No Toilet Paper? Now What?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 เม.ย. 2021
  • Lonnie demonstrates a backwoods way of making "toilet paper" that could come in handy in an emergency when you just gotta go but have no toilet paper.
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    Hello my name is Lonnie and My wife is Connie.
    Here at Far North Bushcraft And Survival you will learn about many long forgotten tricks and tips of the old time woodsmen. Not only will you learn about bushcraft / woodcraft but you will learn many things that will help you to survive in less than ideal "survival" situations as well. Come along and sit with me by the campfire as I delve into these subjects in a way that you can easily learn to then do yourself.
    I will show you how to make shelters, gather food, use wild medicines as well as start fires with or without matches, lighters, ferro rods, etc
  • แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต

ความคิดเห็น • 555

  • @danhunik7949
    @danhunik7949 3 ปีที่แล้ว +60

    Now there is a topic no one else had the guts to cover. Well done.

  • @stewpot3971
    @stewpot3971 3 ปีที่แล้ว +38

    In the Army I was taught to use a snow ball rolled into a sausage shape in arctic conditions...nice a fresh on a winter's day I can tell you!

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว +13

      Yes Snow works great but I don't bother shaping it when I use it.
      There are plenty of other natural alternatives as well.
      A Wilderness Pooping Guide
      th-cam.com/video/6r0qor5RcEQ/w-d-xo.html

    • @pilgrim.5630
      @pilgrim.5630 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      🤣👍

    • @RussoTuristoofSPb
      @RussoTuristoofSPb 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      👍

    • @donlute3444
      @donlute3444 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      I was raised up being told they used corn cobs. Depression days.

    • @garyharmon1155
      @garyharmon1155 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I imagine that would keep you awake and alert at your post, lol😆

  • @FelixImmler
    @FelixImmler 3 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    Super Trick! Thanks Lonnie

  • @russlee650
    @russlee650 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Lonnie your voice is amazingly smooth deep and gentle. If I had your voice I would sit in a corner and talk to myself. You should look at trying readings and post a few stories. I bet you're an awesome story teller.

  • @kevinmckinzie
    @kevinmckinzie 3 ปีที่แล้ว +64

    In the old days... well, really not that long ago, everyone in the household had a hook in the outhouse to hang their rag. It was typically the woman of the household that went out every so often and collected the sht rags and boiled them off in a sht rag pot. I assume this was before the Sears catalog.

    • @michami135
      @michami135 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      This is why I have a bundle of rags in my bug out bag.
      Along with some cloth (washable) carrying bags.

    • @modakkagitplugga
      @modakkagitplugga 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Wonder if that's a good way to collect potassium nitrate for fertilizer

    • @williamburdon6993
      @williamburdon6993 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Were those do do rags

    • @babyinuyasha
      @babyinuyasha 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      He who stirs the shit pot must lick the spoon

    • @mikejay9838
      @mikejay9838 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      NOT FAIR posting this without sharing the intimate details! What a great idea! Boiling! 1) Are they really clean when done? 1a) What additional cleanup is required? 2) How long to boil?

  • @andrewlast1535
    @andrewlast1535 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    “They ended up using a glove is the rumor we heard?” 🤣🤣 My brother in law used his fishing license once. Lol

  • @dadmachines
    @dadmachines 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    I can now replace the toilet paper holder in my guest bathroom with a branch and a knife.
    You wanna poo in my house you're gonna work for it!

  • @theoneandonlyowl3764
    @theoneandonlyowl3764 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Lol. As a kid, I was always glad when the family bought some boxes of apples and peaches... all wrapped individually in soft-ish paper. Far better than the newspaper squares that hung on the hook in the outhouse. Thank the Lord for TP rolls.
    Lars is an interesting character. Love his channel too... whenever I can get to YT to watch you guys doing things I'm not able to.
    Thanks Lonnie, I haven't seen much of Lars' extensive video collection yet. And, yet to find out his history as a Dane living in the Russian Taiga with a beautiful young wife and rug-rats (ninjas/cute kids).
    Regards from a illness stricken, housebound Aussie.

  • @WayPointSurvival
    @WayPointSurvival 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Another good video, thank you!

