this video is awesome, it brings up interesting points about where the neutral alignment fails and its paralels to the real world which i hadnt thought of
Holy shit that was fantastic man, particularly the discussion surrounding the neutral alignment. Totally worth the wait and Im excited for your next upload.
Awesome work, really enjoyed your previous videos and think this one is even better. It's great to see videos on these games taking into account the source material that Atlus (most likely) drew from for their mythological figures and actually laying out things in the context of how they relate to (or differ from) their real world counterparts. I think there's a really good balance between this historical context given and your own analysis and interpretation of how this relates to the game and what's present there. It's good to see criticism of how the neutral route in most of these games kind of fetishizes the status quo. It's something I noticed more and more as I played more of the series and while I still love the games it's one of those things that really breaks down the more closely you examine it and what it's actually trying to say and kind of paints a bad picture, though preserving the status quo is an overused theme in all media SMT just really hammers it in more than most. It's one of the reasons Strange Journey was so refreshing since it felt like it had actual in-game criticism of it that's lacking in most of the titles, even if it was still pretty subdued. If you're to do future Nocturne content I'd also recommend considering the game in both its original form, minus Maniax content, versus the later releases. I feel that if you exclude the Amala labyrinth and story additions that came along with it, as Nocturne was originally published, it does lend to a very different tone and story. And as much as I enjoy that content from a gameplay and art perspective it feels at times at odds with the game narratively, especially in the way it tries to shoehorn the whole meta-law and meta-chaos into the pre-existing reason framework and all the SMT1 and 2 fanservice that was pumped into the game (of which base Nocturne is notably lacking) to try and win back Japanese fans that were not really sold on how different Nocturne was from the previous entries. I don't think it would change much of your interpretation here but it can be a good way of looking at the game in general. For all the faults of the remaster I appreciate that it finally gave non-Japanese fans a way to experience that version of the game.
I'll probably do another Nocturne video at some point, but imo the issue with trying to discuss Nocturne in those terms (OG vs Maniax/Chronicles) is that I don't think it's clear which story/thematic elements of the rerelease were planned for the original, or what they changed when having to scrap some of it. Not to mention, if there was differences in the vision between Hashino and Yamai. So I'm not really comfortable making a video about it, because it would be too much conjecture. I appreciate the in-depth comment though, glad you enjoyed it.
It's interesting because (to my knowledge) Nocturne is the only SMT for which the rerelease added a new route leading to a "worse" ending instead of a "better" one. It's amusing to imagine the alt universe in which Nocturne is like SJ and the "Freedom" route was added the enhanced edition.
I'm pretty happy with some of the footage use in this vid so just saying I absolutely appreciate any critique or opinions on the editing even if it's not exactly very flashy in these types of videos
Your editing is professional and engaging. For me, the only thing I can really say is there's too much eye candy to take it all in when KC is laying down the historical context. I am a diehard nocturne fan boy though. I have watched buffmaister's fiend compilation at least 10 times beginning to end willingly. I think I am going to watch it again right now.
