Its going into season 11, if Riot or LCS Teams wanted change they would have done something years ago. This is a dead discussion. At the highest level nothing is done to create parity among regions.
You guys should tell Steve that no player will come and say "hey I cam to steal the check", all of them gonna go about competitiveness and winning. Meanwhile pro players from other regions keep calling NA the pension house... Koreans laugh that you go to China for big money, and then to NA for the retirement pension...
Smashing the content? Bleeding a dead horse more like it. Coming into season 11 "Diagnosing & Fixing NA/LCS," same story for the last 10 years. If people took the problem seriously it would be fix by now. NA has done nothing to help itself. The players don't take it seriously, neither do the coaches, team owners, or anyone under the NA LCS banner. Riot and Tencent could resolve any issues if they wanted.
@@xneas8917 totally agree, you're right that the other owners should actually be the ones joining this discussion... hopefully they follow the example by seeing the two best teams of the region share some common interests regarding the league
Its going into season 11, if Riot or LCS Teams wanted change they would have done something years ago. This is a dead discussion. At the highest level nothing is done to create parity among regions.
Most NA teams aren't though. Most of them could be considered failed businesses who either cannot compete or are in the red. And they already get a lot of freedom. Also Loosening the import rule to my point of view inherits a problem of identity. Regions are there to represent a region and to have people identifying with you. I just think the "Throw money at it" approach is the wrong way to go.
@@Abfall_Games you have no idea how much NA orgs make, thats complete speculation. We vaguely know how much players get paid but have no idea what revenue teams bring in. Show me a source..
@@Abfall_Games Yeah but on the other hand if you get 10-20 new good imports that play soloqueue, there will be a higher skillcurve in challenger and their knowledge will trickle down on young americans and whatnot that wants to compete instead of the onetrick clown fiesta that it is right now.
@@Abfall_Games I think that it's not the best take but at the same time some of the NA teams are actually making money. C9 For example have Sneaky streaming for them and despite shroud no longer being with C9 he's still associated with the brand when people talk about them. TL has a ton of sponsors and have been around forever so they have the long time fans that are very dedicated. On top of that Steve is a great businessman and is likely with the investments that he makes he should be operating at a positive too.
So glad to see this come back! Refreshing to hear from Jack and Steve. They are as open as they can be about what they do and what they're thinking. Breath of fresh air to hear their perspective. I wish more NA GM's hopped on talk shows like Jack and Steve.
Timestamps 0:00 Intro 1:29 Is there a problem with NA as a region? 3:11 Importing to NA from other regions (What are players reasons to come to NA?) 13:48 Importing Korean players vs importing EU players 16:51 Talent development and NA talent in LCS 32:19 Trying new talent in LCS over veterans and why are LCS orgs so risk averse? 37:14 NA Server issues and training enviroment for rookie players 46:37 LCS import rules 49:44 Coaching and importing coaches from other regions 56:14 Closing remarks
Wow! I kid you not, this is THE BEST video I have ever watched in my life! Not just league of legends or on the TH-cam platform, but the best video I have ever watched period. Great insight, listening to these two juggernauts in their respective field. I am at a loss of words for how beneficial this video is for anyone looking to get into a frame of mind for business in league of legends and business in general. Excellent talk, without any doubts 10/10! Look forward to seeing these two on again, or any other owners willing to share their thoughts. Absolutely amazing
Thorin you actually got 2 of the greatest owners in NA esports history, unreal interview keep it up. Can't wait to see the next one with these two guests, I feel like there are an unlimited amount of topics that could be discussed with these two GOATs
Love the honesty of both. Still think players perform better when there ass is on the line. I loved the promotion and demotion part. I know they are financially more stable now.
The angle about the coaches was the most interesting for me... Because I just watched the TSM documentary and was shocked to see that the coach didnt even say a single word all film long and that has to be a reason for a team to make a 0-6 at worlds....
Correct, but I dont think Bjerg will make it any better. If he will coach his passive playstyle he might turn a talented roster into 5 wards. Sure people are just memeing about Talent Suppression Machine but believe me Bjerg plays a big part in that.
@@maurice6908 Bjerg isnt even the one talking, and to be fair, Doublelift speech were all so bad it's not even funny... You dont speeak technical with guys that are 0-4, you cheer them up, hurt them up in their pride, dont know but all of this. And that's why I think that Thorin's right about what he said about mangement problem, eing coaches and captains. And the worst part is that you pay them so much, that you cant even fire them, because they are just bad investement for anything else that winning LCS.... Which shouldn't even e a goal, but a formality
@@nicolasvaillant2583 True, Bjerg being co owner is a troll move. Also TSM management is totally unqualified, just look at Leena lol. Also consider that she is intimate with her employe Doublelift. And last but not least there is Reginald. The org would need a new owner before everything else.
For all the banter about NA thorin does, he returns the pain by teaching the NA Teams how to win. "The Lord Gave, and the Lord Hath Taken Away"- (Job 1:21)
As a eu boi C9 is the only na team i respect ( have their icon since s4 meteos ), because they're the only team which manages to develop macro gameplay consisently, the problem with na ( to me ) is that y'all accept to follow the gameplan of other teams, not punishing slow rythm. the top teams usually don't have any identity, they're almost like very good soloq players. the coaching is mostly atrocious (except for some like Zaboutine or C9's ), even when G2 had hjarnan they had a true craftmanship in the draft, Fnatic is the trap lord, Vitality is S P E E D 1 3 1, in china we see more ultracarry oriented team but it's because they litterally have the best players in the world, KOR suppress any mistake in the gameplan, and we know what happened when the game got faster, but then they just got faster too. what is NA's identity ? 20min lanes into 15 min of Aram. NA needs to have at least 5 more good tier coaches to get the region a new style.
