It could’ve put them on a path like the people of the final part of the Dead Ends, but ultimately we’ll never know.
@@StoutHelm Not a bad way to go, tbh.
No, I will not elaborate on the obvious that my answer is implying. And no, I don’t need help, thanks. Lol
@@pumpkingamebox hey, you do you friend. 😃
You had me at *Chrono Cross music*
My friend you are welcome here. We stan for Cross music.
Love this just one little bit the WOL nearly the whole reincarnation of Azem as they rejoined their soul with Ardbert Azem became nearly whole that's why Haydes sees Azem in their fight in shadowbringers hence why the WOL has a whole soul as they are reunited with what was sunders and brought back. Also the calamity rejoins part of the Source and its debatable that even pieces of Azem now 9 including the WOL and Ardbert belong in the WOL so the WOL is almost the whole Azem if not the whole as its stated that not everyone was sundered into 14 pieces hence why some souls are dencer than others as they have more parts within thememselves othe ancient ones.
But I loved this vid. I love that how they wrote Vernat rather than an all good character she was faced with almost impossible choices and what she did was for the betterment of the world.
She and Hydes are foils one seeks to rebuild a world that is past and gone and the other seeks to make a new world as all life is precious.
Both noble causes but one looked forward to the future and the other looked to the past to try and make their desires come true.
5 seconds in the video and I’m already crying
I’m sorry I got you so early.
Btw did you get a chance to see the translation of an interview with the writers about Hermes and Meteion?
It’s funny how their predictions played out, that people would be conflicted with how they saw those two.
They were inspired by Hear. Feel. Think., to really make you think about.
Also comparing meteion’s weakness to the emotions of others to social media.
How it was not until she was surrounded by the hope and love of others that she could think clearly with a balanced perspective
I did! I love those little interviews and what they add to the lore. The call backs are fantastic.
I would also like to point out that there is a time loop in effect here. And i think Venat knew that. We are the WoL exist because she sundered the world. We go back into the past and tell her about the fate coming. At this point She HAS to sunder the world, otherwise we wont exist. and wont travel back in time to warn her.
and although its not "canon" per se. There are other things involved too. Like Pandaemonium. What ever is going on We get pulled into it. And we are more than likely gonna solve what ever is going on. No time loop, no us helping with what ever the issue is. Now i get since its not part of the msq, its technically not canon. But hey, its another reason to keep the loop.
Do i think she still tried to change things, yes. But at the end of the day, she knew what needed to be done.
I think what you explained is called a Bootstrap
I don’t disagree. I do think a part of her was HOPING another way would appear, so all those people wouldn’t have to suffer and rebuild. Unfortunately this was the only way to deal with the problem.
Raids are part of cannon, even if not directly in the MSQ path. See the Crystal Tower and Omega raids for prime examples. Everything that happens in-game is cannon, MSQ or not -- you never know what might become relevant down the line.
And there is a strongly implied implication that we did cause an alteration in the timeline -- Venat says as much when she repeatedly says a convergence is happening. The Hydaelyn we encounter in the aetherial sea is a combination of "our Hydaelyn who recruited us" and the "Hydaelyn created by the Venat we encountered in the past". So the Hydaelyn that recruited us probably did the sundering without any foreknowledge, while a Venat with that knowledge followed a parallel timeline that eventually merged in EW. The merger has most likely been getting closer and closer since ARR, which may explain why Hydaelyn talked to us less and less as time went on -- she felt the convergence happening and withdrew to let us walk our own path to get there, conserving her energy for the inevitable final test she expected was to come.
@@jsalemiva this is correct. That’s why they went back and made Crystal Tower a requirement for Shadowbringers
"No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise, henceforth he shall walk."
I shouldn’t have omitted this quote from the video in hindsight lol
The robes are very Kingdom Hearts...