Forgive me if I have any misconceptions about Christian doctrine, as I’m not Christian nor am I super well versed in Christianity, but from my own knowledge, I believe that the Freedom Ending has many interesting parallels to Christianity and is meant to represent a similar philosophy. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I thought it too interesting to not share. On a surface level, the game begins with Yuko, the Maiden (a stand-in for the Virgin Mary), bringing the Demifiend into the Vortex World though a miraculous Conception, if you’ll pardon the pun. From this point on, the Demifiend is born, a human who is also a demon, or god if you prefer. The Demifiend wanders the Vortex World, fighting and destroying demons. If the player chooses to follow the path of Freedom, Demifiend is faced with temptations, the Reasons, but resists them, and resists Lucifer as well. Demifiend is given the unnamed reason by Aradia, who in this metaphor would be a stand-in for the Holy Spirit. He is essentially a Messianic figure, who at the end of the game faces Kagatsuchi, and, in his words, “forgives the worlds past sins to pursue an ideal.” He defeats Kagatsuchi, sets the world back to how it was, and puts his faith in humanity to change itself for the better. I feel that the overlap is enough to say that it was intentional on some level. Obviously there are creative liberties taken, as God and Lucifer have essentially switched roles, but the point remains the same. The Freedom Ending is about bearing pain and suffering, carrying the cross and walking the path of thorns, to make life meaningful. Despite freedom bringing rise to darkeness, and risking destruction, it is still worth it for humanity to have free will. There are plenty more parallels I could mention, such as the Vortex World being mostly desert outside the urban areas, referring to Jesus wandering the desert, but these are more likely to just be coincidence. I can’t say for certain that the Freedom Ending was meant to parallel Christianity, but I think it’s at least likely that it was a partial inspiration. Now, speaking on the broader themes of Freedom as a whole, I only see Freedom as a return to status quo on the surface. As Yuko states, “you have to change yourself in order to change the world.” I don’t think this is to say that external change is not important, but that if one wishes to change the world, then you must have changed yourself first. The other Reasons were flawed because they were made by flawed people, which is why all three are so hypocritical. Hikawa wants to end conflict and desire, and creates conflict in order to create a world he desires. Chiaki wants a world for the strong, but she herself is weak, and only survived because she was pitied. Isamu wants solitude, but he is a coward who uses others to get what he wants They are all motivated by selfishness to some extent. I suppose you could argue that Demifiends wish to restore the old world is selfish as well, but unlike the other endings, bringing humanity back is a positive for everyone involved, and Demifiend does this fully knowing that he will suffer for it, as Aradia says. Freedom is not a necessarily a conservative ideology, because by simply allowing humanity to have free will, it means that humanity will inevitably change, one way or the other. Humanity will forever shift between law and chaos, and that is a good thing, because life is not the destination, but the journey. A world eternally ruled by law will be eternally stagnant, and a world eternally ruled by Chaos will be too chaotic to ever amount to anything. Both sides are vital, for the world to exist and move. I think it fits well into the Buddhist symbolism Nocturne often uses.
I think the Christian themes in Nocturne you mentioned is an interesting take, but I'm skeptical of it being the actual intent considering the staff rarely if ever frame standard Christian themes positively. I think it would make more sense if it was meant to be Gnostic since Kagutsuchi is meant to be another side of YHVH and Demifiend recieves his power from Lucifer (demonic "energy" is also literally referred to as knowledge in later games). Not to mention, you could relate the 3 Reasons to the three times Jesus was tempted. 3 is very a popular sacred number as well though so that's probably a stretch. That said, Kaneko has alluded to Demifiend running in the desert having been inspired by the Red Hot Chili Peppers song "Californication." It's true that "you have to wait to change the world" is not necessarily conservative, the issue is how it's weaponized to that end. The purpose is not actually to tell people to better themselves, it's to tell them to not do anything until they've made some ill-defined progress and likely the progress they want you to make is towards their own viewpoint. I think this is definitely the case given the context of the alignments in Shin Megami Tensei. You mention the example of Law and Chaos as a cycle and how humanity swings back and forth between them, and this is true. However, that's just natural, it's not a *good* thing. Neutral in this light represents the enlightenment one obtains when they see past the illusions. That's why YHVH (or some version of him) is often shown as presiding over the cycle, because it's meant to be a Gnostic theme where the Demiurge is holding back humanity and why a neutral figure like Stephen is literally a boddhisatva in-universe. Thanks for the comment though, I really appreciate that my content is making people think about the games. :)
