Does anyone else get the warm fuzzies whenever their favourite commanders are mentioned in youtube videos? It makes no difference what is being spoken about them, just the mention of them makes me feel good. Big love to Depala and UW Linvala. Xx
Wonder if this takes into account that mtg used to have blocks with overlapping mechanics (like soulshift in all of Kamigawa sets), which could lead to parasitic decks that wouldn't show up in set-only analysis
I also think they should’ve considered blocks instead of sets, a lot of stylistic decisions and overarching themes do come from subsequent sets in the same block, even if the mechanics themselves change...
I'm really liking the speed-up in pacing of the discussion. You guys are moving at a really nice clip and it keeps me more entertained. Thanks for the content.
This video should take blocks into account. Since when they were a thing the sets within them were designed together. I'd imagine depala or gishath/zacama would be #1 since aether revolt was essentially the same set when it came to their respective color themes in limited (boros and naya respectively)
I think the position of Yorion at 3% makes sense given the themes associated with Niv today - Planeswalkers, Dragons, Jegantha Companion - these are all lists that don't get maximum value from a 5 mana creature that blinks your board (or in Jegantha's case, can't run Yorion at all), but they're the most common themes on the page. Yorion is really good with Niv, but I don't think it's worth running without additional synergies in the 99. A well structured Niv list already draws a ton of cards, but if you're not including the efficient ETB permanents (maybe because you're already full of dragons or gods or 6 mana planeswalkers), then I don't think you want to have an extra chunky card like that. That being said - 3% is probably a sign that there's not as many people out there leveraging ETB/blink strategies with Niv as I'd expect. There's a lot of good stuff out there to blink, that you don't get to include in Azorius / Esper decks that I would have thought we'd be seeing in Niv lists. Maybe if we see the numbers there increase, we'll see Yorion show up in more decks as well.
@@braddtheodd3390 I think they’d be able to use “least amount of staples (top 100 per color)” or “least amount of cards from average list” in decks on the site. For example, spells like Polymorph in Kykar decks probably don’t appear in +80% of decks, however Kykar Polymorph decks are a fun/unique alternative to the standard spellslinger brews.
@@maplz9314 just an example, it’s not the route that’s expressly written on the card as compared to a Korvald type commander. Proposing a way that the stats could identify alternate build paths is all.
@@pistolpete7422 They did exactly this 8 months ago, in their Most Versatile Commanders episode - it checked the average decklist with the amount of decks that had a deck with nothing from the average list (or something like that), to see how different a commander could be from the average list and still have decks that got brewed.
I play Depala and Verazol, and I agree. Vehicles were a big part of Kaladesh and there haven't been enough released since to really make an impact. With Verazol, there weren't a lot of good blue kicker cards until Zendikar Rising. So yeah, big reason for the lack of set diversity in that deck.
Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game. That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway. It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
Thanks so much for this episode, gents. Solid as always 👍 Looking at the results, I was confident Otrimi was gonna be #1, and then I remembered Ikoria and Commander 2020 were separate sets.
You should’ve considered blocks instead of sets, a lot of stylistic decisions and overarching themes do come from subsequent sets in the same block, even if the mechanics themselves change... And even then, considering returning sets and “legacy support” from special sets and/or commanders from precons where they take so much from a single block that won’t show here, like edgar markov and innistrad blocks in general or anything with allies with the first two zendikar blocks, or just like literally any ravnica guild legend running a bunch of guild cards but out of the 9 sets or whatever representing boros or dimir or whatever.
yea not really a good choice for the name, id call it the 10 most set exclusive commanders or something like most mono set commanders. parasitic is 99% of the time a bad thing.
@@atk9989 The reason it's called a "Parasitic" commander because it requires cards to be printed specifically for IT and it alone. Hence, why mutate is there, its because unless you print more cards with a mechanic currently limited to one set, then their card pool is extremely limited.
I have a flicker theme Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck, and Yorion is amazing. Not only does Yorion flicker Niv, it also flickers any other ETB creatures I've played, which I run quite a few of. Other good 2 color flicker effects that Niv can fetch are Turn to Mist, Mistmeadow Witch, and Soulherder. An added bonus of Yorion is that it effectively doubles any effect that flickers multiple creatures, like Ghostway, Ghostly Flicker, and Eerie Interlude; first the flicker spell exiles Niv-Mizzet and Yorion, and then when they come back you get a Niv and Yorion trigger, then flicker Niv a second time with the Yorion trigger. You get to dig 20 cards deep with a single spellcast, often dodging removal at the same time.
