VW Crafter Camper Van Conversion / Ctek DC to DC Smart Charge Controller Installation

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
  • VW Crafter camper van conversion / Ctek DC to DC Smart charge controller install
    My aim is to give you campervan conversion ideas on how to convert a van into a camper and to help inspire you to build your own tiny home on wheels
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    / @bigvansmallworld
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ความคิดเห็น • 147

  • @BigVanSmallWorld
    @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    My aim is to give you campervan conversion ideas on how to convert a van into a camper. and to help inspire you to build your own tiny home on wheels
    If you found this helpful please consider subscribing to my channel I really do appreciate your support thank you.
    To really help support my channel why no join my member's community and get to see my videos first and without adverts, Don't forget to turn on notifications by clicking the Bell thank you 👍🤓👍
    th-cam.com/channels/72V8FXcD4SIxZx7_P6Ak9g.htmljoin

    • @adammcneill8637
      @adammcneill8637 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      hi mel, im just reading my ctek manual and it says not to install above the batteries as the charger is not spark free, are those agm batteries? is it safe to install above agm as they are fume free? i was hoping to put mine above the battery

  • @gromett
    @gromett 3 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    The fuse is to protect the cable. You have the inline fuse at the wrong end it should be at the source end. If the cable gets damaged and shorted to earth it will become a fire hazard. You really should have connected to the back of the fuse board OR put the inline fuse right at the point where you plug into the fuse board.
    Not often I disagree with how you install stuff but this one is important.

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Thank you I’ll change it in the morning 👍😊👍🤦‍♂️

    • @stevevie4420
      @stevevie4420 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      You can get a fuse jumper connector which is what you need to take a fused supply from that fuse board. Fused at source not the load.

  • @y0rkiebar
    @y0rkiebar ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Nice work Mel. One thing you didn't mention (or I missed it) is that the +ve cable from the starter battery to the DC-DC controller should be protected by a fuse also (another 30A according to the CTEK website). Cheers!

  • @jdleonard1000
    @jdleonard1000 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    MEL YOU shoud have a fuse
    at the start of ignishon feed to protect the long fin wier as well if you dont wont a fire if it was to get damaged

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Thank you that’s absolutely rite 👍

    • @TheHoipoloi
      @TheHoipoloi 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@BigVanSmallWorld The main battery cable should also be fused at BOTH ends. Something like a 120A should be fine.

  • @paulluggar5964
    @paulluggar5964 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Thanks for the videos Mel.
    Just one comment on the switched live from the fuse box under the seat.
    If you fit a fuse at the end of the cable you have an un fused cable going through the van. If that cable is shorted between the fuse box and before the fuse it could potentially glow red hot!
    Please fuse it in the fuse box, better safe then sorry.

    • @colinplummer8970
      @colinplummer8970 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Exactly.... Needs the fuse at fuse box.

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Good point thank you 🙏

    • @stephennaylor9841
      @stephennaylor9841 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      If you are taking power from a fuse box why not simply put the fuse in the fuse box???? Seems to be a total bodge. Anyone in the future will have to look for the fuse rather than finding it in the obvious place. Random.

  • @13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51
    @13yearsaprepperr.jtilbury.51 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    5 amps will be loads Mel its only a signal switching control wire ( me I would have put the fuse as close to the fuse box as possible as you have a meter or so of unprotected wire ,, Great vid buddy

  • @DaveTheDasher77
    @DaveTheDasher77 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You have a way of making things sound simple.
    Great stuff.

  • @serenity_xplorer5176
    @serenity_xplorer5176 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mel watched the video you did about smart alternators I've got 2015 boxer and want to put a split charge in it I've look at the start battery and there no black box on it on the negative side and only one cable on the negative side on the start battery

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      If in doubt fit a DC to DC charge controller they are better and a VSR anyway 👍

  • @UrbanVanlife
    @UrbanVanlife 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    is there a reason you didn't go in trough the back of the board and use a connector and then enable you to use a proper fuse from the board instead of an in line one, . just seems strange to pull off a empty fuse board to then add a fuse

  • @robsimpson7619
    @robsimpson7619 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mel just for info - your videos are coming up on "Google Opinion Rewards" gained me £0.16 👍👍 - good sign pal. Enjoy your channel gives plenty of inspiration 👍

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you buddy that’s kind of you to let me know really appreciate your encouragement and support 👍😊👍

  • @paulsmart7564
    @paulsmart7564 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great stuff. Thanks Mel. 👍

  • @WhipperdeetsAdventures
    @WhipperdeetsAdventures 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thanks bud for a detailed video there extremely helpful:) think I might stick with the ring dc to dc still need to get that tho not great taking the batteries out to fully charge them at home and put them back in again :( but it’s ok and be finally nice to see the electrics neatly mine at the moment is no where are neatly as yours mel and this nice crafter :) you’re been a massive help inspire and look up to you :) thank you for taking the times to make these great videos :)

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you that’s so much appreciated really kind of you 👍😊👍

    • @WhipperdeetsAdventures
      @WhipperdeetsAdventures 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@BigVanSmallWorld would it be ok next year, if I can ask for help with install a 2nd skylight and insulation for a wood stove? :) would be really appreciated if you can :)

  • @wayne1243
    @wayne1243 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great job as always Mel.👊 You are a clever little shunt 🤣

  • @stephenstudd3537
    @stephenstudd3537 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very informative, easy to follow, thank you.

