LS Reacts to Caedrel's Thoughts on His Champion Tierlist for Pro Play
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#LS #Caedrel #Tierlist #Proplay #LeagueofLegends #Clips #Highlights - บันเทิง
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Now we just need Caedral reacting to LS reacting to Caedral’s reaction to LS’s tier list.
Nah he's good. Last time he got death threats from it.
You're hurting my brain
But what if LS reacts to Caedrels reaction to his reaction to Caedrels reaction to his tier list?
Yeah and vice versa
Inception
This is why I feel like tier lists need to start walking away from letter tiers and just writing what each tier means. S tier means different things to different people so it’s just good to have that ambiguity cleared up front. It’d certainly mitigate the “is this S tier in a blindable setting or is it referring to power level relative to other champions” mixup happening here.
🤓🤓
i agree ! very good point
i feel like its pretty self evident that the tier lists are relative to the rest of the tierlist. You could call Gangplank "Ommbungo Superwhiffle" tier and have absolutely no idea what that means, but because its at the top on its own i dont need the definition of the word. Or like how film critics will give something a 5/10, a lot of people will think that means its terrible because theyre relating the number to review score sites/critics that give everything 7 8 or 9s, but if you know the rest of that critic's ratings then you know what they mean by a 5/10 to literally mean its average, and in a tierlist the relativity is front and centre and you have to either be stupid or dishonest to not understand how that works. Change ALL the letters of the tierlist to G K U V P L and its still comprehensible if you have more than 1iq to see "thing on top better than thing below", maybe more than 2iq if you understand these are in a vacuum and you cant just pick Gangplank 1st pick and expect to autowin with teemo jg, rammus mid, ivern adc, and riven support
We need a tierlist the way Coney does it LMAO
Especially in league where a champion in s tier could be beaten by a champion in B tier.
caedrel reacts to ls reacting to caedrel reacting to ls incoming
I’m just happy we have people like you and caedrel talking about these things
Reaction on a reaction peak yt content
Truly a TH-cam moment
cant wait for follow up reaction from iwilldominate to this reaction
Hope you and Caedrel do a tier list next time so you can brainstorm with it
Love that both of you are very reasonable and understanding towards each other, much better than the drama xD
send this to caedral
Somebody should make a website where he can make these tier list and whenever there is a controversial placing you can click on the champion portrait and you get audio clip where he talks about it why he put them there
Lol kinda saw this coming. Might have just been a better idea to actually have a conversation about this although I know that takes time and you guys are constantly busy and I understand this is likely to do better than that video so I dont fault anyone for it.
nothing bad happened, why should they have talked i dont understand
@@lmao4982 Would have just been a more convenient to watch video - not a necessity but would have been nice.
@@TmSpeedy0407 Yeah and also they don't play telephone with reasons why certain champs are played. Definitely would have been more informative on both sides train of thought and would keep each other from guessing reasonings.
@@lmao4982 ceadrel completely misunderstood the tier list what you mean
I think las needs to define what tier means first because if you out something s tier that only works in like super specific scenarios (and then yes it’s broken) it’s not a tier for lost people, s tier for most people means is op in most situations, can always be picked
It’s almost like he’s just reacting to everything out of context and not actually watching his video lol
Should make a tier list for blindable/op champs and keep it different from a counterpick/niche picks
Is Rengar-Ivern more potent when laneswapping to remove toplaner from the game or is the ideal to play 2v2 lane?
Cant wait fo caedrel to react to ls reacting to caedrel reacting yo LS
Personaly love Zoe Draven bot , surprised with how much prio Draven has its not a combo we see.
maybe u can have small icons on the tier list with simple F C B (flex counter blind) so if u look at the videos where they dont watch it fully and only look at the list u can see more context for a example is gragas used to be blind picked for jng then flexed into top or mid if needed so on the tier list it will have been jng gragas S tier with the B icon has u can blind him and in top and mid tier lists he will be maybe changed in tier or stay in S but with the F and or C and same for top and with the F icon (or F in all roles if u can pick them with the idea of one role but that role can be mid top or jng so its a triple flex not just a jng that u can bring mid or top)
lets u get the most impotent ones out the way and make it clearer for the ones that dont watch the reasons for there placements (like vayne and trist top)
Tonights game made the Tier list legit 👌
LS, what I am wondering, is... due to the situationality of many champions, what is the efficacy of practicing/picking them? Won't like half of these things just be unusable due to 2 week patch rotation and one day being only 24 hours? Perhaps I am overestimating how long these champs/combos/matchups take to learn for someone with both high mechanical skill and more than 100 IQ.