@@KidCapes Thanks for the reply. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t think the message of the game was to be overtly Christian, but rather it uses some of the common trappings and symbolism of Christianity to make its point. I’m not super well versed in Gnosticism either, but Kagatsuchi/YHVH being a stand in for the Demiurge makes sense to me. I think the game both uses as well as subverts Christian imagery. The Freedom Route portrays Demifiend as a messianic, Christ-like figure while still having him align somewhat with Lucifer’s ideals, while True Demon portrays him with imagery that is more commonly associated with the Anti-Christ. Perhaps this is the reason that the fiends are beings more associated with God during Revelation, as a way of switching the imagery you would expect around. You could think of Freedom Demifiend as Chaotic Good/Neutral, and True Demon Demifiend as Chaotic Neutral/Evil. I don’t think that the point of Freedom was to say that you have to wait to change the world, I think the point is that by changing and improving yourself, you are then more capable of changing the world. You could take Hikawa, Isamu, Chiaki, and even Yuko as counterpoints to this line of thinking. Whatever problems they identify in life, rather than take responsibility and attempt to handle those problems in a productive way, instead blame those problems on society or the world as a whole. They become zealots for their Gods in hopes that they’ll solve their problems and change the world for them, so they don’t actually have to do any work or accept any of their own flaws. By following TDE and Lucifer’s ideology, you correctly identify the problems of the world, but this frame of mind is ultimately reactionary and destructive. Lucifer may correctly identify YHVH as the tyrant he is, but he doesn’t really offer any coherent alternative. The cycle of Law and Chaos is natural, and you could make arguments for or against that being good if there were an alternative, but there isn’t. Without God, there will inevitably be a power vacuum, which is something touched upon in SMT V. So who gets that power over the world? Lucifer? Demifiend? Without the cycle of Law and Chaos, you are left with three options: Eternal Law, Eternal Chaos, or Nothingness. There is no alternative that anyone can point to other than a vague “better world.” Freedom puts the power to decide the future of the world in the collective hands of humanity. The world will forever fluctuate between Law and Chaos, and I would argue that is a good thing, because what humanity needs will change alongside the cycle. I’ve never been too keen on Buddhist ideas of reaching enlightenment by seeing past cycles and duality. I think true enlightenment is embracing cycles and duality, and understanding the need for contrast, but that’s just me. There’s plenty more discussion to be had, but I think the undeniable fact is that Freedom and TDE are meant to be parallels of each other, and convey similar, yet contrasting ideas. As I was writing this reply, it dawned on me that the Lady in Black has the same English and Japanese VAs as Yuko, and they share a very similar design as well. What I will say, is that while the Christian symbolism may not have been intentional, I believe that the Freedom Ending best conveys the themes and ideas that the developers intended. While I can appreciate TDE as a kind of “What If?” scenario, if it were meant to be the embodiment of the games themes, I think it would have been included in the initial release of the game. Once again, thanks for the reply. It’s crazy that a game that’s nearly two decades old can still generate philosophical discussion like this.
I have been watching a lot of your videos and I really appreciate them. Thank you for making them, I appreciate the historical and cultural contexts that you add to the discussions. Admittedly, the idea that Neutral being 'supporting the status quo' hadn't occurred to me. It really changes a lot of how to look at some of, potentially all of, the neutral endings. I'm looking forward to more videos of yours, thank you for discussing Shin Megami Tensei games!
I don't fully agree with your reading on the Freedom ending, I always saw it as enabling Yuko to live how she wants without being held down by others (and that this is true for everyone, being called "Freedom" and all). Anything is possible in the world of Freedom and it isn't 100% the same as hitting the reset button as you can see with how the protagonist and his friends meet up at Yoyogi Park and Hijiri isn't there anymore. The pro-status quo/conservatism argument you have toward many Neutral endings is an interesting one though, it definitely gives me stuff to think about. Really good video overall
Agreed. You have to consider in mind that if this were not in the context of outside powers SMT often has, Neutral would be kinda objectively the right choice unless you would somehow genuinely want such a drastic change on society that other sides offer. It's the common implication that Neutral endings are just delaying the inevitable in the long run and that the cycle of demonic invasions and clashes of forces beyond humanity's powers is, in most of the Megaten games in general, never truly escapable, making it reliant on the successors to carry the torch of humanism and suffer through an apocalypse every once in a while. That is, if the Neutral endings in some games even manage to restore society back to what it previously was. I still find Kid's reading a bit too cynically dismissive of Neutral's upsides and Yuko's development, but anyone clearly biased towards Neutral would likely only give the most expected reading. For the Freedom ending not being a 100% reset, I think Kid acknowledges this but considers the fact that it's very much unclear how much of the Vortex World has been kept inside the humans (and especially the Demi-fiend), making it highly questionable if anything has really changed in the grand scheme of things.
I would agree what you're describing is the intent of Freedom, but I don't think we can stop looking at it there considering the philosophical/political subtext of the game. There's nuance between how the text is framed and it's actual events, so to speak. Part of the reason I think it's important to talk about the conservative themes of neutral is for this reason, since Freedom is "freedom" and this version of Tokyo is meant to reflect the modern world. Nocturne creates the implication that the world as it is right now needs to be preserved because it contains some divinely "free" aspect (literally in how Freedom is juxtaposed with the other Reasons).
