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I think it is wrong to interpret the Dorian regions as geographically distant from the Archean. It is more about agriculture versus pastoral land. The Dorians were already in southern Greece but they occupied the hill country to graze their sheep. The Archeans were farmers who lived in the river valleys. During the Bronze Age collapse, crops failed due to drought, but the pastoralists jus took their flocks up to higher altitudes for feed. So the Dorians survived while the Archeans starved.
The Spartans weren’t always the ones we know of, with their unique legal system and way of life - they used to be a “normal” Greek polis until they willingly changed their ways. Who were the Helots is an equally interesting question.
You have raised significant questions. When did the Spartans become "The Spartans"? Who were the Helots; Where did they come from? Did the Spartans come from another part of Greece and rule the Helots by right of conquest? In Ancient Times that was the way tribes justified their dominance of a region. Just having always been there since the ice sheets receded didn't seem to carry much weight; particularly with neighboring tribes who were looking to expand their territory by conquest.
@@johnwilson1094 yeah i mean the Spartan elite apparently (I believe an invicta video talked about this) ceremonially declared war on the helots every year, and thought of themselves as an external group that had come and conquered the natives and made them helots. Like many oral traditions, I feel like there’s some distant cultural memory of truth in there, if not necessarily literal (the elites could still been just as native but developed an idea of separation) There’s also archaeological evidence of italic peoples like the northern Terremare culture migrating and settling or briefly residing in the Peloponesse around the Bronze Age collapse. Then there’s the archaic and classic Greek ideas of the pelasgians being the “original peoples”, connected in some way to Arcadia, but Homer writing they they were allies of Troy Meanwhile Mt Lykaion in Arcadia has evidence of use back to 3rd Millenium BCE with possible Minoan bull seal discovered. And it’s known the Minoans had colonies or at least had a dominate influence over mainland Greece in their heyday I don’t think we’ll really understand what was going on until we look at more obscure groups like the helots
One of Sparta’s Kings wrote a Hebrew Priest a letter in the 2nd century BCE claiming his people were Danites. It actually makes a lot of sense when you look over their artifacts and realize they used Dan’s symbols for their people. There might be a good reason why they were so different from the other Greek Kingdoms
Ok, finally have seen some extra stuff on the issue ... So, in resume, this video is arguing that some people think wrongly that the Micenean palaces were destroyed by some Dorian invasions because ... some unsavory people in Germany thought the Dorians were Germanic based on a flimsy interpretation of a ancient Greek myth ? Also, old idea is old, so, let's discuss new ideas? That's ... weak. Sure, I get this are some minutes blurbs taken from online calls, but surely it would be better for everyone if that was done better. If your guest had touched even cursorily by the reasons people don't like the Dorian invasion idea so much ( instead of calling it simplistic, like if thinking about a migration is not exactly as simplistic ) and why he thinks that the Mycenean palaces were not taken down by external forces ( basically, because some Mycenean palaces seem to have been selectively destroyed, leaving the poor town areas intact ... a somewhat problematic theory on it's own, btw, given that sometimes defensive forces in sieges in ancient times just abandoned the outer walls without a fight and retreated to the citatel if they thought they could not hold them, say, like it appears to have happened in Troy VII ) instead of losing time discussing 20th century politics in a blurb concerning something 3 milenia earlier ...
Yeah, rational discourse in our entire society has been destroyed by the religion of antifascism. Every issue is no longer discussed on its merits, but on whether or not the mythical evil nazis believed it, because then it must surely be false.
@@vogelszijnlelijk Yet everyone in the Divided Snakes of America is in the public indoctrination system told to believe that macro-evolution were scence, and Nazis adpted that Germanic racist myth. The US hides the fact that Nazis were macr-evolutionists, because it wants to portray the myth as fact when it's just racist shit I refuted in "Neanderthals are a lie, millions of years dates are lies, and there never was an ice age." See also "Greeks, Latins, Iberians and Jews Were, and Are, NOT Blond!"
@@vogelszijnlelijk To be fair the whole German connection is pretty meaningless. The ancient greeks were indo-european. The germanic people and celtic people were also indo-european. It's all just variations of the same culture regardless. You can differentiate between Austrailian culture and Canadian culture if you want to, but if you shouldn't be astounded at how similar they are in comparrison to Bantu culture. Nazism and facism, eugenics, exploitation and might makes right / winner take all ideologies, are foundational and broadly held beliefs in western culture.
Also spartans wore described as taller and with lighter skins. "In his Partheneia, or “Maiden Songs,” the seventh century BC lyric poet Alcman, who was from Sparta, praised the beauty of Spartan female athlete, with “hair of gold and a silver face.” A Spartan poetess is described by Alcman as a “happy girl of golden curls.” Bacchylides, fifth century BC lyric poet, wrote that the hair of the Spartans was blonde (Dith. xx. 2) while also noting of the golden hair of athletes at the Nemean Games (Ep. ix. 23)"
1) "Xanthos" that is used in these writings and was translated as blond in your quotes was a wide therm that described all hair colours except midnight black. 2) These are poetic fictions and they cannot be used to establish the physical type of the Spartans. 3) We have DNA of the Ancient Spartans and they don't look different from Mycenaeans.
