Nice refresher. In a beginner's video one might add that a DTI is a purely relative device. It measures the displacement of the plunger or finger, which has to be set by contact. That's why the dials can be rotated, you set zero where you want to start measuring. The DTI is a rack-and-pinion amplified by (literally) clockwork, a gear train. Some of them are even jeweled, just like a mechanical watch. Eventually the gears and jewels get gunk in them and they go slowly. Time then to have it cleaned and lubed, like any other mechanical device.
+k1mgy I will throw something like this in from time to time. I have several other "basics" videos I have posted over the years, usually with the title that starts with ?Machine Shop Basics".
Great video as usual mr Rucker. Really interesting and a good piece of useful knowledge. Now I need to spend some money on a dial indicator and a quality stand! :)
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org I don't even do machine shop work, I just want one since they are beautiful tools. :) I can always use it to check the specs on my late evening sandwiches! lol
Keith, when you talk quality, what is the quality difference between a starrett vs shares. So part per part or parts makes a starrett better quality than x unit! Dont get me wrong I love starrett tools and are most of my hand tools. If you can define would be helpful to define quality understandings!
+John Strange All of the dial indicators I have use 4-48 threads. I cannot say for certain that every indicator out there uses this, but at least mine seem to.
+Andy Coakes Looks like you are first again Andy! I still think that you hold the record. Yes, things are doing fine with me and my family. Happy new year!
Keith - Nice roundup. Maybe a followup how-to video on how to use an indicator to measure run out, and parallel-ism, of a work piece or machinery. Nothing too fancy, just quick and dirty. You probably could just go back to your video archives and grab a few minutes of various type of indicator work you have done, removing the original audio and dubbing in new commentary.
Thanks Keith for all the sharing you do. I enjoy the projects as well as the basics. If you did not benefit from a formal education in machining but just "picked it up along the way" the basics are always helpful to round out your knowledge. Good solid content presented as only you can do! Thanks! How's the shop coming??
+Roger Parry Thanks Roger. The shop has not started going up yet due to all of the rain we have had over the past three weeks - or in the case of what we have been dealing with, flooding around here. But, they are supposed to deliver my lumber today and the contractors will get started either this afternoon or in the morning depending on when the delivery gets here!
Hi Kieth just a note about your mic cable. It is beginning to fail during certain movement ..when you lean forward to pick up the 670-B @20:00 There must be some fraying of conductors . These are delicate and small gauge but a bit of solder and some shrink tube etc and she'll be as good as new unless you have to deal with a plastic molding. Then you ought to buy a decent connector that may be soldered. Of course replacement may be more realistic. I have no recollection of you doing electronics ...
Hi, Keith, I have a '196' Starrett indicator set - very nice. Starrett uses a capital letter after the model number to indicate (pardon the pun) the actual set/part - in this case (another pun - English is like that..) you have a 196G, the dial indicator is a 196, without a letter. Another example is Starrett precision Screwdrivers; I have 3 (one in use, 2 back up) 551G screwdrivers - the 'G' says it is a #1 Phillip; other blades have other letters. The 551 says Starrett Precision Screwdriver. I work in a production environment and I am tightening up screws in the terminal of M12 Sensor Connectors - very tiny and fiddly - I obtained a set of S....y precision drivers and the particular Phillips No 1 lasted maybe 6 months and that was pushing it; my Starrett is going on 18 months, and while a tad worn, still performs like new. The S.....y set cost AU$13, while the single Starret was double that, so for twice the cost I have so far got 3 times the life, and it is performing well. Good vid, Keith, I love to see them - this one was particularly handy, and, yes, I have a Starrett 196G set, as well as a couple of Mitutoyo 2046S dial indicators from a previous workplace (Railroad sleeper/tie manufacturer): they ditch anything that has been damaged, as they are used in quality control, rather than fixing them I also have a Teclock (Japan) which still works OK, as well as a couple of Starrett Best Test indicators - old but part of my Collection.
FWIW to others I use a standard dial indicator way more than any of the other styles. Sometimes I will use the last word style but it isn't real often. I find the dial indicator with the attachments like the hole indicating arm to be easier to use.
+bcbloc02 I would have to admit that the regular dial indicator is what I use probably 90% of the time, but for some tasks, a good test indicator is very useful.
Enjoyed...agreed with the issue of the snake holder as I was excited to purchase (fowler) and learned it was junk, better off with the cheap standard post type with snugs if Noga is too expensive
+outsidescrewball I wish that I had my post type when I shot the video but I could not find it. It turned up shortly after I finished editing the video as I was cleaning up my shop over the weekend. I used the post type for years and they work fine, but nearly as handy as the Noga! Thanks!
Keith FWIW years ago I bought a Central "snake" mount.... Paid allot of $$$$ for it & the thing is useless.... For years I used the old school rods & knuckles... They are okay, not great but okay..... I kept seeing Noga mounts & was impressed But me being me I cheaped out & tried a Chinoga.... Same deal... Junk... Bought my first Noga & haven't looked back....
In the beginning I had one indicator. A Last Word, along with a Federal 1" travel indicator. 30 something years later I got indicators and bases coming out of my ears. I watched this and am wondering, "what the heck happened?" Lol
just a quick note for all my fellow newbies/ part timers.. metric indicators usually have a yellow dial face to help differentiate between metric and standard... and keiths right, buy the best you can afford, especially when it comes to measurment tools. that said Shars are good import ones, the difference comes in longetivity. very often the rack and pinion gear inside of them wears out VERY quickly. test it once a month with heavy use with some gauge blocks and a stand, and make sure you test a range of heights, indicators can and do wear out within ranges..
i made the mistake of buying noga import copies twice. never again. utter garbage. i broke down and bought a small genuine noga and was blown away at the quality. best stand i own.
