Examining The Croquet Kid Schoolhouse!

[@gitpickn8551]

I am a huge fan of the Old West and Billy the Kid is my favorite outlaw. I study, I read and watch any documentary I can find including everything put out by the legendary Gale Cooper. So thank you for covering this schoolhouse, it was very interesting. THANK YOU!

[@getoffenit7827]

Small wood houses were sometimes built with used lumber from shipping crates that were carried on trains or even the train box cars,My great great uncle lived in northern texas and his house/barn were both built using lumber from 2 or 3 damaged box cars that came from the railway going thru texas...nobody actually 'ordered' boards or planks from a sawmill in places where adobe was the norm,But if you could find a source of used lumber,cheap..some people would build wood houses,Nothing fancy or multi story but small,comfy and plane..usually wherever the boards or planks came from would dictate the size and shape of the house

[@thepuckchucker]

I don't believe this is the location for the photo, based primarily on the hill ridge(s) behind the image, especially the right side behind the trees. The person that is believed to be Billy, while the photo is from some distance is compelling. Keep up the awesome work Mike, appreciate your passion.

[@danoelrich2499]

These are a pretty good group of commenters. Refreshing that there are only a few scoffers/didactic sorts. I think in these sorts of matters, that it’s important to remember that none of us have watched this area, constantly, for 150 years. Never a need to imply that anyone’s guess is invalid. Bravo to the many commentators that have remained open and respectful. Sadly, in regard to many Old West photos, this is a rare thing to see.

[@mistyjames810]

Hi Michael! I've never been a believer in this photo. I just felt something about it wasn't quite right! Glad to see you doing an in depth examination of it. The fact all the faces of the main players are so blurred doesn't help it's case in my opinion. Great show as always!👏👏👏👏

[@johnvaccaro9592]

You made an excellent case for disputing the alleged location depicted in the photo.

[@mariemorgan7759]

That woman who is suppose to be Paulita Maxwell looks like she is in her 40s, Paulita was a young teenager in 1878. The woman who is suppose to be Sallie Chisholm also looks older. Thanks for having another look at this photo!

[@johnpearson429]

I've always thought that the building sat on John Chisums land.
In the documentary about the photo they went to the spot where the building sat and the foundation rocks were still there

[@amy.gauthier]

Thanks Michael and contributors, this is great info and analysis. 😊

[@localbod]

MAG, thanks for this presentation. Based on the information that you have found, it seems unlikely that the wooden school house was taken down after the croquet-Billy photo, so as not to appear in the survey, then rebuilt on the same site as the subsequent 1930s adobe building.
I think that it makes sense that it's not the same location.

[@navydogsadventures3500]

Hey MAG, congrats on the 3000 sub. Way to go, buddy. I have so many questions now after watching this video. I agree, though. Probably the Regulators but near Ft. Sumner. Many more questions though.

[@chrisrollin1091]

Hi Michael, fantastic research so interesting , great effort thank you

[@jackiemoon7559]

There were a few videos where a guy explained how they photoshopped it to make it LOOK like a tintype & he even went in & showed the shadowing in each edit the person made.He also showed the original pictures that was used for the faces. Unfortunately,I can no longer find the videos anymore.& The History channel originally aired the picture & backstory on a special & I remembered thinking,yeahhhh okayyyyy 🤣I trust the history channel about as much as any mainstream news outlets 🤣🤣Good day folks!

[@danoelrich2499]

Can original, physical photos be photoshopped? I would think that if the original was altered, that would be quite apparent to the experts who examined it b

[@karenfinneganart2480]

Great analysis Mags, I can't help notice the similarity of location of the croquet photo and the photo of Randy is holding, although the hill is higher in the background of Randy that could be the angle.....what does this prove besides nothing? that possibly Randy is standing in front of a building built in a similar location I guess, just an observation.🤠

[@luke8210]

Definitely not the same building. Croquet photo roof definitely has a steeper pitch. Unless, they changed rafters when they changed from shake to metal. Also, that's assuming they re-sided with Adobe. .
They could have possibly repurposed the croquet building in 1935 if it were falling apart.....

[@danoelrich2499]

I’m seeing a scenario where lightening burned the top of the structure only, necessitating the kind of work you speak of.

