Cool video. I switched to Forster FL sizer and they seem to give really straight cases even with the expander in. I did have my die honed oversized so it’s doing a lot less neck reduction. I’m taking up neck turning now so the necks will barely get touched, just enough to get back to tension.
Wow. I am convinced. I am going to switch over to a mandrel. It makes so much sense and explains something I have wondered about for years. I reload for several different cartridges but I have a Savage 243 that has a pretty tight chamber and there have been times that it was difficult to chamber a round that had been full length sized. Never understood how that could be. Now I completely understand that if the inside of the neck is not lubed enough the expander ball is probably pulling the shoulder back out when it goes through the neck. I am switching to a mandrel so I don't have to worry about it.
I agree with your conclusion about using a mandrel. I still use a neck bushing (corresponding to measured brass thickness) for initial neck sizing (shoulder bump) and, yes, it pushes the neck wall inconsistencies to the inside. I then use a mandrel as you do to final neck size from the inside. A standard die will work as the bushing does to narrow the neck also but may un-necessarily over work the brass. I checked my final internal neck width with a gauge and find this provides the most consistent neck size / tension as per your video.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. I made this video quite a while ago now and originally it was made for one person to better explain to him what I was talking about when trying to teach him about mandrel use. I decided after that to upload it to my channel invade it could maybe be helpful to others. I think it has been now with about 10k views. My current method is like you do. I use a FL sizing die with a bushing to bump my shoulders and with the applicable sized bushing to size down my necks just enough for the mandrel, in a second step, to open the necks back up and set the final size and ensure the inside diameter is uniform and ironed out. A regular FL sizing die without the expander will indeed work, but yes, it tends to overwork the necks compared to if you use a bushing of just the right size. Obviously using a FL sizer as it was intended works the brass just the same, so if you weren’t worried about that before, and only wanted the added consistency of using a mandrel versus an expander, you’ll still see improvements and not be working your brass any more than before. In fact, with the mandrel being a smother operation, it’ll still be easier on the brass than before. For simplicity, my go-to sizing dies to use in conjunction with a mandrel setup is either a Redding Type S FL sizer (with the expander removed), and the applicable bushing, or a Forster Bump Sizing bushing die. Those size the neck and bump the shoulders, but leave the case body blown out to your chamber. It gives you the benefits of what guys are after when only neck sizer by, but the added consistency and reliability of bumping your shoulders each time. You can swap out the bushing for a size that only sizes the neck as much as necessary too. Also, I no longer use the K&M mandrel setup I show in this video. I’m using the TiN coated Sinclair mandrel with their mandrel body now.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing Thanks for your detailed response. It took 2 years for me to figure it out. I also use the Redding dies, Sinclair mandrel, and Ballistic Tools case/mouth tension gauge with good results.
I find it odd that the Lee Neck sizing die has a perfect, (for me) .002" reduction, but the FL sizing die has a tapered almost ball that is at the same diameter as the caliber? For me it's .243..so my Neck sizing mandrel is .241...but the FL sizing die ball is .243? Edit: I just FL sized a case using the Lee FL sizing die without the expander ball, then ran it into the Lee collet neck die just to expand the neck, and it worked fine. There seems to be a little bounce back, so maybe a .242 expander die might be useful.
I prefer the 21 century/sinclair mandrels after fl sizing. I used chucking reamers in a milling maching to hone my dies to size .002 under my mandrel then the mandrels are .001 under my bullet size. I went .003 under for 5.56 and use a lee factory crimp for the AR, that's pretty much the only one I do different. I also use a factory crimp for the .458 Lott.
Good explanation of how the expander ball works in a full length resizing die. 2 questions: 1) I don't understand how this screws up your case head space? since that measurement typically is after full length resizing and would include the effect of the expander stretching the shoulder back out. For example, I full length resize 3 cases with the expander ball and they all measure 0.002 inch shoulder bump compared to fire formed cases. So I seem to get consistent shoulder bump? 2) I thought the advantage of the mandrel was for neck turning and for more consistent neck tension? I love your tip to buy the Redding seating die separately! Thanks! I subscribed and liked!
I can only really answer #1 because I’ve experienced it myself. He mentions if your case isn’t properly lubed, the expander ball can pull the case forward from the neck and increase the headspace by pulling the shoulder back out. While it *is* a possibility, it’s more of an issue with improper case lubrication than anything. If you’re not having that particular issue than it’s all good.
It usually doesn’t throw the headspace off unless you really get a tight jerk on exit but that’s all a lubrication issue. The main problem with most expander balls is it throwing off the center axis or concentricity of the case. Redding came up with the floating carbide expander ball for that reason. Forster locates their ball higher up closer to the neck so there’s more support and a smoother transition when you pull the ball back through. I really like the Forster dies for bigger cases like 308, 30-06, etc as there’s more brass to expand which takes more force and increases the chances of throwing things off.
@@randallgibson3212 I've only recently considered the Redding Carbide expander, but mainly to be eliminate or reduce the need for lube in there...Have you used those & if so, do you think it's comparable or better than using the mandrels like in the video - to where you aren't pulling the case when removing the ball & not lubed enough like he described? I see Sinclair has the TiN, but then the next step up is carbide for their mandrel, presumably for the same advantages. I'm trying to figure out if using the carbide expander is sufficient - especially since I'm fairly new and spent the past 1.5 years just using the stock expander ball that comes with the dies. In other words, I'm not winning any competitions (mainly because I'm not in any).
As designed, no they are not tapered. The mandrel in the collect die is intended to only be a forming mandrel. The mandrel enters the expanded case neck of the fired case, and then the collet squeezes the neck around and forms it to the mandrel. So unless you’re using a Lee collet neck sizer for an application other than intended, it doesn’t require any gradual taper. If you were using it to final size, or neck up, yes you’d want that gradual taper.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing think you misunderstood me ; I just taper the very end of the mandrel just after the decap pin so when the case enters the die it's not hitting the mandrel end even if the case is fired formed. Sometimes when I was entering the die with the case the mouth of the neck would smack into the end of the mandrel and the case would dent. Also sometimes say 2 out of hundred cases did not get the proper neck tension and when I load the case the bullet won't hold due to lack of neck tension so I bought another Lee Collet Die and drumalled off the decap pin and again tapered the end of the mandrel so now I just have to remove the bullet which usually just falls out and all powder then resize the neck without removing the primer. Then I just reload the powder and bullet. It's nice and clean and fast. This is what you put up with with a single stage press and loading 2 - 300 cases at a time. :)
@@hawkeyeammosmithing I looked at your video again and the Lee Dies I bought were not as tapered as well as your ; maybe this is why you don't hit the mandrel with your fire formed cases. Very strange ?
