American white Oak

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ความคิดเห็น • 287

  • @CommercialForest
    @CommercialForest 4 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    That log must have been incredibly expensive! It’s so rare to see a White Oak tree with: that clarity, that diameter, such a large % of heartwood and such a small pith. Thanks for posting! 🙏

  • @danfraser7479
    @danfraser7479 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Amazing white oak with blue iron staining. Wonderful table tops.

  • @kkeyz69
    @kkeyz69 5 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Beautiful grain!

  • @kezkn
    @kezkn 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What a beauty ! Atleast 200 yr old white oak with majestic grains..... even the blue from the nails are so beautiful..... Wow...this tree indeed, has had an incredible journey.

  • @jimstein8249
    @jimstein8249 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Can hear and see the damage to the sawblade, the regular bumping sound and the evenly spaced scores along the face after the blade hit the nail.

    • @whiteoak60
      @whiteoak60 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes ouch
      My saw mill would have stopped and got out metal detectors a we would have removed metal right then and there!!

  • @ManuelGarcia-ww7gj
    @ManuelGarcia-ww7gj 5 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    This tree definitely had an adventurous life. I would love to be able to be there so that I could look at it up close and personal.

  • @dougalexander7204
    @dougalexander7204 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Another wonderful international log on the Sasada saw mill, being made into quality lumber.

  • @brianrowland9993
    @brianrowland9993 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Magnificent timber and a Beast of a Bandsaw!

  • @rogerjohnson6218
    @rogerjohnson6218 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    WOW....Very nice looking White Oak...:-) sweet.... ty.

  • @barrywest3758
    @barrywest3758 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    After careful consideration I looked back on my life growing up here in the Southeastern US. Farmers sometimes had to use what they could afford. At first I thought 3 stranded electric wiring placed in the fork. However, it would have to been there as a slightly older sapling. Didn't make sense because it wouldn't have tall enough for electrical wiring that far back in time. But if this tree was along the perimeter of a pasture then the next logical answer was barbed wire. Didn't take much to keep a dairy cow up. They didn't challenge barbed too much but would stretch it. This makes sense as the wire strands had been placed at different heights on one side of the tree. No nails of that small diameter and length was available that many years ago. "Try driving one into a green white oak without bending it". I've seen this done many times over. No Staples or nails used, just tighly stretched Barbed wire woven in and out around the pasture line. Eventually after being stressed/stretched/rusting they break off. Then another strand is put up in place. The staining occurs in White oak from material with a lot of iron. Real bluish. Nails stain similarly but not blue due to less iron. The barbed wire, and down here in those days, there was single strand barbed wire, appeared to have been replaced a minimum of 3 times after each previous strand rusted away enough to snap. Then the tree healed around it and the damage to the grain along the vertical flow began. Unique historical lumber. You don't have to cut them out to sand them down and epoxy over it to have absolutely beautiful table tops or bar tops with a story behind them. Great video and took me back in time. This is why my grandfather would not allow me to accept any pasture or yard trees for sawing with our huge circular saw mill. Our family and friends knew better because we pastured our milk cows in this manner. Thank you so much sir. I could use a kitchen table or coffee table from those slabs. Wow

    • @petehernandez9360
      @petehernandez9360 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Barry West I was wondering how far down the comment section I would have to go before someone said barbed wire. I'd bet my last dollar it was.

    • @robertdunn7913
      @robertdunn7913 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      I have these trees all over my yard some with the barbed wire going strait thru the middle and they are always black stained when you cut them. I think its probably bullet lead to be that blue most likely buck shot or target practice tree but if your not there to take it out and look at it you never know.

  • @michaelpugh4894
    @michaelpugh4894 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Awesome white oak, a great tree. Lots of board feet from that log!