[@leighstephenson6164]

Thanks Michael, very interesting. This picture has been a thorn in my side since I saw it. I've spent hours upon hours looking at this through a magnifying glass, I have more questions about it than I've had cups of tea. First I agree with you, in my opinion, I don't think it's where Randy says it is. The building also looks like it's being held up with wire coming from a tree, and is that a moon that someone has painted amongst those branches on some kind of backdrop, the shadows are falling to the right, but there's a shadow of branches on the roof, if you look through the right window there seems to be very little depth through to the other side. It looks like it's been tampered with. Having said that, I think the people in the picture could well be who we think they are, true, faces are hard to make out, but the figure of the Kid resembles him, even with the same hat on from the authenticated pic, we can all make out its Bowdrie on the horse, there is a ringer for Sally in there too, and Tom., the key for me is there are too many similar in the same picture. By the way we don't know who is behind the camera do we, could those children belong to who is behind the shot. The child with hair missing, I think he has very blonde hair, I detect a fringe halfway down his forehead, I am pretty sure it's a he, all the girls have dresses on. In a nutshell I think it's a different place, picture may have been touched up, but I do think it could be the kid and some of the regulators. Just my opinion guys.

[@rfreeman5012]

Exactly with the shadows. You are seeing issues like I am where I see the photoshop combination of different images. A very detailed photoshop, but photoshop indeed.

[@rodneywilliamson6048]

I personally think the picture should be turned around. Just like Billy’s original photo. The woman should be mounting the horse 🐎 on the left side. Just my opinion.

[@danoelrich2499]

Thanks for sharing your observations. You’ve stoked me to take a closer look now.

[@Boomhower89]

Could the shadows being different be the lighting the camera up uses? With the fires they have in that area could explain the missing trees and possibly the later pic was located to the left of where the original was.

[@Boomhower89]

@@rodneywilliamson6048always mount a horse on their left side

[@kitkat8265]

Hiya MAG I am eager to start reading Back to Billy and am wondering if you will be releasing them on Kindle as has been done with Empty Graves which is in my Kindle Library at this very moment.
Thanks for a wonderful channel and keep up the excellent work!
Regarding the Croquet photo: I think the one they claim is Tom O'Folliard must have had a really hot bath one day and shrunk in the wash as they say, considering Frank Coe described him as being over six foot tall! He is only slightly closer to the camera than Billy and they are both quite close to one another. So, if that be the young fellow Tom, then Billy must have been much taller than 5'7"!
I'm no naysayer so I will give this photo the benefit of the doubt with Tom for it could be Tom, Tom Pickett.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Howdy! At this time, no plans for Kindle on the BTB series...I'm sorry! It's cost prohibitive to convert them and it takes selling a lot of books to make that up. I hope you'll consider read the paperbacks. Thanks!

[@kitkat8265]

@@MankindMediaLLC Howdy! MAG! Thanks for letting me know. I at least know now I should, and will, go ahead with the paperbacks. Without having to kick my own butt a short time after if they were to appear as Kindle versions. LOL I thought it might be cost prohibitive. Best wishes KitKat

[@kitkat8265]

We're talkinn' "El Chavato" and "MAG" here, consideration don't play apart Amigo!
Back to Billy part 1 is now locked and loaded into my trusty 8th gen model, 6" calibre Kindle.
Regulators! Mount up! It's time to ride the Guidicissi Trail fellas!

[@kitkat8265]

I am such a dumbass! They are paperbacks! Still Empty Graves is a Kindle, I guess just couldn't curb my enthusiasm and why should anyways, LOL! Still They are on the Amazon stage arriving at Casa del KitKat on the morrow.

[@danoelrich2499]

Are we SURE of anyone’s height, or of anything’s height in the photo, by which to judge scale?

[@sharonmuzik]

I agree with your opinion about the location.

[@mr31337]

The trail/dirt-road at the front of the photo looks as if it has tire tread patterns in it if you look closely.

[@chipmusick682]

Good Eyes!

[@chipmusick682]

I swear it looks like a small patch of tire tracks just before the road ends on the upper side of the road,

[@jims9249]

I agree that the location has to be elsewhere. Great examination again.

[@willsgotrythm42]

I'm wondering if maybe it was in White Oaks or I think it's Tularosa that's close to Lincoln but closer to Roswell I think. Both of those towns are in small valleys like that appears to me to be in. Those trees may no necessarily be dead and gone either. If they still existed I would think it would be a little easier to locate that site....

[@kennethlevan9370]

Love your channel. Regarding Randy and Linda's photo, I am pretty sure, that is a stucco on wood frame building, not adobe.
I have some background in both construction methods, and as a third generation New Mexican, i have lived in both types of homes through the years. Can Randy provide GPS coordinates. If so I'll go check it out. On the topic of John Miller, In two weeks, I intend to take a drive over to Miller Canyon and see if there is public access to the site of the old Miller homesite. Cheers!

