Being someone who read alot about the whitechapel murders and then getting out of it, this channel has been like a drug dealer just supplying me with pure jack the ripper content. So now I'm fully back into the world of jack the ripper.
Most interesting discussion. Enjoyed that. I personally believe, however, that Kosminski is the great red herring of the JTR case. The police didn't have a clue who the killer was. I also agree with Richard in that Diemschutz likely disturbed the murder of Stride. In that case, it can't have been broad shouldered man as it was circa 15 minutes later. Broad shouldered man vs Stride wasn't really a blitz attack. Schwartz didnt see her being killed. He didn't see her being strangled or her throat cut etc. He simply saw her being thrown or dragged to the ground out on the street. No more than that. What possibly happened is that broad shouldered man, perhaps tipsy or drunk, was stopped by Stride hawking herself and he was affronted, reacted in an aggressive manner (not an uncommon occurrence), pushed Stride over then went on his way. Stride got up, composed herself and continued hawking for business near the pubs and clubs, staying close by Dutfields Yard as it was a decent spot to conduct that business. She continued for about 15 minutes until the killer came along and was interrupted by Diemschutz. The killer likely came out of one of the pubs in the area or possibly after visiting family close by 😉. I doubt that broad shouldered man, if he was put off by Schwartz, would have spent time dragging Stride's body into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard. He would have beaten a hasty retreat immediately. Cheers.
I love how fair and level headed Steven is he's objective which can't be said about those on the other side of the argument. Please have Steven on more often.
A good observation. However isn't it more of a discussion than an argument, for the events mentioned here took place so long ago and with such incomplete resources available that it's now virtually impossible to be certain of anything to any appreciable degree?
Absolutely spot 👌🏻 on. His argument against Charles Letchmere Cross,was rational & believable,because it was thought out and without bias. The joker who argued in his favour,was totally bias for his suspect (Cross),despite little or no evidence.
@normandavidtidiman9918 Little or no evidence? Being seen by someone else lingering alone and acting suspiciously right next to the body of one of the victims at or near the time of death and with nobody else in sight or sound is the ONLY actual evidence against ANY suspect. Add to that the known fact that Lechmere then walked right past 29 Hanbury Street just before 4.00 am that morning... a similar time to when the medical examiner said Annie Chapman was killed there a week later. We can throw in Martha Tabram possibly being killed as late as 3.30 am on a work day for Lechmere..... just a few dozen yards off Wentworth Street, the most direct route to Pickfords for Lechmere and a time close to when Lechmere would have been off and heading to work. Stride was killed just around the corner from where Lechmere's mother and daughter lived and where Lechmere used to live, and on a night when Lechmere didn't need to be getting up for work a few hours later. It's quite feasible, even likely, Lechmere was visiting his family and possibly his old pubs after a working week. Lechmere thus has direct connections to FOUR murder spots. Little to no evidence? Far more than ANY other suspect in fact.
@@rob5944 im not sure what you think the difference is but, id say its a discussion where you produce arguments using what evidence is available. Doing that properly includes stating clearly what you think is certain and what is a judgement based on some amount of personal opinion.
Good stuff ....Steve saying Polish word meaning ' mind your own business ' sounds the same as Lipsky is interesting ...never heard that ...we learn everyday on this case ....one little thing can take it down another road ....
JtR didn't concern what was going on around him at all?! He locked the door of 13 Miller's Court after ensuring the shock and horror that awaited people who would find Mary Kelly's body! The man was diabolically cunning and sinister. I don't think he would murder someone (Stride) when he was aware that at least two people were nearby and then go on to commit another horrendous murder within a walking distance. Yes, he was extremely egotistical and self-absorbed with what he was doing but also cunning enough to make Mary Kelly allow him enter her room.
Another awesome video gents!!! Just my thoughts!!! I am not convinced that the altercation had anything to do with her murder. Or that any of the people discussed even saw it. I personally think it was an isolated incident and most likely the Ripper was watching in the shadows. Remember, this is someone who has managed to evade capture so far and while I don't think he was a genius or anything, I do think he had some decent level of intelligence ( he was still insane of course ) on top of being incredibly lucky. Someone like this would always steer clear of attention or anything that may get him noticed. He may have thought this was also an opportunity, attack when everyone has left and then the person who assaulted her earlier would get the blame. I think we also need to remember just how dark these streets really were. If you go out for a walk at night you most likely think your street is pretty well lit, but you can still clearly see dark corners and areas. Now reduce the lighting by say 50% or maybe even more and then get a feel of how dark London really was at night. Yes there was lighting but certainly no where near anything adequate to provide any sort of credible witness accounts in my view.
I tend to agree. I said in another post that Schwartz might just have seen a drunk man accosted by Stride hawking herself, he got affronted and shoved her to the ground then walked on his way. No more than that was seen. Stride then got up, composed herself and continued to linger by the pubs and clubs hawking herself and JTR came along 15 minutes or so later. As you say, he might have already been watching on from somewhere and took the opportunity to be 'nice' to Stride initially. Its feasible it went down like that.
@@lyndoncmp5751 entirely possible. Or perhaps they were part of a gang. These groups of men were apparently commonplace in larger cities across the country at the time, involved in pick pocketing, extortion, racketeering and general violence. Unfortunately we now see a rise of their modern counterparts engaged in prostitution, human trafficking drugs etc.
I dont think he shouted "Lipski" i think he was shouting "Lizzie" Liz Stride would have been called Lizzie often i'd imagine. and the foreign guy not knowing the local dialogue very well, got mixed up and then possibly paranoid if he thought that a man had started following him. When he was probably just walking away on the same direction
The "foreign guy" lived on that street for years. He would have known all about the Lipski case from the previous year and may well have known him to see, as Lipski lived on an adjacent street. The infamous surname Lipski would be recognised by all and sundry in that area...
@@redtobertshateshandlesif that was the case they would of left the message on the wall !? For all London to see ,there would of been racist murders etc if they wanted to implicate the east end jews
Fantastic discussion. I feel the International Working Men’s Educational Club and the views of its members is integral to this case, and shouldn't be over looked.