I said this in another reply, but figured it bears repeating as a top-level comment: Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game. That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway. It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
I LOVE my Varazol deck... watching opponents faces as you get 6 skyclave relics, 3 cragplate baloth and sitting there as you’ve amassed an army of drakes is priceless.
That's correct. The reason that Tazri has such a high score under this metric appears to be a combination of two major factors. 1. It's the default commander for a deck themed around the Party mechanic. 2. It's worse than other five-color commanders in pretty much every other category, so deckbuilders not doing the Party thing would generally look elsewhere for a commander.
@@TheStephenation 3. Most newer players won't have a lot of older cards, so won't have many/any Ally cards. So throw in the newer Wizards, Rogues, etc from the past handful of sets that they do have, so will likely use a lot from Zendikar Rising (and other Party cards from Zendikar too). It's less a choice for newer players to build 'a party deck' and more their only option to go in if they do have a Tazri.
Nice callout for Decent of the Dragons. I'm about to make that deck and that card is buried in my collection somewhere and I probably wouldn't have thought to include it. Thanks!
For the Yorion / Niv Mizzet challenge, I think there are two reasons. One: Azorius already has many many powerful blink engines, and I found my Azorius slots very limited while building the deck. Also, and I think this is a bigger reason, if you have Yorion you can't have Jegantha as a partner, and Jegantha is one of the best card in the deck as it is.
Hm, is there an episode to see which pre-con commanders have the least changes done to them? Like which pre-con commanders stay closest to the pre-con list?
For the tazri discussion: a war-zard, or war wizard, is absolutely a class and you can play it. Not quite the same thing, but I’m playing a artificer/sorcerer multiclass in my current campaign and I had no idea how much of a menace it would be on the battlefield. I have a higher armor class than the paladin, I can choose not to fail con saves, and my spell list is so massive, there’s something for every occasion. War magic is the real deal.
This subject name was a little misleading, I thought it would be more along the lines of "Commanders that serve the same function as another commander, with less decks" like the two elder dinosaurs from Ixalan block, where one is much more played than the other. The commander with less decks would be parasitic to the more popular commander. But I think I get where the name comes from as yall used it
Apart from dominaria repritlands the only dominariacard I run in Muldrotha is Multani, or mommy. Weird that it is not on more ppl's list. Guess I am just playing Multani in the deck for flavour reasons. opened the both on prerelease and they have been in the deck ever since.
how is aegar parisitic? he is an amazing wizard tribal commander. very fun to play,and very cheap (full deck, excluding manabase , which i proxy because i already have them, just in another deck) was like 40 to 50 $
They criteria is just that the amount of cards from the same set. Its mostly cause theres not much gaint matter cards in blue out of the set or in general
Because most decks will build him as a Giant commander, not a Wizard commander. There have been a ton of good wizard options over the years and those are competing with him for their builds, but this is the first real Giant commander option. That is where the #s are coming from. Not saying he is not good with wizards but people are really happy to be able to build Giant so he gets the spotlight for those cards
That Alesha/Varragoth interaction seems like bad rules design. The true rules are very counterintuitive; it should work the way you expect it to. But there's probably some combo I've never heard of that makes that impossible.
Yeah, so I was excited to listen to this one. Except Parasitic commanders would be ones that leech off others. You're discussing commanders who are in a symbiotic relationship with their own set. Not what I signed up for watching.
I was so excited to see a video about commanders that play with the opponents decks but we ended up with an episode about super limited and therefore plain weak commanders...yay. There is a better word than parasitic for the cards they must use - it's mandatory.
"Parasitic" is the word Wizards of the Coast uses to describe cards that rely heavily upon other cards from their same set. Links provided below. We have never and will never refer to any commanders or cards as "mandatory" because we do not believe and do not want to imply that any person is *required* to use specific cards (or to behave a certain way) to be able to play and enjoy EDH. magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2017-2017-08-28 markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/5669806237/whats-the-difference-between-parasitic-and-linear
They aren't talking about parasitic commanders. A lot of the Commanders aren't limited at all (a point they brought up about Tazri), but the point is they use cards *from their own set*. And as I've said in another couple of comments now: Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game. That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway. It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
Numberphile: Pi shows up in weird places
EDHRECast: hold my ice tea
Matt Parker: I'm gonna try to approximate pi by using Magic: The Gathering
I think I read the average number of turns in a cEDH game is very close to 3.14, too. A tiny little bit higher (3.17 or something), but close enough!
