Certainly an interesting subject, I haven't researched it much or spoken with anyone within the industry regarding this. I tend to stay out of boost completely in my STI if I'm in 6th gear as it gets bogged down and I've always heard it's not great for the engine, which kinda makes sense considering how much of a torque disadvantage it's at due to the gearing. One of those things like changing your oil at 1,000 miles on the odometer and break-in procedures that's debated from an anecdotal standpoint but rarely seems to be great data on. I'll try to keep the question in mind next time I'm around someone who understands this field better.
+Engineering Explained Thanks for your insight Jason! Based off the comments I figured this topic had a split consensus but yeah I'd love to learn more about this in the future from someone that knows more about it.
Engineering Explained there’s going to be a new oil standard this year upgrading API SN to SN+ Amsoil put a lot of research into developing new formulas to fight off LSPI.
^Finally some one with common sense! This is not an issues or a flaw. Its just how it works, if the car was a Turbo with automatic transmission the computer will down shift it to accelerate and handle the comanded boost.
+f15ms6 that's not "how it works" on most turbo 4 bangers from Japan and none from Europe. Stop being in denial that Ford ecoboost has everything figured out about turbo cars.
+f15ms6 that's not "how it works" on most turbo 4 bangers from Japan and none from Europe. Stop being in denial that Ford ecoboost has everything figured out about turbo cars.
LSPI is still an area that's being heavily researched. The EcoBoost engine is robust and has been designed to help mitigate the failings of Mazda's DISI. That said, serious knocking can still occur. My suggestions are: (1) get a tune, (2) change shifting habits, (3) keep and eye and feel for your vehicle. This is all we can really do until engine designs improve.
I know this is very old and don't know if you'll ever see this comment, but how would a tune help?... I'm asking because I'm considering buying a fiesta/focus ST with ecoboost engine.
@@twistedsanity623 Old thread for sure. To answer your question first: even though your foot is to the floor, the throttle is *not actually 100% open* (ECU-limited). A good tune can ensure the throttle isn't overextended in low RPM ranges (pre-5500rpm). This will help reduce engine load, which helps mitigate LSPI. I can't add a source for the following because it's been a while, but I recall reports in ~2015/2016 that (1) even the stock tune had a slightly more aggressive low-RPM throttle that increased risk (they are quick little cars) and (2) aftermarket tuners were still learning about the behavior of these engines and subsequently blew several up due to reducing throttle restrictions in the wrong parts of the power band. All part of the learning process. Now that Ford is packing 3-cylinder ecoboost engines into cars nowadays like the Bronco Sport, you might be in a safer position now with a stock configuration. Will leave that up to you though. Good luck!
It's funny because when I test drove a 13 Focus ST the dealer told me to do this exact thing. He said, "put it into 6th and gun it" when I did it didn't get much power and he sounded like he'd never even tried it before. Thanks for this thread I'll avoid this in my 16.
i got 102k miles on my Focus ST and i did plenty full throttle pull in 6th gear and my engine is fine. Ford has been doing turbo cars in Europe since the 70's not sure why only Americans blowing up Engines
As a AME i have a lot of experience and knowledge in this subject. To make this issue more clear there is a difference between "pre-ignition" and detonation. Pre-ignition will occur when there is a local hotspot within the cylinder that is igniting the air/fuel mixture before the point of proper combustion(tdc). With that being said the problem you are describing would be detonation, the difference is that there is a sudden release of heat energy from fuel in a engine caused by the air-fuel mixture reaching its critical pressure and temperature. Detonation occurs as a violent explosion rather than a smooth burning process.
Its good that you put this information out there, as you said not many people including yourself are aware of this. I don't have to worry about this as my car is neither turbocharged or direct injected, and plus at 70mph in top gear (5th) my engine turns around 3100 rpm which isn't great for fuel economy but that's where all the power is.
Owned a 1989 5.0 Mustang Automatic and the Engine block cracked cruising on the freeway at 55mph within the first 10,000 miles of owning the car. Luckily it was under warranty, but was in the shop for almost a month. Since 1989 I have never bought a FORD vehicle. I've had much better luck with Toyota... 212,000 and only have had to change the oil, tires, spark plugs, etc. High, Low revs all day everyday. Good luck and keep up the updates!
Have a 2nd gen MazdaSpeed3, glad to get the warning, haven't really "floored it" in 6th but makes me realize that I need to be sure to be more careful. Thanks for the warning!
The Blue 2004 STi you reviewed, my actual old sti, would overboost like mad if you put it in 6th and gave it gas. That much load will cause the turbo to spool and boost over your set boost...Overboost plus STi = kaboom
this plus cold start abuse is the exact reason people blow up the STI. I own a STI stock engine with 80k on it and plan to get another 100k out of it before I build a engine. Rule of thumb, if you are under 3500-4k in 1-5th don't hold it WOT. Another thing to comment on your oil topic. I know in the STI it is very common to use Rotella T6 diesel oil because it's ability to withstand high heat and abuse and high boost. I also feel like this is the best oil to use to prevent low RPM engine knock because it is designed to go in heavy duty high demand low RPM high boost and power turbo diesel engines. a good tune is the first thing. I had a Cobb OTS map and would get knock all the time on the knock sensor, got a pro tune and it has not knocked once unless the occasional train track or super loud roads.
definitely an important video. I first heard about this from a tuner when I had my 2011 wrx. I think some 2015 wrx people have probably blown their engines for this reason also. it's not just a 6th gear thing, its any time you put as ton of load on a turbo engine at low rpms. wot at 1500-2000 rpms in 3rd or 4th isn't great either. I think the problem is worse with di cars because they tend to make lots of power at very low rpms.
My Subaru FA20DIT on the Highway with a WOT situation= Smoke Screen Activated! Its just over dumping fuel. You can watch your A/F ratio and see whats happening. It would put stress on a lot of parts Im sure but if you roll into the throttle the computer can adjust.
Also, if the Mustang doesn't come with a factory boost gauge, definately put one in...The gauge will help you to determine if you are overboosting under heavy load
The MT82 in the Mustang is not a double overdrive transmission, just as an FYI. Only 6th gear is an over drive. But this issue is not limited to turbo charged engines. It can happen on NA engines as well. Lugging an engine is never good, especially a 4cyl, which is the most susceptible to this kind of issue.