Yes there feels like some significance to the murder being committed on their doorstep in that location. Either to harass or implicate them or by a member or members themselves who then gave themselves an alibi. I heard on one of these episodes a story that there was a feud between members of the club and other othodox Jews. So another possible angle is a tit for tat murder series where one of their rivals cut a woman’s throat (Strides) on their home territory to then have a club member or members commit a retaliatory murder and drop the cut off apron piece outside the home of their rivals, seemingly to implicate them in the Ripper murders. The Stride murder was less brutal as it was used to show intent without the need for extreme violence whilst the retaliatory attack was used to indicate an escalation as a threat of what might happen if the rivals didn’t back off.
There's nothing better on a Sunday evening than a JTR discussion. Who could have thought that murder and mayhem in a gothic Victorian setting could be so entertaining.
@@stevenblomer7738hi steve,interesting thoughts regarding schwarts,did he or didnt he appear at the inquest? I dont understand why the police would object to schwartz appearing at the inquest,if they believed schwartz may have seen the murderer. Schwartz' account had already been made public in the star on the 1oct. I would have thought that schwartzs' witnesses testimony would be a great reason to call him to appear at the inquest. Thank u enjoyed ur conversation with richard as always.
My family are from that part on London. My Gradmother (1897-1985) told me that the Police (the Home Office) were worried about anti-semiticm at the time. That's the reason.
Been looking forward to a discussion on this topic. I sometimes feel that researchers and experts are afraid to delve into many of the Jewish issues for fear of treading into subjects or accusations that could cause them to be accused of anti-semitism. Due to the heavy Jewish population of the East End during that period, you can't avoid this problem. This is especially true in the current environment of "wokeness" and cancel culture. I continue to be intrigued and interested in Jacob Levy but it hasn't really been aggressively researched from what I can tell.
Great discussion, Richard and Steve. I too believe Elizabeth Stride is a Ripper victim, whatever the complete number may be. The certain evidence, as Steve sums up at the end, fits the suggestion that the simple throat cutting- without further mutilation- results from being interrupted and running off for lack of time or fear of being seen. I think that's the best conclusion from the evidence. It will, however, remain a topic of debate. Well done, gentlemen, and my thanks.
If you look at other victims the ripper was in high risks situations that he could had been caught. Almost all the victims were in places where people were except the last one which waa inside. Jack the Ripper did not stop i think he stopped for awhile than continued.
You 2 are my favorite ripper experts. Could listen to you guys talk all day. Question how many siblings does Aaron Kosminski have? I found some sources saying 2 sisters and 1 brother while others say 2 sisters and 2 brothers.
He could simply have witnessed Stride hawking for business and being forcibly rejected by a disgruntled tipsy man. I don't doubt this was a fairly common occurrence. However, Stride could have then composed herself and carried on lingering nearby, and the killer came along 15 minutes later. Then was disturbed by Diemschutz.
The witness in the Police Convalescent Home might be the mysterious City Policeman who saw the Ripper at Mitre Square as mentioned by Macnaghten: "Nobody ever saw the Whitechapel Murderer unless possibly it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square..." - possible James Harvey.
These supposed JTR witnesses must have had excellent eyesight and memory. They seem to perfectly recal faces despite it being night time and they only briefly saw the suspect/s. They were brilliant. 🤔
@@lyndoncmp5751 plus the police pressure, other people getting them to describe the man repeatedly, and social anxiety since they'd be with high ranking police officers, who were "toffs"!
Richard, considering that Steve mentioned suspect Jacob Levy in the video, I wonder if you will ever invite a Ripperologist to speak about that suspect.
The reason why Stride is suspected by some of us as not being one of the victims is the circumstances with how she was murdered and the lack of the similar signature, not necessarily the belief that it was a domestic violence homicide. The reason why “JTR” chose to kill the victims he did and when he did was because they chose spots that were secluded and that gave him an opportunity to do what he wished. Stride was attacked in a busy spot, and the attack was initiated in full view of multiple people. It just doesn’t make sense. He may have been a somewhat disorganized killer, but he was at least smart enough to reserve his violence until he felt like he had enough privacy to kill. He wasn’t some cunning bastard and probably said weird things about women around others, but he wouldn’t be attacking women in front of other people. It probably wasn’t a domestic violence homicide, but there’s nothing that suggests Stride was killed by a murderer that has sexual sadistic tendencies. Not at all.
I agree with this. That is why I am not convinced anyone discussed was even involved in her murder. For me it is the following: 1- If anyone discussed killed her than it is a gang or domestic killing. 2- If nobody discussed killed her than it was the Ripper murder.
All Schwartz apparantely saw was Stride being pushed/dragged over onto the pavement. That's it. No blitz attack, no strangling, no stabbing. What Schwartz saw might have been nothing more than a drunk man walking down the street, getting accosted by Stride hawking herself, and he simply reacted in an aggressive manner then went on his way. It wasn't uncommon to shove or push away annoying sex workers in those days. Also I can't see anyone, whether JTR or some other killer, needing to beat it from the crime scene after Schwartz saw him and then take the effort to drag Stride's body from the pavement into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard. I don't think the man Schwartz allegedly saw was her killer.
New Sub here😊I trained at The London Hospital Whitechapel in the 70s..always interested in the history of the area.😢 Its happening today news stations and newspapers sensationalism of the news..lies,getting news wrong that turns people against people 😢😢
Ms. Stride was murdered by her pimp while 'jack' was over hunting in Mitre Square. 'jack' returns to his lodgings at Batty street right in the middle of the 'stride' chaos and he panics vacating his room and leaving behind that now-lost 'evidence' and that upset landlady.
If the attack took place where her body was, the murderer killed her just outside a meeting of fifty or sixty Jewish radicals singing socialist and anarchist songs.
Makes sense. The family could hardly say can you please lock kozminski up because he's jack the ripper. They would have to have a reason for him to be sectioned.
Ok what I don’t get is the size of that alleyway that’s always arrowed as being the entrance to the back exit of the yard. In the photos it doesn’t look large enough to fit a horse and cart down. Am I missing something?
