this is actually just a very small part of my mod too :) Interacting with her is when you learn about opening Dwemer Artifact Vaults left behind by ancient Dwemer Explorers while you traverse Boethia's Realm
@Samuel Sun Something lore "unfriendly" would defy the lore This doesn't defy the lore, it speculates it According to official lore dwemer who were in other realms didn't vanish with the rest So according to rules and precedence set by the lore it's very possible that there are dwemer left in existence as long as they were in another realm when Kagrenac did his thing And since we don't have an official list of every single dwemer in existence on hand - the lore doesn't state there aren't more dwemer left. Thus rendering this mod lore friendly, or at least this scene You boob
Translation for those who don't speak Dwemeri, aka Nerdish. The process of ascending past mortality, or CHIM, is achieved by two things. First, knowing that all of the Aurbis, the universe of TES, is nothing but the dream of a being called the Godhead. Second, one must have the personal fortitude, some might call it arrogance, to believe in spite of this knowledge that they, despite being a part of the dream, *_do_* actually exist as a real and seperate individual. Once these two seemingly irreconcilable facts are understood, one achieves complete power within the dream. Only two known individuals ever accomplished this, and one of them was Vivec. Not the entire Tribunal, only Vivec. What Sodrys is saying is that when Kagrenac tapped the power of the Heart, he became aware of the true nature of the Aurbis, and because of the Dwemer's psychic link, they all learnt this information simultaneously. Being a people bound by the strictures of logic, they were unable to reconcile the knowledge that they didn't truely exist with an irrational belief that they did, so they stopped existing.
I love this. Basically, if you're in a dream you only gain true control (godhood) if you realise, acknowledge and accept that truth. It's like Lucid Dreaming, basically. The Dwemer realised it, but couldn't accept it. Edit: My personal understanding of this has changed a little further. I wonder if the Dwemer did achieve ascendancy by "understanding" that their real world was a dream. They were shown the truth of the Matrix. Trouble is, because they couldn't accept this they literally "willed" themselves out of existence with their newly obtained god powers, because their core belief was that they couldn't be in a dream, and thus it was so, they were no longer in the dream and therefore they disappeared from existence. To me, this explains why to achieve god powers you have to simultaneously know that the dream is the truth, and you have to accept it as truth to basically remain in existence.
@@GeorgeThoughts That's not exactly true. You achieve power in the dream by knowing the truth and believing otherwise in spite of it simultaneously. It's basically the metaphysical equivalent of plugging ones ears and going 'lalalala I can't hear you.' The Dwemer were bound by logic and so they didn't have any choice _but_ to accept the truth when presented with irrefutable proof of it.
@@Lyndonmaman Except it is not plugging one's ears. It is hearing and even listening to the tune, but still believing it is not there. The inverse is a better metaphor. It is knowing there is no sound, but still believing that it is there. If one believes it is there, one manifests it into existence. If one is able to manifest it into existence, one is able to form, transform and transcend its existence. Now, apply this to one's own existence and one can transcend one's own existence, thereby gaining immortality.
The Dwemer logically came to the conclusion of the dream, when asked to believe in the lie they chose logic and truth. This led to their undoing, the Dwemer mocked divinity while seeking to harvest its power and thus they were forced to choose between believing or not
@@badnewsforya- It's been said that the entire Aurbis(The Existing Universe o the elder scrolls and all it contains is a dream, dreamed by the Creator, and all happens in his mind
@@badnewsforya-Reality in Elder Scrolls is just a Dream. When you realise this you "Wake Up" and either become a god, like the Tribunal, or cease to exist because you believe you aren't a dream like the Dwemer.
I remember reading that love (even a selfish love) was required to achieve CHIM..... Something about stepping outside of reality and seeing that you don't exist = zero sum result.....unless you loved enough (lived for more than yourself) that you could will your persistence even though you don't exist. It's how Talos did it, anyway.....and I guess the Dwemer were too logical (impartial/detached) for their own good!
idk, I get the feeling that Vivec lived only for himself but he was pushed into chim by using the tools. Instead of changing the globe like Talos did, Vivec rewrote history so that he had always been a god. Vivec probably: 'I was always a god, I just forgot. Walloping the Heart of Lorcan with this hammer merely reminded me.'
@@Zebulization a very good point and a very big part of the writing in the mod, this is just the opinion of one person, who wasn’t even there when it happened :)
@@Zebulization Vivec's love was for himself. Chim requires strong emotion and attachment, a fuel of passion to reconnect with the dream after waking, to dream yourself into existence, and with you, many other things should you so will it. In the case of the living tribunal, their love was mostly selfish. Literal arrogance, to look in the face of unreality and proclaim in spite that you live nonetheless. Or perhaps moreso than pride, it was spite itself. To deny not out of care for oneself, but hatred of the original spirit. To make one's very essence out of insult to existing divinity. Perhaps a cocktail of both. Gods or not, the tribunal were still mortals, and mortal minds, believe it or not, are far more complex than those of gods. Gods have but one domain of authority, and one realm to rule, where mortals oversee interconnected lives, and might walk in any land they please.
You have to consider Tiber septim was a dragonborne like miraak before he was arrogant, hotheaded and ambitious due to his dragon blood and the philosophy it come with it. The dwemer yes had some of these treats but they believed in logic and that everything works by it even the gods ,magic and anu/padomay so the realization that world is but a dream was to much even for them
They didn't zero sum. Plenty to suggest they didn't such as conjuring dwemer automatons etc. people who say the dwemer zero summed is BC the lack of evidence of their being no communication no evidence they ascended like the aedra
@@hal0justcal865 I am surprised that zero sum is a theory that many share. If Dwemer had zero summed, as far as I know - all the evidence of them existing would've disappeared as well, as if they never existed. To me the information points to Dwemer ascending, and because it's not obvious with physical presentation of it like you said - people assume they zero summed.
@@boi3987 it genuinely seems like a cop out answer. As you said. If they zero sum the word dwemer wouldn't exist. Songs about them gone. Their buildings and all evidence of them being on tamriel gone.
