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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Dimitri and Claude Support Conversation from the secret chapter in Fire Emblem Warriors Three Hopes
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Is this golden wildfire?
yup!
Hey Faz! I have noticed something that so far few people have notice, but I don't know how to trigger. In the Zahras chapter, it seems like it is possible to change who appears as a retainer for the lord of the route. For example, in the majority of AG playthroughs Dedue is the one that appears for Dimitri. However, I have seen at least one playthrough on YT (the one from the channel Unpunk) that has Felix appear instead of Dedue. He even has dialogue for the momment. Funnily enough Dedue does appear later in said playthrough, but in Byleth place. So, yeah, it would be cool to see what triggers it, and whether this is also applicable to the other lords in their houses (say, Lorenz instead of Hilda)
As a side note, there is special AG only dialogue in that same Zahras chapter in Dimitri and Edelgard support and in the three way conversation between the lords after being teleported. There Dimitri and Claude explain what has happened in the last 6 months to an Edelgard that seems to be herself in Zahras and not a mindless puppet.
Anyways bro! Hope to hear from you! Your channel is great
@@narutoo6215 woah wait really? thats very interesting. Thanks for mentioning! I'll definitely look into it
@@FazFaz Can this conversation be unlocked in Azure Gleam as well?
I can't help but feel much of the Golden Wildfire route was a bit awkward, like they made thin excuses to make Claude fight pointless battles for the sake of being a Warriors game and there needed to be combat. Good number of times I wondered why he wouldn't just write a letter explaining he doesn't wanna fight the Kingdom OR the church, he just wants to demilitarize the faith and loosen its grip on the country so it can move forward and be more free.
Seiros would never allow it, especially not without Byleth.
Foldlan nobles hunt and kill peasants for sport. Including kids.
You can't solve all things with letters and dialogue, you trully expect that the church will read the letter and be like: ''Oh, makes sense, let's change this then''.
@@pauloh.alchaar Like the monks of Mt. Hiei, the Central Church knows how to play the "harmless clergyman" act when they're losing.
The funny thing is that everything Claude claims about the church is shown to be basically wrong as Hopes gose out of its why to show how little power they actually had.
The background lore also shows they have zero issues with the nations of Fodlan interacting with outsiders, so he has no reason to even fight them
i feel so sad for Dimitri and Claude they seems to get along so well but their different vision of a better Foldan keep them appart
Interesting, for two people with vastly different personalities and ideals, Dimitri and Claude seem to get along really well. There’s something of a mutual respect between the two. I wonder why Dimitri and Claude get along much better with each other than either of them get along with Edelgard?
Dimitri and Edelgard were also compatible in the heart-to-heart talk they had, edelgard even dared to talk about her past when she doesn't do that with anyone, considering that Dimitri is her enemy, that was very shocking
Only claude and edelgard do not seem to be compatible and that is because they are both Machiavellian
They all would get along except for the fact that they are all intentionally hiding things from each other which stops them from vibing. Claude and Edelgard want almost the same thing actually but the whole act they put on around each other stops them from even trying to be friends
Probably difference in belief and personality.
With Edelgard and Claude has similar goal, belief and care for people around them and both character sorta analysis people they meet but They have very different personality from each other. The best way I can describe it is that Edelgard is more mature which contrast Claude more youthful nature.
Despite the clash in personality, within both GW and SB they get along and work together. Most notably within a non-Byleth SB playthrough where Claude betrays the Empire. If you pick the right stratagem. You get an additionally scene showing Edelgard reaction to Claude betrayal before the battle. You just get a sense of Anger, disappointment and sadness from her reaction. You get the feeling that Edelgard truly thought she fully understood Claude and was willing to work with him despite the risk since she felt she could trust him.
Edelgard and Dimitri on the other hand, clash in belief and ideologies since they have similar personalities. They care deeply for the people around and for people in general.
Where they differ is in the more political side of thing's. Dimitri wants to keep the current system around and improve on it and enact small changes over since he feel's that if you take too drastic of changes. People won't accept to ( Dimitri in general has a negative view on people. ) and that people lives are at risk. He doesn't understand the problem within Fodlen as much as both Claude and Edelgard do, especially out side of the Kingdom. But that doesn't matter to him since he wants to protect the people here and now and that is why he opposes Edelgard actions as well.
Edelgard on the other hand wants to end the current system of Fodlen with it importance of Crest, nobility, reform the Church and completely get rid of the Kingdom. Since they are the people who would fight tooth and nail for the old system due to the circumstance of how the Kingdom was reached. Edelgard see the all the current problem of Fodlen and knows that the system is the direct cause of it.and know that people are currently suffering and will continue to suffer if drastic action isn't taken. Edelgard wants to make Fodlen a better place for both the people currently living there and for the future as well and believes in the potential of people. ( SB shows the flaws behind Dimitri thought process and goes into detail on why the Kingdom needs to go as well. )
They clash because their belief directly opposes each other and neither of them are willing to accept the other's. ( The same is said within the support in this video. Claude said that if Dimitri wasn't king. They would be friend's, since Claude also oppose Dimitri belief's to some degree. )
How I interpretable is that if Fodlen wasn't a shithole. Then I can imagine the Claude, Edelgard and Dimitri being friend with each each other.
@@lukestarford7608 Dimitri actually know The problem of The System, he wants to reform Fodlan like Edelgard now but he wants a gradually reform, he Even mentions is agreed with Edelgard Ultimate goal.
You can see that in Dimitri and Yuri support, they need to edúcate The commoners to start The reform.