    • @garywiggett2729
      @garywiggett2729 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      This is the best way to utilize almost the entire log and no wastages from cutting the canth way they do in USA

    • @christophercombs7561
      @christophercombs7561 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@garywiggett2729 there are several different cuts you can get slabs like that in the USA its just that unless you are doing live edge stuff as a mill worker you are going to straight line rip saw all the live edge off any way so it still gets turned into BTUs then most of the stuff with knots will get cut around too because customers refuse the pieces with knots really its pretty clesr you dont work in this field

    • @christophercombs7561
      @christophercombs7561 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      True you dont see that kind of diameter very often sad about that staining though

  • @SnowTiger45
    @SnowTiger45 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Beautiful Board Slabs. They'd make some gorgeous table tops. Even if the very center is cut out and the two quarter-sawn parts on each side stitched together.
    But I think I'd leave the Blue Stain in for Character !
    I'd LOVE to get my hands on one or two slabs like this.

  • @someotherdude
    @someotherdude 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    This is so satisfying to watch

  • @oneshotme
    @oneshotme 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very beautiful grain in it
    Enjoyed and gave a Thumbs Up also

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Anderson
      Arigatou

  • @bonniebrock5109
    @bonniebrock5109 5 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    D'oh!! Now we have fancy blue wood coffee tables instead.

    • @timjester8555
      @timjester8555 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      I'm guessing real old iron nails, that's a large area and streaks of staining

  • @charlieb6090
    @charlieb6090 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    A thing of beauty to watch.

  • @chriswise1762
    @chriswise1762 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Backyard Timber always seems to have Nails in it

    • @JoshuaMichail0
      @JoshuaMichail0 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      That tree looks like it had grown around a few cables.

  • @calvinsusanwebber3414
    @calvinsusanwebber3414 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    That tree was on a fence row and it was never cut because the loggers new it had hardware thats why it got so big.

  • @albertcyphers1532
    @albertcyphers1532 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I personally saw a log that had a musket grown in it boy did that raise hell with the teeth on the blade

  • @wmman8256
    @wmman8256 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    That is some beautiful woof? the grain is amazing! I especially like the blue staining caused by the nails, is stunning.

    • @CommercialForest
      @CommercialForest 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      William Mann that’s an interesting chemical reaction. I’ve never seen that before.

    • @wmman8256
      @wmman8256 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Might have used copper nails to get that color. Who knows?

  • @ronaldschatte1383
    @ronaldschatte1383 4 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Wow, how old that tree was....those nails at the center must have been placed a very very long time ago...

    • @christophercombs7561
      @christophercombs7561 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Probably fencing as opposed to nail because there is an awful lot of staining for just a nail or 2

  • @marionrobertson3895
    @marionrobertson3895 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Yoshihiro the white oak has beautiful medium brown grain I soo enjoy the video.Thanks be blessed.

  • @0475Mike
    @0475Mike 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wonder how old this magnificent tree was? Absolutely gorgeous.

  • @Beachwood-km4hp
    @Beachwood-km4hp 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I wonder how long a saw blade lasts cutting like this?

  • @frankpourcel7068
    @frankpourcel7068 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Que belleza tiene la madera, es realmente hermosa.

  • @kagosupe3
    @kagosupe3 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    最後の一枚、特に良いですね!

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      ありがとうございます。

    • @user-zw5to7hw9v
      @user-zw5to7hw9v 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      そうですね

  • @AuditRecon
    @AuditRecon 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just curious,,,What made the blue coloring? The Nail?

  • @b.slocumb7763
    @b.slocumb7763 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You can cut smaller boards from the stained slabs, and use the stained portions to make things like bowls and plates or woodcarvings.

  • @JoshuaMichail0
    @JoshuaMichail0 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wonder how much white oak costs per board foot in Japan? Or, should I say per board meter, divided 3 (since a meter is about 3 feet)? I expect importation will naturally make it more expensive than it is here, where it's a domestic wood.

  • @jfan4reva
    @jfan4reva 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just got home from the local home improvement store. Was wondering why you can't buy oak over 1 inch that isn't glued together from 1 inch lumber. Still wondering. Beautiful wood.
    Nice video! ありがとうございます.

    • @Tinkercatnh
      @Tinkercatnh 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      You can't buy lumber like this at a home improvement store. You need to go to a real hardwood dealer such as: www.highlandhardwoods.com/ or www.nwtimber.com/

  • @Fungusson
    @Fungusson 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    That saw would need to be ground out, benched then re swaged or re tipped (it was painful to listen to) and no just filing wouldnt keep it going the marking was so bad

  • @kyleboettcher1276
    @kyleboettcher1276 5 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Somebody pulled a fast one on you and sold a fence row white oak to Japan

  • @craigwillenborg1831
    @craigwillenborg1831 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    You need a movable top guide.