In past times American made ment something but that is not so any more I have found that lots of manufacturers build a reputation for quality only profits to ruin a once best built product is not so anymore or it depends where you buy it. In Canada you can buy tools with a reputation for quality than a company like Canadian tire will have a sale for half price you paid at a store that only deals with professional tradesmen. I'm here to say it's not the same tool there not made with the same parts..
Thanks Keith. I hadn't thought of looking for different indicator tips. I just did a task that required indicating a piece of allthread. A flat button tip would've been handy. Thanks, John
+zyzzy1944 I will keep that in mind for future videos. I think I did a video on micrometers a while back but I don't think I have done one on calipers.
I had one of the cheapo knockoff holders. The magnet was fine but the tensioner had to be tightened so much that the pivot balls expanded the sockets and they popped out. JUNK! I have a Shars hydraulic that is much nicer but the center joint stays stiff after the balls release so it is a real pain to use. Then I bought the Noga. Wow.... that is how it is supposed to work! So I got a second one.
+john reed I am with you on the Noga. It is just perfect! Expensive yes, but worth every penny! To anybody looking to buy an indicator holder, just buy the Noga and be done with it!
I've tried the Shars version of the Noga... Don't waste your money. Not even close. It works but you really have to crank it down to lock it up securely. In my opinion if you can't afford the Noga you're better off with the older style mechanical rod style (very cheap) and use the savings toward a Noga.
Keith, Even though I have an idea of what I'm going to get in the way of indicators and holders, it's always helpful to have someone's take of what they use and why. Thanks for sharing your choice of indicators and why you use them. I always find your videos (as well as those of others) to have valuable nuggets of information. Thanks again, Keith! Have a good one! Dave
I acquired an Interapid indicator, a name not as well known as Starrett or Mitutoyo, but a high quality indicator………pricey new, but deals can be found used. On the cheaper end of the scale, SPI comes to mind.
Love Ya Keith, but I must add that in my opinion a Starrett is a tool. A horrible freight dial indicator is a 10 dollar wannabe toy. I'll never buy another one. For my money, if it doesn't say Starrett or Browne and Sharpe, I probably wont buy it. I am tempted to try Shars as they seem to have an honorable reputation. You are a valuable asset to all us gear heads and antique freaks. THANK YOU !
ATM, I'm debating buying a high resolution indicator and came across your video. Right now, my highest resolution indicator is a Starrett 25-611. Measures tenths. Like you, I also work on vintage machinery, but not at as high of a level. I have a Delta DP-220 drill press from 1941 in the shop. Actually there are four of them here, among others, but I digress. Tried out a number of chucks and settled on a keyless Rohm - less than a *tenth* TIR a half inch out. Remarkable. Have never seen anything like this before on a drill press with a chuck. The indicator that I'm looking at resolves in 0.00005" steps. The thing is, I'm not entirely sure that I'll have another opportunity to use it and it's not inexpensive. Decisions. Maybe I should just leave the machine as is and move on.
Although a woodworker and not a machinist, I use some precision tools mostly in calibrating my machines. I recently bought a Starrett indicator and a set of tips for it. I can’t unscrew the knurled tip on the end of. The plunger. I’m afraid to really crank on it. Is there a trick to getting it off?
I am looking for a rolling stand that moves 360° to set my magnetic base indicator on. It sits on 3 bearings and can placed on a plate with a race that allows the stand to roll around within the race. I've heard it being referred to as a "fireball" but can't find one. Does anyone know what I'm talking about/looking for?
Funny thing, the only micrometers I ever had give me a perfect "0" calibration at min and max were the Shars boxed set I bought on Ebay (0-7" for under $100) just to have a backup if something happened to one of my "good name brand" mics until I could replace it.
I was very fortunate to buy a brand new Compac dial indicator a few years ago that reads in tenths and has a range of .200 inch. Sadly Compac only sells metric indicators now and even their sister brand Mercer has limited inch models. They really are the best on the market though.
Thanks a lot for this rundown. I can definitely attest to how poorly a cheap indicator holder will work I ended up with two of those before I knew any better. A friend got a Noga, with a lathe he purchased. I'll ask to borrow it on my next project.
Some testing from other youtubers shows the spring pressure isn't as consistent on imports compared to quality indicators. If it's mounted on a magnet that might actually mean it reads properly close to the extended travel but will slide the magnet and read incorrectly near the compressed state. If the part you're measuring is thin the deflection might matter too. So I think if you use an import indicator for say a travel indicator, a strong magnet is important.
Keith-- On test indicators, do you prefer the style with the tip that can be moved to any angle, or the style that is set in the center? I only have the ones set in the center and don't really like them. Also, you mentioned tramming in the vise a bunch but I don't recall you mentioning tramming in the head much. I preferably you would use a rear-plunge button indicator?
+justfakeit888 I like the ones that you can move the tip around. Most test indicators have this feature. As for tramming in the head, I mostly use a cylinder square - I am pretty sure I did a video on that a while back. Much easier and just as accurate.
Great video. By pure chance, I happen to own most of those, but I’m not a machinist and would love to see you actually use them for their intended purposes.
