Honestly, it was far more helpful watching you struggle with sticky dough than it has been watching the elegant professionals. Thank you for being willing to show the real stuff!!! That was so helpful to know it’s normal not only to struggle with working the dough but that the dough should be that consistency at all. I thought I must be doing something wrong but actually it’s just a skill you have to learn just like bulk fermentation analysis
Every little detail that you mention as you're doing things is so immensely helpful. I've watched a bunch of videos that show how to do it, but I did not know that shaping the dough was for creating a seal for the steam to work within. Makes so much sense. Thank you so much for this series. Did my first levain last night, and I'm working on my first loaf today :)
Thank you. I have another similar video following that same method with some updates. The Sourdough Brothers : The Sourdough Apprentice, Special Edition th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth at least a million! I’d have never made it through this recipe by just trying to follow the book. You’ve added so many more extremely valuable details. For one thing, I’d have never given my leaven extra time because I’m sure I’d have missed the part in the book with the 3 tests. Mine smelled like flour first thing, and didn’t show much life from the night before. I ended up giving it an extra two hours! I’m so happy to have come across your videos. Thanks so much for sharing!
I think this series is the best primer on, how to bake bread, "You aren't in charge, the yeast is running the show, you are the coach and all you control is time and temperature".
So well done, clear, complete, and even a bit of humor here and there. Your instruction really got me on track and focused on the science of the sourdough journey, and, consequently, my greater patience and restraint (particularly as to improv) has yielded much better results.
Thank you. Here’s another updated version of that same method. With more details. The Sourdough Brothers : The Sourdough Apprentice, Special Edition th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
So I wish I could send pics. I have two loaves in the fridge to bake tomorrow. I followed this almost to the T. MY DOUGH TEMP was 82f after the 3 fold 78f in the beginning! Tom you’re awesome! I’ll let yall know what my crumb looks like tomorrow! First time doing things like this and with a Dutch oven!
Really good points about adding the baking sheet on the bottom rack, and also making sure the temperature INSIDE the Dutch oven (and leaving the lid off) matches the temp in the oven. Thanks!
GREAT tutorial! I agree with all the various positive comments.. And, the jogging, juggling, and Fur Elise moments were a much appreciated mental break
Thank you. 🙏 Director’s Commentary: Those small comic relief bits were the seeds of this epic video, 4 years later. NEW!: The Sourdough Brothers: Sourdough for Busy People th-cam.com/video/M8SiQJzFrrw/w-d-xo.html
Well-reasoned solution to burning the bottom of the loaf. We have a Wolf range and because we bake pizza fairly frequently, we have two baking steels. I had placed my 30 cm Dutch oven on the baking steel on the upper shelf and was having problems with caramelization of the bottoms of my bread just on the border of being burned. I had been thinking about the solutions (removing the baking steel or using semolina flour) when I watched your video. I removed my baking steel, placed an inverted 1/2 sheet pan below the rack on which I was baking, and the bottom of the loaf was perfect. Many thanks for that tip...
Thank YOU, Tom. I made my own starter from scratch, and that went well. Then I tried two recipes/techniques available on youtube with less than spectacular results. When I found your videos, I watched the entire "Journey" sequence and one or two others. My first Tartine loaf following your guidance was PERFECT! Today I'm using the Tartine recipe (again, with your help) but baking right after the four-hour final proof. I want to see/taste the difference in comparison to the overnight proof in the fridge. Again, thank you so much!
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Great videos! Thank you. Mine was very high up the banneton and kind of flopped down when I put it in my baker. I feel like the transferring and scoring deflated it. It's baking now, so we will see how it goes.
Your refrigerator might be warmer than you think if it inflated a lot in the fridge. Next time check the dough temperature when it comes out of the fridge. It should be below 40F/5F to keep from overproofing in the fridge. But I think you’ll be ok. It’s better to push the proofing right up to the edge of overproofing. That is where the best loaves live. Underproofing is always uninteresting.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you. I need to check the temp in my fridge too, I guess. The bread was okay, but I am trying again tomorrow. When you use the dough for pizza, do you not put it in the fridge?
Thanks Tom, I learned something from your pre-shaping and shaping steps: I don't pay enough attention to establishing top and bottom which results in my loaf not sealing properly in the bottom because I'm using too much flour on both sides. I'll pay more attention next time that the bottom should remain sticky and you first need to flip your dough before performing the shaping.
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I’ve recently published some great NEW content: How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com Please check it out!
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I believe in more recent videos you mention putting your dough in the oven right after the oven hits 500°F and dropping it to 450°F for the bake time vs letting the Dutch oven hit internal temp of 500°F. Do you find either makes a difference to oven spring in the end? Thanks so much for the fantasist videos! So appreciated!
Yes, you are one of the first people to catch this. Preheating for an hour to 500F is too hot and too long. It can impede ovenspring. Check out my video on ovenspring and baking temps for updated guidance.
I'm on my second batch, the first two loafs barely lasted 5 days,,, I followed your journey and they exceeded all my expectations,, now I'm looking forward to seeing if lightning will strike twice,,, all early indications are very positive.
@@richbourdeau2416 if you are on Facebook, you can send them to me via messenger. Or if you have an iPhone, you can “copy iCloud link” and it will make a publicly sharable link that you can post here.