So refreshing to hear mature, informed, professional perspectives instead of having to listen to LS stumble through a barely coherent rant for the millionth time.
@thorin: Duncan u really do a great job for the league scene and the E-Sport as a whole! I like ur personality too. I started watching ur Shows long time ago and its always a pleasure to argument with and against u (In my mind) . Keep going ps: sry I'm no native Speaker
Its so cool that in esports we get owners/CEOs discussing these issues frankly in public. You could never get Jerry Jones giving frank public discussion on topics such as this.
Loved this conversation! One point at the end sticks with me where they're in general agreement that the pool of coaches is too small and thus there's a need to train retired players as the only option. I don't necessarily agree. As someone who worked as a coach in the scene during the primordial era of LoL eSports and have since pivoted my life towards more traditional employment, I resent that a bit. There are VERY few people that have even had it be a realistic pursuit to make coaching eSports a career path, and it seems to me that they're looking for an impossibly thin cross-section between professional gaming experience, professional management, and perhaps psych/sociology study. Here's the thing, that's not a real person, it's a caricature of a potential person. There are like 30 of that guy in the world and they probably don't give a fuck about League of Legends. I feel like these "dream" CVs they're looking for and the expectation of stoic perfectionism from a head coach ("if they fail, the players will think it's okay to fail there") are flawed and idealistic. If you're expecting that a coach never shows that they're human, you're probably hiring robots. From what I've seen, I could never imagine a western team hiring Grabbz when G2 did, and yet he had 3 teams worth of experience beforehand. Without a coach that truly understands their team and can motivate players to perform at their highest level and strive for the cup, a team will never make history. They're filtering for the wrong parameters.
"There are VERY few people that have even had it be a realistic pursuit to make coaching eSports a career path" ... maybe that is the reason why they try to train retired players. But I agree that the combination of parameteres they want is hard to find in one person.
The issue with your opinion is that LCS has repeatedly tired hiring non-players and leaned towards traditional sports coaches. Every single time it failed, sometimes to the point of blowing up the team. So why the shift to retired players? Well let us give things some perspective. In the LCK the majority of the coaches (position, draft and head) are by former players. The same to a lesser degree for the LPL. And it rarely is just one coach, there is a head coach with a team of other coaches helping out. It is no longer the correct way to run things by having just one coach do everything. There is no "cross-section" as you say, the scene has evolved past when you tried your hand and failed at coaching.
The difference of player coaches in other league is they have developed enough maturity and leadership to move on to the next level. Look at an NBA player. They get their real level of structure on the senior team in high school and then keep progressing from the NCAA to the NBA. They have a ton of experience transitioning to the role even moving towards a more supportive role when they're declining. Most of these NBA players transitioning to coaches are in their 30s. They have had a lot of life experience. Compare that to LCS pro. Drop out from high school. Have the social awareness of some introvert. Get babied a lot and treated like a king with individuals doing everything for them. They realistically don't have the ability to coach even if they do have the game knowledge. That's the truth. Works well in KR a lot due to having huge trust and respect to their elders. NA not so much. Never forget DL ignoring cain input but said he would have taken the input seriously if he know it came from the players. It's a challenge to find some decent coach in NA.
U cant be a positional coach if you werent a top player in that rol. There some things that are learned at the highest lvl. In soccer almost all coaching staff of any first division team no matter the country were great players.
@@diegojorda2600 Who is talking about positional coaches? I'm referring to head coaches, where individual role knowledge is less vital than the macro-level metagame and managing team dynamics.
NA approaches building teams backwards. In KR/CN, players will do whatever they can to get a spot on the team. In NA, teams will do whatever they can to get players.
Definitely would love to see another video on this. He did talk about it years ago in an old video, but I wonder if anything has changed with how big esports got since then
As enjoyable as it is the hear from Jack and Steve it would be nice to see a few faces from the seven other gm's in the LCS. Both to get to know the person running those teams a bit and a peak into how they are view things.
Has TL really developed any more players than other teams in the last 4 years?? Cause as far as I can tell the only thing TL has done exceptionally well to lead them to their success is write bigger numbers on checks then other teams. Not that there is anything wrong with doing that. If your advantage is that you can write bigger numbers on checks then you should take advantage of that. But to pretend you are any better than the other teams at developing talent and giving them an opportunity is just flat out lying. Some people may try and say that they developed tactical but I think even that is kind of untrue. Tactical was one of the star ADC's in academy a year ago and there was even some conversation about the possibility of him starting over zven in the playoffs that year. Obviously TL managed to sign him when tsm fked up but I think that has very little to do with scouting and development. He was already considered one of if not the best academy AD's and most teams would have made him an offer. Getting him would have come down more to recruitment which would be more about personal relationships, the size of the number and perceived team strength (which for TL only came after they started writing bigger numbers on checks than everyone else).