From a linguistic point of view, we find the Dorian dialect to be a dialect spoken in today's Greek land long before the Attic /Ionian. The latter used endings that were used in the Levant (Luwian, Hittite, Lycian, in Miletus etc) and Aegean islands. Dorians were named after the place Dorida in Greece. They were locals in North of Greece. The speakers of this dialect were also living in Crete. This is likely the same dialect spoken in old Macedonia. Similar to pelasgian if not the same. The Achaeans /Mycenaeans, who i think had close relation to Hittites, had a language, Linear B, a bit changed and more Greek comparing to the Doric which was more 'Slavic-like' lets say at the time. After the fall of Troy, the Trojans and others from the levant joined forces (sea peoples) against the Hittites, Minoans and of course Mycenaeans. They attacked Egypt, Cyprus and basically all trade centres. Trojans and Lycians and those from Luka/loukia were in the same group. They took revenge, they ended the Hittite Empire and dominated in the regions. This shift of power from the levant to Attic, whole of Greece and Italy and the new writing system, creates new empires towards the West. Of course the Dorians will lift in Power after the dark ages but later they become part of the Hellenic power.
So it wasn’t people from the north migrating into Greece and adopting their traditions. It was just Greeks being Greeks in Greece with a few hundred years in between the Heroic & Historic eras?
Dorians were the last greek tribe they came from North Epirus today central and southern Albania also some Words of Dorian originin : Ionian Greek : Δήμος in Dorian Greek: Δάμος Aslo a Greek female name Ionian Greek : Φερενίκη Dorian Greek Βερενίκη
This dialect were spoken in Peloponnese except central. Also Epirus today Greece and southern Albania , Macedonia not the Slavic country but the part of Greece , Island Crete etc
Dorians are Illyrian tribe from the north that for some reason last 200 years it’s never mentioned. From Epirus up to Germanic tribes lived Illyrians. The most important fact is the Doric language.
Thank you Nick for this upload , I just watched your interview with Rebecca Futo Kennedy in regards to the Dorian invasion and now this pops up! 😊 I would invite you to check out Slavic migration theory. I myself have been exploring the issue and I cannot with good conscience say that it is a valid theory, at least in the light of the evidence. I would recommend reading "The making of the Slavs" by the Romanian-American archeologist and historian Florin Curta, and if you could get him on your show it would be great. Daniel Dzino and many other (primarily archeologists) from the Balkans claim that there's no evidence of any migration, cultural impact, new settlements, or population increase during the 5th,6th, 7th century AD nor any other century before or after. Matter of fact, when the Slavic migration is happening the population in the Balkans is decreasing, not increasing. Thanks for all of your work!
Decreasing population in that era seems to be a sign of famine or isolated warfare in the region. With regards to the idea that the Slavs didn’t move in at that time I’d actually need to point out the evidence is conclusive on this matter. The Slav peoples were displaced by the Avars as they came into Europe from the Turkic regions. This even eventually split the Slavic speaking people into three distinctive regions, south, west, and east. As for were they a majority group in the areas they moved into? Almost certainly not. All evidence to the contrary in terms of what we see develop over time on the map itself. Whoever the Slavs originally were they likely brought some types of technical advancements with them to the societies they intermingled with and that’s likely the reason the locals picked up their language and melded into their culture. Look at the former Yugoslavia nations, it’s just ancient Illyria. Look at Bulgaria, it’s the remnant of the Thracians. Look at Romania, it’s the Dacians(not Slavs, just making a point). The Indo European speaking groups who were there had already settled in with non Indo European speaking peoples and converted their languages to Indo European through a creole process. When the Slavs came in they adapted an already Indo European language speaking culture to their language through a new creole. In the South Slav languages the Illyrian language is alive and well and the different dialects that were spoken there seem to directly relate to our different ethnic groups/languages today. Bulgaria you’ll see the same thing, it’s a remnant of Thracian mixed with Slavic, the Slavic language won the fight overall. That represents the Slavic people as innovators in the region, there’s typically no other reason why the majority group would adapt to the smaller groups ways 😉
Fantastic interview. Dorian "invasion" from the north is just one of many invasions from the north in Greek history starting with the Acheans until the Macedonians
Grey's work on the Dorian conquest made his name, and was in its own way quite brilliant, but unfortunately his desire to prove his case often led him to ignore contradictory evidence. It really was a poor trait of Dorian Grey.
I saw what you did there. Are you sure you aren't English? This is the sort of joke an Englishman from Oxford or Cambridge would make, much to the annoyance of the Welsh, the puzzlement of the Scots, and the mirth of the Irish, amused at what the English think funny.