Does anyone else get the warm fuzzies whenever their favourite commanders are mentioned in youtube videos? It makes no difference what is being spoken about them, just the mention of them makes me feel good. Big love to Depala and UW Linvala. Xx
Wonder if this takes into account that mtg used to have blocks with overlapping mechanics (like soulshift in all of Kamigawa sets), which could lead to parasitic decks that wouldn't show up in set-only analysis
I also think they should’ve considered blocks instead of sets, a lot of stylistic decisions and overarching themes do come from subsequent sets in the same block, even if the mechanics themselves change...
I'm really liking the speed-up in pacing of the discussion. You guys are moving at a really nice clip and it keeps me more entertained. Thanks for the content.
This video should take blocks into account. Since when they were a thing the sets within them were designed together. I'd imagine depala or gishath/zacama would be #1 since aether revolt was essentially the same set when it came to their respective color themes in limited (boros and naya respectively)
Yorion is almost the secret commander of my Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck, and he is amazing. Great challenge from the listener
I think the position of Yorion at 3% makes sense given the themes associated with Niv today - Planeswalkers, Dragons, Jegantha Companion - these are all lists that don't get maximum value from a 5 mana creature that blinks your board (or in Jegantha's case, can't run Yorion at all), but they're the most common themes on the page.
Yorion is really good with Niv, but I don't think it's worth running without additional synergies in the 99. A well structured Niv list already draws a ton of cards, but if you're not including the efficient ETB permanents (maybe because you're already full of dragons or gods or 6 mana planeswalkers), then I don't think you want to have an extra chunky card like that.
That being said - 3% is probably a sign that there's not as many people out there leveraging ETB/blink strategies with Niv as I'd expect. There's a lot of good stuff out there to blink, that you don't get to include in Azorius / Esper decks that I would have thought we'd be seeing in Niv lists. Maybe if we see the numbers there increase, we'll see Yorion show up in more decks as well.
Do a video on the most creative strategies you’ve seen with commanders
Don't know if "creative" is a very viable theme since the episodes are so related to the statistcs of the website :/
@@braddtheodd3390 I think they’d be able to use “least amount of staples (top 100 per color)” or “least amount of cards from average list” in decks on the site.
For example, spells like Polymorph in Kykar decks probably don’t appear in +80% of decks, however Kykar Polymorph decks are a fun/unique alternative to the standard spellslinger brews.
@@pistolpete7422 kykar polymorph is far from an original deck.
@@maplz9314 just an example, it’s not the route that’s expressly written on the card as compared to a Korvald type commander. Proposing a way that the stats could identify alternate build paths is all.
@@pistolpete7422 They did exactly this 8 months ago, in their Most Versatile Commanders episode - it checked the average decklist with the amount of decks that had a deck with nothing from the average list (or something like that), to see how different a commander could be from the average list and still have decks that got brewed.
I play Depala and Verazol, and I agree.
Vehicles were a big part of Kaladesh and there haven't been enough released since to really make an impact.
With Verazol, there weren't a lot of good blue kicker cards until Zendikar Rising. So yeah, big reason for the lack of set diversity in that deck.
Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game.
That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway.
It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
How does verazol play out? What do you end up hoping to copy?
Really cool episode! I don't know if I would've chosen "parasitic" as the descriptor, but I greatly enjoyed all of the polysyllabolic wordplay! 👍
Symbiotic was closer to what they were looking for.
@@styfen I was thinking maybe Hermetic? Lol like doesnt come outside of its own set much
i am simple man, i see big lizard, i click
Same man same
That's no way to speak about Dana.
Before watching: Everything that has mutate on it
Thanks so much for this episode, gents. Solid as always 👍
Looking at the results, I was confident Otrimi was gonna be #1, and then I remembered Ikoria and Commander 2020 were separate sets.
You should’ve considered blocks instead of sets, a lot of stylistic decisions and overarching themes do come from subsequent sets in the same block, even if the mechanics themselves change...
And even then, considering returning sets and “legacy support” from special sets and/or commanders from precons where they take so much from a single block that won’t show here, like edgar markov and innistrad blocks in general or anything with allies with the first two zendikar blocks, or just like literally any ravnica guild legend running a bunch of guild cards but out of the 9 sets or whatever representing boros or dimir or whatever.
