So I made this mistake and I'm dealing with the inconsistency of having a relay and not a charger. Can I buy a charge controller to put inline with the relay or do I need a DC to DC charger?
@@TheKnightrunners Hey, good question. So you don't want a charge controller (solar) because the voltages it deals with will be different. You want a DC-DC charger that's made for 12 volts in and out (assuming your rear batteries are 12V). You can put it downline from the relay (between relay and rear system), or better to take the relay out and add it to the circuit where the relay was. Hope that helps, good luck with it!
I had my van converted by a company, they only put a split relay in and because I'm off grid always I've had fuses melting constantly, local caravan man explained why as you have but didn't suggest a charger, just to tick engine over each day to charge up. am not quite sure what I need to get someone to do, is it replace the relay with some sort of charger or add some sort of chsrger to the wiring? sorry for not understanding this stuff.
If you still have to run a ignition line from the victron then why not get the renogy. I was going to go with the victron all because i didnt have to run a ignition line because it "picks" up whether the engine is on/off
00:00 Intro 00:40 Using a relay instead of a more expensive charger 08:58 Importance of ignition control voltage sensing relay 13:59 Making sure connections are tight 15:25 + BONUS Importance of placement of washers in electrical connections Thanks for the info!
Oh yea! Double check to assure you have tightened all the connections. I speak from experience when I say, this is important. I connected an Orion DC Charger and didn't tighten one of the lugs and by the time I noticed it, you could tell it was getting plenty HOT! Thanks for sharing and thanks for the advice.
Few automotive alternators can handle 60amp+ load continuous on top of their normal loads - you need at least 120a alternator before considering a 40a Dc to Dc charger or it will run hot - Alternators are rated as peak power at higher revs - at lower revs their cooling fans are not as effective - its at lower revs your alternator works hardest - Some of the more expensive chargers have an alternator temperature sensor which feathers back the current if the temperature rises too high
Adding an external alternator regulator to a specialized alternator, such as Balmar or Electromax, addresses these issues. These devices add temp sensing for the batteries and alternator, and the alternators are designed to output high current at high idle engine rpms.
I read and build a few vehicles thus many alternators are rated at idle too. Companies such as national give excellent guidance and instruction for instructions. Most new vehicles regulate power and won't run at 14 volts. Anyone cooking wires though is just running on inexperience.
I have used a relay forever . I'm looking to ditch the lead acid and go lithium . I will have to have a dc to dc charger . Thanks for the great video. I haven't used fuses in years .I use circuit breakers got sick of not having the fuses I needed if they blow .
Glad you enjoyed the video! That is telling that you needed the resettable circuit breakers due to overloads. That has been my experience with the relays as well. Thanks for tuning in.
I have been looking for exactly this information for a long time. Thank you for the concise and easy to understand explanation. Saved me lots of time digging for this.
When considering these things you should always think about your start battery, the RENOGY 50 charges your start battery from solar once the "house" batteries are fully charged. I've been using this system for over 2 years and it works fine. I don't think any other "off the grid" charging mod does that!
I completely don't understand what fears you're trying to instill in people. I'm pretty sure your video was financed by Victron, and you definitely don't have any understanding of electrical systems. Those DC-DC chargers are heavily overpriced. Take a look at PowMR hybrid solar charge modules, which have everything in one package for half the price of a DC-DC charger. Or am I missing something?
I'll second that. The dcc50s is an excellent device. The auto sensing incoming voltage and adjusting its output so it doesn't flatten the vehicle battery works well. If you get the remote panel you can adjust the maximum charge current. I have on my narrowboat. If the alternator belt starts to slip I can reduce the load until I'm moored up. Also reduce the current on hot days so it doesn't cook anything.
I run a Genesis dual battery system in my Tundra, running 2Awg wire to the back to a portable home made solar battery bank, 2 100amp 12v batteries in parallel, with a 2000 watt renology inverter, I do have a Renology 40amp DC to DC charger but may just have that on standby as I believe the Genesis system should be able to charge the batteries safely off the auxilary battery in the front
I can add a little data to this discussion. We have a 2014 Navion RV on a MB 3500 Sprinter chassis which is also VERY popular for van conversions. When I switched to 280Ah lithium house batteries I tested the current from the alternator and it was about 40A with Li batteries @ 50% charge running through the "marginal" OEM charging solenoid. MB Sprinter techs suggest 40A as an acceptable charge rate so I thought things were within tolerances. Sadly the OEM solenoid was partially fouled and some days no battery charging would happen. I upgraded to a Cole-Hersee solenoid and again tested alternator charging to 50% Li house batteries. Eeek! 91 AMPS. That is going to be a huge problem and put my entire charging circuit at risk. I installed the Victron Orion 12/30 DC>DC charger and re-tested for charging current: 31 Amps with very consistent voltage and Lithium charge profile to my 280Ah Li battery bank. This will protect the alternator and charging circuit, and offer the best charging profile to keep my house batter bank healthy and topped off. A win-win!
Thank you for this. My renogy charger caught on fire and all this was helpful in explaining. One thing I would add on is ventilation and air flow or spacing of the device is important too which is why my charger caught on fire.
Ross thanks for your well explained you tube video’s I have watched you tube videos for the last four years and was not fully understanding. I not only need for a van build I also need to use solar off grid on farm/ranch in a rural remote setting. So my understanding of solar and the understanding the multiple Victron Energy components is also very important. Ross in one of your photos you used in of your Alternator charging emails showed the writing of two Victron inverters to the battery bank. A smaller Victron inverter for low voltage for 24/7 or for night use with a low draw. I think you used 275 volt 12 watt. You had three 100 AH Battle Born Batteries 12 volt. At the present time I am checking in to understanding if a 500 watt inverter would power my low volt 24/7 and/or over night Energy needs or if that would be to high? I do know during solar hours hours a higher watt inverter would be needed. In the pasted I hatched eggs in a incubator and what hurt me is when the power grid went down I never did know long grid power would be down when the power grid went down all I could do is cover the incubators with blankets. In the past my incubation season started February 1 to November 1. Also I want to design a system more like a power bank system that solar panels can be added to. One area that I am also confused on is understanding and knowing more about 12 volt,24 volt,48 volt systems. And which one would be the best for me. One area where there is internet confusion is over and understanding the extra power boost needed for start up needs of power tools. I know I am leaning more towards 24 volt system with my limited understanding I do not know for sure. I do know for main central off grid system for agriculture a 48 system would work better. I am trying to understand for small remote and not integrated stand alone solar energy a 12 volt system possibly might work. I also know and understand truly to understand solar I have to do more that read about it and watch you tube videos I know a person learns a lot in the process of activity building a system.
Very comprehensive and informative, thanks for heads up!. I want to start a campaign were we call it 'Park Power', not 'Shore Power' as we are Vanlubbers, and not in boats on shore.😉
Thanks Will, great to hear you got something out of the video! I agree, shore power is a little bit of a borrowed term. Not sure why the RV industry adopted it...
i have read alot of reports on the victron having melt downs burned wires. I think they should recommend ferrule fittings on the end of the wires. thank you
Thanks for weighing in, I think it is probably due to loose connections. As mentioned in the video, I had to go back and tighten my connections as they got loose after the initial tightening. I can see how they might get hot if people are not going back and re-tightening things after the initial install. Thanks for tuning in and for sharing your thoughts!
Thanks for sharing, the best video regarding this item. Very clear and educstive. Is there any requierment for the max Amps of the controler (as shown here 30 Amps) and the max Output Amps of the alternator ? Regarding the swich fuse, the connection to the controler should be after the swich fuse ?
The problem with using an ignition control wire is that if you have the vehicle ignition in the on position with the engine off the charge will turn on. It'd be best to pair both the voltage detection and ignition control wire if you are worried about the voltage detection failing. With how the Orion is currently programmed that would mean adding another relay or contactor between your vehicle battery and the Orion.
This isnt a problem. For Redarc and Kings dcdc controllers, when the ignition on wire method is used, they will only turn on >12v, and will still turnoff
@@BarnicleBill Ok thanks Bill. I will have to look into these isolators, I frankly don't have much knowledge of them. Everything I do is lithium these days, so I'm not sure if it would work, but I can look into it. Thanks for bringing these to my attention!