Competitive splits play in one patch only, for months, sometimes theyll be playing in 12.3 in a tournament, while the game is already 12.5, this happens in msi, worlds and some regions competitive scene, so player have 1-2 months to practice a strategy/champion, thats why riot usually doesnt do big changes in some patches, cuz if they do and the result are far larger than they expected a champion might be too unfair in a large ammount of time during competitive splits.
LS has a couple of common examples he cites to refute the claim that picking up new champions is difficult for professional (aka paid to play the game for the majority of hours) or time-consuming.
The first is every time a new champion is released, if it even has a hint of professional applications, all pros will spam it and become proficient in a few days. Even if it goes under the radar at first and gets picked up later, you can bet that once it becomes considered strong everyone will play it.
Secondly (and this applies to mid lane most often), there are certain midlaners like Azir, Ryze, etc that are classified as difficult to execute that will sometimes disappear from the meta for months or even seasons, and yet if they ever become good enough again all the midlaners will suddenly be able to play them once more after a few days/weeks.
As for the 2 week patch cycle, as someone else mentioned competitive play tends to lag behind and patches have more staying power, but realistically the individual patch-to-patch changes don't matter in the context of professional play unless the patch significantly hits game systems. Fundamentals are fundamentals and these don't get lost, and the game has been played at the professional level for more or less the same way for years at this point.
Plus with the way different champions/strategies get budgeted power, you don't need to be as proficient to succeed with said strategies. If you need to be extremely precise to win when piloting a combo deck, you might not need nearly as much skill to have the same or better results with a midrange deck in certain matchups.
I think if a champion needs a very specific set up in draft to be played then it should not be higher then b tier. Z, S, and A tier champs IMO should be either blind pickable or good counterpicks into meta champs.
Janna sup hard counters melee supports, fiddlesticks/Karthus/udyr jungle stomp engage and 2v2 jungle meta, vayne top stomps low mobility bruisers and low range comps. They’re there as counters, even if the situation they’re countering isn’t as common, it still makes them very strong when picked in that situation, considering the 13.3 buffs to melee support.
I think ppl have a specific way to play the game and look for champions that fit that ideal instead of changing the way they play from game to game
Yeah, just look at adc getting played as support, people saying "it's not right !".
That's one of the thing i like about dota2, you refer players by their "position" as the carry, because a champion could be played as a support or a carry.
List should be changed to blind pick and counter pick categories as Caedrel said, just helps with the confusion due to lack context for when and where to pick them.
Should have a first pick, need team synergy, and counter pick tier lists
what if 5 teirlists but theyre pick placement ie. 1st pickable -- lastpick etc
Caedrel: wait... let me pop a pill. I need more processing power.
A little more and i can almost hear it!
I see, now instead of normal discussion we get reactions to reactions
I think champion tier lists would be better suited for categories rather than ranked, such as must picks, blind picks, good counters, bad picks etc
As a zoe supp main, if it get played in pro i want them to int their asses off so it gets more buffs
I just realized that he has Rengar in Z tier but Ivern sup in Dont tier
Costream a tier list together?
mhh are supports like xerath and zoe ment to be played with something else than classical adcs? i mean your adc will have pretty low dps compared to the traditional support pairing
MF, Varus, Ez, Cait, Xayah would be good. They have self-peel or poke and utilize her sleep and poke
Edit: Xayah less so for Xerath but you could Kog.
maybe make a champion compass like the political compasses with the y axis as Strength and the x axis as number of viable match ups
The biggest letdown for professional LOL to me is that of the 140 champions, the same 15ish are played almost exclusively. From a open perspective, its outright ridiculous that we just assume champions like Renekton or Azir are still just default best in class champions for 9 straight years. Surely, if you utilized the entire 140 champion spectrum to your advantage you could squeek out a genuinely effective strategy... instead of yet another copy of a copy of a copy of a 2015 SKT T1 draft. Surely someone else could decide to make a statement on how the game should be played for the first time in a freaking decade.
I've seen this pattern before.
