I think an important thing to remember is it’s often easy to think you’re getting the best suggestions when it’s for a trip you’d naturally search for suggestions for. I find I notice the most holes when I look up trips I make regularly and see suggestions that I wouldn’t take (for reasons the app may not understand!).
I think you tiptoed around that there are two types of trips people tend to make: time sensitive trips (where you need to be at a place by a certain time), and time insensitive trips (where time matters less than comfort). For the former, some of those esoteric routes might make sense if all pieces of the route line up right. For example, I tend to use transit when going to a doctor's appointment, and for that I use the "arrive by" feature of Google Maps to figure out a route that should get me there prior to the start of my appointment. Whereas, when I use it to go grocery shopping, I don't really care what time it drops me off and just want the most efficient route in terms of number of transfers. Different use cases for each scenario.
Some transit navigation apps in Japan have multiple ways to sort recommendations exactly due to this, you can pick whether you want to rank by fare, by time needed, or by numbers of connections. I think there's even one that can rank by CO2 emission. And this is in addition to you can pick either your start time or end time of the trip, which mode you want to use and do you want to take expensive fast train and do you intend to use train passes that offer free travel within specific scope, how fast you walk when making connections, and so on. One of the company spent a decade in field data collection and communication channel with all local city, town and village governments to ensure bus route data accuracy, especially for trips or operation patterns that do not show up on official schedules.
@@KyurekiHana I actually end up in the opposite situation, where I'll take a route that google maps doesn't suggest simply because the trains on that route are air conditioned and usually quieter, and the ones on the suggested routes are not. Although you do end up in the situation that because it's a 15 min frequency compared to 90 seconds, it's a lot less forgiving to minor delays like being stuck at multiple road crossings on my way to the station. In this case the esoteric route is slower (although if you time your journey right, only by a few minutes), but much more pleasant.
This is all true, of course, but that SBB app is still pretty awesome. It's a target more transit agencies should be shooting for. Though I think ultimately, standardized open data is the way to go.
The SBB app is awesome, I use it pretty frequently to get around and it has all the necessary info and even includes route changes if a segment is out of service. My local train service had a bus replacement for a part of the journey because they were updating the infrastructure, the SBB app displayed the changed route and connections with no issues. It also has warnings for delays on connections. The EasyRide feature also makes taking public transit easy, I just press a button when I leave, press it again when I'm at my destination and the app uses the phone's GPS to track the route I took and automatically picks the cheapest combination of tickets to get there.
Some years ago, TfL decided that transport data was a key resource and that running its own App was not the best way to use it. TfL decided to make realtime information available to App developers and to third parties. The result is that you get the excellent Citymapper in London using open source information.
@@RMTransit Almost all of them have open data for schedule (including last minute schedule changes), but open data about real time delays is not soo common, at least in France/Germany. Citymapper in Paris for example would be aware that the schedule is not being followed on a metro line with a problem, but won't be able to tell you when the next train actually comes. It only knows when it is supposed to come. This infos are sometime not even available on the official app for some routes where the information system hasn't been ugraded.
There used to be a good app in London that not only told you which took into account which carriage you should sit in and it would even minimise stair use.
@@jeanphilippeardrone5135 I use RATP’s app in Paris, but for a city I’m not so familiar with, I will use Citymapper. I used it on a recent trip to Madrid and Barcelona, and it worked very well. I used Renfe to plan the trip between those cities. It did the job, but wasn’t quite so good.
I actually take a slightly different view: navigating with apps today is a million times easier than not having apps when I was a kid! I remember bus lines feeling outright hostile when I was a kid. You had to know where your stop was, when your bus arrived, when you needed to get off, and when to ring the bell in order to get the bus to stop there. I recently took a bus while using the Transit app and it did all these things for me! In fact, if I kept it on during my travel it even gave me a buzz when I was within two stops so I knew to ring the bell! You do bring up some great points on how the systems could be improved! I just think you don’t give apps enough credit for how much easier they make life compared to the 90’s.
Buses are a mess everywhere with or without apps. Yes, they might be the right thing for some systems, but that doesn't change their general inconvenience
This is very true. Until the arrival of smartphones & apps, and before web-browser based PID systems, you needed a paper timetable & transit map. Oftentimes, you stuck with the transfer routes & times which you were familiar with, because you were none the wiser of any alternatives.
@@jan-lukas I disagree. Sure, they're a mess in many places - I'm reminded of this often when I travel abroad - but it's also perfectly possible for them to be about as convenient (if less nice than) as anything rail-based. The Netherlands or large cities in Germany are good examples.
@@jan-lukas yea, it feels like cities try to use buses as a catch-all solution. When I was researching my video on the cost to build light rail vs a freeway, I was shocked at how much extra money building a light rail leaves the city with because it costs so much less. Now, my ideal scenario is to build rails as the main “arteries” in a city and then use the left over money to build bus and bike lanes as “veins”. So their whole purpose would be to help citizens go the 1-2 miles needed in order to get to the nearest light rail stop. Hopefully soon I’ll finish editing that video and see what the internet thinks hahaha.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet well the thing people forget and even Reece mentioned is that you also need service, you can build the best in the whole world infrastructure, but if there's only one train per hour, it's practically useless compared to the investment. Service is very important. What lots of Asian cities do it start with lower forms of transits, i.e. mini-bus, buses, then move to trams or other light rails/BRTS, dedicated rail transit or a metro, then moving on to a heavy metro. in each case they have to offer service for at least few years, more like minimum half a decade. Even if it means running it empty.
Citymapper is pretty good in figuring out these non-obvious factors that make a longer route better. It shows air conditioned lines as you mentioned, and if it's raining it'll show you connections where you don't need to walk outside rather than using a faster out of station interchange. It also understands the transfer time, so it knows that to transfer between Thameslink and the sub-surface Tube lines it's better to ride an extra stop to Farringdon where there's a cross-platform transfer rather than at St Pancras where you have to walk the length of the entire station. Clever stuff.
This is quite a North America-centric view. As you may have seen in London, Citymapper supports every single feature you mentioned - real-time data for all modes, instant recalculation of connections, avoiding stairs / changes / walks, preferring certain modes over others, mixed-mode trips (public transport + cycle / cab), fares, platform numbers, even which part of the train to sit on for a quick exit, and which exit to use at the station.
Dutch (The Netherlands) transit routing apps are quite good: they include real time delays, train occupancy, rental bikes on the station you arrive, and so on. I can sometime beat the planner, mainly because transport is so often.
I think the apps of the provider are the way to go. Here in Germany most of the apps are also super useful and also let you buy tickets and stuff right from the app. You can also add your favorite lines and get updates about service changes and construction in advance
@@richardhee It takes into account that switching trains takes a few minutes (2-5) But when a train arrives a bit early, or the connection is a bit late, I can catch a better connection than planned for me. (Trains run every 10 or 15 minutes)
As a software engineer that works on highly complex systems (and knowing the modern state of software and non-software systems), it makes me want to pull my hair out to learn about implementation details such as these. I do often wonder WHAT is happening behind the scenes when these decisions are being made, and by whom.
@@mondude89 Often the transit apps/websites are made by a private software company hired by a transport company. The big problem then is often bad communication between the transport company and the software company, because the upper ranks of the transport company, who does the communication, aren't fully aware of the problems needing solving. The end product is too often an app/website looking good, but lacking functionality.
@@mondude89 Of course people with high skill deserve to be rewarded according to the work they created. Question is whether people control the money willing to pay properly
Great video! It definitely comes down to "garbage in, garbage out" as you were saying. Many transit agencies aren't investing in the tools needed to provide a more detailed level of information to these apps, such as individual trip cancellations and stop closures. On the other hand though, apps have sort of plateaued in terms of their ability to display some of the more detailed data that transit agencies compile, including prioritizing transfers at bus stops with shelters. The fact that Google Maps and GTFS still don't properly support on-demand transit is becoming a growing issue as many agencies adopt this mode.
I appreciate every video you do . The detail and love for transit that we all share . I can't comment in the great detail because I just can not but I know that transit and walking and intercity rail is key . Continue to educate me in all of this regard. You are young and I am old . Thanks so much!
@@RMTransit Indeed the amount of research it took just to get a grasp of the non-standard nomenclature for different services, and the deep appreciation you have for the nuances that pertain to transit connections for the rider was impressive in this video. I follow many urbanist and transit channels on TH-cam, and yours has emerged as one of the very best. Bravo.
I find google maps has gotten really good in Paris, when taking the metro or the RER it shows you where the nearest entrance is and tells you which exit is the best, it also clearly highlights the direction you have to take and where you currently are. The only thing lacking from the transit focused apps are where is the best placement in the metro for your exit.
@@SilverScroll It does! It also has the exit suggestions which is good in combination with the metro's good exit wayfinding. Analog signage is still very important to complement apps (this is true for driving as well).
The RATP app has the best placement on the train for your exit in Paris. But in my experience, Paris metro trains are so tiny it doesn’t really matter. But if you’re on the elisabeth line, you’d probably want to know which sidr
@@lik7953 That's really cool to have that feature in the official local app! I may not like Paris, but the RATP know what they're doing with a lot of things.
I have actually sworn by citymapper it's been the smoothest in my opinion and I like that you can swipe all the steps, so even if you lose connection you can still see what your next directions would be. I do agree about sudden delays. Those are rarely propagated to such apps.
One thing I also like about Citymapper is how reactive they are to feedback. So if you notice something does not match up to reality, you can tell them and they'll fix it!
@@ThomasJM Works wonders in Montreal, sad that Ottawa is not included! Some of those bus routes can be pretty confusing to non-natives. Was lucky that I was with Ottawan friends when I visited.
Citymapper works amazing in the NYC tri-state area in my experience (I live there), though it does help that NYC is one of the first cities that Citymapper did after London so there's a lot more data to go by. I will say though that it doesn't do a great job communicating service changes from the MTA and sometimes live tracking goes out especially on buses, but I think that's the transit agency's fault
As a student in Budapest, I'm totally satisfied with Google Maps' transit navigation, it's a perfectly smooth experience 99% of the time, even outside of Budapest. Inside the city Maps usually picks up transit anomalies pretty fast and alerts me if I try to take the route, or just reroutes if needed. For planning intercity train trips I do prefer the dedicated app, but I would use that for buying tickets anyways so it's pretty natural. Had pretty much the same experience in other major European cities as well, and this is coming from someone with the navigation skills of a dead fish.
A good example of problems with transit in mapping apps is timed transfers. My local transit agency uses them very heavily, meaning they have two metro trains pulling in at the same time at opposite sides of the platform, people can switch, and then they leave a minute later. The app of the agency knows this and suggests the trip like that with basically no transfer time, but Google Maps thinks
Maybe that's because Google Maps can't tell the difference between a cross-platform transfer and a transfer where you have to go to an entirely different part of the station.