I wonder if you could use that cheap indicator holder for a camera mount. I love my NOGA and have used it to hold a camera, but I would probably get a knock-off if I wanted a dedicated camera mount. Chris
Hi am trying to measure the the outside of the tire ( threads side ) ,i saw a video using a bearing attached to the dial indicator ,do you know where i can find this attachment ? nice video
+Eugen N I don't know that metric is more "accurate", but it is true that 0.01 mm is a finer resolution than 0.001". It is not uncommon to measure to a ten thousandths of an inch when it is needed (0.0001"). Almost all of my mics will measure to a ten thousandths as will a few of my indicators. But I rarely have the need to measure to that level of accuracy.
I dont wanna argue you are absolutely right there is no need to be that accurate in every case, the thing is the "corsest" metric indicator measures in 0.01mm and there is one further step the 0.001mm, for example its just disturbing to see how they true motocycle crankshafts that are mean to be trued to 0.01mm to 0.02 inches and they call it good :D thats just waaaay too off the tolerance it should have. Maybe someone is looking for indicators to true cranks, he can find it useful
Good coverage of indicators. Useful. When I started out in the toolroom of a family business (cold heading) my grandfather fitted me out with a basic set of tools. The indicator he chose for me was the Starrett back-plunge indicator, with the set of adapters and accessories (in the nice red Starrett box). I never went on to make a career in machining, but I still have that set. For a long time it was my only indicator. BTW, you might mention that even though the graduations are in 1/1000ths, you can read indicators like this (and the other 1/1000ths indicators you showed) to 1/2 a thousandth easily, and be pretty close to a quarter or third of a thousandth. For centering in a 4-jaw, the quiver of the needle will let you get centered to a couple of tenths - always assuming that your indicator holder will hold it steady enough. Excellent advice on getting a Noga or other high-quality holder, especially with the lower quality indicators which usually have a stronger return spring to make up for the slightly less free-running mechanisms in those indicators.
Nice tips on indicators, especially the one on getting specialized tips. You answered one question I had on one of the hole attachements. I had one I got in an auction lot and didn't realize it was for use with a back plunger indicator instead of a normal indicator (which I couldn't figure out how it would work). I have more indicators than what one person would need in normal use, but some of the older ones are fun to collect, especially the ones with large faces.
+ILGopher Don't forget, Fenner's toolbox isn't the only one you donated to ;) I use the back-plunge set you gave me all the time. It did take me a while to figure out how to use it, and the numbers it was giving me, but the 196-A1 clone from Central is still the only nice "Red Box" of tooling I own...I I really appreciate it too. Happy New Year Ryan! Aloha...Chuck
Happy New Year, Chuck. Don't temp me as I might just have to find a dial indicator to send to you some time...although the Noga arm to go along with it might be iffy. :-) Nice to hear from you, Chuck. I hope things are going well for you and your family on the farm.
You've already been so generous, please just know I'm forever grateful! Also, I'm pretty well set for dial indicators, and am working on getting some materials to make some attachments for them to secure onto my old SB. I've got one on a magnet like everyone uses for their carriages, but I need to devise something for my compound, which doesn't have a micrometer dial it's so old-school, LOL! Saving up for a Noga arm one of these days too, but I do have a knock off that I massaged to operate well enough. It holds nice and tight, but I do despise the fine adjust at the top! If you just touch it the tiniest bit you've got to start all over... I'm going to get back into making a few videos now that I think I have something worth showing. Keep your eyes peeled ;) Aloha...Chuck
I too bought an indicator that locks up ok, but is let down by the fine adjust on the indicator mount. It flaps around and makes it useless. I have tried to buy Noga however the shipping to Aus' makes the final cost around $235 Australian. ! There are a few suppliers here but they are charging the same price. Very frustrating !
I use HG indicator stands mostly, I have few Nogas and I like them, but HG hydraulic stands are my go to brand. They are a bit more expensive than Noga, however the difference is minimal. As for indicators, in general I buy Mitutoyos and Tesa (brown & sharpe), never been disappointed so far, either with stands or indicators. 1 micron dials are around 130-150€, so as far as it goes for price - not a huge difference compared to Starrett or any other brand. It's just a matter of preference. I try to avoid Starrett myself, because I had some corrosion issues in the past, with several of their tools, but other than that, they seem to be just fine.
HG dial indicator stands th-cam.com/video/AMGhNXaliUQ/w-d-xo.html There's not much about them on youtube - they're quite a small company, but really, highest possible quality stands. And I don't like German tools of late. I have some dial indicators from 50's from the old DDR which work flawlessly, but newer stuff from there.. Just naaah.
Hello there KEITH RUCKER Esq Al the best for Your 2016 Nice intro to basic selection of these "clock Guages" - as they AKA !!! Well presented and like always - something we can garner good info from. Thanks a stack and keep 'em rolling aRM
I teach high school machine shop and I agree on buying import indicators. I also purchase import calipers and micrometers for the kids at school. Simply because these precision tools are basically disposable with students. And it makes little difference weather they drop a Starrett dial caliper or an Enco. Once it is dropped it is junk and I would rather throw out a $35.00 caliper rather than a $135.00 caliper. Thanks! Mike
+Junk Mikes World I could not agree more for a school shop class. But in my shop, I like to have quality tools that I can depend on. I have bought junk too many times and had to go back and buy it again. But there is indeed a time and place for the import stuff.
