Reaction To Group B: When Rally Became TOO FAST!!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Many comments on my last Rallying video asked me to react to @Driver61 video on when Group B Became Too Fast. This video goes into great detail about Group B and it's downfall
Link To Original Video:
• Group B: When Rallying...
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Let's not forget about Michele Mouton; the fastest female racing driver ever that just casually lost out on a Group B WRC on the last race due to gearbox failure ...
She was an amazing driver, generally underrated because she's a woman (I'm not a Lefty, I just like to recognise talent!)
I'm old enough to have witnessed Group B cars live. It was an exciting period but I think FIA made the right decision to end it before more lives were lost. The cars were simply not safe enough for rallying. It took about five years of Group A development to catch up. The group A cars of early 90s were already as quick as Group B cars were despite having less power, more weight, front engine and better safety features. And rally cars of today are absolute rocket ships when compared to group B or A. IMHO the best thing about Group B was not the performance but the fact that manufacturers had the freedom to come up with very different solutions to the same problem.
FIA was forced to end Group B, they didn't do it willingly.
I remember the Mintex round in the UK. Seeing Group B cars, at night, pulverising Kielder forest roads and chucking rocks and flames at us spectators is something I will never forget. Thanks Dad!
Today WRC cars are way faster and powerful that group B . It was just too early to make them also safe.
wrc for boys, group b for man
Walter Röhrl
@@arnodobler1096 Even Rohrl said the cars were too fast to drive.
@@framegrace1 The cars didn't have electronic assistants like they do today.
@@arnodobler1096 THey don't. Stabilty aids are forbidden. (Not that they would be useful anyway, a rally car needs to be able to slide)
They allowed ABS for a while. I think Traction crontrol is allowed, but is also not generally installed. When in use is mostly for launch control at the start.
The electronic that made the change are mostly the ECUS to smooth and control boost and power output. But I would not consider that an "aid". It's just a modern engine.
@@arnodobler1096 it ess Juha Kankunen.
what you said about making the fastest cars possible and finding tracks to suit that just means you'll end up with circuit racing, which isnt rally.
rally is threading the car through twisty, narrow roads and tracks in different conditions.
FIA: we need to go a bit nuts
Rallying: hold my Absinth...
Also that Lancia beat everything in terms of looks, then or since
The Lancia S4 did 0-100 around 2,5 seconds on gravel. Before they luckily ended the group B, they developed cars that had up to 1000 hp.
One of the main problems with these cars is that the engine technology exceeded the limits of tyres, shock absorbers etc and the cars became quite dangerous.
Also that they tried to keep the weight down and removed most safety features.
3:00 World Rallycross and Rally are two sports. By the way, after Group B was banned, these cars were used precisely in Rallycross on closed circuits. Group B was in the same position as today's WRC1 cars. WRC is not only the name of the championship, but a class of cars. Today we have WRC1 - WRC5. Sometimes called Rally1, Rally2, Rally3, ...
In rally, there are three elements that work together: the pilot, the co-pilot, and the car. If any one of these elements fails, the race goes bonkers. Group B was a fun era of rallying, but it can't exist in the modern era because the cars are too powerful. You have to understand the mindset of a rally driver. If a rally driver fails at one point on the track, they will try to regain the lost time by pushing the car and their luck to the very edge. One failure, and it's a Group B race-the outcome can be very bad.
Toivonen was a rock star, and still is in his home country of Finland. Toivonen is often referred as Senna of rallying, due to his impact on track and the impact his death had on the sport. He was dominating until his crash.
You are watching these videos, so my assumption is that you are a car guy. Do yourself a favor and check out some Group B with pure sound. That's like engine p*rn for your ears.
3:50 Group A followed on from Group B, regulated of course, it was the nineties era again. In 1998 came the first long-liter WRC, which includes cars such as Seat Cordoba WRC, Citroen C4 WRC, Škoda Octavia WRC, Škoda Fabia WRC, Ford Focus WRC and the well-known and probably the best Subaru Impreza WRC in many variants. Then it continued to change and it reached today's hybrid WRC.
Jean Todt was the máster engenieer that create Peugeot 205 t16 ,some years laters, won 5 f1 titles Whith Michael Schumaher as a team principal of Ferrari
One of this AUDI's was driven by Michèle Mouton )
After banning of group B the group A cars became top class in rallying. Rules were changed as well to shorten the long days and more effort was put into spectator control. After group A came the WRC class with high tech but they were costly. WRC was replaced by Rally1 with new safety cell technology and engine power increased but also limiting some of the technology to keep costs down. Next ruleset is expected to be used from 2027 onwards. Currently Rally1 cars have hybrid system with 380 hp from combustion engine and 150 hp from electric motors on top.
There have been many different categories of rally cars (group 4, group N, group R..) and there are a lot of national and regional championship series around the world. WRC is the top of the top.