This is an indication of your transit authority not properly implementing the GTFS standard for these connections. Because with GTFS you can have same-platform-transfer and timed transfers, the transit authority just has to provide them as such.
As somebody who's written code for transport agencies to make real-time data available for apps, and who's used public transport in dozens of cities in the last few months, wow, this episode gave me a LOT to think about! Thanks!
As someone who’s never had a driver’s license as a result of a learning disability, I can say that the inconvenience of transit wait times is nothing compared to how nervous I get behind the wheel.
These map apps have been a lifeline for me during these past few years as I started discovering and using mass transit for the first time. They do have their quirks and inconveniences, but you also learn and adapt over time. It’s a skill worth learning.
Something that google maps really falls flat on is multi-operator journeys. For example I have one option to travel into town, and can buy a day ticket for that operator. But once in town there are multiple bus operators to the same destination which don't all accept each other's tickets, so google might end up recommending a more expensive trip to someone.
Great video. I have to say I’m pretty happy relying on Citymapper in most instances it’s available - it doesn’t deal with every quirk of individual systems (especially for newer cities) but there is huge value in being able to use the same familiar interface in so many cities, and generally it gets most things right and (importantly) easy.
As a Londoner, citymapper is a godsend. It gives every single public transport option, choices on how you want to get there (only bus, only train or fastest for eg), has good audio and visual directions for cycling or walking. The integration of other services such as Uber or various electric scooter or bike rental companies mean you really have everything in one place, showing the prices of everything. They have good disability access and have clear info, update quickly with delays, suggest times for you to leave. I like the extra features such as, in the run up to the Elizabeth line being released, it showed you how your future journey could change and the jokey options such as “teleporting”
I still maintain the SBB (Swiss National Rail) app is by far and away thee best transit app in existence. It even worked for my international connections throughout Europe (to include the London Tube) and I can purchase tickets, upgrades (within Switzerland) and even have my rail pass on the app which is scanned by controllers. It's incredibly intuitive, easy to navigate and should be a case study for anyone studying UI/UX. Even shows you which platform, and the train composition and what amenities are on your train for your scheduled route.
I’m lucky that the Munich transit system has their own app which allows you to put in your start and end location and time of departure and it’ll automatically give your various routes to get there. It even takes into account track/line closures due to construction sites which has saved me from going the wrong direction more than once. I hope every city will get a good transit mapping system soon even if it’s just google maps as it makes taking public transit a lot easier.
In a perfect world, every city (and regional/intercity/international systems as well!) would just publish the data in a standardized format that can be used by all map apps. It would create so many options
@@jan-lukas So many metropolitan areas already have their stock digitally equipped. Whats really missing is the right app, that even helps you with times and tickets when you´re on vacation etc.
@@RMTransit they can just hire the same agency which has developed the app. It's not like the MVV has an actual division full of app developers. Germany wide it's possible to use the DB Navigator App even for non-DB services like U-Bahnen or Buses.
In Germany most cities have their own apps, but as a whole there is an App called DB Navigator which covers pretty much all transit nationwide. From ICE trains to local Buses. It also shows delays and SEV services (replacement buses for when the rail service is interrupted). It's actually really good.
I think a more precise way would be to say that each ‘Verkehrsverbund’ has its own app. But since most ‘Verkehrsverbünde’ are centered around a large city, that is not much of a distinction.
Brilliant - I'll have to watch this a couple more times to digest the finer points (so many of them) - but this encapsulates a lot of really important stuff, which the transit industry/ies need to take up.
I am happy with the Transit app; it may not be perfect but it gives me the info I need. My son was recently visiting me, he used Transit to get around the city he didn't know. My big complaint is different, and has to do with walking. I live in Minneapolis, we have an extensive skyway system downtown, and **none** of the apps cover the skyway! Try using G Maps to walk between two places, and it throws you onto the streets. Businesses that operate on the Skyway level may or may not be on the map. The best skyway navigation tool I know is a 10+ year old PDF map.
Have to mention that Auckland, New Zealand's AT Mobile app is one of the best transit app I ever used. It combines everything from walking, cycling to buses, trains and ferries, with multiple travel plan for me to pick base on my preferences, plus the service cancelation and delay notice are always accurate with new suggestion for travel plan when ever that happens. It also estimate the cost of every travel plan for comparing. Even if I catch a bus that is earlier/later than the one suggested by the app, it can tell I am on that bus by the speed and direction I am moving, and adjust the travel plan accordingly.
I remember having to pick up paper timetable books for the transit here. Nowadays, I just punch in my starting address (or let my phone know my location) and my destination, and get five suggestions for how to get there, with tracking of both my own location and the vehicles involved. If a connecting bus is delayed, the app gives me an alternative route.
I live in the Phoenix metro area in the US, and the Transit App is basically perfect for our system Valley Metro. I've never had a bad experience with the app and it always lets me know about delays and shows me where the vehicle currently is while I'm waiting for it!
With pretty much all transit operators in Australia, data API's are all publicly available, pretty much allowing any developer to create an app for public transport. My personal favourite is AnyTrip, which shows a live map of all buses, trains, trams. When you click on a bus, train or tram it will show the vehicle model, schedule, what operator, it's capacity and it's speed. It's a super cool tool and it's very fun if your bored to just stare at a bunch of buses and trains moving 🤣
As a Londoner with an Android phone: Firstly, great to see all that London footage (haha). Secondly, my experience with Google Maps, TFL and the UK mainline rail network has been on the whole very positive. There's definitely things that could be improved, but it's honestly pretty good these days. The only thing that can sometimes be a problem is if I'm already on a train, and I'm trying to work out alternative options at a certain stop coming up. Sometimes I have to cancel out of my trip and then put the starting point of my journey as the stop I'm planning to get off at, and then guess what time I should put in as the departure time from that stop, to work out if taking a different train might be faster. This often comes into play when my train is running late and will miss the connection that Google said I should make. For example, recently I was supposed to get off and change at Surbiton, but my train was late and I knew I'd miss the connection, so then I had to fake that I was already at Surbiton to try and decide which train I should catch when I actually got there.
I agree with this. I think "all" we're asking for is dynamic recomputation of the journey solution on the go - just like sat navs do for cars. The app could periodically recompute and alert you that you may wish to alter your itinerary if there was a significant change to the predicted arrival time at the final trip destination - either earlier or later. Particularly for the national rail network, this sort of information is available to the apps (e.g. websites like Real Time Trains can use the data to predict arrival times) One sticking point might be ticket validity - it's an added complication, but solvable I'd have thought.
Super random, but I've just realized that we knew each other for a little while years ago! Been enjoying your vids for a bit, and it only just clicked for me why you seemed so familiar haha. Keep up the good work!
As a person with dyspraxia these issues do make transit harder for me especially in new places. Things like the bus stops being moved or next to 5 identical bus stops can cause me confusion (I’ve problems with Figure ground discrimination) and make me loose my transport connection for example. Also one annoying feature on google maps is I usually don’t like; the walking instructions within transit journey isn’t the same as walking instructions by itself, it’s completely different. So I usually have set the station and “walk” to that and then scramble to re-input my transit route again. Another annoyance is when google maps and the transport provider are giving you contradictory information. For people like me, lack of consistency can really lead you to getting lost or missing out connections.
It's interesting, because I grew up traveling on public transport without using an app, I find having an app great because it simplifies the things I was already doing. For example, I don't expect it to plan my whole route from start to finish, but it means I can check options before I reach the exchange.
there's just so many factors that go into a public transport trip. I might prefer a slightly longer trip if I know the transport modes tend to be more comfortable or less crowded, or cheaper, or if I can have less transfers, or if my waits are at more pleasant stops/stations, or if I can walk less, or if I know the lines are more reliable and/or frequent (either less likely to miss connections, or less wait if I do), etc. Many of these are info that are things that are hard to add to an app, and different people will undoubtedly have different preferences, complicating things even further. As you make the same trip often, you'll get a better sense of these things, much like you'd learn the shortcuts and quiet roads when driving the same journey often.
GTFS and its Real-time extension are actually a very good system for standardizing the unstandardizable world of transit. But implementing it is challenging for many smaller transit providers. GTFS real-time, if implemented properly, will allow Google Maps to inform about expected punctuality based on traffic on the route, road closures, redirections and past data from that route for certain times. Many of the problems listed here are actually solved, it just takes transit providers to properly implement the standard. I've even had Maps inform me about a better route while on route, where I could get off earlier and take a train that had a delay and was quicker than the original route. What's important is that this data is made available in a common standard. Otherwise the apps will remain localized because app devs would otherwise have to adapt to every different standard themselves. And GTFS is, because it is implemented by many transit authorities at least in some way, a very good candidate to adopt. It is an open standard as well, allowing everyone to access the feeds of transit authorities.
One aspect that affects at least Stockholm in Google maps is that the app doesn't understand at all that stations can have more than one exit. Which means it wants you to walk up to about 4 blocks past the closest entry, which of course messes up the route planning as a whole since it doesn't understand which station is actually the closest. The real solution for this might be to have the platforms and walkpaths inside the station be part of what is mapped? They do map out the interiors of chopping malls, so why not also stations? hm. Re-purposing the system that shows the interiors of shopping malls to show the platforms, tunnels, escalators, bus bays, etc of a transit station does sound like it'd be the easiest way to make this happen? They could try making that work for Stockholm Central first, then it should be good enough for most stations.
Thank you for highlighting an important issue, as someone who has used a number of southern Ontario transit systems, inconsistency. Different nomanclature, way finding, apps, and payment methods (looking at you GRT) make something that should be so simple and easy more inconvenient and tempt me to get in my car and use the dreaded 401.
Apps like Transit and Citymapper have made navigating even in a city I’m familiar with so much more easier - a lot of less-used bus stops are nothing more than faded signboards on an electric post. I also enjoy how dedicated transit apps gameify the commuting experience, such as calculating the amount of CO2 saved or showing the number of riders you’ve helped
Having watched Wendover's and Adam Something's recent videos about the issues with international rail travel in Europe, the same theme about SNCF/DB/Renfe not opening up their data platforms crop up as well. I'm very happy to say this is something that the UK absolutely nails with plenty of real-time data APIs that various apps can hook into to figure out bus, train and rapid transit timings as well as the all-important data on delays so that they can be accounted for. And it's not just transport, the entire public sector is very good when it comes to open data in general. There's a strong culture of providing readily available data in standardised formats and public APIs.