These are some of the best cooking videos on youtube, not just bread videos. Thank you! I had one question. Since this recipe makes 2 loaves, can you freeze the unbaked dough at any point in the recipe? I suppose I could cook both and then freeze, but was wondering if freezing before baking ruins anything.
Thank you! Good question. The dough does not freeze well. You could try it, but few people do it successfully. You can freeze a whole loaf, then thaw out, spritz the crust with water and bake it again for about 15 minutes at 350F. It comes out like a fresh loaf. Also check our this video, for a slightly updated version of this series. th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
I recently started my sourdough journey and stumbled on your excellent videos. Love your “scientific” approach!! Would you care to comment/compare the Tartine/Robertson vs Forkish techniques/philosophies? Thanks!
Thank you. Good question. I don’t have the Forkish book, but from what I know of his method, it is an overnight bulk fermentation and room temperature final proof. Tartine is a shorter, warmer bulk fermentation (78-82F) and a cold retard final proof. The overnight bulk fermentation methods are tricky because temperature can have a huge impact over that long period of time and many people overproof those loaves, especially in the summer. Tartine, on the other hand, requires close monitoring of the dough during bulk fermentation to keep it in the desired temperature range. Otherwise the recipes are quite similar and seem to deliver similar results (from photos). Forkish also uses a bit more whole wheat and those loaves often look a little more rustic than the Tartine loaves. I’ll give the Forkish method a try sometime and will report back. What are your thoughts? Have you tried both methods?
@@thesourdoughjourney - I haven’t actually tried the Tartine method (yet!) Forkish’s book, “Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast”, was given to me as a gift to get started. As a beginner, I haven’t had trouble with his breads. BUT, as a new (and detail oriented) bread maker/student, I appreciate the detail that you offer (and what may be written in Robertson’s book.) (Forkish’s videos are few & far less detailed.) I have been glued to your videos every morning over coffee! I am learning a ton, and am now questioning to which approach I should be loyal! LOL! P.S. Could you be a “ghost writer” for Robertson?! LOL
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You lost me at the rough shaping. lol Until that point I was spot on with temperature, windowpane, rise, bubbles. But after I dumped onto the counter, i had a sticky blob. I was afraid of over flouring so I couldnt get it to a taught ball. Wasn't until the final shaping that I was able to get it round. I definitely got flour on the bottom but hopefully it will be ok. They are in the fridge for overnight and we'll see how it goes in the am. Thank you so much for these videos and for replying to my questions. Donation incoming! Happy Holidays from Pittsburgh!
@@tlpl2539my first two came out ok and I've made several since using this technique. I come back to this video each time and I finally figured out how to only flour the top and then fold the sticky sides in - it gets easier!
My oven let's me use lower heat good for baking bread, pizza etc on a stone but I can use a fan setting so surely I don't need to put a stone or tin under the Dutch oven?
So much fantastic information!! Your video's are amazing. You are so specific about everything but didn't weigh the "big loaf" nor say the size of your dutch oven. I have a 7quart and a 5 quart. I'm pretty sure yours is a tall 6 quart but I hate to buy a 3rd one and get it wrong. If I knew how much the big loaf dough ball weighed I could approximate the size needed for my 5 quart. I guess, after going through all the steps, I'm just going to have to wing it. Yikes! lol
What do I do with the dough to make the pizza? Do I put it in the fridge until I’m ready to make it or do I let it rise for a while? Could you explain how you do it?
Is it possible to make sour dough sandwich bread without resting two hours and doing fold then repeat? What happens if you mix let rise in pan and bake.
Hello. Regarding oven. U set temp to 260 degrees Celsius. On you r kitchen I have a commercial deck gas oven. With four burners. 2 top and yhe others at the bottom. Kindly quote me wt temp i must adjust on both Thx.
I do not use a deck oven so I cannot say for certain. Check out the channels “Simpel Sourdough” and “Proof Bread.” They both bake sourdough in deck ovens.
Thanks for the burned bottom prevention tip!!! Going to try it with my next bake. Before Dutch oven I used a cast iron with a water steam tray below it. Never had burned bottom. So your technique seems like a similar technique to avoid direct bottom heat. What temperature F is your fridge set to? U say thermometer was 36f, curious if your fridge is also set to that
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Thank you for the whole series, that is pure (hands-on) knowledge-gold. It helps a lot. Maybe i haven't recognized or simply just overheard it - but what mode do you put your oven on? top- and bottom heat? With kindest regards from Mannheim, Germany, Seb.
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Correction page 58 #9 - My book says to flour the towels in the bowls with 50/50 wheat and rice flour, not white and rice flours. Do I have an older version of the book or have you found that 50/50 white flour/rice flour works best?
Good question. I just checked it. Mine says same, but I think it’s a question of interpretation. It says “make a 50/50 mixture of rice flour and wheat flour.” I interpret “wheat flour” in this context to mean “not rice flour.” In the rest of the book he uses “whole wheat” to refer to that type of flour. “Wheat flour” in this context could mean either white flour or whole wheat flour. Let me see if I can find a clarification in a other source.
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So reading in Tartine Bread, I did not see where Robertson actually gives a time for bench resting before retarding the fermentation prior to baking (page 77). He says about 3-4 hours if one is baking without retarding the final proofing. What is your experience with regard to the length of a bench rest prior to placing the formed dough in the refrigerator? What do you look for to make the decision to move the dough from the bench to the refrigerator? Thanks, Ken K
Good question. I go directly from final shaping to fridge (in the absence of other guidance). This is consistent with many other recipes based on Tartine so I assume there is no bench rest after shaping prior to fridge. The Tartine process has a tendency to underproof, so I know a few people who bench rest for 1 to 2 hours before the fridge, but if you get bulk fermentation right, you shouldn’t need this additional time.