With RCBS/Redding dies (not sure about Lee as I don’t use them) if your not concerned with a predetermined neck tension you can FL size all your brass without the expander in the die then screw it a down in the die so as it does the job of a mandrel sizing the neck out by pushing into the brass instead of drawing out and run the brass through the die a second time.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing It would be interesting to see if and how much. I actually ordered a mandrel die and mandrel last week so as to lesson the neck tension from what the sizing button offer in a number of chamberings.
@@rvrski1 I’ve had and used about every sizing die and type of sizing. There are definitely some dies and some methods that are better than others. In all my experimenting and experience, I concluded a good mandrel setup is the superior method, even if it’s only a negligible improvement. I currently use Sinclair’s mandrel setup with their TiN coated mandrels. The mandrel body is a one time purchase and each mandrel is $20. I just buy a quality sizing die for whatever cartridge and the applicable mandrel for that caliber if I don’t already have it, and I’m set. It’s actually cheaper altogether too. I don’t have to buy a different size bushing if the brass I’m using changes in thickness. Also, the other issue I found with bushings is that they size the brass on the outside rather than inside. So the side of the neck that gets ironed out is the outside. If there’s any inconsistency in the neck thickness, that’ll get pushed to the inside and end up producing an inconsistent tension and uniform grip on the bullet. That will result in an inconsistent release of the bullet when fired. A mandrel irons out the inside of the neck and will leave a much more uniform surface to contact the bullet. Could this be splitting hairs? Sure. Am I a guy that’s a bit OCD and likes to know everything is as good as it can get? Yes. Am I pushing a method? A little, but I’m not going to say you have to do it this way or I’m going to think less of you lol. I’m just trying to share my experience and recommendations. I also prep brass for my business and want to provide the customer with the absolute best I can. No one is sending me free tools and equipment, so I’m not biased. I’m seriously only after what has proven to work best time and time again. The industry is actively moving towards mandrels and if you can get the top competition shooters to share their methods, you’ll see more and more are going to mandrels. All the top die manufacturers are making mandrel setups now too so they can get a piece of the pie.
Sure do. This was originally made in one shot real quick just to send to someone to explain what it is and the idea. I just later decided to throw it up on TH-cam. Sorry it’s not TH-cam quality. It’s wasn’t intended to be. I have other videos in the proper orientation, including another in this subject.
I would like to add something to your decision process. But first let me say this about Lapua brass, is not perfect, I have purchased factory fresh virgin brass of several different calibers and have needed to trim the necks on nearly all of those cases. The company in Serbia on the other side which has a case head mark as PPU, in comparison I will trim only 30 percent of their brass in 338 Lapua since their brass is more uniform from the start.
What those expander balls do is warp the hell out of the neck of the case. If you use a body die for your shoulder bump and then a lee mandrel neck sizer you will eliminate many problems.
I’ve used that exact combination a lot. It works well and it definitely way better than using an expander and traditional FL sizing die setup. I still just can’t let my mind not constantly think the collets aren’t producing and absolute uniform size of the neck though, so that why I went to a mandrel setup like this. I do use different mandrels than these K&M ones now though.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing I don't think any method is perfect. Too many variables in tooling, metallurgy in the brass and on and on. I do know that expander balls induce alot of runout in the case necks. If a loader is concerned about runout in the finished round then a body die along with the lee collet die will solve alot of those issues. Even that is not 100% but I doubt any method is. With reloading there are many many rabbit holes one can go down.
@@terryhenry8243 I can tell you that I’ve texted multiple brass, multiple cartridges, etc, with running a sizing die without expander in my Forster Co-Ax, running that brass on my concentricity gauge to see there’s zero runout, then running all the brass through a Sinclair mandrel and checking them again with the concentricity gauge and they’re still at zero runout. It does work, and work well. I know it’s about as good as you can get on uniformity too.
so whats the point of the expander ball if it gives inconsistencies and have to buy a different mandrels? i got the 4 pack of lee dies and now im hearing about this lol jeez reloading is a pain in the butt. youd think theyd make it a bit easier on the new reloaders, instead its a bunch of trial and error and hope you find the right information. i do enjoy it though
Full length sizing dies with expanders get the job done in most cases. A mandrel just does an overall better job, and tends to provide more consistent results and without potential runout issues as well. It would be for those that are trying to squeeze out top consistency and precision. It’s obviously not completely necessary or else there wouldn’t be the expander setup.
So if I'm understanding you right i can take all the guts out of my Redding type s full length sizing bushing die, Bushing included. Run my fired brass up the die to resize then run it up a mandrel die for the correct neck tension? Or am i missing something? Thank you for these videos just came across your channel they're going to be very helpful as I further my knowledge into reloading
With a Type S die, you would simply remove the sizing button towards the end of the decapping stem. The bushing SHOULD already be oversizing the neck if it’s a proper sized bushing. So as long as it is, you’d just run your brass through that die with the bushing installed, but the expander button removed, in the first step. That’ll full length size the case and oversize the neck (shrinking it down smaller than final size). Then, in a second step you’d use a mandrel setup to open the necks up to final size. It’ll iron out the inside dimension of the neck and enable it to produce a very consistent and uniform amount of tension on the bullet. Hopefully that helps explain it for you lol. Sorry these videos are kind of crude. I’m really just making them in an effort to have them posted in a place easily accessible so I can share with people as needed, not so much with the intent on a full blown TH-cam channel lol. At least not yet. I may redo these eventually, more professionally lol. That said, I still have like 10 more episodes planned for this particular series. I just haven’t had time to shoot the remaining ones. I hope to get back to them soon.