Thank you for the insightful discussion. A number of strong points were made. But still, it's all just speculation in my opinion. I feel we will never really know what happened. I guess that's why the legend persists. By any chance, did Charles Cross have broad shoulders? Another fantastic video.
You mean Lechmere. His name wasn't Cross 😉. He certainly frequented that particular neighborhood. His mother/daughter lived there and he used to live there. Might have visited them, or one of his drinking haunts (if he was a pub goer). He didn't have to work the next day.
im an athiest and probably will be my whole live. but if by some chance i might be wrong the only thing i will ask be4 certainly be send to hell for not believing is who the F Jack the ripper was.
I think there were two people involved in the killings and both were jewish. At no. 40 right next to the yard where Stride was murdered was the International Working Men’s Educational Club.
Except calling what Schwartz said he saw a "blitz attack". It really wasn't. She was merely pushed or dragged to the ground. No more than that. Schwartz didnt see her being suddenly strangled or having her throat cut.
Except that with poor lighting it’s hard to know what he saw; possibly the pushing to the ground was a slash to the throat. Stride then staggered severely and mortally injured down the alley to the yard where she fell and died whilst the broad shouldered man ran off as he knew he’d already been seen by one or possibly two witnesses (if the pipe smoking man wasn’t his accomplice). For all he knew, Stride would survive the knife wound and Schwartz was going to fetch a constable so he beat a hasty retreat and to find another victim where he’d have more time and not be disturbed.
The shwartz story was in the star on oct 1st,he came forward on the afternoon of 30 sept the report says. Polly nichols abdominal injuries were made with a knife as we know, alice mackenzies wounds to abdomen were made by fingernails. Thank you really good video.
@@lyndoncmp5751here that report ,aug 15 1888,manchester weekly news. 'Dr philips' there was some marks about the external which he did not mention on the last occasion.there were five in number,but with the exception of one on the left side of the abdomen.the largest one was the lowest.the small one was the exceptional one mentioned which was typical of a finger nail mark.they were colored and were caused by the fingernails and thumb nail of a hand ' .'they were caused by a broad hand'. So there u have it,fingernails. No werewolf in london im afraid.
Hi, I'm the poster of this discussion on the FB page. Thank you for the indepth explanation of the situation. Must say I still consider Kosminski to be the best candidate. Korosh
@kevinkenny6975 Indeed. Only dubious police opinions, and we know the police were pretty clueless about serial killers and the type of people they thought most likely......such as a foreign oddball, needing to be put in an asylum. JTR was very unlikely to have been such a person.
We know that Bond presented the profile/report on the four murders beginning with Bucks Row, and then examined Mary Kelly, but I can't seem to find whether or not he was asked to, or did, look into Emma Smith and Martha Tabram, and ruled them out? Richard, Steve, anyone, able to point me to some details?
@@JackTheRipperTours Cheers Richard. I can well understand that with regard to Emma Smith, due to the circumstances and time gap. But I have to say I am a bit surprised by the idea of not including Martha Tabram.
Another excellent video Richard,I’ve been sporadically fascinated with the Whitechapel murders since I was a teenager(long ago🙂)..wandered around the area a few times from the 80’s onwards and have seen area change over time,as for the stride murder id imagine if it was the killer seen by Schwartz he maybe quickly despatched her then fled realising even for him the risk in mutilating the poor woman was too great after realising there were 2 witnesses and drawing attention to himself shouting in the street,I’d think him gone reasonable amount of time before that horse and cart arrived,didn’t a woman living in house next to the alley hear footsteps hurrying away which she thought was a beat policeman?sometime before strides body was discovered.
If Schwartz really saw her killer then why, if the killer felt he needed to depart ASAP, did he take the time to drag her body from the pavement into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard? Surely he wouldn't have bothered to do that and would have just beaten a hasty retreat immediately? I think the man Schwartz saw could have just been a drunken passer by, accosted by Stride hawking herself, and he reacted angrily pushing her over then went on his way and Stride got up, composed herself and carried on lingering nearby for business until JTR came along fifteen minutes later. I don't think it was uncommon back then for men to react angrily, pushing one of the many ladies of the night away in an aggressive manner. That's all Schwartz might have seen.
Why would the killer dispatch her when he knew he had two eye witnesses to identify him at a later date? Either one could have ran off to find a policeman...so why risk capture when you can walk away and kill a different victim elsewhere? Seems more likely that this incident didn't involve the killer, unless he was nearby and saw this and took his opportunity.
Israel Schwartz went into Leman Street police station on the same day he witnessed the attack , just after dinner time on Sunday 30th ..within two days! As you say I agrree also Schwartz probably saw, the murderer at work .. All you have to do is look at the doctors reports post mortem to find the corroberating evidence of what he states happened
If you believe Liz was a Ripper victim, then you have to give credemce to the whole ' witness' situation at Berner Street. I believe that her killer was definitely seen that night..
Not necessarily. Broad shouldered man might just have been a drunk who was accosted by Stride hawking herself, he got affronted and I his drunken state he pushed her roughly away and she fell on the pavement. He could have then gone on his way and then Stride could have then just got up, lingered around another fifteen minutes by the pubs and clubs and JTR came along after. I doubt it was uncommon to roughly treat ladies of the night when fed up with them hawking. Nobody saw Stride being strangled, punched or stabbed.
why has it always been excepted that Schwartz was telling the truth - he says alot without saying anything - it could well be he killed Lizzie Stride and makes the story of him being chased up because He was seen running away from her killer - as if the killer would chase him - to what end ? - then Eddows etc .
Or it’s possible he was a fantasist or was paid by someone to give a description of someone that looked nothing like the real killer to throw the police off. Could be many reasons if we decide to not believe him but we may never know.
I have two questions for Steven Blomer: 1) Who would he put his money on as to who JTW was? 2) Does he agree that there are major problems with all existing suspects, and in this context, can he comment on Bruce Robinson's theory that it was Michael Maybrick?
