I can’t thank everyone enough for the positive response to this video. I had no idea my first one would perform so well! 😅😅 The responses have been very motivating! More videos to come, for sure.
it was also the fact that his age was identified as one thing right up until the point the acolyte ran into a plot continuity problem. It was then retroactively changed.
Honestly, I don't know if it's just because I was blindly nostalgic or in love with the Clone Wars series but. I've come to realize, Dave Filoni didn't save Star Wars, he just made it needlessly more complicated and didn't give a rat's ass about continuity with the pre-established universe.
Maybe we praised him for CW because it was a very big show with lots of episodes, and not all of them were that good but a handful that were great eclipsed all filler/mediocre ones. And it ended strong too.
ki adi mundi age WAS NOT THE ISSUE! It was the fact that he saw the events of the acolyte and HE HIMSELF SAID “but there has been no sith for over a millennia”
Bro, everyone that saw the Sith are DEAD. The Jedi think Sol did it and even without that, it can easily be written off as some dark Jedi doing it. There is no issue.
@@orbaitv5991 this is ~100 years before even if they believed that was true, it doesn’t explain “millennia” if you don’t know what that means it means 1,000 years. Which means it directly contradicts episode 3
@@orbaitv5991the visceral reaction was because of any Jedi that could have been chosen to be a part of this new series in the past, it was THIS guy who said THAT thing, and before that moment was assumed had not been born. I get it was an overreaction in some respects, but I also understand why some fans felt needled by what was perceived as a wink/nod to larger scale corruption and incompetence in the CW era. It was a “everything you knew and loved might be a lie” moment, I guess
Here to point out obligitorialy that the EU hirearchy was nowhere near as messy as people keep acting like it was and alot of the misconceptions have been spread falsely and in bad taste
A lot of the more glaring issues involve stuff like early Bantam era books writing stuff that doesn't jive with the prequels or just like, dates being off. There's stuff more egregious than that, like Mandalorians claiming to have had a mission to kidnap Leia during the Clone Wars, but it's pretty easy to ignore or write off stuff like that, and there were people dedicated to reconciling the inconsistencies. They genuinely don't care now because it's not supposed to be a single consistent continuity, it's supposed to be a mythology now.
@1000g2g3g4g800999 Even that stuff was handled tactfully by retcons in the EU. Boba fett's 3 different backstories were explained and delt with by the open seasons and blood ties comics, the issues with the clone wars before everyone knew what they were, were handled by the Republic comics and made to make sense. The big continuity issues didnt start until TCW and even then, though the retcons were rough and I hated them personally, they at least tried. The EU had its continuity snarls, but it always course corrected, wheras the post buy-out canon seems to only wish to gloss over issues and pretend that they don't exist. This unwillingness to course correct and retcon takes away from the suspension of disbelief that this is all one big interconnected universe and makes it more like a choose your own adventure novel than a precise overarching continuity. Seeing this happen over the years has made me desire less and less to give the post buy-out canon a chance and is why I remain such an ardent supporter of having the EU reinstated as an alternative, equally valid continuity for fans to follow.
@@Manda-LORE Agreed. As much as I'd like to see legends continue, I don't think it's especially likely anytime unless it's maybe officially releasing some book that was finished, but never released. Considering they went through the trouble of editing out legends reference in certain books to release canon versions, I could also maybe see something happening with the books that were going to be legends, but were then edited to not contain references to legends material before their canon release.
Many have pointed out that TCW is inconsistent with not only the EU but even the movies themselves. People like to talk about how Anakin and Grievous keep narrowly avoiding meeting but then of course Obi-Wan and Grievous keep fighting for some reason which then makes Grievous telling him he's been trained in the Jedi arts pointless because Obi-Wan would already know that after dueling countless times. Obi-Wan and Anakin also meet Dooku multiple times in the show which undermines "this time we'll do it together" in RoTS. Anakin doesn't even really act like his movie counterpart. I've gotten up to about halfway through season 3 of TCW and I think it's a mixed bag. I definitely prefer the micro-series and Republic comics which I've recently started reading. TCW isn't even all that hardcore by comparison.
Dave is literally telling us that Star Wars continuity is whatever anyone can see it as, there is no main continuity, that idea has been long gone since T-Canon arrived.
Also, difference between Lucas and Filoni is very simple: Lucas is the creator of the worldbuilding, it's clearly his world. He came up with these ideas and of course he has a right as a creator to ignore how other writers interpret them. The other writers are basically "guests" that were allowed for creating. One of those "guests" shouldn't have more importance than the other and they should respect each other works as a valid part of the continuity if a single continuity was meant to be.
However, since you're talking purely about respecting an author's/writer's work, shouldn't that be applied to the other writers besides Lucas where Lucas can't and shouldn't disrespect their work and throw them away? Because, what's the point of all these stories if they can just be dropped just like that? They helped expand his world to places beyond what he would've been capable of otherwise.
@@موسى_7 No, Lucas wasn't as involved in TCW as people like to think. He basically showed up every now and then and just looked at some things and left. He would also occasionally make suggestions. But no, he was not involved in the day to day.