Hi Keith, I'm a member of your site and OWWM as well. I've been wanting to get a dial indicator to check the arbor runout on my unisaw. I wrote down the Starrett model you have in the video. Low and behold, I bought one locally today on craigslist for $45. It's an older one with the L.S. Starrett logo. My only issue is the dial glass falls out and it doesn't always go back to zero. i can tighten the thumbscrew after i zero but sometimes the dial hand doesn't go return to zero. I can tap the front and then it will. Any thoughts ? Thanks, tommitytomtom
+Tom Jenkins Tom, as for the indicator not returning to zero each time, it is probably because the spring in the indicator is getting week. Just put a load on the indicator so that it is not going back to where there is no pressure on it. You can rotate the dial and make zero anywhere you want it to be. I suspect that your indicator would be a good candidate for being rebuilt - they would also put a new crystal on it at the same time which will take care of the glass falling out. You can send it off to many places to get re-built, including back to the factory at Starrett or one of the many independent companies like Long Island Indicator.
Keith you really should mention the better resolution of metric indicators. 1/1000 inch = .025mm and the markings on a metric indicator are .01mm, better even than your indicator with half thousandth markings.
+desmondwaterstone But finer resolution on an indicator starts getting to a point of diminishing returns at some point. When you start getting down to 1/1000 of an inch, you will drive yourself crazy trying to get something set that fine and unless you are making parts for the Hubble Telescope or something, you don't need accuracy to that level. I have a couple of tenths indicators but I rarely use them as I usually don't need to measure to that level. So, I don't know that I would call a metric indicator better, just measuring at different increments.
This video has come in just the right time. All the stuff I do is just hobby. I've been using a square as a indicator. I had a bunch of runout on my drill press and when I see that the square was flush with the chuck, I called it square. Now I'm looking at indicators. Thanks Keith for the video.
Nice vid Keith. One question that I had, could you use that cheap snake holder for different application? For example a flashlight holder. Or mount a magnet on the end for a small parts holder?
Hello Keith, Very interesting video and nice that you also showed a metric dial indicator for the outsiders like me. Even that I don't do much with a laid or that kind of things I maybe go buy also an dial indicator. Always handy for precision measurements with all kind of things. Again as always a good video and looking forward to the next one ! Many greetings from Roel !
+RoelTyros Thanks for watching and commenting. It is amazing how often I drag my dial indicators into the wood shop since I have them. They are very useful for a lot of things!
Hi Keith Love you videos ! Just what to mention there is a Starrett Last Word indicator model # 711 that reads down to .0005.Keep them coming love your new shop!
I'm an auto tech that discovered machining thanks to you tube. Thanks for this instructional video. Hop e you will make more along these lines as well as your usuals. It looks like Starrett is the Snap On of the machine world.
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Nice refresher. In a beginner's video one might add that a DTI is a purely relative device. It measures the displacement of the plunger or finger, which has to be set by contact. That's why the dials can be rotated, you set zero where you want to start measuring. The DTI is a rack-and-pinion amplified by (literally) clockwork, a gear train. Some of them are even jeweled, just like a mechanical watch. Eventually the gears and jewels get gunk in them and they go slowly. Time then to have it cleaned and lubed, like any other mechanical device.
very helpful. please consider similar content in other "basics" topic areas.
+k1mgy I will throw something like this in from time to time. I have several other "basics" videos I have posted over the years, usually with the title that starts with ?Machine Shop Basics".
Keith - Nice roundup. Maybe a followup how-to video on using an indicator to measure run out, and parallel-ism, of a work piece or machinery.
+cemx86 I will keep that in mind for down the road!
i use a metric indicator even though i work with standard dimensions i find it keeps people from borrowing it since they cant read it.
Well metric is just superior xD
@@TheDayzman no, it’s not. It’s just different. Just as easy (and sometimes easier) to work inch, if you know what you’re doing.
Metric allows the cnc machine too have a finer wear comp adjustment.
thanks again for a very informative presentation one I need now. your timing is prefect
+Mert Silliker My pleasure. Thank you for watching!
Great video as usual mr Rucker. Really interesting and a good piece of useful knowledge. Now I need to spend some money on a dial indicator and a quality stand! :)
+dixonqwerty If you are going to do machine shop work, a good dial indicator is a must...
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org I don't even do machine shop work, I just want one since they are beautiful tools. :)
I can always use it to check the specs on my late evening sandwiches! lol
Keith, when you talk quality, what is the quality difference between a starrett vs shares. So part per part or parts makes a starrett better quality than x unit!
Dont get me wrong I love starrett tools and are most of my hand tools.
If you can define would be helpful to define quality understandings!
You should also look at the effects of where your money/ support goes and calculate in wear and tear without the possibility of repair or rebuild.
Great review Keith. :)
+ChrisB257 Thanks!
Is there an industry standard indicator tip thread size? - Thanks
+John Strange All of the dial indicators I have use 4-48 threads. I cannot say for certain that every indicator out there uses this, but at least mine seem to.
Good to know, thank you.
hi keith hope all is well with you and your family
+Andy Coakes Looks like you are first again Andy! I still think that you hold the record. Yes, things are doing fine with me and my family. Happy new year!
happy new keith Amanda bought me a pillar drill for Christmas
Johnson Laura Miller Jose Brown Thomas
Jackson Lisa Williams Scott Thompson Michelle
I am completely green. This is EXACTLY what I needed. Thank you.
I think they make a cream for that.
@@HomebrewHorsepower MSC sells it.
Keith - Nice roundup. Maybe a followup how-to video on how to use an indicator to measure run out, and parallel-ism, of a work piece or machinery. Nothing too fancy, just quick and dirty. You probably could just go back to your video archives and grab a few minutes of various type of indicator work you have done, removing the original audio and dubbing in new commentary.