The rail data in the UK is so open, that third-party services like RealTimeTrains give more accurate data than National Rail. I was recently trying to catch a train, and NRE were saying it would arrive with 2 minutes before my change (which would mean I wouldn't be able to get home before midnight as the next train was an hour later), but RTT knew the actual timetable and said the actual time it was both scheduled (and did) arrive at the station, meaning I was able to rush across to the platform and get the train that would get me home before the trains stopped for the night.
Phil Stockley, who has a regular comment column in the UK 'Buses' magazine, wrote an excellent article in the June issue, the main point of which was that bus companies are missing out a trick in not standardising practice in some publicity areas: doing so would make it much easier for people to travel by transit all over the country as easily as they can drive (as you point out). Certainly in the UK, going to a city you don't know and relying on being able to find out quickly how to get somewhere by bus, can feel like being in a foreign country.
I don't know anything about creating apps, but I think that the key to getting this right is to understand that if you grew up using public transportation, learning to get anywhere on time by car feels like speaking a 2nd language, and the reverse is true if you grew up being driven everywhere. There's a psychological component to this that I don't think app developers are tapping into. Maybe that's because most of the people who create these apps are highly paid tech workers who grew up being schlepped around everywhere by their parents. I grew up riding SEPTA in Philly with a mother who doesn't drive, and using schedules to make multiple transfers was as essential to me as going to the bathroom is for everybody else (Oh, and information about bathrooms at transfer points is something these apps need). When I got my first car I was almost 26, and I was always late for everything. Granted, I was in Boston during the "Big Dig", so it wasn't always my fault, but when I returned to Philly, I was still late for everything, until I got rid of the car. I've had a few cars after that, but getting somewhere on time in a car always felt like speaking a 2nd language to me. I have no doubt that the opposite is true for most of the people creating public transit apps, and those apps will continue to suck until they are written by people like me (well, me plus coding skills that I don't have), who grew up having adventures on public transportation with a parent who didn't drive.
I started this video thinking the entire premise was bs because I thought I've always had a good experience with my "default app," but you convinced me: it sucks.
The Korean native map services (Naver and Kakao) are both amazingly integrated with public transit. One of my favorite little tips is when doing a trip with multiple subway transfers, the app will tell you which train door to get into in order to have the shortest walking distance for your transfer. I also really like how when taking a bus, the app tells you whether the bus is empty, crowded, or full. It's little things like that that I take for granted.
The transit planning system of Switzerland is based on HAFAS a system developed in Germany and used in many European countries. Every country with their own interfaces but underlying always the same input data and logic. For example the German App DB Navigator knows all trains in Europe and all local transit all over Germany. Most of data is real time considering delays which results in corrected connections .
Here in the UK I’ve always found the public transport feature on apple maps to be excellent. You just put in your destination and it’s only one click to switch to public transport including trains, trams and busses.
I've found that Google Maps, in places that support it, is very helpful and almost the only thing you need to get around with transit. But the big problem is that it doesn't let you view actual transit maps, and instead only gives you directions from A to B. This is a huge drawback that I think could be fixed very easily, because they pretty much already have the routes mapped out internally in order to give you directions, and providing a way to see all routes on one screen would allow for much more flexibility in deciding what route you want to take.
I use TripGo in Australia as Citymapper hasn’t arrived in my city. I like the search result style of commute options, complete with map routing, transfer window and estimated costs based on which mode or multi-modal filter one picked - eg. bike and train, or bus and walk
A key flaw that I think Gmaps is working on slowly is inter-model journeys where one starts or ends cycling or driving or even some systems where one can take their bike on specific trains allowing cycling transfers. I still use navigation apps but oftern have to look at the route not only from my home but also from my nearest mainline stations I can cycle too. I say it is improving, as in the UK at least Gmaps has started suggesting routs where one gets a cab at the end if you are going somewhere more remote.
I personally use citymapper in Paris, because it is the app, which is the gives the most information in a very clear and efficient way. For example the app tells me sometimes on which part of the train I should get in knowing which change or exit I should use. Also I agree that we should have a way of knowing what is the fastest trip in the coming hour for instance.
I always start by looking at a .pdf of the transit system map, so I have an idea of where things are and what sort of connections are reasonable. Then I use an app (either Google Maps or something specific to the transit agency) and compare to see what works most efficiently.
I actually have a pretty good experience with using stuff like Google maps for transport both in my and other cities, although sometimes the schedules can be a bit outdated. I thought this video would be about how annoying it is that transit agencies seem to slowly be getting rid of paper/digital schedules at stops and just want you to use your phone, which wastes battery and I don't like the idea of needing a phone with a plan just to get around. Not to mention risk of water damage when it's raining and difficulty seeing the screen when it's sunny. Don't get me started about cycling though. I don't cycle much but Google Maps does not make it easy. There's no way to know wheather the route it suggests uses bike lanes, sidewalks, or roads and I don't feel confident enough to bike on roads yet (even sorrows make me nervous), and where I live certain types of bikes aren't supposed to be ridden on the sidewalk (plus as apedestrian I hate cyclists using sidewalks so I want to avoid using them anyways).
I have to agree with this. I recently took a trip to Mexico City and used Google maps. It worked amazingly well. Considering that I'm a foreigner and a poor Spanish speaker, I was able to navigate around the city on the Metro and Metrobuses quite effectively using Google maps exclusively.
Couple of examples for train routes that go wrong in London are Moorgate to Whitechapel. Various planners (including Google and the official app, but not the TFL website) ignore the lifts and escalators from Moorgate station to the Elizabeth Line and instead suggest walking or London Underground to Liverpool Street station, Citymapper and the TFL website get this right . And for Forest Gate to Devons Road it is suggested (by Google etc) a silly walk around Stratford station out of one exit to another non-existent entrance.
I understand your point about safe/convenient connections etc. but overall, in the U.K. at least, I think transit apps are pretty impressive. Real-time trains is an incredible source for rail data. And Apple maps not only showing live bus times but also notifying you when your stop is approaching is an absolute game changer for me as a VI.
Live train times are good for sure and a fairly standardized feature now, but it’s more about combining many vehicles into a journey where I think things can get tripped up
Little old Moncton out in New Brunswick has an app for their bus system that features not only mapping but LIVE buses running on that map. I've seen my friend say "my bus has just turned onto X street, if we head south we can catch it on Y street." He said his Mom loves it because, in winter, she doesn't have to leave her home until she's sure her bus is getting close - if her bus is delayed due to whatever, she can see if live on the map either sitting in traffic or, even, diverted to get around the problem. I've never seen a city with that much data available to the rider.
In London it’s exceedingly easy actually. Citymapper shows every possible option to get where you’re going, showing the time, price, interchange and other variables and providing live updates. I have exclusively used it ever since I’ve been living here.
One thing I will say about Switzerland’s pulsed transit and the SBB app is that it can be quite stressful sometimes when needing to do transfers. I’ve had it a few times where my train is only a few minutes delayed getting to a station and I’m pretty much running on the platform like a mad man trying to catch the next train or tram. That’s where I do like more frequency based systems like in Toronto and Montreal. If I miss one I know it’s not much of a wait for the next.
Thinking about it, i always used public transport during my last vacations. Might be difficult but if Google (Maps) could offer options to view arrival times and the right ticket options for your trip, it would be an absolute game changer. While in Barcelona or Porto for example, i partially felt totally lost regarding ticket options. Would also be cool to see a startup trying to offer like global ticket access for public transport. But that has to happen in coherence with the administrations and tourist boards.
At the moment there is Inter-/EU-rail so there is possibilities (at least in EU). The issue is that most local transit is funded by the local government so prices/agreements will have to be made by every local government. It would be cool if we had some kind of "EU-Oystercard" , which could be used for transit tickets across all of EU. In Denmark we have Rejsekortet, which is a blue card that can be used as a ticket on all public transit. You have to check in once you start your journey and also check in when you make a transfer. Then your check out when you reach your destination. You can even transfer from one operator to another without having to check out first. The price you pay depends on where you travel but the operators set their own fares, and then there are algorithms in place to make sure the operators are paid correctly. There is also 20% offpeak discount (only Jutland and Funen), and a discount if you travel a lot. If you make 36 trips in a month within a certain region you get 40% discount within that region. Since it works in Denmark it could potentially work across multiple countries as well.
I do agree that public transport was added later to the included map apps on mobile phones (Google Maps, Apple Maps, Bing/Edge Maps) that's only because transit companies and 3rd parties made the apps first using the api's available from Google, Apple and Microsoft. It's only when those third party apps took off that the big three added the functionality to their included mapping apps, granted there has been improvements in the standard apps, they aren't perfect. I have the problem in Greater Manchester that there's several different companies and their apps provide better information, so I have the FirstBus App and the Stagecoach App depending on what part of the county i'm travelling in. Other problems is that the standard map app doesn't show real time timetables on the Metrolink either, just scheduled times... So when it metrolink does fail (it's often...) you can arrive to nothing at all.
ehhh, in austria we use the öbb scotty app and it works really well throughout the entire country (be it trains, trams, metro, busses, etc.) idk if it would work in other countries (i think it can do regional trains, however i'm not sure it can do local transit within cities outside of austria) but yeah, within austria it's always been rather accurate in my experience. it shows delays in real time as well or tells you when you need to take a rail replacement service due to construction works or an event going on in town or whatever other reason. it gives you multiple connections as well (some slower, some fast, some direct ones, some with changes) so you can really see what works best for you personally. oh and it even tells you speific services that are provided on that specif train or bus, for example whether there's wifi or space for wheelchairs and so on wifi connection is hardly ever a problem either (unless you're in a tunnel going through a mountain), so when i'm out and about i usually always have scotty open and can take a different route on a whim if something comes up
I think the usefullness of thransit apps depends on the country you live in. Most of the problems you highlited in this video are already solved in the netherlands since so much data is available to these apps. I can just use google maps, tell it where I want to go and when I want to leave and I will get many different options that are all quite optimal, without having to think about when I will depart, since it is not nessacary with frequent scheduling ofc. Delays are shown in real time and for buses you can even see the location of the bus on the map(although it only updates like once a minute, it is still usefull to see that it is arriving soon). When a train is cancled it will say it too, even when there is maintance to like the railways going on it will show you alternative routes so you do not end up stranded. You also have options to connect to the destination by bycle or by foot which works great in the netherlands because the vast cycling network is ofc completly maped out by google.