  • @wm.shultzie2275
    @wm.shultzie2275 5 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Surprised to see it sawed through and through, like to see how it's processed for the end product.

    • @bradleyrussell1973
      @bradleyrussell1973 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I'll work on making a short video. We are a high output hardwood mill. I would have fell asleep, the way this guy is sawing. Too slow. We churn about 40,000' a shift, each headrig. Times two headrigs and resaws!! Alot of boards!!

    • @joedude9954
      @joedude9954 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Waisting a lot of clears doing it that way.

  • @1339LARS
    @1339LARS 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for showing !!

  • @sumatai1
    @sumatai1 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Beautiful white oak!!!

  • @Artoconnell
    @Artoconnell 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    How much does one of those blades cost to make? are they made on site?

  • @longlowdog
    @longlowdog 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    90 degrees and fate would have produced so much more beautiful timber.

  • @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644
    @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    How much of its blade is offered in breadth

  • @chocolatte6157
    @chocolatte6157 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have white oak floors and white oak dining table in my house. Beautiful wood.

  • @786otto
    @786otto 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    That saw is just crazy sharp with tremendous power. Looks like this log was ment for fire wood .

  • @raimundoribeirodasilva8920
    @raimundoribeirodasilva8920 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Ja..serrei.muita.madeira..em.toras..mas.essa.tecnologia.e.fantastica.muito.avancada.

  • @AuditRecon
    @AuditRecon 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lots of money in that log. Nice grain pattern.

  • @user-qo9ml1qb5q
    @user-qo9ml1qb5q 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    สวยงามมากเลย

  • @3870TheDad
    @3870TheDad 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wonder how much that middle slab, with the unusual staining, was sold for? Just the asthetics alone was worth a bunch.

  • @AtleMyhre
    @AtleMyhre 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How thick are the boards is been cut into?

  • @2020heinsite
    @2020heinsite 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Quarter sawn white oak is fantastic material for furniture. A great amount of that was lost in milling like this. Then again the log was most likely sent to you to be cut as it was for another purpose. Too bad so much was spoiled by nail stains. That can never be foreseen.

  • @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644
    @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please tell me what is the rate of this machine

  • @calvinsusanwebber3414
    @calvinsusanwebber3414 5 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    I think thats fence wire when the tree was young

    • @erlycuyler
      @erlycuyler 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes. Or bullets.

  • @007Variable
    @007Variable 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    damn big log! you could of made 4x8 sheets...

  • @jbelahslotchannel4224
    @jbelahslotchannel4224 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Exciting to watch...

  • @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644
    @bhalsinghsutharaaramachine3644 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Which country is this

  • @moultonditcher6187
    @moultonditcher6187 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The only one getting a timber log out of my woodlot,would be me.

  • @beboboymann3823
    @beboboymann3823 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Excellent job sawyer!

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Arigato

    • @bartimeausjt676
      @bartimeausjt676 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      No, should have rotated the log, then throw away the middle.

  • @stephenodell9688
    @stephenodell9688 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I would like to get some table slabs off that log. You know about 3' wide and 2" thick.

  • @america2revolt
    @america2revolt 5 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    That tree might have been use as a fence post when it was a very young tree.

    • @davidparry8514
      @davidparry8514 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      they might have lost some money on that log

  • @antoinettejohnson8295
    @antoinettejohnson8295 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    would love one large wide slab to make a naturl wood table

  • @wntu4
    @wntu4 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Whats with all the blue color?

  • @Eagles0690
    @Eagles0690 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    That’s gonna make some beautiful tables

  • @rickpascual4340
    @rickpascual4340 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Beautiful log

  • @Pisanggoreng-87
    @Pisanggoreng-87 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sangar cak serat kayune
    Top temen iku lek digawe meja makan maringono dicoating

  • @sydmarty1
    @sydmarty1 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow! Very pretty wood!!