TheDrogan91 oh believe me brotha when i say i have been pulled over for downshifting..the exhaust was to loud i guess..so "it sounded like i was speeding' he said..let me go with a warning
Thanks for informing the Turbo Direct injection community. This also goes for the 2006-07 MazdaSpeed 6. The throttle is VERY SENSITIVE in 6th I've noticed in my MazdaSpeed 6
This happened to my sti on pch, was gonna pass someone in 6th gear around 2500 rpm. Engine light came on, and si drive was glitching on the cluster but still performed fine. If I recall correctly the accessport saw it as an over boost error. I had to drive home and disconnect the battery, everything has been working fine since then. Lesson learned do NOT put your foot down at low rpms in 6th.
This may be the reason why my automatic transmission downshifts aggressively the moment I punch the gas pedal. It seems like it wants the engine to rev up rather than labor at low RPM and putting high stress on the turbo. I've heard this old saying: "work the engine, not the turbo." I think I understand it better now.
Thank you for this video, it is much appreciated! I had heard in passing a few times before that it's bad to go full throttle in high gear (or simply low rpm), but admittedly have floored my manual Mk6 GTI a couple of times in 6th gear. Considering it has a turbo and DI, I will definitely stop being heavy footed in 6th. This video was definitely a wake up call, thank you.
this is such common knowledge, regardless of what make/model you have regardless of turbo or n/a should never floor the car at a low rpm unless its 1/2nd gear.
This is something that has been well known in the mazdaspeed community for years. The rule of thumb for the mazdaspeeds is to never go full throttle under 3,000 rpm. There are tons of mazdaspeeds with large holes in the blocks because of people flooring it in 6th
Thanks for the heads up. I own a Mazdaspeed 3 and I've done some 6th gear pulls and thankfully I've never had anything go wrong. I will definitely be more cautious now with your warning. Gracias!
I'm not totally buying this response. I'm now a Golf R owner and this issue seems non existent for this engine. I think it's a tune problem. At high load low rpm in 6th gear it's easy to get boost creep where the ecu may not be tuned well in these areas. The tune could prevent this.
+Kyle Aschenberg It could be something with the tune but other EcoBoost engines have had these issues as well, as well as 2015 WRXs and Mazdaspeed3s. It seems the german cars are immune to this, not sure why but it's much more widespread than just a bad tune I think.
+Kyle Aschenberg especially if he is using a OTS Cobb tune. They suck balls. I did virtual dyno testing among many tunes on my WRX, and the Cobb stage 1 dynoed lower than stock. (virtual, not actual dyno.) do these mustangs have people that do "e-tunes" like Subarus do? I have tried 3 different e-tunes.
+LastHumansGarage There are e-tuners for the Mustang and one in particular that is very good with these EcoBoosts. I plan to have him tune the car eventually but don't want to finalize a tune until I'm done with engine mods.
+subaruwrxfan exactly, that's the way to do it. but also why e-tunes are a pain. you have to retune for every tiny mod, at least on our Subarus. And most people like doing one mod at a time, stopping to smell the roses. But each update can cost $50 or so, and it adds up. Our WRX e-tunes range from $100-$200, depending on if any extra mods are involved aside from a base stage 1 or stage 2.
Thanks for the heads up. From now on I'll change my driving habit on flooring it on 6th gear, it's not like I do it anyway, always down shift when passing someone or go on proper gear. Thanks again, will definitely keep this in mind.
Im sorry to hear about your problem. I just really can't wrap my mind around going WOT at 6th Gear? I mean isn't 6th a Cruising gear? I feel like this shouldn't be a problem for people to just down shift and WOT. Bigger gears, Quick RPM Gains, and Just top it at the higher gear.
This is more just an issue of fuel quality and possibly the HPFP not being able to keep up (doubtful unless it's really cold). Were you monitoring your ignition correction or fuel pressure? I can go full throttle in 6th with no problem, that's a problem with running a basic OTS tune as well as unknown fuel quality. I'd almost guarantee you were getting loads of negative ignition corrections.
+Tanner Middleton I wasn't monitoring any of those things unfortunately. Most of these turbo car communities all agree that regardless of tune or setup, full throttle in 6th is a no no. I'm just going to not do it again.
+subaruwrxfan fair enough, I've not looked into the ecoboost mustang forums as I have a Focus ST. I'd be willing to be that if you did a datalog in 4th gear starting at 2500rpm you'd likely have the same problem, honestly if you want it to be fixed you'll have to get a custom tune. Until then though like you said just avoid high load situations. I'd mount you're AP somewhere and just keep an eye on ignition corrections, maybe even doing a datalog in 3rd from 3k to near redline. I'd be happy to take a look at it if you shoot me an email with the log file, just to confirm everything looks reasonably safe.
+Tanner Middleton Thank you for the offer. I've never datalogged before but I'd be curious to see how it's running as far as the numbers go. I think I'm gonna get a custom tune once I'm done with mods, hopefully around the spring. Won't be driving too fast over the winter anyway.
+subaruwrxfan oh yeah you should definitely at least do one datalog, at least for some peace of mind, but if you ever get a chance to do one feel free to send me an email at middletontanner@gmail.com and I'll look over it for you. Best of luck!
Better gas and good tuning can help this. My Fist is fully bolted on E30 and I always floor it from low rpms in high gears. Not saying it doesnt happen...it used to happen on my MBC Volvo but that was running 28psi with an auto trans!
Thanks for the words of warning. I'd never have this issue though because I'm a downshifting addict haha. Any opportunity to get the revs going and I'll take it.
Regarding internals, this could also be a caution for any car with a lot of torque (especially modded cars with more torque than stock torque), turbo or naturally aspirated. Low RPM, high gear WOT stresses the engine as it puts it under a lot of load.
you should not worry about DIT engine because of that. just dont do maximum fuel injection while at low rpm and at higher gear i think its just common sens
I read that people who track reliability are starting to see more engine related issues in turbocharged cars now that they are becoming much more common.