@@gyorkshire257 No, not at all. Did you come to that pun from Oscar Wilde, or from cinema? Far be it for me to discourage such wit. If it is based on classical themes, it is more likely to have multiple layers of wit than something based on, say, modern television programs. I often say that I got a Ph.D in Punnery from the Boy Scouts, where every adult, but especially my Scoutmaster was an inveterate punster. We came to the conclusion that the definition of a vile pun was one you didn't think of first. Sir Charles Napier in India was famous for his one word pun, telegraphed to HQ after he had, against orders, captured the province of Sindh. "Peccavi", Latin for "I have sinned." I do not wish to curtail or otherwise inhibit your penchant for punnery. There's a pun in there, too, but I fear Richard Armour, the English Professor and Author may have beat me to the punchline.
I love your channel so much! Nick, would you consider creating more playlists by geographic area and period? It would help so much. I would suggest: Bronze Age, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greek and Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine/Eastern Rome, Medieval Europe, Ancient and Late Antiquity-Europe, Ancient Americas, Age of Discovery, Ancient East Asia, Ancient Africa (SubSarahan, most people consider Egypt, and North Africa, etc. to be part of the Mediterranean World), Ancient South Asia, Ancient Middle East, Ancient Central Asia, etc. It doesn’t have to be this detailed, of course, but some categorization would be great. I like to watch several videos at one time that have some relationship in time and space.
The Dorian invasión as It’s thought of prob didn’t happen, but Ive always had a feeling that the fall of the Mycenaens was a mix of external threat and raids and internal uprisings. For one, we know Mycenae power was extremely centralized to the palaces. Probably a very stratified society. Maybe one reason Linear B didn’t survive was that it was associated with the elite class. With elite scribes gone / dead / forced out eventually the knowledge would be lost. Some palaces i think have evidence of having been burned We know the sea peoples were a thing. The Ekwesh and Dananu/Denyen are named, and they were probably the Achaeans/Ahhiyawa. Whether formally sponsored by Mycaenian Greek polises or just opportunists from Greece that allied with the other sea peoples to attack Egypt and the Levant is unclear. We know the Trojan war was a Thing, though not literally as it’s told, because western anatolia has tons of evidence of fighting between Ahhiya, Luwian speaking states, and the Hitties. It was a shitty area to be in at the time There’s also archaeological evidence of cultures like the Terramare making pit stops in greece. Did they invade? Did they migrate? Were they passing through? Were they sea peoples too? So maybe the constant wars with Anatolia, threats from migrating people like Terramare, a campaign to go invade Egypt for whatever reason, the drain on people and resources that would cause, an already class stratified society, possible famines and diseases (a thing that was happening during the Collapse), and civil strife between the leaders returning home from foreign war and the leaders or foreigners that usurped them, lead also to the peasant class revolting and turning against the Mycenaeans until nothing was left
These are the the types of videos that make this channel invaluable. Thank you again for your work. Damn, time to get a Hittite mug to celebrate the new year. How many ancient civilizations can I celebrate with black coffee in a week? 🤨🤣
You have made my day! Thank you so much for appreciating what we strive to do. Means the world. And yes! I naturally own a Hittite one as well! It’s probably one of my favorites (but I’m biased, haha.)
The city, the culture, the race is spelled Mycaenae, not Mycenae. It is pronounced as like Myseenee with a lengthened ee sound in the middle as with the ending, not as like Mycenee as almost everyone thinks it is pronounced. Annoys me everytime its misspelt/mispronounced
Is the Dorian Invasion theory even believed enough to warrant a debunking video? This sort of seems like an answer in search of a question. Or perhaps a virtue signaling opportunity in search of a cause to push against.
When I Think Of the Term “Descendants of Heracles” I think of it in terms of the 12 Tribes, or The Israelites, this group could have most definitely had a spiritual connection with Heracles. Many cultures share the same storyline if you think about It
Interesting topic! And it highlights the problem with "overselling" theories in archeology. Like the "Saxon invasion" of Britain or the "seapeople" destroying the Bronzeage empires around the mediterranean. The evidences is simply too thin to make a strong theory, so people oversells speculation. And the more simple and dramatic this speculation is, the more accepted it gets. And it isnt even cheating, just working with very weak materials.
I disagree with you. The Anglo-Saxon Invasion and later Viking migration and raids greatly changed the Cultures of the main portions of Southern and Eastern Regions of Britain. Their were changes in the legal systems, land ownership, and social structure, and in many ways the linguistics area.
Smart man indeed! The real 300 were Persian's up against Persia. Akkadian bloodline. Migration for sure! Imo saving greece by default influencing the infamous xiphos swords, alloy spears & ways of battle.
I don't mind this guys discussion about the Dorians, but he seems too dismissive of the possibility of invasion or migration. For example, migration and invasions and replacement by outside groups and changes in linquistics and some cultural aspects has been shown throughout history, ie, the Sea Peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean period around 1500 BC, the Rise of the Visigoths and Frankish kingdoms in western Roman Empire, the Anglo-Saxon Jute and later Nordic Invasions and migrations into the British Isles. All these led to Cultural and linguistic changes.