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This recipe and instructions produced good results but I wish there was a little more emphasis that, after removing the loaf from the frig prior to baking, the loaf must have at least doubled overnight. I think my frig was too cold and prevented the loaf from rising very much. Since it passed the depression test, I baked as directed. It looked great but was too chewy and dense. I learned so much from the series and will try again.
Thank you. The loaf usually will not visibly rise in the fridge (some recipes call for doubling but this one does not). The dough is still fermenting, but because of the cold temperatures in the fridge it doesn’t really show the rise. Also, the depression test is not very reliable on cold dough. Usually if the loaf is underproofed, that means that it needed more time or a higher % rise in bulk fermentation. A minimum rise of 30% is required with this recipe and the dough temperature should be at 80F/28C during bulk fermentation. This temperature is important because the dough keeps fermenting during shaping and as it goes into the fridge for the first 5 hours or so. In my newer video following this recipe, “The Sourdough Apprentice” what what I do as the loaf finished bulk fermentation in that video. It did not quite rise 30% so I let it rise on the countertop for another 30 minutes before putting it into the fridge (this is always an option if the dough still feels stiff when shaping it). And I put two loaves on two different shelves to show the difference in a few degrees of temperature in the fridge. But in both these cases, the dough still does not double. If it doubles, it usually overproofs, at least with this recipe.
No, I have not recorded that. There are many other sourdough pizza videos out there. I suggest refrigerating the dough to firm it up before using it for pizza. And use some flour when stretching it for the crust. The dough is quite sticky. I’ll make a video of this next time in bake one. It is tricky to get it to fully bake the crust. Now I prebake the crust for 5 min before adding toppings.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the reply and all the explanations, tips, and observations. I really appreciate your methodical scientific approach to making sourdough.
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After my bench rest, the "skin" on the top had some tears/cracks in it. I pushed bulk to about 7.5 hours to get 30% rise at 78* (only a 2 month starter), so maybe the cracks are a sign of a little over proofing?
@@thesourdoughjourney do you have a video or reference to point me to regarding protein % impact? And I’m talking 16%+ vs the 12/11% difference. The flour I was using for this loaf had that high of a percentage and I ended up with some blowouts. Wondering if I need to be more aggressive on the stretches and folds to develop the gluten more, or if it would primarily be my starter?
what happens if you temporarily go above 84 degrees? Take it out of the "oven light" and sit on the counter to bring temp down? Right now im at 85 degrees
Bulk fermentation took 5.5 hours (a bit longer than usual). The I prehsaped, rested for 30 min, then final shape and into the fridge. It cold retarded in the fridge for 14.5 hours. Than I baked.
The Sourdough Journey ok thanks! I’m thinking I will be finishing bulk fermentation and shaping today around 5 - that seems like a long time for the loaves to be in the fridge. Guess that means I have to get up really early to bake?
So instead of proofing overnight (cuz waking up early on a sunday is a major fail for me haha), I proofed in the fridge for 5 hours, then baked. Thanks to your videos, my loaves turned out beautifully! Looking forward to seeing future beginner methods and tips!
@@cariwalser1438 You can leave the loaves in the fridge for a long time. The sour flavor gets stronger, but otherwise no real difference between 1 day and 2 days in the fridge. In my video, "The Long, Cold Proof," I kept loaves in the fridge for 5 days with no ill effect.
Hi Tom! I have just discovered your videos, thank you!! They are great!! I have been using Robertson's book for a couple of years now and always have done the final rise right after the bulk fermentation,(that is, no cold retard) and have had pretty good success! (Mild tasting bread!) My question relates to the time lapsed from cold retard to bake.... The Tartine book states that you remove one loaf from the fridge and let it sit while the oven and dutch oven preheat to 500°F...about 20 minutes (too short a preheat for sure) Your video didn't mention anything about that time (unless i missed it!!) Did you bake immediately after removal from the refrigerator? Or was there a waiting period?? Thanks, Erik
I bake directly from the fridge. If you use a thermometer, you’ll see that the dough temperature barely moves in the 30-60 min it is out of the fridge. So if doesn’t really restart fermentation or do much of anything else. You could try it, but I’ve found no benefit.
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Those techniques are not part of the basic Tartine recipe so I didn’t cover them in this series. Add-ins are typically added after the second stretch and fold. Lamination is a good technique for incorporating add ins. I don’t demonstrate add-ins in any of my videos at this time. Lamination is an alternative folsinf technique some people use in lieu of stretch and folds (along with “coil folds”, another method). I cover these alternate folding techniques in the video series “Tartine Bread Art and Alchemy”, and “The Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb.” I also have some information on these topics here: thesourdoughjourney.com/faq-bulk-fermentation-handling/
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It is a small amount of oil in the cup then the rest of the cup is filled with water. The oil floats on top and coats the blade. I think it helps a little.
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I’ve also done that experiment. Even with the top of the Dutch oven completely off, it still takes almost 20 more minutes for the inside of the Dutch oven to reach 500 degrees after the oven thermostat reaches 500F. Then putting the cold top on the DO for baking, reduces the temperature again until the lid fully heats up.