In Singapore, using Google Maps or Apple Maps for navigating transit is actually very very easy, as realtime information about transit (i.e. train/bus arrival times, delays, extended service, etc) is all available as APIs from the numerous transit operators. Additionally, transit here is very frequent, and it is unlikely you will wait for anything for more than 10 minutes (unless you are taking an infrequent bus route). However, one of the only pitfalls that Google Maps/Apple Maps experience is that it often does not provide the best possible route. Usually, the apps will forgo taking the bus and make you walk quite a distance that could easily be taken by a short bus ride; I suspect that this is because the algorithm for picking a route tends to ignore buses, as taking the bus in North America is a little bit more of a nightmare
I take the bus to work everyday in the Capital District of NY (transit is CDTA) and there are some things I like about google maps and some that i wish it would improve on. I wanted an option where I could bike to a stop near me, get on the bus, and then get off at a spot near my work. First of all, even though it made it seem like you could get biking directions in the transit routing, you couldn’t. It would only allow you to walk to stops which didn’t make sense because the nearest bus stop on the route i wanted to take was a mile away from my house and i wanted a commute that was about a half-hour, not an hour. So I had to find two bus stops, pin the route between those two stops, and then memorize the amount of time it takes me to bike to the stop every morning. The one thing i do like is the live times it gives you so you know when you can take a few extra minutes in your morning routine when the bus gets stuck in traffic. I think google maps is better for having a transit commute that you do often, and not really when you want to use transit to go other places.
Another consideration when planning a transit trip is the trade-off between speed and cost. For example, a bus trip is often cheaper and more time-consuming than a train trip.
Here in the UK our private buss companies have their own apps as they don't let other apps access their data so in a lot of places you need 5 freaking apps to figure out where and how long it will be till your buss gets to the stop if that area even has the buss GPS on the app thanks stagecoach thankfully some of our rail apps have been adding real time info on the route you set which is great for when it's the same journey in that one area thankfully we've got real-time trains that give actuall Info of where abouts the train is and how it been running
In Europe there are dozens of apps for public transport that are quite good and reliable. Even google maps is pretty good. In the Netherlands there is an app for public transport for the whole country.
In Australia I use google maps and it actually works really well. I have only used it in Victoria and NSW, so take that what you will but other than that it has been really amazing, use it every week.
The UK has a standardised format for transit data called TransXChange, and everything is available in that format. However if you have ever tried to write an app that makes use of it, you will very quickly lose the will to live. GTFS is just so much easier to understand. Fortunately you can get most of the data in that format as well.
It works brilliantly Google maps here in the UK! Often quicker than my go to route dependent on situation I may follow there route. Often has changed and planned well. But can change settings too but in London it works brilliantly well.
I live in the DC area and I need to use at least three apps. Citymapper best provides me with directions to get to a place I haven't been and provides information on where most of the scooters are at. Transit tells me which buses and trains are around me at that instant. Metrohero best tracks the exact location and timing of trains, whether there are any issues, and the exact timing of any train transfers. I supplement Citymapper with Google Maps because one sometimes provides me with a shorter path than the other. Both suck at realizing that the fastest path sometimes is to overshoot by a stop or two on the Metro and double back 5-10 minutes on a bus instead of a 30 minute bus ride.
A good example of bad trip planning on transit is getting to West Harbour Go train station in Hamilton. I live 290m or 3 minute walk from the entrance to the station, but since that's not the main station entrance, when I plan a Go train trip on Google to somewhere in Toronto for example, it tells me my trip starts with a 650m 8 minute walk. Which is hilariously bad for those using the transit station who don't recognize there is a second entrance, especially coming from Copps Coliseum downtown Hamilton (where a lot of Toronto people have been going to see their old Lacrosse team play). Another thing that matters is that for a car, you can just type in where you want and that gives you a good idea of arrival time. With transit, at least in Google maps, it assumes you are not disabled, not a slower walker, senior, or with children. A 5 minute walk up some stairs and across a plaza for a transfer, may take my grandfather 10 minutes, and both not be preferred over closer transfers, and may mean he misses his transfer.
I really like it when transit agencies let you add a card to your apple wallet or the android equivalent. Makes everything really easy, it’s a shame that Boston doesn’t have this..
I used to use Hyperdia when I lived in Japan and it was really good. It would show you multiple possible routes (all fast) and didn't favour one type of transit over another unless you asked it via a filter (for example "no shinkansen").
It's probably also worth noting that one of the biggest failures I've noticed in navigation/mapping for driving, is almost entirely an externality to the drivers: if your destination does not have parking (or if you're going to be there briefly enough, a layby) that you can use, the navigation apps generally don't direct you and your car to a reasonable place to put said car while you do the thing that you headed to your destination for -- but that's what bike lanes are for, so no need to let the app developers know that it's a problem :P
This might be a chicago-specific issue, but also the CTA lies on its schedules. So there will be some buses on the schedule that just don't come. This means a 10 minute transfer ends up taking 30 minutes because the bus you were supposed to transfer to never came.
The clip of "confusing road sign" is of course Pittsburgh. :) I have been trying to find a picture of the orange sign at the end of the West End bridge that showed the detour when the Ft Pitt tunnel was closed. It was pure madness. But, sadly, it was in the late 90s back before we recorded everything.
I certainly agree it would be inconvenient not having internet connection while riding public transit. Back in June this year, a line-side fire near Stratford halted all services on the Great Eastern Main Line from Liverpool Street to Norwich, and unfortunately, I was caught in the delay. Back then I was on a Central Line train of the Tube, because of not having internet connection, I was not notified of this until I reached Liverpool Street National Rail station. Having internet connection surely is important in a transit system like the Tube as it allows riders to be notified of any delays immediately, instead of relying on the PA system onboard.
I gather TfL was looking at rolling out Wifi/4G in the tunnels (it's currently in stations only) - but suspect it's on hold as a lot of projects have been paused with the current Mayor vs National Government squabbles
I love the transit app and that I was able to use it in other cities besides my own. It has made using mass transit much more feasible. I don’t think I could manage the bus network in KC and circumventing transfers or what line to get on without it.
I took a look at it on the play store, and there seem to be a lot of folks complaining that several features are hidden behind a subscription. Have you noticed any issues caused by this?
Speaking of time to travel, it's a shame Google seems to be withdrawing it's timeline feature which showed you different journeys across a day. It was really useful for long or complex journeys that lined up well a few times a day.
Reece knows this from a recent UITP Transit Information and Wayfinding Design Course I curated and of which he was a key part. Navigation apps for Transit should not nor ever be considered as the be all and end all for anyone to be able to easily use any transit system. So often, the simple static signage at stations is poorly designed, poorly deployed, and poorly maintained. Only when you put a lot of time and effort into the design and deployment of static wayfinding signage at stations - for example, into things like directional signage, station locality maps, station precinct maps, route maps, network maps etc, does it result in lasting transit service take-up. Japan and Hong Kong are good examples. Transit info at the frontline, must be well-designed to be really, really easy to understand and on top of that, static media comms channels for wayfinding need to tightly integrate with digital ones so that it all works seamlessly together. Far too often, transit systems are ditching static wayfinding signage because they believe that everyone now uses an app. This is absolutely not true and by thinking this, these transit providers are just embedding inequity in their transport services and in the wider city. The trend right around the world, is for provision of integrated bus, tram and metro train services, so that users dont have think (or plan) about where they want to go, how and why - they just ‘go’. This means that multimodal, exceedingly legible, simple yet effective integrated service network wayfinding systems that is a blend of digital and print media communications, are absolutely crucial to getting people to use the services more often. What is most concerning to me is transit service provider bog ignorance of the simple fundamental truth - wayfinding and travel information design is about marketing and sales communications and until transit providers start thinking in those terms they will continue to turn hundreds,thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people away daily from using their services purely because people either don’t know about them or they dont understand that those services are applicable to their lives in a seven days a week context.
It really depends on the country. In Japan, there are excellent transit apps, mostly because people there don't want to lug around thick timetable books, and mass transit is *EVERYTHING* in that country.
I've rarely seen a video of you where my experience differed so drastically from yours. I probably won't be able to get to all of it, but the TL;DR is that I've abandoned the local transit app because Google Maps is just so much better. And that local map has improved a lot, but Google has just improved more. I still remember when Google made simple (but very irritating) mistakes figuring out where you could walk and where not (because there's a fence in the way). That has improved dramatically. These days, I'm pretty certain Google's route finder sees the world as a network of connections various different modes of transport can and cannot take at specific costs, and doesn't care if it's a street or a timetable entry. And they (almost) always show alternative routes, though the UI is rather different between car/bike/foot traffic and public transport. Now for long distance, I still prefer DB's app, but then that involves a lot more pre-planning and considering different tariffs and so on, so a (somewhat) different UI makes a lot of sense there, plus that one is really optimized for trains. It still has its problems, of course. I think that is enough for now, though I could still say quite a bit, but I can't spend unlimited time on writing this comment 🙂
I think an important thing to remember is it’s often easy to think you’re getting the best suggestions when it’s for a trip you’d naturally search for suggestions for. I find I notice the most holes when I look up trips I make regularly and see suggestions that I wouldn’t take (for reasons the app may not understand!).
I think you tiptoed around that there are two types of trips people tend to make: time sensitive trips (where you need to be at a place by a certain time), and time insensitive trips (where time matters less than comfort). For the former, some of those esoteric routes might make sense if all pieces of the route line up right. For example, I tend to use transit when going to a doctor's appointment, and for that I use the "arrive by" feature of Google Maps to figure out a route that should get me there prior to the start of my appointment. Whereas, when I use it to go grocery shopping, I don't really care what time it drops me off and just want the most efficient route in terms of number of transfers. Different use cases for each scenario.
Some transit navigation apps in Japan have multiple ways to sort recommendations exactly due to this, you can pick whether you want to rank by fare, by time needed, or by numbers of connections. I think there's even one that can rank by CO2 emission. And this is in addition to you can pick either your start time or end time of the trip, which mode you want to use and do you want to take expensive fast train and do you intend to use train passes that offer free travel within specific scope, how fast you walk when making connections, and so on.
One of the company spent a decade in field data collection and communication channel with all local city, town and village governments to ensure bus route data accuracy, especially for trips or operation patterns that do not show up on official schedules.
At least for moving through Santiago the RED app is excellent.
@@KyurekiHana I actually end up in the opposite situation, where I'll take a route that google maps doesn't suggest simply because the trains on that route are air conditioned and usually quieter, and the ones on the suggested routes are not. Although you do end up in the situation that because it's a 15 min frequency compared to 90 seconds, it's a lot less forgiving to minor delays like being stuck at multiple road crossings on my way to the station.
In this case the esoteric route is slower (although if you time your journey right, only by a few minutes), but much more pleasant.
You don't have apps for this in north America? Lol, feel sorry for you guys!
This is all true, of course, but that SBB app is still pretty awesome. It's a target more transit agencies should be shooting for.
Though I think ultimately, standardized open data is the way to go.
I agree, and SBB is implementing GTFS correctly, which allows other apps to propose their own way finding (also with real time delay informations).
Yeah, SBB is a good template. I think Swi. is one of those places that can probably afford a fancy app!