@@hal0justcal865 Yessir, and there's cases like Falion whom said that they've met the Dwemer. That is of course not by itself enough to serve as evidence, but combining all the evidence together imo points to them ascending. People for some reason assume that by logic one would come to the conclusion of not existing in the dream that is elder scrolls, but it could be argued that with logic one could also come to the conclusion of them existing, despite it being within a dream, "I think therefore I am". Dwemer logic is much more advanced than that of others, and what is logic but understanding of what we see as randomness of the universe, and the chaos of it? Logic is ever-evolving, and I think it's fair to make an assumption of dwemer ascending to a point where they do not need a body, or a physical presence to "exist". However that'd be contrary to statement of Falion, unless he was on some really strong skooma or something haha. Either way, the point still stands.
That's pretty cool how she is acutely aware of the Question and Answer for Chim, but does not ask it out loud knowing she, and her race, can never answer it the way the Tribunal can. 10/10 attention to detail lore mod
@@assortedmunchies9281 "Does the Dream still need the Dreamer?" (Since you are a part of the God Head's dream, are you independent, or a figmant?) And the answer is you refuse to disappear, even when confronted with absolute awareness of the fact you are not real at all (I am not real, but I am real, so I am real (Think Neo from the matrix power gain once he really sees the Matrix)). Otherwise your part of the dream wakes up and you cease to exist
@assortedmunchies9281 While they never outright say Who/What the God Head is, it could also be implied that the real-life writers/programmers/modders collectively make the God Head. That means that, when Vivec achieved Chim, he unlocked certain functions of the ES Construction Kit
@Arcane740 So it's being implied that the universe is God Head's Dream? Also, I've seen it said that Vivec achieved CHIM, but the other two didn't? Also that him and Talos are the only mortals to achieve CHIM I believe? What's your take?
@assortedmunchies9281 Yeah, that all of the Elder Scrolls lore is a dream in some unfathomable beings head. The Elder Scrolls themselves are supposed to be pieces of the God Head's mind itself. The reason Vivec is the only one is because he is the wisdom aspect of Almsivi. Almalexia is focused on strength and power, where Sothas Sil focuses on Logic and knowledge. Not sure if either Alma or Sothas are aware, but both Vivec and Dagoth Ur came to the question and answered in a way that stopped them from Zero Sum Edit: Talos became so powerful that he touched the barrier and realized he was a figment. He just had the will to stay material
Imagine you are in some crazy fucking battle with the Death Commandos from Dune, when your leader turns on the heart of an actual God. The first thing that happens is you find out, essentially, you are an NPC in a video game. You are then asked if you know you don't exist. If you cannot literally will yourself to stay material and say "I exist even though I don't ", everything about you down to the threads of your soul dissappear completely. This happened to all the Dwemer except one and a few ghosts
Lorkhan gave love to his followers (the mer can kiss my butt with the whole being tricked, it's their fault if they can't enjoy the little things in life), the Dwemer understood so little about love that in the end, reality itself shattered them. Do you not understand why love is fundamental to achieve enlighment in all religions? Because it's the only force that is capable of keeping you alive in the face of oblivion, in the face of forces uncaring and beyond your understanding. That's the point, if you have nothing and care for nothing, you become nothing. A world of sociopaths, narcisists and greedy bastards, will burn itself into nothing.
err what about Vivec achieving chim? Is Vivec not a narcissist? I thought he only elevated and cared for the dunmer because he felt that they should be his to shape.
love is literally cringe and intellectual behemoths such as tesla or newton did well for both themselves and the world around them without ever having experienced it
@@spooksy9212 Both of them had love for money and/or science and more likely for themselves, more than likely they also had people, things and ideas they loved. Love is key, to not feel love is to die in mediocrity.
@@Zebulization Vivec loved himself. The Dwemer literally have no concept of it. Despite what Lorkhan tried to achieve he and the rest of the species possessed no concept of love towards eachother or themselves. The only thing the Dwemer strived towards was progress and results. They were completely void of anything other than impartial, practical sadism in order to achieve their goals.
So basically they believed so much into their own bullshit the heart allowed the tribunal to ascend simply because they felt they would over the dwemer logically rationalizing a way to. In simple terms the tribunal had the resolve to risk and sacrifice anything where the dwemer never would. The heart of lorkhan responds to heavy risk heavy reward mentality. Makes sense after hearing out daggoth's explanations; He believed soo hard into his own bullshit it became reality soo much so that the heart allowed daggoth to will himself back into existence as a physical phantom who was made aware of our world, the real world, the ones who made the game itself. Thus he was labeled a false dreamer.
and afaik Corpus was him spreading his mind around the world - eventually being able to take control of the Dreamer, Ainu, becoming the Dreamer himself if theoretically left unchecked
My personal theory is that when kagronak struck the heart of lorkhan every single deep elf/dwemer the same exact thing happened to them as what happened to that mage during the college of winterhold side quest where are you receive keening except unlike the gem he used the heart of lorkhan could actually hold a soul, and 100% of the deep elf race was imprisoned within the heart of lorkhan. Then when some of its power seeped out into the surrounding rocks forming the heart stones that were later flung from Red mountain and ended up on solstheim at least some of the deep elves were transferred into the heart stones, which would explain why during the side quest line you can do for master nelloth that lets you join house telvani you can find a journal entry from somebody who has a heart stone embedded in her chest because she was neloth's test subject. The diary is split up into 3 books and in one of them she claims to be hearing the voices of the deep elves in her head, which would certainly be possible if some of them were within the heart stone embedded in her chest
Interesting. So the idea is that, because of the Dwemer pursuit of pure cold logic and their detachment, they were incapable of achieving CHIM and so, when the heart of Lorkhan went haywire, they just ceased to exist because of it.
Some sources say that the elder scrolls universe is Anus dream and by archieving CHIM you basically realize this and become the dreamer, turning everything into a lucid dream. The thing is that you also have the ability to just wake up and appearently this is what the dwemer did. They just 'woke up' from the dream and left the universe.