Shortly before Group B died the FIA had been secretly building up Group S. This class would remove ALL homologation and limits. Three prototype cars were built before it too was cancelled. Two of the cars were scrapped. The third is the Audi Quattro RS 002, and it's still on display at Audi HQ. It's specs: 2.1 ltr turbocharged and modified engine producing 690hp, and a total curb weight of less than 1000kg. Top speed, 300kph!! In a fkn rally car!!! 😱
The Last car he mentioned, the Lancia Delta S4, had around 550 bhp and could accelerate on gravel from 0-60 mph in around 2.5s, so yea, too quick. Thats hypercar levels of performance on tracks that can get as tight as tiny rural lanes. Bare in mind, modern F1 cars accelerate to 60 in between 2.1 and 2.7s
Group b had no limits in performace, u could change the engine setups between stages, there were cases with 800-1000hp in some cases, there is story about lancia engeneers played with turbos and injection timings, tried one stage, result was about 1100hp...
Rally is so fun to watch.
Nykyajan ralliautot on paljon nopeampia. Usa on autoilussa pahasti Eurooppaa jäljessä, autonne on hitaita ja vanhanaikaisia
Hi , you have to watch the ' Walther Röhrl ' Documantery in the Audi Quattro and watch His Footwork while driving ( His drivingstyle was way ahead ... btw Finish Rally Drivers are the fearless Drivers ever seen .. but Maniac Fans ( to much died cause they where stupid ) bring this Group B to an End
rally drivers are the best in the world, many times better than F1 drivers, they drive on asphalt, snow, sand and incredibly fast ... no barriers, only trees and spectators .. the best motorsport in the world .. nothing compares to it
David coulthard agrees.
People standing next to a road watch traffic go by are either spectators or police. Both looks!😅
“They are only bushes to us-only trees; if we think these are people, we cannot drive” Audi driver Walter Röhrl
What Peugeot had in its pocket for next season was 1000hp engine. Juha Kankkunen tested that after cancelation of group b in a closed airfield. With heated slicks tires there was no traction until he got to 4th gear, earphones of him and co driver were thrown to rear window from acceleration. His opinion about the sport was that it was last second to kill that because next seasons cars would have been way beyond human capabilities to be driven on gravel tracks. Last competing model of 205 t16 had over 600hp in some rallys but to save tires and to get faster spooling they used smaller turbo for tarmac rallys.
Henri Toivonen said before he died, that it is impossible for the brain to take in everything that is jus flashing before you. Lancia had cars that were close to 1000 hp.
Theres an eye condition listed in Ophthalmology texts called PVL or Tunnel Vision. It where your peripheral vision out the side of your eyes deteriorates and goes blind, and all you can see is what you're directly staring at, like looking down a black tunnel.
While there are several medical conditions that cause it, one listed cause in texts is "Group B Rally driving (1985, 1986)"
The cars were so fast and drivers had to concentrate so hard that it was destroying their vision 🤯
Even though it was the most fascinating period of the World Rally Championship, I don't think that with the technology available in the 80s it would have been possible to save Group B. Rally drivers are famous for their superhuman driving skills, but above all for their great courage, which sometimes even becomes recklessness. When people like this go so far as to say that the car is too fast for the reflexes of a human being and confess to being terrified of the car while driving it, we can really be sure that something is wrong. Driving a 500 hp car that weighs much less than a ton to the limit is an adrenaline-filled experience even today... Doing it on a very narrow mountain road, full of potholes and perhaps even with snow and in the dark, is a scary experience...doing it in the 80s, with tires and suspensions that compared to those of today are ridiculous, with completely absent regulations and attention to safety, without electronics or driving aids of any kind, is a completely crazy experience. .. Practically a suicide attempt. With technology and today's safety, perhaps it would be possible to propose a similar formula again, but the point is that perhaps there is no longer a need for it given the performance achieved by today's WRCs. Today the cars in the world championship are missiles... Who needs to make the regulations more permissive? If you want to see completely crazy cars racing on the road, there are already uphill races. All you need to do is attend a European Hill Climb Championship race to see the most absurd vehicles on the road... From city cars with motorbike engines, to Ferraris, to old Group B cars, to formula single-seaters. Try watching some videos of the European Hillclimb Championship and you'll see what a spectacle it is! For these reasons and others, the death of the glorious Group B was inevitable.
Modern Rally 1 WRC cars have even more insane and complex aerodynamics than this monsters of 80's, but i cant deny, that all this boxy shaped bodykits looking insanely stylish and oldschool.