@@lukestarford7608 dimitri is right when he says people wont accept too drastic of change. the empire will follow edelgard, but despite the kingdom's loyalty to the throne they are also loyal to the church and will NOT listen to his every word. dimitri's father was literally assassinated due to political reform and dimitri's own succession was wildly debated. he is the lord who must tread most carefully to not piss his kingdom off. and yes, he prioritizes pleasing and protecting the faerghus people most, as he believes from the moment he was born his life was not his, but theirs. the church has been nothing but helpful to the kingdom since their inception so he is in no political position to reject them unless he wants a revolt (he straight up says his people would brand him a heathen if he hadn't) and he doesn't want to cause civil war among the kingdom because, once again, he wants to protect as many faerghan lives as possible.
Seeing Claude and Dimitri interact makes me wish we could have tried to join up with them instead in Golden Wildfire
you get to join him in AG so...
Dimitri is literally disagreeing with Claudes primary goal in fighting this war, while Edelgard and Dimitri have much more in common, while would Claude want to join Dimitri if he has the choice to ally himself to a non-mindcontrolled Edelgard?
@@shizachan8421Because Dimitri and the Kingdom have no desire to attack and take over the Alliance/Federation unlike Edelgard?
Like Claude even admits that killing Rhea won't stop Edelgard from her war of conquest, so he is just getting rid of 2 allies to.help.out his future enemy.
@@4wheal And Claude can easily negotiate with that, thats why even in his home route, Claude is prefering Edelgard over Claude because she's the lesser of two evils, compared to Dimitri being Rheas enforcer and fighting to keep the continent under Church control.
I mean, even the ending of Azure Gleam is the least happy or positive one, considering the language used in the ending and Faerghus overall Lore it being clear that the Kingdom will commit genocide on and colonize Adrestia and that Claude is dissatisfied with his pact with Dimitri, no matter if you have recruited Byleth or not.
@@shizachan8421 No, he can't as Edelgard is stubborn and unwilling to change, and even outright says she wants full control over Fodlan and will destroy anyone that gets in her way.
She does not care about debts and will not stop until she is either dead or have won so Claude would either needs to give up the Federation independence whitch he dosent want to do or kill her whitch just means more people will die.
Also, what Azure Gleam is by far the most hopeful one as outsode of mabey a few remaining members of the Agarthans peace is possible we know that Dimitri is the Lord that respect other cultures the most as he outright works to restore Duscur wants peace with Sreng he shows the most compassion for those he fights and will do right by them.
Like SB is the route that makes clear Faerghus will be wiped out and Edelgard will guy the population all while blaming them and not taking responsibility and GW makes it clear the war isn't going to end anytime and Claude actions have been pointless.
I love how Dimitri calmly points out the flaws in Claude's thinking.
I think this is where 3H and 3 Hopes' writing really shines. When they discuss their different viewpoints and perspectives.
Yet Claude (and Edelgard) is right that Rhea’s leadership over the Church of Seiros is what’s preventing Fodlan as a whole in progressing forward due to their outdated tenets.
@@shuri-ken1803 He's right, but his method is faulty; it's not enough to just say "get rid of the church" when you don't have a plan for the utter chaos / power vacuum that will occur once that organization is gone.
@Меѳодїи OMG, Rhea not doing anything wrong? Are you hearing yourself right within all that? The examples you posted are mostly in her benefit like recruiting people to serve her despite being not of Fodlan but that doesn’t mean that her tenets of urging the people of Fodlan not to open the borders is still not in place. What other lies will you defend that Rhea has built? And lmao, the printing press was literally forbidden to be made according to the Shadow Library in the main game’s DLC, better fact check that one first before saying that Rhea “accepted” it. The rest of what you pointed out especially Manuela’s anatomy dummy, where did that come from? That example to make the Church look good was so random that it doesn’t have any bearing to what is being discussed.
Also, said social system is what is causing the ills of what is infecting Fodlan as a whole. Reforms and changes are much needed than a slow decay and stagnation. I just find it hilarious how hard you are defending a religion that’s built up on lies and BS when it is exactly the main cause of the societal ills of Fodlan.
@Меѳодїи the Agarthans contributed to it but Rhea had a choice to either tell the truth about Nemesis and the Elites or make up a wall of lies that contributed to the abuses and decadence of the nobility in the present time. Rhea obviously chose the latter in a poor attempt to shield the people from the truth. The hilarious thing here is that you doubt the Shadow Library’s legitimacy when the very institution you try to defend is made in a foundation of lies, such a double standard right?
Books can be reproduced the usual way of copying and writing them by hand. What evidence can you suggest that the printing press is being used when you have that method I mentioned to reproduce books.
The problem with Fodlan is that, the lies of the Church has been deeply ingrained in their society and minds. You cannot claim Edelgard’s issue with it is merely secular because Rhea had effectively brainwashed the people of Fodlan with what she fed them over the years to believe that Crests are gifts of the Goddess, which we all know is false considering Crests came from one having Nabatean blood and that the Goddess we know is basically a disembodied spirit who can neither hear or answer the “faithful’s” woes inside one of Rhea’s experiments. Determining rulers by blood and with the Crest they have is exactly what the Church made up, like its a divine right. Who do you think taught and mandated the people that their leaders should be people hailing from a bloodline descended from the Elites? The Church of Seiros.
Try and conjure up another wall of texts that doesn’t really add up to the defense of the Church in order to make yourself look right. It just makes you look just as bad as Dimitri is in shilling for Rhea’s false religion. It’s conservative, xenophobic (as Lorenz pointed out the isolationism in VW) and based on lies and bullshit that Rhea had propagated and effectively established as truth over history.
