Undoubtedly one of the most intelligent and enlightening TH-cam music channel by far. I am personally expecting more videos about Sweelinck and maybe also some about organums from Perotinus Magister...
I wish the good people at the Cantorum would gather around and give a little demo. It might have been good, or hilariously disastrous, but definitely entertaining!
How fascinating. Wouldnt it be wonderful to experience with simple yet more contemporary musical ideas. Perhaps something around a pentatonic scale for example.
Wonderful episode. I had the good fortune to have begun my music education and training in a proper boy choir (patterned upon the Vienna Boys Choir and English boy choirs). While I don't recall daily sessions of Cantare super librum, we certainly were taught about it. Thanks so much for creating this video!
That the rise of Western polyphony owes itself to improvisation also points to what it owes to choral ensembles of men and boys. That gender and age matter here is suggested by the quote here from Johannes Tinctoris: "I have known not even one man who has achieved eminent or noble rank among musicians if he began to compose or sing super librum at or above his 20th year of age". What about gender? Here's a quote from Florida State University psychologist Roy F. Baumeister from his talk, "Is There Anything Good About Men?" (easily found online). QUOTE Creativity may be another example of gender difference in motivation rather than ability. The evidence presents a seeming paradox, because the tests of creativity generally show men and women scoring about the same, yet through history some men have been much more creative than women. An explanation that fits this pattern is that men and women have the same creative ability but different motivations. I am a musician, and I’ve long wondered about this difference. We know from the classical music scene that women can play instruments beautifully, superbly, proficiently - essentially just as well as men. They can and many do. Yet in jazz, where the performer has to be creative while playing, there is a stunning imbalance: hardly any women improvise. Why? The ability is there but perhaps the motivation is less. They don’t feel driven to do it. I suppose the stock explanation for any such difference is that women were not encouraged, or were not appreciated, or were discouraged from being creative. But I don’t think this stock explanation fits the facts very well. In the 19th century in America, middle-class girls and women played piano far more than men. Yet all that piano playing failed to result in any creative output. There were no great women composers, no new directions in style of music or how to play, or anything like that. All those female pianists entertained their families and their dinner guests but did not seem motivated to create anything new. Meanwhile, at about the same time, black men in America created blues and then jazz, both of which changed the way the world experiences music. By any measure, those black men, mostly just emerging from slavery, were far more disadvantaged than the middle-class white women. Even getting their hands on a musical instrument must have been considerably harder. And remember, I’m saying that the creative abilities are probably about equal. But somehow the men were driven to create something new, more than the women. UNQUOTE It astounds me that the early music world has been uniformly silent as centuries-old foundations in the UK -- with a direct historical continuity to Western music's utterly unique polyphonic Big Bang -- are vandalized and converted to mixed-voice groups -- just in the last few years, St John's, Christ Church, Chichester, Magdalen, St Paul's, St George's, New College, and on and on. (German-speaking Europe, so far, seems to resist the trend.) Presumably this means more work for the UK's professional women choral singers, who, in the future, will find few men to join them, as would-be choirboys, quite understandably, are getting the message that they're yesterday's chopped liver. (Current TH-cams of UK cathedral choirs show the top lines as overwhelmingly female.) Of course, of course -- everyone should be encouraged to sing, and the largest bulk of recordings and performances of Renaissance repertoire are now by mixed-voice ensembles. But must every traditional choir be put to pasture? In the UK, college, church, and crown -- and the Early Music crowd -- seem to think so. Listen to the former New College choir sing Couperin or Purcell or the former Christ Church sing the Eton Choirbook or the former King's College sing Tallis or Tye and rue what is now lost forever.
You always use one of the best techniques in teaching, every video of yours that I have seen: You listen to your listeners as you talk to them. That is, you very well imagine how they are taking what you say, as you say it. That leads you to a very good plan in explaining, always so very well organized, always leading your watchers and listeners in just the right direction at just the right pace. Bravi tutti! Molto grazie! Plus, there is a lot of work in getting to know the early sources in their various languages, gauging what is more important and what is less. It is as Brahms said: It is easy enough to compose, but wonderfully hard to know what to let fall under the table. Thank you again! What good teaching!