The SBB app is awesome, I use it pretty frequently to get around and it has all the necessary info and even includes route changes if a segment is out of service.
My local train service had a bus replacement for a part of the journey because they were updating the infrastructure, the SBB app displayed the changed route and connections with no issues. It also has warnings for delays on connections.
The EasyRide feature also makes taking public transit easy, I just press a button when I leave, press it again when I'm at my destination and the app uses the phone's GPS to track the route I took and automatically picks the cheapest combination of tickets to get there.
Some years ago, TfL decided that transport data was a key resource and that running its own App was not the best way to use it. TfL decided to make realtime information available to App developers and to third parties. The result is that you get the excellent Citymapper in London using open source information.
Almost all big transit agencies do this!
@@RMTransit Almost all of them have open data for schedule (including last minute schedule changes), but open data about real time delays is not soo common, at least in France/Germany. Citymapper in Paris for example would be aware that the schedule is not being followed on a metro line with a problem, but won't be able to tell you when the next train actually comes. It only knows when it is supposed to come. This infos are sometime not even available on the official app for some routes where the information system hasn't been ugraded.
It's law in the UK that all operators must use public open data
There used to be a good app in London that not only told you which took into account which carriage you should sit in and it would even minimise stair use.
@@jeanphilippeardrone5135 I use RATP’s app in Paris, but for a city I’m not so familiar with, I will use Citymapper. I used it on a recent trip to Madrid and Barcelona, and it worked very well. I used Renfe to plan the trip between those cities. It did the job, but wasn’t quite so good.
I actually take a slightly different view: navigating with apps today is a million times easier than not having apps when I was a kid!
I remember bus lines feeling outright hostile when I was a kid. You had to know where your stop was, when your bus arrived, when you needed to get off, and when to ring the bell in order to get the bus to stop there.
I recently took a bus while using the Transit app and it did all these things for me! In fact, if I kept it on during my travel it even gave me a buzz when I was within two stops so I knew to ring the bell!
You do bring up some great points on how the systems could be improved! I just think you don’t give apps enough credit for how much easier they make life compared to the 90’s.
Buses are a mess everywhere with or without apps. Yes, they might be the right thing for some systems, but that doesn't change their general inconvenience
This is very true. Until the arrival of smartphones & apps, and before web-browser based PID systems, you needed a paper timetable & transit map. Oftentimes, you stuck with the transfer routes & times which you were familiar with, because you were none the wiser of any alternatives.
@@jan-lukas I disagree. Sure, they're a mess in many places - I'm reminded of this often when I travel abroad - but it's also perfectly possible for them to be about as convenient (if less nice than) as anything rail-based. The Netherlands or large cities in Germany are good examples.
@@jan-lukas yea, it feels like cities try to use buses as a catch-all solution. When I was researching my video on the cost to build light rail vs a freeway, I was shocked at how much extra money building a light rail leaves the city with because it costs so much less.
Now, my ideal scenario is to build rails as the main “arteries” in a city and then use the left over money to build bus and bike lanes as “veins”. So their whole purpose would be to help citizens go the 1-2 miles needed in order to get to the nearest light rail stop.
Hopefully soon I’ll finish editing that video and see what the internet thinks hahaha.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet well the thing people forget and even Reece mentioned is that you also need service, you can build the best in the whole world infrastructure, but if there's only one train per hour, it's practically useless compared to the investment. Service is very important. What lots of Asian cities do it start with lower forms of transits, i.e. mini-bus, buses, then move to trams or other light rails/BRTS, dedicated rail transit or a metro, then moving on to a heavy metro. in each case they have to offer service for at least few years, more like minimum half a decade. Even if it means running it empty.
On the topic of citymapper, I was *very impressed* by the air conditioned routes offered during the recent heatwave here in the UK!
Citymapper is pretty good in figuring out these non-obvious factors that make a longer route better. It shows air conditioned lines as you mentioned, and if it's raining it'll show you connections where you don't need to walk outside rather than using a faster out of station interchange. It also understands the transfer time, so it knows that to transfer between Thameslink and the sub-surface Tube lines it's better to ride an extra stop to Farringdon where there's a cross-platform transfer rather than at St Pancras where you have to walk the length of the entire station. Clever stuff.
This is quite a North America-centric view. As you may have seen in London, Citymapper supports every single feature you mentioned - real-time data for all modes, instant recalculation of connections, avoiding stairs / changes / walks, preferring certain modes over others, mixed-mode trips (public transport + cycle / cab), fares, platform numbers, even which part of the train to sit on for a quick exit, and which exit to use at the station.
and london is adding way more cities all the time, such as Cardiff and Bristol (which covers my home city of Bath)
Dutch (The Netherlands) transit routing apps are quite good: they include real time delays, train occupancy, rental bikes on the station you arrive, and so on. I can sometime beat the planner, mainly because transport is so often.
I think the apps of the provider are the way to go. Here in Germany most of the apps are also super useful and also let you buy tickets and stuff right from the app. You can also add your favorite lines and get updates about service changes and construction in advance
@@Tobias_M_T Bahn de app !! 👍. Is better for a lot european countries , than in those countries own apps !
If you can beat the routing app, it's a bad app, because it's not up to date in that case.
@@richardhee It takes into account that switching trains takes a few minutes (2-5) But when a train arrives a bit early, or the connection is a bit late, I can catch a better connection than planned for me. (Trains run every 10 or 15 minutes)
As a software engineer that works on highly complex systems (and knowing the modern state of software and non-software systems), it makes me want to pull my hair out to learn about implementation details such as these.
I do often wonder WHAT is happening behind the scenes when these decisions are being made, and by whom.
because all the competent software engineers are in the private sector then public. they're all driven by $$$
@@mondude89 Often the transit apps/websites are made by a private software company hired by a transport company. The big problem then is often bad communication between the transport company and the software company, because the upper ranks of the transport company, who does the communication, aren't fully aware of the problems needing solving. The end product is too often an app/website looking good, but lacking functionality.
@@mondude89 Of course people with high skill deserve to be rewarded according to the work they created. Question is whether people control the money willing to pay properly
@@stephenspackman5573 it makes sense, engineers just like to solve problems after all
@@runeodin7237 Also, low-bid contracting.
Great video! It definitely comes down to "garbage in, garbage out" as you were saying. Many transit agencies aren't investing in the tools needed to provide a more detailed level of information to these apps, such as individual trip cancellations and stop closures. On the other hand though, apps have sort of plateaued in terms of their ability to display some of the more detailed data that transit agencies compile, including prioritizing transfers at bus stops with shelters. The fact that Google Maps and GTFS still don't properly support on-demand transit is becoming a growing issue as many agencies adopt this mode.
Absolutely, the blame goes all around, we can do much better!
GTFS is an extensible standard. And GTFS-flex already supports on-demand transit.
I appreciate every video you do . The detail and love for transit that we all share . I can't comment in the great detail because I just can not but I know that transit and walking and intercity rail is key . Continue to educate me in all of this regard. You are young and I am old . Thanks so much!
10 hours ago
Thanks for the support and for watching :D
@@RMTransit Indeed the amount of research it took just to get a grasp of the non-standard nomenclature for different services, and the deep appreciation you have for the nuances that pertain to transit connections for the rider was impressive in this video. I follow many urbanist and transit channels on TH-cam, and yours has emerged as one of the very best. Bravo.
I find google maps has gotten really good in Paris, when taking the metro or the RER it shows you where the nearest entrance is and tells you which exit is the best, it also clearly highlights the direction you have to take and where you currently are. The only thing lacking from the transit focused apps are where is the best placement in the metro for your exit.
I believe Citymapper has this in some cities; dunno if it's rolled out to Paris yet!
@@SilverScroll It does! It also has the exit suggestions which is good in combination with the metro's good exit wayfinding. Analog signage is still very important to complement apps (this is true for driving as well).
@@SilverScroll Yes Citymapper is available in Paris, but I generally use RATP when I visit.
The RATP app has the best placement on the train for your exit in Paris. But in my experience, Paris metro trains are so tiny it doesn’t really matter. But if you’re on the elisabeth line, you’d probably want to know which sidr
@@lik7953 That's really cool to have that feature in the official local app! I may not like Paris, but the RATP know what they're doing with a lot of things.
I have actually sworn by citymapper it's been the smoothest in my opinion and I like that you can swipe all the steps, so even if you lose connection you can still see what your next directions would be.
I do agree about sudden delays. Those are rarely propagated to such apps.
One thing I also like about Citymapper is how reactive they are to feedback. So if you notice something does not match up to reality, you can tell them and they'll fix it!
CityMapper is good, but it seems to really be best in Europe
@@RMTransit I am in Europe so checks out? My US friends tend to use Transit.
@@ThomasJM Works wonders in Montreal, sad that Ottawa is not included! Some of those bus routes can be pretty confusing to non-natives. Was lucky that I was with Ottawan friends when I visited.
Citymapper works amazing in the NYC tri-state area in my experience (I live there), though it does help that NYC is one of the first cities that Citymapper did after London so there's a lot more data to go by. I will say though that it doesn't do a great job communicating service changes from the MTA and sometimes live tracking goes out especially on buses, but I think that's the transit agency's fault
As a student in Budapest, I'm totally satisfied with Google Maps' transit navigation, it's a perfectly smooth experience 99% of the time, even outside of Budapest. Inside the city Maps usually picks up transit anomalies pretty fast and alerts me if I try to take the route, or just reroutes if needed. For planning intercity train trips I do prefer the dedicated app, but I would use that for buying tickets anyways so it's pretty natural. Had pretty much the same experience in other major European cities as well, and this is coming from someone with the navigation skills of a dead fish.
A good example of problems with transit in mapping apps is timed transfers. My local transit agency uses them very heavily, meaning they have two metro trains pulling in at the same time at opposite sides of the platform, people can switch, and then they leave a minute later. The app of the agency knows this and suggests the trip like that with basically no transfer time, but Google Maps thinks
Maybe that's because Google Maps can't tell the difference between a cross-platform transfer and a transfer where you have to go to an entirely different part of the station.
This is an indication of your transit authority not properly implementing the GTFS standard for these connections. Because with GTFS you can have same-platform-transfer and timed transfers, the transit authority just has to provide them as such.
Google Maps caters exclusively to car-addicted suburbanites, at least in North America.
As somebody who's written code for transport agencies to make real-time data available for apps, and who's used public transport in dozens of cities in the last few months, wow, this episode gave me a LOT to think about! Thanks!
As someone who’s never had a driver’s license as a result of a learning disability, I can say that the inconvenience of transit wait times is nothing compared to how nervous I get behind the wheel.