Makes sense why Dimitri personally agrees with Claude. Considering what happened with Miklan, his uncle, Ingrid in a sense, etc.
He does and he doesn't. Dimitri agrees with Claude and Edelgard that reform is necessary. However what he doesn't support is their means to make that happen(conquering Fodlan, crushing the central church etc). As pointed out in this support, Dimitri knows the harm Claude's plan will inflict upon the Kingdom's people and that's why Dimitri will stand against Claude's plan.
It doesn't make any sense, the Church and Dimitri work together to aid the people of Duscar with Rhea even preaching that all people regardless of faith or race should be helped. Dimitri also makes countless reforms in the Kingdom and assigns people like Miklan to positions of power to change the system in Faergus, and yet the Church does nothing to stop these changes, on the contrary they support and even praise him for it. The only reason I can think of why he would say that to Claude is to get on his good side, because there is no way he seriously believes it.
@@daz1543 It makes sense because in both Three Houses and Three Hopes, Claude insistently points out that the Central Church's leaders (Rhea, Seteth, etc) make all the final decisions. Rhea is keeping the borders shut meaning that relationships with those outside Fodlan are strained and hostile at most and Almyra is very hostile if not dangerous this time around. In SB, Dimitri talks about how sudden change and reforms aren't that good even though gradual reforms are needed. Felix also says that they tried to do reforms in the Kingdom with LIMITED success. Dimitri can't oppose Rhea and Seteth because it jeopardizes both his title as King and the safety of his people, as such that he mentions to Claude here. The difference is that Dimitri tries to do as much as possible that also gains the approval of the Central Church. Edelgard wants the removal of the Crest System which directly clashes against the Central Church's system of power. Claude wants to open up Fodlan's borders but Rhea and her followers don't want that. Dimitri understand both Edelgard and Claude's objectives but doesn't go along and help them out of duty to the Kingdom and his alliance to the Central Church.
@@bitrel07 This is objectively untrue though, Hopes literally *shows us* that the Church has no problems with reforms or dealing with outsiders. On the contrary, rhe Church supports and even personally helps Dimitri enact his reforms and improve relations with Duscar.
@@daz1543 Yet the Central Church doesn't want outside contact with other nations which is what Claude wants to see. This means being able to trade and improve the economy which can't happen for as long as the Central Church's higher leaders won't allow. If Almyra had better relations with Fodlan, there wouldn't be so much hostility however that requires Fodlan to have open borders and that isn't happening with stubborn Central Church officials and leaders. Edelgard wants the removal of the Crest System so Nobles can't be appointed as ruling figures all the time. The Central Church founded the Crest System and opposing the system opposes the Central Church. Dimitri isn't disposing of the system hence he gets no backlash from the Central Church. He's at most allowing those without crests to become leaders instead of stripping authority from those with crests.
Claude in this conversation is revealing he doesn't give a shit about the innocent lives that will be destroyed in the wake of his destruction of the church, and that the consequences don't bother him because they are Kingdom lives, not Alliance ones. Meanwhile Dimitri would want a solution that would benefit everyone, Alliance and Kingdom alike.
Claude's selfishness kind of irks me; he feels like he'd be the kind of guy that would blow up the church and then while the people down below are screaming for help with 3rd degreee burns, he'd look at them and say "see what a big favor I did for you?" You can't act like you made a better world when you salted the earth afterwards. If you don't have something to replace it with, it'll all collapse in on itself.
If he had truly paid attention to the fact that Dimitri actually agrees with a lot of what he was saying, he would've been smarter to agree to work together to make a solution that would actually help EVERYONE, not just his own interests. A stable (and more importantly Alliance-friendly) Kingdom actually benefits him in the long run, but his methods are too short-sighted to achieve that.
There's also a separate topic/problem of if it would even BE possible to get rid of the church at all? In the Three Houses Blue Lion ending, Byleth being the archbishop allows her to make the changes Claude's alluding to (removing crest importance, creating an equal field for all) without destroying their religion. As we know from real world experience, you can't just remove a religion the way Claude is suggesting. It permeates the kingdom so much that you would either have to genocide the entire population, or deal with mass groups of people that would likely become zealots/extremists after you destroy their main figureheads of faith.
Benevolence? Sounds just as flimsy and idealistic as chivalry.
Foldlan nobles have hunting 'games' in which they killed Peasants, including fucking kids!
Byleth in the Abyss speaks to a woman whom survived one of these hunting parties!!!
Claude's priority is saving as many lives as possible what are you on about
@@moon4236By invading a innocent nation simple because he dosent like there religion?
Or saving the life of the woman who is responsible for all this death?
Like if Claude wanted to save as many lives as possible the best bet would be to take down Edelgard as quickly as possible
Ironically, Dimitri feels like the only sane one between Edelgard and Claude. He knows the results of taking down the church and the casualties it would bring.
Ironic because he is literally the most unhinged.
I think it's because he knows he's so unhinged and messed up that he's scared to loosen his views. You know, the boar mode and all.
But at the same time, there are still endless suffering and casualties in the current state of Fodlan, even before the war. And as Claude pointed out, if you're afraid of the consequences so badly, nothing ever changes. Dimitri's ideal is slow and steady change, but even that form of efforts are subject to flaws and criticism as they are also easily at the risk of backtracking or just halted if anything goes wrong, or just abandoned. With how corrupt nobles have been shown, it's proven as such.
@Methodius There were rebellions, infighting, and genocides happening before the game even started.