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you can actually put your dough loaf in the dutch oven cold and put it into a cold oven set to 425-500 deg F depending on your recipe. Works every time for me and saves preheat time(1hr). Great oven spring--America's Test Kitchen: th-cam.com/video/RGO1cLw7P6c/w-d-xo.html
Thank you. I have seen that approach by not tried it. In this demo, I'm trying to follow the Tartine recipe exactly as written, for beginners, without adding additional potential variability into the outcome. But I will try that sometime in one of my other experimental videos where I do side-by-side comparisons of different methods. This would be a good one to test.
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What would be the purpose of feeding the starter with 200 grams each of 50/50 flour and water, rather than 100 grams of each since all that is needed for the leaven is 1 T? Why not start with 100 grams of each the night before rather than 200 grams? Am I missing something? Anything over one tablespoon needed for leaven will become the new starter. Seems like a waste, no?
That is what I would recommend. In this initial video I was attempting to follow the recipe exactly as written so I made 400g, but then described how that is unnecessary. I wasn’t really sure at the time of it made some difference to make that large quantity, but it does not. It is just what C Robertson does in his bakery. He recommends discarding your prior starter and using the leftover leaven as your new starter. This does continually de-acidity your starter and is not a bad practice, but many home bakers find it to be unnecessary and wasteful. But there is some merit to that approach, I just don’t follow or recommend it.
@@thesourdoughjourney Do you feed your starter daily? If you don’t discard part of your starter each time you feed it, what do you do to maintain it? Thank you again for all your tips. I am impressed at how thoroughly you have researched, not only this process, but the background info about how making bread from wild yeast developed many years ago. You should do some virtual classes on your step by step method and include access to your “cheat sheets” and other helpful documentation. You’ve donr sn awesome job.
Yes, I have a video on my starter maintenance routine. I feed it daily when I keep it on the countertop and I discard about 60-80% each day. When I have long breaks between bakes, I keep it in the fridge for a week or two at a time, then take it out and feed it about 3 times before baking with it. Thanks for the feedback on the content. I've added all of the cheat sheets and other tools on my website at thesourdoughjourney.com/tools/ All the content is free.
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I had to leave 15 min into my bench rest, I have to be away for almost an hour and 30 min due to construction traffic and an unexpected work thing.. shall see what happens I guess 😅
They ended up benching for 3ish hours, however so far it seems to be fine. Pizza one and large on are in the refrigerator and looked nice going in. The smaller one just came out of the Oven and for my first ever loaf I’m pretty impressed with it! Has an “ear”, deep color, wobbly around the sides of the loaf & a nice dome shape! It has only been resting 20 min and it’s 920pm I’m pretty tempted to just dig in at 930 haaaa hope I don’t ruin all my hard work!
I’ve recently published some great NEW content: How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com Please check it out!
Honestly, it was far more helpful watching you struggle with sticky dough than it has been watching the elegant professionals. Thank you for being willing to show the real stuff!!! That was so helpful to know it’s normal not only to struggle with working the dough but that the dough should be that consistency at all. I thought I must be doing something wrong but actually it’s just a skill you have to learn just like bulk fermentation analysis
Check out this video.
MUST SEE: When is Bulk Fermentation Done? - Episode 3 : “The Bulk-O-Matic System"
th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Every little detail that you mention as you're doing things is so immensely helpful. I've watched a bunch of videos that show how to do it, but I did not know that shaping the dough was for creating a seal for the steam to work within. Makes so much sense. Thank you so much for this series. Did my first levain last night, and I'm working on my first loaf today :)
Thank you. I have another similar video following that same method with some updates.
The Sourdough Brothers : The Sourdough Apprentice, Special Edition
th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth at least a million! I’d have never made it through this recipe by just trying to follow the book. You’ve added so many more extremely valuable details. For one thing, I’d have never given my leaven extra time because I’m sure I’d have missed the part in the book with the 3 tests. Mine smelled like flour first thing, and didn’t show much life from the night before. I ended up giving it an extra two hours! I’m so happy to have come across your videos. Thanks so much for sharing!
Thank you! Also check out my “Sourdough Apprentice” video. It is an updated version, similar to this one.
Tom. Thank you for all of your videos. I have learned so much and will watch these again and again to help me make a great loaf of bread
Thanks for the feedback.
I think this series is the best primer on, how to bake bread, "You aren't in charge, the yeast is running the show, you are the coach and all you control is time and temperature".
Thank you!
The best videos ever!!! Should be top in searching!!!
Thank you! 🙏
So well done, clear, complete, and even a bit of humor here and there. Your instruction really got me on track and focused on the science of the sourdough journey, and, consequently, my greater patience and restraint (particularly as to improv) has yielded much better results.
Thank you. Here’s another updated version of that same method. With more details. The Sourdough Brothers : The Sourdough Apprentice, Special Edition
th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
So I wish I could send pics. I have two loaves in the fridge to bake tomorrow. I followed this almost to the T. MY DOUGH TEMP was 82f after the 3 fold 78f in the beginning! Tom you’re awesome! I’ll let yall know what my crumb looks like tomorrow! First time doing things like this and with a Dutch oven!
Send them to thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com
Really good points about adding the baking sheet on the bottom rack, and also making sure the temperature INSIDE the Dutch oven (and leaving the lid off) matches the temp in the oven. Thanks!