These map apps have been a lifeline for me during these past few years as I started discovering and using mass transit for the first time. They do have their quirks and inconveniences, but you also learn and adapt over time. It’s a skill worth learning.
Something that google maps really falls flat on is multi-operator journeys. For example I have one option to travel into town, and can buy a day ticket for that operator. But once in town there are multiple bus operators to the same destination which don't all accept each other's tickets, so google might end up recommending a more expensive trip to someone.
Great video. I have to say I’m pretty happy relying on Citymapper in most instances it’s available - it doesn’t deal with every quirk of individual systems (especially for newer cities) but there is huge value in being able to use the same familiar interface in so many cities, and generally it gets most things right and (importantly) easy.
As a Londoner, citymapper is a godsend. It gives every single public transport option, choices on how you want to get there (only bus, only train or fastest for eg), has good audio and visual directions for cycling or walking. The integration of other services such as Uber or various electric scooter or bike rental companies mean you really have everything in one place, showing the prices of everything. They have good disability access and have clear info, update quickly with delays, suggest times for you to leave. I like the extra features such as, in the run up to the Elizabeth line being released, it showed you how your future journey could change and the jokey options such as “teleporting”
Love the little zoom at 7:05 on the placating hand gesture, as if you're stopping an infuriated viewer from lunging at you.
The Schedule Explorer on Google Maps was really useful for finding the best time to make intercity trips, but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.
I still maintain the SBB (Swiss National Rail) app is by far and away thee best transit app in existence. It even worked for my international connections throughout Europe (to include the London Tube) and I can purchase tickets, upgrades (within Switzerland) and even have my rail pass on the app which is scanned by controllers. It's incredibly intuitive, easy to navigate and should be a case study for anyone studying UI/UX. Even shows you which platform, and the train composition and what amenities are on your train for your scheduled route.
One thing I love about transit over driving is just being able to do other things while on the move like watch TH-cam. Can’t do that while driving.
I’m lucky that the Munich transit system has their own app which allows you to put in your start and end location and time of departure and it’ll automatically give your various routes to get there. It even takes into account track/line closures due to construction sites which has saved me from going the wrong direction more than once. I hope every city will get a good transit mapping system soon even if it’s just google maps as it makes taking public transit a lot easier.
In a perfect world, every city (and regional/intercity/international systems as well!) would just publish the data in a standardized format that can be used by all map apps. It would create so many options
@@jan-lukas So many metropolitan areas already have their stock digitally equipped. Whats really missing is the right app, that even helps you with times and tickets when you´re on vacation etc.
Having an individualized app seems good, but then a lot of work is being duplicated in every city needlessly
@@RMTransit they can just hire the same agency which has developed the app. It's not like the MVV has an actual division full of app developers.
Germany wide it's possible to use the DB Navigator App even for non-DB services like U-Bahnen or Buses.
Google maps can do all that too, it just heavily depends if the transit agencies forward the data to third parties.
In Germany most cities have their own apps, but as a whole there is an App called DB Navigator which covers pretty much all transit nationwide. From ICE trains to local Buses. It also shows delays and SEV services (replacement buses for when the rail service is interrupted).
It's actually really good.
I think a more precise way would be to say that each ‘Verkehrsverbund’ has its own app. But since most ‘Verkehrsverbünde’ are centered around a large city, that is not much of a distinction.
@@aphextwin5712 yeah ok, I didn't want to go into those details because I'm not sure if transit authorities/ associations are understood by everyone.
Brilliant - I'll have to watch this a couple more times to digest the finer points (so many of them) - but this encapsulates a lot of really important stuff, which the transit industry/ies need to take up.
I am happy with the Transit app; it may not be perfect but it gives me the info I need. My son was recently visiting me, he used Transit to get around the city he didn't know.
My big complaint is different, and has to do with walking. I live in Minneapolis, we have an extensive skyway system downtown, and **none** of the apps cover the skyway! Try using G Maps to walk between two places, and it throws you onto the streets. Businesses that operate on the Skyway level may or may not be on the map. The best skyway navigation tool I know is a 10+ year old PDF map.
Have to mention that Auckland, New Zealand's AT Mobile app is one of the best transit app I ever used. It combines everything from walking, cycling to buses, trains and ferries, with multiple travel plan for me to pick base on my preferences, plus the service cancelation and delay notice are always accurate with new suggestion for travel plan when ever that happens. It also estimate the cost of every travel plan for comparing. Even if I catch a bus that is earlier/later than the one suggested by the app, it can tell I am on that bus by the speed and direction I am moving, and adjust the travel plan accordingly.
I remember having to pick up paper timetable books for the transit here. Nowadays, I just punch in my starting address (or let my phone know my location) and my destination, and get five suggestions for how to get there, with tracking of both my own location and the vehicles involved. If a connecting bus is delayed, the app gives me an alternative route.
I live in the Phoenix metro area in the US, and the Transit App is basically perfect for our system Valley Metro. I've never had a bad experience with the app and it always lets me know about delays and shows me where the vehicle currently is while I'm waiting for it!
With pretty much all transit operators in Australia, data API's are all publicly available, pretty much allowing any developer to create an app for public transport. My personal favourite is AnyTrip, which shows a live map of all buses, trains, trams. When you click on a bus, train or tram it will show the vehicle model, schedule, what operator, it's capacity and it's speed. It's a super cool tool and it's very fun if your bored to just stare at a bunch of buses and trains moving 🤣
As a Londoner with an Android phone: Firstly, great to see all that London footage (haha). Secondly, my experience with Google Maps, TFL and the UK mainline rail network has been on the whole very positive. There's definitely things that could be improved, but it's honestly pretty good these days. The only thing that can sometimes be a problem is if I'm already on a train, and I'm trying to work out alternative options at a certain stop coming up. Sometimes I have to cancel out of my trip and then put the starting point of my journey as the stop I'm planning to get off at, and then guess what time I should put in as the departure time from that stop, to work out if taking a different train might be faster. This often comes into play when my train is running late and will miss the connection that Google said I should make. For example, recently I was supposed to get off and change at Surbiton, but my train was late and I knew I'd miss the connection, so then I had to fake that I was already at Surbiton to try and decide which train I should catch when I actually got there.
I agree with this. I think "all" we're asking for is dynamic recomputation of the journey solution on the go - just like sat navs do for cars. The app could periodically recompute and alert you that you may wish to alter your itinerary if there was a significant change to the predicted arrival time at the final trip destination - either earlier or later. Particularly for the national rail network, this sort of information is available to the apps (e.g. websites like Real Time Trains can use the data to predict arrival times) One sticking point might be ticket validity - it's an added complication, but solvable I'd have thought.
Have you talked about detours? Detours happen because of construction, an accident, route closers, etc. How does it affect transit?
Silicon Valley: “what is transit?”
Super random, but I've just realized that we knew each other for a little while years ago! Been enjoying your vids for a bit, and it only just clicked for me why you seemed so familiar haha. Keep up the good work!
As a person with dyspraxia these issues do make transit harder for me especially in new places. Things like the bus stops being moved or next to 5 identical bus stops can cause me confusion (I’ve problems with Figure ground discrimination) and make me loose my transport connection for example. Also one annoying feature on google maps is I usually don’t like; the walking instructions within transit journey isn’t the same as walking instructions by itself, it’s completely different. So I usually have set the station and “walk” to that and then scramble to re-input my transit route again. Another annoyance is when google maps and the transport provider are giving you contradictory information. For people like me, lack of consistency can really lead you to getting lost or missing out connections.
It's interesting, because I grew up traveling on public transport without using an app, I find having an app great because it simplifies the things I was already doing. For example, I don't expect it to plan my whole route from start to finish, but it means I can check options before I reach the exchange.
Yes, exactly!
there's just so many factors that go into a public transport trip.
I might prefer a slightly longer trip if I know the transport modes tend to be more comfortable or less crowded, or cheaper, or if I can have less transfers, or if my waits are at more pleasant stops/stations, or if I can walk less, or if I know the lines are more reliable and/or frequent (either less likely to miss connections, or less wait if I do), etc.
Many of these are info that are things that are hard to add to an app, and different people will undoubtedly have different preferences, complicating things even further.
As you make the same trip often, you'll get a better sense of these things, much like you'd learn the shortcuts and quiet roads when driving the same journey often.
GTFS and its Real-time extension are actually a very good system for standardizing the unstandardizable world of transit. But implementing it is challenging for many smaller transit providers. GTFS real-time, if implemented properly, will allow Google Maps to inform about expected punctuality based on traffic on the route, road closures, redirections and past data from that route for certain times. Many of the problems listed here are actually solved, it just takes transit providers to properly implement the standard. I've even had Maps inform me about a better route while on route, where I could get off earlier and take a train that had a delay and was quicker than the original route.
What's important is that this data is made available in a common standard. Otherwise the apps will remain localized because app devs would otherwise have to adapt to every different standard themselves. And GTFS is, because it is implemented by many transit authorities at least in some way, a very good candidate to adopt. It is an open standard as well, allowing everyone to access the feeds of transit authorities.
One aspect that affects at least Stockholm in Google maps is that the app doesn't understand at all that stations can have more than one exit. Which means it wants you to walk up to about 4 blocks past the closest entry, which of course messes up the route planning as a whole since it doesn't understand which station is actually the closest.
The real solution for this might be to have the platforms and walkpaths inside the station be part of what is mapped? They do map out the interiors of chopping malls, so why not also stations?
hm. Re-purposing the system that shows the interiors of shopping malls to show the platforms, tunnels, escalators, bus bays, etc of a transit station does sound like it'd be the easiest way to make this happen?
They could try making that work for Stockholm Central first, then it should be good enough for most stations.
Yup, did that to me in London Victoria, and then it turned out the accessible entrance to the underground was in an entirely different third place
From my experience OpenStreetMap usually has these things mapped, but I don't know if any good transit navigation apps use that data
Thank you for highlighting an important issue, as someone who has used a number of southern Ontario transit systems, inconsistency. Different nomanclature, way finding, apps, and payment methods (looking at you GRT) make something that should be so simple and easy more inconvenient and tempt me to get in my car and use the dreaded 401.
Google Maps in London is great for navigating the bus system when the train breaks down at random stops.
Apps like Transit and Citymapper have made navigating even in a city I’m familiar with so much more easier - a lot of less-used bus stops are nothing more than faded signboards on an electric post.
I also enjoy how dedicated transit apps gameify the commuting experience, such as calculating the amount of CO2 saved or showing the number of riders you’ve helped
Having watched Wendover's and Adam Something's recent videos about the issues with international rail travel in Europe, the same theme about SNCF/DB/Renfe not opening up their data platforms crop up as well. I'm very happy to say this is something that the UK absolutely nails with plenty of real-time data APIs that various apps can hook into to figure out bus, train and rapid transit timings as well as the all-important data on delays so that they can be accounted for.