Something that no one in the comments has addressed is that the very nature of the Ancients led to a casual cruelty and callousness that was the ultimate cause of their undoing. The way they'd kill something, in order to use their creation magics to make something else, was pretty horrible. Hermes was right about that. The Ancients weren't very nice people. By sundering them, Venat/Hydalin essentially taught them all some humility. Up until then they'd been so powerful that they simply ceased to be able to relate to less powerful creatures. They were gods and every one else was expendable and they couched it in 'the betterment of the star'. Sure, they probably made the planet really pretty, but at what cost? Hermes' anguish over the arrogant cruelty of his people is what led to the creation of Metion and her sisters and thus the destruction she brought. Venat broke the power of the Ancients and stopped them from the terrible misuse of their power. Emet-Selch and the others are justifiably sheepish at the end and I do hope that they recognize finally just how destructive they'd been as a species. I felt bad for the sorrow that Emet-Selch was feeling at the loss of his world, but I was also relieved that the Sundering wasn't undone, because that would have simply started the cycle anew.
you right
and it is no a coincidence that the ancients have literelly gods names...
Hermes
Hades...
(I think Lahabrea's true name it will be Poisedon)
Do you not use mob parts in your crafting? We clobber creatures into a bloody mess and harvest whatever that could be salvaged to make food, gears and furniture. The ancients just do it in a much more efficient and humane way.
@@LalaOfLight that's... not at all comparable. Exterminating an entire species with a wave of your hand simply because their colouration is a little too much on the blue side for your liking is completely different from hunting a handful of animals and ensuring every part is put to use. There are cultures irl who use every part of the animal out of respect for the life that was taken to give those things; the ancients, on the other hand, had complete callousness and disrespect when it came to the lives they created, snuffing out entire species simply because they didn't suit their projected needs. They are not, in any way, the same circumstance.
@@keppakappa5033 But it is comparable. It's a about perspectives. To the ancients, life is not as precious than it is to the modern men because it can be easily created at will. To them, it's just another state of the aetherial resource that they were able to manipulate. If I synthesized the wrong item, I just desynth it and start over. To them, 'correcting' a creation is much like that, but on a much higher tier. They don't even hold their own lives above it, as they viewed their own lives as part of the cycle of nature. They are doing what they thought was the greater good to their understanding and not out of callous intent. Besides, wasn't our initial role to eliminate all creatures created via summoning just because we view them as a threat to our environment?
Morality isn't absolute black and white, and values can be different between cultures. What I am saying is, try to understand the position of those different from you instead of just trying to condemn them or calling them savages. What we do here today might be viewed as monstrous by someone with a different understanding of the world, but we do what we can with the best intentions, because that is all that we can do.
@@keppakappa5033
*"snuffing out entire species simply because they didn't suit their projected needs."*
--------------------------------------
Meanwhile, tons of FATEs boil down to "the population of X species is too big for peoples' liking. Start culling."
It was basically Pick Your Poison
This video is so good. 100% agree!
Thank you so much, I’m glad you enjoyed it!
You have to wonder what will happen to the lifestream and star itself. What with a sudden introductory surge of aether from not just two elder primals but the dense ancient souls within.
Maybe we will see the consequences of that down the road. Very good point to bring up.
@@StoutHelm Moreover... What of Venat's enchantment? What of the reflections that still have bits of Zodiark within them? Legit I'd be down to discuss this stuff any time. FFXIV is just one of those things that really captures the imagination and leaves you guessing.
@@shadowfiend9660 Yoshi answered that in the LL -- when Zodiark was destroyed on the Source, all the reflections of him were destroyed as well. Nobody asked, but we can from that assume the same is true for Hydaelyn.
@@jsalemiva Hindsight lmao. Came back to this comment after all this time. Guess I got my answer and I was right to be suspicious.