Good advice for DC-DC charging from the vehicle alternator. If you are using a second alternator to charge your coach battery, consider converting the battery and inverter to 24V or 48V. The current will be 1/2 or 1/4 respectively, and you can get a 24V or 48V converter to power the 12V coach accessories. Actually there are more 48V alternators to choose from and it's about the same cost so there's not much reason to use 24V, unless you don't have enough solar to power 48V (solar cell voltage must be 5V greater than the highest battery voltage - you typically need at least 4 panels in series)
Hi Ross great video and very clear thanks. I’ve just bought a Victron smart charger 12/12 18 to charge a portable 100ah LiFPo battery pack but I also have an existing set up with relay for the second AGM battery built into my truck. I’m thinking that I could use another Victron charger to charge that and remove the relay. I’m wondering how best to wire these up and if I fit a switch to swop from one to the other or just let them both run in parallel? Have you done anything like this? Many thanks
Hey Landykart, thanks for tuning in and for the question. I have to charge for stuff like this as it would take a sketch and a discussion. www.rosslukeman.com/offerings Thanks
Thanks for the information. The only thing I am missing on the Orion is that you can't configure the maximum current output. For use in a caravan the limiting factor is the wiring between the towing vehicle and the trailer/caravan. I basically need a Orion which is limited to 10A or even less. 10A is more than enough for my needs but it adds the needed safety when switching from lead acid to LiFePO4. I heard rumors that Victron is working on a next generation Orion but that can be this year or in 5 years and not getting any information from them is a bit of a let down.
I use one from Renogy, you can configure their dc-Dc chargers on maximum current use and output. I have ther dc-dc mppt charger. With a solar plugged in , it will even trickle charge the starter battery once the rear/home battery is fully charged. It will also make use of all the power from a solar panel first, and the. Use needed additional current from alternator if needed.
Hi Ross thank you for your video most enlightening, I’m looking to install a b2b but only have a 70 amp alternator could I ask what size b2b I could use. Regards Paul
Don't know if you're still in the planning stage or beyond, but my situation with a 90A oem alternator is similar. Don't want to fry the alternator or drain the starter battery. A new unit from Pecron is just now coming to market - the DC1242-500 car charger. I've seen enough to convince me to take the leap. Although it doesn't have a wired connection for separate engine off sensing, it includes that function in its configuration selection via voltage parameters. So, the starter battery is protected from parasitic drawdown and the alternator can be indirectly protected by limits on the operational voltage range. (i.e. slower charge rate) For me, the most demand will be during periods of poor solar productivity, which tend to be cooler. I suppose I'll need to find out how hot the alternator can get before it enters the danger zone!
Great advice! I outfitted a new Transit with the Orion Smart charger without ignition sense, relying on the “engine on/off” detection on the Orion. With Fords smart alternator it’s very tricky to get the Orion to function properly. It either senses low voltage once the alternator voltage drops and cuts out prematurely, or stays on too long after engine shutdown (if you turn down the shutdown voltage settings like I did ). Either way, not a great setup and I wish I would have just installed the ignition sense wire from the get go.
Hi Richard, sorry for your troubles but good to hear your story about problems with the "engine on detection" setting. It's supposed to work with the smart alternators but it sounds like if the settings aren't perfect then it can cause problems. Thanks for sharing!
12v on a switch to the victron so you can decide if you want to charge or not. Pulling amps from alternator is not free, you get higher fuel consumption
I installed a votronic b2b on a 2009 transit without ignition sense as I think it said that the unit dealt with this however if you put your ear to the unit it sounded as if it was working long after the engine was on so I think I'll add a ignition sense wire on my new camper when I install me new b2b.
transit have engine run only trigger wire under drivers seat at side of start battery this is used to trigger a relay because it's negative flick then pass 12v trough relay to victron and away u go turns on off when engine is run only.
I’d love to run a DCDC charger but I have a smaller dual 28Ah (56Ah total) battery bank and the smallest DCDC I’ve found is 20 Amps which is for a minimum of 100Ah battery setup.
Hi Jay, with 56Ah it depends on your battery type. Pretty much any lithium could take up to 28 amps (.5C) while lead-acid would be 5.6 amps (.1C). If you have lithium then the 20 amp charger would be fine. The Sterling brand chargers also have a 1/2 power mode (night mode) that cuts the amperage in half if you need to do that (www.sterling-power-usa.com/batterytobatterychargers.aspx)
All this work is assuming a single alternator. I am planning on installing dual alternator system and really looking for systems that start with that as a base. I want to keep the van chassis and engine electrical generally separate from the house electrical systems, perhaps with some manual switched crossover in and emergency.
I know this video is a couple years ago, but I just had a quick question. If i want to run the cable from my battery back to the driver's rear of the vehicle and then up and over to the passenger rear of the vehicle, will the be problems with a run of that length? Do I need to go with a heavier gauge since the run is a little longer?
Hey there, yes you might beef up that cable gauge because you'll have a larger-than-usual voltage drop and will lose some watts of power due to that. I would use the largest gauge that will fit into your DC-DC charger.
In your description, you say you recommend 2 DC-DC chargers for faster charging and the ability max out each one. Love it, I haven't heard of this before so that's helpful. I have all my Electrical stuff right now and will be getting started installing soon, so I guess I'll order another charger lol.
I like having a small solar panel on my starter battery as well as a Dc-Dc charger installed. This way I can simply leave my van for extended periods and not be concerned about small loads draining the starter battery. Also batteries with solar tend to last longer than batteries with no solar. So it pays for itself. I have no ignition sense wire for 3 years now and it’s been fine. Can’t wait to get back to work on it this winter. We moved and that was so expensive and tiring all Ive done is install a diesel heater.
if you wanted the starting battery to charge 1st......... could you not hook up the DC DC on the secondary battery side of VSR, also putting the ignition on power lead to the actuated secondary battery charge cable side? Thanks Rick
Mistake 3 can be fixed by using ferrules on your wire ends. Not a good idea to use bare wire under the grub/set screws if you want tight connections. Should’ve also mentioned mistake #4: not mounting equipment with spacers to ensure operating temps stay good.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, my name is Ivan and I have a question for you, What happens if the batteries of the Motorhome are 24V lithium and clearly the alternator is 12V? Can this device be connected like this or do you have to use another additional device to change the 12v to 24 first? If a hybrid charger is used, those that have everything integrated, that is, the inverter and the charge controller, would this device connect directly to the lithium batteries without going through the hybrid system? I don't see that it has a DC input, so that the battery could be simultaneously, let's say the solar panels and the alternator. Regards
The newest Renogy DC-DC charger I just installed does NOT have a provision for ignition sensing and atop that, I have a smart alternator. Started charging when I first turned the system on and driving. Now with aux battery sitting at 13.2 volts and the smart alternator limiting starter battery to 12.7 volts, I cannot get the Renogy dc-dc to turn on and continue charging. I guess I could wait and see if I draw power from aux battery and hope the charger requests power from the alt. I dunno if I wanna ask Renogy as I have a bad feeling they have poor tech service but maybe I'll try....
Hi I love watching your videos some I can understand and some I simply can't follow lol but I do love seeing your videos you have great information and you explain really well. So I have a problem and I'm hoping you can help me out with it. So I have the blue smart charger 12v 30amp 3 outputs with the Bluetooth that works great I think lol. Then I have the BVM-712 smart battery monitor and with this product It shows me that my battery voltage is below 10volt but it also shows me that I still have 53% left and I've only used 184amps out of 300amps so I'm very confused. I have 3 100ah lithium battery wired in parallel. Then I also have the orion-Tr smart 12/12/30 isolated dc/dc charger. With this product I see that it's only generating no more then 8amps while the bus is running I have a 2013 ford e450 v10 6.8l with a 225amp alltonater. Is there something in the settings that I need to change? Why aren't I getting a lot of amps from the alltonater?
Saw this video and was going to add one of these to my build. I actually have a 12v cig plug that's ignition powered right next where I'm putting my DC-DC charger. Can't I just use that instead of tapping into a fuse panel?
Quick question. I have a 25 amp dcdc charger that's solar compatible. So when the trucks not running, the solar kicks on. Can I add another solar only 20amp mppt charger so I can run more panels when stoped? I won't be going over the 100amp imput capacity of the 120 lithium battery I have
Great Video! A lot of useful info! What if the alternator I have has a voltage regulator in it, my plan is to use this second alternator to run a wire straight to my secondary batteries, the alternator has a positive and negative connection for the voltage regulator. Do I still need a charge controller, or would using those lines be adequate?