@@lightborn9071 I thought zero summing removed you from the timeline completely though? You never existed and no one remembers you. Since people remember the Dwemer, and their works still exist, is this a third option? Instead of achieving chim or zero summing they are just expelled from that universe?
@@Zebulization No one knows for sure. The thing with the elder scrolls lore is that one can interpret almost anything in many different ways. I think it all could play a significant role.
It does make some sense though. Chim is the process where in the user attempts to realize reality. Normally, a individual can't face that they are a part of the Dreamer's world, they are figments. What Chim is, is the result of realizing this truth, and at the same time maintaining one's reality. To adhere to cold logic means to embrace that truth and through that, also forget what makes them alive. Their feelings are as real as their minds, and just as important in maintaining the Self. To face the Dreamer, the Chim-user needs to at once face reality that their thoughts and emotions at the products of the Dreamer, but at the same time not lose grasp that these thoughts and emotions come from them as well and define them. It's because of this failure to reconcile difference, thrust well before being ready into Chim, that the Dwemer failed. They literally erased themselves from all planes. Talos Succeeded however, maintaining himself whilst realizing the Dream, and this is why Cyrodil is a temperate place, not a hot jungle. He modified the dream, and even now so to speak, is a god. This is in essence, making him at once a Aedra, and not a Aedra. he is..more. On a level like Akatosh.
So the dwemer could not handle being in a "dream" and being unreal so they disappeared? While those dunmer gods and talos were able to believe in the dream?
@@luckyabdurrahman1085 I kind of think that they not only failed to achieve chim, but that they didn't even fail properly. I suspect that they didn't zero sum, they were simply ejected from their universe during that moment. That is why history didn't forget them.
Knowing the kind of "question" CHIM requires an answer to means she was more than just "aware" of Kagranaks research- FASCINATING I can't wait for this mod : D
I absolutely cannot wait for this mod. Looks epic! I really hope they hire Michael Kirkbride again at some point. He’s still working, and his ideas are a huge part of what made Morrowind unforgettable.
I think this mod in general is the closest we'll ever get to understanding why the dwemer disappeared to begin with. You can see clues literally everywhere in Skyrim itself. Tonal architecture, the use of aetherium, certain soul gems having sound modifications that seem custom made to manipulate matter on those scales. What I find ironic is that logic and mathematics ended up being their Achilles heel in that regard. I can't wait for this mod to go live! Liked and subbed.🥰
shes actually just one character in a larger labyrinth of Boethia's realm :) I tried my best to stay as lore accurate as I could to the idea of a dwemer making their best guess at what happened, since ultimately she cant really know :D
In a universe where gods are scientifically proven to be real and has a tangible impact on the world, being an atheist is quite literally the most foolish thing you can do
@@Watchmanskey If I recall correctly, they weren't really atheist just thought they were better and could achieve the same divinity without the divine, but I could be off the mark on that or misremembering
In Morrowind, there's a telvani wizard who, if you bring him this dwemer book to translate, will explain the dwemer destroyed themselves or were destroyed by the gods after trying to create a god of their own with their technology.
The dwemer kind of reminded me of a scene from Planescape: Torment where the main character is in a plane where thought affects reality. They can debate with a man and convince him that he doesn't exist, upon which the man promptly disappears. His arguments were just too good, and the man's nonexistance was the only logical conclusion. I feel like that's how it felt for the dwemer. Like "We have definite evidence that we're not real" They were too logical for their own good.
So, the Dwemer became aware of the Dream and decided to break the 4th wall and question existence itself which ultimately led to their downfall. That's like the rare moments when you become aware of your own dream during sleep (not speaking of lucid dreaming) and right the moment you reach that level of awareness, you wake up in your bed.
The only thing about lucid dreams like that is that sometimes I've woken up and then chosen to go back to sleep, managing to pick up the dream where I left off. I wonder if there's ever been someone who almost zero sums and then just reverts to a state before Chim. Almost like a conscious defense mechanism of rejecting the truth and saving themselves.
There'd be no way of knowing for sure in character because obviously they wouldn't remember the truth, otherwise they wouldn't have escaped their fate.
@@bullethail3875 I've had three dreams like this where I would be half lucid and the moment I reach lucidity, I feel so aware and something in my dream happens that it just erases it completely. I'm conscious that it happens, but every time I try to remember what was said or done, my brain actively fights back against it. One especially was a nightmare where I was talking about something ontological with a weird flesh moon and it said something that my brain actively scrubbed out the information that even though I woke up, I was unable to recall it as much as I tried thinking about it. It wasn't forgetting, I feel like I was actively blocking out information. Whatever it was, it was self defense indeed.
Dwemer: "Math. Science. Logic. Gods and superstitions are for the lesser primates!" Kagrenac: "Hey guys, it's kinda real and...we're not." Dwemer: "Well, fu-"
Love it. The way I always saw it, its a lucid dreamer effect. You either become a lucid dreamer or you "wake up". Once you know its a dream you only ever have those two options. It's funny though, both the Dwemer and the Chimer/Dunmer are races with egos. The Chimer/Dunmer's religious ego that led them to think themselves to be equal to the gods and the Dwemer's (intelligent) ego that led them to think themselves to be (potentially) better than the gods but it was the Dwemer's own (intelligent) ego that eventually led them to ultimately become Zero Summed.
I'll just remind you: TES world is in shape of the Wheel. And it's a dream. How long will the Wheel turn? How long the dreamer will sleep? What happens when he wakes up? What happened to Anu and Padamai? Or smth like that idk I'm not deep lore master.
Usually custom voice mods are very bad, but this is great and if I didn't know it was a mod I would definitely think this would have been part of the game, great work!
This is actually incredible. It's so well-written, it's insane. The beautiful voice acting, hell, the imagination of this entirety, of the dream, is just... truly peak. I am floored.