Venat/Hydalyn is the first time in a game I have CRIED after beating a foe :P Endwalker broke me bad and after I had done the main story I just couldn't go on FFXIV like 2 weeks as I needed to get my self together. They did SUCH a great job the writing team :P
one thing that really annoys me about the comparison of Emet Selchs actions to Venats that I keep seeing in comments is the fact that people tend to boil it down to "bbbbut they BOTH caused suffering!!1 therefore BOTH did a genocide and are EVIL (except for emet bc he's sexy and that obviously excuses any and all actions)".
here's the real difference between the two: Venat sundered her people (not KILLED, sundered into different parts) partly as a way to reduce their aetheric density, but also as a way to expose them to hardships and temper them to suffering that they would have otherwise had to deal with if they didn't have godlike powers. she essentially made them on the same level as all other life on their planet, no more or less powerful than anything already existing. any suffering that came about was a result of a people without the immense power they once had having to learn to deal with it in other ways, NOT from her direct actions. she never went out of her way to cause any suffering in any form, she simply took away the ancients ability to instantly wave it away. she did not view any life as being more important than any other.
Emet Selch, on the other hand, established a fascist colonial empire with the express intent of directly sowing suffering and chaos across the land in order to meet his ends. He did not view anything that wasn't an unsundered ancient as being worthy of life, and that reflected in every action he made. He directly caused multiple, actual genocides across multiple worlds, and if his ass hadn't been handed to him so readily he would've happily continued until EVERYONE across 13 shards was dead, just so he could sacrifice another half of all life on his rejoined Source to bring back the glory days of... ignoring the existential threat that threatens the entire universe by slapping a big Aether bandaid on his problems and calling it a day.
People way too readily want to worship and forgive a dude that established a fascist empire and committed mass genocide because they wanna fuck him and are WAY too quick condemn a woman who didn't kill anyone and valued all life equally because, well... she's a woman they don't wanna fuck. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Emet shouldn’t be forgiven and I think he knows he was wrong at the end, he’s just stubborn. But his crimes are certainly worse. And your point on the sundering is tough, because even though those souls would eventually be reborn, did that mean death? Or something different?
@@StoutHelm but were they even "reborn" at the moment of sundering in the first place, though? I don't think there was anywhere that says so definitively (if there is I'm happy to be corrected), but assuming nowhere said they died and were reborn at the moment of sundering, my assumption is that they were split into different beings as they were; still alive, just across different worlds.
this could also explain things like the cave markings found at Raktika that showed a much more detailed vision of what happened at the moment of sundering than anything the visons the Echo showed us (which was essentially just a meteor shower/destruction of a world). the people who were immediately sundered could have retained partial memories of the events that led up to it, memories that would eventually be lost upon their eventual mortal deaths and rebirths as part of the natural cycle of life.
Sundering is a death of self. Or did you forget, Hermes and Amon are not the same?
I believe that Hermes never figured out that Dynamis was the cause for the final days after his memory was wiped. He had always thought it was a weak energy with little influence. The ancients thought that the planet itself had a fatal flaw, where the 3rd web of atmospheric aether was thinning and causing catastrophies.
Remember that dark aether is the element of movement and change so they summoned a dark primal powerful enough to make the 3rd layer pulse with aether and "rewrite the laws of nature" in their mind fixing their creation magic. But in reality it acted as a shield to the dynamis they couldn't perceive. They found a treatment but never knew the cause.
I always like to compare Venat to Pandora. The woman that would end up out of curiosity open up the box that would unleash hell onto humanity. Only to slam it shut before the last piece that would have saved humanity. Hope. Thus is why it is called "Pandora's Box".
BUT in Venat's case, she knew doom was going to burst forth from that box. Instead of hiding from it, trying to seal it away, or even fight against it. She kicked open the box and let all hell loose and watched as the people of her kind panic and pray for salvation. Yet, their prayers were meant with silence. She, of course, did look in the remains of the box and found one little thing. A tiny little glowing orb that was huddled away inside. Taking it, and she saw something that the others lacked. Hope. She saw a better future. One that was not going to be easy, but one that would strengthen the resolve of "Man" (Using general term here). She walked the long path she set for herself. The struggles she fought. All the suffering she wrought. Yet, she never once lost sight of Hope. That all of this would bring a better future and bring an end to the cycle her people had created.