@@arua152 I dont know if you read my whole post but I explained why they can't take credit for developing tactical in it. I also wouldn't say they developed shernfire as he already won 4 OPL titles and had been a 5 year pro before TL picked him up for 1 split then immediatly dropped him. Mike yeung already had 2 lcs splits under his belt but I guess you could say they tried to develop him. I don't think failed development projects mean you are good at developing talent though.
I can't agree with Jack that there should be no import limit. If every lcs player was a Korean I and i assume others probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in watching. I wanna be able to root for my country, not just Korea and Korea 2.0
I mean LCS currently has the lowest viewership of all major region and their viewership number hasn't been improving when the esport scene has been growing. Status quo of LCS ain't working esp with how the product has gotten much worse both domestically and internationally. With bjergsen retiring and DL soon to follow suit I can see LCS dropping a sig portion of their viewership down the drain.
Take it out back, tell it to close its eyes and that everything will be ok, ... And as you say the words "TSM wins worlds next year", you pull the trigger before it asks if Doublelift flashes this time. You shoot it in the back of the head.
Here's the thing about the size of NA solo queue - the teams that don't pick up new talent for years make the prospect of going pro so slim for NA players that they don't want to spend the time to play.
I think 1 thing that could make a real difference is simply having more diversity for teams across North America to play. The LCS is good for the highest level, but why not explore having a Demacia cup or even open circuit to not only have amateur teams play against the LCS, but have those same LCS teams rotate players around, especially seeing as they can feasibly afford to keep 7+ players on a roster
I've always believed that having a draft system in the LCS similar to the NBA would be great for the league. I would love to hear people's thoughts on this
@@spring1242 but if you televise the draft and a combine like they do with sports it could make a huge hype train and make more NA kids excited about trying to be drafted. It allows teams to have franchise players to build around even though the incentive is always to win so you would never see teams tanking for high draft picks.
Kinda unfortunate timing; soon after this, the PerkZ to C9 thing happened, "big" announcements for the changes to the NA amateur scene... And none of you touched on the Bo1 vs Bo3 debate - nor the changes to the NA LCS in 2021. Still a solid discussion, but could have been better.
If Teams are earning more we are going to pay more. That is great and I agree with it, but I feel part of NA's problem is it doesn't finish that statement like other professional sports teams. "If teams are earning more we are going to pay more if the player is performing". That last part is very important and frankly part of NA's biggest problem. NA Pro's have little incentive to do much more than just the bare minimum to keep their position. That isn't saying that they all do that, but when the worst case scenario is "Half a dozen teams ready to pick me up at or close to my current salary even if I'm slumping for years", then it doesn't breed success. Teams should be far more willing to bench a player and bring up new talent and far less willing to pay top dollar to players who haven't performed in years.
Did Team Liquid do ANY development? They just paid more money to get their players. TSM developed Tactical, and TL snatched him. Now they're suddenly taking credit as THE BEST org for developing talent??~!
As an European, the prospect of giving more import slots to NA is terrifying. The news that Perkz might go to NA just speaks how EU is handicapped in terms of money ecosystem. It's absurd that the region that performs worse and has worse viewing production has that much more money. I really feel like that LEC needs to do smth on the greater level, otherwise we might see NA beat EU just by having a sheer number of better players. I mean, if they get both 'best' top laner and 2nd best midlaner from EU, there's no telling that other top players from EU might follow that trend. At some point, you are gonna have straight up worse players and have Rogue/Mad Lions performance.
Yeah, to me its unbelievable how people say these 'NA' teams are actually NA while having 2+ imports. Just look at TL, they have already 4 imports. Its just insane. Thats no NA team. Maybe in spring split there are more imports than native players, maybe that is already the case. I dont know. But the change is appalling.
import rules should be thightened again. This only kills minor regions. If NA doesnt learn to produce their own talent then they shuouldnt deserve the position they are in rn either way
I know it has already started but NA's failure internationally will change import rules even further. I can see the next step being all wildcards regions will not count as imports. After that, I can see them bumping the import slots to 3.
Starlink will be the solution for NA! If Starlink works, theoretically they could just give challenger players all other the world Starlink and have them play in NA to better the solo queue experience.