Hi Nicholas, great question. I can't quite tell what you have, so I will say this. Some 2nd alternators are internally regulated to output a flat voltage, say 14.8 volts. You can also get them without internal regulation, where they are intended to be controlled by an external regulator such as a Balmar MC-618-H. This costs about $500 more, but eliminates the need for the DC-DC charger needed to adjust the flat 14.8 volts in the first scenario. The external regulator essentially becomes your multi-stage DC-DC charger, so you're controlling the alternator's output and charging algorithm at the source (at the alternator), instead of sending a voltage to the rear system and having to regulate it back there with a DC-DC charger.
Thanks, Ross, for the video! What are your thoughts on adding a second alternator to charge lithium batteries? Any reason to not do this when a voltage regulator is used? Thanks!
Hi Brad, it's okay to do but may be a bit overkill for most systems. You can expect 170-200 amps out of a 2nd alternator when the engine is cruising at 2000 rpm, and you have to have somewhere to send that amount of power to fully utilize these units. That translates to 170Ah -200Ah of battery charging per hour of driving, or running a rooftop A/C taking 1800-2400 watts. I work at a shop where we put these on vans that are airport shuttles with Dometic Penguin II A/C's, but otherwise the extra $2000 is better spent elsewhere. When you add the voltage regulator such as a Balmar you are looking at closer to $2500 not including install. We have started experimenting with 12-volt air conditioners such as the Kingtec KTD-3 and Dometic RTX 2000, which take up to about 600 watts. Then we can safely power these off of the stock alternator (they only take 600 at full blast, usually it's less). Using 1/3 the power also translates to being able to run these for much longer on batteries with the engine off, and being able to shrink your inverter capacity (DC air conditioners don't need to run through the inverter, just straight off of the batteries). So essentially we've been taking the $2000 and spending it on more expensive 12V air conditioners, instead of the 2nd alternators. Hope that helps! P.S. Pulling 60 amps off of a stock alternator roughly translates to a 60Ah per hour of driving recharge rate for lithium batteries.
Thanks for the info!!! This was a very insightful video. I have dual alternators on the shuttle bus my wife and I just purchased. I’m thinking I’d like to use one for the started batteries and one for the house batteries. Would I be able to just run the the dedicated alternator through a charger like you’re showing and then into the Lithium batteries?
Hey there, thanks for watching, I'm glad that was helpful. On using the alternators as you described, it depends on what the original setup was with the two alternators. If they have old cables intact and connected, you may need to see where they go. If the second alternator is just sitting there with a bolt for the positive line with nothing on it, then yes you can run a line directly to a charger in the back, then connecting the charger to the rear system.
Thanks for this. I'm fairly new to this. I have 2 x 235Ah lead acid batteries in the back. Does that mean I should use 2 x 30a B2B chargers in parallel?
Hi Mike, thanks for tuning in. With the lead-acid batteries, you have to determine how many amps they can take. This is typically 0.1-0.2C (10-20% of capacity). So 0.1C would be 23.5 amps of charging per battery, or 47 amps. If they can take 0.2C charge rate, that would be 94 amps for the both of them. Frankly 60 amps would probably be okay. These days they have a nice 50-amp charger, the Orion XS. It's also reducible down to anything under 50 amps, so you could dial it down as well. I would check out your battery manufacturer's spec sheet to see what kind of charge rate they want for those batteries. Hope that helps, thanks for watching!
I already have a blue sea relay installed in my system. I am upgrading to lithium can I leave the relay in the circuit and add a smart DC to DC charger or remove the relay?
Sorry, I am a little confused about the little green plug. Am I supposed to connect the wire from the ignition into the green plug? Is there a positive/negative side to the plug? If I don't do the ignition option, does the green plug need to remain in the Orion or does it come out, or make no difference? Last question, what if I had a Master disconnect switch between the two batteries, will that provide the same safeguard? Thanks.
Hi Glenn, I don't have a Transit to film with yet, but I can tell you just bolt your positive cable to the Transit connection point, and run it back to your DC-DC charger input. Alternator power located on the driver's seat base, pretty convenient.
Great content, thanks for sharing. I'm upgrading my boat and my plans were to use a victron cyrix VSR (already purchased) to isolate the starter battery but I might have to reconsider now after watching this. Question: why is it ok to charge the starter battery directly off the alternator but not the house batteries? I have AGM batteries for both banks. Would it not be a good idea to have a dc/dc charger between the alternator and starter battery?
Hi Robert, thanks for checking out the video! You don't want to isolate the starter battery from the alternator because when operating the engine and vehicle, the loads on that circuit are never ending. If the engine battery stopped receiving a charge, it would quickly deplete as it fired the spark plugs, ran the vehicle computer, etc. It's under constant load. The batteries in the back are not under constant load typically, so they can get "full" and it's better to back off charging at that point to extend/preserve the life of the rear batteries.
You should not charge the starter battery and the house batteries at the same time from a single charger. You will knacker the batteries and shorten their life. Starter batteries and house batteries have different electrical characteristics and should not be connected in parallel and charged at the same time. If you want to charge both at the same time, you need a separate charger.
As a boat Captain It’s fine to charge the starter batteries and house batteries. I’m not sure what kind of boat or battery banks you have but you can even isolate the house batteries into port and starboard banks. These guys use boating terms like “shore power” but have no idea how it actually all works on a boat. You’ll probably want to add a second alternator to one of your diesels.
What he talks about in the first 2 minutes is what just totalled my truck in a fire. My batteries were at an all time low. Had the truck running charging the batteries while I was in the bathroom the wire from the alternator to my battery bank caught fire and my entire interior was gutted in a major fire.
With an older vehicle (2012 Sienna van) it it best to run the house battery charging only when the vehicle’s engine is above a certain RPM to be sure the alternator doesn’t overheat? Especially if I am running the Renogy dc to dc charger at 40 amps, I use a cut off switch on the dash to turn of the charging if we are stopped and just idling, and I will switch to a lower gear to keep the RPMs up eg when we are on a potholed road going slow. Is that safe, silly or reckless? (FWIW, I’m charging a 100ah LiFePO4 battery)
I've put one 100Ah lithium battery in my fifth wheel. I upgraded my converter to charger the new battery. I did install a 100A shunt and monitor. My question is for when I am towing....what will happen to my alternator on my 96 7.3 PSD? Should I be concerned.
I have an enclosed trailer that I am adding an agm battery to. My tow vehicle is a 2023 Toyota Tundra I force max hybrid. I have a starter battery in the truck. There is a 10ga wire with 12v constant in my 7 pin plug. What should I use to manage the 12v coming through that cable when connecting it to the positive buss bar in the trailer? I do not want an overcharging situation nor do I want the agm battery back feeding the truck when the trailer is connected. I am not able to find anything explaining how this should be done. Thanks to anyone offering help.
If i have an aux switch on a 30 amp fuse (also w a relay) could the aux switch be hooked up to a 30a solar charger for lithium battery? Thinking of running making quick connection for solar at camp and run on aux on the road for charge. Bad idea?
Hey men. I only realised there's two version of this charger 30 and 50 amp. I bought 50 amp and now I worry it will be too much for my old 1992 Ducato motorhome :/ what you think
Hey there, it will probably be okay. I would find out how many amps the alternator is rated for. Allow 40-50 amps to run the vehicle. The remainder is available for charging. However, if you max out your machinery it will not last as long. In the end, a 50-amp charger for most vehicles (with alternators of 120 amps and above) is going to be fine. Considering it's a 1992, you may want to go easy on it, or put in a new alternator if it's the original (or wait until it goes out). Hope that helps!
Hey there, they can overload the alternator is their amperage is too big for said alternator. But generally if you get one with a reasonable amperage for your alternator, it will protect the alternator by limiting the charging to that amperage. Hope that helps, thanks for tuning in!
Great video. We have a travel trailer and upgrading to lithium battery this year. No solar, but we have a 2000w Bluetti solar gen, we use during travel to run fridge on AC. Problem is that it's a power hog and drains battery in 4 hrs. I would like to add some charge while we drive. The gen is limited to 15a charge and 12v or more input. Would this be able drive both batteries as we drive. Don't expect to fully charge just compliment. Driving 2019 F150. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Great video. Really informative. Keep up the good work!
Hi Cal, thanks for watching, it is the Victron Orion 12-12 | 30 amp non-isolated model: amzn.to/3T8PGbc They have a new redesigned 50-amp Orion XS coming out in the Spring of 2024, FYI.
great explanation. I was going to try and use an ACR exactly as you described but decided the B2B would be a better choice, but not for the reasons you elaborated on. Great video.