I thought the Issue with Ki Adi was with his quote of "The Sith have been Extinct for over a thousand Millenia". His involvement in the show brought that into question.
It was also that, but the thing with that is, "viewers" already know that what Ki-Mundi believes is not the truth because A. Darth Plagues was confirmed to exist in episode III and B. Master Syfo Dyas proves there were already conspracies in the Jedi Order. In his case, stemming back at least a decade before the prequels.
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He didn't see the Sith in Acolyte series Also witnesses were killed by Qimir so the secret is covered
That line sort of demonstrates why he shouldn't have been put in the show, but I was under the impression when I saw him the idea was to put him in deliberately as a character who wouldn't actually learn the truth, but to present him as the type that who'd maybe be more willing to believe it, or to continue demonstrating his skepticism alternatively. Do I think the show utilized him well in either of those ways? Not really.
It doesn't really matter if it was right before TPM or not. The fact that they could go ten years without knowing something was going on is realistic to the oversight problem they would naturally would have, which lends itself to conspiracies in the order. AOTC is about discovering a conspiracy to some unknown (to the Jedi) end. So just because Ki-Mundi says what he believes to true, doesn't mean that is the truth. Just like we could chalk up Kylo Ren not being able to go deep enough into Rey's mind to know the whole truth about her origins/what exactly happened to her parents... More over, the existence of Darth Plagues also points out that not all of the Jedi were aware. which means they were either all willfully ignoarant or there were cover ups. But we also know with the existence of the High Republic itself and/or the line Obi-wan tells Luke in ANH about the Jedi being in there prime at some point, tells us that something changed the order at some point. So The Acolyte was the beginning of that story, as THR established it was the Jedi in their prime. It's easy to contrive reasons for most of this stuff, but some of the fans want to make this hard on themselves so they have excuses to treat other parts of the fandom or thee creatives/artists like garbage.
The one thing I would like to understand about Filoni is the obsession with Ahsoka. I can’t tell if it’s a sincere belief that she is a deep, complex, and powerful character or he is attracted to her like Tarantino is with feet.
He´s a bad fanfic writer who always self-inserts himself as some bratty, obnoxious Mary Sue, and because of his narcissism he can´t kill off or sideline his pet Mary Sues who are basically him combined with his dream waifu in the world of SW. It is just immaturity, vulnerable narcissism, hatred against more talented authors, hatred againts more popular characters, hatred against real life "Stacies" he can´t have and against "Chads" who have them. All of his work reads as his personal revenge fantasy against everyone and everything which triggers his inferiority complex.
Well I always thought as more of her being a character he and George worked on together and she is basically the best character still living after the sequels
@@Mouse_Metal I definitely do. Seeing how quickly your original comment devolved into calling him essentially an incel with an inferiority complex in such a specific and detailed manner, gives me the impression you are projecting.
After all this years i can say it Filoni is overrated and his fans will protect all his content just because was made by him doesn't matter if ti was good or bad
Dave is a tourist at best. It's clear his understanding of Star Wars is surface-level, and that's being generous. He's like a crow finding something shiny on Wookieepedia articles. He also has a deeply-unhealthy obsession with his OCs, Rex and Ahsoka.
We've reached a point where a history nerd with no personal interest in Star Wars, Tony Gilroy, is able to put out the best Star Wars media project since the OT -- all while retconning the canon of three trilogies and multiple TV-Y7 cartoons *LESS* than the guy who made said cartoons.
I’m a bit confused, in what way can Filoni be held responsiblr for the whole diminishing of the franchise as he is no member of the almighty story group as the firstly threw out the complete EU ( probably for not having ever read any book) and then let Filoni use some of the characters of the EU characters in his take on the SW-galaxy. I think he gives some hommage to the EU in stead of having a writer for a series which main reason for being hired is thinking Anakin blew up a deathstar. Sorry shit in produces shit out. And as a sceintist I should give references. My sources are wookiepedia and the shamefull interview of the former assistent to and her creative team on creating A
If anything Ernesto "Che" Guevara... I mean Saw Gerrera (a character created in The Clone Wars), was at his best written in Andor, and I still think he was well written in The Clone Wars, Rebels, and Rogue One.
@@cloak211 That encapsulates all 6 of George Lucas' movies. They're the only true canon as far as I'm concerned. Tony Gilroy's work is just good fanfiction.
I've hated him since I started reading the EU a few years ago, and learning more about the production history of the Clone Wars, and the various creative decisions Filoni has been involved in throughout the years. I'm glad people are finally starting to realize just how much he's contributed to the current Star Wars rot. It seems as if there has been a large fandom shift against him in the last few years.
Clone wars show was pretty good-- one of the best things from my childhood. Mind elaborating how its production led to the current state of star wars. I'd say the main problem is Kathleen Kennedy. Bitch is the reason for acolyte even existing.