Probably due to being educated to become the King, he ends up being more intelligent as a leader than them
@@0axis771 Which were clearly issues with TWISTED rather than the church itself. Dimitri wants change, but blatantly ignoring and rushing everything would like he said "have you stumble and fall" which in a way happened with both GW and SB one twisted is clearly an issue and the other still having internal and external unrest
@@gamerlover20o2 Not really. Even Dimitri's ideas are ultimately just him forcing the issue after brutally getting lucky and killing any opposition. Dimitri blatantly ignored the western lords for his own beliefs, and thus the Western lords were pushed to rebel once again.
The fact is, Dimitri is just as unwilling to compromise as Edelgard, and because of that, even he causes chaos and problems with his beliefs in slow and steady reforms as well.
You can blame TWSITD, sure. But the rot still exists in the corrupt nobility that want to horde the power for themselves. Slow and steady changes might be nice, but that relies on the case on HOPING that things will get better later, or nothing gets done, or things just get undone the moment something goes wrong and they backtrack.
god i SO wish we could have had more supports between these three finally listening to them be forced to talk to each other even in a parallel universe. there's just as much left unsaid as there is put out there. it's frustrating but it is how 3h keeps its game at foremost a fire emblem game lol.
I ship dimiclaude so this gives me happy vibes
Fellow dimiclaude enjoyers thanks…. (Forgets I’m claude
for some reason both edelgard and claude have better support with dimitri than each other, claude trying to convince dimitri to join him against the church and edelgard agreeing with him and thanking him for the help, even being open to talk about her past.
Is dimitri the center of this game now?
He always was
He always was
Eh, he's more of a moderate which I suppose does make him the center of the game. By far he's the most down to earth and less likely to do something outrageous or controversial. The man's just trying to save his country and you can't hold that against him, especially when he's got so much shit to deal with.
Well, Azure Gleam were the first team to get a video for 3 Hopes, so most likely
always has been
I ship it
Dimitri has shattered Claude arguments' in an instant. He should also have mentioned to him how the Church and Rhea has no problems with foreigners (Cyril, shamir and the aid to Duscur are examples of this). He would also have to remind him how belligerent and dangerous those foreign nations like Sreng are (fuck, even Almyria where he comes from is dangerous).
It's a shame the destruction they've done with Claude in this game.
The church actually really sucks. Claude is doing this the wrong way, but Garreg Mach is not representative of how the church and the nobility they created treats the average person
@@RaphDeGrate That is what the hater of the Church of Seiros says and you still never have any proof of why it is a horrible entity.
@@RaphDeGrate The church isn't really evil in any way or a terrible. Just like Claude said, his problem isn't with the church but the people at the top, most likely meaning Rhea. Whilst sympathetic she abused her power and rewrote history to create a narrative where people would place undying faith in her mother as a goddess. The game at least portrayed the church as a helpful entity that has no quarrels with foreigners and even helps them, has no problems with others who don't practise their faith and has helped in many conflicts throughout Fodlan's history. Rhea is the main issue. Her abuse of power, her execution of people with no trial and her experiments which even Seteh didn't know about.
@@RaphDeGrate if you think the church sucks, you could argue the kingdom, empire, or alliance sucks just as much. the church has accepted foreigners (cyril, shamir, duscur), provided shelter to those in need (Mercedes, who i must add ran away from the EMPIRE's crest problems to a church in faerghus). as well, they do not force their religion on people (Catherine is not religious), and well - see any seteth support to understand they're actually not bad. the only time the church of seiros is shown to do something "wrong" or violent is their response to the western rebellion in the original game... which by the way is because they tried to assassinate rhea. am i supposed to be mad at them for retaliating an assassination attempt?!
rhea (bar CF-seiros), seteth, and the people at the top of the church are pretty level headed and also wise over centuries, and preach acceptance while the empire's nobles are full of corruption from twsitd to plain ol greedy humans. also, the church actively encourage nobles and commoners to work together without boundary and IIRC also preach against discrimination due to crests. the problems with nobility and crests are entirely HUMAN made.
@@rbggsc6719 You're conveniently Ignoring the fact that Claude never said anything that even remotely equates to "Church bad" like did you not pay attention to when he explicitly stated that he has nothing against the Chuch/the faith moreso the higher-ups to jab at his character which is no different from when he was ready to use Byleth for his own selfish reasons. Also, Rhea is pretty fucking scummy in her own rights. She had many "test subjects" to "reincarnate" Sothis, hands out executions without proper trial/investigation and proceeds to keep secrets about potential threats that can easily wipe out Fodland?
A true golden path would actually help emphasize each of the lords unique traits and actually solve more issues then they each think individually
Edelgard is imperialist until her reboot in three hopes, she wants the unification of Fodlan under the empire so her and Dimitri will never see eye to eye.
@@londinsilva5993 Maybe. Unless He was forced too.
Say, If edelgard showed Dimitri benefits that will greatly improve the kingdom in a way that he can get involved and actively work with her toward the betterment of the people.
Besides it not like Dimitri can't point out flaws in her plans and also aim to unify fodlan under a unified banner between the three kingdoms.
A unified kingdom under the imperial, Kingdom and Allinace leadership could be possible if they both sat down to actually work together toward aiding eachothers issues and benefitting the people.
the key to getting Dimitri approval is ensuring the live of the people and proving that the kingdoms current aid of the church stagnating ditective will only harm the kingdoms people later on...
And getting claude attention shouldn't be to difficult if three hopes and verdant wind are anything to go by.
No matter how devoted the kingdoms loyalty is to the church there only soo much someone loyal is able to handle before they break their pact if this said loyalty puts at risk more life's then saving them.
@@ianjomarcaraballorodriguez6224 u seem to misunderstand, what edelgard manifesto states is that the kingdom and alliance were made as a ploy by rhea, which is propaganda. This is pretext for a reason to invade since the kingdom and the alliance are supposed to be Adrestia territory.