This was such a good topic and yet I feel like we haven't addressed the real issue, which was salary inflation from import rules. Steve's point about how LCS players get paid more because the LCS was able to monetize better than say the LEC is not really the narrative. When you have limited supply (NA star residents) and greater demand (only the teams that are able to sign those star residents contend), is when you get the outrageous numbers in regards to compensation. Opening up import rules and targeting the next generation of unknown talent (through investing in scouting/development) is the way to go. Trying to bring CAPS to NA is both too costly and not worth the risk. Trying to bring the next CAPS for half the player salary of current NA star residents is the way to go. The best part is, there are tons of these prospects under trainee programs in the LPL/LCK/LEC, the legwork has already been done as proven quantities, so it's less of a risk to bring over Clozer from T1 from a buyout. This in turn will deflate the value of free agents such as Jensen and Power of Evil who suddenly aren't the only viable candidates, they'll still land somewhere, just not at their current salary level. Star residents getting their salary chopped in half in turn will make other "decent" residents get their salary slashed in half. The point is, only the tryhard residents will remain in NA and those that phone it in for a paycheck will quickly find themselves out of work as it should be. The primary reason why so many players are able to maintain their form in Asia is because of job security, when you know there's a 15 year old just salivating at the prospect of stealing your chair, you cannot help but be constantly training to maintain your form. In NA, as long as you hit a certain threshold, you're in the untouchable gravy zone, that no matter what, you'll end up hired by a team somewhere that "needs" to field 3 NA residents. Opening OCE is the first step, it's time for Riot to just remove import rules across all regions not just NA to normalize salaries across all major regions. The LEC/LPL/LCK fans that are worried about NA stealing their players need to realize it'll be harder for NA to attract tier 1 proven players like Rookie or Faker etc.. because NA will no longer have an incentive to give out these million dollar plus contracts. Not when they can bring a hot top 5 solo Q prodigy at 100K, who is dying to get to NA to make a name for themselves and become the next Faker, while it'd be much harder for them to standout if they remain within their region. So in the short run, no major regions would get canibalized for the sake of NA. Salary would become relatable to other major regions. Half the upper management in NA would also get fired once they get exposed for not knowing how to find or develop talent, since they no longer have the excuse of not building a contender by not having 3 star residents. More great players from other regions end up in NA and their academy team which increases the value of solo Q. It's a win win win across the board everywhere, except maybe Jack who will no longer to get people's kidneys from selling decently developed NA talent.
Hey Thorin, the microphones for flashpoint have been peaking out when casters shout! I noticed this especially when Semmler was getting excited, I hope this can be fixed.
great episode, but jack was kinda quiet in my opnion so I'd love to see some better audio management, otherwise love the content keep it up thornhin :D
I don't have concerns about Bjergsen's leadership or coaching mentality, buuuuut - I Do Hope For TSMs Sake Reginald Lifted The Thorin Embargo So He Can Watch This Video.
The biggest problem in NA is Riot. Let the market determine the teams. Even if it means 5 Chinese or 5 Koreans. I want to watch the most competitive LCS matches.
@MasterSwagKing Entertainment I understand that but they are being polite to Thorin. If you watch the video, there are times in which there are long pauses after thorin goes on his tangent leaving Steve and jack a loss for words/lost of where to start their response on.
Kings
I support C9 all the way. TSM got lucky
LEC, and LCK fans are most scared of C9 as true dark horse.
C9 Perkz?
of what
Its going into season 11, if Riot or LCS Teams wanted change they would have done something years ago. This is a dead discussion. At the highest level nothing is done to create parity among regions.
Two great leaders
Oh hello TL TH-cam! How are you doing?
And steve arhancet :^)
Two great pepegas and an old man
You guys should tell Steve that no player will come and say "hey I cam to steal the check", all of them gonna go about competitiveness and winning. Meanwhile pro players from other regions keep calling NA the pension house... Koreans laugh that you go to China for big money, and then to NA for the retirement pension...
And Jack
Thorin ,you can't keep getting away with these guests! This isn't FPL, this a content machine!
Great show
Is this a CS:GO reference? S1mple reference?
Smashing the content? Bleeding a dead horse more like it. Coming into season 11 "Diagnosing & Fixing NA/LCS," same story for the last 10 years. If people took the problem seriously it would be fix by now. NA has done nothing to help itself. The players don't take it seriously, neither do the coaches, team owners, or anyone under the NA LCS banner. Riot and Tencent could resolve any issues if they wanted.
look gang @@LAK253 is being edgy!
@@ababilashari9970 Riot is the only one edging hommie, bc you're getting fucked.
Haven’t even watched this yet but there’s no way it isn’t a BANGER. Thanks Duncan
After having watched it, will agree, absolute fucking banger
Thorin has been absolutely smashing the content game recently. Steve + Jack are by far the best owners in LCS
WhAT! wAhT! WHat! Where is our lord and savior ReGinAL?
you mean, the 1's with most money
Mad respect for Thorin, Steve and Jack for actually sitting down and discuss what can be done to improve as a region
Sadly steve and jack arent the problem, the actual owners that need to do something about it prob won't :/
@@xneas8917 totally agree, you're right that the other owners should actually be the ones joining this discussion... hopefully they follow the example by seeing the two best teams of the region share some common interests regarding the league
Its going into season 11, if Riot or LCS Teams wanted change they would have done something years ago. This is a dead discussion. At the highest level nothing is done to create parity among regions.
Bro thorins content be popping off right now. Holy man you’re actually killing it!
Popping off? How so?
Yo, these guests are insane.
This show with these 2 guests needs to be an annual show at the very least, Steve and Jack are the best!
The easiest like in quite some time, well said good Sir.
"If the NA teams are earning more, we're gonna pay more" - never looked from this perspective. Love Steve as a boss absolute respect
Most NA teams aren't though. Most of them could be considered failed businesses who either cannot compete or are in the red. And they already get a lot of freedom. Also Loosening the import rule to my point of view inherits a problem of identity. Regions are there to represent a region and to have people identifying with you. I just think the "Throw money at it" approach is the wrong way to go.
@@Abfall_Games you have no idea how much NA orgs make, thats complete speculation. We vaguely know how much players get paid but have no idea what revenue teams bring in. Show me a source..
@@chrisperry9697 it's okay he saw that on reddit
@@Abfall_Games Yeah but on the other hand if you get 10-20 new good imports that play soloqueue, there will be a higher skillcurve in challenger and their knowledge will trickle down on young americans and whatnot that wants to compete instead of the onetrick clown fiesta that it is right now.