And it's not just transport, the entire public sector is very good when it comes to open data in general. There's a strong culture of providing readily available data in standardised formats and public APIs.
The rail data in the UK is so open, that third-party services like RealTimeTrains give more accurate data than National Rail. I was recently trying to catch a train, and NRE were saying it would arrive with 2 minutes before my change (which would mean I wouldn't be able to get home before midnight as the next train was an hour later), but RTT knew the actual timetable and said the actual time it was both scheduled (and did) arrive at the station, meaning I was able to rush across to the platform and get the train that would get me home before the trains stopped for the night.
Phil Stockley, who has a regular comment column in the UK 'Buses' magazine, wrote an excellent article in the June issue, the main point of which was that bus companies are missing out a trick in not standardising practice in some publicity areas: doing so would make it much easier for people to travel by transit all over the country as easily as they can drive (as you point out). Certainly in the UK, going to a city you don't know and relying on being able to find out quickly how to get somewhere by bus, can feel like being in a foreign country.
I don't know anything about creating apps, but I think that the key to getting this right is to understand that if you grew up using public transportation, learning to get anywhere on time by car feels like speaking a 2nd language, and the reverse is true if you grew up being driven everywhere. There's a psychological component to this that I don't think app developers are tapping into. Maybe that's because most of the people who create these apps are highly paid tech workers who grew up being schlepped around everywhere by their parents. I grew up riding SEPTA in Philly with a mother who doesn't drive, and using schedules to make multiple transfers was as essential to me as going to the bathroom is for everybody else (Oh, and information about bathrooms at transfer points is something these apps need). When I got my first car I was almost 26, and I was always late for everything. Granted, I was in Boston during the "Big Dig", so it wasn't always my fault, but when I returned to Philly, I was still late for everything, until I got rid of the car. I've had a few cars after that, but getting somewhere on time in a car always felt like speaking a 2nd language to me. I have no doubt that the opposite is true for most of the people creating public transit apps, and those apps will continue to suck until they are written by people like me (well, me plus coding skills that I don't have), who grew up having adventures on public transportation with a parent who didn't drive.
I started this video thinking the entire premise was bs because I thought I've always had a good experience with my "default app," but you convinced me: it sucks.
I was waiting for someone to make a video about this. Thank God for Citymapper
The Korean native map services (Naver and Kakao) are both amazingly integrated with public transit. One of my favorite little tips is when doing a trip with multiple subway transfers, the app will tell you which train door to get into in order to have the shortest walking distance for your transfer. I also really like how when taking a bus, the app tells you whether the bus is empty, crowded, or full. It's little things like that that I take for granted.
The transit planning system of Switzerland is based on HAFAS a system developed in Germany and used in many European countries. Every country with their own interfaces but underlying always the same input data and logic. For example the German App DB Navigator knows all trains in Europe and all local transit all over Germany. Most of data is real time considering delays which results in corrected connections .
Here in the UK I’ve always found the public transport feature on apple maps to be excellent. You just put in your destination and it’s only one click to switch to public transport including trains, trams and busses.
I've found that Google Maps, in places that support it, is very helpful and almost the only thing you need to get around with transit. But the big problem is that it doesn't let you view actual transit maps, and instead only gives you directions from A to B. This is a huge drawback that I think could be fixed very easily, because they pretty much already have the routes mapped out internally in order to give you directions, and providing a way to see all routes on one screen would allow for much more flexibility in deciding what route you want to take.
Google Maps is actually excellent for navigating London's transport network. It helped in Hamburg this week as well 😁
I use TripGo in Australia as Citymapper hasn’t arrived in my city.
I like the search result style of commute options, complete with map routing, transfer window and estimated costs based on which mode or multi-modal filter one picked - eg. bike and train, or bus and walk
A key flaw that I think Gmaps is working on slowly is inter-model journeys where one starts or ends cycling or driving or even some systems where one can take their bike on specific trains allowing cycling transfers. I still use navigation apps but oftern have to look at the route not only from my home but also from my nearest mainline stations I can cycle too.
I say it is improving, as in the UK at least Gmaps has started suggesting routs where one gets a cab at the end if you are going somewhere more remote.
Citymapper has this option already, you can choose the "Mixed" routing which will show you cycling + public transport or cabs + public transport
Google Maps is still complete useless when it comes to keeping you on designated bike routes, let alone a combination of transit and cycling.
I personally use citymapper in Paris, because it is the app, which is the gives the most information in a very clear and efficient way. For example the app tells me sometimes on which part of the train I should get in knowing which change or exit I should use.
Also I agree that we should have a way of knowing what is the fastest trip in the coming hour for instance.
I always start by looking at a .pdf of the transit system map, so I have an idea of where things are and what sort of connections are reasonable. Then I use an app (either Google Maps or something specific to the transit agency) and compare to see what works most efficiently.
On behalve of the Dutch i would like to thank you for your compliment.
Haha thank you for your nice trains
I actually have a pretty good experience with using stuff like Google maps for transport both in my and other cities, although sometimes the schedules can be a bit outdated.
I thought this video would be about how annoying it is that transit agencies seem to slowly be getting rid of paper/digital schedules at stops and just want you to use your phone, which wastes battery and I don't like the idea of needing a phone with a plan just to get around. Not to mention risk of water damage when it's raining and difficulty seeing the screen when it's sunny.
Don't get me started about cycling though. I don't cycle much but Google Maps does not make it easy. There's no way to know wheather the route it suggests uses bike lanes, sidewalks, or roads and I don't feel confident enough to bike on roads yet (even sorrows make me nervous), and where I live certain types of bikes aren't supposed to be ridden on the sidewalk (plus as apedestrian I hate cyclists using sidewalks so I want to avoid using them anyways).
I have to agree with this. I recently took a trip to Mexico City and used Google maps. It worked amazingly well. Considering that I'm a foreigner and a poor Spanish speaker, I was able to navigate around the city on the Metro and Metrobuses quite effectively using Google maps exclusively.
Couple of examples for train routes that go wrong in London are Moorgate to Whitechapel. Various planners (including Google and the official app, but not the TFL website) ignore the lifts and escalators from Moorgate station to the Elizabeth Line and instead suggest walking or London Underground to Liverpool Street station, Citymapper and the TFL website get this right . And for Forest Gate to Devons Road it is suggested (by Google etc) a silly walk around Stratford station out of one exit to another non-existent entrance.
I understand your point about safe/convenient connections etc. but overall, in the U.K. at least, I think transit apps are pretty impressive. Real-time trains is an incredible source for rail data. And Apple maps not only showing live bus times but also notifying you when your stop is approaching is an absolute game changer for me as a VI.
Real time trains is also a trainspotters favorite app
Live train times are good for sure and a fairly standardized feature now, but it’s more about combining many vehicles into a journey where I think things can get tripped up
Little old Moncton out in New Brunswick has an app for their bus system that features not only mapping but LIVE buses running on that map. I've seen my friend say "my bus has just turned onto X street, if we head south we can catch it on Y street." He said his Mom loves it because, in winter, she doesn't have to leave her home until she's sure her bus is getting close - if her bus is delayed due to whatever, she can see if live on the map either sitting in traffic or, even, diverted to get around the problem. I've never seen a city with that much data available to the rider.
In London it’s exceedingly easy actually. Citymapper shows every possible option to get where you’re going, showing the time, price, interchange and other variables and providing live updates. I have exclusively used it ever since I’ve been living here.
One thing I will say about Switzerland’s pulsed transit and the SBB app is that it can be quite stressful sometimes when needing to do transfers. I’ve had it a few times where my train is only a few minutes delayed getting to a station and I’m pretty much running on the platform like a mad man trying to catch the next train or tram. That’s where I do like more frequency based systems like in Toronto and Montreal. If I miss one I know it’s not much of a wait for the next.
I have had great transit experiences with Google Maps in Washington, DC; Boston, MA; The Netherlands. YMMV depending on city.
I especially love your videos when I see a shot that is a 5 minute walk away from my house lol
Thinking about it, i always used public transport during my last vacations. Might be difficult but if Google (Maps) could offer options to view arrival times and the right ticket options for your trip, it would be an absolute game changer. While in Barcelona or Porto for example, i partially felt totally lost regarding ticket options.
Would also be cool to see a startup trying to offer like global ticket access for public transport. But that has to happen in coherence with the administrations and tourist boards.
At the moment there is Inter-/EU-rail so there is possibilities (at least in EU). The issue is that most local transit is funded by the local government so prices/agreements will have to be made by every local government.
It would be cool if we had some kind of "EU-Oystercard" , which could be used for transit tickets across all of EU. In Denmark we have Rejsekortet, which is a blue card that can be used as a ticket on all public transit. You have to check in once you start your journey and also check in when you make a transfer. Then your check out when you reach your destination. You can even transfer from one operator to another without having to check out first.
The price you pay depends on where you travel but the operators set their own fares, and then there are algorithms in place to make sure the operators are paid correctly. There is also 20% offpeak discount (only Jutland and Funen), and a discount if you travel a lot. If you make 36 trips in a month within a certain region you get 40% discount within that region.
Since it works in Denmark it could potentially work across multiple countries as well.
I do agree that public transport was added later to the included map apps on mobile phones (Google Maps, Apple Maps, Bing/Edge Maps) that's only because transit companies and 3rd parties made the apps first using the api's available from Google, Apple and Microsoft. It's only when those third party apps took off that the big three added the functionality to their included mapping apps, granted there has been improvements in the standard apps, they aren't perfect. I have the problem in Greater Manchester that there's several different companies and their apps provide better information, so I have the FirstBus App and the Stagecoach App depending on what part of the county i'm travelling in. Other problems is that the standard map app doesn't show real time timetables on the Metrolink either, just scheduled times... So when it metrolink does fail (it's often...) you can arrive to nothing at all.
ehhh, in austria we use the öbb scotty app and it works really well throughout the entire country (be it trains, trams, metro, busses, etc.)
idk if it would work in other countries (i think it can do regional trains, however i'm not sure it can do local transit within cities outside of austria) but yeah, within austria it's always been rather accurate in my experience. it shows delays in real time as well or tells you when you need to take a rail replacement service due to construction works or an event going on in town or whatever other reason. it gives you multiple connections as well (some slower, some fast, some direct ones, some with changes) so you can really see what works best for you personally. oh and it even tells you speific services that are provided on that specif train or bus, for example whether there's wifi or space for wheelchairs and so on
wifi connection is hardly ever a problem either (unless you're in a tunnel going through a mountain), so when i'm out and about i usually always have scotty open and can take a different route on a whim if something comes up
I think the usefullness of thransit apps depends on the country you live in. Most of the problems you highlited in this video are already solved in the netherlands since so much data is available to these apps. I can just use google maps, tell it where I want to go and when I want to leave and I will get many different options that are all quite optimal, without having to think about when I will depart, since it is not nessacary with frequent scheduling ofc. Delays are shown in real time and for buses you can even see the location of the bus on the map(although it only updates like once a minute, it is still usefull to see that it is arriving soon). When a train is cancled it will say it too, even when there is maintance to like the railways going on it will show you alternative routes so you do not end up stranded. You also have options to connect to the destination by bycle or by foot which works great in the netherlands because the vast cycling network is ofc completly maped out by google.