This is exactly how I see them explaining this too lol, always thought that the panic for more power was what did them in. People think they’ve left to pursue something greater or found something, no, simply panic and want for power
The idea of the dream has always been so cool to me, the realization of what reality really is leads to non - existence, but achieving a balance between living a lie and knowing the truth grants you all powerfulness in said lie, in which you are still ultimately obligated to live
Okay I know someone else is thinking it but like.. would their kid not be the strongest person in Tamrials lore? I mean they'd be Dwemer and Dragonborne
The lie is existence. It is a dream, dwemer understanding logic and reason alone, when confronted with this truth, accept it and "wake up" and disappeared from the dream.
So basically, in pursuit of a power that would rival the Divinity of the gods and the Th'Um of the Dragons, they turned towards "Logic and science". Hence the reason why the Dwermer were far advanced compared to all other races. However while doing so they kept falling back on the old magics of both things. Which is why their machines and automotans can contain Soul Crystals whenever you sometimes defeat them. In any case, this pursuit of power through "Logic" would be their downfall as the defined "Logic" they invisoned would rival Divinity, wasn't ready or it wasn't finished. Resulting in the activation of the Heart making all Dwermer in the blast radius, disapear from existence itself as their "Logical technology" failed them.
They didn't zero sum or else we wouldn't be talking about them. To zero sum is to never have existed. There's be no ruins. Nothing. Only yagrim and what he built and did would still exist
to understand that you are simultaneously a mere fragment of a dream, yet also the dreamer itself would be like if one of the characters in your dream became lucid independently and separate from your own sense of self
They went full inception and played a tone which extinguished themselves for following the logical path to its ultimate end. They don’t exist, nothing exist.
Wheels Of Lull is still one of tr best Skyrim mods ever put to paper. Its crazy how it starts as such a dumb premise and then just...becomes a fucking masterpiece immediately after its start.
A mod that is not only lore friendly, well voiced, refreshing, and provides a very likely answer to what happened. This is fantastic!
this is actually just a very small part of my mod too :) Interacting with her is when you learn about opening Dwemer Artifact Vaults left behind by ancient Dwemer Explorers while you traverse Boethia's Realm
its not lore friendly... as we do not know if any Dwemer actually exist other than the one in Morrowind
@@samuelsun3560 You don't know. Not, "there isn't."
@Samuel Sun Something lore "unfriendly" would defy the lore
This doesn't defy the lore, it speculates it
According to official lore dwemer who were in other realms didn't vanish with the rest
So according to rules and precedence set by the lore it's very possible that there are dwemer left in existence as long as they were in another realm when Kagrenac did his thing
And since we don't have an official list of every single dwemer in existence on hand - the lore doesn't state there aren't more dwemer left.
Thus rendering this mod lore friendly, or at least this scene
You boob
- lore friendly
- dwemer itself
No way
Translation for those who don't speak Dwemeri, aka Nerdish.
The process of ascending past mortality, or CHIM, is achieved by two things. First, knowing that all of the Aurbis, the universe of TES, is nothing but the dream of a being called the Godhead. Second, one must have the personal fortitude, some might call it arrogance, to believe in spite of this knowledge that they, despite being a part of the dream, *_do_* actually exist as a real and seperate individual. Once these two seemingly irreconcilable facts are understood, one achieves complete power within the dream. Only two known individuals ever accomplished this, and one of them was Vivec. Not the entire Tribunal, only Vivec.
What Sodrys is saying is that when Kagrenac tapped the power of the Heart, he became aware of the true nature of the Aurbis, and because of the Dwemer's psychic link, they all learnt this information simultaneously. Being a people bound by the strictures of logic, they were unable to reconcile the knowledge that they didn't truely exist with an irrational belief that they did, so they stopped existing.
completely perfect explanation :) also, it's only her opinion! she doesn't totally know either :D
Man thank you so much for the explanation. I red CHIM and Dream and Godhead everywhere here and I couldn’t understand shit, until now.
I love this. Basically, if you're in a dream you only gain true control (godhood) if you realise, acknowledge and accept that truth. It's like Lucid Dreaming, basically. The Dwemer realised it, but couldn't accept it.
Edit: My personal understanding of this has changed a little further. I wonder if the Dwemer did achieve ascendancy by "understanding" that their real world was a dream. They were shown the truth of the Matrix. Trouble is, because they couldn't accept this they literally "willed" themselves out of existence with their newly obtained god powers, because their core belief was that they couldn't be in a dream, and thus it was so, they were no longer in the dream and therefore they disappeared from existence.
To me, this explains why to achieve god powers you have to simultaneously know that the dream is the truth, and you have to accept it as truth to basically remain in existence.
@@GeorgeThoughts That's not exactly true. You achieve power in the dream by knowing the truth and believing otherwise in spite of it simultaneously. It's basically the metaphysical equivalent of plugging ones ears and going 'lalalala I can't hear you.' The Dwemer were bound by logic and so they didn't have any choice _but_ to accept the truth when presented with irrefutable proof of it.
@@Lyndonmaman Except it is not plugging one's ears. It is hearing and even listening to the tune, but still believing it is not there. The inverse is a better metaphor. It is knowing there is no sound, but still believing that it is there. If one believes it is there, one manifests it into existence. If one is able to manifest it into existence, one is able to form, transform and transcend its existence. Now, apply this to one's own existence and one can transcend one's own existence, thereby gaining immortality.
The Dwemer logically came to the conclusion of the dream, when asked to believe in the lie they chose logic and truth. This led to their undoing, the Dwemer mocked divinity while seeking to harvest its power and thus they were forced to choose between believing or not
every time I see someone understand I smile haha :) this is my favorite franchise ever, so it's so refreshing seeing everyone know what's up :D
what dream? could you explain more?
@@badnewsforya- It's been said that the entire Aurbis(The Existing Universe o the elder scrolls and all it contains is a dream, dreamed by the Creator, and all happens in his mind
@@badnewsforya-Reality in Elder Scrolls is just a Dream. When you realise this you "Wake Up" and either become a god, like the Tribunal, or cease to exist because you believe you aren't a dream like the Dwemer.