Mine was just warmed up on a very cold day, my oil was on the end of its life, pulling in 4th, 5th, and 6th messing around up hill and road had humps and uneven lanes. Kept spiking the boost in 5th then 6th and holding. All the sudden I heard a chatter and a loud whine/roar noise while revving. I thought it was the turbo blades scraping the side of the housing. That is what it sounded like. Long story short.Pulled over and let cool off. Tried inspecting it, it ran for 6 more months like that, got a faint sound one time when engine was cold and I boosted but it quickly went away. All the sudden one day driving normal it started sputtering and I putted to the dealer where they spent 4k bucks determining I had a bad motor and no compression in piston number one. I got a new turbo and oil cleaned up on a motor with bad number 1 piston and was told to come get it as is and it was safe to drive like that. And I was expected to pay 4k for it. What a joke the dealers are. These cars are touchy and I drive my 2014 Lexus Is350 daily because I would hate to blow the POS Focus St up again. At best its a car that will be close to what the mazda 3 was, at worst people realize the 2.0 liter just cant handle the boost and they made a car that breaks every 10k miles with major repairs. 2014 focus st. Ford Procal, Bov, all suspension redone and adjustable, res. delete, and front lip spoiler, laminx fog covers, breedt shifter arm, aluminum bushing kit for shifter linkage, electric hybrid motor mount upgrade 55 dur I think, and some tires lol 2014 lexus is350 i need tires 2004 Rx 330i need front lower control arm bushings replaced 1987 944 Turbo I need my exhaust welded up and front bumper painted, installed, and buffed. 2006 R6 new fairing, new steering stabilizer, new rear tire...for sale 2004 R6 new engine, clutch, extended 3 inches, bigger rear tire, looks good runs good. for sale
great video. I actually sold my rx8 and was thinking about a turbo car but I don't know much more than the basics so that's a very helpful tip. Thanks man
LSPI can happen in any gear if you apply high load at low RPM relative to the gear your in. 6th gear would obviously be the easiest gear to do this in, so it probably happens more often in 6th. but for instance, if you are cruising around a neighborhood at 15-20mph and you are in 4/5th gear and floor it, LSPI is possible. you need to be in the appropriate gear for the speed you are going and your "throttle intentions", if you will
My EB busted a rod through the block at about 3200 rpm and 350whp. The car only had about 3,500 miles on the clock when it went south. Last month it broke a valve in two and destroyed the head, one of the new Manle pistons thanks God I installed I Beam turbo tough rods. Basically this 2.3 motor is crap. It generates good power but the internals are not strong. Am waiting for my new head to arrive and got the MAP valve train kit to solve the issue of braking valves. I hope this post help. Fernando
+Slayclops Yeah definitely although the type of turbo used can be better or worse. A larger turbo that takes a while to spool most likely wouldn't be as risky since you have to be at a higher rpms to get the turbo to do anything anyway.
keep them revs up!!!! 1St-4th I don't shift till 3.5k-4k. Once in 5th I don't shift to 6th until 4.5-5k and have an open road to cruise above 70mph. Anything less than 75mph gets 5th gear. These small engines get their power from the higher rpms.
Think about it this way on lets say, a 6 spd bicycle. If you start out on the 6th setting when leisurely riding it's going to kill your legs trying to get it up to speed. Think of your legs as the connecting rods. The rods are under so much stress because 6th gear is so long. It's not a problem in N/A cars because they'll just lug until it gets up to speed, being its atmospherically fed. In turbo cars, the engine is forced to make power instantly because of the air being crammed into the cylinders. Rods take all the added pressure to drive 6th gear until BOOM, you throw one into the side of the block.
For German cars I've never heard of such thing,I do it all the time in my 1.8t A4. I do get in to boost a little later though more around 3500 than 3000 rpm but I appreciate the advice won't be do that in 6th gear ever again.
Use the datalog ability of your tuning device. Log Boost and Load. Check what numbers corelate to what boost in the log. Then just lower the Load slightly at 3k RPM and below. Keep repeating till the car makes no boost below 3k RPM. Log and make sure there's no KR and nothing bad is happening with the A/F ration either. I lowered everything I had below 3k RPM to 0.9 load. It dropped my boost to about 3psi. I think if I set the load to 8.6 I will have no boost at all. Less than that will probably have the throttle close a bit. But this problem probably has more to do with the Camshaft-Driven High Pressure Fuel Pump all those Ford cars have(including Mazda).
Thank you for posting this. I have a Fiat 500 Abarth with the 1.4l turbo. I've only owned it a short time and while I haven't had this happen that I'm aware of, I've noticed the boost builds up a lot at lower rpm and I had been wondering what dangers there were when applying excessive throttle at lower rpm in the taller gears. The fiat has a surprising amount of torque for a tiny engine that allows me to cruise around in fifth gear and still accelerate. It's be nice for this to be in the manual.
because of this issue...people should use a different PCM for tunes...if u blow it up warranty will cover you on your other stock PCM...if you have only one & take it in after flashing back to stock tune,they can still tell...so you need two.
Thanks for letting me know. I just bought a turbocharged car and I love boosting in low rpms because I love to feel that torque just pick up. But I will try to not do it so much in 6th gear. :)
I once floored my automatic mustang ecoboost and my throttle body got stuck open for some reason. Good thing pressing the brake still slowed the car down and somehow the throttle disengaged . scary situation think twice before really flooring it.
subaruwrxfan just to tell you you turned me towards getting a brz thanks I know im commenting on a video for your mustang but i just wanted to tell you thanks
An issue like this seems like a problem that stems from the factory tune. Obviously your Cobb tune did a great job by dumping all that fuel to prevent detonation/worse knock, but you'd think at lower RPM in 6th gear, the manufacturer would pull some timing to prevent these kinds of things. I mean, if you have a car with tons of torque down low, you probably want to use it! That torque is something V8 owners love, especially when they don't need to drop a gear to pass someone on the highway. It's a shame owners lose their engines because of an issue like this.
***** Did you just catch your wife cheating on you or something? Why the hostility? Both modded and unmodded vehicles are experiencing this. You need to calm down and add productive input the next time you speak. Have a good day.