Old idea's, new idea's, all just idea's. My idea is a small percentage of the population always try and lord it over the bigger percentage of the population and eventually the bigger percentage of the population rise up and do in the ones lording it over them.
@@freandwhickquest It is really hard to track who is who. I do wonder if these migrations had many waves and led to events such as the dorian invasions.
Dorian invasion happened. Multiple greek authors mention it. Mycnaens were pelasgians. Pelasgians were not greek. They were hellenized. Athenians ionians aeoloans were originally ranked as pelasgians. They were not hellenes. Dorians were not germans. But the invasion did happen.
Why Mycenean hegemony crumbled by the hands of Dorians?! Simply the same as with other empires. Myceneans were an elite warrior centered in Peloponnesian. Their rule was nothing else than surviving by the abuse of other inferior social and ethnic groups. Those other inferior groups lived outside of Peloponnesian. Mostly in Crete and other parts of Mycenean Greece. When the Dorians invaded Peloponnesian, the Mycenean towns were already weakened by the loss of incoming goods which brought to demographic decline. The wide grain fields of Greece weren't working for the Mycenea any longer.
Damn, these last few videos have me confused. Part of my family emigrated to the the US from Egypt and was ethnically Greek. So you're telling me that I'm not Germanic, but I am Nubian? I guess I'm crazy for thinking of myself as Mediterranean all these years. ;)
If they were Greeks from Egypt, they probably belong to the Greek communities of Egypt that were either very old (from the post-Alexander the great period), or newer, founded in the 19th century. They were not Nubians.
This guy did not really debunk the Dorian Invasion. He only offered alternative hypotheses. Also why do these Historians like him and others on the subject constantly refer to NAZIS and White Supremacy. Finally, I think now the real answers to the question will lie in future Archaeological excavations. Of course I am partial to that because I am a retired Archaeologists.
The dork invasion... this is where easterlings take the connotation of 'k' to decieve a reader or anyone that hears.... its Dorcian, not Dorian... this is where we give the term of Dork... or D'ork... just misspelled by "ancient" albino's. LOL
@kosland8385 cranai and cecrops are non hellenic words recorded by ancient greeks. And those were the earliest names of greece. Myceneans were pelasgians. Not hellenes. They took linear B when Hellenes and dorians invaded! This is why they call the walls the Cyclopean walls and the Pelasgian walls! Cyclopes is propaganda making them into monsters. AS they did with medusa queen of gorgons and the minoan Minotaur. And centaurs
Well, AIT (Arian Invasion Theory, into northern India) debunked, DMT ( Dorian Migration Theory) debunked. OAT ( Out of Africa Theory, the worst if you ask me) not yet debunked.
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I wish this channel had that Netflix button "skip intro". It's so loud and repetitive and so loooooooooooooooooooooong.
There's a jump ahead button on mobile
@@IvorMektin1701 true, but it comes back at the end. Truly irritating...
@@RebelWithoutABoss aham
@@RebelWithoutABoss literally this, jump to any point in the video with the click of a button.
easiest thing in the world to do.
mad because of 40seg?
he states that historians just came up with the idea that dorians invaded without sharing what led them to their conclusions.
Revising is not debunking.
We have no evidence for the Dorian invasion, so, yes, debunking.
I think it is wrong to interpret the Dorian regions as geographically distant from the Archean. It is more about agriculture versus pastoral land. The Dorians were already in southern Greece but they occupied the hill country to graze their sheep. The Archeans were farmers who lived in the river valleys. During the Bronze Age collapse, crops failed due to drought, but the pastoralists jus took their flocks up to higher altitudes for feed. So the Dorians survived while the Archeans starved.
According to Herodotus the dorians came there from macedon in the late bronze age
@@TheSm1thers Herodotus wrote that they came from Doris.
The Spartans weren’t always the ones we know of, with their unique legal system and way of life - they used to be a “normal” Greek polis until they willingly changed their ways.
Who were the Helots is an equally interesting question.
Agreed! So much research has been done on the Spartans that it'd be a nice change of pace to take a closer look at the Helots.
I thought Helots were primarily Messenians! Maybe also from Karyai and Oiatai?
You have raised significant questions. When did the Spartans become "The Spartans"?
Who were the Helots; Where did they come from? Did the Spartans come from another part of Greece and rule the Helots by right of conquest? In Ancient Times that was the way tribes justified their dominance of a region. Just having always been there since the ice sheets receded didn't seem to carry much weight; particularly with neighboring tribes who were looking to expand their territory by conquest.
@@johnwilson1094 yeah i mean the Spartan elite apparently (I believe an invicta video talked about this) ceremonially declared war on the helots every year, and thought of themselves as an external group that had come and conquered the natives and made them helots. Like many oral traditions, I feel like there’s some distant cultural memory of truth in there, if not necessarily literal (the elites could still been just as native but developed an idea of separation)
There’s also archaeological evidence of italic peoples like the northern Terremare culture migrating and settling or briefly residing in the Peloponesse around the Bronze Age collapse.