And you know what? She did. She saw the cycle broken, and a new beginning had finally started. Her hopes and dreams had finally come to past. Time for her to rest.
Once your society falls into the spiral of killing its way out of all its problems it’s already over. Eventually you’d have nothing left except a lone survivor with no one else left to kill. Add to that their sacred power of creation being twisted into the power of destruction and it’s a double whammy. Her way gave life a chance. Theirs had become a cult of death.
The ancients could’ve easily become just like some of the societies we saw in the Dead Ends dungeon.
I can't wait to see Imaran comment on this video.
Think he will?
@@StoutHelm I hope so, haven't had a good laugh in a while.
14:07 did you realize Hydaelin has wings for ears too? More Dragon Shaped than Bird tho.
I hadn’t noticed that, but interesting detail.
the name of your channel reminds me of a friend i had in ffxi, he was named Stout Heart and if i remember correctly, he was a DRK Galka in Quetzalcoatl... could it be....?
Sadly no. I was a plain ol’ Hyur Dragoon back in the day and didn’t go by Stout.
@@StoutHelm that is ok, it would have been amazing to find my friend again, but at the very least i found a very amazing ffxiv lore channel, all of your videos are great so far, i specially love the one about the growth of Zenos as a character, you are an amazing creator
The way I saw it, Venat could not reveal anything because that would destroy the time-loop and cause an uncertain future that might as well be worse than the future she was told about where humanity stood a chance. And because she didn't reveal anything to those in charge, the council and most of the people didn't know what caused the Final Days. They could speculate, research, but never figured out that it was something from out in space. They assumed it was a flaw in the planet because, as all-powerful beings, they couldn't see anything beyond their own noses. They felt like they were the center of their own universe. They knew Dynamis existed and was involved, but not how to change it. So they made Zodiark, a regenerative deity-like entity. Since the raw aether-filled regeneration power inadvertedly stabilized the planet's Dynamis, they presumed they had FIXED an issue internal to the star itself. Which lead them to feel empowered to sacrifice more into this plan in order to 'reset' the now 'fixed' planet and its people back to the original state of things before the Final Days. Which only Venat knew would just restart the cycle because the root cause, Meteion, was still out there. They didn't even consider that there might be a root cause that needed fixing, so Venat chose to take away their power over creation to stop them from generating a self-defeating loop from a tunnel-visioned desire to stop their own suffering. Sundering the world was a delay tactic to stop the others from completing their Zodiark project, because none but her knew their hope was a false one. Nobody knew that Zodiark was a band-aid because they were too smug to even consider the fact that their plans could be anything but a complete fix to any problem.
The smugness was a huge problem. Possibly even the biggest problem.
You know what would have maybe helped?
Telling them the cause of the FD so they just wouldn't be taken completely of guard and could prepare
All the deaths are on her hands
Fuck that genocidal bitch
Anyone else notice her neck is a tad abnormal? It's like 2 necks in one. It seems that some characters have the stretched neck..while others don't.
I think it’s just the way ancients are built. Super long elezen style necks
@@StoutHelmoh
I can’t remember the exact quote, but essentially she says she had to do it, to prevent who ever came after from doing the same thing and repeating the mistakes of her race.
That FF11 airship music, though....
It hits, doesn’t it?
@@StoutHelm Yes very much lol.
