Colt Shotguns of the Old West: 1878 and 1883
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2024
- When someone says "Old West Colt", the first thought is usually not double barreled shotguns. However, Colt made two quite high-end side-by-side shotguns during this period, and they played a role in the remarkable Colt/Winchester market-fixing agreement.
Colt's Model 1878 was an exposed hammer double gun that competed closely with high-end Parkers, and sold a total of about 23,000 guns. This was followed by the Model 1883, a hammerless design in line with the cutting edge technology.
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This is why I sub to Forgotten Weapons. The back story. Where else will you find the history behind Colt's shotguns and Winchester's back door deals that in fact affect us today. No Winchester handguns and no Colt lever action. Thank you.
+Kenny VanCleave Right on the money. I was going to say the exact same thing. The back story is every bit as interesting as the guns themselves.
+Kenny VanCleave Yep, it's not just a gun channel, it's also a history channel.
+Kenny VanCleave Yup, same here for me it's also a large part of the reason why I enjoy hickok45 so much too. Granted hit focus is more on the newer less forgotten items but even those have an interesting history at times :).
Exactly. You summarized why most of us watch this channel. Great history of interesting firearms.
+Kenny VanCleave
Yep, me too. Not a firearm fan in any shape or form, but the historical angle of those antique weapons is highly interesting!
I am from the UK and don't know firearms, but Forgotten Weapons is as much a gun channel as it is a history channel, and for that I thank you, Gun Jesus.
Same (from/in the UK) firearms are my biggest interest but being in the UK it’s very hard to get them even deactivated ones are like double the price of a working one in America
Better start learning, quick like - Australia
Same I mainly like seeing the internals of them, but history is also quite nice to know.
You have my sympathy
I love the history about our firearms industry
My local gun shop has a really nice 1883 Colt that's gorgeous in its condition. It's also better and tighter than most newer double barrels I've seen lately. If it weren't for having to keep blackpowder shells in it I would really be nice to have to hunt with.
It is possible to get an extra set of barrels to run modern ammo in them. Breach-Face with the Firing-pin doesn’t take very much of the pressure of the shells, and thus the older Actions are fine with modern barrels and modern ammo (I collect principally 19th Century stuff, and I recently bought one of the Wells-Fargo marked 1878 Hammer Guns that someone in the late-1800s had bought a longer set of barrels - still colt, but made around 1888 to 1894, and capable of running smokeless powder - to use the shotgun for more practical purposes. And then someone made a set of modern shorter barrels - that look like they date to 1950/60 - that has no problem with the more modern shells, including the longer shells… Although shooting it with the modern Magnum Shotgun Ammo is painful to the shooter, usually me, and not something that is needed with an 18” to 20” barrel - The original Colt Barrels are 18”, the 20th Century replacements are 20”).
Something else that I learned is that if you manage to get some Full-Length Brass Shotgun Shells, that using a lighter-load of smokeless powder is OK in a shotgun, as the brass shell helps to contain the different pressure-curve of the modern powder. This is also vital for the 10g guns from that period. They typically don’t do well with paper or plastic rounds, even of black-powder.
I have my grandfather’s 1878 Colt in 10-gauge. It’s been hunted with and carried a lot, but it served him for a lifetime. They were elegant old guns although pretty heavy.
3:59 *My god that's one beautiful bunch of Damascus steel barrels.* The pattern is perfect on both of them, the first one is twisted pattern and the second one is folded pattern, very high quality and labor intensive job. Today this would be horrendously expensive to get that lever of quality.
Great review and a lot of great info. I own a 1878 Colt in 10 Gauge. The S/N has it being manufactured in 1881. I have owned it for about 20 years now. A great wall hanger if their ever was one. The JM Davis Gun Museum in OK has a bunch of them on display.
I had no idea Colt made shotguns in this era. Odd considering how many they sold. Thanks for the interesting background info too, and for the perspective on the era. Everyone thinks of that era as people with cut down coach guns and revolvers with multiple spare cylinders... When in reality guns were used by the vast majority as invaluable hunting firearms considering most people lived on farms/in the country. And gun fights/shoot outs were rare.
Wake up
I like seeing the gun up close as you talk. keep that up.
The Damascus steel on the Colt hammerless example is amazing. Thanks =)
+SomeGuyInSandy I was thinking the same. I've handled some shotguns of around that era, and they were indeed beautiful. Sad that they are likely unsafe to shoot- at least with anything close to full power.
What's Damascus?
Travis Davis it’s a type of folded metal alloy, I believe (by no means am I a metallurgist). Google it and you’ll find a better explanation and examples.