Dimitri would never leave as king of the kingdom his country to Adrestria rule so he has no choice but to defend his country.
What u suggest is impossible to happen since Edelgard wants unification under Adrestia itself.
Unfortunate Dimitri or El has to die unless u rewrite El objectives, Dimitri dies defending his homeland or El dies with hope the one who defeats her takes Adrestia under its wings and unifies fodlan for her, hence why she is so do or die in all routes
@@londinsilva5993 and this is why politics are dumb.
Also isn't the whole point of her war is soo that need for rulers is abolished? That should include the empire itself.
It wouldn't make sense for her to unify it again under adrestia rule if the whole point is to make fodlan into a land without the need of rulers or a system that rely on crests.
Claude step down from powe as soon as he finishes his route in verdant wind..
Isn't the whole point of her doing all that soo that she to can step down and live a normal life?
@@ianjomarcaraballorodriguez6224 she wants to abolish the importance that nobles put on crests and unify fodlan, she steps down in her own route, although to someone of her choice.
I like El and her motive but I loath her execution, I believe a war was necessary but it could have been scaled down to a civil war in Adrestia and the kingdom. Just focus on the corrupt nobles and allies to TWSITD. There is no real reason to involve rhea since rhea is not against reforms per se. U can even see this in the 2 year time skip in three hopes
he actually has genuinely conversation with him my heart's was melt! i was so sad to know kingdom has been corner by whole empire and federation and glad to this extra scene for letting Claude to shake of Dimitri mind..
Honestly they both do give a point they have however the Church of Serios had focused too heavily on the actions Rhea had done. She isn't a bad person but with the power she has and the lies she has told she sets her own religion that she had carved for others to live by. This isn't necessarily evil considering how some lies become lessons however Golden Wildfire really shows how Rhea grants confidence through "the goddess' protection" when Rhea uses forgotten white magic. The pain inflicted on the believers comes from their inability to adapt to a New and improved way of life which will always exist if you try changing anything due to the close mindedness that humanity has. Like are you going to convince Cyril that the Church of Serios is going down the wrong path. This honestly seems like an argument against the religion itself but where did the religion come from?
Cyril isn't actually religious and dosent belive in the goddess he is loyal to Rhea because she saved him from a life of Slavery under Hilda and Hoist family.
His life in Alymra was also terrible and the church and Rhea were the frist people since his parents to actually take care of him.
So is it any wonder why in GW he refuses to abandon Rhea when the forces that made his life hell are coming for her?
Funny enough the issues Dimitri points out would be easily dismissed if instead of fighting Edelgard and claude they unite between the three kingdom's and each work toward stability by working with the others issues.
its funny, Dimitri proposes a talk to edelgard at the end of this chapter.
In Golden Wildfire ending Dimitri and Gilbert go to negotiate with the Empire about the new Church
@@endoprimario7235 nice
The problem is that they all disagree on how to work towards stability.
@@PrayingSeraph sadly true
The Kingdom's people would never want to join Edelgard and Claude because their goal is to depose their current belief system (the Church) that the people of Faerghus have been worshipping for centuries and is the basis of their society. The people would want their king to defend the Church since they value it, which is exactly what Dimitri does to prevent further civil discord/war. Like Dimitri said, it would be too radical a change.
The main issue is that the Kingdom's ideals are being forced upon by other nations: let them abolish the Church or die and get conquered.
Someone has to ask *it* ...
who is top?
Do you mean who is at the top of the church?
Dimitri could top both Claude and Edelgard in this Universe.
@@danko6712 and i thought I was kinky but that is too much, arent you ashmed?
@@bingomiingo8428 edelgard is his sister
dimitri
2:25 the people you wish to depose are just as human as you are.
Back in three houses he conveniently NEVER looks up to see Rhea/Seiros turn into a giant ass Dragon during that cutscene where he would have learned "oh this is exactly what Edelgard wrote in her manifesto a few days ago."
Claude DID look up and went "oh CRAP this is exactly what Edelgard wrote in her manifesto a few days ago."
The nabateans are very human like. They have hopes, dreams, love and have as many emotions as humans do. Killing a nabatean is akin to killing a human.
well they are dragons but they are also still you know. people
This is why I can't ever be satisfied with a route where Rhea dies. Knowing her story, I just cannot accept such a conclusion for the Nabateans.
@@wl4810 But i still think Dimitri needs to learn that the continent has been shadow governed by immortals and that she faked her own death over and over with new names
@@duyanhpham9227 As a leader, he has every rights and needs to know yes. Buuuuut it's also absolutely understandable that they wouldn't reveal this information considering the average power hungry human would **100000%** start a dragon hunt to get the power of their corpses. The reason for their trust issue is kinda solid.
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They really drained all of Claude's IQ in this game by making him just accept Edelgard's propaganda with no evidence, even worse because the same game goes out if its way to show you that Rhea and the church are a purely benevolent faction and disproves all the accusations against them. Its like they're trying to make Claude look bad.
That's a problem that comes when you're trying to make grey characters that aren't entirely good or evil.
But honestly the church of Seiros is a problem since it has caused stagnation for a thousand years.
Edelgard and Claude are right that they need to dismantle the current power structure of the church to bring a positive change to Fodlan.
The church might have the best intentions in mind (most of the time anyway) but they'll do everything in their power to keep things the same way which would make change impossible.
@@Greideren Source? Because we know the opposite is true, Dimitri is enacting countless reforms in the Kingdom and is dismantling the current social system and not only is the Church allowing it, they are actively supporting him.