Neutral definitely has upsides, but the thing about this is that this series is fiction. The framing of the story and the dynamics of the themes were designed by ATLUS. People have who have their own thoughts, goals, and political opinions, so we can't just leave the discussion there. If something happens, we have to ask WHY does it happen. Beyond whether you agree with them or not politically, I think it also just lends itself to more bland writing since they're pretty clearly biased towards (or against) certain alignments when the entire point of the alignment system is to get the player to think beyond "good" and "evil".
You have a lot more up than I realized. I subscribed a few weeks ago but never really looked at how much you have uploaded. I just keep getting suggestions and am pleasantly surprised to see a video I haven't watched yet. Can I offer some constructive criticism? You should take more time to say what you have to say, there's no rush. The stuff you talk about is hard to follow just by virtue of context, add to that that the visual aspect is really engaging and it can be hard to take in what you're saying. Just my two cents! One way or the other, your videos are some of the only stuff I can really enjoy on youtube without the aid of thc 😂
@@KidCapes I get it though, nothing bad about it, it's a sign of being passionate about sharing what you've discerned with others. Don't take it too personally if it seemed insulting as that wasn't the intention, and no, you didn't really come off that way with your reply, it's projection of my inability to take and therefore give criticism most likely, and paranoia. I can't really claim to have any idea what it's like to even produce any part of a video that isn't half-assed and has more than single digit views. Sorry to ramble, I like writing sometimes. When I feed a lot of words into my head I start to get verbal.
I hope you dont mind multiple comments. The info in this vid is food for thought. I still really think yuko and the lady in black are the same being. I know its a stretch, and will be called "mental gymnastics," but if "yuriko" is the cannon name for the, uhh, temptress? in smt 1, they are even close phonetically and in pronunciation in romaji. The lady in black seems to be at least similar to smt 1 yuriko in her role in the narrative. Add to that what you say about ariade forcing herself on lucifer, my thought that chiaki was intended to be the "heroine" spurned via fate (at the risk of being sexist, baal avatar is a cat lady ultimately, is she not? Are the demons accompanying her in her last battle a coincidence? she can command angels, so why two cats?) by the hero being forced into what canonically would be the chaos path (by yuko essentially, ESPECIALLY if she and the lady are one in the same) and some other stuff i can't remember right now, I'm somewhat more convinced as such even if it's an unpopular opinion among smt intellectuals. it creates a lot of inversions of the tropes from previous installments of the series that seem to me to line up, still having all the same plot/narrative elements the series is known for. Sorry if its confusing, it makes sense to me though. Why Atlus would do all of that, i don't know, other than they're dedicated to their art.
Yeah ... That is why i despise the neutral route in games like SMT strange journey. The game tries to push it as the superior alternative to Mem aleph and Mastema, but at the end of the day you really saved no one. In the beginning of the game it is shown how terribile the world has become because of humanity. The sins of humans caused the wrath of the demons and of the angels. By defeating both Mem and Mastema, you are just dooming humanity aniway, cause the world is still on the verge of collapse. There is no hope left at all, It's no happy ending. Even the Chaos and Law routes in the remake are more desirable outcomes than the neutral route, since they present some sort of hope in their own way. A Battle royale Is literally more enticing than the neutral route... Bah
9:33 which text is this referring to? The 19th century one or the renaissance one that started the witch hunts? Anyway, very good video. I think it clearly lays out one of the major problems with neutral. I also think the stuff with Freedom being an "unnamed reason" ties nicely to how neutral wants to represent itself as a non-ideology, when really it is an ideology, just without a clear image. After all, Freedom is, as you say, opposed to a teleological image of society. But the act of asserting it onto the world/society is just as much of a forceful act on how everyone should exist as something that chaos or law do. That is, it's still an act of determination, just as much as any Reason ending.
this video is awesome, it brings up interesting points about where the neutral alignment fails and its paralels to the real world which i hadnt thought of
Holy shit that was fantastic man, particularly the discussion surrounding the neutral alignment. Totally worth the wait and Im excited for your next upload.
Awesome work, really enjoyed your previous videos and think this one is even better. It's great to see videos on these games taking into account the source material that Atlus (most likely) drew from for their mythological figures and actually laying out things in the context of how they relate to (or differ from) their real world counterparts. I think there's a really good balance between this historical context given and your own analysis and interpretation of how this relates to the game and what's present there.