Agreed he’s a good candidate but we just don’t know enough about him. And although serial killers often have families, it’s been suggested it was more likely he lived alone unlike Lechmere. I think the case against lechmere may just be an astounding set of circumstantial coincidences but I would definitely put him at the top of the list of credible suspects
So he murders every few weeks and then six months later? Unless he's been in prison then I find it unlikely, and for cuts not be done as well as earlier ones is implausible in my opinion.
Serial killers don't always have a set pattern of time though. Look at Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper. He went a year without killing after his first two murders, then killed 6 women during the following year then had almost another year without killing anyone. He wasn't in prison at any time. Even JTR didnt have a set pattern. He killed his second victim a week after his first, then there were three weeks until the next, then another 5 weeks or so until Kelly.
@@lyndoncmp5751 it depends doesn't it, may I ask what particular victims are you including? Sutcliffe was so prolific that many attacks didn't prove fatal. Also, as with the Whitechapel Murderer , opinions differ as to which offences are attributable to him and which aren't. 'JTR' worked with increasing ferocity and with a comparatively high rapidity. I've always found it hard to believe that when something so powerful and so vile drives someone along it must be very difficult for that person to control. The desire and need to satisfy that it must surely grow stronger all the while, to me this explains the increasing degree of outrage typically displayed with such people's crimes and their eventual need to commit them at virtually every opportunity. Many experts agree that these individuals don't stop until they are caught, in custody for something unrelated, abroad, incapacitated or dead. Take Fred & Rose West for example. They murdered throughout the 1970s, yet apparently stopped with the close of the decade until the murder of their daughter in 1987 and even then it was apparently only through the need to silence her. Personally I find that notion very hard to accept, it's widely held that many bodies lie undiscovered and this is of course is often the situation with other mass killers, a terrible thing for the relatives to deal with of course. These perpetrators gain a twisted satisfaction and sense of power from withholding information as to where such locations are. In addition it can be seen by them as a bargaining chip to be used to gain things such as more salubrious surroundings or perhaps an early release etc from the authorities, or simply kept secret forever. But I digress.
Great video Richard! Always enjoy watching videos with yourself and other talented researchers such as Steve. A couple of issues with the identification and Schwartz. 1) Schwartz’s description of the man doesn’t line up with a Jew. Schwartz reports seeing a man with a fair complexion and broad shoulders. Interesting that he uses the term “broad shoulders”. A similar description is given throughout the investigation by various eye witness testimonies of a man with a fair complexion and “stout” standing about 5’5 - 5’7. However the majority of these reports do not mention the man being of Jewish appearance (unless you count Hutchinson testimony 🙄) 2) If the killer was a Jew, why would he have shouted a racially derogatory antisemitic remark “Lipski” to Schwartz who was easily identified as a Jew when he himself was a jew? The Jews of that era simply did not conduct themselves in this manor. Those who doubt this, please read about the Jews settlement in London and how they conducted themselves. 3) By November of 1888, the word of Jack the Ripper was buzzing. Mary Kelly was 18s in the rear on her rent. Why was she 18s in the rear on her rent? Barnett tells us that she had asked him to to read the papers to him on multiple occasions in regards to the killer. I think that Kelly stuck to her regular clients in fear of the killer and as a result she didn’t make as much money. This suggest that the person who killed Kelly was somebody that she knew and/or trusted. We know that Kelly was with a man at 1:00 AM that was described as being a stout fan with a blotchy face. Upon going into her room with him, she begins to sing to him. Kelly continues to sing until almost 2:00 AM when she goes out to find another client. Now Hutchinson comes in with his lies. Sara Lewis the. Reports seeing a stout man standing and waiting in the cold rain and looking like he was waiting for somebody. Hutchinson then comes forward three days later on November 12th and basically admits that the man that Sara Lewis saw was him. Do the math people. It’s really very simple.
Kosminski is the great red herring of the JTR case. The police didn't have a clue who the killer was. Convenient to finger a foreign nutjob. The police were as incompetent as they were nearly a hundred years later in Yorkshire.
He is a suspect but to say it was him is just as bad as saying it is definitely Cross. There is no solid evidence against either. Although, the DNA tests recently was interesting for a while. Even if it proved inconclusive in the end.
Being someone who read alot about the whitechapel murders and then getting out of it, this channel has been like a drug dealer just supplying me with pure jack the ripper content. So now I'm fully back into the world of jack the ripper.
Quick update…..we still don’t know who it is😜
Most interesting discussion. Enjoyed that. I personally believe, however, that Kosminski is the great red herring of the JTR case. The police didn't have a clue who the killer was.
I also agree with Richard in that Diemschutz likely disturbed the murder of Stride. In that case, it can't have been broad shouldered man as it was circa 15 minutes later. Broad shouldered man vs Stride wasn't really a blitz attack. Schwartz didnt see her being killed. He didn't see her being strangled or her throat cut etc. He simply saw her being thrown or dragged to the ground out on the street. No more than that.
What possibly happened is that broad shouldered man, perhaps tipsy or drunk, was stopped by Stride hawking herself and he was affronted, reacted in an aggressive manner (not an uncommon occurrence), pushed Stride over then went on his way. Stride got up, composed herself and continued hawking for business near the pubs and clubs, staying close by Dutfields Yard as it was a decent spot to conduct that business. She continued for about 15 minutes until the killer came along and was interrupted by Diemschutz. The killer likely came out of one of the pubs in the area or possibly after visiting family close by 😉.
I doubt that broad shouldered man, if he was put off by Schwartz, would have spent time dragging Stride's body into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard. He would have beaten a hasty retreat immediately.
Cheers.
Agree with you on Kosminski.
I love how fair and level headed Steven is he's objective which can't be said about those on the other side of the argument. Please have Steven on more often.
A good observation. However isn't it more of a discussion than an argument, for the events mentioned here took place so long ago and with such incomplete resources available that it's now virtually impossible to be certain of anything to any appreciable degree?
Absolutely spot 👌🏻 on. His argument against Charles Letchmere Cross,was rational & believable,because it was thought out and without bias. The joker who argued in his favour,was totally bias for his suspect (Cross),despite little or no evidence.
@normandavidtidiman9918
Little or no evidence? Being seen by someone else lingering alone and acting suspiciously right next to the body of one of the victims at or near the time of death and with nobody else in sight or sound is the ONLY actual evidence against ANY suspect.