Am I the only one who would really appreciate if the volume on the react content was a bit higher? The difference in volume between LS and Caedrel is really big imo
Someone tell me he not eating mustard BK nuggies
"He didnt listen to what i said, which is fine" + "the context is really important"
yeah,,,
There are 2 things you need to balance when making a tier list. It's how many possible situations can the champion be picked in while being best in slot, and then once it is, what impact it can have on the game once it has been picked in that situation. So there might be fewer scenarios to pick Vayne, but if you pick her in one of those and she absolutely takes over a game with the enemy team being able to do literally nothing to stop it, that's still and S tier champion. The situations might be fewER but they're enough to warrant her being up there. And because there's enough of them, and she would fuck everyone up if this happens.
Now LS also said this is a tier list of power levels comparative to the pool of available options, not based on what would actually happen in the current competitive landscape. The list is attempting to be objective in the sense of, if your opponents drafted well, these are the champs which would be the strongest against that. Unfortunately competitive is very stagnant for various structural reasons around the way the esport is conducted so this will most definitely not reflect what will actually be picked in competitive.
it took him 2 sec to spot the renekton lmao
@LS it is really not complicated to just add instructions. Like you can put colors left or right side of tier list which would mean you need to glance for 3 seconds to understand the idea behind esch champ. Which saves 20 minutes of explaination the colours should say something like " green means blind pick viable, blue means counter pick champ, yellow means team comb based champ.....etc"
If vi can build navori sheop
Why isnt Quinn good? You put Jax, Renekton, Fiora in S and Quinn counters all those champs really hard. Similar to Vayne just better
NO DRAMA PogU
i love how ls isn't even surprised caedrel didn't watch the video. it's sad actually. so many people share opinions on things they don't care to watch entirely so they don't even know the basic context of the video. i still like to watch caedrel, no hate. but i bet there are people that have watched caedrel's video and based their opinion on ls's tier list off of that
It wasnt that Caedrel didnt care, he just didnt have time to watch the whole video cause he was costreaming
@@BostonSportsFan1233 like i said. nothing against caedrel here. but i think that's where all the hate on LS comes from - people don't know the context/reasoning, yet they hate on him and his ideas. i'm not a fan of him either, but that's because he tends to be pretty toxic, although he was very reasonable in this video.
At this point how can you even find it hard to understand how LS makes tier lists?
LS’ tier lists are really bad, because he has so many good ideas on how league should be played, yet when he places champions in tiers it tends to be inconsistent due to how overloaded his brain is on ideas on how champions should be played, as well as the other champions surrounding that pick. i love ls because he loves talking about team composition and draft, and this alone makes certain champions in lower tiers better than those in higher tiers, which makes tier lists completely irrelevant. people need to talk to LS to completely understand why his tier list is as such.
I am going to be honest, I agree with Caedrel more. A champion should be ranked by what it provides to the team both in draft and in game. This is why I think a vayne top, that can only ever r5-ed on reside should be lower on the list than Renekton, that can be first rotated and used as a counterpick.
Also I disagree, vayne is an F tier toplaner, you can't ever pick her. In the current meta, she needs to run clense because of jungle pool, so she can't take tp or ghost. She also gets dove effortlessly by beefy top/junglers that are played, especially with midlaners starting to have global ults again. One good gank and it's game over for that vayne.
Reactception!
I used to play xerath mid but switched to playing him support cause xerath is dogshit mid cause he can't roam or help jg till mythic
and even with mythic he can't do much in river and all his damage can be dodged lol, so you're praying to land spells otherwise you might as well have been afk
@ShubhoD ik that's why I switched to playing him support. Adcs can't reach xerath unless the xerath is a potato and positions wrong
janna can be broken in the current patch, mostly all games in each region have dive champs and janna mitigates that on her ult
The entire concept of this tierlist makes absolutely no sence at all. If Vayne is the strongest champion in the game in 1% of cases and completely unpickable in 99% of scenarios, that doesn't make her an S tier champion. A strong champion is strong because they can reliably impact the game through their strengths in the most amount of scenarious while leaving the oponent the least amount of room for counterplay or punish
I honestly hate that people dont take the time to listen to reasoning and instead just look at the pretty pictures. Says a lot about society rn tbh
LS has my entire champ pool for support in DONT tier (syndra, urgot, Camille, ivern, cho, liss, vex )
I just dont understand why hes so against blind picking these top laners that are legit 4 flex champs… like sure if u lock karma and they go cam ur gonna loose but also just flex it to any of the other roles and now u have blind pick again? Oh wait pro players cant flex champions apparently
If he didn't listen to all the reasonings then he's not being charitable to you
why react to a video and say, "im not gonna listen to it"
because he was mid co-stream as ls was when reacted to his reaction and time is limited
its 40 mins bro
i genuinly dont understand why Caedrel would react to a tierlist on a patch note that he has barely no info about, without even listenning to the explanation; like whats the point of doing that?