What is the inline AGU fuse for coming from the Chevy Express fuse box at 12:38? I’m thinking of wiring my amplifier into there instead directly to the battery in my own Express.
Hey there, thanks for tuning in. So that inline device is actually a little breaker, which quality-wise, I no longer trust. I would put something higher-end such as a Blue Sea 187 series DC breaker. If you want to try the one I had, it is this one: amzn.to/3yQ04wS Hope that helps, thanks for watching!
Can vehicle chassis be used as common ground for both "ends", for Transit, Sprinter, etc? Assuming it's directly on the metal and not just on the paint, etc? Saves one bulky and somewhat expensive cable.
Hi Alec, yes the chassis is the common ground, and you are correct, make sure it's metal to metal, with no paint under your cable. You can spray paint over the connection once it's made.
@@rosslukeman Another one... do these play nicely with a solar charger? Or do you need a special unit that connects both the DC-DC and solar charge inputs and makes sense of them?
@@alecfurtado1765 they will play nice with a solar charger. Like two air pumps connected to the same tire, they will each independently conclude when the tire (or battery in this case) is full.
This sounds like a good solution, you would just have to check if you have a smart alternator. Once it temporarily drops voltage, then the isolator would shut down charging. The Orions are programmed to accept this occasional voltage drop. Great insight though.
@@rosslukeman I have set up the Orion. remote.switch function with a simple toggle switch . When we park and.stop the engine I switch the Orion off. We have 600 watts of.solar on the van roof and a lithium battery which has proved sufficient so.far.
If your alternator has external regulator (Balmar) will that help address the issue of using an ACR and battery combiner vs a dc-dc charge converter. (Actually on a boat). AGM starter battery / Lifepo4 house
Brilliant video Ross, seeing as you touched on the subject of starter battery ghost draw, and preventing this with connecting the engine on feed, what would you recommend to add to my system to ensure my starter battery is topped up from leisure batteries when parked up for long periods? I already have two 12/12/30 victron dc to dc chargers connected to supply 60amps to my 400ah lithium battery bank, could I use a third dc todc charger, dedicated to keeping the starter battery topped up? Alarm system, immobiliser etc are powered from starter battery, so it's voltage is dropping all the time. Thanks in advance
Ok so I have a travel trailer camper. Do I still need a ignition wire or am I okay with the way I have it.I don't leave my truck connected at camp site or home.
If it's a trailer I would try to get by with the "engine detection" feature (it detects a rise in voltage on the input cable when the engine/alternator starts). Maybe add the ignition wire if it doesn't perform well with that setting alone.
Can you further comment on exactly how to wire the off/on connector. Which of the 2 wires in the green plug do you hook to power and do you take the jumper wire out or leave it in. From what I understand but am looking for clarity is that you hook 12V to the right side of the plug and take the jumper out? Any comments welcomed and appreciated. Ycasts
I am trying to charge my 24 volt system and have a victron 24-12, do I need a victron 12-24, for charging. Also, will the alternator charge the two lead acid on the truck in addition to the four lithium batteries in my battery bank?
Hello. I have a 2020 Boxer with 20,000 km and the booster doesn't charge me every time and when it charges me it doesn't charge as fast as it should. The battery is a Victron 12.8V Lithium Superpack 100Ah 1280Wh LiFePO4 and the booster is a Victron Orion Tr-smart 12/12-30 non isolated. The times that it charges I see that the input voltage is stuck at 14.4 but there are other times that it does not charge because the voltage that reaches it is lower and also oscillates so that it activates for a few moments but immediately turns off again.
Can you connect a DC to DC charger directly to the alternator? My engine is in the back, and starter battery in the front. I'd like to avoid running a wire from front to back of my van where I want my aux battery.
Yes I think that will be okay. I did it once, hooked 3 of these to a 2nd alternator. They are dead when the engine is off, can't find them on the Victron app until you start the engine.
I haven't quite tried the Renogy units yet. They should be decent but the build quality may not be quite the same. Warranty is a couple of years less. I would try it though, there aren't major red flags, should work okay. Hope that helps-
Does this info relate to alternators with built in voltage regulators? I have an 06 f350 diesel with two batteries and two alternators. I want to dc charge camper batteries.
Hi Jon, thanks for stopping in. Yes pretty much all info discussed in this video pertains to alternators with internal voltage regulators. As long as you can find a good place to pick up that alternator power, then a DC-DC charger such as the one shown in this video would help you regulate that power. Hope that helps-
also i get much better life and discharge rate out of lead acid! and if you have a batt problem they are easier to get when you are in the middle of no where!
I use circuit breakers when I need an on-off functionality, but they can get expensive at the higher amperage ratings. For most things I use fuses. Other than that they're interchangeable. Hope that helps-
On the cheap. LOL No solar! Can't I just use a solar charger 12v sys,15, 20, to 30amp. And hook auto alternator battery to PV input with a on and off switch, output to Aux battery and set your chem. on what type battery. Seems like that would work just fine with out over charging and take care of back flow. I am an electrician, but this is not my field.
Hey Garner, good question. The problem is typically that the input voltage ranges are different between these chargers and solar chargers. Solar chargers have a higher input voltage range and function differently. Solar chargers are also set up for things like day/night that are foreign to DC-DC chargers, which have "ignition on" detection. They are different animals, I would get the right product unless you just want to experiment and see what happens.
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So I made this mistake and I'm dealing with the inconsistency of having a relay and not a charger. Can I buy a charge controller to put inline with the relay or do I need a DC to DC charger?
@@TheKnightrunners Hey, good question. So you don't want a charge controller (solar) because the voltages it deals with will be different. You want a DC-DC charger that's made for 12 volts in and out (assuming your rear batteries are 12V). You can put it downline from the relay (between relay and rear system), or better to take the relay out and add it to the circuit where the relay was. Hope that helps, good luck with it!
I had my van converted by a company, they only put a split relay in and because I'm off grid always I've had fuses melting constantly, local caravan man explained why as you have but didn't suggest a charger, just to tick engine over each day to charge up. am not quite sure what I need to get someone to do, is it replace the relay with some sort of charger or add some sort of chsrger to the wiring? sorry for not understanding this stuff.
sorry me again, was thinking of changing to lithium batteries to help, do they need the charger instead of the relay also? thank you for any help
If you still have to run a ignition line from the victron then why not get the renogy. I was going to go with the victron all because i didnt have to run a ignition line because it "picks" up whether the engine is on/off
00:00 Intro
00:40 Using a relay instead of a more expensive charger
08:58 Importance of ignition control voltage sensing relay
13:59 Making sure connections are tight
15:25 + BONUS Importance of placement of washers in electrical connections
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for checking it out Krysta! I like your channel!
Oh yea! Double check to assure you have tightened all the connections. I speak from experience when I say, this is important. I connected an Orion DC Charger and didn't tighten one of the lugs and by the time I noticed it, you could tell it was getting plenty HOT! Thanks for sharing and thanks for the advice.
You need to find the 'Engine running' D+ connection, not an 'Ignition on' connection. Many vans have a D+ specifically for this purpose.
Few automotive alternators can handle 60amp+ load continuous on top of their normal loads - you need at least 120a alternator before considering a 40a Dc to Dc charger or it will run hot - Alternators are rated as peak power at higher revs - at lower revs their cooling fans are not as effective - its at lower revs your alternator works hardest - Some of the more expensive chargers have an alternator temperature sensor which feathers back the current if the temperature rises too high
Adding an external alternator regulator to a specialized alternator, such as Balmar or Electromax, addresses these issues. These devices add temp sensing for the batteries and alternator, and the alternators are designed to output high current at high idle engine rpms.
Totally agree. For peace of mind though. I would install a 100-120amp alternator as part of a good van build.
I'd like more information about those "temp sensing" dc to dc chargers .... ???
I read and build a few vehicles thus many alternators are rated at idle too. Companies such as national give excellent guidance and instruction for instructions.
Most new vehicles regulate power and won't run at 14 volts. Anyone cooking wires though is just running on inexperience.
Do they sell those at your average auto supply stores ? @@bicanoo_magic3452
I have used a relay forever . I'm looking to ditch the lead acid and go lithium . I will have to have a dc to dc charger . Thanks for the great video. I haven't used fuses in years .I use circuit breakers got sick of not having the fuses I needed if they blow .