  • @Canopus68
    @Canopus68 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I wish there had been a mill this big near where my folks lived. They had five white oaks that were as large or bigger than this log. To give you an idea, the biggest was with in ten points of being the largest in the state. Sadly about 20 years ago it went down. I wish I'd a way to get it out of the woods and sawed into boards.

  • @flysause
    @flysause 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    How old was this tree? It looks very big!

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Know idea
      Sorry
      Arigato

  • @taunteratwill1787
    @taunteratwill1787 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    America'n??

  • @user-kg9lc9qm6p
    @user-kg9lc9qm6p 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    このようなウッドソーをいくら雇いますか?

  • @goodiezgrigis
    @goodiezgrigis 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Larch fir and spruce trees in some areas around me are littered with shrapnel, granedes, bullets and stone from explosions from first and second world war. Those beautifull trees are up to 5 feet thick, but you can't saw them without wreaking havoc on the blades, so we avoid them in general.

  • @tresnocksinila3814
    @tresnocksinila3814 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Alat canggih jenis kayu berkelas mantap betul

  • @justfun985
    @justfun985 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wonder if you could use some solution (to remove the oxidation) to return the steel to its original form for removal, of stain, or the metal with magnet?

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Difficult
      Arigato

  • @glennjames2324
    @glennjames2324 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Gorgeous, gorgeous, wood !!
    And might I add excellent Sawyer work.
    Most people don't understand that where you start and or how you choose to cut can make a HUGE difference in the grain and figuring you end up with on your boards.

    • @ysasada18
      @ysasada18  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      arigato

    • @CommercialForest
      @CommercialForest 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Glenn James It helps starting with a log of that quality, too!

    • @glennjames2324
      @glennjames2324 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@CommercialForest YES !!!
      That helps alottttttt !!!

  • @edwardhine9224
    @edwardhine9224 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    My dad built our house in PA 80 years ago, he said that he used 4 X 8 sheet of cider on the out side. I always thought he was exaggerating. But after seeing the size of some of these tree maybe he wasn't.

  • @jamesm6278
    @jamesm6278 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    What is the blue in there

  • @andrewstafford-jones4291
    @andrewstafford-jones4291 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Surprised the metal detector didn't pick the metal up or maybe it did and they decided to try it anyway!
    We would try the metal logs when the blade was getting to the end of its life - it always takes a few dozen stelite tips out at the cost of £3 or £4 each (they are brazed on and profiled as the blade is sharpened) but you can be lucky (very rarely)

  • @klt777
    @klt777 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What ever it was, was in the center of a 100+ possibly 200+ year old tree. I would do an age test (dendrochronology) and where did it come from.

    • @panzerlieb
      @panzerlieb 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I’m guessing it’s closer to 300 yrs old and yes that iron was put there about 200 yrs ago. White oaks grow slow

    • @whiteoak60
      @whiteoak60 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@panzerlieb yes 300 years
      We have a couple on our farm about that size !
      Lots of 175s1😁

  • @agustin1736
    @agustin1736 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Madera de que árbol es?

  • @Trmmaryland
    @Trmmaryland 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow, amazing

  • @antoniobatista16
    @antoniobatista16 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Parabéns muito bom
    Eu...25...06...2020
    😷☔🇧🇷

  • @P40SLika
    @P40SLika 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Waw.. emezink. ..

  • @dennyoconnor8680
    @dennyoconnor8680 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Those will end up as blow-your-mind-expensive table tops in corporate boardrooms.

    • @sc0tte1-416
      @sc0tte1-416 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Ain't that the truth.

  • @CheatersHaveSmollPP
    @CheatersHaveSmollPP 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    this is pretty cool next vid may i suggest running it through an audio program and maybe reducing that white noise from the saw? Don't take it all the way out just make easily watchable.

    • @roberthelmick9574
      @roberthelmick9574 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      May I suggest that you turn down your volume?

  • @jayfmiller
    @jayfmiller 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I always wonder why the mills don't use modern metal detectors to pinpoint nail locations. Even the new hand held detectors can spot a nail in the center of a 36" bore. I use mine to scan logs before killing a bandsaw blade. I use a deep hole saw to core out the nail. My re-saw blade cost only $175 US. I hate to think what the blade for a large mill costs.