Tbh I still dont know why, why did she have no other recourse but to oppose the 14 and create Haydelyn? Surely there were ways to let her people know, work towards a solution, she had knowledge nobody else did, knowledge without which we also would have been lost, I wish we got to see her actually trying out all she could before the sundering became the only option. Especially after Zodiark was created, her people had learned suffering and could have learned to live through it and grow through the experience if their suffering was given meaning, an answer, fighting an unknowable all powerful destruction is far different than the fight we had and even then, many of our people would also shut down and wish for their peaceful days to come back, its very human, each side had people to spearhead their survival, but instead of a united front we were afforded, their representatives were stumbling around in the dark due to not being priviledged with the information we got.
Fantastic video tho, I always feel like im missing something and I love having peaces from other peoples views to fit into my understanding :)
That’s the only question I have to, was this reallt the only way? I remember someone asking Yoshida this through a live letter and he sort of dodged the question, but did compare Venat and Emet-Selch’s conviction and decision making.
The description starting around 4:30. "Meetea", does anyone else recognize the similar word and conjuncture to IRL?
Which word are you referring to?
I gave Hydaelyn a lot of crap before Endwalker. Often cursing her when losing rolls on rare items. After learning her story though my opinion changed completely.
You were blaming the wrong deity, should’ve been cursing the RNG gods.
To me it’s clear that Venat and Hermes were of the same mind.
In fact it could be said that Hermes decision to put Etheirys to the test AND to stay behind and fight for it inspired Venat.
Hermes saw that they were the 1%ers of the universe, and seeing how the ancients were the 1%ers of etheirys and how they judge what is worthy of living, permitted meteion to also perform that judgement.
To allow meteion to share the pain and suffering of the 99%ers with the 1%ers of the universe.
And Hermes then, instead of sparing himself to go with meteion, was the first to CHOOSE to stay and meet that challenge.
Venat seeing how the ancients would use zodiark to spare the 1%ers from sharing in the collective suffering of the universe, in stark contrast to Hermes’ willingness to meet that challenge, to not turn a blind eye to the suffering of the cosmos, Venat was disgusted and ashamed of the ancients’ willingness to sacrifice everyone else to stay locked away in their walled garden free of suffering.
Didn't Venat sunder humanity, so that it had a fractured soul and couldn't use or crutch on creation magic to fix its problems? That is how i interpreted it.
That is part of it. She knew ancients as they were couldn’t harness dynamis to stop the song of oblivion.
What is the background music on the first minutes of this video? :)
That’s the main theme from Final Fantasy 13!
@@StoutHelm ah okay. Thank you!! XD
@@StoutHelm i also would like this opportunity to say that I really like your content and lore! XD
@@rmfelias thank you so much man! That means a lot. I’m really glad you’re enjoying it.
Food for thought for the commenters: Venat never said anything akin to Hear, Feel, Think, like Hydaelyn often says, but there was someone else who said it in their own way.
Then... What about the Dark Mother Crystal?
You know.. The one that we saw in that one cutscene...
Or was that.. Removed. Or Forgotten.
That was Zodiark. I can’t remember exactly where it was stated, but Yoshida confirmed it.
@@StoutHelm But Hydaelin wasnt the crystal
@@TheMaxCloud the dark crystal from early on? Or the one that speaks to use several times in ARR?
@@StoutHelm in early ARR, there was this Mothercrystal, which we thought was hydaelin but it was the Giant Crystal inside Etheiris.
But in several cutscenes ANOTHER crystal appears, which has a Dark appearance to it
@@TheMaxCloud that dark crystal is meant to represent Zodiark.
I wanted to point out that the vast majority of ancients only knew of aether, Hermes openly stated that very few ancients even knew dynamis even existed. Only a few scholars and such. The ancients couldnt react correctly to the problem because they didnt understand the concept of dynamis. This was explained when Hermes was introducing the flower that utilized dynamis.
Was it revealed why she did not sunder the 3 unsundered Ascians? Was it her choice to leave those 3, who in turn decided to undo the sundering, or was it because those 3 could not be sundered in the first place? I haven't done the new raids so my apologies if it were already explained there.