Someone tell Thebausffs that sion is the best top laner 😅
This entire video is Caedrel not listening to the context OR having read the patch notes. Really weird that he wouldn't do either of these things but still made the reaction video.
Its literally a clip from his stream
He didnt "make" the reaction video, he literally judt watched this on stream.
even without audio context, the tierlist itself is the context because its relating how 1 champion performs *in general* to other champions
the competitive list that isnt made for competitive xd
Crownie putting lucian in dont tier
Pick it anyway vs g2
Went 3-0 in laning
Lose anyway
Well..
Probably people around him, especially coaches, told him to pick it.
@@cat-vv9xb i mean ye ofc, its a meta pick (doesnt mean its good, as i also think hes too short range and doesn't deal damage to tanks), just think its kinda funny when your tier list says 'dont'
And by now he/ his team pick lucian again vs vit, went 7/1, lose 1 fight then the game
they're still playing on 13.1, not 13.1b. Lucian/Nami gets nerfed a decent amount by 13.3, and the meta shifts too with all the other champion changes.
Frankly S Tier should exclusively be champs that can be picked in any situation imo
I mean Z tier had GP, Tristana and Udyr, which are all incredibly fine blind, thats where all the uber universal strong picks go.
Tier lists are such a meme dude. No one should ever take a tier list seriously. Letter rating just doesn’t mean anything because everything is so situational with champions
Just because pro players play controlled doesn't mean Zoe can't create chaos. She has so much utility and only needs like 1-2 items to start decking people
Yeah but also if you make a "tierlist for pro play". It should specificly be tailored for pro play. Your ideas should come second hand. So you could just section the video up or have a seperate videos for ideas of what's op but "only if". If your concerned about pro players then say that in the first 15 seconds of the video, and do quick sections on what is situationally really good but requieres specific knowlegde/skill on something or very specific counter picks. And one hidden op champ in each role or something idk.
I think this kind of tierlist is good for content and some debate maybe, but for real you can't put shit like twitch support in A tier and expect anyone to take it seriously. Take today's T1 vs NS game 2, T1 picks twitch support and they seem to execute their gameplan reasonably well ganking multiples lanes with twitch - and proceed to get completely shitstomped by a team a few tiers below them by virtue of playing basically 4 v 5 after the first 10 minutes (I think there was another T1's game with twitch before, and went simillarly). I think most of the 'situational' picks on that tierlist would end up similarly - cool idea, but probably makes you lose even to an opponent way weaker than you, while literally anything else would end up winning.
if you're an idiot that doesnt understand context and that pro players arent all omnipotent beings capable of playing champions to their full potential and so see someone lose on a high grade pick and determine the champion is bottom of the barrel, sure
I think he said that the way LCK played twitch was incorrect or something like that
beryl has zero clue playing twitch support
@@iwillreku3206 He typically says that as an excuse. Did the same in LCS when people played enchanters like sona/janna a lot more. The reality is twitch support was useless when behind whereas other supports offer something when behind. Twitch support lost so much in terms of warding and CC/peel for the team.
Probably the worst thing is that the tierlist is based on a patch that he is unfamiliar with, yet still has opinions he thinks are valuable anyway. For all he knows Amumu jungle could have all his abilities disabled and he's confused why he would be in Dont Tier
I agree with alot of what ls says to preface this, but this is a brain Rot comment you have no idea what tf your talking about or who your talking about
LS should never be taken seriously until he realizes that five humans play league of legends.
JayTiller should never be taken seriously until he realizes that LS and Caedrel agree on most things in league
@@Nao-pj7mc Not really based on Caedrel co-stream and takes. He just says he does because last time he got a ton of death threats including his GF.
@@Nao-pj7mc they agree mostly on power levels but disagree a lot on how the game works and how you should play it.