  • @davidmorrison3697
    @davidmorrison3697 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Never thought on how to make alternative toilet paper! Thank You. 🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🍁

  • @terryw.milburn8565
    @terryw.milburn8565 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Natures Bounty, Great Demo, Thanks Lonnie & Connie ! Stay Frosty Friends ! ATB T God Bless

  • @dadiusmaximus
    @dadiusmaximus 3 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    This gonna be good! 🤣

  • @davidkurle5418
    @davidkurle5418 3 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    I remember when Lars showed this trick! I would definitely start making it the minute you realize you forgot the tp, though. That stuff's got to be ready when needed! Thanks for the great video, and I hope you two have an awesome weekend!

  • @Kriegsbeil5577
    @Kriegsbeil5577 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Love that you mentioned the "crazy Dane by way of Russia", Lars! I watch both your channels!

  • @johnburgin7478
    @johnburgin7478 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lars , now it makes sense 😁. Thanks the tip. Have a good one

  • @hypo345
    @hypo345 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    That's essential bushcraft for sure.

  • @flowerchild777
    @flowerchild777 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks Lonnie and Lars😊

  • @Gunny-nq1pb
    @Gunny-nq1pb 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Wewh..(wipe brow) at first I thought you were going to use the branches behind you! lol

    • @flymanff
      @flymanff 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I was worried that he was going to show us how to actually use it.😅

    • @Gunny-nq1pb
      @Gunny-nq1pb 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@flymanff Yikes! lol

  • @kennethwilson8633
    @kennethwilson8633 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I was worried when you said to use that stick to wipe and so glad when I saw how. You never really know what people will do on the internet. Have fun stay safe and thanks for the informative videos.

  • @13Nussbaum
    @13Nussbaum 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lonnie and Connie. Perfect. Thanks for the wonderful videos.

  • @michaelkaer
    @michaelkaer 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for the tip. Great resource.

  • @elizium1958
    @elizium1958 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent and always very informative info from you.

  • @m.e.c.j.5125
    @m.e.c.j.5125 ปีที่แล้ว

    Awesome technique. Kindling AND toilet paper !!

  • @JohnGault2398
    @JohnGault2398 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Love Lars' channel.

  • @mikerowland1701
    @mikerowland1701 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Very handy knowledge to have! Thanks!

  • @djbrennan333
    @djbrennan333 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    A friend always tore off the chest pocket from his shirt... for his birthday his wife made him a fishing shirt... it was ALL POCKETS !!! LOL Very funny gift but very useful.

  • @glowton
    @glowton 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    When i saw you pull out a stick i was thinking.."cork?"
    Thank you for awesome video

  • @MichaelR58
    @MichaelR58 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lonnie and Connie, good tip , thanks for sharing, God bless !

  • @northernembersoutdoors1045
    @northernembersoutdoors1045 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great tip, many thanks.

  • @gosmoothgolight7567
    @gosmoothgolight7567 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thanks, Lonnie and Connie! Great thing to keep in mind. And, of course, just like preparing tinder and a "bird's nest" for fire making, prep some of this and put it in a ziplock bag for the inevitable trip to the bushes :) God Bless you both ... kihelakayo!

  • @williamvan909
    @williamvan909 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    lol good job lonnie lol will done will in the winter on long trips it's better to cut up a bag full of old sheets or rags to bring with you but back in my days we use to use old news papers or catalogs lol works good too take care you both stay safe out there... amen... amen

  • @rickkerans8485
    @rickkerans8485 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video. Always like the information you pass on. That would be a great thing to prep in advance and have in a dry bag for emergencies.

  • @Fehrman21114
    @Fehrman21114 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    I had a buddy in high school who was quite a distance runner. If he went for a run on trails in the woods, and came back wearing only one sock, you knew he had had to answer "the call of the wild" beyond that of just traversing the woods for exercise...