@@Abfall_Games I think that it's not the best take but at the same time some of the NA teams are actually making money. C9 For example have Sneaky streaming for them and despite shroud no longer being with C9 he's still associated with the brand when people talk about them. TL has a ton of sponsors and have been around forever so they have the long time fans that are very dedicated. On top of that Steve is a great businessman and is likely with the investments that he makes he should be operating at a positive too.
holy cow what a gem. couldn't imagine better host or guests for this conversation. thank you so much to all three of you!
So glad to see this come back! Refreshing to hear from Jack and Steve. They are as open as they can be about what they do and what they're thinking. Breath of fresh air to hear their perspective. I wish more NA GM's hopped on talk shows like Jack and Steve.
shout out to steve and jack, thanks for doing this and sharing some of the CEO opinions regarding na with us. great video
I see guests like this, I like the video before watching. Thank you for the pre-workday content Thorin.
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
1:29 Is there a problem with NA as a region?
3:11 Importing to NA from other regions (What are players reasons to come to NA?)
13:48 Importing Korean players vs importing EU players
16:51 Talent development and NA talent in LCS
32:19 Trying new talent in LCS over veterans and why are LCS orgs so risk averse?
37:14 NA Server issues and training enviroment for rookie players
46:37 LCS import rules
49:44 Coaching and importing coaches from other regions
56:14 Closing remarks
The fact that you got these two on your channel is a testament to the dynasty of your career, I love this series and can't wait for the next video.
Thorins intro is straight 🔥🤣
Wow! I kid you not, this is THE BEST video I have ever watched in my life! Not just league of legends or on the TH-cam platform, but the best video I have ever watched period. Great insight, listening to these two juggernauts in their respective field. I am at a loss of words for how beneficial this video is for anyone looking to get into a frame of mind for business in league of legends and business in general. Excellent talk, without any doubts 10/10! Look forward to seeing these two on again, or any other owners willing to share their thoughts. Absolutely amazing
Thorin you actually got 2 of the greatest owners in NA esports history, unreal interview keep it up. Can't wait to see the next one with these two guests, I feel like there are an unlimited amount of topics that could be discussed with these two GOATs
Love the honesty of both. Still think players perform better when there ass is on the line. I loved the promotion and demotion part. I know they are financially more stable now.
This is some high quality discussion right here! Thanks a lot for this interview! Good content both thanks to you Thooorin but also Steve and Jack.
The angle about the coaches was the most interesting for me... Because I just watched the TSM documentary and was shocked to see that the coach didnt even say a single word all film long and that has to be a reason for a team to make a 0-6 at worlds....
Correct, but I dont think Bjerg will make it any better. If he will coach his passive playstyle he might turn a talented roster into 5 wards. Sure people are just memeing about Talent Suppression Machine but believe me Bjerg plays a big part in that.
@@maurice6908 Bjerg isnt even the one talking, and to be fair, Doublelift speech were all so bad it's not even funny... You dont speeak technical with guys that are 0-4, you cheer them up, hurt them up in their pride, dont know but all of this. And that's why I think that Thorin's right about what he said about mangement problem, eing coaches and captains.
And the worst part is that you pay them so much, that you cant even fire them, because they are just bad investement for anything else that winning LCS.... Which shouldn't even e a goal, but a formality
@@nicolasvaillant2583 True, Bjerg being co owner is a troll move. Also TSM management is totally unqualified, just look at Leena lol. Also consider that she is intimate with her employe Doublelift. And last but not least there is Reginald. The org would need a new owner before everything else.
For all the banter about NA thorin does, he returns the pain by teaching the NA Teams how to win. "The Lord Gave, and the Lord Hath Taken Away"- (Job 1:21)
Brilliant video! It was great to hear some input from both guys.
As a eu boi C9 is the only na team i respect ( have their icon since s4 meteos ), because they're the only team which manages to develop macro gameplay consisently, the problem with na ( to me ) is that y'all accept to follow the gameplan of other teams, not punishing slow rythm. the top teams usually don't have any identity, they're almost like very good soloq players. the coaching is mostly atrocious (except for some like Zaboutine or C9's ), even when G2 had hjarnan they had a true craftmanship in the draft, Fnatic is the trap lord, Vitality is S P E E D 1 3 1, in china we see more ultracarry oriented team but it's because they litterally have the best players in the world, KOR suppress any mistake in the gameplan, and we know what happened when the game got faster, but then they just got faster too. what is NA's identity ? 20min lanes into 15 min of Aram. NA needs to have at least 5 more good tier coaches to get the region a new style.
So refreshing to hear mature, informed, professional perspectives instead of having to listen to LS stumble through a barely coherent rant for the millionth time.
Really enjoyed this interview, would love to see more with coaches or owners
Omg he got both of em xD
yeah but wukong afk
@@eyeslikeoceans licorice?
@@NoradNoxtus Andy lol
At the same time too
I'm doing a lab report right now and the intro helped me a lot, thanks thooorin!
@thorin: Duncan u really do a great job for the league scene and the E-Sport as a whole! I like ur personality too. I started watching ur Shows long time ago and its always a pleasure to argument with and against u (In my mind) . Keep going ps: sry I'm no native Speaker
Its so cool that in esports we get owners/CEOs discussing these issues frankly in public. You could never get Jerry Jones giving frank public discussion on topics such as this.