Thank you Keith, your videos are extremely helpful for a beginner. Excellent video and audio production also. Thanks again!!!
Thanks Keith for all the sharing you do. I enjoy the projects as well as the basics. If you did not benefit from a formal education in machining but just "picked it up along the way" the basics are always helpful to round out your knowledge. Good solid content presented as only you can do! Thanks! How's the shop coming??
+Roger Parry Thanks Roger. The shop has not started going up yet due to all of the rain we have had over the past three weeks - or in the case of what we have been dealing with, flooding around here. But, they are supposed to deliver my lumber today and the contractors will get started either this afternoon or in the morning depending on when the delivery gets here!
Hi Kieth just a note about your mic cable. It is beginning to fail during certain movement ..when you lean forward to pick up the 670-B @20:00
There must be some fraying of conductors . These are delicate and small gauge but a bit of solder and some shrink tube etc and she'll be as good as new unless you have to deal with a plastic molding. Then you ought to buy a decent connector that may be soldered. Of course replacement may be more realistic. I have no recollection of you doing electronics ...
Keith, I really enjoy your videos! Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience!!
Hi, Keith, I have a '196' Starrett indicator set - very nice. Starrett uses a capital letter after the model number to indicate (pardon the pun) the actual set/part - in this case (another pun - English is like that..) you have a 196G, the dial indicator is a 196, without a letter. Another example is Starrett precision Screwdrivers; I have 3 (one in use, 2 back up) 551G screwdrivers - the 'G' says it is a #1 Phillip; other blades have other letters. The 551 says Starrett Precision Screwdriver. I work in a production environment and I am tightening up screws in the terminal of M12 Sensor Connectors - very tiny and fiddly - I obtained a set of S....y precision drivers and the particular Phillips No 1 lasted maybe 6 months and that was pushing it; my Starrett is going on 18 months, and while a tad worn, still performs like new. The S.....y set cost AU$13, while the single Starret was double that, so for twice the cost I have so far got 3 times the life, and it is performing well. Good vid, Keith, I love to see them - this one was particularly handy, and, yes, I have a Starrett 196G set, as well as a couple of Mitutoyo 2046S dial indicators from a previous workplace (Railroad sleeper/tie manufacturer): they ditch anything that has been damaged, as they are used in quality control, rather than fixing them I also have a Teclock (Japan) which still works OK, as well as a couple of Starrett Best Test indicators - old but part of my Collection.
FWIW to others I use a standard dial indicator way more than any of the other styles. Sometimes I will use the last word style but it isn't real often. I find the dial indicator with the attachments like the hole indicating arm to be easier to use.
+bcbloc02 I would have to admit that the regular dial indicator is what I use probably 90% of the time, but for some tasks, a good test indicator is very useful.
Enjoyed...agreed with the issue of the snake holder as I was excited to purchase (fowler) and learned it was junk, better off with the cheap standard post type with snugs if Noga is too expensive
+outsidescrewball I wish that I had my post type when I shot the video but I could not find it. It turned up shortly after I finished editing the video as I was cleaning up my shop over the weekend. I used the post type for years and they work fine, but nearly as handy as the Noga! Thanks!
Keith FWIW years ago I bought a Central "snake" mount.... Paid allot of $$$$ for it & the thing is useless.... For years I used the old school rods & knuckles... They are okay, not great but okay..... I kept seeing Noga mounts & was impressed But me being me I cheaped out & tried a Chinoga.... Same deal... Junk... Bought my first Noga & haven't looked back....
In the beginning I had one indicator. A Last Word, along with a Federal 1" travel indicator. 30 something years later I got indicators and bases coming out of my ears. I watched this and am wondering, "what the heck happened?" Lol
just a quick note for all my fellow newbies/ part timers.. metric indicators usually have a yellow dial face to help differentiate between metric and standard... and keiths right, buy the best you can afford, especially when it comes to measurment tools.
that said Shars are good import ones, the difference comes in longetivity. very often the rack and pinion gear inside of them wears out VERY quickly. test it once a month with heavy use with some gauge blocks and a stand, and make sure you test a range of heights, indicators can and do wear out within ranges..
I have Pictures of a German Made 1900 Lathe , where can I Send this Pictures , Shop is located at Costa Rica Central America
Thompson David Williams Jessica Hernandez Mary
Thomas Steven Walker Edward Hall Anthony
i made the mistake of buying noga import copies twice. never again. utter garbage.
i broke down and bought a small genuine noga and was blown away at the quality. best stand i own.
Lewis Jeffrey Williams John Martin Robert
In past times American made ment something but that is not so any more I have found that lots of manufacturers build a reputation for quality only profits to ruin a once best built product is not so anymore or it depends where you buy it. In Canada you can buy tools with a reputation for quality than a company like Canadian tire will have a sale for half price you paid at a store that only deals with professional tradesmen. I'm here to say it's not the same tool there not made with the same parts..
Hall Dorothy Walker Cynthia Lewis Christopher
Anderson Angela Thomas Patricia Allen Dorothy
As my father used to say " we are not as rich to buy cheap tools" i couldn't understand that but 30 years later on the business...i did
White David Rodriguez Daniel Hall Jennifer
Thanks Keith. I hadn't thought of looking for different indicator tips. I just did a task that required indicating a piece of allthread.
A flat button tip would've been handy.
Thanks,
John
+John Bazaar You would be surprised how often I change the tips out on my indicators depending on the job a hand.