It's good to see criticism of how the neutral route in most of these games kind of fetishizes the status quo. It's something I noticed more and more as I played more of the series and while I still love the games it's one of those things that really breaks down the more closely you examine it and what it's actually trying to say and kind of paints a bad picture, though preserving the status quo is an overused theme in all media SMT just really hammers it in more than most. It's one of the reasons Strange Journey was so refreshing since it felt like it had actual in-game criticism of it that's lacking in most of the titles, even if it was still pretty subdued.
If you're to do future Nocturne content I'd also recommend considering the game in both its original form, minus Maniax content, versus the later releases. I feel that if you exclude the Amala labyrinth and story additions that came along with it, as Nocturne was originally published, it does lend to a very different tone and story. And as much as I enjoy that content from a gameplay and art perspective it feels at times at odds with the game narratively, especially in the way it tries to shoehorn the whole meta-law and meta-chaos into the pre-existing reason framework and all the SMT1 and 2 fanservice that was pumped into the game (of which base Nocturne is notably lacking) to try and win back Japanese fans that were not really sold on how different Nocturne was from the previous entries. I don't think it would change much of your interpretation here but it can be a good way of looking at the game in general.
For all the faults of the remaster I appreciate that it finally gave non-Japanese fans a way to experience that version of the game.
I'll probably do another Nocturne video at some point, but imo the issue with trying to discuss Nocturne in those terms (OG vs Maniax/Chronicles) is that I don't think it's clear which story/thematic elements of the rerelease were planned for the original, or what they changed when having to scrap some of it. Not to mention, if there was differences in the vision between Hashino and Yamai. So I'm not really comfortable making a video about it, because it would be too much conjecture. I appreciate the in-depth comment though, glad you enjoyed it.
It's interesting because (to my knowledge) Nocturne is the only SMT for which the rerelease added a new route leading to a "worse" ending instead of a "better" one. It's amusing to imagine the alt universe in which Nocturne is like SJ and the "Freedom" route was added the enhanced edition.
I'm pretty happy with some of the footage use in this vid so just saying I absolutely appreciate any critique or opinions on the editing even if it's not exactly very flashy in these types of videos
also yea the vid was pretty cool
Of course the video was cool, it was edited by someone almost as amazing as myself
Your editing is professional and engaging. For me, the only thing I can really say is there's too much eye candy to take it all in when KC is laying down the historical context. I am a diehard nocturne fan boy though. I have watched buffmaister's fiend compilation at least 10 times beginning to end willingly. I think I am going to watch it again right now.
Forgive me if I have any misconceptions about Christian doctrine, as I’m not Christian nor am I super well versed in Christianity, but from my own knowledge, I believe that the Freedom Ending has many interesting parallels to Christianity and is meant to represent a similar philosophy. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I thought it too interesting to not share.
On a surface level, the game begins with Yuko, the Maiden (a stand-in for the Virgin Mary), bringing the Demifiend into the Vortex World though a miraculous Conception, if you’ll pardon the pun. From this point on, the Demifiend is born, a human who is also a demon, or god if you prefer. The Demifiend wanders the Vortex World, fighting and destroying demons. If the player chooses to follow the path of Freedom, Demifiend is faced with temptations, the Reasons, but resists them, and resists Lucifer as well. Demifiend is given the unnamed reason by Aradia, who in this metaphor would be a stand-in for the Holy Spirit. He is essentially a Messianic figure, who at the end of the game faces Kagatsuchi, and, in his words, “forgives the worlds past sins to pursue an ideal.” He defeats Kagatsuchi, sets the world back to how it was, and puts his faith in humanity to change itself for the better.
I feel that the overlap is enough to say that it was intentional on some level. Obviously there are creative liberties taken, as God and Lucifer have essentially switched roles, but the point remains the same. The Freedom Ending is about bearing pain and suffering, carrying the cross and walking the path of thorns, to make life meaningful. Despite freedom bringing rise to darkeness, and risking destruction, it is still worth it for humanity to have free will.
There are plenty more parallels I could mention, such as the Vortex World being mostly desert outside the urban areas, referring to Jesus wandering the desert, but these are more likely to just be coincidence. I can’t say for certain that the Freedom Ending was meant to parallel Christianity, but I think it’s at least likely that it was a partial inspiration.