Nooch...just take the resizing ball out. Keep your bushing in the die. I actually use a bushing .003ths smaller and use the neck turning mandrel to open the mouth back to a .002ths press fit.
This particular one is from K&M. My current most used mandrel setup is made by Sinclair though. I use their mandrel body and their TiN coated “turning” mandrels, which produce .002” of neck tension.
No, there are several companies making pre-made mandrels. The ones I currently use the most are the TiN costed “turning” mandrels made by Sinclair and their mandrel body. They produce .002” of tension, which is perfect for most applications. If you wanted less, their “expand” mandrels produce .001” of tension. 21st Century also makes the same type of mandrels and will also custom make them to whatever size you want. K&M is another company that makes them, although I don’t think they make any TiN coated ones. The coating just reduces friction and you can use dry lube (graphite) on the cases and don’t need to use a wax or other type of lube that needs to be removed afterwards. Makes it much nicer. Right now, Sinclair/Brownells has been out of stock on their mandrel body for some time now. So it’s really hard to make it happen without that part. 21st Century would be my other recommendation. I emailed Sinclair last week about the mandrel body and they had no estimated time on when they’d have the mandrel bodies back in stock.
So if I got this correctly. 1) annealing 2) decapping in a universal decapping die or full length sizer with a decapping pin with no expander. 3) full length size to bump shoulder back .002 4) run through a mandrel expander die That should get me good neck tension for long range shooting ?
Yes, but I decap first, then clean them so I can clean the primer pockets as well. Then I anneal, FL size without expander bumping shoulders just .002”, then set final neck tension to .002” with a mandrel setup. You’ll have very consistent neck tension and better consistency for long range shooting, yes.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you sir for the great info and fast response. I like your order much better I will do that instead. Do you know if my seating depth nodes will change between new and fire formed brass ?
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you. Are micrometer seater dies worth it ? Will I get less variance in my seating depth on average over a standard seater die ?
@@slipknnnot in my experience, yes. And the ones like the Forster Ultra or Redding Competition seaters that have the spring loaded sleeve are even better and greatly reduce runout of the bullet too.
Could you not take the gut out of a fl sizer die run your case through it then put the decap and resizer pin back in and run it down as far as possible an rerun your cases just run them up far enough for the sizer ball to go through it and wouldn't that be almost just like using a manderal
Yes, you could. It would work essentially the same doing it how you describe. However, most expanders are at the end of a long decapping pin that’s not secured in the in a way that keeps it concentric. Keeping the case necks sized without runout doing it that will be difficult, if not impossible. Also, the surface area of an expander is not very long compared to a mandrel. That’ll compound the issue with concentricity, as well as not produce as nice of an ironed out surface on the inside of the necks. I talk about this a bit more in my later video talking about sizing with a mandrel. A mandrel simply produces a much more consistent result. There’s no stretching out of the shoulders as it exits, it’s secured concentrically and reduces neck runout, and leaves a very uniform surface to contact the bullet evenly and consistently. You can get by with an expander, but your overall results will just be better using an actual mandrel setup. Hopefully this answers your question, and thanks for asking.
I think that a standard FL die with the internal expander removed + a K&M expander is not a good solution because : - the die will shrink the neck too much, - this K&M expander is made for neck turning, its diameter will give not enough neck tension If you like separate expanders, a better solution would be to use a FL neck die (full length die that uses bushings for the neck tension) for the first resizing stage instead of a standard FL die. There are good dedicated expanders with free floating mandrels that will do the job better than the K&M (Sinclair, 21st Century...) with the exact neck tension that you want. Otherwise just using the Lee Collet die that you show in this video. If you use one of these solution, the standard FL dies are still usefull sometimes for example when you have some cases with damaged necks to resize.
So, the a FL sizing die will size the brass the same, whether you have the expander installed or not. The expander is down in the body of the case as it’s squeezing down the neck. It works it the same. Then, as the expander exists, it pulls the neck and shoulders, and has a tendency to pull shoulder out a hit as it does. Some expanders are not concentric either, and they induce a fair amount of runout into the neck as it exits. You can get K&M mandrels cut any diameter you want and set your tension to exactly what you want. Yes, they make pre-made mandrels for their neck turner. I have their neck turner and I have those mandrels as well. This one I’m talking about here is not that mandrel. I also use other mandrel setups, like the TiN coated Sinclair ones. I actually prefer those. I also use a Forster bushing bump die for some rounds, so I’m only sizing down the necks .004” under caliber size, and then I use a mandrel that pushes them back open to leave .002” of tension. I anneal after every firing so work hardening is not an issue for me. So, I get what you’re saying, and I agree with done parts. This is a simple video that simply discusses the process. I have another video I talk about it, and I will eventually make more videos, to include one showing more options like different mandrels and dies you can use for this process.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing If I say it's better to use a FL Neck die (full length die that uses bushing) instead of a standard FL die without its expander, that's because the second squeezes the neck way too much. On these dies (standard FL dies) the goal is to straighten even damaged cases necks (cases that felt on the ground or hit when ejected). For what we need that's not necessary because it reduces the brass life and will give more runout (the more you resize, the more you increase the runout). The FL neck dies will give you the possibility to squeeze the neck just enought to let the expander do its job (by choosing the right bushing size). That's a method used in F-class and benchrest shooting to get top accuracy The K&M doesn't have a free floating mandrel because it is made to get perfectly straight neck for neck turning. With some other expanders the free floating parts will let the mandrel self center/align around the neck, it will provide less runout.