    • @humane143imperfection6
      @humane143imperfection6 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      As a (once) long distance barefoot runner myself we typically move as fast as we can letting it fall behind us as we're making our way through the thicket, not unlike the mighty buck 😄. They told me to wear shoes as a child but my feet are so hard now they're essentially tick proof - with the huge resurgence of ticks in the woodlands look who's laughing now! Shoes are necessity certain time's of the year but I can't tell you how awesome it is to blow out a pair of boots hiking and then realize you have no need for them. Word to the wise, I'm one of the exceptions to the rule so unless your heel can cut diamonds I recommend wearing proper footwear in the woods because Lyme disease is nasty.

  • @SeeTheWholeTruth
    @SeeTheWholeTruth 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    LOL. Very interesting trick. Thanks Lonnie.

  • @juliang3995
    @juliang3995 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you Lonnie!

  • @M_Bamboozled
    @M_Bamboozled 3 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    You can trust Lonnie to get straight down to "business". Thanks for covering a real bushcraft need that seldom gets a mention.

  • @crowley357
    @crowley357 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Ah, that tip during the TP shortage...
    Well done! I'll remember this!

  • @guywood67
    @guywood67 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks for the video

  • @the_craptain
    @the_craptain ปีที่แล้ว

    all this before an emergency evacuation! a better man than me could pull this off.

  • @dcslapout5697
    @dcslapout5697 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great tip

  • @gowman813
    @gowman813 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks, Lonnie... informative, as always.

  • @brandon2741
    @brandon2741 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Lol, I remember our half moon having a basket of corn husks and a Montgomery Wards catalog
    Glad to see you two 😊

  • @garryfoote695
    @garryfoote695 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great idea Lonnie, thanks for sharing. Always enjoy your videos!

  • @WestForkWoodsman
    @WestForkWoodsman 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Next up, Lonnie gives a demo, wiping with wood shavings during a wind storm! Enjoyed the video. Soft, fluffy, and moist... Just like corn cobs! 🌽🌽🌽😁

  • @bobswoodlandadventures5722
    @bobswoodlandadventures5722 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Awesome video as always Lonnie and Connie. I remember watching that video from Survival Russia. I have plenty of that natural TP at my new camp. I’m saving the downed birch for fire starter and firewood and to make some more birch oil. Stay safe and be well. Thanks for sharing.

  • @palerider7171
    @palerider7171 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I always learn something Lonnie. Thanks for recommending Bushcraft Russia ... I am subscribed. Looking forward to more great content. The Lord bless you and Connie.

  • @mikeharris50
    @mikeharris50 3 ปีที่แล้ว +29

    WOW, you better start that process before you gotta go or you are going to have find a bushcraft method of cleaning your undies. Like packing food TP is the most important item to pack.

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      During the summer here, packing TP is really not a very high priority since there are so many natural alternatives in the woods. If I have it, I'll use TP but if I don't have it, it is no big deal.
      A Wilderness Pooping Guide
      th-cam.com/video/6r0qor5RcEQ/w-d-xo.html

    • @ghostwriter8631
      @ghostwriter8631 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Food nor tp are high on a survival priority list.

    • @Br1cht
      @Br1cht 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      In a real SHTF situation maybe some people would prioritize things that you can´t get from nature, no?

    • @zargon7222
      @zargon7222 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      2/3 of the world don’t use TP at all! TP is just a luxury item and should never be though of as something required for survival.

    • @JesusSaves86AB
      @JesusSaves86AB 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@Br1cht Yes, definitely horde tp, batteries, and pornos. Tools and knowledge are overrated.

  • @brainclerk4431
    @brainclerk4431 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    great information Lonnie , in the winter it's easy to use a snowball long-sausage shape ! cold, wet and clean !

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I personally do not bother with shaping the snow as for me at least, that is not needed. However when it is below zero Fahrenheit, snow can be a challenging option for several reasons.
      A Wilderness Pooping Guide
      th-cam.com/video/6r0qor5RcEQ/w-d-xo.html

  • @ianfraser9528
    @ianfraser9528 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    By the time you get that done you will be sitting 8inches higher on your
    snow machine. 😂🤣😂 good tip thanks for posting. 👍🙏

  • @mulematt6225
    @mulematt6225 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love lars. He is super awesome. 😉

  • @borismoog1800
    @borismoog1800 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great thanks! Greetings from france!