Now, speaking on the broader themes of Freedom as a whole, I only see Freedom as a return to status quo on the surface. As Yuko states, “you have to change yourself in order to change the world.” I don’t think this is to say that external change is not important, but that if one wishes to change the world, then you must have changed yourself first. The other Reasons were flawed because they were made by flawed people, which is why all three are so hypocritical. Hikawa wants to end conflict and desire, and creates conflict in order to create a world he desires. Chiaki wants a world for the strong, but she herself is weak, and only survived because she was pitied. Isamu wants solitude, but he is a coward who uses others to get what he wants They are all motivated by selfishness to some extent.
I suppose you could argue that Demifiends wish to restore the old world is selfish as well, but unlike the other endings, bringing humanity back is a positive for everyone involved, and Demifiend does this fully knowing that he will suffer for it, as Aradia says. Freedom is not a necessarily a conservative ideology, because by simply allowing humanity to have free will, it means that humanity will inevitably change, one way or the other. Humanity will forever shift between law and chaos, and that is a good thing, because life is not the destination, but the journey. A world eternally ruled by law will be eternally stagnant, and a world eternally ruled by Chaos will be too chaotic to ever amount to anything. Both sides are vital, for the world to exist and move. I think it fits well into the Buddhist symbolism Nocturne often uses.
I think the Christian themes in Nocturne you mentioned is an interesting take, but I'm skeptical of it being the actual intent considering the staff rarely if ever frame standard Christian themes positively. I think it would make more sense if it was meant to be Gnostic since Kagutsuchi is meant to be another side of YHVH and Demifiend recieves his power from Lucifer (demonic "energy" is also literally referred to as knowledge in later games). Not to mention, you could relate the 3 Reasons to the three times Jesus was tempted. 3 is very a popular sacred number as well though so that's probably a stretch. That said, Kaneko has alluded to Demifiend running in the desert having been inspired by the Red Hot Chili Peppers song "Californication."
It's true that "you have to wait to change the world" is not necessarily conservative, the issue is how it's weaponized to that end. The purpose is not actually to tell people to better themselves, it's to tell them to not do anything until they've made some ill-defined progress and likely the progress they want you to make is towards their own viewpoint. I think this is definitely the case given the context of the alignments in Shin Megami Tensei. You mention the example of Law and Chaos as a cycle and how humanity swings back and forth between them, and this is true. However, that's just natural, it's not a *good* thing. Neutral in this light represents the enlightenment one obtains when they see past the illusions. That's why YHVH (or some version of him) is often shown as presiding over the cycle, because it's meant to be a Gnostic theme where the Demiurge is holding back humanity and why a neutral figure like Stephen is literally a boddhisatva in-universe.
Thanks for the comment though, I really appreciate that my content is making people think about the games. :)
@@KidCapes Thanks for the reply. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t think the message of the game was to be overtly Christian, but rather it uses some of the common trappings and symbolism of Christianity to make its point. I’m not super well versed in Gnosticism either, but Kagatsuchi/YHVH being a stand in for the Demiurge makes sense to me. I think the game both uses as well as subverts Christian imagery. The Freedom Route portrays Demifiend as a messianic, Christ-like figure while still having him align somewhat with Lucifer’s ideals, while True Demon portrays him with imagery that is more commonly associated with the Anti-Christ. Perhaps this is the reason that the fiends are beings more associated with God during Revelation, as a way of switching the imagery you would expect around. You could think of Freedom Demifiend as Chaotic Good/Neutral, and True Demon Demifiend as Chaotic Neutral/Evil.
I don’t think that the point of Freedom was to say that you have to wait to change the world, I think the point is that by changing and improving yourself, you are then more capable of changing the world. You could take Hikawa, Isamu, Chiaki, and even Yuko as counterpoints to this line of thinking. Whatever problems they identify in life, rather than take responsibility and attempt to handle those problems in a productive way, instead blame those problems on society or the world as a whole. They become zealots for their Gods in hopes that they’ll solve their problems and change the world for them, so they don’t actually have to do any work or accept any of their own flaws.