They did not reach chim basically the godjead made them fade out?
Dragonborn: "What's that weird thing on your head?"
Sodrys: *Takes that personally*
Dragonborn: (Still waiting for an answer.)
Dragonborn: (Should I ever come here?)
@@albinoasesino
Random Ass NPC: "Never should have come here!" *ShasszzZingKt!*
Dragonborn: (I deserved that one.)
@@legonutzsmurf4067 I also want an answer now. What's that thing???
@@notveryartificial4486 A gift from rhe Omnissiah.
I remember reading that love (even a selfish love) was required to achieve CHIM..... Something about stepping outside of reality and seeing that you don't exist = zero sum result.....unless you loved enough (lived for more than yourself) that you could will your persistence even though you don't exist.
It's how Talos did it, anyway.....and I guess the Dwemer were too logical (impartial/detached) for their own good!
exactly! :)
idk, I get the feeling that Vivec lived only for himself but he was pushed into chim by using the tools. Instead of changing the globe like Talos did, Vivec rewrote history so that he had always been a god. Vivec probably: 'I was always a god, I just forgot. Walloping the Heart of Lorcan with this hammer merely reminded me.'
@@Zebulization a very good point and a very big part of the writing in the mod, this is just the opinion of one person, who wasn’t even there when it happened :)
I was never loved as much as i loved so it's gonna be fucking easy to achieve CHIM
@@Zebulization Vivec's love was for himself. Chim requires strong emotion and attachment, a fuel of passion to reconnect with the dream after waking, to dream yourself into existence, and with you, many other things should you so will it. In the case of the living tribunal, their love was mostly selfish. Literal arrogance, to look in the face of unreality and proclaim in spite that you live nonetheless. Or perhaps moreso than pride, it was spite itself. To deny not out of care for oneself, but hatred of the original spirit. To make one's very essence out of insult to existing divinity. Perhaps a cocktail of both. Gods or not, the tribunal were still mortals, and mortal minds, believe it or not, are far more complex than those of gods. Gods have but one domain of authority, and one realm to rule, where mortals oversee interconnected lives, and might walk in any land they please.
During the whole video I was like "I only wanted to ask why are you wearing the weird thing on your head"
It's actually a little scary how much that sounds like the actual voice actor.
Sounds like which voice actor?
@@Loli_lover206 Probably the female high elf voice actor from the game. I do agree it sounds almost identical.
@@dinodudedanny6324 I thought it sounded really good too
I was thinking it was the voice actress for endive from chowder.
it's because it is the one from the game, Ai is pretty good now
When faced with such a realization when receiving divinity, Talos answered:”therefore I am” and the Dwemer answered:”therefore I am not”
You have to consider Tiber septim was a dragonborne like miraak before he was arrogant, hotheaded and ambitious due to his dragon blood and the philosophy it come with it. The dwemer yes had some of these treats but they believed in logic and that everything works by it even the gods ,magic and anu/padomay so the realization that world is but a dream was to much even for them
They didn't zero sum. Plenty to suggest they didn't such as conjuring dwemer automatons etc. people who say the dwemer zero summed is BC the lack of evidence of their being no communication no evidence they ascended like the aedra
@@hal0justcal865 I am surprised that zero sum is a theory that many share. If Dwemer had zero summed, as far as I know - all the evidence of them existing would've disappeared as well, as if they never existed. To me the information points to Dwemer ascending, and because it's not obvious with physical presentation of it like you said - people assume they zero summed.
@@boi3987 it genuinely seems like a cop out answer. As you said. If they zero sum the word dwemer wouldn't exist. Songs about them gone. Their buildings and all evidence of them being on tamriel gone.
@@hal0justcal865 Yessir, and there's cases like Falion whom said that they've met the Dwemer. That is of course not by itself enough to serve as evidence, but combining all the evidence together imo points to them ascending. People for some reason assume that by logic one would come to the conclusion of not existing in the dream that is elder scrolls, but it could be argued that with logic one could also come to the conclusion of them existing, despite it being within a dream, "I think therefore I am". Dwemer logic is much more advanced than that of others, and what is logic but understanding of what we see as randomness of the universe, and the chaos of it? Logic is ever-evolving, and I think it's fair to make an assumption of dwemer ascending to a point where they do not need a body, or a physical presence to "exist". However that'd be contrary to statement of Falion, unless he was on some really strong skooma or something haha. Either way, the point still stands.
Asking my father why he disappeared out of my life
L
Oof, sorry to hear that mate
he's in Oblivion. Damned Dwemer.
Ouch
CHIM, like parenthood, requires Love 😢
That's pretty cool how she is acutely aware of the Question and Answer for Chim, but does not ask it out loud knowing she, and her race, can never answer it the way the Tribunal can. 10/10 attention to detail lore mod
What is the Question and Answer you refer to? Learning lore atm
@@assortedmunchies9281 "Does the Dream still need the Dreamer?" (Since you are a part of the God Head's dream, are you independent, or a figmant?) And the answer is you refuse to disappear, even when confronted with absolute awareness of the fact you are not real at all (I am not real, but I am real, so I am real (Think Neo from the matrix power gain once he really sees the Matrix)). Otherwise your part of the dream wakes up and you cease to exist
@assortedmunchies9281 While they never outright say Who/What the God Head is, it could also be implied that the real-life writers/programmers/modders collectively make the God Head. That means that, when Vivec achieved Chim, he unlocked certain functions of the ES Construction Kit
@Arcane740 So it's being implied that the universe is God Head's Dream?
Also, I've seen it said that Vivec achieved CHIM, but the other two didn't? Also that him and Talos are the only mortals to achieve CHIM I believe? What's your take?