@@daz1543 Edelgard at least has the excuse that she has been brainwashed since childhood, here Claude is an idiot for no reason.
@@daz1543 The hidden library from Cinder Shadows in 3 Houses.
Rhea stopped the development in medicine which could save lives and improve quality of life because it would diminish faith in the goddess.
Rhea did the experiments to bring back Sothis, something that Seteth didn't approve of.
Just as Claude said here the church prohibits interaction with the outside world, probably because they don't believe in Sothis and they don't want the people of Fodlan to be influenced by that.
Mostly those and other things are Rhea's fault but it's the power she holds thanks to the church which allows it. They do some good stuff yeah (grey characters after all) but also some very bad stuff.
In the real world or in fiction, religion has no place in government affairs. The separation of church and government benefits everyone, even the church to some degree.
@@Greideren The library isn't reliable, most of the things stated in it that were supposedly banned can clearly be seen in-game, so either the ban happened in the past and has since been rescinded or it was outright false. Again, what we *do know* is that *currently* the opposite is true, Dimitri says that when Rhea arrived she shared a lot of cultivation information with the Kingdom to help their crops.
Do claude amd Dimitri team up in yhe golden wildfire route???
No only in azure gleam
Is this support from a Golden Deer save? It sounds like they are not allies, but they are in the Blue Lions route, or are they the same regardless
This support is the same rin the Blue Lions and Golden Deer route (You don't get a conversation between the two house leaders you don't side with in each route) I've found. I played the Blue Lions route first and thought that some of the lines felt out of place. When playing the Golden Deer route this honestly made more sense as to why they said some of the things they said.
@@sashiny4470 Dimitri and Claude happens in SB as well, in fact, this same dialogue is used. You'll get Edelgard and Dimitri/Claude dialogue in other alternate routes during this chapter as well.
@@bitrel07 I definitely did not get dialogue between Claude and Edelgard during Blue Lions I might have forgotten when it came to golden seer route though 🤔
@@sashiny4470 Was the dialogue different or was there simply no conversation?
Edit: AG might be a very unique exception due to the fact that Edelgard's memories were wiped 'clean' once Thales started to control her.
@@bitrel07 between Edelgard and Claude? Nonexistent. Claude and Dimitri was the same.
It could be that! I am thinking that Claude and Edelgard really had no relationship in the AG route too, while Claude seems to think at least consistently wants to kind of work with Dimitri in some way (either by simply not wanting to kill him or working with him) so that could be it
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Dimitri: "The people you are referring too are human too"
Me: "Now let me tell you why that's BUUUUUULLLLSHIIIIT~"
Well to be fair, only like 3 people in the church are dragons, there's still a hell of a lot of other (and high-ranking) humans that make up the organization lol
@@eji yeah but the main one's in charge are dragons who also carry the same risk of going insane like Rhea
@@ianjomarcaraballorodriguez6224 Rhea goes insane because of her emotions not because she's a dragon, there's no mention of the dragon mental degradation in the Fodlan games.
@@HameedDaranijoh yeah well that not edelgard or the people of fodlans fault.
They came into fodlan and besically demanded the land was now there's soo in all seriousness the agarthans were fully justified to fight and kill the colonizing space lizards.
And just because she has a temper problem doesn't exuse how out right insane rhea has gotten before edelgard decided to go to war... I mean who leave a very defective artifact under the church, allows the Crest system to not only screw over commoners but also nobles alike just for clout and peacekeeping.
And executes any "heretical" person who don't show their undying loyalty blindly to a god THAT SHOULD BE DEAD but isn't and is now a sassy lost child inside or an emotionally stunted Homonculi human hybrid
@@ianjomarcaraballorodriguez6224 TWISTD is not justified at all, they weren't fighting them because they were colonizers, they were fighting them because they had an ego, they caused the equivalent of Nuclear World Destruction to Fodlan. The Nabateans aren't colonizers in the first place, they didn't violently take over Fodlan, what they did would be more akin to immigration. I agree with you that Rhea isn't the best person, but you're also only looking at her from the perspective of Edelgard's route.
So does ANYONE notice that Claude basically spells out a bunch of things the Church has done wrong and Dimitri never once refutes them?
- Steals your freedom and gives you an endless list of duties and obligations if you have a Crest.
- Forces people into unwanted marriages and positions of power.
- Officially forbids any official contact with outside regions.
Once again, I repeat. Dimitri does not refute ANY of these allegations Claude brought up, and Dimitri would very well know if what he said is true or not, given how close Faerghus is to the Central Church.
@Methodius Problem is that there's a flipside to that. By taking their freedom and making them obligated to obey what the Church tells them, Rhea effectively put them under her control. Those with Crests are generally the nobility and royals, meaning that if Rhea effectively controls them, she controls all of Fodlan by extension.
@@bluesky0474 Something to clarify on.
- Holst is more the exception that proves the rule. Holst might be Crestless, but he's a one man army that's driven off Almyrans for so long that you honestly can't go wrong making him the heir.
- Simon RAN. His father did NOT let him go freely. Simon was forced to be the heir and made into a position he never wanted. An NPC in AG made it clear that he wanted to be a simple minstrel. SB has him actually be an NPC to talk to and he makes it clear that he's no warrior like his father and uncle.
- Keep in mind that Ingrid is expected to be the next heir. But even without that, she's also expected to marry for her Crest. That's been a major aspect of Ingrid back in 3H.
Lambert might very well have been the first in history to try and reach out. And this might very well be why the western lords saw this as "radical" and such. We have no privy details about just what Lambert was doing. No one bothered to explain.