I really thought this episode would take a different direction, with Commanders that steal permanents or something XD good episode though!
yea not really a good choice for the name, id call it the 10 most set exclusive commanders or something like most mono set commanders. parasitic is 99% of the time a bad thing.
@@atk9989 The reason it's called a "Parasitic" commander because it requires cards to be printed specifically for IT and it alone. Hence, why mutate is there, its because unless you print more cards with a mechanic currently limited to one set, then their card pool is extremely limited.
@11:26 Joey says 3 color commander when talking about Aegar the UR commander
Yeah, he was trying to say three mana instead of three colors. Averna's Cascade must have addled the brain!
I have a flicker theme Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck, and Yorion is amazing. Not only does Yorion flicker Niv, it also flickers any other ETB creatures I've played, which I run quite a few of. Other good 2 color flicker effects that Niv can fetch are Turn to Mist, Mistmeadow Witch, and Soulherder. An added bonus of Yorion is that it effectively doubles any effect that flickers multiple creatures, like Ghostway, Ghostly Flicker, and Eerie Interlude; first the flicker spell exiles Niv-Mizzet and Yorion, and then when they come back you get a Niv and Yorion trigger, then flicker Niv a second time with the Yorion trigger. You get to dig 20 cards deep with a single spellcast, often dodging removal at the same time.
I said this in another reply, but figured it bears repeating as a top-level comment: Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game.
That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway.
It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
I LOVE my Varazol deck... watching opponents faces as you get 6 skyclave relics, 3 cragplate baloth and sitting there as you’ve amassed an army of drakes is priceless.
Isn't there no Allies in Zendikar rising? they just added Ally on Tazri
to make her work with the older Zendikar sets
That's correct. The reason that Tazri has such a high score under this metric appears to be a combination of two major factors.
1. It's the default commander for a deck themed around the Party mechanic.
2. It's worse than other five-color commanders in pretty much every other category, so deckbuilders not doing the Party thing would generally look elsewhere for a commander.
@@TheStephenation 3. Most newer players won't have a lot of older cards, so won't have many/any Ally cards. So throw in the newer Wizards, Rogues, etc from the past handful of sets that they do have, so will likely use a lot from Zendikar Rising (and other Party cards from Zendikar too). It's less a choice for newer players to build 'a party deck' and more their only option to go in if they do have a Tazri.
This was a great show you guys thanks
Nice callout for Decent of the Dragons. I'm about to make that deck and that card is buried in my collection somewhere and I probably wouldn't have thought to include it. Thanks!
For the Yorion / Niv Mizzet challenge, I think there are two reasons. One: Azorius already has many many powerful blink engines, and I found my Azorius slots very limited while building the deck. Also, and I think this is a bigger reason, if you have Yorion you can't have Jegantha as a partner, and Jegantha is one of the best card in the deck as it is.
Dana Roach is the front side, and the cap-wearing alter ego is Rana Doach
yup adding yorion to my niv miz dragon tribal for that value... flickering atarka/bladewing sounds cool as well
Do a video on secret commanders
Secret commanders? What the heck is that
@@kurtishendrix Cards which your deck needs to function which is the big brain move but arent your commanders. Like Brudiclad in a token deck
Hm, is there an episode to see which pre-con commanders have the least changes done to them? Like which pre-con commanders stay closest to the pre-con list?
For the tazri discussion: a war-zard, or war wizard, is absolutely a class and you can play it. Not quite the same thing, but I’m playing a artificer/sorcerer multiclass in my current campaign and I had no idea how much of a menace it would be on the battlefield. I have a higher armor class than the paladin, I can choose not to fail con saves, and my spell list is so massive, there’s something for every occasion. War magic is the real deal.
my bet: the highest nummbers are commanders that have a unice mechanic that came out at that set (like mutate)
I seriously thought these are commanders that leech off from the power of opponents' decks. You know, like Sen Triplets. I hate Sen Triplets.