Love those curls in the Damascus steel. I haven't seen much of that.
This is what I love about firearms: the history. I like range time and accuracy and being as tactical as possible as much as the next guy, but the actual history of a specific firearm and its manufacturer is what appeals to me.
Just picked up a nice ‘78 for $250. I looked it up on Colt’s site and it was produced in 1881. It’s mechanically perfect and in great condition overall. Still a wall hanger because of the Damascus barrels, but I do enjoy it still.
Not a wall hanger if you don't mind cleaning black powder
What a steal , congratulations 👍
I just recently got one of the Colt 1878 Hammer Shotguns, with two sets of extra barrels, and a Wells-Fargo stamp (with letter of Provinance). The two extra barrels are that someone wanted a “regular” set of barrels, at 28” long (still Colt, but not dating to the 1880s manufacture of the Shotgun itself), and then another pair of Modern Sawn-down Barrels at 20” (The Colt’s original barrels are 18”). I guess a prior owner got the other shortened barrels so they could shoot modern shotgun rounds through it.
I have also seen a LOT of the Wells-Fargo Coach-Guns in 10g, especially the 1878 Colts. About 50% of the 1878 Colt Hammer guns I have seen at RIA, Morphy’s, and James Julia have been 10g. They have been in immaculate condition for the most part, and the prior owner of the 1878 Colt I bought said that is because they don’t work well with modern rounds, even loaded with Black powder, and they tend to prefer the old Brass-Walled Shotgun shells (been thinking about getting some made just to get a 10g Wells-Fargo Colt Hammer Coach Gun. If I do that, I will likely do some in 12g as well, to go with the other antique Coach Guns/Shotguns I have: Hopkins & Allen, Parker Bros., and a Belgian Gun whose maker I cannot recall).
I was lucky in getting the thing, as they, like everything else, have been seeing 2x to 3x the pre-COVID prices at the Auction Houses. I got the 1878 Colt for only about 10% more than the pre-COVID prices, due to having arranged the trade quite a while ago (He got a Chinese Military SKS from Korea in the exchange - It has some interesting graffiti scratched onto the inner magazine housing, of a North Korean Soldier complaining about Yankees and missing his girlfriend).
All of the older Colts and Winchesters have been seeing INSANE Prices at the Auction Houses since March/April/May or 2020 when things got crazy with COVID (ESPECIALLY the Lever-Action, Terminator II Winchester 1887; and/or the WWI/WWII Winchester 1897 Slide-Action, Hammer Trench/Riot Guns. Even the regular 1897 Winchesters have been going for insane prices, as people will usually buy a second barrel to convert it to look like the older Riot/Trench guns).
RIA was the first to start seeing insane prices, but they started-out being just the Modern AR/AK/SCAR/H&K platforms being ridiculously expensive. Then it was the Vietnam, Korea, and WWII era guns. The Last to start seeing insane prices were the Antiques. I figure that those started to be bought because they don’t require an FFL transfer. Really annoying as they are principally what I collect (Cowboy and 19th Cen Military Guns. The old Pocket-Pistols are the principal focus, but not the sole focus).
Glad to see your involvement with The Great War channel. Looking forwards to your future collaborations with that awesome project.
Some really cool history behind these guns. Was not aware of the Winchester-Colt rivalry. Thanks as always, Ian!
I found an 1878 pattern colt that has been into my family and knew nothing about it so thank you!
Awesome shotgun! I'll never forget seeing you and the boys play at Ozzfest at the Smirnoff Music Center back in '01. Wish you'd get back together and go on tour again, hope Travis is doing ok. Great video. :-)
love your videos Ian, often times the history of the firearms is more interesting then the firearms themselves. Thanks a bunch!
Thank you for giving us a close-up look at the barrels Damascus interesting history thank you
Really interesting story. That's why I love this channel. Thanks.
Loved to hear the history on this video. Great work.
80$ in 1880 is about 1800$ today fyi
certainly top of the line
I wouldn't call $1800 top of the line for a shotgun. I'm not saying a shotgun of that price is low quality, but many current production top tier shotguns sell for well over $5000.
+CPHannigan ty for the Info
+b33lze6u6
If not top of the line close to it, especially when you factor in how people spent money then vs now (less frivolous purchases in those days). Theres more variables though.
@@CPHannigan as a fan of shotguns, more than rifles and pistols, what brand names are you referring to when talking about top of the line? I'm only familiar with Remington and Benelli
Love these...real beautiful in its own way. Love the old school machining.
these damascus barrels as well as the engravings are gorgeous !
Barrels are gorgeous.