It looks like Thomas Morley never heard improvised counterpoint (in Protestant England), so has the opinion someone (me for example) would have when hearing about it. He needed to see this video! Incidentally, earlier 16th century music in England has a lot of composed music with the Cantus firmus in regular notes just like in this video, and it’s amazing.
Such great learning with such great pleasure Elam. You are blessed of The Most High. Gorgeous singing examples; you make what were once esoteric concepts spring to life with simplicity and understanding. Blessings unto you and to your family. I regard you as my teacher.
I cannot describe how much I love your channel and videos! Thank you so much for your brilliant work and giving us all of this fascinating insight with high quality editing and plethoras of visual and audio examples - for FREE!
I learned this way. That’s why i speak about improvisation for composers a lot on my channel . Most musicians and teachers don’t know how learning musict truly works, and this video gives a better insight on this. Great video
As always, it is wonderful to see the notification of a new video from this channel. Thank you so much for the amount information in such a beautiful presentation
Fascinating video as always. I was taught counterpoint by a teacher trained in France, and we always wrote exercises with 1, 2, or 4, notes atop a fixed cantus firmus. The comment that musical tastes in France lagged behind the rest of Europe makes a lot of sense now!
This the beginning of jazz , Barber Shop Quartet, Doo Wop, not to forget GOSPEL singing in the US. And those genres are the ones that just pop into my head now!
I just noticed, relistening, that at 10:10 the bass clef voice sings a B-natural, rather than the B-flat that is notated. There is a good reason: the middle voice has a B-natural the message before, and a B-flat after would make a cross relation.
Practically, improvising counterpoints on a given melody. Might be interesting to recover this practice as a teaching/learning tool for budding composers.
Yes, it would -- although, to learn the technique properly, the composition students would probably need to do something like what was done centuries ago: spend at least a year doing it every single day, with multiple services on most days, and lessons in between. I have a hard time believing that most composition students today would be willing to devote a year to doing only that.
@@mwnyc3976 There's lots of things you have to endure if you want to properly learn the craft, and I don't think adding that would be that much harder than having to do your "obbligato" combinations (i.e.: "Cantus Firmus" in Semibreves, one voice in Minims, one in Quavers and one in suspensions) for months at an end. It might even be less arid, a bit of fresh air time by time.
much of this is very relevant to the most modern works of microtonal music. Obvs, the strict rules of the 15th century no longer apply (what is a tenth in 11-limit JI harmony anyway?). But the methods of construction, bringing order out of the vast see of harmonious tonal possibility, seem especially relevant to the task of producing a natural sounding and harmonious music out of advanced musical concepts. thank you so much
Nice episode, keep spreading the word on improvised counterpoint ! I'd say that "cantare super librum", which is what Tinctoris says "absolute counterpoint" is called "vulgariter" might actually be a latin translation of the French rather than the other way around. The same may be true for the companion term "resfacta", as Machaut already calls a writing poetry or music "faire chose". When we think about the curriculum of choirboys, there is documentary evidence that extempore counterpoint sometimes in some places was taught the same time as figural music or even before, as it was a skill they needed to participate in the liturgy. They needed to sing for their supper.
A really good vidéo, very instructive like always ^^ ! maybe the best channel about early music of all TH-cam. Also a tip for people who can be interested in this : you can had a 4th voice (altus/contra voice) in the faux bourdon in 6th and 5th/3rd, the altus alternating between 4th above the CF (if the bassus do a 5th bellow the CF) and 3rd (if the bassus do also a 3rd bellow the CF). It's a really good technique you can also use in personnal composition ;)
uah! molto interessante! Improvising Always like to people before dixyland jazz and after all the ancient work song all around the world and centurys... pardon my english, i m italian... ave atque vale! from Augusta Praetoria Taurinorum, in Gallia Cisalpina Provincia! 🏛️🏛️🏛️🐻👍👍👍💥🇮🇹
I always look forward to a new video coming out. In my few moments that I have to myself, this channel will always provide me with a nice intellectual diversion from my usual life. I don't know if you can answer this, but do you know if a similar practice of cantare super librum occurred in the eastern churches, particularly at Constantinople or in those places of Christianity which were under the Moslem yoke? I know Byzantine theory is very different from that of what developed in Western Europe but considering all of the contact particularly between Venice, Genoa and the Eastern Roman Empire, I wonder if any of these elements of cantare super librum was even imported into the Eastern liturgical rites.