  • @DetailedByAndrew
    @DetailedByAndrew 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks Mel, another great informative video!

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you buddy that’s really appreciated 👍

  • @Gasmaskratto
    @Gasmaskratto 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    missed you mel! glad to see your vids again , am looking at car lessons so i can get a van in the future for now i ride around on my motorbike but i really want a van! your vids give so many ideas

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you that’s really kind of you to say good luck with your driving lessons must be freezing on a bike this time of year 👍😊👍

    • @Gasmaskratto
      @Gasmaskratto 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@BigVanSmallWorld i dont mind the cold its the wet roads that scares me haha

  • @robertlee3734
    @robertlee3734 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    nice one mal you make so easy

  • @Detectordude
    @Detectordude 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Another great tutorial 👍

  • @gordonmansfield7536
    @gordonmansfield7536 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Mel you are the man mate totally blown my head 😂

  • @rickardenstedt
    @rickardenstedt 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Ignitionfeed!!!! You never showed how you connected that little red cable for the smart alternator!!! 😱 It should probably go to the fusebox connected with a piggy back connection, right? But how did you find a fuse that ignite when you turn the car key? Please Mel, show us! Regards Rickard from Sweden ,your buddy 😊

  • @chuffer25
    @chuffer25 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Always enjoy your videos Mel, just a couple of "nits" to pick, you were referring to positive and negatives as lives and neutrals, Mr Virgo also fell foul of this too so you are in good company, but if you're making instructional videos you have to be spot on , the uninitiated may join positives to mains lives , taking what you say literally, obviously potentially fatal so really important to be correct. As the other poster said, the fuse should be upstream as far as possible, and of a rating to protect the thinnest wire it is feeding, the wire at the controller looked really thin, possibly even a 1 amp fuse may have been pushing it, always best to start low and increase fuse size only if you have to, and up to the rating of your thinnest wire. Also if you are making connections which are non standard maybe leave wiring diagram info for future fault finding for the poor sod who has to fault find anything going wrong... all the best mate, keep doing the videos....

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for the advice really appreciated

  • @anothercampervanchannel
    @anothercampervanchannel ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Aye up, so why didn't you show the procedure of putting the wire into the ignition? I've ordered a b2b charger and know that this is going to be part of the process. It might be simple, but so am I so need to see how it's done 🤣

  • @jonsalisbury673
    @jonsalisbury673 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Any chance you can show where you connected the ignition feed, and how.... I have a vw crafter. many thanks....

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  24 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Sorry we didn’t have this van anymore

  • @patricklindahl868
    @patricklindahl868 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The negative from the charger to battery negative only has to be max 2,5 mm2, It's only used to set a referens negative level. The current runs through the other (positive) cables.

  • @patrickjobling8676
    @patrickjobling8676 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Gotta tellya mate that was all very negative at first ...burrrt then it got all positive..amazingkts .. im thinkin i.ll need one of them tharr fancy psychiatric coontrollers .. its gotta wanna install its self .. 😂🤣😂..and im always up furr a good shunt ..excellent report mate ..😍😎😁pip pips and carryon pilgrim

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      G Day mate thanks for the encouragement and the advice keep on shunting 😂😂👍

    • @patrickjobling8676
      @patrickjobling8676 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@BigVanSmallWorld .. im here all week ..😁

  • @aberdeendeltaforce
    @aberdeendeltaforce 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Bloody hell mel, stop fidgeting around so much, making me dizzy, trying to look at the ctec controller and your waving it around like a lasso, quality vid as usual though, cheers 👍🍺

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Haha 😆

    • @DroneHDTV
      @DroneHDTV 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes it like the price is right with lesley crowther in the 90s like a game show is going to start lol

  • @wayneturner7678
    @wayneturner7678 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    which live feed did you use in the fuse box ///great vid

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I’m sorry I can’t remember 🤷‍♂️

  • @penguinpeter85
    @penguinpeter85 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sorry Mel . I have just wired main engine battery into my solar charger control. Which is connected to solar Panals on roof if that helps

  • @minisurfboardscouk
    @minisurfboardscouk 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video Mel mate

  • @hunter00047
    @hunter00047 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Always keep the fuse near the source (the fuse box), if the wire in the vid gets shorted before it reaches the load you could have a fire 🔥.