+TheFoodnipple Maki's gorgeous too.
-DonkeyKong
The 1883 has a beautiful pattern welded barrell reminds me of the Holland & Holland 4 bores you discussed in another video.
The historical value of your videos are always interesting...
I really enjoy your videos great work .
My dad (since passed) handed down to me his grandfather's Colt Model 1878 12-gauge with Twist steel barrels (and no metal Buttplate on the Buttstock, factory original). For a classic black powder double barrel hunting shotgun, it is a great wall hanger for me.
pattern welding on the hammerless dubble barrel looks really nice
Great review
I was completely unaware that colt made shotguns. Very interesting.
I love guns as I grew up in the era of old western movie's! So many Xmas eves I spent tossing and turning in my bed HOPING Santa would bring me a pair of Roy Rogers pair of colt Cap six shooters . To hold a real Colt six gun would be a dream come true, thanks for your great work!
Cool background knowledge, I hate shady back room deals. Thanks Ian
beautiful!
Among the tangible objects telling the story of history, firearms are far above simple tools and weapons, but almost on par with great works of art in establishing the sophistication and technological prowess of those who made and used them. As advanced as we may think ourselves in the 21st Century with computers and cnc manufacture could we cost effectively for mass production replicate 19th Century guns like these Colt shotguns and the Merwin & Hulbert revolvers ?
Oh!
And in 2016 no-one was paying attention to Colt’s Long-Guns.
That also changed in 2020, when Colt Lightnings that were Medium and Large-Framed (chambered in a variety of .32RF, .38RF, .32Colt/S7W, .38Cold/S&W, .38Spl, .44RF/WCF, .44-40, .45Colt, etc.) started to also go for insane prices compared to pre-2020. Again, likely because the Antique status of many did not require an FFL Transfer.
But I am surprised that the Larger-Framed Colt Lightnings didn’t get more attention in their day as a viable competitor to the Winchester Lever-Action, given that they are capable of being fired slightly faster. I am also surprised that no-one has resurrected the platform to make a modern, magazine-fed Lightning, where it would make for a Novel Tactical Rifle as an option to Semi-Auto.
I can’t recall his name, but in the 00s I ran into a guy who made what were “Steampunk Tactical” 19th Century Cowboy and 19th Cen Military Firearms. They were fitted with wood and brass fittings that looked like a cross being the 19th Century Military Standards, and Modern Military Accessories. They would have brass Picatinny-rails, with custom-made optics and accessories that had that “Steampunk” vibe to them… Something like that would make for an interesting focus for an actual manufacturer.
Doesn't get more elegant than an old exposed hammer shotgun.
Great videos, I would love to see gun lab return.
Interesting bit of history. thanks.
Hey Ian, great channel. Can you do a video on a Beaumont-Adams revolver?
Good video!
I love the detail on the 1883, specially the barrel...
Hi Ian, I cam across this video and it blow me away. I just inherited the one in the back ground. It was my great grandpas. This video was made 7 years ago. Just seeing if there was an appraiser I could get this appraised, Any info would help.
Thank you for a very interesting video. I was looking for information in order to register my great grandfather's Colt, as I did not know which model it was. Turns out it is a 1878. Nice to know a bit of its background history.
register? it's not even legally a firearm in the United States. it's an antique.
Beautiful.
More often than not, the backstory of a gun is more interesting than the gun itself. That is unless it’s the headspace operated rifle (Ian did a video on this. Check it out)
A number of American big gun companies made high quality shotguns besides Parker, Ithaca and Smith .
Hi, I'm really like you'r show and after i had seen this chapter wonder if you have any info about double barrel hammerless The Syracuse Arms Co. NY ???
Colt should go back making shot gun again.
Colt made alot of good shotguns and there are knowledgable collectors. .
Ahhhh the shotgun. My favorite firearm type. 😊😍😚
I never knew that webly sold guns to Winchester but how did colt manage to get rid if the hammer action and put the firing pin on the inside of the gun
hey ian speaking of obscure colt long guns I have a 1864 colt rifled musket from the civil war how much do you think it would be worth and would you ever do a video on one
Would be interesting to know how the 1887 lever action shotgun fits into this Colt Leverguns vs Winchester shotguns debate. Was it another response to something that Colt brought up, or was it seen as something independant of it? As far as i know they weren´t made in huge numbers anyway due to that super long lever pull.
Brilliant!
One boxlock-one sidelock??
Thanks again
Hi Ian. Would you ever feature a Jezail?
He did, possibly after you made this comment. Go check it out, it's awesome!