It’s incredible how people like you guys are rallying around hatred of a man who actually cares deeply about Star Wars. You’re mad at him because you personify him as this evil man who got rid of your beloved EU, but George Lucas himself stated in 2005 that the EU was never canon to anything. Yes, he said there were many things he liked in it, but it had nothing to do with 1-6, it could be replaced at anytime. The Micro series was an experiment and did very well, but after Episode 3, Lucas wanted to flesh out TCW timeline with tons of stories and ideas. Anakin having a padawan was George’s idea, hiring Filoni was George’s idea, Filoni didn’t do anything without the blessing of Lucas first. Stop having this irrational hatred of Dave Filoni.
@@IvanKinkle False. Lucas had no problem with the EU being canon. You mistextualized his words. Even then, LucasLicensing made it crystal clear that the EU was 100% canon, and Lucas never told them to say otherwise. There were actually promises before TCW released that the show would maintain continuity with the EU, and then it didn't. It actually destroyed continuity so much that Filoni's staff kicked an author out of her own series and made her abandon Star Wars writing altogether. Filoni actually admitted to deceiving Lucas before (final scene in the Ahsoka Trial arc). He's a fraud that had very little oversight from Lucas, and as we hear from the beginning of this video, little respect for the work of others on this massive multimedia cooperation.
Honestly I think it's intentional. Filoni never cared about a consistent canon. But Disney didn't want Lord of the Rings in sci-fi it wanted Marvel where story get rebooted every decade and there's lower expectations.
@@TheChristianPsychopath I haven't seen the interview before this video, but I started thinking it was deliberate after rewatching some of The Clone Wars. You can tell they're aware of stuff like what Quinlan Vos's character is supposed to be, but they clearly don't care how there is no room for this episode in his story because of what he's preoccupied with for the entirety of Republic during the war. And the change in how his character behaves, I could maybe see Quinlan being like that, but not during the Clone Wars per his previous depictions. Then there's just Filoni (or someone else) trampling all over what's in current canon comics and books in TV shows.
Great video mate! That Sam Witwer quote in the beginning was a significant revelation to me. It all makes sense now! Filoni sees each entry into the continuity as if it's a story being recounted rather than a depiction of the actual events. What an illuminating insight into his motives as a creator.
I already knew that was more or less Filoni's perspective, I just hadn't heard that quote from Witwer before. It's really the way he expressed it that kind of shocked me.
The thing about Lucas' previous canon hierarchy is that it allowed for storytelling flexibility. What he personally created (the movies) take precedence over all other works. Other works (TV, comics, novels, etc.) could be placed before, between, and after these foundational pinpoints, allowing fans and creators to build their own subjective canon without destroying the in-universe consistency.
4:12 ok so you got this wrong. People are mad that ki adi mundi was in the show cause in the prequels he said "the sith have been extinct for a millennium" not that his birth was messed up but because this new "canon" contradicts already existing canon.
No, people were genuinely upset that he had a different age between continuities. While yes, it is a MASSIVE worldbuilding screwup to have the Sith return in Mundi's lifetime, the actual birth date changing is the issue most brought up, which is a bad faith criticism.
@@TheSEAempire I’d say most brought it up in relation to mundi’s comment in the phantom menace. All in all people wouldn’t mind his age changing that much if it wasn’t for that massive narrative plot hole and the fact that it feels like Disney puts in characters for fan service and no other real reason.
I take continuity and consistency in a very high regard when it comes to storytelling. For me, when the writers don't have much interest in the integrity of the continuity, it tells me they don't hold any value in my attention to their story and the my emotional investment in the plot and characters in the story, because if in the next feature of this continuity doesn't align at all with the previous, then I might as well not have seen/read the previous entry.
No. Bleeding a cyber crystal does not follow current canon in the Acolyte. Vader had to push really hard to overpower the will of his crystal, which is consistent in canon. The Acolyte did not because it stepped on all of Legends and Canon. Mundi doesn’t make sense and of course no canon explanation was given for why his entire species could live much much longer. The Twins contradicts THE 6 MOVIES from George so you can’t get more uncanon then that. No one is Anakin, only he is the Chosen One and no one can be conceived as he can. It’s literally discussed in episode 1 & 3.
The crystal also has to be removed from the saber. I'm sure Vader struggled as the part of him that was Anakin was still lingering hence the vision before he truly committed to the darkside. Dagan's rage was lingering for 200 years which is why it was easier for him. He was already set in his ways in jedi survivor. The Acolyte's approach was just bad but at that point one is expecting too much.
It's still written in canon that mundis species don't live that long the females of mundis race live longer and there max lifespan is 100 years so mundi being in acolyte is total bs I remember arguing that with a failoni dick rider and boy do they lose there shite when you call it out.