I believe Georgian sacred music is basically singing super librum, although I'm pretty sure that the practice developed locally and wasn't imported from elsewhere in the Christian world.
Well perhaps one could say that nowdays jazz status as improvisation music has indirect roots in this practice. It is pity that the improvisation has not survived in classical music, or is there perhaps a chance somehow to restore it?
I learned this way. That’s why i speak about improvisation for composers a lot on my channel . Most musicians and teachers don’t know how learning musict truly works, and this video gives a better insight on this. Great video
History of this sacred music: The Stabat Mater is a 13th-century Christian hymn to Mary, which portrays her suffering as Jesus Christ's mother during his crucifixion. Its author may be either the Franciscan friar Jacopone da Todi or Pope Innocent III.[1][2][3] The title comes from its first line, Stabat Mater dolorosa, which means "the sorrowful mother was standing". From Wikipedia
Thank you for another spectacular video. I learned ao much. I wonder, as AI technology improves, whether we could get even a more accurate sense of what this sounded like. For now, this phenomenal video gives us a very reasonable idea. Thanks again for this wonderful channel.
Love your videos - I was wondering if you might be interested in making a video about books one might read to learn about early music - when one searches there are so many available that it's difficult to know where to start and what books are of sufficient quality.
I am a musicology student and we were advised to read 'Renaissance music' by Alan Atlas - very easy to digest, written with a very simple language, covering various topics :)
Lovely video, thank you so much for this! All the work that you put into your videos always fascinates me! Just the tiniest bit of mistake in footnote 16: it's Brian Trowell, not Towell :)
Oh cool…note I know what they called it way back! I was dreaming about doing this in one of my nightmares last night. There were monsters being thrown at us and I started singing some chant and the other dude started singing the same note so I thought, move to the 5th.
Man, I don't have words to say how wonderful this channel is. The notification bell is always ON. I never miss a single video. Thank you so much!!
Undoubtedly one of the most intelligent and enlightening TH-cam music channel by far. I am personally expecting more videos about Sweelinck and maybe also some about organums from Perotinus Magister...
I couldn't say more than that... Thank you so mutch!
Agree.
It's amazing to know how harmonization was created back in old times.
Barbershop singers will actually do something similar to this - they call it “woodshedding”
I wish the good people at the Cantorum would gather around and give a little demo. It might have been good, or hilariously disastrous, but definitely entertaining!
Je recommande "Chanter sur le livre: Manuel pratique d’improvisation polyphonique de la Renaissance" par Barnabé Janin. Merci pour cette video!
A team of major talents delivers Elam’s genius once again.
How fascinating. Wouldnt it be wonderful to experience with simple yet more contemporary musical ideas. Perhaps something around a pentatonic scale for example.
Wonderful episode. I had the good fortune to have begun my music education and training in a proper boy choir (patterned upon the Vienna Boys Choir and English boy choirs). While I don't recall daily sessions of Cantare super librum, we certainly were taught about it. Thanks so much for creating this video!
That the rise of Western polyphony owes itself to improvisation also points to what it owes to choral ensembles of men and boys.
That gender and age matter here is suggested by the quote here from Johannes Tinctoris: "I have known not even one man who has achieved eminent or noble rank among musicians if he began to compose or sing super librum at or above his 20th year of age".
What about gender? Here's a quote from Florida State University psychologist Roy F. Baumeister from his talk, "Is There Anything Good About Men?" (easily found online).
QUOTE
Creativity may be another example of gender difference in motivation rather than ability. The evidence presents a seeming paradox, because the tests of creativity generally show men and women scoring about the same, yet through history some men have been much more creative than women. An explanation that fits this pattern is that men and women have the same creative ability but different motivations.