Add to that the known fact that Lechmere then walked right past 29 Hanbury Street just before 4.00 am that morning... a similar time to when the medical examiner said Annie Chapman was killed there a week later.
We can throw in Martha Tabram possibly being killed as late as 3.30 am on a work day for Lechmere..... just a few dozen yards off Wentworth Street, the most direct route to Pickfords for Lechmere and a time close to when Lechmere would have been off and heading to work.
Stride was killed just around the corner from where Lechmere's mother and daughter lived and where Lechmere used to live, and on a night when Lechmere didn't need to be getting up for work a few hours later. It's quite feasible, even likely, Lechmere was visiting his family and possibly his old pubs after a working week.
Lechmere thus has direct connections to FOUR murder spots.
Little to no evidence? Far more than ANY other suspect in fact.
@@rob5944 im not sure what you think the difference is but, id say its a discussion where you produce arguments using what evidence is available. Doing that properly includes stating clearly what you think is certain and what is a judgement based on some amount of personal opinion.
@@normandavidtidiman9918 Spot on.
Good stuff ....Steve saying Polish word meaning ' mind your own business ' sounds the same as Lipsky is interesting ...never heard that ...we learn everyday on this case ....one little thing can take it down another road ....
absolutely, that's potentially a huge detail!
Wow have to Google the translation
JtR didn't concern what was going on around him at all?! He locked the door of 13 Miller's Court after ensuring the shock and horror that awaited people who would find Mary Kelly's body! The man was diabolically cunning and sinister. I don't think he would murder someone (Stride) when he was aware that at least two people were nearby and then go on to commit another horrendous murder within a walking distance. Yes, he was extremely egotistical and self-absorbed with what he was doing but also cunning enough to make Mary Kelly allow him enter her room.
On a side note, I would be very interested in seeing a breakdown of the Alice McKenzie murder by Richard.
Steven is always such a great guest - I always learn more by listening to him. Thanks both.
Another awesome video gents!!! Just my thoughts!!!
I am not convinced that the altercation had anything to do with her murder. Or that any of the people discussed even saw it. I personally think it was an isolated incident and most likely the Ripper was watching in the shadows. Remember, this is someone who has managed to evade capture so far and while I don't think he was a genius or anything, I do think he had some decent level of intelligence ( he was still insane of course ) on top of being incredibly lucky. Someone like this would always steer clear of attention or anything that may get him noticed. He may have thought this was also an opportunity, attack when everyone has left and then the person who assaulted her earlier would get the blame.
I think we also need to remember just how dark these streets really were. If you go out for a walk at night you most likely think your street is pretty well lit, but you can still clearly see dark corners and areas. Now reduce the lighting by say 50% or maybe even more and then get a feel of how dark London really was at night. Yes there was lighting but certainly no where near anything adequate to provide any sort of credible witness accounts in my view.
I tend to agree. I said in another post that Schwartz might just have seen a drunk man accosted by Stride hawking herself, he got affronted and shoved her to the ground then walked on his way. No more than that was seen. Stride then got up, composed herself and continued to linger by the pubs and clubs hawking herself and JTR came along 15 minutes or so later. As you say, he might have already been watching on from somewhere and took the opportunity to be 'nice' to Stride initially.
Its feasible it went down like that.
@@lyndoncmp5751 entirely possible. Or perhaps they were part of a gang. These groups of men were apparently commonplace in larger cities across the country at the time, involved in pick pocketing, extortion, racketeering and general violence. Unfortunately we now see a rise of their modern counterparts engaged in prostitution, human trafficking drugs etc.
I just wrote that in response to somebody
I dont think he shouted "Lipski" i think he was shouting "Lizzie" Liz Stride would have been called Lizzie often i'd imagine. and the foreign guy not knowing the local dialogue very well, got mixed up and then possibly paranoid if he thought that a man had started following him. When he was probably just walking away on the same direction
The "foreign guy" lived on that street for years. He would have known all about the Lipski case from the previous year and may well have known him to see, as Lipski lived on an adjacent street. The infamous surname Lipski would be recognised by all and sundry in that area...
He shouted Lizzie. The Police set up Lipski the year before. They wanted a Jew blamed once again.
@@redtobertshateshandlesif that was the case they would of left the message on the wall !? For all London to see ,there would of been racist murders etc if they wanted to implicate the east end jews
Fantastic discussion. I feel the International Working Men’s Educational Club and the views of its members is integral to this case, and shouldn't be over looked.
Yes there feels like some significance to the murder being committed on their doorstep in that location. Either to harass or implicate them or by a member or members themselves who then gave themselves an alibi. I heard on one of these episodes a story that there was a feud between members of the club and other othodox Jews. So another possible angle is a tit for tat murder series where one of their rivals cut a woman’s throat (Strides) on their home territory to then have a club member or members commit a retaliatory murder and drop the cut off apron piece outside the home of their rivals, seemingly to implicate them in the Ripper murders. The Stride murder was less brutal as it was used to show intent without the need for extreme violence whilst the retaliatory attack was used to indicate an escalation as a threat of what might happen if the rivals didn’t back off.
There's nothing better on a Sunday evening than a JTR discussion. Who could have thought that murder and mayhem in a gothic Victorian setting could be so entertaining.
Berner Street ran south from Commercial ROAD not street. Commercial Street is further north.
Correct, slip of the tongue. A silly mistake.
@@stevenblomer7738hi steve,interesting thoughts regarding schwarts,did he or didnt he appear at the inquest? I dont understand why the police would object to schwartz appearing at the inquest,if they believed schwartz may have seen the murderer. Schwartz' account had already been made public in the star on the 1oct. I would have thought that schwartzs' witnesses testimony would be a great reason to call him to appear at the inquest. Thank u enjoyed ur conversation with richard as always.
My family are from that part on London. My Gradmother (1897-1985) told me that the Police (the Home Office) were worried about anti-semiticm at the time. That's the reason.