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Well....then we'd have to believe that building was knocked down 2 times and rebuilt. It's clear that the school built in the 30s was an adobe...and was still such in the 40s. I'm not debating whether it is frame and stucco....but if it is, that would be a strike against it being the correct place. It's on private land near the old Tunstall Ranch....I'd rather not post coordinates but it can be found by searching for the Flying H School....thanks!

[@kennethlevan9370]

@@MankindMediaLLC Yes, the school built in the 30's is a much larger adobe structure of different dimensions with a different pitch on the roof, built on a different lot in relation to the ridge in the background. I believe Randy and Linda may have found the original wood frame structure stucco'ed over. Same size. Same roof pitch. Same ridgeline. Quien sabe?

[@MankindMediaLLC]

@@kennethlevan9370 So, it still leaves the mystery of why that 1878 house was not on the 1883 survey? Also, the documentary claims it's the same building site, just with a new building on it. That building is well known as the Flying H School house....so I'm not sure what we could be missing?

[@danoelrich2499]

I’m sorry, but I didn’t catch when the survey happened. If before September, that could explain things. Another possibility is that the surveyor was coerced into not documenting their hideout. That’s why it’s a hideout-to have a safe place to gather.

[@lobogary6990]

Sure doesn't look like the typical type of vegetation found around south central NM. not many places with that many deciduous trees mainly Pinion, or Ponderosa Pine. a few oak now and then but never that tall. Just doesn't look like NM. I may be wrong just a thought,

[@danoelrich2499]

I thought today’s Ranchers mentioned, in the special, that certain trees were in fact, once in the areas under question. Can’t recall the variety though. Please reply with the answer if you review the special. Thanks.

[@rodneywilliamson6048]

Isn’t the photo turned backwards because the lady should be mounting the horse on the left side?

[@aliassombrerojack3438]

My cousin lives in the current jingle bob ranch house where you think Sally would be ,and that definitely not the topography of that property either.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

She lives in the current house on the site of the ranch? I’d love to try an experiment there.

[@aliassombrerojack3438]

@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi yes her husband's uncle owns the property, they have lived there since before 2004 , I went there than . I was in Roswell 2 years ago and failed to make it to her place . Her parents live in Roswell . But that trip I was going to stinking springs witch mr Grissom let me out there. Her husband is a little odd about Kid stuff , but I will reach out to her this week and feel her out. Be in touch

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Awesome. Thank you!

[@aliassombrerojack3438]

@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi unfortunately she said no , her husband, and his uncle who owns property wouldn't allow it. If I head out to New Mexico this spring or summer I will work on it . Best I can do 🤞🏼

[@dinkthispickleball]

@@aliassombrerojack3438 Hey....I appreciate you trying. What I want to do is not intrusive at all...and wouldn't involve going inside the house. Just a photograph project is all.

[@TheSpaghetti64]

They are like night and day. Nothing matches.

[@winkie51]

could have been burned to the ground, maybe lightening strike soon after it was built? New adobe built on same foundation site?
building in croquet photo looks brand new, fancy windows and everything! School was in session when photo was taken? IDK

[@MankindMediaLLC]

I guess anything is possible....but that seems kind of a stretch. Why after 54 years would you build on a broken down old foundation?

[@danoelrich2499]

Burning does make sense, especially if the Dolan faction was using scorched earth scare tactics. However, one might think there’d be some evidence of charred wood around?

[@danoelrich2499]

@@MankindMediaLLC
Perhaps the foundation was not in as bad of shape as might be imagined?

[@sylviatrejo9886]

On the documentary weren't they looking at the comparison of the mountain range behind the cabin?

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Yes. They did compare them.

[@danoelrich2499]

I thought I remembered them holding up the photo in front of the landscape, and taking it down to reveal the similarities. I do recall having my breath taken away at that moment, so I’m imagining that I must have been rather convinced at that time.

[@feltersnatch]

We had Parties in high school and we used to camp out in that house. It is private property no access.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Do you think it’s the same as in the tintype?

[@bethbartlett5692]

??? Where do they say are when the couple has photi made in front if the House???

[@Tom_Van_Zandt]

Wow...I never realized there was more to this picture...apparently all I've ever seen was a close-up of the guy pointing and "BTK".

[@johnstanley9719]

I'd question the time of your as well. Their lawn is definitely more well manicured than mine 🤣🤣🤣

[@bethbartlett5692]

It is in Las Vegas, New Mexico ...