Ultimately, there is various contradicting information that it is possible that ALL are true, just like in the real world. We have many laws and regulations that are in all essence contradicting.
@@bluesky0474 I don't think it's an absolute, but more of how Claude is explaining how things are currently as a result of the Church's doctrine in general. You can find exceptions here and there, but the current mindset isn't helping anyone in the long run unless something big starts happening.
If this mindset is not changed fast, then people will keep making the same mistakes and being closed off.
Dimitri wants slow and steady reforms, but one has to understand that Claude is seeing from a farther perspective than Dimitri is. Fodlan might change eventually, but is the rest of the world going to wait for them? Dagda and Almyra might eventually destroy Fodlan in its entirety if Fodlan doesn't change itself. Almyra already shows that people like Shahid exist and have a claim to the throne. Had Shahid become the King, he could have ordered a full-scale invasion on Fodlan.
@@bluesky0474 There are definitely missed opportunities. It'd help if Rhea was, you know, more involved and actually expressed more indication of how she meddles in society and is being an obstacle for Fodlan's people.
@@bluesky0474 The game seems to claim she is, and Rhea certainly seems to also claim that to be the case as well. I mean, her entire speech at the last GW chapter has her admit that she sees herself as some savior that has to be the one to guide humans because otherwise they will fall apart.
And yeah. Rhea not even being remotely involved in AG is silly, all cause she's in another town so not directly involved.
So Dimitri doesn’t want to against Rhea just because it will threaten his divine right to rule? What kind of backwards logic is that? Revolutions and aftermaths are always gonna be messy, it’s called a transition. Dimitri would rather choose a path that can prolong the suffering of Fodlan with a corrupt system than change it for the better? Claude is right, he’s trying to be this paladin or hero of everyone. I like Dimitri in this alt setting but holy shit, he’s naive as fuck if he thinks his way and the Church of Seiros remaining is the best way for Fodlan moving forward when the latter is the one responsible for obstructing any form of meaningful changes with its restrictive tenets and lying to the people for almost a thousand years.
No, Dimitri doesn’t want to against Rhea because the kingdom is in debt with the church and it is a debt that he will not be able to repair but his people come first. That is why in Scarlet Blaze Dimitri is agree with Edelgard Ultimate goal.
You say you like Dimitri in his alt setting but you do realize in Azure Moon that Dimitri also still aligns with the Church, right? Byleth literally becomes archbishop at the end.
@@PrayingSeraph The status quo still remains and the Church of Seiros' influence is still intact. Verdant Wind's ending to that was still better as Claude and Byleth manages to uncover the truth there.
@@shuri-ken1803 This is not true, the status quo doesn't remain with Byleth in the picture. In Azure Moon, Byleth's end card with Dimitri says that they literally "reform the government and church from the inside out." Basically as long as Rhea steps down / Byleth takes her place the needed reform can still happen without destroying the church.
He's not worried about the right to rule because he actually believes it's divine or anything like that; he's worried that it will unseat him and prevent him from keeping the Kingdom unified and focused towards his goals of improving the nation. As they show throughout Azure Gleam, he's already trying to make changes as he goes towards reforming areas and bringing about peaceful solutions, but he needs to keep his control/position to be able to maintain that momentum.
The other problem here is that it's not just a system, like a government: it's a RELIGION too. That makes things infinitely more difficult to change. To put it in perspective, think of real world equivalents to religion. You can't just remove/dismantle a religion that's been ingrained in people for hundreds of years; you'll instead get holy wars, zealotry, and likely a far longer and more devastating outcome than Claude is painting things in his mind. If it was just their government, then yeah, messy transition... but uprooting an active religion? You may have to kill the entire affected populace to get the kind of "peace" you ultimately want, and I don't know if Claude and the Alliance will have the manpower to deal with the fallout for however many decades it might take to sort it all out.
Dimitri is trying to list flaws, but hasn't he considered that even the current state of things, all these problems and people dying are STILL happening? I guess Claude sums it up best. Dimitri is trying to save everyone. Or perhaps more accurately, he's trying to please everyone. The problem is when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.
He's trying his best, but Dimitri has already been proven wrong when the simple fact is, he has to get dirty and be forced to kill others in order to create change. Edelgard wants the painful process to be done fast, Dimitri thinks it has to be slow. But no matter what, there will be people that will suffer, and people that will die.
It comes down to what makes Dimitri feel more satisfied.
@Methodius Dimitri is actively housing the one that said nation is at war with. He knew what that would mean, and therefore, the invasion is something he brought about himself.
They literally had a discussion where they could have not taken in the Church. There were pros and cons being listed on what would happen if either or were chosen based on what litlte information they had.
Dimitri had a choice, and he chose war.
@@0axis771 I mean, like dimitri said, the entire reason faerghus is recognized as legitimate is because of the church. If edelgard and claude are trying to kill the church, then that's the same as trying to kill faerghus, from dimitri's perspective.
He's concerned about everyone, but he clearly has priorities that he considers acceptable, and protecting faerghus is at the top of the list. His choice was "Do I let my own people die" or "Do I kill the other nations' people?" And he chose the latter. That doesn't mean he can't be sad or upset that those people had to die in order to protect his homeland.
If you feel that he should have capitulated to the alliance and not housed Rhea, then you're essentially saying his duty as king of Faerghus is to all of fodlan and not just faerghus (IE I will allow faerghus and its people to die in order to unshackle fodlan from the grips of the church). Which sounds nice, but that's just not how countries work, nor are they expected to. A king's duty is to his own people first and foremost imo, and that's exactly how dimitri is approaching the problem.