Lopez William Taylor Carol Rodriguez Jose
Thomas Mary Hernandez Angela Lopez Deborah
Jackson Christopher Lee Kevin Garcia Gary
Thompson Christopher Davis Christopher Garcia Gary
Jackson Frank Thompson Mark White Melissa
As my father in law used to say, "Costs a little more, but I believe it's worth it." I think that applies here, for sure.
Thanks for sharing, Keith.
+Joseph Magedanz No doubt - always better to pay for quality once than junk over and over again....
White Mark Jones Linda Martinez Thomas
What about an antique LUFKIN .0001 indicator??
What about an antique LUFKIN .0001 indicator??
Walker Timothy Harris Jason Smith Gary
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great video! this helps a lot. tooling up my shop slowly for machine work so I have been shopping for measuring instruments. perfect timing!
+Killinger Glad I was able to help!
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Miller Jessica Walker Donna Hernandez Linda
Who makes the monster indicator holder? Is that a NOGA?
Perez Kenneth Jones Margaret Lewis Eric
No Interrapid's? Best indicator out there.
Great informative video - Thanks.
Could you also do a similar one on micrometers and calipers?
Jack
+zyzzy1944 I will keep that in mind for future videos. I think I did a video on micrometers a while back but I don't think I have done one on calipers.
Walker Michael Garcia Jessica Miller Brenda
The Noga is my favorite machine shop tool. It is a lifesaver. I had one of those cheap articulating arms like you showed and it was beyond useless.
Wilson Jose White Sharon Hall Sharon
I just bought my first dial indicator its a Starrett last word with the magnetic stand. Thanks for the video very helpful information.
Anderson Gary Lee Paul Lee Frank
Great video. Thank you!
You just got a subscriber because you said English Units. I know you know what you're talking about.
+if66was99 Thank you!
I had one of the cheapo knockoff holders. The magnet was fine but the tensioner had to be tightened so much that the pivot balls expanded the sockets and they popped out. JUNK! I have a Shars hydraulic that is much nicer but the center joint stays stiff after the balls release so it is a real pain to use. Then I bought the Noga. Wow.... that is how it is supposed to work! So I got a second one.
+john reed I am with you on the Noga. It is just perfect! Expensive yes, but worth every penny! To anybody looking to buy an indicator holder, just buy the Noga and be done with it!
I've tried the Shars version of the Noga... Don't waste your money. Not even close. It works but you really have to crank it down to lock it up securely. In my opinion if you can't afford the Noga you're better off with the older style mechanical rod style (very cheap) and use the savings toward a Noga.
+rfcarlson1 That is good input to hear. I am with you, just buy a Noga and know that you have invested in quality!
Keith,
Even though I have an idea of what I'm going to get in the way of indicators and holders, it's always helpful to have someone's take of what they use and why. Thanks for sharing your choice of indicators and why you use them. I always find your videos (as well as those of others) to have valuable nuggets of information. Thanks again, Keith!
Have a good one!
Dave
+Swarf Rat Thanks Dave. This video was a request, but I hope that many will find it useful!
Good Job. Thank You
Every thing I own is garbage.
I acquired an Interapid indicator, a name not as well known as Starrett or Mitutoyo, but a high quality indicator………pricey new, but deals can be found used. On the cheaper end of the scale, SPI comes to mind.
+Steve Watroba I have never owned an Intrepid, but I have used one a few times. They are great!
great very informative HOW IS THE NEW SHOP?
+Robert Corrie They finally started on the new shop this week. I will try and put together a video with some shop updates this weekend.
Audio issue at 20min in.
Love Ya Keith, but I must add that in my opinion a Starrett is a tool. A horrible freight dial indicator is a 10 dollar wannabe toy. I'll never buy another one. For my money, if it doesn't say Starrett or Browne and Sharpe, I probably wont buy it. I am tempted to try Shars as they seem to have an honorable reputation. You are a valuable asset to all us gear heads and antique freaks. THANK YOU !
ATM, I'm debating buying a high resolution indicator and came across your video. Right now, my highest resolution indicator is a Starrett 25-611. Measures tenths. Like you, I also work on vintage machinery, but not at as high of a level. I have a Delta DP-220 drill press from 1941 in the shop. Actually there are four of them here, among others, but I digress. Tried out a number of chucks and settled on a keyless Rohm - less than a *tenth* TIR a half inch out. Remarkable. Have never seen anything like this before on a drill press with a chuck. The indicator that I'm looking at resolves in 0.00005" steps. The thing is, I'm not entirely sure that I'll have another opportunity to use it and it's not inexpensive. Decisions. Maybe I should just leave the machine as is and move on.
Although a woodworker and not a machinist, I use some precision tools mostly in calibrating my machines. I recently bought a Starrett indicator and a set of tips for it. I can’t unscrew the knurled tip on the end of. The plunger. I’m afraid to really crank on it. Is there a trick to getting it off?
I am looking for a rolling stand that moves 360° to set my magnetic base indicator on. It sits on 3 bearings and can placed on a plate with a race that allows the stand to roll around within the race. I've heard it being referred to as a "fireball" but can't find one. Does anyone know what I'm talking about/looking for?
Funny thing, the only micrometers I ever had give me a perfect "0" calibration at min and max were the Shars boxed set I bought on Ebay (0-7" for under $100) just to have a backup if something happened to one of my "good name brand" mics until I could replace it.
I was very fortunate to buy a brand new Compac dial indicator a few years ago that reads in tenths and has a range of .200 inch. Sadly Compac only sells metric indicators now and even their sister brand Mercer has limited inch models. They really are the best on the market though.