Been looking forward to a discussion on this topic. I sometimes feel that researchers and experts are afraid to delve into many of the Jewish issues for fear of treading into subjects or accusations that could cause them to be accused of anti-semitism. Due to the heavy Jewish population of the East End during that period, you can't avoid this problem. This is especially true in the current environment of "wokeness" and cancel culture. I continue to be intrigued and interested in Jacob Levy but it hasn't really been aggressively researched from what I can tell.
Lots of interesting bits about Kosminski. Great and informative video as always.
Thanks for bringing Steven on again I enjoy his talks.
Just a question: was Aaron Kosminski really broad-shouldered?
Great discussion, Richard and Steve. I too believe Elizabeth Stride is a Ripper victim, whatever the complete number may be. The certain evidence, as Steve sums up at the end, fits the suggestion that the simple throat cutting- without further mutilation- results from being interrupted and running off for lack of time or fear of being seen. I think that's the best conclusion from the evidence. It will, however, remain a topic of debate. Well done, gentlemen, and my thanks.
If you look at other victims the ripper was in high risks situations that he could had been caught. Almost all the victims were in places where people were except the last one which waa inside. Jack the Ripper did not stop i think he stopped for awhile than continued.
You 2 are my favorite ripper experts. Could listen to you guys talk all day. Question how many siblings does Aaron Kosminski have? I found some sources saying 2 sisters and 1 brother while others say 2 sisters and 2 brothers.
2 brothers, Isaac and Woolf and 3 sister Matilda, Helen and Bertha.
Birth names were Iciek,Wolek, Malka, Hinde and Blima.
At least one author thinks Israel Schwartz witnessed an unrelated Whitechapel fracas. Do you think this has any merit, Richard?
He could simply have witnessed Stride hawking for business and being forcibly rejected by a disgruntled tipsy man. I don't doubt this was a fairly common occurrence. However, Stride could have then composed herself and carried on lingering nearby, and the killer came along 15 minutes later. Then was disturbed by Diemschutz.
The witness in the Police Convalescent Home might be the mysterious City Policeman who saw the Ripper at Mitre Square as mentioned by Macnaghten:
"Nobody ever saw the Whitechapel Murderer unless possibly it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square..."
- possible James Harvey.
Surely an identification three years post sighting, in totally different light and circumstances is suspect.
These supposed JTR witnesses must have had excellent eyesight and memory. They seem to perfectly recal faces despite it being night time and they only briefly saw the suspect/s. They were brilliant. 🤔
@@lyndoncmp5751 plus the police pressure, other people getting them to describe the man repeatedly, and social anxiety since they'd be with high ranking police officers, who were "toffs"!
@bilindalaw-morley161
Yes that's another factor probably. Very good point.
Richard, considering that Steve mentioned suspect Jacob Levy in the video, I wonder if you will ever invite a Ripperologist to speak about that suspect.
Just a thought if Kosminski didn't speak very good English how would he have negotiated with the victims if he was the Ripper
He couldve said "Lizzie" not "Lipskey".....
Stride was not a ripper victim...she was a victim of DV ..
Thank you gentlemen
Great show guys.
The reason why Stride is suspected by some of us as not being one of the victims is the circumstances with how she was murdered and the lack of the similar signature, not necessarily the belief that it was a domestic violence homicide. The reason why “JTR” chose to kill the victims he did and when he did was because they chose spots that were secluded and that gave him an opportunity to do what he wished. Stride was attacked in a busy spot, and the attack was initiated in full view of multiple people. It just doesn’t make sense. He may have been a somewhat disorganized killer, but he was at least smart enough to reserve his violence until he felt like he had enough privacy to kill. He wasn’t some cunning bastard and probably said weird things about women around others, but he wouldn’t be attacking women in front of other people.
It probably wasn’t a domestic violence homicide, but there’s nothing that suggests Stride was killed by a murderer that has sexual sadistic tendencies. Not at all.
I agree with this. That is why I am not convinced anyone discussed was even involved in her murder. For me it is the following:
1- If anyone discussed killed her than it is a gang or domestic killing.
2- If nobody discussed killed her than it was the Ripper murder.
All Schwartz apparantely saw was Stride being pushed/dragged over onto the pavement. That's it. No blitz attack, no strangling, no stabbing.
What Schwartz saw might have been nothing more than a drunk man walking down the street, getting accosted by Stride hawking herself, and he simply reacted in an aggressive manner then went on his way. It wasn't uncommon to shove or push away annoying sex workers in those days.
Also I can't see anyone, whether JTR or some other killer, needing to beat it from the crime scene after Schwartz saw him and then take the effort to drag Stride's body from the pavement into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard. I don't think the man Schwartz allegedly saw was her killer.
New Sub here😊I trained at The London Hospital Whitechapel in the 70s..always interested in the history of the area.😢 Its happening today news stations and newspapers sensationalism of the news..lies,getting news wrong that turns people against people 😢😢
Ms. Stride was murdered by her pimp while 'jack' was over hunting in Mitre Square.
'jack' returns to his lodgings at Batty street right in the middle of the 'stride' chaos and he panics vacating his room and leaving behind that now-lost 'evidence' and that upset landlady.
This is my favourite Jack The Ripper channel on TH-cam. Keep up the great work 👍
If the attack took place where her body was, the murderer killed her just outside a meeting of fifty or sixty Jewish radicals singing socialist and anarchist songs.
Makes sense. The family could hardly say can you please lock kozminski up because he's jack the ripper. They would have to have a reason for him to be sectioned.
The most infamous and brutal killer of the times wouldn't have been put in Colney Hatch.
Thanks Richard I love your videos all ways look forward to seeing them 👻👻
Ok what I don’t get is the size of that alleyway that’s always arrowed as being the entrance to the back exit of the yard. In the photos it doesn’t look large enough to fit a horse and cart down. Am I missing something?
Would a Jewish man call anorher Jewish man Lipski? I don't think Stride's attacker was a Jew.
A Good Presentation as Usual,I'll not say a word about fingering Kosminsky😆
Thank you for the insightful discussion. A number of strong points were made. But still, it's all just speculation in my opinion. I feel we will never really know what happened. I guess that's why the legend persists. By any chance, did Charles Cross have broad shoulders?