  • @in-the-vanpeter5157
    @in-the-vanpeter5157 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This Ctek unit is really good but do you think the ring one you used is better ? Great video and presented better than a pro.

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I would definitely use ring over Ctek 👍😊👍

  • @chrisstone4919
    @chrisstone4919 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Nice vid mel

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you Chris really appreciated 👍🍻👍

  • @rickardenstedt
    @rickardenstedt 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Mel, that's brilliant! But my solar panel deliver 45 voltage so this ctek charge only show 23 voltage. Please give me the information where to buy that Ring charger you set up in your van... it allows 50 voltage i remember. Regards Rickard from Sweden

  • @bathfun
    @bathfun 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Another entertaining and informative video. Thanks

  • @peterrider3471
    @peterrider3471 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Mel I’ve got a 120w solar panel wired to a double controller for my leisure battery I want to wire the second port to my vehicle battery any ideas how I can do this and what wire will I need plus what fuse I’d appreciate your help mate many thanks

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hay Peter I’m sorry mate I don’t understand the question everything you need to know about the controller you have should be in the manual that came with it good luck 🤞

    • @peterrider3471
      @peterrider3471 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks Mel all I’m doing is running a cable from my controller to my leisure battery just need to know what size cable I should use

  • @ianschofield7350
    @ianschofield7350 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Great video , just to let you know the eBay link to the battery monitor doesn’t work 😊

  • @tilly1950
    @tilly1950 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mel. You know you stuff nice work as allways Robbie U K

  • @dudeleboski2692
    @dudeleboski2692 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mel, does the “Ignition Feed” mean constant feed Ie. the Cigarette Lighter?

  • @begibobokhidze2005
    @begibobokhidze2005 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hello.I have one question and please help me to understand it .I bought CTEK D250SE for my camper. And now I have to choose battery for my system.when I read recomedations of manifactures they said that below 100 ah you need D250SE with SMARTPASS. Cant i have only D250SE for 110 ah battery system?

  • @897aa33
    @897aa33 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Hi Mel. On your previous solar install you have used adhesive to glue the solar. I thinking to use same method would you approve or was there any issues please? Thanks

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi yes it’s all ok as far as I know it’s still on the roof 👍😊👍

  • @malcolmrowe5031
    @malcolmrowe5031 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The fuse should be as close to the power source as possible, I'd put it in the fuse box personally! The fuse protects the cable, you've now got 6ft of unprotected wire!

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you 🙏

    • @_PGT
      @_PGT 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Totally agree to that, if that wire gets trapped it will glow red hot and cause a fire before it melts through!
      Fuse as close as possible to supply!

  • @theonlywoody2shoes
    @theonlywoody2shoes 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I saw that you used the locking washers and nuts supplied with the batteries, but what about the connections onto the front of the CTek - do these have some sort of locking function too? Another great video thanks.

  • @rogerrabbit6522
    @rogerrabbit6522 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Mel, shouldn't the shunt go between the battery neg and all other negs so that it can monitor both charge and discharge current? Ideally fit a main neg busbar and run charge and discharge negs to/from that with the shunt between the busbar and battery neg.

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I’m just going buy what it says in the instructions I’ll have to have another look maybe I missed something thank you 😊

  • @deranocasper
    @deranocasper 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hello Mel have you any videos about AC-DC for the campervan cheers

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi the only AC I have in my van is from the power stations I use I’m currently using and testing the Bluetti AC200MAX

  • @steveapop
    @steveapop 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi There,
    Thank you for the video...I'm installing a ctek as a upgraded replacement for a split charge durite system. My query would be, is it ok to run the negative from the ctek to the negative on my leisure battery (which is ground) or would it be best to run the ctek negative to a grounding point on the van. Just fumbling my way through it at the moment and wasn't quite sure.
    Also my set up doesn't have a smart alternator so im thinking the thin red wire wouldn't need connecting to anything? Just the black and red one to earth.
    Thanks again for your time and effort 👍

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I’m not sure without looking at the book and I don’t have it to hand at the moment sorry

  • @martinahardaker8739
    @martinahardaker8739 23 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    So a smart alternator can be used with a lithium iron phosphate battery. Just very confusing to the novice trying to understand charging systems for a leisure battery.

  • @orangealpine5267
    @orangealpine5267 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video Mel, would it not be better to solder a wire into the back of the fuse box and make the connection there

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you and no I just wanted to keep it simple

  • @imkierantalbot
    @imkierantalbot 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Mel,
    I have read that the max open circuit voltage from the CTEK is only 23v. How would you wire up say 2 x 100w solar panels in series or parallel? Thanks!!