Thank you.
GREAT tutorial! I agree with all the various positive comments.. And, the jogging, juggling, and Fur Elise moments were a much appreciated mental break
Thank you. 🙏
Director’s Commentary:
Those small comic relief bits were the seeds of this epic video, 4 years later.
NEW!: The Sourdough Brothers: Sourdough for Busy People
th-cam.com/video/M8SiQJzFrrw/w-d-xo.html
Well-reasoned solution to burning the bottom of the loaf. We have a Wolf range and because we bake pizza fairly frequently, we have two baking steels. I had placed my 30 cm Dutch oven on the baking steel on the upper shelf and was having problems with caramelization of the bottoms of my bread just on the border of being burned. I had been thinking about the solutions (removing the baking steel or using semolina flour) when I watched your video. I removed my baking steel, placed an inverted 1/2 sheet pan below the rack on which I was baking, and the bottom of the loaf was perfect. Many thanks for that tip...
Great! Thanks for watching and for the feedback.
Thanks you for such helpful videos!
Thank you!
Thanks!
Thank you!
Thank YOU, Tom. I made my own starter from scratch, and that went well. Then I tried two recipes/techniques available on youtube with less than spectacular results. When I found your videos, I watched the entire "Journey" sequence and one or two others. My first Tartine loaf following your guidance was PERFECT! Today I'm using the Tartine recipe (again, with your help) but baking right after the four-hour final proof. I want to see/taste the difference in comparison to the overnight proof in the fridge. Again, thank you so much!
Thank you for the feedback. I’m happy to hear that it worked for you!
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
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Brilliant loved this series learnt heaps thank you
Thank you for the feedback. .
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
Please check it out!
Great videos! Thank you. Mine was very high up the banneton and kind of flopped down when I put it in my baker. I feel like the transferring and scoring deflated it. It's baking now, so we will see how it goes.
Your refrigerator might be warmer than you think if it inflated a lot in the fridge. Next time check the dough temperature when it comes out of the fridge.
It should be below 40F/5F to keep from overproofing in the fridge. But I think you’ll be ok. It’s better to push the proofing right up to the edge of overproofing. That is where the best loaves live. Underproofing is always uninteresting.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you. I need to check the temp in my fridge too, I guess. The bread was okay, but I am trying again tomorrow. When you use the dough for pizza, do you not put it in the fridge?
I’ve done it both ways. Made pizza with the room temp dough, or put it on the fridge. It is easier to handle coming out of the fridge.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you. Still the 12 hour max time in the fridge, or a shorter amount of time? Todays bread was much better, thank you.
Like your videos. Do you have a video on making the pizza?
Sorry, no pizza videos yet.
Thanks Tom, I learned something from your pre-shaping and shaping steps: I don't pay enough attention to establishing top and bottom which results in my loaf not sealing properly in the bottom because I'm using too much flour on both sides. I'll pay more attention next time that the bottom should remain sticky and you first need to flip your dough before performing the shaping.
Thank you for the feedback. Good luck with your loaves!
A good tip is you really don't need any flour during the preshaping. Only use flour during the final shaping and use as little as possible.
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The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
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very detailed n interesting explanation..thanks a lot..i learnt a lot.thanks again
Thank you!
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
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Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
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What an amazing learning!!! Thank you!!!
Thank you.
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
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These videos are amazing. So helpful. I am Realizing all the mistakes I’ve been making. Thank you so much!
Thank you!
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
Please check it out!
I believe in more recent videos you mention putting your dough in the oven right after the oven hits 500°F and dropping it to 450°F for the bake time vs letting the Dutch oven hit internal temp of 500°F.
Do you find either makes a difference to oven spring in the end?
Thanks so much for the fantasist videos! So appreciated!
Yes, you are one of the first people to catch this. Preheating for an hour to 500F is too hot and too long. It can impede ovenspring. Check out my video on ovenspring and baking temps for updated guidance.
I'm on my second batch, the first two loafs barely lasted 5 days,,, I followed your journey and they exceeded all my expectations,, now I'm looking forward to seeing if lightning will strike twice,,, all early indications are very positive.
Great! Thanks for the feedback. You must be doing something right. Beginner’s luck is uncommon with sourdough.
I've been an avid bread maker and always wanted to try my hand at Sourdough,,
@@thesourdoughjourney how can I share pics of my loafs?
@@richbourdeau2416 if you are on Facebook, you can send them to me via messenger. Or if you have an iPhone, you can “copy iCloud link” and it will make a publicly sharable link that you can post here.
@@thesourdoughjourney done, sent in messanger.
These are some of the best cooking videos on youtube, not just bread videos. Thank you! I had one question. Since this recipe makes 2 loaves, can you freeze the unbaked dough at any point in the recipe? I suppose I could cook both and then freeze, but was wondering if freezing before baking ruins anything.
Thank you! Good question. The dough does not freeze well. You could try it, but few people do it successfully. You can freeze a whole loaf, then thaw out, spritz the crust with water and bake it again for about 15 minutes at 350F. It comes out like a fresh loaf.
Also check our this video, for a slightly updated version of this series. th-cam.com/video/WVebYEH63xM/w-d-xo.html
I recently started my sourdough journey and stumbled on your excellent videos. Love your “scientific” approach!! Would you care to comment/compare the Tartine/Robertson vs Forkish techniques/philosophies? Thanks!