Then there’s the archaic and classic Greek ideas of the pelasgians being the “original peoples”, connected in some way to Arcadia, but Homer writing they they were allies of Troy
Meanwhile Mt Lykaion in Arcadia has evidence of use back to 3rd Millenium BCE with possible Minoan bull seal discovered. And it’s known the Minoans had colonies or at least had a dominate influence over mainland Greece in their heyday
I don’t think we’ll really understand what was going on until we look at more obscure groups like the helots
One of Sparta’s Kings wrote a Hebrew Priest a letter in the 2nd century BCE claiming his people were Danites. It actually makes a lot of sense when you look over their artifacts and realize they used Dan’s symbols for their people. There might be a good reason why they were so different from the other Greek Kingdoms
Ok, finally have seen some extra stuff on the issue ...
So, in resume, this video is arguing that some people think wrongly that the Micenean palaces were destroyed by some Dorian invasions because ... some unsavory people in Germany thought the Dorians were Germanic based on a flimsy interpretation of a ancient Greek myth ? Also, old idea is old, so, let's discuss new ideas? That's ... weak.
Sure, I get this are some minutes blurbs taken from online calls, but surely it would be better for everyone if that was done better. If your guest had touched even cursorily by the reasons people don't like the Dorian invasion idea so much ( instead of calling it simplistic, like if thinking about a migration is not exactly as simplistic ) and why he thinks that the Mycenean palaces were not taken down by external forces ( basically, because some Mycenean palaces seem to have been selectively destroyed, leaving the poor town areas intact ... a somewhat problematic theory on it's own, btw, given that sometimes defensive forces in sieges in ancient times just abandoned the outer walls without a fight and retreated to the citatel if they thought they could not hold them, say, like it appears to have happened in Troy VII ) instead of losing time discussing 20th century politics in a blurb concerning something 3 milenia earlier ...
Yes we can trace some of the Greek elements in Germans and vice versa even today are able to single them out from the rest
Yeah, rational discourse in our entire society has been destroyed by the religion of antifascism. Every issue is no longer discussed on its merits, but on whether or not the mythical evil nazis believed it, because then it must surely be false.
@@vogelszijnlelijk Yet everyone in the Divided Snakes of America is in the public indoctrination system told to believe that macro-evolution were scence, and Nazis adpted that Germanic racist myth. The US hides the fact that Nazis were macr-evolutionists, because it wants to portray the myth as fact when it's just racist shit I refuted in "Neanderthals are a lie, millions of years dates are lies, and there never was an ice age."
See also "Greeks, Latins, Iberians and Jews Were, and Are, NOT Blond!"
@@vogelszijnlelijk To be fair the whole German connection is pretty meaningless. The ancient greeks were indo-european. The germanic people and celtic people were also indo-european. It's all just variations of the same culture regardless. You can differentiate between Austrailian culture and Canadian culture if you want to, but if you shouldn't be astounded at how similar they are in comparrison to Bantu culture.
Nazism and facism, eugenics, exploitation and might makes right / winner take all ideologies, are foundational and broadly held beliefs in western culture.
Also spartans wore described as taller and with lighter skins.
"In his Partheneia, or “Maiden Songs,” the seventh century BC lyric poet Alcman, who was from Sparta, praised the beauty of Spartan female athlete, with “hair of gold and a silver face.” A Spartan poetess is described by Alcman as a “happy girl of golden curls.”
Bacchylides, fifth century BC lyric poet, wrote that the hair of the Spartans was blonde (Dith. xx. 2) while also noting of the golden hair of athletes at the Nemean Games (Ep. ix. 23)"
Can you show quotes? I can't find them in the links you provided.
1) "Xanthos" that is used in these writings and was translated as blond in your quotes was a wide therm that described all hair colours except midnight black.
2) These are poetic fictions and they cannot be used to establish the physical type of the Spartans.
3) We have DNA of the Ancient Spartans and they don't look different from Mycenaeans.
From a linguistic point of view, we find the Dorian dialect to be a dialect spoken in today's Greek land long before the Attic /Ionian. The latter used endings that were used in the Levant (Luwian, Hittite, Lycian, in Miletus etc) and Aegean islands. Dorians were named after the place Dorida in Greece. They were locals in North of Greece. The speakers of this dialect were also living in Crete. This is likely the same dialect spoken in old Macedonia. Similar to pelasgian if not the same. The Achaeans /Mycenaeans, who i think had close relation to Hittites, had a language, Linear B, a bit changed and more Greek comparing to the Doric which was more 'Slavic-like' lets say at the time. After the fall of Troy, the Trojans and others from the levant joined forces (sea peoples) against the Hittites, Minoans and of course Mycenaeans. They attacked Egypt, Cyprus and basically all trade centres. Trojans and Lycians and those from Luka/loukia were in the same group. They took revenge, they ended the Hittite Empire and dominated in the regions. This shift of power from the levant to Attic, whole of Greece and Italy and the new writing system, creates new empires towards the West. Of course the Dorians will lift in Power after the dark ages but later they become part of the Hellenic power.