There is a little bit in the opening interview snippet with Sam Witwer that I would like to highlight. When he talks about Filoni's statements about stories being different, there is this strange verbal sleight of hand at play. "It's good if the stories are different." "It's great to make the audience seek out different stories and get different perspectives." And yes, obviously we don't want all our stories to be the same. And yes, obviously it can be a good thing to provide a different perspective on similar events. There is however a huge difference between "changing our perspective of a given event" and "changing the facts of the event itself". And this is what Filoni is doing. Who exactly saved young Caleb Dume is not a matter of perspective, the events are wildly different with no room for reconciliation. And no this is not excusable by saying "it's all tall tales told after the fact". This was true for mythological stories, which were originally communicated verbally and had no specific creator or license or unique place in legal systems. And if they did, said legal systems are long since gone. Star Wars on the other hand does have a specific creator, it has a large number of people officially involved in its development, it is licensed and it holds a particular legal status due to copyright laws. Beyond that, it is even marketed as one cohesive continuity. And if it isn't, then that just undermines the integrity of the franchise and the investment of the audience. Why am I supposed to care about a compelling or emotional bit of character development if it can just be undone by the whim of the next person in the director's chair? Even if the catharsis worked in the moment, it would be inevitably tainted by the knowledge that it's been overwritten. And once you realize that this applies to literally every part of your favorite story, then all investment is out the window.
I mean, Dave Filoni has made it clear already that he views Star Wars as more of mythology than a concrete story already. And apparently that's more just the position in general at Lucasfilm now. And if that's how they want to play it, they shouldn't really be calling things canon and non-canon, but here we are. And yeah, the way they were marketing things after relegating the EU to legends was incredibly misleading for the approach they have now. The only real way to make sense of Legends being a thing now given this, is to see it as preserving the prior continuity in a way, but that's obviously not what the purpose of doing that was. It was so they could freely ignore all of it when making new stories starting with Rebels and the Sequel trilogy.
I’m sorry but Warhammer has the most changed canon ever. Warhammer has so many retcons compared to even Disney Star Wars. Some I dislike some I love but calling Warhammer stable or consistent shows a lack of knowledge about the hole lore
okay lets hold up here, you are ignoring a lot of red tape surrounding those books. A lot of Warhammer fans are starting to turn on the HH books and even state they ruined 40k as a whole.
The difference between retcons made by Filoni and those made before him is that pre-2008 contradictions were relatively minor and were a side effect of having a single multimedia franchise based around a single continuity, with subsequent guidebooks coming up with intelligent ways to reconcile these inconsistencies without bias towards one source, while Filoni's retcons are both blatant and irreconcilable. There was a time when I thought that his stories could be rationalized with the preexisting material, and it took me far too long to realize that this was impossible. That being said, there are times when retcons can work, which are those aforementioned times when a work comes up with an in-universe reason for the confusion. One of my favorite examples comes from _Andor,_ which established that Cassian was from the planet Kenari, rather than Fest, as stated in sources like the _Rogue One Visual Dictionary._ The show explains this when Maarva offhandedly mentions that she and Clem had falsified Cassian's records to claim that he was born on Fest, which is something I didn't notice at first, but appreciate more and more as time goes on.
@@dutbud9049 That's because he didn't. He just popped in every so often to offer suggestions. Lucas may not have been directing, but he was still involved in other films.
"If lucas was in Filoni's place..." then he wouldnt make that mistake. He loved star wars like his own child and tried really really hard to keep all of his own star wars works internally consistent with eachother. Of course, he couldnt micromanage every EU writer, but at least he made an attempt at keeping his own work consustent.
And those writers could follow the rules George set out and make excellent work failoni he trashed thrawn to hell in rebels he was just a raging ruthless physcopath with no moral compass at all then in ashoka the live action rebels 5th season he brings him in and makes him a complete and utter moron.
One of the biggest reasons for seeing new stories in the canon is that they are all equally “real” and canon, and are all meant to fit into eachother well, not that they have annoying conflicting details, that makes me want to see other content even less!
While not perfect continuity wise the EU wasn't nearly as bad until TCW aired. Were there problems before that show aired? Yes. But TCW what's a whole nother level of retconning.
I stan Republic, but Sora Bulq isn't even 100% consistent in that comic (paired with the Jedi: Mace Windu one shot, which is part of the same project). No where near as egregious as a lot what happened thanks to TCW.
I feel like that one episode of Star Wars: Rebels where an inquisitor uses her spinning lightsaber like a helicopter tells you everything you need to know about Dave Filoni as a writer.
Ridley Scott is the Dave Filoni of the Alien franchise. Continues to ruin it by stupid retcons and whatnot that ruin it’s universe’s lore and also the mystique and scariness that the Xenomorphs once had.
Dave Filoni is the kind of guy that would completely destroy all of Star Wars if it meant he can shove his OCs in the ashes, just look at what he was gonna do to Revan in TCW. Its no wonder hes happy to work with Kathleen Kennedy.
Clone Wars micro series is so much better then filoni's clone wars and its not even close. CW 03 Actually connects ep 2 & 3, It stays consistent with anakin's character and developts him from his state in ep 2 to ep 3. It also dosen't retcon the clones by giving them emotions and letting them resist order 66. Dooku's character gets destroyed, For some reason dooku is so fkn evil in filoni's CW its so against his character in ep 2 & 3. Also having dooku fight anakin 2 more times and fighting anakin and obi-wan togheter again breaks the dialogue between them in ep 3 "This time we will take him togheter" implying that they have never fought him together. Also anakin's "My power has doubled since we last met count" and dooku's "Ive been looking forward to this" this proves the original vison of them not having fought dooku in years. The seperatist leaders. Ep 2 builds up the seperatist leaders which the 03 cw shows them being defeaded and captured while 08 cw drops them completly and Replaced them with others. Grievous. Grievous fights obi-wan multiple times even tho its implied and felt in ep 3 that this is the first time they fight, Obi-wan even looks surprised at the four arms. Also why would he tell obi-wan "I have been trained in your jedi arts by count dooku" The republic & jedi are idiots. They find out that their enemies made rhe clones and they just go "Oh well lets just drop it and move on duh" Making them look dumb as they know that their enemies could use the clones.