This subject name was a little misleading, I thought it would be more along the lines of "Commanders that serve the same function as another commander, with less decks" like the two elder dinosaurs from Ixalan block, where one is much more played than the other. The commander with less decks would be parasitic to the more popular commander. But I think I get where the name comes from as yall used it
Vadrok is my favorite parasitic commander. Even threw in a Keep Safe for flavor. :)
That was Matt’s first joke that made me laugh. Lul
I completely lost it at “I’m proud of you”- Matt
I really thought that these are decks that depend on opponent's deck like sen triplets lol
Savage Joey.... We're going to have a ton of great guests.... oh, and also Gavin..... I guess *paraphrasing, obviously*
Apart from dominaria repritlands the only dominariacard I run in Muldrotha is Multani, or mommy. Weird that it is not on more ppl's list. Guess I am just playing Multani in the deck for flavour reasons. opened the both on prerelease and they have been in the deck ever since.
Parasaurolophus score
Love my Illuna deck. But i made mine more Beast tribal.
I would love to know the most parasitic commanders for each theme...? Like yes Gavi nest warden isn't parasitic, but which cycling commander is?
Descent of the Dragons is so good in so many situations. I’ve used it as a wincon, I’ve used it as removal. Awesome card!
No Otrimi? Mutate was only in Ikoria!
y'all forgot to talk about the upcoming DND/Magic set in the tazri deck
Wonder how high otrimi would be if c20 was connected to ikoria?
Steamed. The proper nautical term is steamed, Matt.
Calling BS on "boast", says attacked not was declared as attacker, good job designers :(
You forgot Modern Horizons has Snow cards
Answer, anything that involves energy
Really!? No Lin Sivvi?
how is aegar parisitic? he is an amazing wizard tribal commander. very fun to play,and very cheap (full deck, excluding manabase , which i proxy because i already have them, just in another deck) was like 40 to 50 $
They criteria is just that the amount of cards from the same set. Its mostly cause theres not much gaint matter cards in blue out of the set or in general
You didn't pay very much attention to this video and it shows. Lol
Because most decks will build him as a Giant commander, not a Wizard commander. There have been a ton of good wizard options over the years and those are competing with him for their builds, but this is the first real Giant commander option. That is where the #s are coming from. Not saying he is not good with wizards but people are really happy to be able to build Giant so he gets the spotlight for those cards
You can Mutate on any non-human creature
That Alesha/Varragoth interaction seems like bad rules design. The true rules are very counterintuitive; it should work the way you expect it to. But there's probably some combo I've never heard of that makes that impossible.
The whole time they were talking about the average score being a funny number I was like ????? 69? How?
I'm here for the penetration talk, also I am an adult and I apologize for being inmature (:
Otrimi (spell check) pre-con deck Ikoria is parasitic
It's fine, Varragoth can boast next turn!
Yeah, so I was excited to listen to this one. Except Parasitic commanders would be ones that leech off others.
You're discussing commanders who are in a symbiotic relationship with their own set. Not what I signed up for watching.
Paracitism not paraciticism
TL:DW
Sets with tribes typically use cards from the set with the tribe.
I was so excited to see a video about commanders that play with the opponents decks but we ended up with an episode about super limited and therefore plain weak commanders...yay. There is a better word than parasitic for the cards they must use - it's mandatory.
"Parasitic" is the word Wizards of the Coast uses to describe cards that rely heavily upon other cards from their same set. Links provided below. We have never and will never refer to any commanders or cards as "mandatory" because we do not believe and do not want to imply that any person is *required* to use specific cards (or to behave a certain way) to be able to play and enjoy EDH.
magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2017-2017-08-28
markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/5669806237/whats-the-difference-between-parasitic-and-linear
They aren't talking about parasitic commanders. A lot of the Commanders aren't limited at all (a point they brought up about Tazri), but the point is they use cards *from their own set*. And as I've said in another couple of comments now:
Another huge reason they don't even mention (and didn't mention for the "what sets are popular?" episodes) is that, as we know, Magic is a fast-growing game.
That means lots of players are new and have only recently started buying product. This means, for example, for Verazol, they do not HAVE many of the old kicker cards, so can only play with what they have - the most recent ones, from the one of the two recent sets with it in, and most likely have more Zendikar Rising than Dominaria cards anyway.
It also explains why there are so many new Commanders on the list in the first place - people that have decks with older Commanders have likely had them a while, and are more enfranchised players, and so have been adding cards from lots of sets since to them. Whereas people with newer Commanders are - on average - newer players with less cards overall, and what they do have are more recent cards from the sets the Commanders came from in the first place.
I hope we see more mutate 😭
“Worzordz”
Brokkos?? Illuna??
You mean Spacegodzilla and King Ghidorah. Lol