So it wasn’t people from the north migrating into Greece and adopting their traditions. It was just Greeks being Greeks in Greece with a few hundred years in between the Heroic & Historic eras?
Congratulations Justin mills i think you are also from those lucky people who had a Greek back ground in ancient era
Yes.
not debunked...
Yes, debunked
@@andybeans5790 if it is then prove me wrong?
This is getting for me with every episode more and more my favorite channel!
Really intersting topic!
I really appreciate this comment of support! This has made my day, thank you!
Thanks for this extremely interesting and intriguing interview! Really, sometimes good questions are better than fine answers!
Who were Dorians and where did they come from?
Dorians were the last greek tribe they came from North Epirus today central and southern Albania also some Words of Dorian originin : Ionian Greek : Δήμος in Dorian Greek: Δάμος Aslo a Greek female name Ionian Greek : Φερενίκη Dorian Greek Βερενίκη
Also the ancient Macedonians spoke that dialect
This dialect were spoken in Peloponnese except central. Also Epirus today Greece and southern Albania , Macedonia not the Slavic country but the part of Greece , Island Crete etc
@@thanos5665 thanks for your updates
Dorians are Illyrian tribe from the north that for some reason last 200 years it’s never mentioned. From Epirus up to Germanic tribes lived Illyrians. The most important fact is the Doric language.
Well, if they didn't come from the north, I wasted my money on that book that theorized the Iliad and Odyssey referred to places in the Baltic Sea.
Thank you Nick for this upload , I just watched your interview with Rebecca Futo Kennedy in regards to the Dorian invasion and now this pops up! 😊
I would invite you to check out Slavic migration theory. I myself have been exploring the issue and I cannot with good conscience say that it is a valid theory, at least in the light of the evidence. I would recommend reading "The making of the Slavs" by the Romanian-American archeologist and historian Florin Curta, and if you could get him on your show it would be great. Daniel Dzino and many other (primarily archeologists) from the Balkans claim that there's no evidence of any migration, cultural impact, new settlements, or population increase during the 5th,6th, 7th century AD nor any other century before or after. Matter of fact, when the Slavic migration is happening the population in the Balkans is decreasing, not increasing.
Thanks for all of your work!
Decreasing population in that era seems to be a sign of famine or isolated warfare in the region. With regards to the idea that the Slavs didn’t move in at that time I’d actually need to point out the evidence is conclusive on this matter. The Slav peoples were displaced by the Avars as they came into Europe from the Turkic regions. This even eventually split the Slavic speaking people into three distinctive regions, south, west, and east.
As for were they a majority group in the areas they moved into? Almost certainly not. All evidence to the contrary in terms of what we see develop over time on the map itself. Whoever the Slavs originally were they likely brought some types of technical advancements with them to the societies they intermingled with and that’s likely the reason the locals picked up their language and melded into their culture.
Look at the former Yugoslavia nations, it’s just ancient Illyria. Look at Bulgaria, it’s the remnant of the Thracians. Look at Romania, it’s the Dacians(not Slavs, just making a point). The Indo European speaking groups who were there had already settled in with non Indo European speaking peoples and converted their languages to Indo European through a creole process. When the Slavs came in they adapted an already Indo European language speaking culture to their language through a new creole. In the South Slav languages the Illyrian language is alive and well and the different dialects that were spoken there seem to directly relate to our different ethnic groups/languages today. Bulgaria you’ll see the same thing, it’s a remnant of Thracian mixed with Slavic, the Slavic language won the fight overall. That represents the Slavic people as innovators in the region, there’s typically no other reason why the majority group would adapt to the smaller groups ways 😉
Nick my man, thank you.
Your content is one of the best out there.
The positive comments in this thread like yours have truly made my afternoon awesome! Thanks for your time and support!
That's cool.. dude can just wave his hand and then something is officially "debunked".. neato!
Fantastic interview. Dorian "invasion" from the north is just one of many invasions from the north in Greek history starting with the Acheans until the Macedonians
Grey's work on the Dorian conquest made his name, and was in its own way quite brilliant, but unfortunately his desire to prove his case often led him to ignore contradictory evidence. It really was a poor trait of Dorian Grey.
I saw what you did there.
Are you sure you aren't English? This is the sort of joke an Englishman from Oxford or Cambridge would make, much to the annoyance of the Welsh, the puzzlement of the Scots, and the mirth of the Irish, amused at what the English think funny.
@@johnwilson1094 "I don't like your joke, and I don't like a particular ethnic group."
I consider myself told.
@@gyorkshire257 No, not at all. Did you come to that pun from Oscar Wilde, or from cinema? Far be it for me to discourage such wit. If it is based on classical themes, it is more likely to have multiple layers of wit than something based on, say, modern television programs. I often say that I got a Ph.D in Punnery from the Boy Scouts, where every adult, but especially my Scoutmaster was an inveterate punster. We came to the conclusion that the definition of a vile pun was one you didn't think of first. Sir Charles Napier in India was famous for his one word pun, telegraphed to HQ after he had, against orders, captured the province of Sindh. "Peccavi", Latin for "I have sinned."