Thorn did really well in this interview, ask a lot of good questions/kept the conversation going.. nicely done
Steve is such a gamer at heart gets doing a relatively higher profile interview from his bedroom. At least Jack angled the camera to hide his bed 🤣
Loved this conversation!
One point at the end sticks with me where they're in general agreement that the pool of coaches is too small and thus there's a need to train retired players as the only option. I don't necessarily agree.
As someone who worked as a coach in the scene during the primordial era of LoL eSports and have since pivoted my life towards more traditional employment, I resent that a bit. There are VERY few people that have even had it be a realistic pursuit to make coaching eSports a career path, and it seems to me that they're looking for an impossibly thin cross-section between professional gaming experience, professional management, and perhaps psych/sociology study.
Here's the thing, that's not a real person, it's a caricature of a potential person. There are like 30 of that guy in the world and they probably don't give a fuck about League of Legends. I feel like these "dream" CVs they're looking for and the expectation of stoic perfectionism from a head coach ("if they fail, the players will think it's okay to fail there") are flawed and idealistic. If you're expecting that a coach never shows that they're human, you're probably hiring robots.
From what I've seen, I could never imagine a western team hiring Grabbz when G2 did, and yet he had 3 teams worth of experience beforehand. Without a coach that truly understands their team and can motivate players to perform at their highest level and strive for the cup, a team will never make history. They're filtering for the wrong parameters.
"There are VERY few people that have even had it be a realistic pursuit to make coaching eSports a career path" ... maybe that is the reason why they try to train retired players. But I agree that the combination of parameteres they want is hard to find in one person.
The issue with your opinion is that LCS has repeatedly tired hiring non-players and leaned towards traditional sports coaches. Every single time it failed, sometimes to the point of blowing up the team. So why the shift to retired players? Well let us give things some perspective. In the LCK the majority of the coaches (position, draft and head) are by former players. The same to a lesser degree for the LPL. And it rarely is just one coach, there is a head coach with a team of other coaches helping out. It is no longer the correct way to run things by having just one coach do everything. There is no "cross-section" as you say, the scene has evolved past when you tried your hand and failed at coaching.
The difference of player coaches in other league is they have developed enough maturity and leadership to move on to the next level. Look at an NBA player. They get their real level of structure on the senior team in high school and then keep progressing from the NCAA to the NBA. They have a ton of experience transitioning to the role even moving towards a more supportive role when they're declining. Most of these NBA players transitioning to coaches are in their 30s. They have had a lot of life experience.
Compare that to LCS pro. Drop out from high school. Have the social awareness of some introvert. Get babied a lot and treated like a king with individuals doing everything for them. They realistically don't have the ability to coach even if they do have the game knowledge. That's the truth. Works well in KR a lot due to having huge trust and respect to their elders. NA not so much. Never forget DL ignoring cain input but said he would have taken the input seriously if he know it came from the players. It's a challenge to find some decent coach in NA.
U cant be a positional coach if you werent a top player in that rol. There some things that are learned at the highest lvl. In soccer almost all coaching staff of any first division team no matter the country were great players.
@@diegojorda2600 Who is talking about positional coaches? I'm referring to head coaches, where individual role knowledge is less vital than the macro-level metagame and managing team dynamics.
NA approaches building teams backwards.
In KR/CN, players will do whatever they can to get a spot on the team. In NA, teams will do whatever they can to get players.
Thorin casually inviting both owners of the two biggest NA teams
Hey Thorin! Is there a chance that you will talk about drug use in esports?
I agree and it would be nice to see the difference in regions and what drugs are allowed.
Is that acually a thing? I genuinly dont know.
@@MrMaki97 yes adderall gives you a massive focus boost, lots of stories of players using it
@@humanoid8344 interesting thank you!
Definitely would love to see another video on this.
He did talk about it years ago in an old video, but I wonder if anything has changed with how big esports got since then
As enjoyable as it is the hear from Jack and Steve it would be nice to see a few faces from the seven other gm's in the LCS. Both to get to know the person running those teams a bit and a peak into how they are view things.
Has TL really developed any more players than other teams in the last 4 years?? Cause as far as I can tell the only thing TL has done exceptionally well to lead them to their success is write bigger numbers on checks then other teams. Not that there is anything wrong with doing that. If your advantage is that you can write bigger numbers on checks then you should take advantage of that. But to pretend you are any better than the other teams at developing talent and giving them an opportunity is just flat out lying.
Some people may try and say that they developed tactical but I think even that is kind of untrue. Tactical was one of the star ADC's in academy a year ago and there was even some conversation about the possibility of him starting over zven in the playoffs that year. Obviously TL managed to sign him when tsm fked up but I think that has very little to do with scouting and development. He was already considered one of if not the best academy AD's and most teams would have made him an offer. Getting him would have come down more to recruitment which would be more about personal relationships, the size of the number and perceived team strength (which for TL only came after they started writing bigger numbers on checks than everyone else).
Tactical & Shernfire. They also tried to develop mikeyeung for a while
@@arua152 I dont know if you read my whole post but I explained why they can't take credit for developing tactical in it.