@@br4713 yes, I can agree with what you’re saying. This particular video was made a while back and was initially made to send to a guy just to show him what I was talking about regarding sizing with a mandrel in a two step method. I later decided to upload it to TH-cam. I no longer use K&M mandrels for sizing. I use the Sinclair TiN coated mandrels currently. And when I’m reloading higher end ammo, I use the Forster bump die with a bushing to only size the neck as much as required, just like you say. So I agree with what you’re saying. Don’t take this one video as exactly what I recommend lol. It’s just to show the basic method.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thanks for the reply I’m new to reloading and it’s called and expander mandrel so after firing the brass is now over sized and just was not sure how this would add the neck tension back to the case
@@poyo503 well, by “oversize” I mean sized more than needed (over). So if you size it first with a full length sizing die, without the expander installed, it’ll squeeze the neck down, but since there’s no expander, it won’t open the neck back up as you remove the case from the die. If you left it like that, the neck tension would be way too high. So the mandrel takes place of the expander, in a second step. This isn’t something that’s required, but it does a much better job of keeping everything really consistent. If you’re new to reloading and you’re not worried about getting top precision just yet out of your ammo, you can just use a full length sizing die with the expander and be fine. This is more of a “taking it to the next level” step, but anyone could do it too, with any level of experience.
what manufacturer is your expander mandrel die? I only find such kind of dies from sinclair. Do you recommend these dies also? And what experence do you have with the concentricity with your method?
The mandrels shown here are made by K&M. And concentricity with this method is as good or better than any other method, especially FL sizing with an expander. The Sinclair setup works well. You can get custom cut mandrels for it from 21st Century, here: www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html
This is really good info if you are concerned at all about the quality of your loaded ammo. Truth: those damned expander buttons on the typical die sets will WRECK your brass. I have checked fired brass for concentricity and had practically 0 to maybe .001 runout. Then, run them through your typical sizing die, any brand, yea, even the most expensive Redding equipment and actually INDUCE up to .007 runout. So, if you follow this man's advice you will be pleasantly surprised with the results. A Redding body die and a Lee collet neck sizer works very well to this end. GREAT INFO FOR THE FRUSTRATED RELOADER!!
Haha, yeah that was a mistake I fixed already. I just didn’t want to re-record that whole thing at the time lol. I now have a much better camera that doesn’t have this issue anyways, good video editing software, etc, etc, but just no time to make videos anymore. I plan on eventually redoing the ones I’ve made and then finishing what I originally planned. So it’ll be much better eventually lol
Also, this particular video was actually made for one person at the time. So I was talking to him in the video lol. I just later decided to post it here.
You absolutely can. Trust me, I have, and have used, about every die and combination of sizing brass. If you remove the expander from it and use it to simply bump shoulders and size diwn the necks, and then use a mandrel to set the final neck sizing, they work great. This can easily be verified/confirmed with a good concentricity gauge, which I’ve done numerous times.
In most FL sizing dies that have issues producing necks with concentricity/runout less than around .002”, it’s due to the expander. Once you start removing the case from the die, it’s no longer supported. If the expander rod is not concentric in the die, it’ll put the neck of the case out of round as it exits the case. This is exactly one reason why I remove the expander and use a mandrel to size the necks and not an expander. This is exactly how you get “perfect” concentricity with a Lee FL sizing die, or any other brand.
Really? Just because it’s not the most common method it means it’s wrong? I implore you to look hard at what the guys in the competitive shooting world are doing. Mandrels are by and large becoming the standard, for the exact reasons I mention. You keep doing your thing though, and I’ll keep doing mine. As long as you’re happy, that’s all that matters. I’m happy with mandrels and so are a lot of others that have switched to them after I’ve recommended it to them, as well as plenty of others that have turned to them on their own, like I did. I’m only posting videos about it to inform some of those “millions of reloaders” so they can at least be aware if they weren’t and make their own decision.
@@garyjohns4711 I never said the other way doesn’t work lol. The added consistency gains will only matter you f you’re shouting fir smallest groups at long range (like beyond 600 yards). Below that (where most of those millions of reloaders shoot), using a basic die with the expended, as intended by design, will work fine. I’m not disputing that at all. If you’re not trying to get the absolute most out of your ammo, I definitely agree with the K.I.S.S. mentality. Why does what I’m saying here seem to run you so wrong that you feel the need to dispute it? You must be reading too far into it and are assuming I’m saying anyone reloading needs to be using mandrels. I never said that. This video was originally made for one person that was asking about mandrels and why to use them and how. I made this video for him as an explanation to him. I then decided, “why not upload it to TH-cam too?”, so I did.
@@garyjohns4711 also, all the die makers are making mandrel setups now too, because the demand has risen considerably for them. You make what sells and is in demand, as a manufacturer. More and more are shooting longer snd longer distances and more and more are getting into competitive shooting. The demand for better petting ammo has spiked with that. There’s basically two categories of reloaders now. The ones keeping it simple and don’t shoot to the level that demands more than that, and then there’s that are always looking for the thing that gives them the edge over the competition and get deep into it and nothing is simple anymore lol. And both categories of reloaders are just fine. Nothing wrong with either.
I’ve watched dozens of videos on neck tension but they went down the rabbit hole on data. Yours just explains the process. Thank you!
So much good information in a very short time !
Thank you ! this is very timely for me ! Have a Blessed Day !
Cool video. I switched to Forster FL sizer and they seem to give really straight cases even with the expander in. I did have my die honed oversized so it’s doing a lot less neck reduction. I’m taking up neck turning now so the necks will barely get touched, just enough to get back to tension.
Wow. I am convinced. I am going to switch over to a mandrel. It makes so much sense and explains something I have wondered about for years. I reload for several different cartridges but I have a Savage 243 that has a pretty tight chamber and there have been times that it was difficult to chamber a round that had been full length sized. Never understood how that could be. Now I completely understand that if the inside of the neck is not lubed enough the expander ball is probably pulling the shoulder back out when it goes through the neck. I am switching to a mandrel so I don't have to worry about it.
How are you measuring your shoulder bump?
I agree with your conclusion about using a mandrel. I still use a neck bushing (corresponding to measured brass thickness) for initial neck sizing (shoulder bump) and, yes, it pushes the neck wall inconsistencies to the inside. I then use a mandrel as you do to final neck size from the inside. A standard die will work as the bushing does to narrow the neck also but may un-necessarily over work the brass. I checked my final internal neck width with a gauge and find this provides the most consistent neck size / tension as per your video.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. I made this video quite a while ago now and originally it was made for one person to better explain to him what I was talking about when trying to teach him about mandrel use. I decided after that to upload it to my channel invade it could maybe be helpful to others. I think it has been now with about 10k views.