Glad you enjoyed the video! That is telling that you needed the resettable circuit breakers due to overloads. That has been my experience with the relays as well. Thanks for tuning in.
I have been looking for exactly this information for a long time. Thank you for the concise and easy to understand explanation. Saved me lots of time digging for this.
When considering these things you should always think about your start battery, the RENOGY 50 charges your start battery from solar once the "house" batteries are fully charged. I've been using this system for over 2 years and it works fine. I don't think any other "off the grid" charging mod does that!
I have a renogy 40amp dc to dc , will that charge the starter battery ? It’s hooked to my bank, which is hooked to solar ?
I completely don't understand what fears you're trying to instill in people. I'm pretty sure your video was financed by Victron, and you definitely don't have any understanding of electrical systems. Those DC-DC chargers are heavily overpriced. Take a look at PowMR hybrid solar charge modules, which have everything in one package for half the price of a DC-DC charger. Or am I missing something?
I'll second that. The dcc50s is an excellent device. The auto sensing incoming voltage and adjusting its output so it doesn't flatten the vehicle battery works well. If you get the remote panel you can adjust the maximum charge current. I have on my narrowboat. If the alternator belt starts to slip I can reduce the load until I'm moored up. Also reduce the current on hot days so it doesn't cook anything.
I run a Genesis dual battery system in my Tundra, running 2Awg wire to the back to a portable home made solar battery bank, 2 100amp 12v batteries in parallel, with a 2000 watt renology inverter, I do have a Renology 40amp DC to DC charger but may just have that on standby as I believe the Genesis system should be able to charge the batteries safely off the auxilary battery in the front
Ross this is just what I needed to here I was not
Comfortable with this system until we found you
Awesome George, glad to hear that helped clear things up for you!
I can add a little data to this discussion. We have a 2014 Navion RV on a MB 3500 Sprinter chassis which is also VERY popular for van conversions. When I switched to 280Ah lithium house batteries I tested the current from the alternator and it was about 40A with Li batteries @ 50% charge running through the "marginal" OEM charging solenoid. MB Sprinter techs suggest 40A as an acceptable charge rate so I thought things were within tolerances. Sadly the OEM solenoid was partially fouled and some days no battery charging would happen. I upgraded to a Cole-Hersee solenoid and again tested alternator charging to 50% Li house batteries. Eeek! 91 AMPS. That is going to be a huge problem and put my entire charging circuit at risk.
I installed the Victron Orion 12/30 DC>DC charger and re-tested for charging current: 31 Amps with very consistent voltage and Lithium charge profile to my 280Ah Li battery bank. This will protect the alternator and charging circuit, and offer the best charging profile to keep my house batter bank healthy and topped off. A win-win!
This is an excellent write-up Dave. Thanks for sharing your findings!
Thank you for this. My renogy charger caught on fire and all this was helpful in explaining. One thing I would add on is ventilation and air flow or spacing of the device is important too which is why my charger caught on fire.
Why I will never buy Renegy Chinese junk. Way to many problems beyond panels.
Ross thanks for your well explained you tube video’s I have watched you tube videos for the last four years and was not fully understanding. I not only need for a van build I also need to use solar off grid on farm/ranch in a rural remote setting. So my understanding of solar and the understanding the multiple Victron Energy components is also very important.
Ross in one of your photos you used in of your Alternator charging emails showed the writing of two Victron inverters to the battery bank. A smaller Victron inverter for low voltage for 24/7 or for night use with a low draw. I think you used 275 volt 12 watt. You had three 100 AH Battle Born Batteries 12 volt.
At the present time I am checking in to understanding if a 500 watt inverter would power my low volt 24/7 and/or over night Energy needs or if that would be to high? I do know during solar hours hours a higher watt inverter would be needed.
In the pasted I hatched eggs in a incubator and what hurt me is when the power grid went down I never did know long grid power would be down when the power grid went down all I could do is cover the incubators with blankets. In the past my incubation season started February 1 to November 1.
Also I want to design a system more like a power bank system that solar panels can be added to.
One area that I am also confused on is understanding and knowing more about 12 volt,24 volt,48 volt systems. And which one would be the best for me. One area where there is internet confusion is over and understanding the extra power boost needed for start up needs of power tools. I know I am leaning more towards 24 volt system with my limited understanding I do not know for sure. I do know for main central off grid system for agriculture a 48 system would work better. I am trying to understand for small remote and not integrated stand alone solar energy a 12 volt system possibly might work.
I also know and understand truly to understand solar I have to do more that read about it and watch you tube videos I know a person learns a lot in the process of activity building a system.
Very comprehensive and informative, thanks for heads up!. I want to start a campaign were we call it 'Park Power', not 'Shore Power' as we are Vanlubbers, and not in boats on shore.😉
Thanks Will, great to hear you got something out of the video! I agree, shore power is a little bit of a borrowed term. Not sure why the RV industry adopted it...
@@rosslukeman So from now on call it park power, you will be a trend setter and keep up the great work brother!
i have read alot of reports on the victron having melt downs burned wires. I think they should recommend ferrule fittings on the end of the wires. thank you
Thanks for weighing in, I think it is probably due to loose connections. As mentioned in the video, I had to go back and tighten my connections as they got loose after the initial tightening. I can see how they might get hot if people are not going back and re-tightening things after the initial install. Thanks for tuning in and for sharing your thoughts!
Thanks for sharing, the best video regarding this item. Very clear and educstive. Is there any requierment for the max Amps of the controler (as shown here 30 Amps) and the max Output Amps of the alternator ? Regarding the swich fuse, the connection to the controler should be after the swich fuse ?
The problem with using an ignition control wire is that if you have the vehicle ignition in the on position with the engine off the charge will turn on. It'd be best to pair both the voltage detection and ignition control wire if you are worried about the voltage detection failing. With how the Orion is currently programmed that would mean adding another relay or contactor between your vehicle battery and the Orion.
This isnt a problem. For Redarc and Kings dcdc controllers, when the ignition on wire method is used, they will only turn on >12v, and will still turnoff
@@nordic5490 Victron does what I described.
@@dirtyaznstyle4156 Just don't forget to turn the toggle switch back.
When I do my van I will simply use a master power switch between battery and Orion. So no parasitic battery drain.
I use a switch for the Orion-TR 30 DC-DC charger. Need some ohrs to fullcharge the 200Ah batterybank. The fridge use some amps and the fridge vent .
FET isolators for the win. been using them on my boat a long time.
Thanks for the comment! Do you have the isolator working with lithium, or with lead-acid batteries?
@Ross Lukeman currently with lead acid. but will be switching to lithium in the next 4 years once the lead acid run there course.
@@BarnicleBill Ok thanks Bill. I will have to look into these isolators, I frankly don't have much knowledge of them. Everything I do is lithium these days, so I'm not sure if it would work, but I can look into it. Thanks for bringing these to my attention!
@@rosslukeman I'd watch a video if you made one on em with lithium
Good advice for DC-DC charging from the vehicle alternator. If you are using a second alternator to charge your coach battery, consider converting the battery and inverter to 24V or 48V. The current will be 1/2 or 1/4 respectively, and you can get a 24V or 48V converter to power the 12V coach accessories. Actually there are more 48V alternators to choose from and it's about the same cost so there's not much reason to use 24V, unless you don't have enough solar to power 48V (solar cell voltage must be 5V greater than the highest battery voltage - you typically need at least 4 panels in series)
Great advice, thanks for tuning in!
Hi Ross great video and very clear thanks. I’ve just bought a Victron smart charger 12/12 18 to charge a portable 100ah LiFPo battery pack but I also have an existing set up with relay for the second AGM battery built into my truck. I’m thinking that I could use another Victron charger to charge that and remove the relay. I’m wondering how best to wire these up and if I fit a switch to swop from one to the other or just let them both run in parallel? Have you done anything like this? Many thanks
Hey Landykart, thanks for tuning in and for the question. I have to charge for stuff like this as it would take a sketch and a discussion. www.rosslukeman.com/offerings Thanks
Thanks for the information. The only thing I am missing on the Orion is that you can't configure the maximum current output. For use in a caravan the limiting factor is the wiring between the towing vehicle and the trailer/caravan. I basically need a Orion which is limited to 10A or even less. 10A is more than enough for my needs but it adds the needed safety when switching from lead acid to LiFePO4. I heard rumors that Victron is working on a next generation Orion but that can be this year or in 5 years and not getting any information from them is a bit of a let down.