Since I ordered a (infamous) mini lathe, you gave me the exact answers I was looking for :)
Thanks.
Thanks a lot for this rundown.
I can definitely attest to how poorly a cheap indicator holder will work I ended up with two of those before I knew any better.
A friend got a Noga, with a lathe he purchased. I'll ask to borrow it on my next project.
Want to get a Noga dial indicator holder. Which Noga model do you recommend to use on measuring the tightness of rear wheel bearings on automobiles?
Some testing from other youtubers shows the spring pressure isn't as consistent on imports compared to quality indicators. If it's mounted on a magnet that might actually mean it reads properly close to the extended travel but will slide the magnet and read incorrectly near the compressed state. If the part you're measuring is thin the deflection might matter too.
So I think if you use an import indicator for say a travel indicator, a strong magnet is important.
Keith-- On test indicators, do you prefer the style with the tip that can be moved to any angle, or the style that is set in the center? I only have the ones set in the center and don't really like them.
Also, you mentioned tramming in the vise a bunch but I don't recall you mentioning tramming in the head much. I preferably you would use a rear-plunge button indicator?
+justfakeit888 I like the ones that you can move the tip around. Most test indicators have this feature. As for tramming in the head, I mostly use a cylinder square - I am pretty sure I did a video on that a while back. Much easier and just as accurate.
Great video. By pure chance, I happen to own most of those, but I’m not a machinist and would love to see you actually use them for their intended purposes.
I wonder if you could use that cheap indicator holder for a camera mount. I love my NOGA and have used it to hold a camera, but I would probably get a knock-off if I wanted a dedicated camera mount. Chris
+shadowdog500 I don't think it would be strong enough to hold my camera up. That thing is pure JUNK!
Hi am trying to measure the the outside of the tire ( threads side ) ,i saw a video using a bearing attached to the dial indicator ,do you know where i can find this attachment ? nice video
Terrific video. Great overview of the subject. Thanks!
but metric's are more accurate right? 0.01mm is 0.0003"
+Eugen N I don't know that metric is more "accurate", but it is true that 0.01 mm is a finer resolution than 0.001". It is not uncommon to measure to a ten thousandths of an inch when it is needed (0.0001"). Almost all of my mics will measure to a ten thousandths as will a few of my indicators. But I rarely have the need to measure to that level of accuracy.
I dont wanna argue you are absolutely right there is no need to be that accurate in every case, the thing is the "corsest" metric indicator measures in 0.01mm and there is one further step the 0.001mm, for example its just disturbing to see how they true motocycle crankshafts that are mean to be trued to 0.01mm to 0.02 inches and they call it good :D thats just waaaay too off the tolerance it should have. Maybe someone is looking for indicators to true cranks, he can find it useful
+metalhead2508 of course they are, I used the wrong word, I meant fine, 0.01mm is finer than 0.01inches
Good coverage of indicators. Useful.
When I started out in the toolroom of a family business (cold heading) my grandfather fitted me out with a basic set of tools. The indicator he chose for me was the Starrett back-plunge indicator, with the set of adapters and accessories (in the nice red Starrett box). I never went on to make a career in machining, but I still have that set. For a long time it was my only indicator.
BTW, you might mention that even though the graduations are in 1/1000ths, you can read indicators like this (and the other 1/1000ths indicators you showed) to 1/2 a thousandth easily, and be pretty close to a quarter or third of a thousandth. For centering in a 4-jaw, the quiver of the needle will let you get centered to a couple of tenths - always assuming that your indicator holder will hold it steady enough. Excellent advice on getting a Noga or other high-quality holder, especially with the lower quality indicators which usually have a stronger return spring to make up for the slightly less free-running mechanisms in those indicators.
+Peter W. Meek All good points. I am glad that you still have that old indicator from your grandfather - nice to have tools with a family connection!
Nice tips on indicators, especially the one on getting specialized tips. You answered one question I had on one of the hole attachements. I had one I got in an auction lot and didn't realize it was for use with a back plunger indicator instead of a normal indicator (which I couldn't figure out how it would work). I have more indicators than what one person would need in normal use, but some of the older ones are fun to collect, especially the ones with large faces.
+ILGopher I guess you cannot have too many indicators. Unless you run out of space to put them!
Yeah, but it does also give me a chance the last couple years to pick out one or two extra's to donate to Keith Fenner's give-a-way.
+ILGopher Don't forget, Fenner's toolbox isn't the only one you donated to ;) I use the back-plunge set you gave me all the time. It did take me a while to figure out how to use it, and the numbers it was giving me, but the 196-A1 clone from Central is still the only nice "Red Box" of tooling I own...I I really appreciate it too. Happy New Year Ryan! Aloha...Chuck
Happy New Year, Chuck. Don't temp me as I might just have to find a dial indicator to send to you some time...although the Noga arm to go along with it might be iffy. :-)
Nice to hear from you, Chuck. I hope things are going well for you and your family on the farm.
You've already been so generous, please just know I'm forever grateful! Also, I'm pretty well set for dial indicators, and am working on getting some materials to make some attachments for them to secure onto my old SB. I've got one on a magnet like everyone uses for their carriages, but I need to devise something for my compound, which doesn't have a micrometer dial it's so old-school, LOL!
Saving up for a Noga arm one of these days too, but I do have a knock off that I massaged to operate well enough. It holds nice and tight, but I do despise the fine adjust at the top! If you just touch it the tiniest bit you've got to start all over...