My current method is like you do. I use a FL sizing die with a bushing to bump my shoulders and with the applicable sized bushing to size down my necks just enough for the mandrel, in a second step, to open the necks back up and set the final size and ensure the inside diameter is uniform and ironed out. A regular FL sizing die without the expander will indeed work, but yes, it tends to overwork the necks compared to if you use a bushing of just the right size. Obviously using a FL sizer as it was intended works the brass just the same, so if you weren’t worried about that before, and only wanted the added consistency of using a mandrel versus an expander, you’ll still see improvements and not be working your brass any more than before. In fact, with the mandrel being a smother operation, it’ll still be easier on the brass than before.
For simplicity, my go-to sizing dies to use in conjunction with a mandrel setup is either a Redding Type S FL sizer (with the expander removed), and the applicable bushing, or a Forster Bump Sizing bushing die. Those size the neck and bump the shoulders, but leave the case body blown out to your chamber. It gives you the benefits of what guys are after when only neck sizer by, but the added consistency and reliability of bumping your shoulders each time. You can swap out the bushing for a size that only sizes the neck as much as necessary too.
Also, I no longer use the K&M mandrel setup I show in this video. I’m using the TiN coated Sinclair mandrel with their mandrel body now.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing Thanks for your detailed response. It took 2 years for me to figure it out. I also use the Redding dies, Sinclair mandrel, and Ballistic Tools case/mouth tension gauge with good results.
@@ralphbuoncristiani2941 yeah, those tools are great. I really like their primer pockets go/no-go gages (swage gage) as well. I use them all the time.
I find it odd that the Lee Neck sizing die has a perfect, (for me) .002" reduction, but the FL sizing die has a tapered almost ball that is at the same diameter as the caliber? For me it's .243..so my Neck sizing mandrel is .241...but the FL sizing die ball is .243?
Edit: I just FL sized a case using the Lee FL sizing die without the expander ball, then ran it into the Lee collet neck die just to expand the neck, and it worked fine. There seems to be a little bounce back, so maybe a .242 expander die might be useful.
I prefer the 21 century/sinclair mandrels after fl sizing. I used chucking reamers in a milling maching to hone my dies to size .002 under my mandrel then the mandrels are .001 under my bullet size. I went .003 under for 5.56 and use a lee factory crimp for the AR, that's pretty much the only one I do different. I also use a factory crimp for the .458 Lott.
Thank you that makes perfect sense. I'll be ordering a mandrel die soon. Also just watched your video on finding the max OAL. Good stuff thanks again
Thanks. Here’s what’s to come:
- [ ] Brass sizing methods (I’ll cover this method again, and maybe a bit better)
- [ ] Differences in powders/selecting a powder
- [ ] Bullet selection and twist rate
- [ ] Secant vs tangent ogives
- [ ] Flat base vs boat tail vs rebated boat tail
- [ ] Bullet to bore alignment/Runout/concentricity
- [ ] Quality seating dies vs rotating cartridge
- [ ] Primers
- [ ] Load development
- [ ] Reading pressure signs
- [ ] Reducing ES/SD
- [ ] Crimping vs uniform neck tension
- [ ] Annealing
- [ ] Neck turning
- [ ] Repairing primer pockets
@@hawkeyeammosmithing Awesome I will be following
Good explanation of how the expander ball works in a full length resizing die.
2 questions:
1) I don't understand how this screws up your case head space? since that measurement typically is after full length resizing and would include the effect of the expander stretching the shoulder back out. For example, I full length resize 3 cases with the expander ball and they all measure 0.002 inch shoulder bump compared to fire formed cases. So I seem to get consistent shoulder bump?
2) I thought the advantage of the mandrel was for neck turning and for more consistent neck tension?
I love your tip to buy the Redding seating die separately!
Thanks! I subscribed and liked!
I can only really answer #1 because I’ve experienced it myself. He mentions if your case isn’t properly lubed, the expander ball can pull the case forward from the neck and increase the headspace by pulling the shoulder back out.
While it *is* a possibility, it’s more of an issue with improper case lubrication than anything.
If you’re not having that particular issue than it’s all good.
It usually doesn’t throw the headspace off unless you really get a tight jerk on exit but that’s all a lubrication issue. The main problem with most expander balls is it throwing off the center axis or concentricity of the case. Redding came up with the floating carbide expander ball for that reason. Forster locates their ball higher up closer to the neck so there’s more support and a smoother transition when you pull the ball back through. I really like the Forster dies for bigger cases like 308, 30-06, etc as there’s more brass to expand which takes more force and increases the chances of throwing things off.
@@randallgibson3212 I've only recently considered the Redding Carbide expander, but mainly to be eliminate or reduce the need for lube in there...Have you used those & if so, do you think it's comparable or better than using the mandrels like in the video - to where you aren't pulling the case when removing the ball & not lubed enough like he described? I see Sinclair has the TiN, but then the next step up is carbide for their mandrel, presumably for the same advantages. I'm trying to figure out if using the carbide expander is sufficient - especially since I'm fairly new and spent the past 1.5 years just using the stock expander ball that comes with the dies. In other words, I'm not winning any competitions (mainly because I'm not in any).
My Lee Collet die mandrel wasn't tapered at the end so I used my drumal and fixed that problem.
As designed, no they are not tapered. The mandrel in the collect die is intended to only be a forming mandrel. The mandrel enters the expanded case neck of the fired case, and then the collet squeezes the neck around and forms it to the mandrel.
So unless you’re using a Lee collet neck sizer for an application other than intended, it doesn’t require any gradual taper. If you were using it to final size, or neck up, yes you’d want that gradual taper.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing think you misunderstood me ; I just taper the very end of the mandrel just after the decap pin so when the case enters the die it's not hitting the mandrel end even if the case is fired formed. Sometimes when I was entering the die with the case the mouth of the neck would smack into the end of the mandrel and the case would dent.
Also sometimes say 2 out of hundred cases did not get the proper neck tension and when I load the case the bullet won't hold due to lack of neck tension so I bought another Lee Collet Die and drumalled off the decap pin and again tapered the end of the mandrel so now I just have to remove the bullet which usually just falls out and all powder then resize the neck without removing the primer. Then I just reload the powder and bullet. It's nice and clean and fast.