I use one from Renogy, you can configure their dc-Dc chargers on maximum current use and output. I have ther dc-dc mppt charger. With a solar plugged in , it will even trickle charge the starter battery once the rear/home battery is fully charged. It will also make use of all the power from a solar panel first, and the. Use needed additional current from alternator if needed.
Thanks for the video, Ross. I will install a smart charger from Victron after watching your excellent explanation. Have a nice day.
Thanks, yes they are great little chargers!
Hi Ross thank you for your video most enlightening, I’m looking to install a b2b but only have a 70 amp alternator could I ask what size b2b I could use.
Regards
Paul
Don't know if you're still in the planning stage or beyond, but my situation with a 90A oem alternator is similar. Don't want to fry the alternator or drain the starter battery.
A new unit from Pecron is just now coming to market - the DC1242-500 car charger. I've seen enough to convince me to take the leap. Although it doesn't have a wired connection for separate engine off sensing, it includes that function in its configuration selection via voltage parameters. So, the starter battery is protected from parasitic drawdown and the alternator can be indirectly protected by limits on the operational voltage range. (i.e. slower charge rate)
For me, the most demand will be during periods of poor solar productivity, which tend to be cooler. I suppose I'll need to find out how hot the alternator can get before it enters the danger zone!
Great advice! I outfitted a new Transit with the Orion Smart charger without ignition sense, relying on the “engine on/off” detection on the Orion. With Fords smart alternator it’s very tricky to get the Orion to function properly. It either senses low voltage once the alternator voltage drops and cuts out prematurely, or stays on too long after engine shutdown (if you turn down the shutdown voltage settings like I did ). Either way, not a great setup and I wish I would have just installed the ignition sense wire from the get go.
Hi Richard, sorry for your troubles but good to hear your story about problems with the "engine on detection" setting. It's supposed to work with the smart alternators but it sounds like if the settings aren't perfect then it can cause problems. Thanks for sharing!
12v on a switch to the victron so you can decide if you want to charge or not.
Pulling amps from alternator is not free, you get higher fuel consumption
I installed a votronic b2b on a 2009 transit without ignition sense as I think it said that the unit dealt with this however if you put your ear to the unit it sounded as if it was working long after the engine was on so I think I'll add a ignition sense wire on my new camper when I install me new b2b.
@@chatteyj just look at what your shunt is saying about current.
Also look at what votronic user manual says.
transit have engine run only trigger wire under drivers seat at side of start battery this is used to trigger a relay because it's negative flick then pass 12v trough relay to victron and away u go turns on off when engine is run only.
Wonderful video. You probably saved someone's life by making that video.
Thank you!
You can set victron charger voltage to turn off b4 draining tow vehicle battery
Do you use ferrule terminations to avoid loose connections instead of bare wire ends going into the DC to DC charger?
Hi Kent, I only use ferrules for smaller-gauge wires but may try that! Thanks for the comment!
Victron connectors are designed to accept and hold bare wire.
I’d love to run a DCDC charger but I have a smaller dual 28Ah (56Ah total) battery bank and the smallest DCDC I’ve found is 20 Amps which is for a minimum of 100Ah battery setup.
Hi Jay, with 56Ah it depends on your battery type. Pretty much any lithium could take up to 28 amps (.5C) while lead-acid would be 5.6 amps (.1C). If you have lithium then the 20 amp charger would be fine. The Sterling brand chargers also have a 1/2 power mode (night mode) that cuts the amperage in half if you need to do that (www.sterling-power-usa.com/batterytobatterychargers.aspx)
@@rosslukeman actually they are AGM
@@JeepTJay6 Victron do a 9 amp DC-DC. 12-12 / 9. (No bluetooth on this model however). We use them on 55 Ah Lithium setups.
Fantastic advice Ross which is something I have been looking at having fitted to my small solar set up with my caravan. Cheers
Thanks Mardy, I'm glad you got something out of that! I agree, alternator power would be a nice supplement to solar on your caravan.
All this work is assuming a single alternator. I am planning on installing dual alternator system and really looking for systems that start with that as a base. I want to keep the van chassis and engine electrical generally separate from the house electrical systems, perhaps with some manual switched crossover in and emergency.
I know this video is a couple years ago, but I just had a quick question. If i want to run the cable from my battery back to the driver's rear of the vehicle and then up and over to the passenger rear of the vehicle, will the be problems with a run of that length? Do I need to go with a heavier gauge since the run is a little longer?
Hey there, yes you might beef up that cable gauge because you'll have a larger-than-usual voltage drop and will lose some watts of power due to that. I would use the largest gauge that will fit into your DC-DC charger.
Good Advice! We thought about charger for rear batteries
More good reasons ! Thanks 👍
Ahhhh the science of solar battery charging ahhh nice thankyou that saves me a headache
Very good video thanks for sharing. God bless you and yours.
In your description, you say you recommend 2 DC-DC chargers for faster charging and the ability max out each one. Love it, I haven't heard of this before so that's helpful. I have all my Electrical stuff right now and will be getting started installing soon, so I guess I'll order another charger lol.
I like having a small solar panel on my starter battery as well as a Dc-Dc charger installed. This way I can simply leave my van for extended periods and not be concerned about small loads draining the starter battery. Also batteries with solar tend to last longer than batteries with no solar. So it pays for itself. I have no ignition sense wire for 3 years now and it’s been fine. Can’t wait to get back to work on it this winter. We moved and that was so expensive and tiring all Ive done is install a diesel heater.
if you wanted the starting battery to charge 1st......... could you not hook up the DC DC on the secondary battery side of VSR, also putting the ignition on power lead to the actuated secondary battery charge cable side?
Thanks Rick
If you use wire ferrules on the ends of the wire the screws won't loosen as easily and will give a better connection.
Mistake 3 can be fixed by using ferrules on your wire ends. Not a good idea to use bare wire under the grub/set screws if you want tight connections.
Should’ve also mentioned mistake #4: not mounting equipment with spacers to ensure operating temps stay good.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, my name is Ivan and I have a question for you, What happens if the batteries of the Motorhome are 24V lithium and clearly the alternator is 12V? Can this device be connected like this or do you have to use another additional device to change the 12v to 24 first? If a hybrid charger is used, those that have everything integrated, that is, the inverter and the charge controller, would this device connect directly to the lithium batteries without going through the hybrid system? I don't see that it has a DC input, so that the battery could be simultaneously, let's say the solar panels and the alternator. Regards
The newest Renogy DC-DC charger I just installed does NOT have a provision for ignition sensing and atop that, I have a smart alternator. Started charging when I first turned the system on and driving. Now with aux battery sitting at 13.2 volts and the smart alternator limiting starter battery to 12.7 volts, I cannot get the Renogy dc-dc to turn on and continue charging. I guess I could wait and see if I draw power from aux battery and hope the charger requests power from the alt. I dunno if I wanna ask Renogy as I have a bad feeling they have poor tech service but maybe I'll try....
Hi I love watching your videos some I can understand and some I simply can't follow lol but I do love seeing your videos you have great information and you explain really well. So I have a problem and I'm hoping you can help me out with it. So I have the blue smart charger 12v 30amp 3 outputs with the Bluetooth that works great I think lol. Then I have the BVM-712 smart battery monitor and with this product It shows me that my battery voltage is below 10volt but it also shows me that I still have 53% left and I've only used 184amps out of 300amps so I'm very confused. I have 3 100ah lithium battery wired in parallel. Then I also have the orion-Tr smart 12/12/30 isolated dc/dc charger. With this product I see that it's only generating no more then 8amps while the bus is running I have a 2013 ford e450 v10 6.8l with a 225amp alltonater. Is there something in the settings that I need to change? Why aren't I getting a lot of amps from the alltonater?
You may have already covered this. Would you still need this if you are using an inverter charger with a charge controller built in. Thank you.
Yes, inverter-charger and charge controller cover shore and solar respectively. You'd still need this if you want alternator charging.
Saw this video and was going to add one of these to my build. I actually have a 12v cig plug that's ignition powered right next where I'm putting my DC-DC charger. Can't I just use that instead of tapping into a fuse panel?
I would make it nice. Go to the fuse panel and hide the wire!
Quick question.
I have a 25 amp dcdc charger that's solar compatible.
So when the trucks not running, the solar kicks on.