I also wouldn't say they developed shernfire as he already won 4 OPL titles and had been a 5 year pro before TL picked him up for 1 split then immediatly dropped him.
Mike yeung already had 2 lcs splits under his belt but I guess you could say they tried to develop him. I don't think failed development projects mean you are good at developing talent though.
I think that the thing is TL doesn't just buy a random player... TL buys the right players for their target, I think it's just what he's saying...
I don’t watch league but I will never pass an opportunity to listen to Steve and Jack talk about the behind the scenes aspects.
Fantastic discussion
Well this video certainly has some extra subtext to consider, C9 PERKZ LETS GO
love talkshows like this! we need more of that in lol
Best guests on this topic, great work Thorin
jesus thorin just dropping some insane content
unexpected BANGER
This is actually an insane line up.
I can't agree with Jack that there should be no import limit. If every lcs player was a Korean I and i assume others probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in watching. I wanna be able to root for my country, not just Korea and Korea 2.0
I mean LCS currently has the lowest viewership of all major region and their viewership number hasn't been improving when the esport scene has been growing. Status quo of LCS ain't working esp with how the product has gotten much worse both domestically and internationally. With bjergsen retiring and DL soon to follow suit I can see LCS dropping a sig portion of their viewership down the drain.
Banger lineup
Take it out back, tell it to close its eyes and that everything will be ok, ... And as you say the words "TSM wins worlds next year", you pull the trigger before it asks if Doublelift flashes this time. You shoot it in the back of the head.
anyone know the what the outro music is? I tried google sound search but it couldn't make a match.
Really great video Thorin. Well done.
"Everyone will think of 0-6 TSM" instead of how well TL did in their bracket
Here's the thing about the size of NA solo queue - the teams that don't pick up new talent for years make the prospect of going pro so slim for NA players that they don't want to spend the time to play.
Big boy guests holy shit
Thorin with the god tier content as always.
22:23 discord notification scared the fuck out of me hahaha
Thorin surfing from fire podcast to fire podcast.
0:51 “He didn’t have the answers” 😂😂😂
Thorin (or editor) be careful with the wrong tags of the video, it can be grounds for removal of the video by YT.
i hope its just an error, rather than a deliberate attempt to scam the tags
thoorin i have to know what your outro song is thats so amazing
where did they start talking about caps, i'm pretty sure it was in the vid?
Finally a podcast i’ve been starved
I think 1 thing that could make a real difference is simply having more diversity for teams across North America to play. The LCS is good for the highest level, but why not explore having a Demacia cup or even open circuit to not only have amateur teams play against the LCS, but have those same LCS teams rotate players around, especially seeing as they can feasibly afford to keep 7+ players on a roster
I've always believed that having a draft system in the LCS similar to the NBA would be great for the league. I would love to hear people's thoughts on this
It forces teams to have to invest in academy and scouting grounds so they don't waste there picks on bad players
@@woozywitanuzi6208 there is a draft system with scouting grounds
@@spring1242 but if you televise the draft and a combine like they do with sports it could make a huge hype train and make more NA kids excited about trying to be drafted. It allows teams to have franchise players to build around even though the incentive is always to win so you would never see teams tanking for high draft picks.
I mean caps was challenger at 14 and I'm not leaking anything but general sniper would be a sure fire 1st pick in a few years
Sorry Im dumb. But what's an FPL they are talking about?
Kinda unfortunate timing; soon after this, the PerkZ to C9 thing happened, "big" announcements for the changes to the NA amateur scene...
And none of you touched on the Bo1 vs Bo3 debate - nor the changes to the NA LCS in 2021.
Still a solid discussion, but could have been better.
Let's be honest, in a country of 330 million the only issue with the playbase is the fact that the server is absolute garbage...
@JuiceBox513 no, what I'm saying is that you can't get people to play the game anyway because the server fucking sucks
we're lucky to have these guys as owners and thorin as someone who gives a fuck about our shitty game lmao
If Teams are earning more we are going to pay more.
That is great and I agree with it, but I feel part of NA's problem is it doesn't finish that statement like other professional sports teams. "If teams are earning more we are going to pay more if the player is performing". That last part is very important and frankly part of NA's biggest problem. NA Pro's have little incentive to do much more than just the bare minimum to keep their position. That isn't saying that they all do that, but when the worst case scenario is "Half a dozen teams ready to pick me up at or close to my current salary even if I'm slumping for years", then it doesn't breed success. Teams should be far more willing to bench a player and bring up new talent and far less willing to pay top dollar to players who haven't performed in years.
Did Team Liquid do ANY development? They just paid more money to get their players. TSM developed Tactical, and TL snatched him. Now they're suddenly taking credit as THE BEST org for developing talent??~!
As an European, the prospect of giving more import slots to NA is terrifying. The news that Perkz might go to NA just speaks how EU is handicapped in terms of money ecosystem. It's absurd that the region that performs worse and has worse viewing production has that much more money. I really feel like that LEC needs to do smth on the greater level, otherwise we might see NA beat EU just by having a sheer number of better players. I mean, if they get both 'best' top laner and 2nd best midlaner from EU, there's no telling that other top players from EU might follow that trend. At some point, you are gonna have straight up worse players and have Rogue/Mad Lions performance.