This is what you put up with with a single stage press and loading 2 - 300 cases at a time. :)
@@hawkeyeammosmithing I looked at your video again and the Lee Dies I bought were not as tapered as well as your ; maybe this is why you don't hit the mandrel with your fire formed cases. Very strange ?
With RCBS/Redding dies (not sure about Lee as I don’t use them) if your not concerned with a predetermined neck tension you can FL size all your brass without the expander in the die then screw it a down in the die so as it does the job of a mandrel sizing the neck out by pushing into the brass instead of drawing out and run the brass through the die a second time.
Yes, you can definitely do that, but you’ll typically induce more runout on the case necks that way than if you used a purpose made mandrel setup.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing It would be interesting to see if and how much.
I actually ordered a mandrel die and mandrel last week so as to lesson the neck tension from what the sizing button offer in a number of chamberings.
@@rvrski1 I’ve had and used about every sizing die and type of sizing. There are definitely some dies and some methods that are better than others. In all my experimenting and experience, I concluded a good mandrel setup is the superior method, even if it’s only a negligible improvement. I currently use Sinclair’s mandrel setup with their TiN coated mandrels. The mandrel body is a one time purchase and each mandrel is $20. I just buy a quality sizing die for whatever cartridge and the applicable mandrel for that caliber if I don’t already have it, and I’m set. It’s actually cheaper altogether too. I don’t have to buy a different size bushing if the brass I’m using changes in thickness. Also, the other issue I found with bushings is that they size the brass on the outside rather than inside. So the side of the neck that gets ironed out is the outside. If there’s any inconsistency in the neck thickness, that’ll get pushed to the inside and end up producing an inconsistent tension and uniform grip on the bullet. That will result in an inconsistent release of the bullet when fired. A mandrel irons out the inside of the neck and will leave a much more uniform surface to contact the bullet. Could this be splitting hairs? Sure. Am I a guy that’s a bit OCD and likes to know everything is as good as it can get? Yes. Am I pushing a method? A little, but I’m not going to say you have to do it this way or I’m going to think less of you lol. I’m just trying to share my experience and recommendations.
I also prep brass for my business and want to provide the customer with the absolute best I can. No one is sending me free tools and equipment, so I’m not biased. I’m seriously only after what has proven to work best time and time again. The industry is actively moving towards mandrels and if you can get the top competition shooters to share their methods, you’ll see more and more are going to mandrels. All the top die manufacturers are making mandrel setups now too so they can get a piece of the pie.
Good video and to the point and clear explanation!
I get using your phone to film... but did you know you can hold a phone sideways?
Sure do. This was originally made in one shot real quick just to send to someone to explain what it is and the idea. I just later decided to throw it up on TH-cam. Sorry it’s not TH-cam quality. It’s wasn’t intended to be. I have other videos in the proper orientation, including another in this subject.
I would like to add something to your decision process. But first let me say this about Lapua brass, is not perfect, I have purchased factory fresh virgin brass of several different calibers and have needed to trim the necks on nearly all of those cases. The company in Serbia on the other side which has a case head mark as PPU, in comparison I will trim only 30 percent of their brass in 338 Lapua since their brass is more uniform from the start.
What those expander balls do is warp the hell out of the neck of the case. If you use a body die for your shoulder bump and then a lee mandrel neck sizer you will eliminate many problems.
I’ve used that exact combination a lot. It works well and it definitely way better than using an expander and traditional FL sizing die setup. I still just can’t let my mind not constantly think the collets aren’t producing and absolute uniform size of the neck though, so that why I went to a mandrel setup like this. I do use different mandrels than these K&M ones now though.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing I don't think any method is perfect. Too many variables in tooling, metallurgy in the brass and on and on. I do know that expander balls induce alot of runout in the case necks. If a loader is concerned about runout in the finished round then a body die along with the lee collet die will solve alot of those issues. Even that is not 100% but I doubt any method is. With reloading there are many many rabbit holes one can go down.
@@terryhenry8243 I can tell you that I’ve texted multiple brass, multiple cartridges, etc, with running a sizing die without expander in my Forster Co-Ax, running that brass on my concentricity gauge to see there’s zero runout, then running all the brass through a Sinclair mandrel and checking them again with the concentricity gauge and they’re still at zero runout. It does work, and work well. I know it’s about as good as you can get on uniformity too.
You’re right about the multitude of variables and rabbit holes though with reloading.
so whats the point of the expander ball if it gives inconsistencies and have to buy a different mandrels? i got the 4 pack of lee dies and now im hearing about this lol jeez reloading is a pain in the butt. youd think theyd make it a bit easier on the new reloaders, instead its a bunch of trial and error and hope you find the right information. i do enjoy it though
Full length sizing dies with expanders get the job done in most cases. A mandrel just does an overall better job, and tends to provide more consistent results and without potential runout issues as well. It would be for those that are trying to squeeze out top consistency and precision. It’s obviously not completely necessary or else there wouldn’t be the expander setup.
So if I'm understanding you right i can take all the guts out of my Redding type s full length sizing bushing die, Bushing included. Run my fired brass up the die to resize then run it up a mandrel die for the correct neck tension? Or am i missing something? Thank you for these videos just came across your channel they're going to be very helpful as I further my knowledge into reloading
With a Type S die, you would simply remove the sizing button towards the end of the decapping stem. The bushing SHOULD already be oversizing the neck if it’s a proper sized bushing. So as long as it is, you’d just run your brass through that die with the bushing installed, but the expander button removed, in the first step. That’ll full length size the case and oversize the neck (shrinking it down smaller than final size). Then, in a second step you’d use a mandrel setup to open the necks up to final size. It’ll iron out the inside dimension of the neck and enable it to produce a very consistent and uniform amount of tension on the bullet.
Hopefully that helps explain it for you lol. Sorry these videos are kind of crude. I’m really just making them in an effort to have them posted in a place easily accessible so I can share with people as needed, not so much with the intent on a full blown TH-cam channel lol. At least not yet. I may redo these eventually, more professionally lol. That said, I still have like 10 more episodes planned for this particular series. I just haven’t had time to shoot the remaining ones. I hope to get back to them soon.