Can I add another solar only 20amp mppt charger so I can run more panels when stoped?
I won't be going over the 100amp imput capacity of the 120 lithium battery I have
That’s why I chose AGM battery to avoid the hassle.
Great Video! A lot of useful info! What if the alternator I have has a voltage regulator in it, my plan is to use this second alternator to run a wire straight to my secondary batteries, the alternator has a positive and negative connection for the voltage regulator. Do I still need a charge controller, or would using those lines be adequate?
Hi Nicholas, great question. I can't quite tell what you have, so I will say this. Some 2nd alternators are internally regulated to output a flat voltage, say 14.8 volts. You can also get them without internal regulation, where they are intended to be controlled by an external regulator such as a Balmar MC-618-H. This costs about $500 more, but eliminates the need for the DC-DC charger needed to adjust the flat 14.8 volts in the first scenario. The external regulator essentially becomes your multi-stage DC-DC charger, so you're controlling the alternator's output and charging algorithm at the source (at the alternator), instead of sending a voltage to the rear system and having to regulate it back there with a DC-DC charger.
Thanks, Ross, for the video! What are your thoughts on adding a second alternator to charge lithium batteries? Any reason to not do this when a voltage regulator is used? Thanks!
Hi Brad, it's okay to do but may be a bit overkill for most systems. You can expect 170-200 amps out of a 2nd alternator when the engine is cruising at 2000 rpm, and you have to have somewhere to send that amount of power to fully utilize these units. That translates to 170Ah -200Ah of battery charging per hour of driving, or running a rooftop A/C taking 1800-2400 watts. I work at a shop where we put these on vans that are airport shuttles with Dometic Penguin II A/C's, but otherwise the extra $2000 is better spent elsewhere. When you add the voltage regulator such as a Balmar you are looking at closer to $2500 not including install.
We have started experimenting with 12-volt air conditioners such as the Kingtec KTD-3 and Dometic RTX 2000, which take up to about 600 watts. Then we can safely power these off of the stock alternator (they only take 600 at full blast, usually it's less). Using 1/3 the power also translates to being able to run these for much longer on batteries with the engine off, and being able to shrink your inverter capacity (DC air conditioners don't need to run through the inverter, just straight off of the batteries). So essentially we've been taking the $2000 and spending it on more expensive 12V air conditioners, instead of the 2nd alternators. Hope that helps!
P.S. Pulling 60 amps off of a stock alternator roughly translates to a 60Ah per hour of driving recharge rate for lithium batteries.
Many thanks Ross, top job!
Do you have an Amazon link for the Victron energy charger? I would like you to get credit!
Hi Tony, thanks for tuning in and for your consideration. I would get this one, it's the latest: amzn.to/4dYyhcH Thank you!
Thanks for the info!!! This was a very insightful video. I have dual alternators on the shuttle bus my wife and I just purchased. I’m thinking I’d like to use one for the started batteries and one for the house batteries. Would I be able to just run the the dedicated alternator through a charger like you’re showing and then into the Lithium batteries?
Hey there, thanks for watching, I'm glad that was helpful. On using the alternators as you described, it depends on what the original setup was with the two alternators. If they have old cables intact and connected, you may need to see where they go. If the second alternator is just sitting there with a bolt for the positive line with nothing on it, then yes you can run a line directly to a charger in the back, then connecting the charger to the rear system.
Thanks for this. I'm fairly new to this. I have 2 x 235Ah lead acid batteries in the back. Does that mean I should use 2 x 30a B2B chargers in parallel?
Hi Mike, thanks for tuning in. With the lead-acid batteries, you have to determine how many amps they can take. This is typically 0.1-0.2C (10-20% of capacity). So 0.1C would be 23.5 amps of charging per battery, or 47 amps. If they can take 0.2C charge rate, that would be 94 amps for the both of them. Frankly 60 amps would probably be okay. These days they have a nice 50-amp charger, the Orion XS. It's also reducible down to anything under 50 amps, so you could dial it down as well. I would check out your battery manufacturer's spec sheet to see what kind of charge rate they want for those batteries. Hope that helps, thanks for watching!
Hello. Is there a way to charge with solar AND alternator? I have an ice cream tru k and am exploring options
I already have a blue sea relay installed in my system. I am upgrading to lithium can I leave the relay in the circuit and add a smart DC to DC charger or remove the relay?
Sorry, I am a little confused about the little green plug. Am I supposed to connect the wire from the ignition into the green plug? Is there a positive/negative side to the plug? If I don't do the ignition option, does the green plug need to remain in the Orion or does it come out, or make no difference? Last question, what if I had a Master disconnect switch between the two batteries, will that provide the same safeguard? Thanks.
If you already haven’t can you cover the customer output terminals on the ford Transit 3x60 amp/h I think 🤔
Hi Glenn, I don't have a Transit to film with yet, but I can tell you just bolt your positive cable to the Transit connection point, and run it back to your DC-DC charger input. Alternator power located on the driver's seat base, pretty convenient.
Great content, thanks for sharing. I'm upgrading my boat and my plans were to use a victron cyrix VSR (already purchased) to isolate the starter battery but I might have to reconsider now after watching this. Question: why is it ok to charge the starter battery directly off the alternator but not the house batteries? I have AGM batteries for both banks. Would it not be a good idea to have a dc/dc charger between the alternator and starter battery?
Hi Robert, thanks for checking out the video! You don't want to isolate the starter battery from the alternator because when operating the engine and vehicle, the loads on that circuit are never ending. If the engine battery stopped receiving a charge, it would quickly deplete as it fired the spark plugs, ran the vehicle computer, etc. It's under constant load. The batteries in the back are not under constant load typically, so they can get "full" and it's better to back off charging at that point to extend/preserve the life of the rear batteries.
You should not charge the starter battery and the house batteries at the same time from a single charger. You will knacker the batteries and shorten their life.
Starter batteries and house batteries have different electrical characteristics and should not be connected in parallel and charged at the same time.
If you want to charge both at the same time, you need a separate charger.
As a boat Captain It’s fine to charge the starter batteries and house batteries. I’m not sure what kind of boat or battery banks you have but you can even isolate the house batteries into port and starboard banks. These guys use boating terms like “shore power” but have no idea how it actually all works on a boat. You’ll probably want to add a second alternator to one of your diesels.
What he talks about in the first 2 minutes is what just totalled my truck in a fire. My batteries were at an all time low. Had the truck running charging the batteries while I was in the bathroom the wire from the alternator to my battery bank caught fire and my entire interior was gutted in a major fire.
Just curious as to what sized wire you ran?
I just wired my charger to a switch up front. I have almost everything hard wired with its own switch and/or switch relay setup.
Very cool, sounds like a good idea to have everything remote controllable. Thanks for tuning in-
With an older vehicle (2012 Sienna van) it it best to run the house battery charging only when the vehicle’s engine is above a certain RPM to be sure the alternator doesn’t overheat? Especially if I am running the Renogy dc to dc charger at 40 amps, I use a cut off switch on the dash to turn of the charging if we are stopped and just idling, and I will switch to a lower gear to keep the RPMs up eg when we are on a potholed road going slow. Is that safe, silly or reckless? (FWIW, I’m charging a 100ah LiFePO4 battery)
I've put one 100Ah lithium battery in my fifth wheel. I upgraded my converter to charger the new battery. I did install a 100A shunt and monitor. My question is for when I am towing....what will happen to my alternator on my 96 7.3 PSD? Should I be concerned.
I have an enclosed trailer that I am adding an agm battery to. My tow vehicle is a 2023 Toyota Tundra I force max hybrid. I have a starter battery in the truck. There is a 10ga wire with 12v constant in my 7 pin plug. What should I use to manage the 12v coming through that cable when connecting it to the positive buss bar in the trailer? I do not want an overcharging situation nor do I want the agm battery back feeding the truck when the trailer is connected. I am not able to find anything explaining how this should be done. Thanks to anyone offering help.
Appreciate the information and the download!
Glad you got something out of it, thanks for watching!
If i have an aux switch on a 30 amp fuse (also w a relay) could the aux switch be hooked up to a 30a solar charger for lithium battery?
Thinking of running making quick connection for solar at camp and run on aux on the road for charge.
Bad idea?