Thank you. Good question. I don’t have the Forkish book, but from what I know of his method, it is an overnight bulk fermentation and room temperature final proof. Tartine is a shorter, warmer bulk fermentation (78-82F) and a cold retard final proof. The overnight bulk fermentation methods are tricky because temperature can have a huge impact over that long period of time and many people overproof those loaves, especially in the summer. Tartine, on the other hand, requires close monitoring of the dough during bulk fermentation to keep it in the desired temperature range. Otherwise the recipes are quite similar and seem to deliver similar results (from photos). Forkish also uses a bit more whole wheat and those loaves often look a little more rustic than the Tartine loaves. I’ll give the Forkish method a try sometime and will report back. What are your thoughts? Have you tried both methods?
@@thesourdoughjourney - I haven’t actually tried the Tartine method (yet!) Forkish’s book, “Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast”, was given to me as a gift to get started. As a beginner, I haven’t had trouble with his breads. BUT, as a new (and detail oriented) bread maker/student, I appreciate the detail that you offer (and what may be written in Robertson’s book.) (Forkish’s videos are few & far less detailed.) I have been glued to your videos every morning over coffee! I am learning a ton, and am now questioning to which approach I should be loyal! LOL! P.S. Could you be a “ghost writer” for Robertson?! LOL
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How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
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I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
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You lost me at the rough shaping. lol Until that point I was spot on with temperature, windowpane, rise, bubbles. But after I dumped onto the counter, i had a sticky blob. I was afraid of over flouring so I couldnt get it to a taught ball. Wasn't until the final shaping that I was able to get it round. I definitely got flour on the bottom but hopefully it will be ok. They are in the fridge for overnight and we'll see how it goes in the am. Thank you so much for these videos and for replying to my questions. Donation incoming! Happy Holidays from Pittsburgh!
Thanks! What kind of flour did you use?
Same! 😂 How did it turn out? I’m baking mine this morning!
@@tlpl2539my first two came out ok and I've made several since using this technique. I come back to this video each time and I finally figured out how to only flour the top and then fold the sticky sides in - it gets easier!
My oven let's me use lower heat good for baking bread, pizza etc on a stone but I can use a fan setting so surely I don't need to put a stone or tin under the Dutch oven?
Only put something under the Dutch oven if the bottoms of loaves are burning.
So much fantastic information!! Your video's are amazing. You are so specific about everything but didn't weigh the "big loaf" nor say the size of your dutch oven. I have a 7quart and a 5 quart. I'm pretty sure yours is a tall 6 quart but I hate to buy a 3rd one and get it wrong. If I knew how much the big loaf dough ball weighed I could approximate the size needed for my 5 quart. I guess, after going through all the steps, I'm just going to have to wing it. Yikes! lol
5.5 quarts.
What do I do with the dough to make the pizza? Do I put it in the fridge until I’m ready to make it or do I let it rise for a while? Could you explain how you do it?
I have not done it many times. I put it in the refrigerator for about 6 hours, then take it out and shape it while it's cold. Then bake it.
Is it possible to make sour dough sandwich bread without resting two hours and doing fold then repeat? What happens if you mix let rise in pan and bake.
Yes, sandwich loaves are much simpler.
Hello. Regarding oven. U set temp to 260 degrees Celsius. On you r kitchen
I have a commercial deck gas oven. With four burners. 2 top and yhe others at the bottom. Kindly quote me wt temp i must adjust on both
Thx.
I do not use a deck oven so I cannot say for certain. Check out the channels “Simpel Sourdough” and “Proof Bread.” They both bake sourdough in deck ovens.
Thanks for the burned bottom prevention tip!!! Going to try it with my next bake.
Before Dutch oven I used a cast iron with a water steam tray below it. Never had burned bottom. So your technique seems like a similar technique to avoid direct bottom heat.
What temperature F is your fridge set to? U say thermometer was 36f, curious if your fridge is also set to that
The k you. That method seems to work well for many people. Good luck!
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Thank you for the whole series, that is pure (hands-on) knowledge-gold. It helps a lot. Maybe i haven't recognized or simply just overheard it - but what mode do you put your oven on? top- and bottom heat? With kindest regards from Mannheim, Germany, Seb.
Thank you! In the US, it is the "Bake" setting, which I believe is only bottom heat. I will double check.
Yes just bottom, some can switch to convection setting which is the top and bottom with a fan.
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Correction page 58 #9 - My book says to flour the towels in the bowls with 50/50 wheat and rice flour, not white and rice flours. Do I have an older version of the book or have you found that 50/50 white flour/rice flour works best?
Good question. I just checked it. Mine says same, but I think it’s a question of interpretation. It says “make a 50/50 mixture of rice flour and wheat flour.” I interpret “wheat flour” in this context to mean “not rice flour.” In the rest of the book he uses “whole wheat” to refer to that type of flour. “Wheat flour” in this context could mean either white flour or whole wheat flour. Let me see if I can find a clarification in a other source.
Great videos! Is that pan that you place in the oven to prevent burning a non-stick pan? Some of those don't tolerate real high temps.
Thank you. No, it is not nonstick. It is a standard baking sheet.