I own a 1878 Colt in gauge 12.The serial number is 4831.Madeira Island,Portugal.
H&R made A&D box locks under patent from Wesley Richard's. Very high grade ,not necessarily fancy . Remington also made very good shotguns .
Did Colt use London or Belgin or American barrels ? What type of Damascus was used also.
I hope you find a Colt Defender Mark 1 shotgun. Thats another interesting Colt shotgun from a different era...
The classic double-barrel shotgun on the 19th century Western Frontier (1850-1890).
Be sure to view online the NRA video: "Tales Of The Gun: Shotguns"
A settler, pioneer, homesteader, townsman, trapper, farmer, rancher, outdoors- man, miner, prospector , hunter, etc. during the above 19th century Western Frontier era (1850-1890), especially if limited to owning only one firearm , was best served by a double-barrel shotgun. And this continued well into the 20th century. Even today during the
21st century the double-barrel shotgun has it's advocates, including myself. Obviously the first double-barrel shotguns were the percussion muzzle loading shotguns, many of them British, European, and Belgian imports with Damascus "twist" barrels. Later the so called "break open" double appeared: first with outside hammers, then later the classic Anson and Deely box lock "hammerless" action invented by Westley Richards of Birmingham,
England in 1875. Like it's predecessor muzzle loading smooth bore, many of these had the same Damascus or "twist barrels." 10 and 12 gauge were of course the most common. However, market hunters until *1918 often had 8 gauge shotguns. Again, owning only one firearm is what many during these times could afford.
The old T.V. Westerns decades back: Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Big Valley, The Rifleman, often correctly depicted the shotgun in it's proper role on the frontier, farm, trap line, homestead, mining claim, etc. Same for the Little House On The Prairie.
The John M. Browning designed Winchester Model 97 (1897-1957) "hammer" pump shotgun gradually commenced the decline of the double-barrel shotgun in the United States, and probably Canada too. Thankfully for nearly 100 yards modern double-barrel shotguns produced in high strength steels chambered for smokeless powder shotgun shells have superseded the old time black powder shotguns. Unfortunately our nation has become largely urbanized, metro, over populated, cursed with urban sprawl, housing development, free ways, strip malls, shopping centers, etc. The open space has largely disappeared! I guess I was born several generations too late. But there is still hope in the future, especially for the Christian believer. Read in the Bible John Chapter 14:1-6
*In 1918 to outlaw market hunting in America the 8 gauge became illegal. Finally,
don't forget the L.C. Smith double-barrel shotgun via Hunter Arms Co. of Fulton,
New York. Along with Parker Bros, Ithaca, Fox, LeFever, Remington, etc. this was a
top notch American shotgun.
Jim Farmer
Merrill, Oregon in Klamath County
Native Southern Oregonian since
November 1956
James Farmer kool info-thanks-I've put out a question-who made the Greener stagecoach shotguns
I believe the 8 gauge was made illegal with the new not in and of itself. correct me if I'm wrong.
Wow, prices were pretty soft on both unless there was a good deal more wrong with them than I noticed. Wish I had been paying attention back when they were going under the hammer.
Hello, I'd like to know what's the difference betwee the Colt 1878 and the Remington 1889.
Both shotguns are essentially the same and I have no idea how to differentiate one and another.
I wonder if there are some unusual shotgun designs from that era, never delved into that area
I've been told in the time of the Civil War Colt's Manufacturing Company have made a certain amount of military Springfield Model 1861 muskets ordered by the Union Army.
One's barrel seems to have a spiral pattern to it, the other seems to have the imitation of pattern welding on it. Do either of these properties indicate anything about the barrel itself? What was called (obviously incorrectly) "Damascus steel" barrels?
What were those 2 shotguns sold for at the last
Auction? In 2016.?
OH MY GAWDS a Beautiful Damascus style Pattern welded Barrel - DROOLLLLLL
If you ever get your hands on a Blyskawica smg please do a video!!
3:57 Is That a mix of steels, or is this pattern on a barrel just a decoration? I never saw such thing before on a gun barrel.
+Lokfuhrer www.hallowellco.com/damascus_twist_barrels.htm
+Anne Isopod Indeed, it's not Damascus Steel - it's a super-cool method of making gun-barrels from skelp. Its name is the Damascus Method, and the end result is called a Damascus Twist Barrel.
+Anne Isopod Damascus steel is a general term for multiple types of metal combined forming a cool pattern. The actual original way that sort of steel was made in the city of Damascus is forgotten but their method wasn't that unique so when people talk about Damascus steel nowadays they don't mean the exact type of steel they made there but something similar and generally just as good.