I am a musician, and I’ve long wondered about this difference. We know from the classical music scene that women can play instruments beautifully, superbly, proficiently - essentially just as well as men. They can and many do. Yet in jazz, where the performer has to be creative while playing, there is a stunning imbalance: hardly any women improvise. Why? The ability is there but perhaps the motivation is less. They don’t feel driven to do it.
I suppose the stock explanation for any such difference is that women were not encouraged, or were not appreciated, or were discouraged from being creative. But I don’t think this stock explanation fits the facts very well. In the 19th century in America, middle-class girls and women played piano far more than men. Yet all that piano playing failed to result in any creative output. There were no great women composers, no new directions in style of music or how to play, or anything like that. All those female pianists entertained their families and their dinner guests but did not seem motivated to create anything new.
Meanwhile, at about the same time, black men in America created blues and then jazz, both of which changed the way the world experiences music. By any measure, those black men, mostly just emerging from slavery, were far more disadvantaged than the middle-class white women. Even getting their hands on a musical instrument must have been considerably harder. And remember, I’m saying that the creative abilities are probably about equal. But somehow the men were driven to create something new, more than the women.
UNQUOTE
It astounds me that the early music world has been uniformly silent as centuries-old foundations in the UK -- with a direct historical continuity to Western music's utterly unique polyphonic Big Bang -- are vandalized and converted to mixed-voice groups -- just in the last few years, St John's, Christ Church, Chichester, Magdalen, St Paul's, St George's, New College, and on and on. (German-speaking Europe, so far, seems to resist the trend.)
Presumably this means more work for the UK's professional women choral singers, who, in the future, will find few men to join them, as would-be choirboys, quite understandably, are getting the message that they're yesterday's chopped liver. (Current TH-cams of UK cathedral choirs show the top lines as overwhelmingly female.)
Of course, of course -- everyone should be encouraged to sing, and the largest bulk of recordings and performances of Renaissance repertoire are now by mixed-voice ensembles. But must every traditional choir be put to pasture? In the UK, college, church, and crown -- and the Early Music crowd -- seem to think so.
Listen to the former New College choir sing Couperin or Purcell or the former Christ Church sing the Eton Choirbook or the former King's College sing Tallis or Tye and rue what is now lost forever.
You always use one of the best techniques in teaching, every video of yours that I have seen: You listen to your listeners as you talk to them. That is, you very well imagine how they are taking what you say, as you say it. That leads you to a very good plan in explaining, always so very well organized, always leading your watchers and listeners in just the right direction at just the right pace. Bravi tutti! Molto grazie! Plus, there is a lot of work in getting to know the early sources in their various languages, gauging what is more important and what is less. It is as Brahms said: It is easy enough to compose, but wonderfully hard to know what to let fall under the table. Thank you again! What good teaching!
That's one reason why I recommend this channel to my students as one of the best ever.
Thank you SO SO MUCH !!
It looks like Thomas Morley never heard improvised counterpoint (in Protestant England), so has the opinion someone (me for example) would have when hearing about it. He needed to see this video!
Incidentally, earlier 16th century music in England has a lot of composed music with the Cantus firmus in regular notes just like in this video, and it’s amazing.
Thank you for fantastic programs!!!
Yes. even by your very high standards, this is exceptionally good: takes a difficult but really interesting topic and makes it accessible.
Such great learning with such great pleasure Elam. You are blessed of The Most High.
Gorgeous singing examples; you make what were once esoteric concepts spring to life with simplicity and understanding.
Blessings unto you and to your family. I regard you as my teacher.
I think this will rank as one of my favorite Early Music Sources videos! (Along with the discussion on the use of vibrato : )
The perfect channel for me, can't believe I only found it a few minutes ago
Thank you! one learns so much from your videos. Greetings from Vienna!
I cannot describe how much I love your channel and videos! Thank you so much for your brilliant work and giving us all of this fascinating insight with high quality editing and plethoras of visual and audio examples - for FREE!
Definitely signing up for the Patreon asap
So, Renaissance jazz then? 🎷
I learned this way. That’s why i speak about improvisation for composers a lot on my channel . Most musicians and teachers don’t know how learning musict truly works, and this video gives a better insight on this. Great video
Amazing! Thank you for your great work, looking forward for what comes next.