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So reading in Tartine Bread, I did not see where Robertson actually gives a time for bench resting before retarding the fermentation prior to baking (page 77). He says about 3-4 hours if one is baking without retarding the final proofing. What is your experience with regard to the length of a bench rest prior to placing the formed dough in the refrigerator? What do you look for to make the decision to move the dough from the bench to the refrigerator? Thanks, Ken K
Good question. I go directly from final shaping to fridge (in the absence of other guidance). This is consistent with many other recipes based on Tartine so I assume there is no bench rest after shaping prior to fridge. The Tartine process has a tendency to underproof, so I know a few people who bench rest for 1 to 2 hours before the fridge, but if you get bulk fermentation right, you shouldn’t need this additional time.
Excellent. Thanks, Ken K
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What kind of surface is that? Does it help with dough sticking?
It is a silicone mat. Yes, mostly it catches flour and keeps the kitchen clean, and is slightly grippy for shaping.
This recipe and instructions produced good results but I wish there was a little more emphasis that, after removing the loaf from the frig prior to baking, the loaf must have at least doubled overnight. I think my frig was too cold and prevented the loaf from rising very much. Since it passed the depression test, I baked as directed. It looked great but was too chewy and dense. I learned so much from the series and will try again.
Thank you. The loaf usually will not visibly rise in the fridge (some recipes call for doubling but this one does not). The dough is still fermenting, but because of the cold temperatures in the fridge it doesn’t really show the rise. Also, the depression test is not very reliable on cold dough. Usually if the loaf is underproofed, that means that it needed more time or a higher % rise in bulk fermentation. A minimum rise of 30% is required with this recipe and the dough temperature should be at 80F/28C during bulk fermentation. This temperature is important because the dough keeps fermenting during shaping and as it goes into the fridge for the first 5 hours or so.
In my newer video following this recipe, “The Sourdough Apprentice” what what I do as the loaf finished bulk fermentation in that video. It did not quite rise 30% so I let it rise on the countertop for another 30 minutes before putting it into the fridge (this is always an option if the dough still feels stiff when shaping it). And I put two loaves on two different shelves to show the difference in a few degrees of temperature in the fridge. But in both these cases, the dough still does not double. If it doubles, it usually overproofs, at least with this recipe.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks so much, I will definitely try again and be sure to use a thermometer :)
Is there a video showing the use of that half loaf set aside for pizza dough?
No, I have not recorded that. There are many other sourdough pizza videos out there. I suggest refrigerating the dough to firm it up before using it for pizza. And use some flour when stretching it for the crust. The dough is quite sticky. I’ll make a video of this next time in bake one. It is tricky to get it to fully bake the crust. Now I prebake the crust for 5 min before adding toppings.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the reply and all the explanations, tips, and observations. I really appreciate your methodical scientific approach to making sourdough.
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After my bench rest, the "skin" on the top had some tears/cracks in it. I pushed bulk to about 7.5 hours to get 30% rise at 78* (only a 2 month starter), so maybe the cracks are a sign of a little over proofing?
Sounds like it.
@@thesourdoughjourney thank you. So, in that case would you sacrifice rise % and end bulk earlier to counter that issue?
It usually happens when your starter is weak or acidic. Sounds like the rise “stalled out.”
@@thesourdoughjourney do you have a video or reference to point me to regarding protein % impact? And I’m talking 16%+ vs the 12/11% difference. The flour I was using for this loaf had that high of a percentage and I ended up with some blowouts. Wondering if I need to be more aggressive on the stretches and folds to develop the gluten more, or if it would primarily be my starter?
what happens if you temporarily go above 84 degrees? Take it out of the "oven light" and sit on the counter to bring temp down? Right now im at 85 degrees
Yes, just leave it on the counter until it gets back down below 80F. It happens from time to time. Should be OK.
What time did you finish final shaping? And what time did you begin baking the next day?
Bulk fermentation took 5.5 hours (a bit longer than usual). The I prehsaped, rested for 30 min, then final shape and into the fridge. It cold retarded in the fridge for 14.5 hours. Than I baked.
The Sourdough Journey ok thanks! I’m thinking I will be finishing bulk fermentation and shaping today around 5 - that seems like a long time for the loaves to be in the fridge. Guess that means I have to get up really early to bake?
So instead of proofing overnight (cuz waking up early on a sunday is a major fail for me haha), I proofed in the fridge for 5 hours, then baked. Thanks to your videos, my loaves turned out beautifully! Looking forward to seeing future beginner methods and tips!
@@cariwalser1438 You can leave the loaves in the fridge for a long time. The sour flavor gets stronger, but otherwise no real difference between 1 day and 2 days in the fridge. In my video, "The Long, Cold Proof," I kept loaves in the fridge for 5 days with no ill effect.
The Sourdough Journey good to know! I’ll watch that video as well! Thanks again!
Hi Tom!
I have just discovered your videos, thank you!!
They are great!!
I have been using Robertson's book for a couple of years now and always have done the final rise right after the bulk fermentation,(that is, no cold retard) and have had pretty good success! (Mild tasting bread!)
My question relates to the time lapsed from cold retard to bake....
The Tartine book states that you remove one loaf from the fridge and let it sit while the oven and dutch oven preheat to 500°F...about 20 minutes (too short a preheat for sure)
Your video didn't mention anything about that time (unless i missed it!!)
Did you bake immediately after removal from the refrigerator? Or was there a waiting period??
Thanks,
Erik
I bake directly from the fridge. If you use a thermometer, you’ll see that the dough temperature barely moves in the 30-60 min it is out of the fridge. So if doesn’t really restart fermentation or do much of anything else. You could try it, but I’ve found no benefit.