***** more or less what I meant. but you phrased it better
Anne Isopod It is indeed Damascus steel. The term applies to the pattern found both in crucible (wootz) steel and pattern welded steels. Crucible steel develops the pattern inherently, and when access to it was lost, medieval metal smiths resorted to pattern welding to replicate the effect. Also, the methodology of creating ancient crucible steel has been known and used in historically accurate smithing for at least the past 20 years.
Three hundred dollars in 1883 is now $7,142.86.
I wish you guys could add some high quality still pictures inline to the video. It is very difficult to see the closeup details with the camera as it is shaky up close and too much movement to get an eye on it. Otherwise keep up the great vids.n
IIRC, in the original Mad Max, the character of Aunt May uses a (albeit very rusty) Cold 1878 shotgun to fend off Toecutter's gang.
According to the late Ian Hogg, Winchesters trump card in the famous deal was several pistol designs he'd had done by Hugo Borchadt who was working for him. Hogg says that Winchester showed Colt the designs and they were so good Colt agreed to the deal. He further says this caused a rift between Winchester and Borchardt that led to him leaving, later to make his name with his own pistol. Supposedly the designs were in Winchester's museum...which makes me wonder whether you'd be able to do an item on them..? (hint, hint..)
I don't think the Borchardt revolvers would have done well commercially. The look long and unwieldy; worse than his C93 pistol.
currently own the 1883, galvanized barrel
Oof that 1883 is gorgeous
I have the 1878 , 3 serial numbers all match .
Forgive my ignorance, but the 1878. Is it double action? Or just single action. I'm kind of interested in the 78. Thanks!
King_Of _Collectibles always single action
Does anyone know why Colt discontinued making shotguns in the 1960's? I heard that it was about a deal between another shotgun maker. Kind of like Colt/Remington deal that was mentioned in the video.
+Chuck Patton They weren't selling.
+GunFun ZS Neither did their 8 barrel Defender Mark 1.
I love you so but everytime I go look up how much the gun cost that you're talking about I could never afford it it's really a bummer because some of the guns are awesome
I got a quicky question. Which style of double barrel came historically first? Under and over or the side by side? I can imagine a blackpowder Double barrel side by side.
It all started out as the fowler, but I think the side by side came first, just because an over/under configuration of a flintlock mechanism would be very hard and impractical.
+highlandrab19 thats true. But a shotgun cartridge has (most of the time) more power and a over/under configuration is weaker than a side by side. Besides (no pun), over/unders are mostly a lot heavier. But this is all speculation, don't take my answer for granted.
+Copster It was side by side(I believe) and they were present since the 15th century matchlocks came around. Here is an example of a triple barreled matchlock from the 1520s/1530s;
www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12712
Thanks for the info.
+Copster Side by side, you just make a left and a right handed lock.
There's less risk of a chain fire as well.
"Winchester got wind of it" all that is just so droll.
I wish someone would make a reproduction of that Colt 1878 SxS, I'd love to have one as a shooter. "coach" guns are everywhere, but as you point out, in real history, not so much! (dang movies!!!)
Coach guns are the best. I do love then.
Oh! And $300 in 1880 would be about $8,000 to $12,000 today.
Beautiful Damascus steel
We have a double barrel shotgun identical to the hammered
Colt Lightning!
Lightning Lightning Lightning
What's your philosophy for shooting Damascus/twist barrel shotguns?
Don't shoot?
Send for proof testing in England?
Shoot light BP loads and hope for the best?
who made the Greener 10gage stagecoach shotguns
Originally W.W. Greener Ltd., England.
Although many Belgium and American gunmakers made 'knock-off' Greeners.
$85.00 to $300.00 in the 1880s is about $2000.00 to $8000.00 today according to a couple of online inflation calculators.
colt shotguns. he didn't mention that the barrels are Damascus and not safe with modern ammo.
James Clasby should be safe with birdshot
Wait... was one of those barrels freaking pattern wielded? No matter they were so high!
Honestly when I thought antique guns I thought Remington and Winchester to be honest.
I was expecting to hear 100-200 but 50-85 damn I forgot ow much stuff has raised.
$85 dollars in 1883 compares to $2023 in 2015. $300.00 in 1883 compares to $742 in 2015.
never new these existed lol
I'm here because I traced the story of the Caldwell shotgun's story from Hunt Showdown to this particular model, its funny that the shady deal actually happened.
$300 in 1883 would cost $7694.46 in 2016.
Think of 100$ in 1880= 2500$ in modern monies. So a 3-400 rifle would be the cost of a small car today.
Zyme86