It’s implied that Venat willingly allowed Emet-Selch to slip through the sundering and he saved Lahabrea and Elidibus in the process. She probably remembered that Emet was a big part of the Warriors success in the future and knew she needed him to fulfill his role.
@@StoutHelm Eh he probably didn't save eldibus... if you recall at time he was like Venat a part of his primal for the will
@@Ladywizard he wasn’t, he abandoned zodiark to try and sort out the fighting. If he was part of zodiark at the time, he would’ve been sundered as well.
I just want to know are we or aren't we tempered by Hydalen? How would we even know?
We don’t have any evidence or suggestion to believe Hydaelyn tempers. Plus we have the blessing, we cannot be tempered.
I apologize if this was answered already and I missed it, but when we say the WoL is a shard of Azem, and Azem is the title of the seat holder, does that make us a shard of Venat?
No. The most recent “Azem” was the one sundered, and the WoL is several of their shards rejoined. Venat is a different being, she just held the seat before the most recent Azem.
@StoutHelm Thank you for the quick response. I wasn't expecting much since this video is a few years old. I just found your channel, and it's been fantastic at filling in the gaps I missed during my first playthrough!
@@raytreader9877 I'm glad you're enjoying them! And I try to keep up with comments as best I can even for older uploads.
Not gonna lie, but Ancients were wild as fuck. I did two sidecquest in Elpis:
The first one, I helped a girl return to the star (she comitted suicide)
The second one, some dude had me danced with the devil's pet, wasted my fate momentum.
They were to wild, I support Venta's choice.
They got a little too far up on their high horses.
The way I see it... Venat did what was best for everyone. Most of her fellow Ancients were so desperate to maintain the utopia they had that they would sacrifice their own people again and again so that Zodiark would keep it going.
They were soft... they knew nothing of the kind of struggle that strengthens character. They feared the struggle, they dreaded the struggle. So they were willing to sacrifice everything to see their complacent and comfortable lives continued.
Ancients were definitely going to be their own downfall anyway. Even if the sundering caused problems of their own.
The problem she didn't do anything to stop them from that course
@@thorbenlehnert6138 What could she have possibly done?
She was the only Ancient to leave Ktisis Hyperboreia with her memory intact.
She is up against an entire government who decided that summoning Zodiark and sating his greed for souls was the only way to keep the utopia alive against the Endsong and the Final Days it brought about.
Her path, right as it is, definitely is one of hardship the likes of which none of her fellow Ancients were prepared for.
And in the end she was proven right. Us mere mortals with fragmented souls managed to defeat the literal end of the universe... something those unsundered Ancients could not do, because they never could grow strong enough to even try.
I'm talking before the final days began.
She should have worked on a way to prevent the final days together with the conversation so that way the damage could at least be minimized
The ancients would have already known about the analysis that Hermes did on the currents and they would know their enemy
Did you forget they had the echo which would have confirmed Venats claims
They could have created beings that could control dynamics or sundered a few of themselves to learn to control it
We already know they were capable of building a spaceship so they could confront meteion(Venats also knew were she was) we know enough ether can block out dynamics so Zodiark or something somewhat close to his power should just be able to defeat Meteion(especially if this is before she has fully created her domain)
We only win because of Emets and Hythlodaeus creation magic so no the sunderd really didn't accomplish anything on their own
Venat was stupid, plain and simple
And don't start with this " she couldn't change the future" shit
We know from shadow ringers that by time traveling you create a new timeline so it isn't set
Convecation not conversation sorry
He summoned Kairos. Fateweaver.
Ok I'm confused...I thought they created Zodiark and Hydenlin not summon them; where the Elitibus at the time became the heart of Zodiark (to which the Elitibus we deal with is another one promoted after the first sacrifice) and obviously Venat becomes Hydenlin (much like Louisaoux became the Phoenix to defeat Bahamet).