By following TDE and Lucifer’s ideology, you correctly identify the problems of the world, but this frame of mind is ultimately reactionary and destructive. Lucifer may correctly identify YHVH as the tyrant he is, but he doesn’t really offer any coherent alternative. The cycle of Law and Chaos is natural, and you could make arguments for or against that being good if there were an alternative, but there isn’t. Without God, there will inevitably be a power vacuum, which is something touched upon in SMT V. So who gets that power over the world? Lucifer? Demifiend? Without the cycle of Law and Chaos, you are left with three options: Eternal Law, Eternal Chaos, or Nothingness. There is no alternative that anyone can point to other than a vague “better world.” Freedom puts the power to decide the future of the world in the collective hands of humanity. The world will forever fluctuate between Law and Chaos, and I would argue that is a good thing, because what humanity needs will change alongside the cycle. I’ve never been too keen on Buddhist ideas of reaching enlightenment by seeing past cycles and duality. I think true enlightenment is embracing cycles and duality, and understanding the need for contrast, but that’s just me.
There’s plenty more discussion to be had, but I think the undeniable fact is that Freedom and TDE are meant to be parallels of each other, and convey similar, yet contrasting ideas. As I was writing this reply, it dawned on me that the Lady in Black has the same English and Japanese VAs as Yuko, and they share a very similar design as well. What I will say, is that while the Christian symbolism may not have been intentional, I believe that the Freedom Ending best conveys the themes and ideas that the developers intended. While I can appreciate TDE as a kind of “What If?” scenario, if it were meant to be the embodiment of the games themes, I think it would have been included in the initial release of the game.
Once again, thanks for the reply. It’s crazy that a game that’s nearly two decades old can still generate philosophical discussion like this.
I have been watching a lot of your videos and I really appreciate them. Thank you for making them, I appreciate the historical and cultural contexts that you add to the discussions. Admittedly, the idea that Neutral being 'supporting the status quo' hadn't occurred to me. It really changes a lot of how to look at some of, potentially all of, the neutral endings. I'm looking forward to more videos of yours, thank you for discussing Shin Megami Tensei games!
Just found your channel, definitely can't wait to see more videos
I don't fully agree with your reading on the Freedom ending, I always saw it as enabling Yuko to live how she wants without being held down by others (and that this is true for everyone, being called "Freedom" and all). Anything is possible in the world of Freedom and it isn't 100% the same as hitting the reset button as you can see with how the protagonist and his friends meet up at Yoyogi Park and Hijiri isn't there anymore.
The pro-status quo/conservatism argument you have toward many Neutral endings is an interesting one though, it definitely gives me stuff to think about. Really good video overall
Agreed. You have to consider in mind that if this were not in the context of outside powers SMT often has, Neutral would be kinda objectively the right choice unless you would somehow genuinely want such a drastic change on society that other sides offer. It's the common implication that Neutral endings are just delaying the inevitable in the long run and that the cycle of demonic invasions and clashes of forces beyond humanity's powers is, in most of the Megaten games in general, never truly escapable, making it reliant on the successors to carry the torch of humanism and suffer through an apocalypse every once in a while. That is, if the Neutral endings in some games even manage to restore society back to what it previously was. I still find Kid's reading a bit too cynically dismissive of Neutral's upsides and Yuko's development, but anyone clearly biased towards Neutral would likely only give the most expected reading.
For the Freedom ending not being a 100% reset, I think Kid acknowledges this but considers the fact that it's very much unclear how much of the Vortex World has been kept inside the humans (and especially the Demi-fiend), making it highly questionable if anything has really changed in the grand scheme of things.
I would agree what you're describing is the intent of Freedom, but I don't think we can stop looking at it there considering the philosophical/political subtext of the game. There's nuance between how the text is framed and it's actual events, so to speak. Part of the reason I think it's important to talk about the conservative themes of neutral is for this reason, since Freedom is "freedom" and this version of Tokyo is meant to reflect the modern world. Nocturne creates the implication that the world as it is right now needs to be preserved because it contains some divinely "free" aspect (literally in how Freedom is juxtaposed with the other Reasons).
Neutral definitely has upsides, but the thing about this is that this series is fiction. The framing of the story and the dynamics of the themes were designed by ATLUS. People have who have their own thoughts, goals, and political opinions, so we can't just leave the discussion there. If something happens, we have to ask WHY does it happen. Beyond whether you agree with them or not politically, I think it also just lends itself to more bland writing since they're pretty clearly biased towards (or against) certain alignments when the entire point of the alignment system is to get the player to think beyond "good" and "evil".