@assortedmunchies9281 Yeah, that all of the Elder Scrolls lore is a dream in some unfathomable beings head. The Elder Scrolls themselves are supposed to be pieces of the God Head's mind itself. The reason Vivec is the only one is because he is the wisdom aspect of Almsivi. Almalexia is focused on strength and power, where Sothas Sil focuses on Logic and knowledge. Not sure if either Alma or Sothas are aware, but both Vivec and Dagoth Ur came to the question and answered in a way that stopped them from Zero Sum
Edit: Talos became so powerful that he touched the barrier and realized he was a figment. He just had the will to stay material
You've got funny words magic lady
So, artificial trancension machine was activated in the heat of battle and an entire species failed the vibe check?
Some people just can’t drink the tea
Lol, that's pretty Lore accurate description of what happened 😂
@@grzegorzflorek5623 I was running around Skyrim and found the book talking about it just a little while ago. Rather interesting read.
Imagine you are in some crazy fucking battle with the Death Commandos from Dune, when your leader turns on the heart of an actual God. The first thing that happens is you find out, essentially, you are an NPC in a video game. You are then asked if you know you don't exist. If you cannot literally will yourself to stay material and say "I exist even though I don't ", everything about you down to the threads of your soul dissappear completely. This happened to all the Dwemer except one and a few ghosts
@Arcane740 Two Dwemer, but the interviewed one cannot confirm. As both were in separate realms.
This mod is looking really good. I can't wait to see how it will turn out.
hell yeah thanks dude
Lorkhan gave love to his followers (the mer can kiss my butt with the whole being tricked, it's their fault if they can't enjoy the little things in life), the Dwemer understood so little about love that in the end, reality itself shattered them. Do you not understand why love is fundamental to achieve enlighment in all religions? Because it's the only force that is capable of keeping you alive in the face of oblivion, in the face of forces uncaring and beyond your understanding. That's the point, if you have nothing and care for nothing, you become nothing. A world of sociopaths, narcisists and greedy bastards, will burn itself into nothing.
err what about Vivec achieving chim? Is Vivec not a narcissist? I thought he only elevated and cared for the dunmer because he felt that they should be his to shape.
@@Zebulization Vivec LOVES himself.
love is literally cringe and intellectual behemoths such as tesla or newton did well for both themselves and the world around them without ever having experienced it
@@spooksy9212 Both of them had love for money and/or science and more likely for themselves, more than likely they also had people, things and ideas they loved. Love is key, to not feel love is to die in mediocrity.
@@Zebulization Vivec loved himself. The Dwemer literally have no concept of it. Despite what Lorkhan tried to achieve he and the rest of the species possessed no concept of love towards eachother or themselves. The only thing the Dwemer strived towards was progress and results. They were completely void of anything other than impartial, practical sadism in order to achieve their goals.
So basically they believed so much into their own bullshit the heart allowed the tribunal to ascend simply because they felt they would over the dwemer logically rationalizing a way to.
In simple terms the tribunal had the resolve to risk and sacrifice anything where the dwemer never would.
The heart of lorkhan responds to heavy risk heavy reward mentality.
Makes sense after hearing out daggoth's explanations;
He believed soo hard into his own bullshit it became reality soo much so that the heart allowed daggoth to will himself back into existence as a physical phantom who was made aware of our world, the real world, the ones who made the game itself.
Thus he was labeled a false dreamer.
haha thats certainly one way to put it, especially when put into context the composition of the tribunal
and afaik Corpus was him spreading his mind around the world - eventually being able to take control of the Dreamer, Ainu, becoming the Dreamer himself if theoretically left unchecked
My personal theory is that when kagronak struck the heart of lorkhan every single deep elf/dwemer the same exact thing happened to them as what happened to that mage during the college of winterhold side quest where are you receive keening except unlike the gem he used the heart of lorkhan could actually hold a soul, and 100% of the deep elf race was imprisoned within the heart of lorkhan. Then when some of its power seeped out into the surrounding rocks forming the heart stones that were later flung from Red mountain and ended up on solstheim at least some of the deep elves were transferred into the heart stones, which would explain why during the side quest line you can do for master nelloth that lets you join house telvani you can find a journal entry from somebody who has a heart stone embedded in her chest because she was neloth's test subject. The diary is split up into 3 books and in one of them she claims to be hearing the voices of the deep elves in her head, which would certainly be possible if some of them were within the heart stone embedded in her chest
Interesting. So the idea is that, because of the Dwemer pursuit of pure cold logic and their detachment, they were incapable of achieving CHIM and so, when the heart of Lorkhan went haywire, they just ceased to exist because of it.
thats what she thinks at least :)
Some sources say that the elder scrolls universe is Anus dream and by archieving CHIM you basically realize this and become the dreamer, turning everything into a lucid dream. The thing is that you also have the ability to just wake up and appearently this is what the dwemer did. They just 'woke up' from the dream and left the universe.
@@lightborn9071 I thought zero summing removed you from the timeline completely though? You never existed and no one remembers you. Since people remember the Dwemer, and their works still exist, is this a third option? Instead of achieving chim or zero summing they are just expelled from that universe?
@@Zebulization No one knows for sure. The thing with the elder scrolls lore is that one can interpret almost anything in many different ways. I think it all could play a significant role.
It does make some sense though. Chim is the process where in the user attempts to realize reality. Normally, a individual can't face that they are a part of the Dreamer's world, they are figments. What Chim is, is the result of realizing this truth, and at the same time maintaining one's reality. To adhere to cold logic means to embrace that truth and through that, also forget what makes them alive. Their feelings are as real as their minds, and just as important in maintaining the Self. To face the Dreamer, the Chim-user needs to at once face reality that their thoughts and emotions at the products of the Dreamer, but at the same time not lose grasp that these thoughts and emotions come from them as well and define them. It's because of this failure to reconcile difference, thrust well before being ready into Chim, that the Dwemer failed. They literally erased themselves from all planes. Talos Succeeded however, maintaining himself whilst realizing the Dream, and this is why Cyrodil is a temperate place, not a hot jungle. He modified the dream, and even now so to speak, is a god. This is in essence, making him at once a Aedra, and not a Aedra. he is..more. On a level like Akatosh.