Nooch...just take the resizing ball out. Keep your bushing in the die. I actually use a bushing .003ths smaller and use the neck turning mandrel to open the mouth back to a .002ths press fit.
Where did you get that mandrel holder and mandrels? I didn't catch the maker.
This particular one is from K&M. My current most used mandrel setup is made by Sinclair though. I use their mandrel body and their TiN coated “turning” mandrels, which produce .002” of neck tension.
Awesome. Do you have to sand down the mandrel to get the tension you want? I.e it cannot be bought?
No, there are several companies making pre-made mandrels. The ones I currently use the most are the TiN costed “turning” mandrels made by Sinclair and their mandrel body. They produce .002” of tension, which is perfect for most applications. If you wanted less, their “expand” mandrels produce .001” of tension.
21st Century also makes the same type of mandrels and will also custom make them to whatever size you want. K&M is another company that makes them, although I don’t think they make any TiN coated ones. The coating just reduces friction and you can use dry lube (graphite) on the cases and don’t need to use a wax or other type of lube that needs to be removed afterwards. Makes it much nicer.
Right now, Sinclair/Brownells has been out of stock on their mandrel body for some time now. So it’s really hard to make it happen without that part. 21st Century would be my other recommendation. I emailed Sinclair last week about the mandrel body and they had no estimated time on when they’d have the mandrel bodies back in stock.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you for the info.
So if I got this correctly.
1) annealing
2) decapping in a universal decapping die or full length sizer with a decapping pin with no expander.
3) full length size to bump shoulder back .002
4) run through a mandrel expander die
That should get me good neck tension for long range shooting ?
Yes, but I decap first, then clean them so I can clean the primer pockets as well. Then I anneal, FL size without expander bumping shoulders just .002”, then set final neck tension to .002” with a mandrel setup. You’ll have very consistent neck tension and better consistency for long range shooting, yes.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you sir for the great info and fast response. I like your order much better I will do that instead. Do you know if my seating depth nodes will change between new and fire formed brass ?
@@slipknnnot I can’t say for sure. Maybe, or maybe not.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you. Are micrometer seater dies worth it ? Will I get less variance in my seating depth on average over a standard seater die ?
@@slipknnnot in my experience, yes. And the ones like the Forster Ultra or Redding Competition seaters that have the spring loaded sleeve are even better and greatly reduce runout of the bullet too.
Good show. Have you tried 21st C die and Mandrel, is it any good.!
Yes, and yes. Their mandrel body and mandrels are both interchangeable with Sinclair mandrels and mandrel body. They work great and are high quality.
Could you not take the gut out of a fl sizer die run your case through it then put the decap and resizer pin back in and run it down as far as possible an rerun your cases just run them up far enough for the sizer ball to go through it and wouldn't that be almost just like using a manderal
Yes, you could. It would work essentially the same doing it how you describe. However, most expanders are at the end of a long decapping pin that’s not secured in the in a way that keeps it concentric. Keeping the case necks sized without runout doing it that will be difficult, if not impossible. Also, the surface area of an expander is not very long compared to a mandrel. That’ll compound the issue with concentricity, as well as not produce as nice of an ironed out surface on the inside of the necks. I talk about this a bit more in my later video talking about sizing with a mandrel.
A mandrel simply produces a much more consistent result. There’s no stretching out of the shoulders as it exits, it’s secured concentrically and reduces neck runout, and leaves a very uniform surface to contact the bullet evenly and consistently.
You can get by with an expander, but your overall results will just be better using an actual mandrel setup. Hopefully this answers your question, and thanks for asking.
I think that a standard FL die with the internal expander removed + a K&M expander is not a good solution because :
- the die will shrink the neck too much,
- this K&M expander is made for neck turning, its diameter will give not enough neck tension
If you like separate expanders, a better solution would be to use a FL neck die (full length die that uses bushings for the neck tension) for the first resizing stage instead of a standard FL die. There are good dedicated expanders with free floating mandrels that will do the job better than the K&M (Sinclair, 21st Century...) with the exact neck tension that you want. Otherwise just using the Lee Collet die that you show in this video. If you use one of these solution, the standard FL dies are still usefull sometimes for example when you have some cases with damaged necks to resize.
So, the a FL sizing die will size the brass the same, whether you have the expander installed or not. The expander is down in the body of the case as it’s squeezing down the neck. It works it the same. Then, as the expander exists, it pulls the neck and shoulders, and has a tendency to pull shoulder out a hit as it does. Some expanders are not concentric either, and they induce a fair amount of runout into the neck as it exits.
You can get K&M mandrels cut any diameter you want and set your tension to exactly what you want. Yes, they make pre-made mandrels for their neck turner. I have their neck turner and I have those mandrels as well. This one I’m talking about here is not that mandrel. I also use other mandrel setups, like the TiN coated Sinclair ones. I actually prefer those.
I also use a Forster bushing bump die for some rounds, so I’m only sizing down the necks .004” under caliber size, and then I use a mandrel that pushes them back open to leave .002” of tension. I anneal after every firing so work hardening is not an issue for me.
So, I get what you’re saying, and I agree with done parts. This is a simple video that simply discusses the process. I have another video I talk about it, and I will eventually make more videos, to include one showing more options like different mandrels and dies you can use for this process.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing If I say it's better to use a FL Neck die (full length die that uses bushing) instead of a standard FL die without its expander, that's because the second squeezes the neck way too much. On these dies (standard FL dies) the goal is to straighten even damaged cases necks (cases that felt on the ground or hit when ejected). For what we need that's not necessary because it reduces the brass life and will give more runout (the more you resize, the more you increase the runout). The FL neck dies will give you the possibility to squeeze the neck just enought to let the expander do its job (by choosing the right bushing size). That's a method used in F-class and benchrest shooting to get top accuracy
The K&M doesn't have a free floating mandrel because it is made to get perfectly straight neck for neck turning. With some other expanders the free floating parts will let the mandrel self center/align around the neck, it will provide less runout.
@@br4713 yes, I can agree with what you’re saying. This particular video was made a while back and was initially made to send to a guy just to show him what I was talking about regarding sizing with a mandrel in a two step method. I later decided to upload it to TH-cam.