Overdrive isn't designed to be hammered with the gas. If you want to go faster or pass another car drop gears and go. My F350 7.3 6spd does the same thing
A lot of these LSPI issues occur from the Oil that are used in them. The cars that Manufactures are spitting out into the market are way more advanced than the oil that is being used in them. Ams-oil, Mobil 1, and Castrol are working on oil additives that help prevent this. I bought the motor craft oil for my first change but will be switch to am-soil before long. I like my ecoboost so far, it would be a shame for it to meet such an abrupt end.
Might want to try and sell it now before this issue gets big. While everything looks okay now, it could be possible you caused damage that while affect longevity.
subaruwrxfan Its all good. My '03 RSX 5spd let me down today. Front caliper was binding a little so I jacked her up tonight and noticed a bunch of green grease all over the bottom of the transmission. CV boot ripped :/ Oh well, shit happens.
What about having the car in 6th using cruise and accelerating with the cruise controls? My 08' Mazdaspeed3 still pulls pretty good in 6th when using cruise control. I haven't seen anything like what you are describing, but now I'm a little worried about using cruise controls.
That motor in the mustang, which is originally from the MazdaSpeed 6. It's notorious for blowing on WOT at low rpms. i know 4 people who blew the speed 6 and 2 with mustangs also. They don't like very specific things and are easy to blow, i hate them.
Hmm, how much octane has you fuel? I am curious if that will happen with high octane fuel too? I live in germany and my car allways gets just the 100 octane shell V-Power or Aral (BP) Ultimate 102 octane fuel. That will prevent and eliminate ANY engine knock under any circumstances.
WOW. Thanks for the warning. I've been not downshifting since I bought my FoST. Ridiculous how you get enough torque to pass in 6th gear on the freeway but can't use it. you might've just saved my engine there!
I have heard about not going full throttle (in the case of my Subaru) below 3k rpm in higher gears. It induces unnecessary load to the engine at a point when the car produces very little torque.
Im pretty sure this is what caused a check engine light (misfire code) in my focus st, thanks for the information, you may have saved my car no joke, Im so relieved right now i thought i had a lemon. #drivererror
It was a thing back in the days when I bought my mazdaspeed6, people where blowing up their engine all the time. My new BMW (3.0L twin turbo) doesn't have that problem, go figure why...
+Raymond Henson I still love the car and the idea of the ecoboost mustang. Just don't like having this paranoia now. Been down the unreliabily road with the Mini and it screwed me royally both financially and with the inconvenience of breaking down multiple times. Really hoping this car doesn't do the same.
+subaruwrxfan Understood completely. My nieghbor is a service manager at a local ford dealer and has nothing but praise for the ecoboost. Stating that he rarely sees one come in for issues.
Hey Matt I'm thinking about getting an Ecoboost and wanted to ask if you've had any instances of slipping while it rained because I want to get a new car and I've heard that mustangs are really bad for the winter. Please get back to me
+Sebastian Nemocon I drove mine all last winter if you go back and watch the Mustang Weekly Updates. With snow tires it got through the winter here in Pittsburgh just fine!
Another thing is with Direct Injection, there's the possibility of carbon build up from running at low RPM's too often. Audi even mentions that it's good to "Italian Tune-up" your car every once in awhile to clean it up. That being said, don't be afraid to rev your car like a mad man. BWAAAAAAAHP
Certainly an interesting subject, I haven't researched it much or spoken with anyone within the industry regarding this. I tend to stay out of boost completely in my STI if I'm in 6th gear as it gets bogged down and I've always heard it's not great for the engine, which kinda makes sense considering how much of a torque disadvantage it's at due to the gearing. One of those things like changing your oil at 1,000 miles on the odometer and break-in procedures that's debated from an anecdotal standpoint but rarely seems to be great data on. I'll try to keep the question in mind next time I'm around someone who understands this field better.
+Engineering Explained Thanks for your insight Jason! Based off the comments I figured this topic had a split consensus but yeah I'd love to learn more about this in the future from someone that knows more about it.
Engineering Explained there’s going to be a new oil standard this year upgrading API SN to SN+ Amsoil put a lot of research into developing new formulas to fight off LSPI.
Id never heard of this before your weekly update. I'm glad you're spreading awareness
JUST DOWN SHIFT! Don't go WOT in turbo cars unless your at a higher RPM. Down shifts are so fun anyways!
^Finally some one with common sense! This is not an issues or a flaw. Its just how it works, if the car was a Turbo with automatic transmission the computer will down shift it to accelerate and handle the comanded boost.
+f15ms6 that's not "how it works" on most turbo 4 bangers from Japan and none from Europe. Stop being in denial that Ford ecoboost has everything figured out about turbo cars.
+f15ms6 that's not "how it works" on most turbo 4 bangers from Japan and none from Europe. Stop being in denial that Ford ecoboost has everything figured out about turbo cars.
What does WOT mean?
wot = wide open throttle, pedal to the floor. I think at low rpm, you don't actually have to mat the pedal to get about the same effect.
LSPI is still an area that's being heavily researched. The EcoBoost engine is robust and has been designed to help mitigate the failings of Mazda's DISI. That said, serious knocking can still occur. My suggestions are: (1) get a tune, (2) change shifting habits, (3) keep and eye and feel for your vehicle. This is all we can really do until engine designs improve.
smartest guy in this thread..
I know this is very old and don't know if you'll ever see this comment, but how would a tune help?... I'm asking because I'm considering buying a fiesta/focus ST with ecoboost engine.
@@twistedsanity623 Old thread for sure. To answer your question first: even though your foot is to the floor, the throttle is *not actually 100% open* (ECU-limited). A good tune can ensure the throttle isn't overextended in low RPM ranges (pre-5500rpm). This will help reduce engine load, which helps mitigate LSPI. I can't add a source for the following because it's been a while, but I recall reports in ~2015/2016 that (1) even the stock tune had a slightly more aggressive low-RPM throttle that increased risk (they are quick little cars) and (2) aftermarket tuners were still learning about the behavior of these engines and subsequently blew several up due to reducing throttle restrictions in the wrong parts of the power band. All part of the learning process. Now that Ford is packing 3-cylinder ecoboost engines into cars nowadays like the Bronco Sport, you might be in a safer position now with a stock configuration. Will leave that up to you though. Good luck!