I’m not a Star Wars fan like that, a casual enjoyer if anything, and that microseries to me is the best Star Wars content outside of the original movies and some of the games.
>Dooku's character gets destroyed, For some reason dooku is so fkn evil in filoni's CW its so against his character in ep 2 & 3. Looks like someone never read the ROTF novelization.
I have always been skeptical about Filoni. Especially when everyone thought of him as about some sort of star wars Jesus. Never ever had he do anything remotely impressive.
An excellent example of why stories need a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end. Without any of these, stories will always devolve into endless slop.
I hate to admit it. But this isn't wrong. Dave Filoni was at his best when he was telling George Lucas "no thats a bad idea. tweak it this way." Filoni is now Lucas without him. No one in the room saying "no thats a bad idea. try this instead." It is most evident with Ahsoka. He hasn't had a damn clue what to do with Ahsoka since Twilight of the Apprentice.
I have to disagree when you say that George had no one to say no to him. A very common misconception is that George surrounded himself by yes-men, specifically during the prequels. I'll give a quote by the producer of the prequels, Rick McCallum: It's not something I would dispel categorically because on one level they're right, but to take it down to the level that we're all "yes men" is just ludicrous. Obviously, there were countless arguments and fights and discussions. Discussions, I would say, more than fights, but heated discussions about what the issue is. I'm not trying to protect myself about it, people can think whatever they want to, but George has an idea of what the film is to him. He told us - all of us, in fact - in that meeting when we were going through the visual effects, "Look, a lot of you are gonna hate this. I'm making this for my kids, and you're not gonna like Jar Jar Binks. But this is what I wanna do." I think for all of us, we believed he earned the right to feel that way. So you buy into that and still say, "Okay, I don't agree with this?" or "God, does it have to be like this?" But I don't think you can reduce it down to the fact that all of us were "yes people" because that just is not the truth. Here is the link to the article. I put spaces in some parts so that TH-cam doesn't nuke my comment. Read More: www.slashfilm.com/ 1499720/was- george-lucas-enabled- by-yes- men-star-wars- prequels/
Similar to my view regarding the lore in Halo under 343. Greg Bear and most of 343's leadership have done irreparable harm to the setting that requires a hard reboot which may happen if the Halo CE remake is actually real.
This has been happening since he joined LucasFilm in 2008, as the video stated, he trashed the Clone Wars Multi Media Project to write his own stories. Why is everyone now just realizing he retcons whatever he wants?
@@A21-EDITS21 Of course he did, he has a producer credit, no writing credits however. Watch the behind the scenes of TCW. George had little to no involvement in TCW writing. After 2005 he stopped caring about star wars because of the hate he received because of the prequels. Its why he sold Star Wars to Disney.
The Clone Wars was not “his” (Dave’s) show it was George’s show. George was executive producer and involved in literally every aspect of TCW from the start, all the way to its cancellation. It’s all confirmed by fellow writers, voice actors like James Arnold Taylor, Mathew Wood etc. who worked on the series and even Dave himself. Nothing happened on that show without George’s approval. Most likely the reason why Dave is so eager to break continuity written by other writers is because Starwars is first and foremost a cinematic universe with the movies as the cornerstone or pillar of the franchise. As long as the content doesn’t contradict what was fully and understandable established by the movies themselves, (not any novels, comics or any other form of media even though they have been classified as official) then it’s fair game. Especially considering that only George has the power to make anything official and the last thing George created before selling Star Wars was TCW. And as you said in the video George intentionally made TCW very different from the micro series that came before it. Even though George loved the micro series, he never likes to copy or retell anything, he always wanted to make his stories the way he wants to. And since George isn’t involved anymore, technically nothing made now can truly be considered official. And that’s fine, George was fully aware that some people would prefer the expanded universe over what George originally made and others prefer George’s starwars. Same can be said for the new stuff Disney is releasing
@@Crimsonlupusits sad how seemingly no-one has the common sense these days to fully rationalise the situation Starwars is in. There are so many different kinds of fans who all love and hate different things and no one is looking at anything objectively. The only Chanel ive seen with a level headed take is @Hero_of_Sinnoh
@@josiaharaki7310 hmm i remember enjoing the Revan novel as a TOR player, dont remember about the Exile though. I think as a canon Revan was a he, and Exile was a she - Meetra Surik or something like that, but have no recollection of references to her in TOR. But it was long ago so - yeah You might be right. That said - i think it might be a point of that it didnt bother me that much. Havent played any of the expansions though, didnt even start the Makeb storyline. Are any specific thing they retconned You feel was too much?