I think you don’t quite understand the concept of rallying. It’s done on closed public roads, normally point A to point B, around 30-40km a stage with multiple stages a day and in the case of WRC over multiple days in multiple countries, so it’s not practical or possible to have the roads completely “safe” for either drivers, cars or spectators, so under those conditions Group B just couldn’t be made safe.
the first audi rally was a test stage in monte carlo. it was so fast in one that one stage it was minutes ahead of competitors. they estimated that if they had run the whole race they could have been as far ahead as 20 min over its nearest rival. I have also been lucky enough to have had a ride in an original group b audi (there are plenty of replicas now running about) that my stepdad was restoring and 30 years on the car is still an absolute animal to drive. Sadly he sold it as it was getting to expensive to keep restoring it and it went to a private museam in germany. An abolutelty amazing car that very nearly took a female driver to becoming a WRC champion. (mechnical failure on the last rally ended her championship home. michelle muoton was her name, first and only real female competitor in WRC.
You should check out "Porsche and Audi's Talladega speed records" by Stijn Paspont
Modern rally cars have far, far more aerodynamic structures than they had back in the 80s. Just Google a modern WRC car and you'll see it's festooned with wings and ducts etc.
just doesnt look like it because nowadays they can calculate anything needed to have optimal Aero. Back in the Days they were more like "lets make it Biiiig"^^
@@Tearnofear I don't know if I agree tbh. Just look at a current WRC spec Hyundai or Toyota compared to their road going variants and they're aero'd up to the gills.
@@Fez135 because nowadays the whole Car is part of the Aerodynamic. Hence there are many lil wings or flaps wich some people might not realize as part of the Aero. Back then it was mostly front and back. More obvious.
Totally on your side, just trying to say it from a more unexperienced view :)
@@Tearnofear I suppose you're probably right. From a layman's view it doesn't look as pronounced.
I suggest this video in the comment as an option for a reaction and the next day it is here. You are absolutely amazing.
I really try to do what my fans want. Thank you so much for the support.
@@AmericanF1Fan And now the second one about Michelle Mouton. :)
Semi automatic means secuencial gear box
Yeah, his american brain heard the word "automatic" and immediately assumed the gearbox shifted gears by itself. 😆
bonjour. je suis français. quand le groupe B a été arrêté, les voitures du groupe B ont été transformées pour faire le rallye paris - dakar 🤗
In Group B, before the end of the era the cars were pushing over 500hp, Some say that the Audi was pushing almost 550hp, if not over. but just about everything was pushing over 400, depending on how the car was set up.
You talk about the spectators on the side of a track.
Well here, have a 15 mile stretch of public dirt roads in the middle of nowhere, and get the spectators to stay reasonable distance away from those cars. When they want to be so close that they could touch the cars... Yeah, That's not going to happen.
And yes attempting to touch a passing rally car was something that the spectators actually did.
once in the history of group B, at the end of a stage, going for maintenance, there was 4 fingers in other side intake of a Peugeot driven by (If I remember Correctly) Ari Vatanen.
What it comes to Audi's front engine, and most others mid engine setups.
Audis Understeer due to heavy nose requires many corrections, Especially when in those cars you couldn't really use handbrake to turn like in modern rally cars, as the AWD systems were stinn in their infancy, How ever that made the Audi very predictable to drive. it's going to try to understeer in all situations.
While cars like Peugeot, Lancia, and MG, with their mid mounted engines were more "neutral" during the cornering, and they had shorter wheelbase, they occasionally suffered from "twitchy" handling, where the rear suddeenly tries to pass the front, where the best way to correct it, was full throttle, Shift the weight to the rear of the car, turn in even harder, and hope that the front brakes loose. Now nobody knows what happened with Henri Toivonen, But it was most likely reason why the incident at Portugali happened. RS200 is notoriously twitchy to drive on the limit.
I remember, and miss those days, the 80s.
Walter Röhrl the most famous Audi Group B driver said: "if you start to think it's too late!" About driving that Group B Audi S1
Something what he said too was:
Good drivers have the midges on the side windows
When we talk about driving a car, driving a car is rally driving, everything else is a children's birthday party (he said that in a question what he thinks about F1. Btw. Röhrl even tested a F1 car but he didn't liked it)
Legend, love the midge quote!
david coulthard and his former team mate last year did a test stage with kalle the finnish kid that won the WRC. 15km, up and down a hill was enough for David, in his words he had never been so scared in his whole life. His quote (its on youtube in his interview) Rally drivers skills make F1 look like amateurs.
they need to bring group b back ...that's when people loved Motorsport...now it's just dull , we need the monsters to come back
Semi auto goes back to the 60s. Group b...had an early vw dsg.
Group B was a space race that changed the WRC. Manufacturers soon realized the limitles oportunities the class gave, and took as many as they could. Audi could've been much more competitive if as their rivals went for a mid-engined car, but Piech was in the way; he sought to compete to a car that wasn't so unrelated to anything the brand produced, thus, they stuck with the front, longitudinal engine layout, half the engine hanging off the front axle. Absolutely horrible weight distribution that made the Audi Quattro S1 E, to date the most powerful WRC entry (~600hp [592]) not be on pace with the lighter and better conceived 205 T16 E2 and Delta S4.