@@sh1znack thanks for the info
Definitely a known thing in the ST community. Most people say don't go WOT above 4th gear.
is WOT wide open throttle? english isn't my first language and i see the word "wot" all the time.
+Lajcsi Vagyok yes
+Omar Mercado :v
+Omar Mercado thx i wasnt sure :D
+Rucifel Yup if you are going to race anyway no need to go past 4th unless you trying to go to jail LOL
Glad to hear she's still running great! try not to be too paranoid ;)
It's funny because when I test drove a 13 Focus ST the dealer told me to do this exact thing. He said, "put it into 6th and gun it" when I did it didn't get much power and he sounded like he'd never even tried it before. Thanks for this thread I'll avoid this in my 16.
i got 102k miles on my Focus ST and i did plenty full throttle pull in 6th gear and my engine is fine.
Ford has been doing turbo cars in Europe since the 70's not sure why only Americans blowing up Engines
As a AME i have a lot of experience and knowledge in this subject. To make this issue more clear there is a difference between "pre-ignition" and detonation. Pre-ignition will occur when there is a local hotspot within the cylinder that is igniting the air/fuel mixture before the point of proper combustion(tdc). With that being said the problem you are describing would be detonation, the difference is that there is a sudden release of heat energy from fuel in a engine caused by the air-fuel mixture reaching its critical pressure and temperature. Detonation occurs as a violent explosion rather than a smooth burning process.
Just bought a used 15’ Sti today with only 50k miles and one owner :) thanks for the tip.
This is common sense. Don’t lug any engine...high load and low rpm is bad in any situation.
Yea, rule of thumb is to not go full throttle in 5th or 6th gear. Always downshift. It's more fun, and safer for the car.
Its good that you put this information out there, as you said not many people including yourself are aware of this. I don't have to worry about this as my car is neither turbocharged or direct injected, and plus at 70mph in top gear (5th) my engine turns around 3100 rpm which isn't great for fuel economy but that's where all the power is.
Owned a 1989 5.0 Mustang Automatic and the Engine block cracked cruising on the freeway at 55mph within the first 10,000 miles of owning the car. Luckily it was under warranty, but was in the shop for almost a month. Since 1989 I have never bought a FORD vehicle. I've had much better luck with Toyota... 212,000 and only have had to change the oil, tires, spark plugs, etc. High, Low revs all day everyday. Good luck and keep up the updates!
Smoke screen also great for throwing off the law!
+Nick Murray I always wanted to be James Bond!
Have a 2nd gen MazdaSpeed3, glad to get the warning, haven't really "floored it" in 6th but makes me realize that I need to be sure to be more careful. Thanks for the warning!
The Blue 2004 STi you reviewed, my actual old sti, would overboost like mad if you put it in 6th and gave it gas. That much load will cause the turbo to spool and boost over your set boost...Overboost plus STi = kaboom
+Matt Rupp ever heard of a wastegate?
Bryan Kendall Of course lol
this plus cold start abuse is the exact reason people blow up the STI. I own a STI stock engine with 80k on it and plan to get another 100k out of it before I build a engine.
Rule of thumb, if you are under 3500-4k in 1-5th don't hold it WOT.
Another thing to comment on your oil topic. I know in the STI it is very common to use Rotella T6 diesel oil because it's ability to withstand high heat and abuse and high boost. I also feel like this is the best oil to use to prevent low RPM engine knock because it is designed to go in heavy duty high demand low RPM high boost and power turbo diesel engines. a good tune is the first thing. I had a Cobb OTS map and would get knock all the time on the knock sensor, got a pro tune and it has not knocked once unless the occasional train track or super loud roads.
definitely an important video. I first heard about this from a tuner when I had my 2011 wrx. I think some 2015 wrx people have probably blown their engines for this reason also. it's not just a 6th gear thing, its any time you put as ton of load on a turbo engine at low rpms. wot at 1500-2000 rpms in 3rd or 4th isn't great either. I think the problem is worse with di cars because they tend to make lots of power at very low rpms.
My Subaru FA20DIT on the Highway with a WOT situation= Smoke Screen Activated! Its just over dumping fuel. You can watch your A/F ratio and see whats happening. It would put stress on a lot of parts Im sure but if you roll into the throttle the computer can adjust.
Also, if the Mustang doesn't come with a factory boost gauge, definately put one in...The gauge will help you to determine if you are overboosting under heavy load
Kinda makes me nervous for us 1.0 ecoboost Fiesta owners but we only have 5 gears. Good to keep an eye out though and be cautious.
The more you know.. lol I had no idea about this until you mentioned it in the weekly update.
The MT82 in the Mustang is not a double overdrive transmission, just as an FYI. Only 6th gear is an over drive.
But this issue is not limited to turbo charged engines. It can happen on NA engines as well. Lugging an engine is never good, especially a 4cyl, which is the most susceptible to this kind of issue.
I go full throttle in 6th in my XC60 Turbo 3.0L all the time without downshifting, I'll be sure to now! Thanks for the info Matt!!!
so when a cop pulls me over for down shifting and going to fast..I'm just tell him that I was just saving my engine
Haha he's not going to pull you over for downshifting. Just because you downshift doesn't mean you need to speed
TheDrogan91 oh believe me brotha when i say i have been pulled over for downshifting..the exhaust was to loud i guess..so "it sounded like i was speeding' he said..let me go with a warning
+Dark Stryker It's like in Russia:
-Officer Sasha, how fast was the driver going?
-VVRRROOOMMM!!!!
-And how he supposed to?
-pyrr, pyrr, pyrr, pyrr...
henoch44 lol
Thanks for informing the Turbo Direct injection community. This also goes for the 2006-07 MazdaSpeed 6. The throttle is VERY SENSITIVE in 6th I've noticed in my MazdaSpeed 6
This happened to my sti on pch, was gonna pass someone in 6th gear around 2500 rpm. Engine light came on, and si drive was glitching on the cluster but still performed fine. If I recall correctly the accessport saw it as an over boost error. I had to drive home and disconnect the battery, everything has been working fine since then. Lesson learned do NOT put your foot down at low rpms in 6th.