Enjoying your videos. Great stuff.
Really interesting ! Thank you all for these wonderful videos !
As always, it is wonderful to see the notification of a new video from this channel. Thank you so much for the amount information in such a beautiful presentation
Great channel. I love early music ❤️ and really appreciate the information you share here.
Wonderful video, thoughtful and instructive ! Thank you, Elam & team.
Beautiful! Always excited to click on any new upload from EMS
Fascinating video as always. I was taught counterpoint by a teacher trained in France, and we always wrote exercises with 1, 2, or 4, notes atop a fixed cantus firmus. The comment that musical tastes in France lagged behind the rest of Europe makes a lot of sense now!
That parrot marking the riposta though! :DDD... it actually took me a little to realize
You did it again, a fabulous video full of so much to learn and enjoy. Thank you!
This channel is a wonder! God bless you !
As informative and enjoyable as ever. Toda, Elam & team!
Fascinating as always. Thanks for the video.
By the way, saw you in Utrecht during the early music festival. Had a blast. Cheers.
The examples sounded beautiful..
This the beginning of jazz , Barber Shop Quartet, Doo Wop, not to forget GOSPEL singing in the US. And those genres are the ones that just pop into my head now!
That's exactly what I was thinking as I watched this video!
Fascinating... and hilarious. Thanks.
I just noticed, relistening, that at 10:10 the bass clef voice sings a B-natural, rather than the B-flat that is notated. There is a good reason: the middle voice has a B-natural the message before, and a B-flat after would make a cross relation.
Wie cool! Da ist endlich ein langersehntes Video. Vielen Dank, lieber Elam!!
amazing. this confirms a lot of my convictions. thanks a lot
Fascinating, thank you!
Thanks so much for the channel. I'm gonna get me some merch for a Christmas present to say thanks.
Bravo!
muchas gracias por tan bello trabajo
BRAVO, BRAVI. GRAZIE
Thank you very much for this video! Please go on this way, it's a very interesting subject.
Practically, improvising counterpoints on a given melody. Might be interesting to recover this practice as a teaching/learning tool for budding composers.
Yes, it would -- although, to learn the technique properly, the composition students would probably need to do something like what was done centuries ago: spend at least a year doing it every single day, with multiple services on most days, and lessons in between.
I have a hard time believing that most composition students today would be willing to devote a year to doing only that.
@@mwnyc3976 There's lots of things you have to endure if you want to properly learn the craft, and I don't think adding that would be that much harder than having to do your "obbligato" combinations (i.e.: "Cantus Firmus" in Semibreves, one voice in Minims, one in Quavers and one in suspensions) for months at an end. It might even be less arid, a bit of fresh air time by time.
@@TenorCantusFirmus
They make students do species counterpoint for months on end, even now?
@@mwnyc3976 Here in Italy, yes - And I have to say, I actually find it to still be useful.
An excellent explanation of this for us today not easy understadible practice!
fascinating subject; excellent discussion. thank you!
Excellent!
much of this is very relevant to the most modern works of microtonal music. Obvs, the strict rules of the 15th century no longer apply (what is a tenth in 11-limit JI harmony anyway?). But the methods of construction, bringing order out of the vast see of harmonious tonal possibility, seem especially relevant to the task of producing a natural sounding and harmonious music out of advanced musical concepts. thank you so much
Cool information! Thanks...these days can I get away by calling it "Extemporaneous Riffing"?!
Fantastic!
Thanks for this amazing and instructive episode!
Brilliant
Thanks for uploading this amazing material!
Beautiful
Nice episode, keep spreading the word on improvised counterpoint ! I'd say that "cantare super librum", which is what Tinctoris says "absolute counterpoint" is called "vulgariter" might actually be a latin translation of the French rather than the other way around. The same may be true for the companion term "resfacta", as Machaut already calls a writing poetry or music "faire chose". When we think about the curriculum of choirboys, there is documentary evidence that extempore counterpoint sometimes in some places was taught the same time as figural music or even before, as it was a skill they needed to participate in the liturgy. They needed to sing for their supper.
Fabulous episode, for me as a singer!
A really good vidéo, very instructive like always ^^ ! maybe the best channel about early music of all TH-cam.