I came from Sheev’s channel, very solid video, this perspective is criminally understated in modern media discussion and I’m glad to see more content creators covering it. I can’t fathom why internal consistency is such a difficult concept for people to accept. It doesn’t make a story inherently “logical, rational, and without emotion” to be internally consistent. It just makes it more consistent… which by nature is mutually exclusive of how emotional the story is. Like you said, we really need to pursue a more healthy conversation exploring the subjective vs objective film discussion. All that said, take my sub, “we will watch your career with great interest”
I don't think internal consistency is something "difficult for people to accept," I just think some people don't care that much. And if the idea genuinely is supposed these are all retold stories where the details might be wrong, yeah, I wouldn't expect perfect consistency, but then maybe if you're telling me that, don't also try to tell me what is and isn't "canon."
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 I think in some cases that is true, though I have been at the displeasure of chatting with a few people who can't seem to grasp the concept, they do exist. But largely yes I would say a vast majority of viewers don't care about specifics and are more passive towards the idea in general. I was mostly referring to the classic position held by JustWrite or Patrick Willems stating that internal consistency is inherently logical (i.e. "intellectually satisfying") and therefore at conflict with the emotional side of storytelling, which they champion as the more significant of the two. Almost as if to say you can't have a story that handles both aspects well, let alone ignoring how reductive that statement is at its core to imply that a story that is well-constructed is inherently less emotional. Perspectives like these demonstrate a lack of understanding on how internal consistency is supposed to work, it enables payoffs to happen and provides a framework for more interesting and compelling characters. Either way I agree, its a double-edged sword the way Filoni has stated it and discussion of what is and isn't canon is really diluted by the existence of that mindset at the creative helm
He's not just ruined Star Wars Continuity, he's ruined continuity for everything. Star Wars was and is seen as THE interconnected multimedia franchise. Everything else follows it (that's not to say it's the first just that it's the most well known and 'blueprint'). So now that Star Wars is giving up on it's consistent canon, Star Trek decided to do the same, as did Doctor Who. As a huge fan of all three it pains me to see these once great multimedia universes shatter and fall. The only upside that I see to it is that hopefully one day I can make my own and prove they don't need retcons and are better when everything connects. (I'm aiming for a career in film and tv) Also when it comes to George Lucas he never purposefully overrode things. He stated to the writers of expanded media when it started that he did have a rough idea for the clone wars. He didn't tell them what it was but just said that they shouldn't make any content set during that time period. So it's really the fault of the EU writers that their stuff got retconned when the prequels came out. He was also a fan of it and actively read some of it. He even went so far as to include EU ships and characters in the background shots of the prequels. The other great thing about the EU was that when writers were finally able to write stories set in the Clone Wars some did try their best to smoothen the rough edges between previous EU and prequel EU. It wasn't perfect but it made it work a bit better.
that sam witwer interview was eye opening. why bother work on a shared universe if the entire design philosophy behind it is that it *shouldn't* even be shared in the first place? at that point why not just develop some original IP. it's wild to me that Andor does a better job of fitting in both thematically and continuity wise into the star wars canon than everything being worked on by the supposed luminaries leading the "story group"
What a fantastic video. I wish I could like this several times more because you nailed it. And I'm also an aspiring writer, working really hard right now to create a fantasy series of my own. There's one thing I would also like to add as to why continuity matters is that it all goes back to a concept called Verisimilitude. The appearance of being true or real. We know that these fictional worlds, like a Galaxy Far Far Away, Middle Earth etc. do not exist. But by these worlds having an internal logical to them and being consistent, it is much easier to suspend one's disbelief and buy into these worlds. Note, I want to make it clear that a world does not need to be grounded or realistic. One Piece is a really good example. The Grand Line is an insane place with islands in the sky, islands made of candy, snails that serve as communication devices etc. but it's believable because Oda puts in a lot of work in justifying why those pieces exist. For example, The Grand Line is said to be a place unlike the normal seas(the four blues) and hence a normal compass won't work. The point is that when you have a clear set of consistent rules to your world and you obey them, it makes your world more believable. Contrast this with Disney Star Wars where hyperspace ramming is a thing. That just broke space battles completely and we got a bad retcon atop a retcon that raises even more questions. The point is that good writers keep these details in mind. When you ignore these details or straight up retcon them, you erode the believability of your world. At that point, I just find it hard to care. It's why I don't care much about Disney Star Wars or Marvel all that much. Sure, I can subjectively enjoy parts of the franchise. But it's not a franchise that will reward me or others who love the attention to detail and care that went into keeping things consistent. It's just mush.
I'm at the point where I think Star Wars needs to do a Marvel/DC thing and just make a whole bunch of timelines and alternate versions of stuff. Canon is so messed up and they clearly don't care about continuity that they might as well say fuck it. Plus I'd REALLY love a Force Unleashed reboot or new series that are similar.