This may be the reason why my automatic transmission downshifts aggressively the moment I punch the gas pedal. It seems like it wants the engine to rev up rather than labor at low RPM and putting high stress on the turbo.
I've heard this old saying: "work the engine, not the turbo." I think I understand it better now.
Thank you for this video, it is much appreciated! I had heard in passing a few times before that it's bad to go full throttle in high gear (or simply low rpm), but admittedly have floored my manual Mk6 GTI a couple of times in 6th gear. Considering it has a turbo and DI, I will definitely stop being heavy footed in 6th. This video was definitely a wake up call, thank you.
this is such common knowledge, regardless of what make/model you have regardless of turbo or n/a should never floor the car at a low rpm unless its 1/2nd gear.
This is something that has been well known in the mazdaspeed community for years. The rule of thumb for the mazdaspeeds is to never go full throttle under 3,000 rpm. There are tons of mazdaspeeds with large holes in the blocks because of people flooring it in 6th
Thanks for the heads up. I own a Mazdaspeed 3 and I've done some 6th gear pulls and thankfully I've never had anything go wrong. I will definitely be more cautious now with your warning. Gracias!
I'm not totally buying this response. I'm now a Golf R owner and this issue seems non existent for this engine. I think it's a tune problem. At high load low rpm in 6th gear it's easy to get boost creep where the ecu may not be tuned well in these areas. The tune could prevent this.
+Kyle Aschenberg It could be something with the tune but other EcoBoost engines have had these issues as well, as well as 2015 WRXs and Mazdaspeed3s. It seems the german cars are immune to this, not sure why but it's much more widespread than just a bad tune I think.
+Kyle Aschenberg especially if he is using a OTS Cobb tune. They suck balls. I did virtual dyno testing among many tunes on my WRX, and the Cobb stage 1 dynoed lower than stock. (virtual, not actual dyno.) do these mustangs have people that do "e-tunes" like Subarus do? I have tried 3 different e-tunes.
subaruwrxfan I think it's the stock tune or any OTS tunes. If you get a road tune or dyno tune, this can be accounted for.
+LastHumansGarage There are e-tuners for the Mustang and one in particular that is very good with these EcoBoosts. I plan to have him tune the car eventually but don't want to finalize a tune until I'm done with engine mods.
+subaruwrxfan exactly, that's the way to do it. but also why e-tunes are a pain. you have to retune for every tiny mod, at least on our Subarus. And most people like doing one mod at a time, stopping to smell the roses. But each update can cost $50 or so, and it adds up. Our WRX e-tunes range from $100-$200, depending on if any extra mods are involved aside from a base stage 1 or stage 2.
Thanks for the heads up. From now on I'll change my driving habit on flooring it on 6th gear, it's not like I do it anyway, always down shift when passing someone or go on proper gear. Thanks again, will definitely keep this in mind.
Rarely used 6th in my GTI but flooring it in high gears always just seems like the engine isn't happy.
Im sorry to hear about your problem. I just really can't wrap my mind around going WOT at 6th Gear? I mean isn't 6th a Cruising gear? I feel like this shouldn't be a problem for people to just down shift and WOT. Bigger gears, Quick RPM Gains, and Just top it at the higher gear.
Thank you for the warning. Is LSPI possible in an auto transmission as well ?
This is more just an issue of fuel quality and possibly the HPFP not being able to keep up (doubtful unless it's really cold). Were you monitoring your ignition correction or fuel pressure?
I can go full throttle in 6th with no problem, that's a problem with running a basic OTS tune as well as unknown fuel quality. I'd almost guarantee you were getting loads of negative ignition corrections.
+Tanner Middleton I wasn't monitoring any of those things unfortunately. Most of these turbo car communities all agree that regardless of tune or setup, full throttle in 6th is a no no. I'm just going to not do it again.
+subaruwrxfan fair enough, I've not looked into the ecoboost mustang forums as I have a Focus ST. I'd be willing to be that if you did a datalog in 4th gear starting at 2500rpm you'd likely have the same problem, honestly if you want it to be fixed you'll have to get a custom tune. Until then though like you said just avoid high load situations.
I'd mount you're AP somewhere and just keep an eye on ignition corrections, maybe even doing a datalog in 3rd from 3k to near redline. I'd be happy to take a look at it if you shoot me an email with the log file, just to confirm everything looks reasonably safe.
+Tanner Middleton Thank you for the offer. I've never datalogged before but I'd be curious to see how it's running as far as the numbers go. I think I'm gonna get a custom tune once I'm done with mods, hopefully around the spring. Won't be driving too fast over the winter anyway.
+subaruwrxfan oh yeah you should definitely at least do one datalog, at least for some peace of mind, but if you ever get a chance to do one feel free to send me an email at middletontanner@gmail.com and I'll look over it for you.
Best of luck!
Better gas and good tuning can help this. My Fist is fully bolted on E30 and I always floor it from low rpms in high gears. Not saying it doesnt happen...it used to happen on my MBC Volvo but that was running 28psi with an auto trans!
Thanks for the words of warning. I'd never have this issue though because I'm a downshifting addict haha. Any opportunity to get the revs going and I'll take it.
Regarding internals, this could also be a caution for any car with a lot of torque (especially modded cars with more torque than stock torque), turbo or naturally aspirated. Low RPM, high gear WOT stresses the engine as it puts it under a lot of load.
you should not worry about DIT engine because of that. just dont do maximum fuel injection while at low rpm and at higher gear i think its just common sens
This is why i always go to 4 in my STI when passing. :) good videos man. I hope one day you will get a wrx if you still want one now :)
I read that people who track reliability are starting to see more engine related issues in turbocharged cars now that they are becoming much more common.
I know that cylinder 4 on the ST's have major issues as well. Melting the pistons from LSPI will certainly do that
No issues boosting my 135i in 6th gear, been doing it for years
Thank you for this information! I own a Focus ST and haven't run into this situation yet! How fast can you go into 6 gear?