Another fantastic video.
You mean Lechmere. His name wasn't Cross 😉. He certainly frequented that particular neighborhood. His mother/daughter lived there and he used to live there. Might have visited them, or one of his drinking haunts (if he was a pub goer). He didn't have to work the next day.
@@lyndoncmp5751 He was employed, when a teenager, by Pickfords under the name Charles Cross, the surname of his then step-father.
@davekeating
His name was Charles Lechmere. It's on over a hundred documents, including the most recent census. His real name was not Charles Cross.
im an athiest and probably will be my whole live. but if by some chance i might be wrong the only thing i will ask be4 certainly be send to hell for not believing is who the F Jack the ripper was.
That was excellent. Thank you very much, Richard and Steve.
I think there were two people involved in the killings and both were jewish. At no. 40 right next to the yard where Stride was murdered was the International Working Men’s Educational Club.
Off topic but imo being arrested and fined ten shillings for an unmuzzled dog smacks of police prejudice, whether racial or personal
It was against the law, how is enforcing the law wrong
Thank you for another fascinating interview 😊
This is a good conversation. Both full of facts and open minded
Except calling what Schwartz said he saw a "blitz attack". It really wasn't. She was merely pushed or dragged to the ground. No more than that. Schwartz didnt see her being suddenly strangled or having her throat cut.
Except that with poor lighting it’s hard to know what he saw; possibly the pushing to the ground was a slash to the throat. Stride then staggered severely and mortally injured down the alley to the yard where she fell and died whilst the broad shouldered man ran off as he knew he’d already been seen by one or possibly two witnesses (if the pipe smoking man wasn’t his accomplice). For all he knew, Stride would survive the knife wound and Schwartz was going to fetch a constable so he beat a hasty retreat and to find another victim where he’d have more time and not be disturbed.
The shwartz story was in the star on oct 1st,he came forward on the afternoon of 30 sept the report says. Polly nichols abdominal injuries were made with a knife as we know, alice mackenzies wounds to abdomen were made by fingernails. Thank you really good video.
So Alice was killed by....... a werewolf!!!!
@@lyndoncmp5751good one ,im going on a report by dr philips
@@lyndoncmp5751here that report ,aug 15 1888,manchester weekly news. 'Dr philips' there was some marks about the external which he did not mention on the last occasion.there were five in number,but with the exception of one on the left side of the abdomen.the largest one was the lowest.the small one was the exceptional one mentioned which was typical of a finger nail mark.they were colored and were caused by the fingernails and thumb nail of a hand ' .'they were caused by a broad hand'. So there u have it,fingernails. No werewolf in london im afraid.
Hi, I'm the poster of this discussion on the FB page. Thank you for the indepth explanation of the situation. Must say I still consider Kosminski to be the best candidate.
Korosh
Hi Korosh. Thank you for the original post. The question was really well made, and it opened up a great discussion.
No evidence against Kosminski what so ever
@kevinkenny6975
Indeed. Only dubious police opinions, and we know the police were pretty clueless about serial killers and the type of people they thought most likely......such as a foreign oddball, needing to be put in an asylum.
JTR was very unlikely to have been such a person.
This whole thing has really helped me understand anti-semtism at the time.
‘Jewish Sunday’ is a Saturday and Kosminski was given til Monday to pay 10s.
Indeed, did I say the wrong day in the video, if so my appologies
We know that Bond presented the profile/report on the four murders beginning with Bucks Row, and then examined Mary Kelly, but I can't seem to find whether or not he was asked to, or did, look into Emma Smith and Martha Tabram, and ruled them out?
Richard, Steve, anyone, able to point me to some details?
Hi Andrew. As far as I can make out, he wasn't asked to comment on Martha Tabram and Emma Smith.
@@JackTheRipperTours Cheers Richard.
I can well understand that with regard to Emma Smith, due to the circumstances and time gap. But I have to say I am a bit surprised by the idea of not including Martha Tabram.
Another excellent video Richard,I’ve been sporadically fascinated with the Whitechapel murders since I was a teenager(long ago🙂)..wandered around the area a few times from the 80’s onwards and have seen area change over time,as for the stride murder id imagine if it was the killer seen by Schwartz he maybe quickly despatched her then fled realising even for him the risk in mutilating the poor woman was too great after realising there were 2 witnesses and drawing attention to himself shouting in the street,I’d think him gone reasonable amount of time before that horse and cart arrived,didn’t a woman living in house next to the alley hear footsteps hurrying away which she thought was a beat policeman?sometime before strides body was discovered.
If Schwartz really saw her killer then why, if the killer felt he needed to depart ASAP, did he take the time to drag her body from the pavement into the dark recesses of the entrance to Dutfields Yard? Surely he wouldn't have bothered to do that and would have just beaten a hasty retreat immediately?
I think the man Schwartz saw could have just been a drunken passer by, accosted by Stride hawking herself, and he reacted angrily pushing her over then went on his way and Stride got up, composed herself and carried on lingering nearby for business until JTR came along fifteen minutes later. I don't think it was uncommon back then for men to react angrily, pushing one of the many ladies of the night away in an aggressive manner. That's all Schwartz might have seen.
Why would the killer dispatch her when he knew he had two eye witnesses to identify him at a later date? Either one could have ran off to find a policeman...so why risk capture when you can walk away and kill a different victim elsewhere?
Seems more likely that this incident didn't involve the killer, unless he was nearby and saw this and took his opportunity.
Israel Schwartz went into Leman Street police station on the same day he witnessed the attack , just after dinner time on Sunday 30th ..within two days! As you say
I agrree also Schwartz probably saw, the murderer at work .. All you have to do is look at the doctors reports post mortem to find the corroberating evidence of what he states happened
Thomas Bond was never asked to investigate Martha Tabram. I wonder what his conclusion would have been if he was asked.
Good stuff from Steve again clearing up the doubts on Schwartz statement . Steve is like an oracle on the facts 😂
I love this duo and I especially love Richard's voice!
Has anyone from this channel researched Fredrick Demmings? He's the 1 who some say was Jack the Ripper and moved to Australia...