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Where exactly? This photo is supposed to be on the Tunstall ranch.

[@danoelrich2499]

A nice basic examination. But really, the point about there being a problem with wood construction? Just look at all the trees around! These were tough Cowhands, who probably were skilled at constructing all manner of structures.
Now, as to the many other problem issues-they are certainly fair to point out. I think it’s valid to think that they point to a different conclusion. So I would never criticize one’s opinion in that regard. But I also think there could be rational explanations for those difficulties. For instance, heavier clothes could be dawned on a cooler, end of Summer day, especially when windy, in the high desert. And it’s clear that evening was approaching, and perhaps there were plans to sit around a campfire, once the Sun went down. So the clothing could be rather more anticipatory in nature.
But one big question-During what dates were the Surveyors operating at that specific part of the Ranch? If before early September, that could account for why the building isn’t included. That building could have been erected quickly, as the Amish have made famous doing, for example. It does look rather brand new.
I also mention that perhaps Surveyors were coerced into 39:23 keeping their secret meeting place a secret!

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Wood was far more valuable as a heating source than to build houses. Adobe was free and available wherever there was dirt which is why wood buildings were so rare. The survey was in 1883, 5 years after this picture was supposedly taken. The owner of the photo claims that the house was there from 1878 on, and only modified.

[@danoelrich2499]

Thanks for that information. I guess I would say that, being so far south, not much heating would be needed, and again, there is an AWFUL LOT of trees/wood available, just within the view of the camera.
I would ask if it is known whether other buildings on the ranch were made of wood? Might indicate a preference. (Or maybe someone in the employ was a particularly good carpenter?) And I guess it’s the phrasing you used that might be more of a problem for me-that you said why should you “have to truck in wood”. No transport really needed. It’s all there at hand.
Re: survey date
I would want to corroborate the photo owners statement about the house being there “from 1878 on”.
I’d like to know what he bases that statement on, given there were no surveys from 1878-83. Given that the Dolan conflict was 1878, it would be easily imagined that he could have inflicted a “scorched earth” policy re: Tunstalls property, and burned the building down as a scare tactic. (Although this is not in evidence)
But if the owner of the photo has evidence that it supposedly existed from 1878 to 1935, when it may have been modified, then that would be contradictory to his cause. Essentially, he would be harming his own case-rather irreparably. Which doesn’t seem to make sense.
I appreciate the fine effort here though, Mark. It’s fascinating.

[@danoelrich2499]

Oops! Sorry. I called you Mark, Mike! My bad.

[@dt4346]

Dont think its the same building.
The roof pitch is not the same ,the building is not same size . Most definitely not in the same place. ITS NOT THE SAME!!!

[@danoelrich2499]

A new roof and an outer layer of Adobe could account for differences?

[@fq7879]

I think it really could be him. Just incorrect location.

[@rjwalker4153]

This is not of the kid, nor any of his friends. None in fact even look a like. And the provenance is lacking too. The only thing that is right is the time period, it is around 1880. It is a cool photo too. Not many other photos show a croquet game in the old west around 1880. Clearly worth a lot more than the $2 paid for it.

[@ermano58]

Who said its on tunstall ranch ? Randy ? He bought the pic in a flea market for 2 dollars ,,It could ve been taken anywhere in new mexico from ft sumner to lincoln theres many questions to b answered before it can b authenticated ! Hey question can you film billypalooza and sell the video for us that cant make it ??

[@MankindMediaLLC]

tough to film the thing without a real film crew. I'm not sure the expense would be justified my friend. I'm sure there will a lot of photos and video taken however....

[@stacypolk3580]

I thought the topography of the backdrop is the same as present day. Also, I thought there were remnants of the foundation of this home that sat there at one time. We have no idea how old the house is in the picture that Billy is in. Could it have burnt down? New Mexico has lightening storms all the time.

[@danoelrich2499]

Or intentionally burned by Dolans? Or even dismantled for firewood etc.

[@kenthefley2226]

It's pretty clear to me that the croquet picture was taken in Lincoln across the street from the Tunstall Store.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Huh?

[@kenthefley2226]

@@MankindMediaLLCDo a google street view along Billy The Kid Trail near the Tunstall Store. Also notice the types of trees. I can also tell you that wood houses are common in that area due to it being part of the Lincoln National Forest.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

@@kenthefley2226 have you been to Lincoln? The mountains rise thousands of feet above the valley. They are not hills like in the photo. To me anyway, nowhere in Lincoln looks like the terrain in the photo.