Mine was just warmed up on a very cold day, my oil was on the end of its life, pulling in 4th, 5th, and 6th messing around up hill and road had humps and uneven lanes. Kept spiking the boost in 5th then 6th and holding. All the sudden I heard a chatter and a loud whine/roar noise while revving. I thought it was the turbo blades scraping the side of the housing. That is what it sounded like. Long story short.Pulled over and let cool off. Tried inspecting it, it ran for 6 more months like that, got a faint sound one time when engine was cold and I boosted but it quickly went away. All the sudden one day driving normal it started sputtering and I putted to the dealer where they spent 4k bucks determining I had a bad motor and no compression in piston number one. I got a new turbo and oil cleaned up on a motor with bad number 1 piston and was told to come get it as is and it was safe to drive like that. And I was expected to pay 4k for it. What a joke the dealers are. These cars are touchy and I drive my 2014 Lexus Is350 daily because I would hate to blow the POS Focus St up again. At best its a car that will be close to what the mazda 3 was, at worst people realize the 2.0 liter just cant handle the boost and they made a car that breaks every 10k miles with major repairs.
2014 focus st. Ford Procal, Bov, all suspension redone and adjustable, res. delete, and front lip spoiler, laminx fog covers, breedt shifter arm, aluminum bushing kit for shifter linkage, electric hybrid motor mount upgrade 55 dur I think, and some tires lol
2014 lexus is350 i need tires
2004 Rx 330i need front lower control arm bushings replaced
1987 944 Turbo I need my exhaust welded up and front bumper painted, installed, and buffed.
2006 R6 new fairing, new steering stabilizer, new rear tire...for sale
2004 R6 new engine, clutch, extended 3 inches, bigger rear tire, looks good runs good. for sale
Thank you Matt. I own a 2015 Wrx and this information is much appreciated. I'll let my other subie friends know!
they could probably design a system to prevent this in the ECU. Then allow to disable it in track mode.
great video. I actually sold my rx8 and was thinking about a turbo car but I don't know much more than the basics so that's a very helpful tip. Thanks man
I have a 2014 Focus ST. I had no idea about this. Thank you for the warning. I'll be sure to downshift from now on.
LSPI can happen in any gear if you apply high load at low RPM relative to the gear your in. 6th gear would obviously be the easiest gear to do this in, so it probably happens more often in 6th. but for instance, if you are cruising around a neighborhood at 15-20mph and you are in 4/5th gear and floor it, LSPI is possible. you need to be in the appropriate gear for the speed you are going and your "throttle intentions", if you will
My EB busted a rod through the block at about 3200 rpm and 350whp. The car only had about 3,500 miles on the clock when it went south. Last month it broke a valve in two and destroyed the head, one of the new Manle pistons thanks God I installed I Beam turbo tough rods. Basically this 2.3 motor is crap. It generates good power but the internals are not strong. Am waiting for my new head to arrive and got the MAP valve train kit to solve the issue of braking valves. I hope this post help.
Fernando
Thank you for sharing with us this information. Does it apply to boosted FRS/BRZ?
+Slayclops Yeah definitely although the type of turbo used can be better or worse. A larger turbo that takes a while to spool most likely wouldn't be as risky since you have to be at a higher rpms to get the turbo to do anything anyway.
+subaruwrxfan Got it, will definitely keep it in mind for the future.
keep them revs up!!!! 1St-4th I don't shift till 3.5k-4k. Once in 5th I don't shift to 6th until 4.5-5k and have an open road to cruise above 70mph. Anything less than 75mph gets 5th gear. These small engines get their power from the higher rpms.
Think about it this way on lets say, a 6 spd bicycle. If you start out on the 6th setting when leisurely riding it's going to kill your legs trying to get it up to speed. Think of your legs as the connecting rods. The rods are under so much stress because 6th gear is so long. It's not a problem in N/A cars because they'll just lug until it gets up to speed, being its atmospherically fed. In turbo cars, the engine is forced to make power instantly because of the air being crammed into the cylinders. Rods take all the added pressure to drive 6th gear until BOOM, you throw one into the side of the block.
For German cars I've never heard of such thing,I do it all the time in my 1.8t A4. I do get in to boost a little later though more around 3500 than 3000 rpm but I appreciate the advice won't be do that in 6th gear ever again.
Use the datalog ability of your tuning device. Log Boost and Load. Check what numbers corelate to what boost in the log. Then just lower the Load slightly at 3k RPM and below. Keep repeating till the car makes no boost below 3k RPM. Log and make sure there's no KR and nothing bad is happening with the A/F ration either.
I lowered everything I had below 3k RPM to 0.9 load. It dropped my boost to about 3psi. I think if I set the load to 8.6 I will have no boost at all. Less than that will probably have the throttle close a bit.
But this problem probably has more to do with the Camshaft-Driven High Pressure Fuel Pump all those Ford cars have(including Mazda).
Thank you for posting this. I have a Fiat 500 Abarth with the 1.4l turbo. I've only owned it a short time and while I haven't had this happen that I'm aware of, I've noticed the boost builds up a lot at lower rpm and I had been wondering what dangers there were when applying excessive throttle at lower rpm in the taller gears. The fiat has a surprising amount of torque for a tiny engine that allows me to cruise around in fifth gear and still accelerate. It's be nice for this to be in the manual.
because of this issue...people should use a different PCM for tunes...if u blow it up warranty will cover you on your other stock PCM...if you have only one & take it in after flashing back to stock tune,they can still tell...so you need two.
Thanks for the update Matt just bought a new 1.0 Ecoboost good to know :)
super informative definitely one of the reason why auto-makers are pushing people to buy auto so this isn't an issue.
direct injection motors seem to have a lot of problems due to blow by as well. VW and ford with turbo applications have a ton of issues sadly.
I think R56 Mini Cooper S models might be prone to this issue as well...
Thanks for letting me know. I just bought a turbocharged car and I love boosting in low rpms because I love to feel that torque just pick up. But I will try to not do it so much in 6th gear. :)
I once floored my automatic mustang ecoboost and my throttle body got stuck open for some reason.