The Venat cut scene also is a little confusing as to the second sacrifice was already made so why is the sky and everything still burning and how did she sunder at the end where the people she confronted were the ones doing the third sacrifice to Zodiark. So was her group doing a sacrifice off camera as she confronted them and once she gained the power she sundered the star becoming Hydenlin?
It's seems different from what Emet told us in the cave in ShB.
Good question. Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both created and summoned. And as far as we know we’ve only ever encountered one version of Elidibus. He becomes the primal’s heart but later leaves the primal to try and mediate the problems between ancients.
Also the Venat cutscene is metaphorical, not an exact retelling of events as they happened. We’re shown a sped up version of what happened. It is still true that Venat had followers that helped with Hydaelyn.
Small retcon to stop folks from seeing hydaelyn in a negative light. Hydaelyn has to be the absolute good otherwise the whole story falls apart. Can't have the golden girl have any depth
@@Beathemighty I get what you’re saying but she acknowledges the pain that her decision with the sundering caused. Yoshida said during a live letter that Venat’s decision was definitely one an ancient would make, and that her own hubris was similar to Emet’s conviction. She just happened to be skewed more on the side of good. That’s the beauty of their struggle, both sides have their pros and cons.
@@StoutHelm and while that is nice to say in reality Hydaelyn made an absolutely selfish choice and the story does everything in its power to gaslight players into accepting it wasnt.
A throw away "I'm sorry" line after a roller coaster of a duty and an emotional boss fight with answers playing in the back round is not what makes a fair representation of one of the games top 5 murderers.
But unlike the other 4 top murderers (Hermes/Amon/Fandaniel , Emet Selch, Meteion , Zenos) we as players are not allowed to feel any resentment towards her.
@@Beathemighty you are free to have your resentment, but it doesn't mean we all have to feel the same way.
I agree with Venat's decision on many levels. Even if the Ancients had managed to defeat the Meteia their civilization would likely have ended up like every other in the Dead Ends. What would have happened when they finally felt they had nothing left to give the star? When all the meaning of their existence was lost? Would they have found the strength to find a new purpose or wallowed in despair? What if they hadn't defeated the Meteia? As aetherically dense as they were there is no guarantee they could have had any effect on the Endsinger. Remember they couldn't even locate Meteion when she went invisible. Should they continue to instead hide away beneath Zodiarks shroud while he slowly but assuredly consumed the worlds aether with each sacrifice needed to maintain his power?
Get over yourself. She made a decision, a hard one, and stuck to it with the hope that it would ultimately allow life to continue. It was a horrible choice but so was every other possible choice in the instance. So hate her if you must, but don't expect every other player to hate her just because you do.
Hillariously 13, 15 and 16 all had top gods who were sociopathic assholes. Venat is an interesting variation in that she does do bad things, but unlike Bheinvulze, Bahamut and Ultima she REALLY is working for the greater good.
Never forget momma Venat.
So how does time travel work in FF14?? Is this just a multiversus version of Venat/Hydaelyn? Or a sort of paradox?
Which are the 3 that weren't sundered? That is what I need to learn afterwards
Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus. They all merit their own videos but I may do a general “what ascians are left” video that can hit the high points.
@@StoutHelm Yes please. I can't wait for that :)
@@StoutHelm Technically there were four, if we count Venat herself. It's just the other three, being either tempered by or part of Zodiark, never acknowledge her.
Hell, she (as Hydaelyn) even states this directly--she calls herself "the last of her kind". She knows Elidibus, Emet-Selch and Lahabrea are gone, so she's the only Ancient left.
@@NebulonRanger that’s actually something I can’t recall if it was ever spelled out for us. I have to assume hydaelyn wasn’t sundered given she was the one casting the spell. But I suppose the other option is also possible.
Not that I think it matters much now.