Deeming
If you believe Liz was a Ripper victim, then you have to give credemce to the whole ' witness' situation at Berner Street.
I believe that her killer was definitely seen that night..
Not necessarily. Broad shouldered man might just have been a drunk who was accosted by Stride hawking herself, he got affronted and I his drunken state he pushed her roughly away and she fell on the pavement. He could have then gone on his way and then Stride could have then just got up, lingered around another fifteen minutes by the pubs and clubs and JTR came along after.
I doubt it was uncommon to roughly treat ladies of the night when fed up with them hawking.
Nobody saw Stride being strangled, punched or stabbed.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Fascinating stuff! Many thanks :)
Great Richard will watch tonight 👍
why has it always been excepted that Schwartz was telling the truth - he says alot without saying anything - it could well be he killed Lizzie Stride and makes the story of him being chased up because He was seen running away from her killer - as if the killer would chase him - to what end ? - then Eddows etc .
Or it’s possible he was a fantasist or was paid by someone to give a description of someone that looked nothing like the real killer to throw the police off. Could be many reasons if we decide to not believe him but we may never know.
I have two questions for Steven Blomer:
1) Who would he put his money on as to who JTW was?
2) Does he agree that there are major problems with all existing suspects, and in this context, can he comment on Bruce Robinson's theory that it was Michael Maybrick?
No major problems against Lechmere.
Agreed he’s a good candidate but we just don’t know enough about him. And although serial killers often have families, it’s been suggested it was more likely he lived alone unlike Lechmere. I think the case against lechmere may just be an astounding set of circumstantial coincidences but I would definitely put him at the top of the list of credible suspects
pipe man never came forward that gives the impression he was somehow involved
Or didn't want to be connected with it in case he was wrongly accused.
So he murders every few weeks and then six months later? Unless he's been in prison then I find it unlikely, and for cuts not be done as well as earlier ones is implausible in my opinion.
Serial killers don't always have a set pattern of time though. Look at Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper. He went a year without killing after his first two murders, then killed 6 women during the following year then had almost another year without killing anyone. He wasn't in prison at any time.
Even JTR didnt have a set pattern. He killed his second victim a week after his first, then there were three weeks until the next, then another 5 weeks or so until Kelly.
@@lyndoncmp5751 it depends doesn't it, may I ask what particular victims are you including? Sutcliffe was so prolific that many attacks didn't prove fatal. Also, as with the Whitechapel Murderer , opinions differ as to which offences are attributable to him and which aren't. 'JTR' worked with increasing ferocity and with a comparatively high rapidity. I've always found it hard to believe that when something so powerful and so vile drives someone along it must be very difficult for that person to control. The desire and need to satisfy that it must surely grow stronger all the while, to me this explains the increasing degree of outrage typically displayed with such people's crimes and their eventual need to commit them at virtually every opportunity. Many experts agree that these individuals don't stop until they are caught, in custody for something unrelated, abroad, incapacitated or dead. Take Fred & Rose West for example. They murdered throughout the 1970s, yet apparently stopped with the close of the decade until the murder of their daughter in 1987 and even then it was apparently only through the need to silence her. Personally I find that notion very hard to accept, it's widely held that many bodies lie undiscovered and this is of course is often the situation with other mass killers, a terrible thing for the relatives to deal with of course. These perpetrators gain a twisted satisfaction and sense of power from withholding information as to where such locations are. In addition it can be seen by them as a bargaining chip to be used to gain things such as more salubrious surroundings or perhaps an early release etc from the authorities, or simply kept secret forever. But I digress.
Great video Richard! Always enjoy watching videos with yourself and other talented researchers such as Steve.
A couple of issues with the identification and Schwartz.
1) Schwartz’s description of the man doesn’t line up with a Jew. Schwartz reports seeing a man with a fair complexion and broad shoulders. Interesting that he uses the term “broad shoulders”. A similar description is given throughout the investigation by various eye witness testimonies of a man with a fair complexion and “stout” standing about 5’5 - 5’7. However the majority of these reports do not mention the man being of Jewish appearance (unless you count Hutchinson testimony 🙄)
2) If the killer was a Jew, why would he have shouted a racially derogatory antisemitic remark “Lipski” to Schwartz who was easily identified as a Jew when he himself was a jew? The Jews of that era simply did not conduct themselves in this manor. Those who doubt this, please read about the Jews settlement in London and how they conducted themselves.
3) By November of 1888, the word of Jack the Ripper was buzzing. Mary Kelly was 18s in the rear on her rent. Why was she 18s in the rear on her rent? Barnett tells us that she had asked him to to read the papers to him on multiple occasions in regards to the killer. I think that Kelly stuck to her regular clients in fear of the killer and as a result she didn’t make as much money. This suggest that the person who killed Kelly was somebody that she knew and/or trusted. We know that Kelly was with a man at 1:00 AM that was described as being a stout fan with a blotchy face. Upon going into her room with him, she begins to sing to him. Kelly continues to sing until almost 2:00 AM when she goes out to find another client. Now Hutchinson comes in with his lies. Sara Lewis the. Reports seeing a stout man standing and waiting in the cold rain and looking like he was waiting for somebody. Hutchinson then comes forward three days later on November 12th and basically admits that the man that Sara Lewis saw was him.
Do the math people. It’s really very simple.
Is Steve lit by gas lamp?
No, police lantern...
The ripper was Maybrick… case closed
There was only five murders at the hands of jack
There are accounts of 11 victims. Stands to reason JTR would kill more than only 5 women.😮
Excellent as usual chaps, thoroughly enjoyed that.
It was Aaron Kosminsky. Case closed 😅
No it wasn't. No evidence at all against him.
Kosminski is the great red herring of the JTR case. The police didn't have a clue who the killer was. Convenient to finger a foreign nutjob.
The police were as incompetent as they were nearly a hundred years later in Yorkshire.
He is a suspect but to say it was him is just as bad as saying it is definitely Cross. There is no solid evidence against either. Although, the DNA tests recently was interesting for a while. Even if it proved inconclusive in the end.
Kosminsky or Kosminski? Aha, the mystery continues…