I do not wish to curtail or otherwise inhibit your penchant for punnery. There's a pun in there, too, but I fear Richard Armour, the English Professor and Author may have beat me to the punchline.
I love your channel so much! Nick, would you consider creating more playlists by geographic area and period? It would help so much. I would suggest: Bronze Age, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greek and Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine/Eastern Rome, Medieval Europe, Ancient and Late Antiquity-Europe, Ancient Americas, Age of Discovery, Ancient East Asia, Ancient Africa (SubSarahan, most people consider Egypt, and North Africa, etc. to be part of the Mediterranean World), Ancient South Asia, Ancient Middle East, Ancient Central Asia, etc. It doesn’t have to be this detailed, of course, but some categorization would be great. I like to watch several videos at one time that have some relationship in time and space.
The Dorian invasión as It’s thought of prob didn’t happen, but Ive always had a feeling that the fall of the Mycenaens was a mix of external threat and raids and internal uprisings.
For one, we know Mycenae power was extremely centralized to the palaces. Probably a very stratified society. Maybe one reason Linear B didn’t survive was that it was associated with the elite class. With elite scribes gone / dead / forced out eventually the knowledge would be lost. Some palaces i think have evidence of having been burned
We know the sea peoples were a thing. The Ekwesh and Dananu/Denyen are named, and they were probably the Achaeans/Ahhiyawa. Whether formally sponsored by Mycaenian Greek polises or just opportunists from Greece that allied with the other sea peoples to attack Egypt and the Levant is unclear.
We know the Trojan war was a Thing, though not literally as it’s told, because western anatolia has tons of evidence of fighting between Ahhiya, Luwian speaking states, and the Hitties. It was a shitty area to be in at the time
There’s also archaeological evidence of cultures like the Terramare making pit stops in greece. Did they invade? Did they migrate? Were they passing through? Were they sea peoples too?
So maybe the constant wars with Anatolia, threats from migrating people like Terramare, a campaign to go invade Egypt for whatever reason, the drain on people and resources that would cause, an already class stratified society, possible famines and diseases (a thing that was happening during the Collapse), and civil strife between the leaders returning home from foreign war and the leaders or foreigners that usurped them, lead also to the peasant class revolting and turning against the Mycenaeans until nothing was left
Thank you again Nick. This channel is a real enjoyment!
Your comment of support means the world! Thank you!
These are the the types of videos that make this channel invaluable. Thank you again for your work. Damn, time to get a Hittite mug to celebrate the new year. How many ancient civilizations can I celebrate with black coffee in a week? 🤨🤣
You have made my day! Thank you so much for appreciating what we strive to do. Means the world. And yes! I naturally own a Hittite one as well! It’s probably one of my favorites (but I’m biased, haha.)
The city, the culture, the race is spelled Mycaenae, not Mycenae. It is pronounced as like Myseenee with a lengthened ee sound in the middle as with the ending, not as like Mycenee as almost everyone thinks it is pronounced. Annoys me everytime its misspelt/mispronounced
It's all Aeolian propaganda.
What really happened?
Is the Dorian Invasion theory even believed enough to warrant a debunking video? This sort of seems like an answer in search of a question. Or perhaps a virtue signaling opportunity in search of a cause to push against.
It's in the documentary style video "Ancient Greece in 18 minutes" which has 2.8m views, so I'd say yes
Everyone knows there were no invasions during the bronze age.. simple silly people
@@rabbitonthemoon They were, but between Early and Middle Bronze Age.
This guy is a real killjoy
What do you mean by that?
A controversial subject? On this channel?! Inconceivable! 😆
When I Think Of the Term “Descendants of Heracles” I think of it in terms of the 12 Tribes, or The Israelites, this group could have most definitely had a spiritual connection with Heracles. Many cultures share the same storyline if you think about It
Isrealites and their modern descendents are the polar oposite of Hercules, in every single way.
Do you see parallels to the Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory?
There's genetic evidence for those migrations and they are evident in Greece, they did happen
@twitchypaper1391 theres also evidence for armenians being the ancestors of the pie languages
Dr. Rees raised a lot of good questions.
As always it’s a pleasure to see you here!
DEBOONKED
Interesting topic! And it highlights the problem with "overselling" theories in archeology. Like the "Saxon invasion" of Britain or the "seapeople" destroying the Bronzeage empires around the mediterranean. The evidences is simply too thin to make a strong theory, so people oversells speculation. And the more simple and dramatic this speculation is, the more accepted it gets. And it isnt even cheating, just working with very weak materials.
I disagree with you. The Anglo-Saxon Invasion and later Viking migration and raids greatly changed the Cultures of the main portions of Southern and Eastern Regions of Britain. Their were changes in the legal systems, land ownership, and social structure, and in many ways the linguistics area.