Circuit racing also went through this balls to wall era with the Group C class, also incredible. It's the very reason we have chicanes in LeMans today.
Massive sound issues, video quiet your voice load
I saw these cars live when I was a teen.
The most impressive of rally cars of today is their shock absorbers...look at how the car behave after one big jump. It have no secondary bounce at all..
You're confusing spoiler with wing. All wings are spoilers, but not all spoilers are wings...sort of.
When they ended it the new class taking over it were limited to 300hp, which is still the case. So basicly half of the 600hp lasst year of group b
The Rally 1 Hybrid cars are now at over 500bhp
...remember, this was over 40 years ago...s lot has been developed since but these cars were something else...
WRC classification came on late 1990`s. There were group 1,2,3, and then group 4 became group B. After group B top group became group A. Todays WRC 1 has aero no rally car has ever had. It actually resembles group B cars, its space frame, kevlar, carbon fibre panels as body and more than 500 hps. WRC 1 car is nothing like road going version. Audi used that semi auto tranny only in one race, RAC 1985, it didnt work, the y returned to H configuration.
the touvienin crash there are suspicions that the manufactor filled the roll cage with fuel which caused that terrible fire. also of note, in the scene with the audi with the smashed in back, you will notice that under the rear wing it is black, that is a radiator that was used to cool the oil.
You do know in the delta the driver and navigators seats sat on the fuel tank.
I love when MOTOs review things
It wasn't allowed to survive, because it took the attention away from F1. Bernie Ecclestone hated it & made it known to the motorsport top brass.
Audi Quattro was the Mustang Horse on steroid at that time
Channel Amjayes2 have really well done group B vids.
11:35 Just so you don't get it wrong: on a F1 Car the Engine is in the optimal Space. You cant rly compare Rally to F1. Both are on a very high level but on a totally different side of the Spectrum
If group b exists now The manufacturer will use a turbine engine like the one in the M1 Abrams tank.
Because turbine engines are smaller and produce more horsepower than piston engines.(Although they burn more gasoline)
New rallycars 500hv, wrc1. Kalle Rovanperä world Champion
pls more !
What in the hell is PooJoe? It is Pur-zho for crying out loud.
Rallying is raced predominantly on public roads. Many of them have a loose surface. Grip and handling are more important on these surfaces. Huge power is more of a hindrance in those situations.
no one actually pronounce peugeot "Pur-zho" in france
@@pikminologueraisin2139 of course they do. Do you think they say POO JOE?
@@martinscott-reed5379 well they don't say pur-zho, there are no r and z pronounciation
@@pikminologueraisin2139 if you knew anything with regard to grammar, you would know zho doesn't have a z sound.
@@martinscott-reed5379 sorry that i doubted ya
Do my ears a favour, balance your sound with the original Video Audio!
Edit: You are at 12 and the original needs to be at 45 to balance out!
Yeah I thought I did and when I went to edit it, I realized the original audio came through too quietly. I am so so sorry for that.
Sequential gearbox not semi-automatic.
TTman
Usa people now nothing ny wrc1 rally
Group B ws the F1 or IndyCar of rally
it was nice while it lasted
now only the WEC is watchable
Bullcrap! WRC cars are insanely faster than Group B ever was! Stage times are minutes faster, not seconds. MINUTES!
@@js0988 they're faster in a lame way, better pneumatics and suspensions. it's like with f1's new cars, they're faster but people will still crave the v10s and ferrari's v12. they're too safe to drive. snow specials became a joke but most importantly the events are way too shorts and the rally1s are way to costly, we only have 3 manufacters in the main category. we have rally2 - 3 and 4 but no one care for them.. remember the kit cars of the 90s? people were huge fans of ragnotti and his clio. seat and hyundai found some success and the 306 and xsara were are able to beat the main WRC cars, that led an impact and made those brands want to compete in the main class, same with pilots which careers began in a kit car and then thrived in WRC like the famed Loeb.
New ralli car faster
They have been faster over 2 decades.
LIterallly everything you say is wrong or completely out of context, or it's 100% pulled out of your A. Why do you have to pretend to know 1 thing about Rally? Because EVERYONE who does wants it to rain bricks by now.
Please tell me how I pretended that I knew 1 things about rally???
In the Formula 1 its also many famous supercars that's on the top. Ferrari, Mc-Laren and Mercedes to mention some of the most famous. The formula 1 is very much regulated and have so many rules. Much of what came first in formula 1 cars ended up in these super cars of today.
Just having a monster engine on a car that is dangerous to drive, because of a car with bad road holding characteristics actually survived for a very long time, but that was only in America 🤔... Take that Mustang GT as an modern variant 😂😂🫣