I no longer use K&M mandrels for sizing. I use the Sinclair TiN coated mandrels currently. And when I’m reloading higher end ammo, I use the Forster bump die with a bushing to only size the neck as much as required, just like you say. So I agree with what you’re saying. Don’t take this one video as exactly what I recommend lol. It’s just to show the basic method.
Lee sells custom mandrels
Lee makes undersized mandrels for their collet neck sizers, yes, but not mandrels disinfect for expanding necks like this.
Is this only for new brass or for fired brass as well ?
In this scenario, I’m referring to fired brass
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thanks for the reply I’m new to reloading and it’s called and expander mandrel so after firing the brass is now over sized and just was not sure how this would add the neck tension back to the case
@@poyo503 well, by “oversize” I mean sized more than needed (over). So if you size it first with a full length sizing die, without the expander installed, it’ll squeeze the neck down, but since there’s no expander, it won’t open the neck back up as you remove the case from the die. If you left it like that, the neck tension would be way too high. So the mandrel takes place of the expander, in a second step. This isn’t something that’s required, but it does a much better job of keeping everything really consistent.
If you’re new to reloading and you’re not worried about getting top precision just yet out of your ammo, you can just use a full length sizing die with the expander and be fine. This is more of a “taking it to the next level” step, but anyone could do it too, with any level of experience.
@@poyo503 I have another video (episode 5A) that explains mandrel sizing a bit more.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing thank you so much I was legit confused on how that process worked 👍🏽
Lee dies do not use an expander ball. They use an expander mandrel.
Only their collet nick sizing dies have a mandrel. Their FL sizing dies absolutely use an expander ball.
what manufacturer is your expander mandrel die? I only find such kind of dies from sinclair. Do you recommend these dies also? And what experence do you have with the concentricity with your method?
The mandrels shown here are made by K&M. And concentricity with this method is as good or better than any other method, especially FL sizing with an expander.
The Sinclair setup works well. You can get custom cut mandrels for it from 21st Century, here: www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html
This is really good info if you are concerned at all about the quality of your loaded ammo. Truth: those damned expander buttons on the typical die sets will WRECK your brass. I have checked fired brass for concentricity and had practically 0 to maybe .001 runout. Then, run them through your typical sizing die, any brand, yea, even the most expensive Redding equipment and actually INDUCE up to .007 runout. So, if you follow this man's advice you will be pleasantly surprised with the results. A Redding body die and a Lee collet neck sizer works very well to this end. GREAT INFO FOR THE FRUSTRATED RELOADER!!
Camera Quality is fine, just turn the phone to the side next time bud!
Haha, yeah that was a mistake I fixed already. I just didn’t want to re-record that whole thing at the time lol. I now have a much better camera that doesn’t have this issue anyways, good video editing software, etc, etc, but just no time to make videos anymore. I plan on eventually redoing the ones I’ve made and then finishing what I originally planned. So it’ll be much better eventually lol
Also, this particular video was actually made for one person at the time. So I was talking to him in the video lol. I just later decided to post it here.
This was super helpful in deciding which way to go on neck sizing vs. Full length and the options there in! Appreciate it!
Good video
You sound just like SOTAR. 🤔
Don’t know who/what they is, I guess.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing School of The American Rifle th-cam.com/video/tQFnCU6fq5Q/w-d-xo.html
You will NEVER ever get perfect concentricity from a Lee resizing die.
You absolutely can. Trust me, I have, and have used, about every die and combination of sizing brass. If you remove the expander from it and use it to simply bump shoulders and size diwn the necks, and then use a mandrel to set the final neck sizing, they work great. This can easily be verified/confirmed with a good concentricity gauge, which I’ve done numerous times.
Not true and define perfect
In most FL sizing dies that have issues producing necks with concentricity/runout less than around .002”, it’s due to the expander. Once you start removing the case from the die, it’s no longer supported. If the expander rod is not concentric in the die, it’ll put the neck of the case out of round as it exits the case.
This is exactly one reason why I remove the expander and use a mandrel to size the necks and not an expander. This is exactly how you get “perfect” concentricity with a Lee FL sizing die, or any other brand.
A MILLON RELOADERS DISSAGREE
Really? Just because it’s not the most common method it means it’s wrong? I implore you to look hard at what the guys in the competitive shooting world are doing. Mandrels are by and large becoming the standard, for the exact reasons I mention.
You keep doing your thing though, and I’ll keep doing mine. As long as you’re happy, that’s all that matters. I’m happy with mandrels and so are a lot of others that have switched to them after I’ve recommended it to them, as well as plenty of others that have turned to them on their own, like I did. I’m only posting videos about it to inform some of those “millions of reloaders” so they can at least be aware if they weren’t and make their own decision.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing either way works dude,,,, kiss method wins dude! die makers got it right!!!
@@garyjohns4711 I never said the other way doesn’t work lol. The added consistency gains will only matter you f you’re shouting fir smallest groups at long range (like beyond 600 yards). Below that (where most of those millions of reloaders shoot), using a basic die with the expended, as intended by design, will work fine. I’m not disputing that at all. If you’re not trying to get the absolute most out of your ammo, I definitely agree with the K.I.S.S. mentality.
Why does what I’m saying here seem to run you so wrong that you feel the need to dispute it? You must be reading too far into it and are assuming I’m saying anyone reloading needs to be using mandrels. I never said that. This video was originally made for one person that was asking about mandrels and why to use them and how. I made this video for him as an explanation to him. I then decided, “why not upload it to TH-cam too?”, so I did.
@@garyjohns4711 also, all the die makers are making mandrel setups now too, because the demand has risen considerably for them. You make what sells and is in demand, as a manufacturer. More and more are shooting longer snd longer distances and more and more are getting into competitive shooting. The demand for better petting ammo has spiked with that. There’s basically two categories of reloaders now. The ones keeping it simple and don’t shoot to the level that demands more than that, and then there’s that are always looking for the thing that gives them the edge over the competition and get deep into it and nothing is simple anymore lol. And both categories of reloaders are just fine. Nothing wrong with either.
@@hawkeyeammosmithing you bet they do,,, anything to sell to you is a good thing wether it's needed or not!