Thanks for your reply!!!
Where did you get those thermometers?
Refrigerator Thermometer Digital Freezer Thermometer Room Fridge Thermometer LCD Display Waterproof Freezer Thermometer with Hook for Temperature Reading (3) www.amazon.com/dp/B07X411ZG3/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_yAGsFb1WC5M2T
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The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
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You did not address laminating or add-Ins. I’m confused when that happens.
Those techniques are not part of the basic Tartine recipe so I didn’t cover them in this series.
Add-ins are typically added after the second stretch and fold. Lamination is a good technique for incorporating add ins. I don’t demonstrate add-ins in any of my videos at this time.
Lamination is an alternative folsinf technique some people use in lieu of stretch and folds (along with “coil folds”, another method).
I cover these alternate folding techniques in the video series “Tartine Bread Art and Alchemy”, and “The Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb.”
I also have some information on these topics here: thesourdoughjourney.com/faq-bulk-fermentation-handling/
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Can I just ask, what do you dip your razor blade/lame in to score your dough? Is it water or oil? Thankyou
It is a small amount of oil in the cup then the rest of the cup is filled with water. The oil floats on top and coats the blade. I think it helps a little.
@@thesourdoughjourney That's kind of you thanks👍🏼
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how bout heating the DO with the top off?
I’ve also done that experiment. Even with the top of the Dutch oven completely off, it still takes almost 20 more minutes for the inside of the Dutch oven to reach 500 degrees after the oven thermostat reaches 500F. Then putting the cold top on the DO for baking, reduces the temperature again until the lid fully heats up.
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you can actually put your dough loaf in the dutch oven cold and put it into a cold oven set to 425-500 deg F depending on your recipe. Works every time for me and saves preheat time(1hr). Great oven spring--America's Test Kitchen: th-cam.com/video/RGO1cLw7P6c/w-d-xo.html
Thank you. I have seen that approach by not tried it. In this demo, I'm trying to follow the Tartine recipe exactly as written, for beginners, without adding additional potential variability into the outcome. But I will try that sometime in one of my other experimental videos where I do side-by-side comparisons of different methods. This would be a good one to test.
Be careful with cold oven. Check this experiment: th-cam.com/video/8CyYA-p1dMA/w-d-xo.html
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What would be the purpose of feeding the starter with 200 grams each of 50/50 flour and water, rather than 100 grams of each since all that is needed for the leaven is 1 T? Why not start with 100 grams of each the night before rather than 200 grams? Am I missing something? Anything over one tablespoon needed for leaven will become the new starter. Seems like a waste, no?
That is what I would recommend. In this initial video I was attempting to follow the recipe exactly as written so I made 400g, but then described how that is unnecessary.
I wasn’t really sure at the time of it made some difference to make that large quantity, but it does not.
It is just what C Robertson does in his bakery. He recommends discarding your prior starter and using the leftover leaven as your new starter. This does continually de-acidity your starter and is not a bad practice, but many home bakers find it to be unnecessary and wasteful. But there is some merit to that approach, I just don’t follow or recommend it.
@@thesourdoughjourney Do you feed your starter daily? If you don’t discard part of your starter each time you feed it, what do you do to maintain it? Thank you again for all your tips. I am impressed at how thoroughly you have researched, not only this process, but the background info about how making bread from wild yeast developed many years ago. You should do some virtual classes on your step by step method and include access to your “cheat sheets” and other helpful documentation. You’ve donr sn awesome job.
Yes, I have a video on my starter maintenance routine. I feed it daily when I keep it on the countertop and I discard about 60-80% each day. When I have long breaks between bakes, I keep it in the fridge for a week or two at a time, then take it out and feed it about 3 times before baking with it.
Thanks for the feedback on the content. I've added all of the cheat sheets and other tools on my website at thesourdoughjourney.com/tools/ All the content is free.
Didn't you add 750g of H2O + 50g H2O with the salt = 800g of H2O total?
I believe I said the total is 750g then only added 700g at first and reserved 50g for adding with the salt. This is how it should go.
@@thesourdoughjourney You were right...mea culpa! Thanks.
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I had to leave 15 min into my bench rest, I have to be away for almost an hour and 30 min due to construction traffic and an unexpected work thing.. shall see what happens I guess 😅
It should be OK if it’s not too warm. You may need to tighten up the shaping when you return.
They ended up benching for 3ish hours, however so far it seems to be fine. Pizza one and large on are in the refrigerator and looked nice going in. The smaller one just came out of the Oven and for my first ever loaf I’m pretty impressed with it! Has an “ear”, deep color, wobbly around the sides of the loaf & a nice dome shape! It has only been resting 20 min and it’s 920pm I’m pretty tempted to just dig in at 930 haaaa hope I don’t ruin all my hard work!
I’ve recently published some great NEW content:
How to Read a Sourdough Crumb: Underproofed or Overproofed? th-cam.com/video/JzvZ6vMxHcw/w-d-xo.html
The 10 Secrets of Sourdough Success th-cam.com/video/XRqHQzd3WTM/w-d-xo.html
Experimenting with Bread Flours th-cam.com/video/dkHiXyPBr4w/w-d-xo.html
I’ve also created a NEW SOURDOUGH WEBSITE at thesourdoughjourney.com
Please check it out!