So the dwemer could not handle being in a "dream" and being unreal so they disappeared? While those dunmer gods and talos were able to believe in the dream?
basically, yes :)
I always thought that zero summing wouldn't just erase you from existence, I thought it meant that you _never_ existed in the first place.
@@luckyabdurrahman1085 That might be true in our own Reality, but the ruins, Falmer, and *piles of dust* say otherwise in the Elder Scrolls.
@@luckyabdurrahman1085 everyone thinks, but nobody really knows, not even her ;)
@@luckyabdurrahman1085 I kind of think that they not only failed to achieve chim, but that they didn't even fail properly. I suspect that they didn't zero sum, they were simply ejected from their universe during that moment. That is why history didn't forget them.
This really shows not only how absolutely amazing Elder Scrolls lore is but that it’s fanbase is equally amazing.
THE MUSIC IS SO GREAT AND FITTING
Knowing the kind of "question" CHIM requires an answer to means she was more than just "aware" of Kagranaks research- FASCINATING I can't wait for this mod : D
The background music is amazing, it really fits the mood.
I wasn’t certain it was AI generated voice until the line breaks started standing out. Well done.
*I know how my people answered, even without knowing.*
God bless whoever wrote this dialogue, that phrase stuck with me.
So the Dwemer are essentially the Cult Mechanicus from Warhammer 40k. I am Sold.
Haha yup
I would say that the clockwork city is MUCH more similar to the mechanicus.
I absolutely cannot wait for this mod. Looks epic!
I really hope they hire Michael Kirkbride again at some point. He’s still working, and his ideas are a huge part of what made Morrowind unforgettable.
He's a jerk though. Super hard to work with
That's a far better explanation of what happened to them then any of the popular myths like being fused with the Numidium.
The amount of work you put into the dialouge here is unmatched by the many mods ive encountered over the years
I think this mod in general is the closest we'll ever get to understanding why the dwemer disappeared to begin with. You can see clues literally everywhere in Skyrim itself. Tonal architecture, the use of aetherium, certain soul gems having sound modifications that seem custom made to manipulate matter on those scales. What I find ironic is that logic and mathematics ended up being their Achilles heel in that regard. I can't wait for this mod to go live! Liked and subbed.🥰
shes actually just one character in a larger labyrinth of Boethia's realm :) I tried my best to stay as lore accurate as I could to the idea of a dwemer making their best guess at what happened, since ultimately she cant really know :D
In a universe where gods are scientifically proven to be real and has a tangible impact on the world, being an atheist is quite literally the most foolish thing you can do
@@Watchmanskey If I recall correctly, they weren't really atheist just thought they were better and could achieve the same divinity without the divine, but I could be off the mark on that or misremembering
In Morrowind, there's a telvani wizard who, if you bring him this dwemer book to translate, will explain the dwemer destroyed themselves or were destroyed by the gods after trying to create a god of their own with their technology.
This is so sick. This will turn out amazing
The dwemer kind of reminded me of a scene from Planescape: Torment where the main character is in a plane where thought affects reality. They can debate with a man and convince him that he doesn't exist, upon which the man promptly disappears. His arguments were just too good, and the man's nonexistance was the only logical conclusion. I feel like that's how it felt for the dwemer. Like "We have definite evidence that we're not real" They were too logical for their own good.
They couldnt have zero summed or they wouldnt exist, ever. Skyrims quest with keening proves they became the flesh of the numedium.
Lorkhan: You're aren't.
Dwemer: Entirely logical. Bye
Imagine discovering your entire existence is basically a lie.
"Like when the dream no longer needs the dreamer."
So, the Dwemer became aware of the Dream and decided to break the 4th wall and question existence itself which ultimately led to their downfall.
That's like the rare moments when you become aware of your own dream during sleep (not speaking of lucid dreaming) and right the moment you reach that level of awareness, you wake up in your bed.
The only thing about lucid dreams like that is that sometimes I've woken up and then chosen to go back to sleep, managing to pick up the dream where I left off. I wonder if there's ever been someone who almost zero sums and then just reverts to a state before Chim. Almost like a conscious defense mechanism of rejecting the truth and saving themselves.
There'd be no way of knowing for sure in character because obviously they wouldn't remember the truth, otherwise they wouldn't have escaped their fate.
@@bullethail3875 I've had three dreams like this where I would be half lucid and the moment I reach lucidity, I feel so aware and something in my dream happens that it just erases it completely. I'm conscious that it happens, but every time I try to remember what was said or done, my brain actively fights back against it.
One especially was a nightmare where I was talking about something ontological with a weird flesh moon and it said something that my brain actively scrubbed out the information that even though I woke up, I was unable to recall it as much as I tried thinking about it. It wasn't forgetting, I feel like I was actively blocking out information.
Whatever it was, it was self defense indeed.
Dwemer: "Math. Science. Logic. Gods and superstitions are for the lesser primates!"
Kagrenac: "Hey guys, it's kinda real and...we're not."
Dwemer: "Well, fu-"
Dam that’s exactly how I want Dwemer to sounds like. Well written too
ElevenLabs being able to capture those subtle shifts in tone is what makes this especially trippy for me.
Simple "we fucked around and found out after creating god"
Imagine big dwarven research mommy stepping on you with high tech metal boots 🥵🥵🥵
my guy...
Seek Christ.
Bro really down bad
Dang these weird female comments
When can Skyrim be less lady and more for everyone
It's more than just hot females for goodness sake
@@chase1146 call me a spelunker because I’m going for that deep cave musky dwemussy
Love it. The way I always saw it, its a lucid dreamer effect. You either become a lucid dreamer or you "wake up". Once you know its a dream you only ever have those two options. It's funny though, both the Dwemer and the Chimer/Dunmer are races with egos. The Chimer/Dunmer's religious ego that led them to think themselves to be equal to the gods and the Dwemer's (intelligent) ego that led them to think themselves to be (potentially) better than the gods but it was the Dwemer's own (intelligent) ego that eventually led them to ultimately become Zero Summed.