I understand your point about the criticism of Ki-adi Mundi. But I do still believe (and you might agree with this) that he does not belong in the show for other reasons. First of all, the original age makes a lot more sense to me. I know that his species lives a lot longer than humans but having him be 110 in RotS would still make him what I would consider an elder. Comparable to a 70 or 80 year old human. And most of them can’t run into battle like he did in that scene. Being in his 60s and 70s during Ep I and Ep III is much more sensible to me. He’s in his prime age. But that’s just my subjective opinion. But what I think is more grounded in fact is how knowing about the Sith and covering it up is a complete betrayal of his character. Figuratively and literally. He literally lied/betrayed all of his friends and that makes us want to hate Ki-adi throughout all other stories. The entire prequels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars Animated Series, etc. And by the end, it seems like that was where they wanted Yoda’s story to head… but I guess we’ll never know. All they had to do was name the guy in the show anything other than Ki-adi Mundi. I would’ve subscribed to the idea that he was Mundi’s master and that’s why he was so adamant that the Sith were extinct. Because his master had passed on that notion to him for his entire life. Though, personally, I would’ve never wanted this show to exist. The only story they should be telling that happened so close before Episode I is the Palpatine Plagueis. And this show made me realize how badly I want a *FAITHFUL* depiction of that story. I’m intrigued to read the novel.
I have fond feelings for Filoni's Clone Wars, but the 2003 Clone Wars multimedia project is unquestionably better as it was more consistent with the prequels, had more interesting worldbuilding, and personally thought the tone and focus were more mature (while still having content great for all ages). Filoni's current treatment of Mandalorian lore is laughable too, skipping over major events in their culture during the prequel and OT eras and barely consistent
Hate how much Filoni changed Mando Lore, they were so interesting before then but he comes along and is like ‘Nooe aside from death watch all Mando are pacifist, no other clans exist screw women’
It's funny you guys cry about the Mando's changing when they were warriors and were just passive during Satines Reign that didn't last long and returned to their normals way.
@@Gdsryrox What? Screw women? Bo-Karen is the villain who keeps failing upwards and everyone lese gets screwed because of her. She has the Mary Sue ability to bend the rules of the universe and even the rules of basic storytelling around herself, so her atrocities keep being swept under the rug and she gets rewarded with the rule over the planet which was destroyed because of her over and over again. She treats everyone like s*** and lies and manipulates and uses them for her personal gain but noone reacts to that negatively.
@@A21-EDITS21 The change is way more then just some temporary bit of pacifism.First of all before TCW Mandos were established to be nomadic to the point Mandalore only had a population of 4 million.There was pratically no goverment.Clans did their own thing and those clans answered to Mand'alor when he or she called them forth.And more importantly Mandalore was a planet with all sorts of biomes like snowy mountains and jungles with various speecies like Strils. The problem isnt them being passive.Problem is them being erased. TCW depicts a Mandalore is a wartorn wasteland and the billionth desert planet in the franchise,contradicting with every previous depiction.Then it gives Mandalore a capital that isnt the fleshed out and interesting city of Keldabe but a metropolis in a dome called Sundari.All mandos used to be raised according to the Six Actions from childhood but instead of all that we see hordes of armorless Mandalorians that just chill around.There are no signs of Mandalorian culture and what we are shown contradicts with not just the culture but previously established lore of this planet.
Great video, and a message that needs to spread far and wide. Funnily enough, the idea that Lucas completely ignored all of Legends when making the prequels is entirely false. Of course it’s his IP and he did what he wanted, but that doesn’t mean he disregarded Legends works wholesale. In fact, the name Coruscant and the character of Aayla Secura aren’t even George creations, just to name a few examples. Now of course these are names/characters, but still, he was aware of the other content that was made not by him and did use it here and there when he liked it. Additionally, I personally never took issue with the Acolyte over its use of bleeding crystals or Ki-Adi Mundi’s birthday. Rather, the show’s plot and writing are largely fundamentally flawed to me, and I think a lot of fans, myself included, dislike the idea of Mundi being around and aware of the events that transpired in the show while being completely ignorant in Episode I. Anyone who tries to hold Acolyte to Legends continuity is wrong to do so, but that doesn’t excuse poor writing generally. Lucasfilm “Story” group is also to blame for the slop that is modern continuity, and Dave’s flip flopping on the topic to me shows his perspective shifting from merely a part of the team to steering the ship…like he’s in charge now and all of a sudden he can just not care (wrongfully so). Dave also writes the same characters over…and over…and over….again. Characters who are always the most powerful whenever they’re on screen so much so that the plot armor is as visible as the characters themselves. Characters who are so infallible at all times that they never accept consequences or show remorse for their actions when they’re wrong. It’s true, he’s a fan of his Star Wars, and because he has a cult following that believes he can do no wrong, he can keep writing his precious characters the same way over and over again.
The whole thing with different tellings of the same story is actually pretty clever on the surface, but the problem is that Star Wars- particularly Disney’s handling of it- isn’t structured like that. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be- you know- a firm continuity. HOWEVER, on the plus side, adopting that view would mean that we 100% don’t have to view the events of the sequel trilogy as what actually went down, just someone’s retelling of it.