In Singapore, using Google Maps or Apple Maps for navigating transit is actually very very easy, as realtime information about transit (i.e. train/bus arrival times, delays, extended service, etc) is all available as APIs from the numerous transit operators. Additionally, transit here is very frequent, and it is unlikely you will wait for anything for more than 10 minutes (unless you are taking an infrequent bus route). However, one of the only pitfalls that Google Maps/Apple Maps experience is that it often does not provide the best possible route. Usually, the apps will forgo taking the bus and make you walk quite a distance that could easily be taken by a short bus ride; I suspect that this is because the algorithm for picking a route tends to ignore buses, as taking the bus in North America is a little bit more of a nightmare
I take the bus to work everyday in the Capital District of NY (transit is CDTA) and there are some things I like about google maps and some that i wish it would improve on. I wanted an option where I could bike to a stop near me, get on the bus, and then get off at a spot near my work. First of all, even though it made it seem like you could get biking directions in the transit routing, you couldn’t. It would only allow you to walk to stops which didn’t make sense because the nearest bus stop on the route i wanted to take was a mile away from my house and i wanted a commute that was about a half-hour, not an hour. So I had to find two bus stops, pin the route between those two stops, and then memorize the amount of time it takes me to bike to the stop every morning. The one thing i do like is the live times it gives you so you know when you can take a few extra minutes in your morning routine when the bus gets stuck in traffic. I think google maps is better for having a transit commute that you do often, and not really when you want to use transit to go other places.
2:24 "funiculars" NEVER heard that word before! I love it! I learned a new word today! Also, if that's what funiculars are: SO ADORABLE!
Another consideration when planning a transit trip is the trade-off between speed and cost. For example, a bus trip is often cheaper and more time-consuming than a train trip.
Here in the UK our private buss companies have their own apps as they don't let other apps access their data so in a lot of places you need 5 freaking apps to figure out where and how long it will be till your buss gets to the stop if that area even has the buss GPS on the app thanks stagecoach thankfully some of our rail apps have been adding real time info on the route you set which is great for when it's the same journey in that one area thankfully we've got real-time trains that give actuall Info of where abouts the train is and how it been running
Hmmm.
And then theres london where everything just well turns up within 10 minutes.
Yeah that’s really not good! More apps are much harder to maintain too!
In Europe there are dozens of apps for public transport that are quite good and reliable. Even google maps is pretty good. In the Netherlands there is an app for public transport for the whole country.
In Australia I use google maps and it actually works really well. I have only used it in Victoria and NSW, so take that what you will but other than that it has been really amazing, use it every week.
There's a good app in US called "Transit" They work with the different operators - and It'll let you know when you're 2 stops away!
Use your city's trip planner. If you can figure that out, you can get anywhere via transit.
The UK has a standardised format for transit data called TransXChange, and everything is available in that format. However if you have ever tried to write an app that makes use of it, you will very quickly lose the will to live. GTFS is just so much easier to understand. Fortunately you can get most of the data in that format as well.
Depends where you are I guess... Google Maps works really well with TfNSW in Sydney...
It works brilliantly Google maps here in the UK! Often quicker than my go to route dependent on situation I may follow there route. Often has changed and planned well. But can change settings too but in London it works brilliantly well.
I live in the DC area and I need to use at least three apps. Citymapper best provides me with directions to get to a place I haven't been and provides information on where most of the scooters are at. Transit tells me which buses and trains are around me at that instant. Metrohero best tracks the exact location and timing of trains, whether there are any issues, and the exact timing of any train transfers. I supplement Citymapper with Google Maps because one sometimes provides me with a shorter path than the other. Both suck at realizing that the fastest path sometimes is to overshoot by a stop or two on the Metro and double back 5-10 minutes on a bus instead of a 30 minute bus ride.
Good insights, Reece!
A good example of bad trip planning on transit is getting to West Harbour Go train station in Hamilton. I live 290m or 3 minute walk from the entrance to the station, but since that's not the main station entrance, when I plan a Go train trip on Google to somewhere in Toronto for example, it tells me my trip starts with a 650m 8 minute walk. Which is hilariously bad for those using the transit station who don't recognize there is a second entrance, especially coming from Copps Coliseum downtown Hamilton (where a lot of Toronto people have been going to see their old Lacrosse team play).
Another thing that matters is that for a car, you can just type in where you want and that gives you a good idea of arrival time. With transit, at least in Google maps, it assumes you are not disabled, not a slower walker, senior, or with children. A 5 minute walk up some stairs and across a plaza for a transfer, may take my grandfather 10 minutes, and both not be preferred over closer transfers, and may mean he misses his transfer.
I really like it when transit agencies let you add a card to your apple wallet or the android equivalent. Makes everything really easy, it’s a shame that Boston doesn’t have this..
I used to use Hyperdia when I lived in Japan and it was really good. It would show you multiple possible routes (all fast) and didn't favour one type of transit over another unless you asked it via a filter (for example "no shinkansen").
It's probably also worth noting that one of the biggest failures I've noticed in navigation/mapping for driving, is almost entirely an externality to the drivers: if your destination does not have parking (or if you're going to be there briefly enough, a layby) that you can use, the navigation apps generally don't direct you and your car to a reasonable place to put said car while you do the thing that you headed to your destination for -- but that's what bike lanes are for, so no need to let the app developers know that it's a problem :P
This might be a chicago-specific issue, but also the CTA lies on its schedules. So there will be some buses on the schedule that just don't come. This means a 10 minute transfer ends up taking 30 minutes because the bus you were supposed to transfer to never came.
The clip of "confusing road sign" is of course Pittsburgh. :)
I have been trying to find a picture of the orange sign at the end of the West End bridge that showed the detour when the Ft Pitt tunnel was closed. It was pure madness. But, sadly, it was in the late 90s back before we recorded everything.
I certainly agree it would be inconvenient not having internet connection while riding public transit.
Back in June this year, a line-side fire near Stratford halted all services on the Great Eastern Main Line from Liverpool Street to Norwich, and unfortunately, I was caught in the delay. Back then I was on a Central Line train of the Tube, because of not having internet connection, I was not notified of this until I reached Liverpool Street National Rail station. Having internet connection surely is important in a transit system like the Tube as it allows riders to be notified of any delays immediately, instead of relying on the PA system onboard.
I gather TfL was looking at rolling out Wifi/4G in the tunnels (it's currently in stations only) - but suspect it's on hold as a lot of projects have been paused with the current Mayor vs National Government squabbles
I love the transit app and that I was able to use it in other cities besides my own. It has made using mass transit much more feasible. I don’t think I could manage the bus network in KC and circumventing transfers or what line to get on without it.
I took a look at it on the play store, and there seem to be a lot of folks complaining that several features are hidden behind a subscription. Have you noticed any issues caused by this?
@@slaterpenna2797 it’s a great app, even without the subscription
In google Maps and apple maps on the Iphone, they show some routes like some amtrack and MBTA and MTA things
Imo Citymapper works really well in London
I use it and I would say It’s pretty close to seamless
I love transit (subways) for trips within the city, and I love my car for going out of the city.
But bicycles? No way!!!
Speaking of time to travel, it's a shame Google seems to be withdrawing it's timeline feature which showed you different journeys across a day. It was really useful for long or complex journeys that lined up well a few times a day.
Reece knows this from a recent UITP Transit Information and Wayfinding Design Course I curated and of which he was a key part. Navigation apps for Transit should not nor ever be considered as the be all and end all for anyone to be able to easily use any transit system. So often, the simple static signage at stations is poorly designed, poorly deployed, and poorly maintained. Only when you put a lot of time and effort into the design and deployment of static wayfinding signage at stations - for example, into things like directional signage, station locality maps, station precinct maps, route maps, network maps etc, does it result in lasting transit service take-up. Japan and Hong Kong are good examples. Transit info at the frontline, must be well-designed to be really, really easy to understand and on top of that, static media comms channels for wayfinding need to tightly integrate with digital ones so that it all works seamlessly together. Far too often, transit systems are ditching static wayfinding signage because they believe that everyone now uses an app. This is absolutely not true and by thinking this, these transit providers are just embedding inequity in their transport services and in the wider city. The trend right around the world, is for provision of integrated bus, tram and metro train services, so that users dont have think (or plan) about where they want to go, how and why - they just ‘go’. This means that multimodal, exceedingly legible, simple yet effective integrated service network wayfinding systems that is a blend of digital and print media communications, are absolutely crucial to getting people to use the services more often. What is most concerning to me is transit service provider bog ignorance of the simple fundamental truth - wayfinding and travel information design is about marketing and sales communications and until transit providers start thinking in those terms they will continue to turn hundreds,thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people away daily from using their services purely because people either don’t know about them or they dont understand that those services are applicable to their lives in a seven days a week context.
Absolutely Rob, wayfinding is deeply underappreciated even as transit grows in popularity!
It really depends on the country. In Japan, there are excellent transit apps, mostly because people there don't want to lug around thick timetable books, and mass transit is *EVERYTHING* in that country.
There are for sure, but even they have their problems!
@@RMTransit At least in the Tokyo and Osaka areas, the transit apps show all the JR Group and private railway line schedules.
I've rarely seen a video of you where my experience differed so drastically from yours. I probably won't be able to get to all of it, but the TL;DR is that I've abandoned the local transit app because Google Maps is just so much better. And that local map has improved a lot, but Google has just improved more. I still remember when Google made simple (but very irritating) mistakes figuring out where you could walk and where not (because there's a fence in the way). That has improved dramatically.
These days, I'm pretty certain Google's route finder sees the world as a network of connections various different modes of transport can and cannot take at specific costs, and doesn't care if it's a street or a timetable entry. And they (almost) always show alternative routes, though the UI is rather different between car/bike/foot traffic and public transport.
Now for long distance, I still prefer DB's app, but then that involves a lot more pre-planning and considering different tariffs and so on, so a (somewhat) different UI makes a lot of sense there, plus that one is really optimized for trains. It still has its problems, of course.
I think that is enough for now, though I could still say quite a bit, but I can't spend unlimited time on writing this comment 🙂