Good thing pressing the brake still slowed the car down and somehow the throttle disengaged . scary situation think twice before really flooring it.
subaruwrxfan just to tell you you turned me towards getting a brz thanks I know im commenting on a video for your mustang but i just wanted to tell you thanks
An issue like this seems like a problem that stems from the factory tune. Obviously your Cobb tune did a great job by dumping all that fuel to prevent detonation/worse knock, but you'd think at lower RPM in 6th gear, the manufacturer would pull some timing to prevent these kinds of things. I mean, if you have a car with tons of torque down low, you probably want to use it! That torque is something V8 owners love, especially when they don't need to drop a gear to pass someone on the highway. It's a shame owners lose their engines because of an issue like this.
***** Did you just catch your wife cheating on you or something? Why the hostility? Both modded and unmodded vehicles are experiencing this. You need to calm down and add productive input the next time you speak. Have a good day.
That's never happened to me with an automatic EcoBoost Mustang. Wonder if it's just for stick bc auto changes gears when u floor it
The Subaru WRX STI does not have direct injection nor was it ever direct injected.
Overdrive isn't designed to be hammered with the gas. If you want to go faster or pass another car drop gears and go. My F350 7.3 6spd does the same thing
That's good to know I was debating between buying a focus st or frs in the spring looks like I will leaning more towards the frs now thank you
+Brandon Skomo The Focus ST is great, just be sure to downshift when passing on the highway.
wow this is a major bummer I will just carry on redline in each gear.
Never knew about this, very good thing to know even though i don't own a turbo'd car, will be vary when i do drive them in the future Thanks!!
A lot of these LSPI issues occur from the Oil that are used in them. The cars that Manufactures are spitting out into the market are way more advanced than the oil that is being used in them. Ams-oil, Mobil 1, and Castrol are working on oil additives that help prevent this. I bought the motor craft oil for my first change but will be switch to am-soil before long. I like my ecoboost so far, it would be a shame for it to meet such an abrupt end.
Might want to try and sell it now before this issue gets big. While everything looks okay now, it could be possible you caused damage that while affect longevity.
No
TheRichieRozay Yeah.
+Riley Nelson I'm gonna keep a close eye on everything. I don't want the car to let me down.
subaruwrxfan Its all good. My '03 RSX 5spd let me down today. Front caliper was binding a little so I jacked her up tonight and noticed a bunch of green grease all over the bottom of the transmission. CV boot ripped :/ Oh well, shit happens.
+Riley Nelson did you have any clicking noises under the hood prior to you finding out it was the cv boot??
Thanks for the info! I just got my FoST and I've been doing that, highway speeds accelerating on 6th speeds !
Thx for the info man, I'll keep that in mind. Don't want to hurt that beautiful 2.0 in the WRX ;)
What about having the car in 6th using cruise and accelerating with the cruise controls? My 08' Mazdaspeed3 still pulls pretty good in 6th when using cruise control. I haven't seen anything like what you are describing, but now I'm a little worried about using cruise controls.
So this issue is unique to direct injection? Can you explain why?
Thanks for the warning, greatly appreciated.
That motor in the mustang, which is originally from the MazdaSpeed 6. It's notorious for blowing on WOT at low rpms. i know 4 people who blew the speed 6 and 2 with mustangs also. They don't like very specific things and are easy to blow, i hate them.
+Connor Mohan Yikes, good to know though.
+Connor Mohan My friend that has a Speed6 had his turbo blow after having it for a few months. :o
Hmm, how much octane has you fuel? I am curious if that will happen with high octane fuel too? I live in germany and my car allways gets just the 100 octane shell V-Power or Aral (BP) Ultimate 102 octane fuel. That will prevent and eliminate ANY engine knock under any circumstances.
I am guessing that there is less risk of this occurring with an Automatic due to the programming of the shift points etc.
Wow I did that the other day, thanks so much man now I know what I have to do
Thanks for the heads up, i dont have a turbo car yet but its good to know for future reference.
WOW. Thanks for the warning. I've been not downshifting since I bought my FoST. Ridiculous how you get enough torque to pass in 6th gear on the freeway but can't use it. you might've just saved my engine there!
I have heard about not going full throttle (in the case of my Subaru) below 3k rpm in higher gears. It induces unnecessary load to the engine at a point when the car produces very little torque.
Im pretty sure this is what caused a check engine light (misfire code) in my focus st, thanks for the information, you may have saved my car no joke, Im so relieved right now i thought i had a lemon. #drivererror
6th gear is tall in my focus st. I don't boost in 6th. 4th is my most common boost passing gear on the highway.
mine just went out cruising on the highway today. Focus ST
good stuff man.. Had a few subs tell me about this and now I know. thank you
It was a thing back in the days when I bought my mazdaspeed6, people where blowing up their engine all the time.
My new BMW (3.0L twin turbo) doesn't have that problem, go figure why...
thanks for the heads up Matt!
I hope this doesn't cause you to dislike your mustang. As much as this issue causes me concern, I"m still quite happy with mine.
+Raymond Henson I still love the car and the idea of the ecoboost mustang. Just don't like having this paranoia now. Been down the unreliabily road with the Mini and it screwed me royally both financially and with the inconvenience of breaking down multiple times. Really hoping this car doesn't do the same.
+subaruwrxfan Understood completely. My nieghbor is a service manager at a local ford dealer and has nothing but praise for the ecoboost. Stating that he rarely sees one come in for issues.
Hey Matt I'm thinking about getting an Ecoboost and wanted to ask if you've had any instances of slipping while it rained because I want to get a new car and I've heard that mustangs are really bad for the winter. Please get back to me
+Sebastian Nemocon I drove mine all last winter if you go back and watch the Mustang Weekly Updates. With snow tires it got through the winter here in Pittsburgh just fine!
Another thing is with Direct Injection, there's the possibility of carbon build up from running at low RPM's too often. Audi even mentions that it's good to "Italian Tune-up" your car every once in awhile to clean it up. That being said, don't be afraid to rev your car like a mad man. BWAAAAAAAHP
Speed owners have known this since 2007. Carry on.