[@kenthefley2226]

@lAnthonyGiudicissiI have been to Lincoln. In my opinion, the terrain, the trees and the types of house match much more so than anything around Santa Rosa or Ft Sumner. I also see foothills that only rise up a few hundred feet along both sides of the highway. That could easily be behind the Tunstall Store on the property near the Rio Bonito. I see several angles where that could match. You and I both know historians are often very wrong and artifacts are egregiously misdated, for lack of a better term. I think you are looking at John Tunstall's ranch hands(Including Billy The Kid) Pre Lincoln war, before Tunstall's death, enjoying time off near or behind the store. I may be completely wrong, but I would ask that you entertain the possibility. I am going to venture out and suggest that photo was taken near the Ellis Store.

[@daveo3754]

Is there a real wanted poster of Billy out there

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Nope. There was only ever a notice in the newspaper

[@lukeoconnor2509]

Roof pitch is different

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Substantially

[@AaronBabcock-nx2un]

Would be funny if Billy the Kid and Dan Dietrich photo shopped it as an alibi while they did other things…

[@Boomhower89]

So much quicker and easier than adobe.

[@alanhope1190]

It’s not Billy.

[@TheCaliforniaHillbilly]

Wasn't the original photo found and bought at an antique shop in fresno california?? Why do these people think the picture Wasn't taken in fresno County 1880?? These people are obviously very confused about geography and why do people really think this is the real Billy the kid anyway..

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Supposedly the photo was found in a storage locker owned by a distant relative of Charlie Bowdre.

[@Icriedtoday]

What is looks like is that the building itself had been moved further from the lower hillside.

[@debgibbons6532]

Wood buildings are known to burn down

[@MankindMediaLLC]

Agreed...so how did it get rebuilt mysteriously right after the survey was done....and then get incorporated into a new building?

[@pre-codefilmclipsandmore1744]

Some of the people in the group have been identified by facial recognition. Easy to do.

[@jasonarrington7697]

That’s not the same building

[@jasonarrington7697]

Plus the pitch of the roof isn’t the same

[@dalebrown5462]

Since it's African-American History Month: Which one of the Regulators that rode with Billy the Kid Kid was African-American?

[@MankindMediaLLC]

It’s on the tip of my tongue but I can’t remember.

[@DownhillAllTheWay]

I originally saw this on a 1-minute short video, th-cam.com/video/VF5iZZnM1JI/w-d-xo.html . If you find my comments there, I thought exactly the same thing - don't know if this is Billy the Kid, but it's not the same building. The short states that it is. According to that short, the sale of the photo has already been made, for $5_million.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

That photo has never been sold.

[@DownhillAllTheWay]

@@MankindMediaLLC I have no direct knowledge of it. Do you? What I said was *_"According to that short,_* the sale of the photo has already been made". Personally, I don't care. Whether he sold it for 5 mil, 100 mil, or if it didn't sell, it won't change my life in any way.

[@MankindMediaLLC]

@@DownhillAllTheWay I do have direct knowledge of it...and know the owner pretty well.

[@DownhillAllTheWay]

@@MankindMediaLLC Thanks for the reply - so the picture wasn't sold. Just highlights how reliable TH-cam comments are!

[@rfreeman5012]

I want to believe I is really do, but it is photoshopped. I worked as an advanced user in photoshop every day for years, and it isn't easy to do this at all, but someone did. There are numerous things in the image that scream photoshop to me. There are videos on TH-cam to show you how we would do this.

[@danoelrich2499]

But one can’t photoshop an original physical photo, can they?

[@pirtrom11]

the two buildings have different pitch roofs.
they are different buildings.

[@danoelrich2499]

Maybe. Or just different roofs?

[@jasonarrington7697]

Maybe if it is the pic is the back of it

[@danoelrich2499]

An interesting theory to check!

[@daveo3754]

I mean the hat the pose I mean maybe

[@toddstimson3559]

Hi all

[@MrSteve280]

Identification of the building is irrelevant. It's a possible clue as to who could have been at a place that looks like a hundred other places all under the assumption that something that someone wrote about a group of people meeting up at a particular place and time might be accurate. The point is identifying one person. There's no body of facts or credible evidence here. Just conjectures, assumptions, opinions and theories of possibilities. And a second (or third) picture of Billy the Kid is a historical curiosity, not the Holy Grail. If that actually exists.

[@Icriedtoday]

Somehow you cannot put adobe atop of a wooden structure? Pfft