Glibbus
You have a lot more up than I realized. I subscribed a few weeks ago but never really looked at how much you have uploaded. I just keep getting suggestions and am pleasantly surprised to see a video I haven't watched yet. Can I offer some constructive criticism? You should take more time to say what you have to say, there's no rush. The stuff you talk about is hard to follow just by virtue of context, add to that that the visual aspect is really engaging and it can be hard to take in what you're saying.
Just my two cents! One way or the other, your videos are some of the only stuff I can really enjoy on youtube without the aid of thc 😂
Yea, I talk really fast. It's mb, but I'm working on it. It's less of an issue in later videos imo.
@@KidCapes I get it though, nothing bad about it, it's a sign of being passionate about sharing what you've discerned with others. Don't take it too personally if it seemed insulting as that wasn't the intention, and no, you didn't really come off that way with your reply, it's projection of my inability to take and therefore give criticism most likely, and paranoia. I can't really claim to have any idea what it's like to even produce any part of a video that isn't half-assed and has more than single digit views. Sorry to ramble, I like writing sometimes. When I feed a lot of words into my head I start to get verbal.
Superb research on this. I've been intrigued by Aradia but lost on the information.
I hope you dont mind multiple comments. The info in this vid is food for thought. I still really think yuko and the lady in black are the same being. I know its a stretch, and will be called "mental gymnastics," but if "yuriko" is the cannon name for the, uhh, temptress? in smt 1, they are even close phonetically and in pronunciation in romaji. The lady in black seems to be at least similar to smt 1 yuriko in her role in the narrative. Add to that what you say about ariade forcing herself on lucifer, my thought that chiaki was intended to be the "heroine" spurned via fate (at the risk of being sexist, baal avatar is a cat lady ultimately, is she not? Are the demons accompanying her in her last battle a coincidence? she can command angels, so why two cats?) by the hero being forced into what canonically would be the chaos path (by yuko essentially, ESPECIALLY if she and the lady are one in the same) and some other stuff i can't remember right now, I'm somewhat more convinced as such even if it's an unpopular opinion among smt intellectuals. it creates a lot of inversions of the tropes from previous installments of the series that seem to me to line up, still having all the same plot/narrative elements the series is known for. Sorry if its confusing, it makes sense to me though. Why Atlus would do all of that, i don't know, other than they're dedicated to their art.
glib
Fantastic job
yooo new video
Glibbb capes
music names in the beginning pls
Pretty good vid, but I would argue these different points of view would be better categorized as philosophical rather than political.
FUCK YEAH KID CAPES POSTED FUCKKKK YEYEYYEEAAHAHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
Why do you call it mythos if its all historical events, i really like the video.
Because John the Baptist is a legendary figure, and the biblical narrative was likely not historically accurate
Yeah ...
That is why i despise the neutral route in games like SMT strange journey.
The game tries to push it as the superior alternative to Mem aleph and Mastema, but at the end of the day you really saved no one.
In the beginning of the game it is shown how terribile the world has become because of humanity.
The sins of humans caused the wrath of the demons and of the angels.
By defeating both Mem and Mastema, you are just dooming humanity aniway, cause the world is still on the verge of collapse.
There is no hope left at all, It's no happy ending.
Even the Chaos and Law routes in the remake are more desirable outcomes than the neutral route, since they present some sort of hope in their own way.
A Battle royale Is literally more enticing than the neutral route...
Bah
Total enslavement, Total Extinction or Freedom to either follow laws or eschew them? Hmmmmm
9:33 which text is this referring to? The 19th century one or the renaissance one that started the witch hunts?
Anyway, very good video. I think it clearly lays out one of the major problems with neutral.
I also think the stuff with Freedom being an "unnamed reason" ties nicely to how neutral wants to represent itself as a non-ideology, when really it is an ideology, just without a clear image. After all, Freedom is, as you say, opposed to a teleological image of society. But the act of asserting it onto the world/society is just as much of a forceful act on how everyone should exist as something that chaos or law do. That is, it's still an act of determination, just as much as any Reason ending.
The Canon Episcopi from c. 10th century