I'm going to get back into making a few videos now that I think I have something worth showing. Keep your eyes peeled ;)
Aloha...Chuck
I too bought an indicator that locks up ok, but is let down by the fine adjust on the indicator mount. It flaps around and makes it useless. I have tried to buy Noga however the shipping to Aus' makes the final cost around $235 Australian. ! There are a few suppliers here but they are charging the same price. Very frustrating !
+Colin Riley Yeah, that would stink. The Noga is really nice tool.
I use HG indicator stands mostly, I have few Nogas and I like them, but HG hydraulic stands are my go to brand. They are a bit more expensive than Noga, however the difference is minimal. As for indicators, in general I buy Mitutoyos and Tesa (brown & sharpe), never been disappointed so far, either with stands or indicators.
1 micron dials are around 130-150€, so as far as it goes for price - not a huge difference compared to Starrett or any other brand. It's just a matter of preference. I try to avoid Starrett myself, because I had some corrosion issues in the past, with several of their tools, but other than that, they seem to be just fine.
HG dial indicator stands th-cam.com/video/AMGhNXaliUQ/w-d-xo.html
There's not much about them on youtube - they're quite a small company, but really, highest possible quality stands. And I don't like German tools of late. I have some dial indicators from 50's from the old DDR which work flawlessly, but newer stuff from there.. Just naaah.
Hello there KEITH RUCKER Esq
Al the best for Your 2016
Nice intro to basic selection of these "clock Guages" - as they AKA !!!
Well presented and like always - something we can garner good info from.
Thanks a stack and keep 'em rolling
aRM
+aR M Thank you for watching!
I teach high school machine shop and I agree on buying import indicators. I also purchase import calipers and micrometers for the kids at school. Simply because these precision tools are basically disposable with students. And it makes little difference weather they drop a Starrett dial caliper or an Enco. Once it is dropped it is junk and I would rather throw out a $35.00 caliper rather than a $135.00 caliper.
Thanks!
Mike
+Junk Mikes World I could not agree more for a school shop class. But in my shop, I like to have quality tools that I can depend on. I have bought junk too many times and had to go back and buy it again. But there is indeed a time and place for the import stuff.
Hi Keith,
I'm a member of your site and OWWM as well. I've been wanting to get a dial indicator to check the arbor runout on my unisaw. I wrote down the Starrett model you have in the video. Low and behold, I bought one locally today on craigslist for $45. It's an older one with the L.S. Starrett logo. My only issue is the dial glass falls out and it doesn't always go back to zero. i can tighten the thumbscrew after i zero but sometimes the dial hand doesn't go return to zero. I can tap the front and then it will. Any thoughts ?
Thanks,
tommitytomtom
+Tom Jenkins Tom, as for the indicator not returning to zero each time, it is probably because the spring in the indicator is getting week. Just put a load on the indicator so that it is not going back to where there is no pressure on it. You can rotate the dial and make zero anywhere you want it to be. I suspect that your indicator would be a good candidate for being rebuilt - they would also put a new crystal on it at the same time which will take care of the glass falling out. You can send it off to many places to get re-built, including back to the factory at Starrett or one of the many independent companies like Long Island Indicator.
Keith you really should mention the better resolution of metric indicators. 1/1000 inch = .025mm and the markings on a metric indicator are .01mm, better even than your indicator with half thousandth markings.
+desmondwaterstone But finer resolution on an indicator starts getting to a point of diminishing returns at some point. When you start getting down to 1/1000 of an inch, you will drive yourself crazy trying to get something set that fine and unless you are making parts for the Hubble Telescope or something, you don't need accuracy to that level. I have a couple of tenths indicators but I rarely use them as I usually don't need to measure to that level. So, I don't know that I would call a metric indicator better, just measuring at different increments.
It would have been nice to see the two types (plunger and lever) being used.
Hi Keith, great video! Have you had any experience using a Jam/shock proof indicator? I was playing with a Dorsey one at IMTS and was blown away.
Well, at least you are aware of it. From there, you can only go better!
This video has come in just the right time. All the stuff I do is just hobby. I've been using a square as a indicator. I had a bunch of runout on my drill press and when I see that the square was flush with the chuck, I called it square. Now I'm looking at indicators. Thanks Keith for the video.
+Thomas A Sprouse The indicator is a must have tool in the machine shop and once you have one, you will find all kinds of uses for it!
Nice vid Keith. One question that I had, could you use that cheap snake holder for different application? For example a flashlight holder. Or mount a magnet on the end for a small parts holder?
+mcpheonixx A flashlight holder might well be worth using it for. Good idea!
Hello Keith,
Very interesting video and nice that you also showed a metric dial indicator for the outsiders like me. Even that I don't do much with a laid or that kind of things I maybe go buy also an dial indicator. Always handy for precision measurements with all kind of things.
Again as always a good video and looking forward to the next one !
Many greetings from Roel !
+RoelTyros Thanks for watching and commenting. It is amazing how often I drag my dial indicators into the wood shop since I have them. They are very useful for a lot of things!
Hi Keith Love you videos ! Just what to mention there is a Starrett Last Word indicator model # 711 that reads down to .0005.Keep them coming love your new shop!
+Roger Brousseau Yes, you are correct - I don't have that model though....
I'm an auto tech that discovered machining thanks to you tube. Thanks for this instructional video. Hop e you will make more along these lines as well as your usuals. It looks like Starrett is the Snap On of the machine world.
+eldoradony Thanks for the feedback! I will try and throw some more of these types of videos in from time to time.