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi Kieran I would go Parallel like I have on my van and I got 2 160W panels 👍🤓👍

  • @David_11111
    @David_11111 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Yay

  • @robwebster7406
    @robwebster7406 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for the vid 👍 and have you connected the 12 volt ground of the van to neutral of the dc to ac inverter 🤔

  • @barry-cq4xg
    @barry-cq4xg 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Mel. Nice video

  • @andyfletcher154
    @andyfletcher154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    ❤️💙❤️💙❤️💙#supportvanlifers

  • @penguinpeter85
    @penguinpeter85 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Mel, think I enjoyed that ha ha 👍🏻 bit above my level mate. Mel , I have fitted solar 100 wt and run cable into charger control?, then run wire from my engine main battery to battery connector on charger control,so my engine battery will get some charge when standing for long periods . Have I done that right mate, and what happens when I have my engine running and alternator kicks in. Is that ok or do I have to disconnect from main battery when on journeys. Ta mate
    Penguin peter 🐧🐧

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Going by what you’re saying you have joined your main battery to the house battery so yes your solar and alternator will charge both but you will also drain both too you need to separate the batteries with a split charge relay 👍🍻

  • @shazdaz
    @shazdaz 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Mel, I've watched all your videos in the past & just watched this again to find out where to connect the red wire. Unfortunately you didn't show that part, gutted as this is what I wanted to find out? Could you tell me which fuse number you connected the red wire to in the main fuse box above near side wheel arch in the Crafter? Cheers
    🤘😎

    • @matthewmoore9301
      @matthewmoore9301 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi mate, th-cam.com/video/8gu0Th2u2Yg/w-d-xo.html about the 8 min mark :)

  • @eamonn7777
    @eamonn7777 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Mel, I would like to seek your advise / recommendations re the best SatNav devices.
    I am currently planning an extended trip to Europe in my self build Sprinter, I would like to know if you would recommend a dedicated sat-nav device of a Android tablet with GPS running Google Maps ? I am leaning towards a Tablet with GPS and limited wifi connection, what device / model would you recommend ?

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I actually use a Tom Tom truck nav I used it for work when I was truck driver I can set hight with and weights of the truck it’s the only one I’ve ever used and it’s great but expensive 👍

    • @eamonn7777
      @eamonn7777 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@BigVanSmallWorld Thank you. for your reply / advise, please keep up with the excellent videos

  • @davidmeadowcroft7626
    @davidmeadowcroft7626 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great vid Mel. Think I understand it but will watch again to make sure. What was the multitool you were using btw

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you it was just a Allen key set 👍😊👍

  • @birdie2202
    @birdie2202 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    mel..... what kind of screw driver where you useing.........

  • @LukesVanLife
    @LukesVanLife 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey buddy. Good vid. Question what amp rated cabling did you use on the batteries?

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      16mm 110amp way over the top but safe Ctek recommended 10mm 30amp but I wasn’t happy with that as there’s going to be an inverter added later 👍🍻

  • @stevehlife4933
    @stevehlife4933 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi mate what Gage wire did you use and how do you crimp the ends for the mail battery wire ?

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi I used 16mm 110 amp and use crimping tool 👍

  • @trfeatonby
    @trfeatonby 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Mel, do you still recommend your Ring DC to DC charger with solar connections?

  • @neilbarnett3537
    @neilbarnett3537 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Looks like you have linked to your shower video and not the Ring video

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Oh wonder what happened there I’ll have a look that thanks for letting me know 👍

  • @rogerfaulknershomefromhome4458
    @rogerfaulknershomefromhome4458 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    11.6volts van battery is low

    • @Bigchaser01327
      @Bigchaser01327 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Agree..... but the multi meter is a very cheap unit, probably not calibrated.

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Well spotted

  • @David_11111
    @David_11111 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    where is that fuse !

  • @Bigchaser01327
    @Bigchaser01327 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The BMV shunt is wired incorrectly

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I did it exactly as the diagram shows

    • @keithchad661
      @keithchad661 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@BigVanSmallWorld negative from dcdc needs to go through shunt

    • @Bigchaser01327
      @Bigchaser01327 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@keithchad661 Agree, currently the monitor will not function correctly.........

  • @joesalemi2414
    @joesalemi2414 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    U didn’t show “the hardest part”. WTF?

    • @BigVanSmallWorld
      @BigVanSmallWorld  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      What’s the hardest part iv got to fit another one soon I’ll make sure I show you if you let me know 👍

    • @joesalemi2414
      @joesalemi2414 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@BigVanSmallWorld yes, you identified the ignition connection as the hardest part and then didn’t show how or where to connected it.

  • @strongandco
    @strongandco 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    eh? the because the fuse next to a fuse that is only live with the ignition, it's really "as simple as that?" Come on Mel. You used to try to be as informative as possible where as recently you seem to be making videos that just appear to be making jobs seems simple.

  • @kellymelrose8527
    @kellymelrose8527 ปีที่แล้ว

    is this to be only used with a smart alternator ??