  • @joaosobrinho9066
    @joaosobrinho9066 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Trem bem montado essa serraria aí ,nos EUA em gostei
    Madeira linda essa aí do vídeo ....

  • @dwightarnold6980
    @dwightarnold6980 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Will make nice coffee tables!

  • @fernandomartinez125
    @fernandomartinez125 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Why is it blue?

  • @paratrooper7340
    @paratrooper7340 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I just hate to watch a sawyer cutting logs filled with blade killing nails. This is obviously a serious lumber sawing operation so I'm wondering why they don't use a metal detector to scan the log before or during the milling operation, it might save hundreds if not thousands if you can locate a nail or an em-bedded bullet before your blade hits is and needs to be re-toothed - just wondering.

  • @mdorf61
    @mdorf61 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    nail for sign "posted no trespassing"

  • @slackdammit
    @slackdammit 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I feel like I should get paid for watching this.

  • @petergeorgeopolus3048
    @petergeorgeopolus3048 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Do you sell slabs like these you are cutting off

  • @jozf8163
    @jozf8163 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Is it possible to bleach those stains??

  • @franklinwerren7684
    @franklinwerren7684 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wonder the age of that tree, did anyone count rings on that monster!!!!! Iron nails have not been used in may years.

  • @kennethcunningham9496
    @kennethcunningham9496 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    White Oak: Fine Wine and Whiskey Barrels, and some Rum and Sherry aged in the spent Whiskey barrels, but Red Oak: Now that's reserved for Santa Maria BBQ...

  • @oscar87171
    @oscar87171 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    What is the Blue Stain?

  • @calvinsusanwebber3414
    @calvinsusanwebber3414 5 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    kinda looks like thay got nailed on that log

    • @stephenodell9688
      @stephenodell9688 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Nail where? At what time stamp, those things turn the wood blue. I worked a rail road tie mill once, we got a log that had gone hollow and some farmer filled it with rocks. That put us down for the rest of the day while the sawyer replaced teeth. O.K. I see it now.

    • @Beachwood-km4hp
      @Beachwood-km4hp 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Over the years - I ran into a nail or wire fence a few times. Sure does a number on a chain..

    • @christophercombs7561
      @christophercombs7561 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@stephenodell9688 i ran into a bullet at work the other day but i cought it before we ran it through the moulder save a few bucks on carbide blades

    • @stephenodell9688
      @stephenodell9688 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@christophercombs7561 Did you hear about the guy that took some petrified wood and tried to put it threw a planer?.

    • @christophercombs7561
      @christophercombs7561 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@stephenodell9688 yikes no but that sounds disastrous i would never its bad enough that micro pins chip the planer blsdes i could only imagine stone

  • @bradleyrussell1973
    @bradleyrussell1973 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Uh oh!! Metal I the log!!!

  • @harkarai4059
    @harkarai4059 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    perfect ..!

  • @bradleyrussell1973
    @bradleyrussell1973 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Why y'all scared of it? It won't bite. Saw that SOB! Saw, saw, saw!

    • @GlobalistJuice
      @GlobalistJuice 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      That's what makes the 2x video speed option so great!

  • @marktownsend2009
    @marktownsend2009 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    thank you.

  • @bugbomb8048
    @bugbomb8048 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nails driven in the 1800’s I’d say ...... damn settlers

  • @shanek6582
    @shanek6582 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    There’s a special place in hell for people that drive nails in trees.

    • @shanek6582
      @shanek6582 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      ab c, the kids dad I guess, he should have taught them better lol.

    • @erlycuyler
      @erlycuyler 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Could be bullets. Remember, the U.S and C.S.A. each made a half billion musket balls.

  • @shanek6582
    @shanek6582 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sawmills around us in West Virginia send all the good logs to japan, idk why they don’t want us to saw it first then send the lumber over?

    • @robertdunn7913
      @robertdunn7913 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Because Japan is paying more than top dollar for these logs. Oak, cherry, walnut, and any other top quality wood. If it was your wood you would sell it to them too for what they are paying.