Smart man indeed! The real 300 were Persian's up against Persia. Akkadian bloodline. Migration for sure! Imo saving greece by default influencing the infamous xiphos swords, alloy spears & ways of battle.
I don't mind this guys discussion about the Dorians, but he seems too dismissive of the possibility of invasion or migration. For example, migration and invasions and replacement by outside groups and changes in linquistics and some cultural aspects has been shown throughout history, ie, the Sea Peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean period around 1500 BC, the Rise of the Visigoths and Frankish kingdoms in western Roman Empire, the Anglo-Saxon Jute and later Nordic Invasions and migrations into the British Isles. All these led to Cultural and linguistic changes.
blablabla.
Old idea's, new idea's, all just idea's. My idea is a small percentage of the population always try and lord it over the bigger percentage of the population and eventually the bigger percentage of the population rise up and do in the ones lording it over them.
Could the dorians be the Indo-Europeans?
The Indo-Europeans were Hellenes/Greeks/Dorians
@@maniacgr2617 all of them?
@@sagebias2251 mychenaeans were already indo europeans. Every aegean civilization after the minoans were indo european.
@@freandwhickquest It is really hard to track who is who. I do wonder if these migrations had many waves and led to events such as the dorian invasions.
@@freandwhickquest from were comes this Indo-European because the gypsies speak Latin not greek
Dorian invasion happened. Multiple greek authors mention it. Mycnaens were pelasgians. Pelasgians were not greek. They were hellenized. Athenians ionians aeoloans were originally ranked as pelasgians. They were not hellenes.
Dorians were not germans. But the invasion did happen.
ah we talked about this with doctor Kennedy last year
We did! Thanks for remembering!
Why Mycenean hegemony crumbled by the hands of Dorians?! Simply the same as with other empires. Myceneans were an elite warrior centered in Peloponnesian. Their rule was nothing else than surviving by the abuse of other inferior social and ethnic groups. Those other inferior groups lived outside of Peloponnesian. Mostly in Crete and other parts of Mycenean Greece.
When the Dorians invaded Peloponnesian, the Mycenean towns were already weakened by the loss of incoming goods which brought to demographic decline. The wide grain fields of Greece weren't working for the Mycenea any longer.
I thrive on controversey
Damn, these last few videos have me confused. Part of my family emigrated to the the US from Egypt and was ethnically Greek. So you're telling me that I'm not Germanic, but I am Nubian? I guess I'm crazy for thinking of myself as Mediterranean all these years. ;)
If they were Greeks from Egypt, they probably belong to the Greek communities of Egypt that were either very old (from the post-Alexander the great period), or newer, founded in the 19th century. They were not Nubians.
@@moussapolytropos I was joking...
This guy did not really debunk the Dorian Invasion. He only offered alternative hypotheses. Also why do these Historians like him and others on the subject constantly refer to NAZIS and White Supremacy. Finally, I think now the real answers to the question will lie in future Archaeological excavations. Of course I am partial to that because I am a retired Archaeologists.
I'm woke enough to know the dorians didn't invade lol
Any evidence ??
@@theconnecteduniverse1video629 no u
@Philippe James cycladic cultures matter
as well as capitals on the columns!!!
You're gonna need more than 9 minutes, mate.
Hmm, spicy or salty?
You decide!
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 I found it quite warming, but some of your other viewers seem to disagree lol
nice anti-narrative, dramatised .. but why should it be true?
We need fresh eyes
Dorian meaning “hand workers “ people that did the hand work builders revolted against high class society what it was known in those times in Greece
The dork invasion... this is where easterlings take the connotation of 'k' to decieve a reader or anyone that hears.... its Dorcian, not Dorian... this is where we give the term of Dork... or D'ork... just misspelled by "ancient" albino's. LOL
The Dorian are the Modern Albanian's,. DORIAN ARE THE YLLYRIANS OR THE PELLAZGOI. 🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
Nice try, Maniots are Hellenic people, not Yllyrian
😂😂😂
@kosland8385 cranai and cecrops are non hellenic words recorded by ancient greeks. And those were the earliest names of greece.
Myceneans were pelasgians. Not hellenes. They took linear B when Hellenes and dorians invaded! This is why they call the walls the Cyclopean walls and the Pelasgian walls! Cyclopes is propaganda making them into monsters. AS they did with medusa queen of gorgons and the minoan Minotaur. And centaurs
Love your work,,,there not Greek,,thay came from Macedonian land,not Germany or Greek,,
Dorians=early Slavs
The real Dorians were African !! ✊🏿🌍
🤣🤣🤣
If they "came from the North", they can't be Africans! People need to stop all this nonsense.
The real moon is made out of cheese. Just like your brain
we wuz spartanz n sheeit
This better be a joke...
Who are you, Owen? Tell us your biography first. Then I can listen to your lies.
Well, AIT (Arian Invasion Theory, into northern India) debunked, DMT ( Dorian Migration Theory) debunked. OAT ( Out of Africa Theory, the worst if you ask me) not yet debunked.
The Africans enter from the west europe
They was agricultural who moved in india