  • @williamburdon6993
    @williamburdon6993 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I remember a couple of old outhouses that had a box of corn cobs that had been cleaned of corn , there was also a bucket for water , di the corncob in the water and soften it up , use rinse repeat

  • @Miguel_ON65
    @Miguel_ON65 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow! Thank you for your lesson! I have not ever thought in that for such use. Incredible. Thank you a lot for sharing. More than me will know in a hurry! Greetings a lot from Spain

  • @klodoen1
    @klodoen1 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I learn something every time I watch the Far North Bushcraft videos

  • @WhiteCollarWarriorWallStFraudE
    @WhiteCollarWarriorWallStFraudE 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I Always learn something. Thank you both :)

  • @blueamenaa749
    @blueamenaa749 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thamk you so much. God bless you. Maranatha.

  • @phyllismulkey3778
    @phyllismulkey3778 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    good info

  • @randyvinson7736
    @randyvinson7736 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Very helpful information to know, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge God bless and take care

  • @joaquin-jacknava2696
    @joaquin-jacknava2696 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nice. Thanks 👍

  • @westonfurman3833
    @westonfurman3833 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'll try it 👍💯

  • @dirtroadfarmsjimmideanreen2458
    @dirtroadfarmsjimmideanreen2458 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great info Lonny! I think that scraping action might make me go!!! Lol

  • @markcummings6856
    @markcummings6856 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    👍. Portable bidet. Best thing since TP.

    • @greekveteran2715
      @greekveteran2715 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You mean a bottle of water with a hole on the cup? Can that be enough to clean?

    • @mikejay9838
      @mikejay9838 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@greekveteran2715 One woman suggested a sturdy bottle with pop up top (like a sports bottle). My proposed system will include a finish up with a washcloth. Some say its mostly just to dry. Time will tell but since cleaning must be done, it makes more sense to at least minimize it with the use of forcibly applied water.

  • @jemmons2694
    @jemmons2694 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    That’s awesome!

    • @jemmons2694
      @jemmons2694 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I always keep toilet paper in the pack. If I run out there always leaves

  • @JesusSaves86AB
    @JesusSaves86AB 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This will be priceless knowledge when I can no longer buy or sell #2 tickets. Greatly appreciated.

  • @mikejay9838
    @mikejay9838 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks! Interesting alternative to the washcloth idea, which has the downside of needing to be immediately cleaned.

  • @Bushcraftnbaseball
    @Bushcraftnbaseball 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Interesting thanks Lonnie. This is an update to your old video “A Wilderness Pooping Guide” funny but necessary and useful. Thanks

  • @alabamaoutdoors4468
    @alabamaoutdoors4468 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good topic

  • @jackpinesavage1628
    @jackpinesavage1628 3 ปีที่แล้ว +34

    One more reason to learn how to identify poison ivy.

  • @bushingcraftingjoe4030
    @bushingcraftingjoe4030 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video best info iv seen lately God Bless

  • @badgerbush3556
    @badgerbush3556 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Boy golly splinter free toilet paper at last 😁❤️

  • @flymanff
    @flymanff 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wow Lonnie! I thought you was going to show us how to use it, but I’m glad you only went as far as you did. I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work 😉 I’ve done a few videos about things I’ve seen on your channel.

  • @PreparednessVeteran
    @PreparednessVeteran 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very creative, suppose IF leaves are out, it can be combined with leaves.
    A great tip, many thanks.
    All the best.

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Leaves are an option when they are available.
      A Wilderness Pooping Guide
      th-cam.com/video/6r0qor5RcEQ/w-d-xo.html

  • @gabrial3377
    @gabrial3377 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Definately need to plan your toilet events ahead of time. Good to do in the evening by fire to prepare for morning. Keep it in a plastic baggy.
    Great idea. I am going to check out Survival Russia.

  • @heather482
    @heather482 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Connie and Lonnie. I need to pay more attention. I never knew your names rhymed. Much love and respect.

  • @buckshot4428
    @buckshot4428 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Sure beats a pinecone. Back in the day when folks had outhouses they had Sears and Roebuck and Monkey Wards catologues.

  • @bluedogguy
    @bluedogguy 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I did not know about this - thank you!