Also a tip for people who can be interested in this : you can had a 4th voice (altus/contra voice) in the faux bourdon in 6th and 5th/3rd, the altus alternating between 4th above the CF (if the bassus do a 5th bellow the CF) and 3rd (if the bassus do also a 3rd bellow the CF). It's a really good technique you can also use in personnal composition ;)
👍👊💛
Will the Q&A video ever come out?
uah! molto interessante! Improvising Always like to people before dixyland jazz and after all the ancient work song all around the world and centurys... pardon my english, i m italian... ave atque vale! from Augusta Praetoria Taurinorum, in Gallia Cisalpina Provincia! 🏛️🏛️🏛️🐻👍👍👍💥🇮🇹
I always look forward to a new video coming out. In my few moments that I have to myself, this channel will always provide me with a nice intellectual diversion from my usual life.
I don't know if you can answer this, but do you know if a similar practice of cantare super librum occurred in the eastern churches, particularly at Constantinople or in those places of Christianity which were under the Moslem yoke? I know Byzantine theory is very different from that of what developed in Western Europe but considering all of the contact particularly between Venice, Genoa and the Eastern Roman Empire, I wonder if any of these elements of cantare super librum was even imported into the Eastern liturgical rites.
I believe Georgian sacred music is basically singing super librum, although I'm pretty sure that the practice developed locally and wasn't imported from elsewhere in the Christian world.
Hey, dachte ich, der eine Sänger klingt wie Ivo Haun
This was very informative!!
Well perhaps one could say that nowdays jazz status as improvisation music has indirect roots in this practice. It is pity that the improvisation has not survived in classical music, or is there perhaps a chance somehow to restore it?
I learned this way. That’s why i speak about improvisation for composers a lot on my channel . Most musicians and teachers don’t know how learning musict truly works, and this video gives a better insight on this. Great video
History of this sacred music:
The Stabat Mater is a 13th-century Christian hymn to Mary, which portrays her suffering as Jesus Christ's mother during his crucifixion. Its author may be either the Franciscan friar Jacopone da Todi or Pope Innocent III.[1][2][3] The title comes from its first line, Stabat Mater dolorosa, which means "the sorrowful mother was standing".
From Wikipedia
ps : in italian if we reverse your name we have Male... it means evil or deseas... uah! Elam, Male, your video are so good! 😄😄😄👍👍👍
Lol
Thank you for another spectacular video. I learned ao much. I wonder, as AI technology improves, whether we could get even a more accurate sense of what this sounded like. For now, this phenomenal video gives us a very reasonable idea. Thanks again for this wonderful channel.
Love your videos - I was wondering if you might be interested in making a video about books one might read to learn about early music - when one searches there are so many available that it's difficult to know where to start and what books are of sufficient quality.
I am a musicology student and we were advised to read 'Renaissance music' by Alan Atlas - very easy to digest, written with a very simple language, covering various topics :)
Lovely video, thank you so much for this! All the work that you put into your videos always fascinates me! Just the tiniest bit of mistake in footnote 16: it's Brian Trowell, not Towell :)
Re "beyond the twentieth year" - thank you, Monsieur Tinctoris, for your demotivationg words. Not.
This practice seems superhuman, until I think of the jazz improvisations over song book standards or known changes.
"France, where musical taste has always been somewhat backwards..." kekekeke :D
One day i'll recover all the new videos but today is not that day
I thought your pronunciation of Latin and Italian was unusually good for an English speaker, it says Switzerland on your about page, that makes sense.
Elam is based in Basel now, but he is Israeli.
Species 1 2 and the like
5:51
10:03
11:00
I shared
Oh cool…note I know what they called it way back! I was dreaming about doing this in one of my nightmares last night. There were monsters being thrown at us and I started singing some chant and the other dude started singing the same note so I thought, move to the 5th.
oh. From the title I expected a film in latin. Nerd me.
Thank you! I like everything but the thumbnail.
Like a jacob collier concert
Maneki neko(?) super porcus? Almost literal pig-Latin ...
While singers today have to study for exams in gender studies
Why did you put a black man in the thumbnail?