The worst part for me is that she didn't even get to return to the star. She was just gone... 😭
I thought time travel in XIV was the same as time travel in Avengers Endgame. Where your actions in the past don’t effect the present you come from it just creates an alternate timeline that exists parallel to yours
They stated that everything that happened would preserve the natural flow of time. Nothing deviated from the events as they originally happened. Sort of like the line from Loki when the judge tells him that what the Avengers did was always meant to happen.
@@StoutHelm so Loki retcons the rules of time travel established in Endgame? And dismissed those rules by saying "this was always part of the plan"
Even though Elidibus stated you traveling back would have no impact, clearly he was wrong or underestimated what influence someone could have in those circumstances. I interpreted it as the past can certainly be changed, but that the changing of the past is part of the loop. It was always going to happen in terms of a “sacred” timeline.
@Александр Костров I think it's this ^^^
The shade state is an excellent point. How could he know Emet would empower us?
If you think about it the ancients were doing the same. Constantly sacrificing themselves
I called venat mommy lol.
So many did.
I hope this is adressed at some point but, how was the "time loop" possible in the first palce if in the original timeline the WoL died by the black Rose? For the timeloop to actually happen it requires another instance of time travel by G'raha for it to happen? Did the WoL told Venat about this as well? How did she pull it off? This means there is another timeline where Meteion is alive but the timeloop didn't happen?
The Blackrose Timeline *IS* the alternate timeline, lol. 😅
It's what happens if we would have pressed on against Garlemald.
They get desperate, not wanting to lose, so Varis unleashes Blackrose to ruin our day.
Around this same time, The Flood of Light is still going on the First, and is threatening to drown it entirely, which would cause a rejoining.
Since Blackrose utilizes light-aether properties in it's effects, the rejoining would supercharge it, causing it to spread throughout the entire world, resulting in the Eighth Calamity, everyone dying, etc, etc.
Meteion would still be alive, but her Deathsong still wouldn't be strong enough to cause the Final Days, since Zodiark would still be alive.
How can that be if the current "present" in FFXIV exists only because of the events from the Black Rose tiemline and G'raha's time travel?
@@rickydargence5948 Cause G'raha came from the aftermath of that timeline.
It had already happened where he came from, and so they pinpointed where the calamity came from, and sent him there in hopes of helping him to help us.
It's why he was 'calling' us & the Scions with his spell in Stormblood. Trying to get us to not fight Garlemald head-on and history won't repeat again.
@@HintedImage Yes, I know that, but that's why that is the "original" timeline as ours needs for those events to happen in order to exist and not the other way around.
@@rickydargence5948 It was 'apart' of the original timeline', but due to what G'raha & the Calamity survivors did, it has been pushed out of the OG timeline.
Everything *deviated* up to the point of Varis preparing to unleash BlackRose.
Estinien & Gaius destroy supplies of BlackRose? *[It probably delays when it is actually released.] (Don't think it did, since he just had more, lol.)*
Varis gives the order to unleash BlackRose on the Alliance? *[Zenos kills him and causes instability in the Empire.]*
The Flood of Light takes the First and it is rejoined to the Source? *[We killed the Lightwardens, so no Flood, then stopped Emet-Selch & Elidibus from causing the rejoining.]*
These deviating events occurred in the original timeline, effectively changing it, resulting in the Eighth Calamity never occurring.
(This would mean that specific future technically doesn't exist, but they still do outside of the reality.
The aftermath is in this short story from the Lodestone: na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_08/ )
so she sundered for two reasons? 1- stop final days. 2-prevent people (all) from asking to end their life after summoning zodiac? but u didnt mentioned zodiac is weaker if she sundered the world? thats the MAIN reason.
The second reason you mentioned is just speculation from Yoshida, but yes. She knew Zodiark had to be dealt with when mankind was ready to step up and defeat him, so sundering zodiark allowed his various pieces to be imprisoned on each reflection of the moon.
I will say this with absolute certainty. Venat is probably the strongest, best written character in the entire franchise.
One of the better ones for sure.