  • @tuoppi42
    @tuoppi42 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Using snow for wiping is a very refreshing experience, although snow works for washing up as well.

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I personally would not choose to classify using snow in below zero Fahrenheit weather as "refreshing". Yes it works but can be painful in extreme cold.

  • @BBQDad463
    @BBQDad463 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    EXCELLENT! THANKS!😎💙💛

  • @PlainStraightShooter
    @PlainStraightShooter 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lonnie, now that is interesting. I certainly will not forget this trick, but I will be sure to have my squares and if not a extra long t shirt. You take care.

  • @tikkidaddy
    @tikkidaddy 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hey yall...THIS is the REAL survival info we all need, this and the video where Dave Cantaberry talks bout bathing out in your camp with a 5 gallon bucket etc. The last thing you want is gut crawling sick out in the bush😂

  • @volumedealer2716
    @volumedealer2716 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I've been waiting for this episode and it's FINALLY HERE!

  • @RickBelt
    @RickBelt 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    We lived for 2000 years without toilet paper. I can survive without it.

  • @semco72057
    @semco72057 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I see that you are piling up the trees you cut down and is about to burn them and that is good so you don't have to worry about them falling on your cabin. I am a subscriber to Survival Russia as well and have learned some tricks from him during my time watching his videos. That is a neat trick with the wood from the limbs being used to clean up after using the bathroom in the woods. We have oak trees down here in Arkansas and the leaves is what we use when in the woods to clean up with. Thanks for sharing this information with us all.

  • @darrenwallingford7560
    @darrenwallingford7560 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    very good idea, i seen it on lars channel.

  • @00coyote80
    @00coyote80 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love you two!

  • @billhunt892
    @billhunt892 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good to know... a tad late, but good to know .. thanks, enjoy your channel !

  • @mudinmyeye2881
    @mudinmyeye2881 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I call this sh*! Stick !! 😄 I call my good friends this for fun. Like"what's up sh*! Stick?"

  • @claudem.p.7969
    @claudem.p.7969 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    simply unbelievable. Thank you. HOURRA.

  • @Dreoilin
    @Dreoilin 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    I use snow all the time cause who has time when ya really gotta go lol 😆

    • @eatmorenachos
      @eatmorenachos 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I used snow one time. I don't recommend it, though waiting was not an option.

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      A Wilderness Pooping Guide
      th-cam.com/video/6r0qor5RcEQ/w-d-xo.html

    • @Dreoilin
      @Dreoilin 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival I remember that awesome vid!👍 I just sent it to my nephew who is 16.

  • @wayned5872
    @wayned5872 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Charmin of the woods🤣🤣🤣

  • @CanoehoundAdventures
    @CanoehoundAdventures 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good thing that this will not give you slivers... that would NOT be pleasant down there... Ouchie... Thanks For sharing Lonnie and Connie

  • @potawatadingdong
    @potawatadingdong 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Thanks to the virus, I had a paper mask I could use once last year in a pinch. Now I always check for paper in a stall before going.

    • @billhensley8324
      @billhensley8324 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      There's a plummer somewhere thanking you for stopping up a toilet with a surgical mask

  • @patdossenko1820
    @patdossenko1820 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks

  • @Hoonozit
    @Hoonozit 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Lonnie. It is a good alternative. Catch you next time.

  • @cumander469
    @cumander469 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Snow works real good too.

    • @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival
      @Far-North-Bushcraft-Survival  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yes I have personally used snow many times. Snow is not so fun however when temperatures are well below zero Fahrenheit.

  • @bawbaw3096
    @bawbaw3096 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    That’s for all the info

  • @JEEROFUKU
    @JEEROFUKU 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you, winter time is more challenging in wiping situation for some ))) Nice “Bunny” boots BTW👍🏻ATB🙏🏻🍀

  • @zechariahross1444
    @zechariahross1444 ปีที่แล้ว

    "IMake your strokes as long as you can make them" I always do, good sir. Good content

  • @Paulbeck
    @Paulbeck 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    LOL, When nature calls I guess you do whatever it takes. Thanks for the info!!

  • @modestadventurers
    @modestadventurers 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Interesting tip and not a method I have seen before. Atb.