@@Nintendomasterone And as a result faces consequences. Both choices stands to have consequences. Hence why in GW, he recognizes that defending Rhea was a mistake. By SB’s ending, Dimitri stands to now lose his entire Kingdom now because he chose to defend the Church to the very end. And it still might happen in GW, unless Claude succeeds in negotiating peace.
@@0axis771No, he did not realize defending the Church was a mistake in GW. He merely regretfully has to abandon the Church to Claudes forces. He isn't happy with the decision, but has no choice.
You know who had a choice? Edelgard and Claude. Neither had to invade the Holy Kingdom, or Garreg Mach for that matter. They are the ones responsible for the war.
@@Recon868 No, Dimitri had a choice to not defend the Church. Had a whole talk of weighing his options.
Dimitri choosing to defend the Church forced Edelgard and Claude to invade.
Funny how many people hate edelgard when claude wanted the sane thing and just got super lucky in 3 houses that rhea vanished and the church fell under his number 1 “bestie” byleth.
I really don't like the arguments Dimitri used to defend the church, they're some of the worst reasons he came up with. Especially the first one where he's basically defending the divine right to rule
I think what he meant was that the church offers a clear leader, preventing a lot of people who would try and depose the king. It prevents a lot of jockeying for power, creating a more stable country. He definitely could've worded it better though, even I did a double take when I heard it.
I think you misunderstood the first point a little bit. He's saying taking down the church will essentially dismantle the currently established rulership in the kingdom. Some may not even rally behind a king who allowed the "Holy" to be taken out of the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus. He doesn't disagree with Claude, in that he doesn't like the practices established by the church either.
Think about it like this, if, hypothetically great leaders of the world decide to ban Hunduism in Iran, India, and Japan- the number of people revolting/ suffering in Iran, and Japan would be insignificant compared to those in India. The Prime Minister of India would have to be opposed to this ban for the sake of the people, even if he was an atheist and personally agreed with ban.
If he steps down as the PM, the people will be in a disarray with no one to in a position of power to push their claims. If he agrees with the ban, the people will rally against him and further civil discourse will ensue. So essentially the best he could do is slowly phase out certain practices- until the all that remains of it, is the core of the religion, which is be kind to circle of life you belong to.
p.s. Hinduism is the most ancient living religion, and it's fascinating to read about.
Its more complicated than that, if he rejects the "right to rule" from the church it'd give Edelgard "justification" to conquer the Kingdom as she can claim that its still Imperial territory. Not that it really matters tbh, we know that Edelgard is going to try and conquer all of Fodlan regardless of Dimitri's actions or if the Church is still around.
@@ishtilodi
As per your analogy, Dimitri isn't even an atheist, as we see him praying in a Three Houses support as well as he says "Thank the Goddess" in Three Hopes during a mission. He doesn't want the Central Church to go away, he just wants realistic reform, one that is gradual rather than radical.
@@PrayingSeraph No no I understand that. I meant to say "even if he was an atheist". Like EVEN IF Dimitri didn't believe in the goddess, there isn't much he could do other than gradually phase out certain practices.
Wait. So the church also forbids contact from the outside.
So this, on top of banning the printing press and medical science, the church definitely needs to go.
This is actualy not true, (mostly). The church does not prohibit contact with foreigners, they recommend avoiding contact with Almyra, since almyra has done nothing but attack Fodlan for 200 years. Regarding the other neighboring nations, relations with Brigid improve as long as Petra survives. The church helps Dimitri with the reconstruction of Duscur, Dagda prefers not to get involved with Fodlan since they lost the war against the empire, and Sreng is not a country, but rather a region in the north of the kingdom inhabited by various nomadic clans. The church even allows members of the other nations to be part of its knights, such as Cyril and Shamir without ever imposing the Seiros religion on them. I don't know why Claude generalizes like this...
@Меѳодїи Conclusion: you shill for Rhea and the lying Church of Seiros
@Меѳодїи Fedora-chan?
@@JonathanRios-fd7xx Probably because Claude doesn't know any better in Three Hopes.
In Houses he actually acknowledges that the church doesn't forbid contact with outsiders. He names Shamir, Dedue and Cyril as examples but a better example is his A support with Lorenz. Lorenz says that outside relations specifically go against the church's doctrine. Claude actually says that it doesn't. Seeing as Claude spends the majority of his academy arc studying up on the church, something he couldn't do in Hopes, I'm inclined to believe him in Houses.
tl,dr
Everyone misunderstands the church's teachings and seems to think that the church forbids relations outside Fodlan and only Dimitri and Houses Claude know that's not really true
@Methodius Well, no. Rhea definitely did SOME things wrong. She DID in fact ban all that technology, but only until she thought humanity would be ready for it. Regardless, it's not really enough to warrant a war of conquest to take her down.
"The people you seek to depose are human just as you are" uh, yeah, Dimitri, about that...
Also, just gonna point out how this support can take place on GW, where Claude declares himself King without the church's support, thus rendering Dimitri's first point completely irrelevant. Just sayin.
Then you haven't read Faerghus' history have you?
It's kind in the country's name the HOLY Kingdom of Faerghus.
After Loog's rebellion it was after mediation from none other than Rhea herself who ended the conflict. With the Church itself making House Bladdiyd the kings of Faerghus.
It was through the Church itself that Loog and all his descendants have gained legitimacy.
It's why the Tragedy of Duscur was ochestrated by TWSITD as Faerghus had become more allied with the Central Church unlike Adrestia which had its own Southern Church had started to come at odds with the Central one.
Also Claude only becomes a king so he doesn't have the roundtable debates atopping him from making decisions. Nothing special at all.