Yeah, to me its unbelievable how people say these 'NA' teams are actually NA while having 2+ imports. Just look at TL, they have already 4 imports. Its just insane. Thats no NA team. Maybe in spring split there are more imports than native players, maybe that is already the case. I dont know. But the change is appalling.
Thank you for this
That video was awesome
Great video, good insights
Two best NA owners for sure
by far
I wanna know what headset Steve is using. I wanna buy those.
Steve's sunset is S Tier
Really great content!
How about only import restrictions for importing from the major regions? I don't see any problem importing from Turkey/Brazil for example.
import rules should be thightened again. This only kills minor regions. If NA doesnt learn to produce their own talent then they shuouldnt deserve the position they are in rn either way
Never knew Steve's surname, I like to think it's Jobs
its Arhencet
@@Zero-jt3bs I appreciate the info, nevertheless, I'll make as if I didn't read anything, I preffer the mistery
Steve's surname is Paid By.
I know it has already started but NA's failure internationally will change import rules even further.
I can see the next step being all wildcards regions will not count as imports.
After that, I can see them bumping the import slots to 3.
Starlink will be the solution for NA! If Starlink works, theoretically they could just give challenger players all other the world Starlink and have them play in NA to better the solo queue experience.
This was such a good topic and yet I feel like we haven't addressed the real issue, which was salary inflation from import rules. Steve's point about how LCS players get paid more because the LCS was able to monetize better than say the LEC is not really the narrative. When you have limited supply (NA star residents) and greater demand (only the teams that are able to sign those star residents contend), is when you get the outrageous numbers in regards to compensation. Opening up import rules and targeting the next generation of unknown talent (through investing in scouting/development) is the way to go. Trying to bring CAPS to NA is both too costly and not worth the risk. Trying to bring the next CAPS for half the player salary of current NA star residents is the way to go. The best part is, there are tons of these prospects under trainee programs in the LPL/LCK/LEC, the legwork has already been done as proven quantities, so it's less of a risk to bring over Clozer from T1 from a buyout.
This in turn will deflate the value of free agents such as Jensen and Power of Evil who suddenly aren't the only viable candidates, they'll still land somewhere, just not at their current salary level. Star residents getting their salary chopped in half in turn will make other "decent" residents get their salary slashed in half. The point is, only the tryhard residents will remain in NA and those that phone it in for a paycheck will quickly find themselves out of work as it should be.
The primary reason why so many players are able to maintain their form in Asia is because of job security, when you know there's a 15 year old just salivating at the prospect of stealing your chair, you cannot help but be constantly training to maintain your form. In NA, as long as you hit a certain threshold, you're in the untouchable gravy zone, that no matter what, you'll end up hired by a team somewhere that "needs" to field 3 NA residents.
Opening OCE is the first step, it's time for Riot to just remove import rules across all regions not just NA to normalize salaries across all major regions. The LEC/LPL/LCK fans that are worried about NA stealing their players need to realize it'll be harder for NA to attract tier 1 proven players like Rookie or Faker etc.. because NA will no longer have an incentive to give out these million dollar plus contracts. Not when they can bring a hot top 5 solo Q prodigy at 100K, who is dying to get to NA to make a name for themselves and become the next Faker, while it'd be much harder for them to standout if they remain within their region.
So in the short run, no major regions would get canibalized for the sake of NA. Salary would become relatable to other major regions. Half the upper management in NA would also get fired once they get exposed for not knowing how to find or develop talent, since they no longer have the excuse of not building a contender by not having 3 star residents. More great players from other regions end up in NA and their academy team which increases the value of solo Q.
It's a win win win across the board everywhere, except maybe Jack who will no longer to get people's kidneys from selling decently developed NA talent.
Removing the import rule is bad going from 2 to 3 can is good
Awesome content!
Hey Thorin, the microphones for flashpoint have been peaking out when casters shout! I noticed this especially when Semmler was getting excited, I hope this can be fixed.
Esports Salon thank god
great episode, but jack was kinda quiet in my opnion so I'd love to see some better audio management, otherwise love the content keep it up thornhin :D
Don’t care where the talent comes from as long as there’s some talent
Correct me if I'm wrong but Jack's solution to fix NA's results internationally is just let us not use NA players?
I agree that TSM is holding NA back as a region
Actually too bad he couldn't get Reggi to join. Still great stuff!
I don't have concerns about Bjergsen's leadership or coaching mentality, buuuuut - I Do Hope For TSMs Sake Reginald Lifted The Thorin Embargo So He Can Watch This Video.
The biggest problem in NA is Riot. Let the market determine the teams. Even if it means 5 Chinese or 5 Koreans. I want to watch the most competitive LCS matches.
Thorin needs to let them talk. we need to hear more from steve and jack........
@MasterSwagKing Entertainment I understand that but they are being polite to Thorin. If you watch the video, there are times in which there are long pauses after thorin goes on his tangent leaving Steve and jack a loss for words/lost of where to start their response on.
@MasterSwagKing Entertainment I just want to have more insight from people who run the organization.
Small change but can you make the Esports Salon part in the centre 100% opacity and not transparent
The only two owners I respect in NA.
Steve Team Liquid had Taeja and other korean players in Starcraft
Starcraft disagrees. When every team is just Korean, European, and Chinese, fans aren’t going to care. It’s not NA then.
#Niko #G2 #Thorin LOL