Intelligence is a blessing but also a curse u don't want to know about knowledge which marks u as nothing but an entity of an eternal dream
This dialogue and voice acting is incredible... I gotta give this mod a try
Dwemer + Morrowind... I'm sold!!!!
NGL I thought this was no man's sky the whole time before I read the comments/description.
I'll just remind you: TES world is in shape of the Wheel.
And it's a dream.
How long will the Wheel turn?
How long the dreamer will sleep?
What happens when he wakes up?
What happened to Anu and Padamai?
Or smth like that idk I'm not deep lore master.
Wow, the voice acting and quality is very good.
Its AI, if you pay attention to the breaks it becomes more obvious.
@@dragonace119 It's still very good and only getting better as new models release. Mods like this is one reason i'm exited for AI.
@@aartemiswhite Same, makes getting decently voiced mods much more common which I'm all for.
God..I love Elevenlabs.
Good job
“Where’s your beard?”
Usually custom voice mods are very bad, but this is great and if I didn't know it was a mod I would definitely think this would have been part of the game, great work!
Achieving lucidity of the dream then trying to control it instead of going with the flow. Oh you Dwemer... 🙄
This is actually incredible. It's so well-written, it's insane. The beautiful voice acting, hell, the imagination of this entirety, of the dream, is just... truly peak. I am floored.
Damn. Whoever wrote the dialogue for this went to town with a thesaurus
That voice acting is phenomenal
i'm pretty sure it's AI. Pay attention to intonation and weird pauses
I thought this was a real voice actor until I saw ElevenLabs in the description. Impressive.
This dialogue is masterfully crafted. Very well written
She sounds like someone of great intellect
"Oh, okay."
right
Wait, did she just burn the Thalmor? I like the sass.
This looks really amazing. That was professional-grade voice acting!
This is exactly how I see them explaining this too lol, always thought that the panic for more power was what did them in. People think they’ve left to pursue something greater or found something, no, simply panic and want for power
ego and fear are really big motivators :)
good writing, love it
The idea of the dream has always been so cool to me, the realization of what reality really is leads to non - existence, but achieving a balance between living a lie and knowing the truth grants you all powerfulness in said lie, in which you are still ultimately obligated to live
Oh this is damn cool! I’m DEFINITELY downloading this mod when it comes out. Keep up the great work!
This is the single best piece of writing and voice acting in any mod for any game that I've ever seen..........Holy shit
I like how the dwemer talk faster than regular npc suggesting higher intellect
I thought this was actually voiced until I read the discription
That voice acting is amazing! Bravo!
Reminds me of the blah blah blah by the Architect in the Matrix.
This was 1000x better than I was ever expecting.
This voice acting is amazing.
Little did we know that the skynet moment of chatGPT was going to come when they roleplayed a skyrim race of automatons.
The voice acting is so good I thought it was part of the game I might have missed
Okay I know someone else is thinking it but like.. would their kid not be the strongest person in Tamrials lore? I mean they'd be Dwemer and Dragonborne
The lie is existence. It is a dream, dwemer understanding logic and reason alone, when confronted with this truth, accept it and "wake up" and disappeared from the dream.
This is actually amazing
Sounds like they got their math wrong.
A dwarf attempt that was never going to be a dwarf success
@@roadraider6266 Damn...
Fantastic work.
Was expecting an answer like; “So we wouldn’t stand around while your kind asks stupid questions.”
Dagoth Ur with his Reverse CHIM standing over in the corner.
Reality: "Are you Real or a Dream?"
Dwemer: "I'm Real."
Also Dwemer: *ceases to exist*
Why is her voice acting so good?!
dwemer technology!
Kinda genius.
dude this elevenlabs shit is going crazy, i went like a minute and a half without realizing it was ai generated
" This broke me, the uhhn. . . question thing and the Believe in The Lie part, that broke me I . . . I am done. "
So basically, in pursuit of a power that would rival the Divinity of the gods and the Th'Um of the Dragons, they turned towards "Logic and science". Hence the reason why the Dwermer were far advanced compared to all other races. However while doing so they kept falling back on the old magics of both things. Which is why their machines and automotans can contain Soul Crystals whenever you sometimes defeat them.
In any case, this pursuit of power through "Logic" would be their downfall as the defined "Logic" they invisoned would rival Divinity, wasn't ready or it wasn't finished. Resulting in the activation of the Heart making all Dwermer in the blast radius, disapear from existence itself as their "Logical technology" failed them.
I don't think the Dwemer zero summed. It's possible, but I find it more likely that they basically "became" the Numidium.
They didn't zero sum or else we wouldn't be talking about them. To zero sum is to never have existed. There's be no ruins. Nothing. Only yagrim and what he built and did would still exist
This is like the sodium chloride thing all over again
Honestly, if this wasn't a mod, I'd say the voice acting fits in vanilla so well.
That was ASTOUNDINGLY lore accurate.
to understand that you are simultaneously a mere fragment of a dream, yet also the dreamer itself would be like if one of the characters in your dream became lucid independently and separate from your own sense of self
I bet the broadcast was:
Divide by zero
They went full inception and played a tone which extinguished themselves for following the logical path to its ultimate end. They don’t exist, nothing exist.
Surprisingly awesome. As a self-appointed lore-wh*** of the Ninth degree, I approve of this.
Kudos to the guy for making all that dialogue for me to completely ignore and cut her head off for cool shiny thing.
The way she looks, and speaks, makes her technically a techpriest :D
Aw damn I didn't realize it was a mod I was thinking in all the time I played Skyrim, I missed this quest.
In short: If you won't believe in the dream, the dream won't believe in you.
Wheels Of Lull is still one of tr best Skyrim mods ever put to paper. Its crazy how it starts as such a dumb premise and then just...becomes a fucking masterpiece immediately after its start.
Could use a bit more spacing between some of the lines but definetely one of the best voice acting I've heard from a mod
*Dwemer ascended and learn the truth*
Dwemer: Oh, so logically all of us are imaginations, we do not exist.
*Dwemer fade away*