Hey men. I only realised there's two version of this charger 30 and 50 amp. I bought 50 amp and now I worry it will be too much for my old 1992 Ducato motorhome :/ what you think
Hey there, it will probably be okay. I would find out how many amps the alternator is rated for. Allow 40-50 amps to run the vehicle. The remainder is available for charging. However, if you max out your machinery it will not last as long. In the end, a 50-amp charger for most vehicles (with alternators of 120 amps and above) is going to be fine. Considering it's a 1992, you may want to go easy on it, or put in a new alternator if it's the original (or wait until it goes out). Hope that helps!
much appreciate @@rosslukeman
Some say battery to battery chargers can overload the alternator.. what think?
Hey there, they can overload the alternator is their amperage is too big for said alternator. But generally if you get one with a reasonable amperage for your alternator, it will protect the alternator by limiting the charging to that amperage. Hope that helps, thanks for tuning in!
Great video. We have a travel trailer and upgrading to lithium battery this year. No solar, but we have a 2000w Bluetti solar gen, we use during travel to run fridge on AC. Problem is that it's a power hog and drains battery in 4 hrs. I would like to add some charge while we drive. The gen is limited to 15a charge and 12v or more input. Would this be able drive both batteries as we drive. Don't expect to fully charge just compliment. Driving 2019 F150. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Great video. Really informative. Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
A lot of good info.
Thanks, looks like a great channel you have as well.
Great 👍🏻 information, thanks!
Thank you Dave!
I was so hoping to see a camera shot of the "blue" device in front of you ... I'd sure like to know who makes it .. and its model number ???
Hi Cal, thanks for watching, it is the Victron Orion 12-12 | 30 amp non-isolated model: amzn.to/3T8PGbc
They have a new redesigned 50-amp Orion XS coming out in the Spring of 2024, FYI.
Thank you for the excellent information.
Good to hear you got something out of it! Thanks for tuning in!
great explanation. I was going to try and use an ACR exactly as you described but decided the B2B would be a better choice, but not for the reasons you elaborated on. Great video.
What is the inline AGU fuse for coming from the Chevy Express fuse box at 12:38? I’m thinking of wiring my amplifier into there instead directly to the battery in my own Express.
Hey there, thanks for tuning in. So that inline device is actually a little breaker, which quality-wise, I no longer trust. I would put something higher-end such as a Blue Sea 187 series DC breaker. If you want to try the one I had, it is this one: amzn.to/3yQ04wS Hope that helps, thanks for watching!
Can vehicle chassis be used as common ground for both "ends", for Transit, Sprinter, etc? Assuming it's directly on the metal and not just on the paint, etc? Saves one bulky and somewhat expensive cable.
Hi Alec, yes the chassis is the common ground, and you are correct, make sure it's metal to metal, with no paint under your cable. You can spray paint over the connection once it's made.
@@rosslukeman Another one... do these play nicely with a solar charger? Or do you need a special unit that connects both the DC-DC and solar charge inputs and makes sense of them?
@@alecfurtado1765 they will play nice with a solar charger. Like two air pumps connected to the same tire, they will each independently conclude when the tire (or battery in this case) is full.
Thank you, I have subscribed
Thanks for tuning in and subscribing! More to come-
An isolation switch in the feed.from the vehicle battery to the Orion charger will.avoid parasitic.load on the vehicle battery.
This sounds like a good solution, you would just have to check if you have a smart alternator. Once it temporarily drops voltage, then the isolator would shut down charging. The Orions are programmed to accept this occasional voltage drop. Great insight though.
@@rosslukeman I have set up the Orion. remote.switch function with a simple toggle switch . When we park and.stop the engine I switch the Orion off. We have 600 watts of.solar on the van roof and a lithium battery which has proved sufficient so.far.
Does it heat up the alternate, in other words does it take all the voltage that the alternate is trying to give the car battery
If your alternator has external regulator (Balmar) will that help address the issue of using an ACR and battery combiner vs a dc-dc charge converter. (Actually on a boat). AGM starter battery / Lifepo4 house
Brilliant video Ross, seeing as you touched on the subject of starter battery ghost draw, and preventing this with connecting the engine on feed, what would you recommend to add to my system to ensure my starter battery is topped up from leisure batteries when parked up for long periods?
I already have two 12/12/30 victron dc to dc chargers connected to supply 60amps to my 400ah lithium battery bank, could I use a third dc todc charger, dedicated to keeping the starter battery topped up?
Alarm system, immobiliser etc are powered from starter battery, so it's voltage is dropping all the time.
Thanks in advance
Ok so I have a travel trailer camper. Do I still need a ignition wire or am I okay with the way I have it.I don't leave my truck connected at camp site or home.
If it's a trailer I would try to get by with the "engine detection" feature (it detects a rise in voltage on the input cable when the engine/alternator starts). Maybe add the ignition wire if it doesn't perform well with that setting alone.
Can you further comment on exactly how to wire the off/on connector. Which of the 2 wires in the green plug do you hook to power and do you take the jumper wire out or leave it in.
From what I understand but am looking for clarity is that you hook 12V to the right side of the plug and take the jumper out?
Any comments welcomed and appreciated.
Ycasts
Hi Stacy, you are right, for ignition control, you take the jumper out and connect the ignition wire to the right side labeled "H."
So much easier to set it up to sense when the alternator is charging.
I am trying to charge my 24 volt system and have a victron 24-12, do I need a victron 12-24, for charging. Also, will the alternator charge the two lead acid on the truck in addition to the four lithium batteries in my battery bank?
Thanks Ross! Exactly what I needed in my quest to learn more for my van build. Very informative and very well planned tutorial.
Glad that was helpful! Thanks for tuning in.
Thanks heaps!! Very easy, clear instructions, prevention. 👍
Thanks!
Tinning the cable ends helps with loose connections
Noted, thank you Paul.
Hello. I have a 2020 Boxer with 20,000 km and the booster doesn't charge me every time and when it charges me it doesn't charge as fast as it should. The battery is a Victron 12.8V Lithium Superpack 100Ah 1280Wh LiFePO4 and the booster is a Victron Orion Tr-smart 12/12-30 non isolated. The times that it charges I see that the input voltage is stuck at 14.4 but there are other times that it does not charge because the voltage that reaches it is lower and also oscillates so that it activates for a few moments but immediately turns off again.
Can you connect a DC to DC charger directly to the alternator? My engine is in the back, and starter battery in the front. I'd like to avoid running a wire from front to back of my van where I want my aux battery.
Yes I think that will be okay. I did it once, hooked 3 of these to a 2nd alternator. They are dead when the engine is off, can't find them on the Victron app until you start the engine.
How does this victron compare to Renogy 20A or 40A DC to DC charger? would this suffice? its much cheaper than the Victron in my country.
I haven't quite tried the Renogy units yet. They should be decent but the build quality may not be quite the same. Warranty is a couple of years less. I would try it though, there aren't major red flags, should work okay. Hope that helps-
Does this info relate to alternators with built in voltage regulators? I have an 06 f350 diesel with two batteries and two alternators. I want to dc charge camper batteries.
Hi Jon, thanks for stopping in. Yes pretty much all info discussed in this video pertains to alternators with internal voltage regulators. As long as you can find a good place to pick up that alternator power, then a DC-DC charger such as the one shown in this video would help you regulate that power. Hope that helps-
As far as I have used my LifePo4 batteries with a DC to DC inverter works great.
thanks Ross, any thoughts on how to find the ignition wire on a 2017 promaster?
Hi Al, I sent you an email! Thanks
You don't need the signal wire if you use the victron app...
Excellent information!
Glad you got something out of it, thanks for watching!
Thanks great job god bless
Thank you John! God bless
also i get much better life and discharge rate out of lead acid! and if you have a batt problem they are easier to get when you are in the middle of no where!
How do you feel about circuit breakers over fuses?
I use circuit breakers when I need an on-off functionality, but they can get expensive at the higher amperage ratings. For most things I use fuses. Other than that they're interchangeable. Hope that helps-
On the cheap. LOL
No solar! Can't I just use a solar charger 12v sys,15, 20, to 30amp. And hook auto alternator battery to PV input with a on and off switch, output to Aux battery and set your chem. on what type battery. Seems like that would work just fine with out over charging and take care of back flow. I am an electrician, but this is not my field.
Hey Garner, good question. The problem is typically that the input voltage ranges are different between these chargers and solar chargers. Solar chargers have a higher input voltage range and function differently. Solar chargers are also set up for things like day/night that are foreign to DC-DC chargers, which have "ignition on" detection. They are different animals, I would get the right product unless you just want to experiment and see what happens.