One thing, the idea of Kyber crystal bleeding is not a EU thing, it's a Disney continuity thing; in EU, the Sith lightsabers are red because they're synthetic crystals, not natural. So yes, Acolyte is breaking Disney canon.
A pretty good first video! I guess if I could offer one piece of advice it would be to slow down your narration by just a hair. Really good stuff though, I'll definitely be on the lookout for the next one.
There are in fact a lot of inconsistencies in the Old Republic era of the Star Wars EU. The thing is, those inconsistencies are usually not on the same level as what keeps happening in modern Star Wars, where events are clearly detailed and then replaced wholesale. For example there are many different interpretations of how the Jedi Civil War started split between the games and sourcebooks, some of which can vary quite a bit, but these were all things that weren't directly evident in ongoing stories. Meanwhile TOR was criticized heavily for disregarding large parts of Kotor 2 to tell it's own story, which is certainly not an example Disney should have followed when creating their own canon.
Whether you're in a metaphorical box or not shouldn't matter. The hallmark of a good artist is being able to create within parameters and limitations, or none at all. An artist should be able to create with whatever he has to work with.
"its great to see a different perspective of the story" yeah. but at what point does nothing matter? i cant get invested when its entirely possible that nothing i watched mattered. youre essentially gaslighting me at that point. i saw this shit happen and youre telling me it didnt or it happened differently. what is the point in watching what youve made for me to watch if the next thing you make for me negates it? i lose my investment if its entirely possible that i couldve just not watched it anyway.
I think Filoni can make a good story. Like just in a general sense. But the problem is he can’t seem to write a story without stroking his own ego. Like did Luke and Ahsoka really need to be in Book of Boba? It was a good episode of Star Wars but a terrible episode of Book of Boba
I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of communication since too many things are in production at a time which forces them to either ignor the issue or, if not possible, overwrite it to fit the narrative of a larger story in the future. For example, we have two imperial fire troopers, the flame trooper (BF2) and incinerator trooper (mando), but its mostly ignored since its not the biggest world breaking detail. But then comes the ahsoka/maul fight from the show and book which cannot be allowed to conflict because they need to bring the show to a logical end and have the more mainstream piece of media supplement ahsoka's character and future story lines. They honestly need to slow down their production if they plan on keeping the universe alive or at the very least start working on more things completely seperate from the skywalker saga since it will make it less likely for writers to step on eachother's toes. It does seem like they're starting to do these things since I'm sure a lot of future productions have been canceled/put on hold as well as andor and skeleton crew being at least somewhat self contained so we'll see how that works out for them.
Yup, you hit the nail right on the head. In fact, you did it so many times that you could flip the progress bar over and lay atop the nails completely unharmed. I can tell you’ll be an excellent writer. Can’t wait to see your world.
Finally people are realizing that the issue with the lore have been Fraudoni for a long time, I've never swallowed his constant retcons with clone troopers since the cartoon days and now people realized just how lazy and uncaring he is to lore when it comes to pushing his own fanfics.
In the past it was good, because let be honest, the clones betraying the jedi at their free will would be dark, like it was in the bf2 campaing, but this could have been better explored with the new generation of clones being less independent, but that's my opinion
As a big lore/canon dork sorry for this long rant 1: Canon is context and stakes. If your characters aspects or backstories can change on a writers whim then why should I care why get invested. Example being with space marines in warhammer, if they were to add women space marines than it changes a big aspect of lore and shows I shouldn’t get invested and care and thus shouldn’t buy anything. 2: having limitations for things creates challenges but usually challenges create great stories. Afterall Empire strikes back is seen as the best SW movie and it doesn’t just do whatever it wants it has to use the characters given to it in the same world.
This is the most balanced well thought video I’ve seen on this topic. I feel very represented with I how feel about the state of Star Wars. It’s okay to like it, or not like it, but it’s flaws should be viewed as objective. People pick at things for the wrong reasons and it’s frustrating. Thank you for not doing that lol
We have to make emphasis in the fact that we are TOLD to stop thinking when previously it was rewarded to think about the lore of a franchise with OG creators. What goes through a new "creator" and a new group of fans to tell people to stop thinking? That clearly belittles the reputation of a franchise in an intellectual level. And to think intellectuality should be completely dismissed is an act of stupidity and support for more stupidity going forward, taking away the gratification of a solid storyline as a collective achievement based on respect and appreciation between creators.
@@CuriousGuyOnline They're referring to the Kyber crystal bleeding I assume. Osha does it inadvertently in the Acolyte, but somehow between Operation Knightfall, the execution of the Separatists and his fight with Obi-Wan, it doesn't happen. I would particularly think Knightfall or the fight with Obi-Wan would be where it happens if it can just happen like it does in the Acolyte.
It's honestly sad to see. A lot of us grew up on the stuff headed by Dave and kinda grew attached to him, but as soon as he started getting more authority, he ended up like the rest of the people we tend to hate on.
![สาวเมืองเพชร - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kEt7F9PvO3I/mqdefault.jpg)
I can’t thank everyone enough for the positive response to this video. I had no idea my first one would perform so well! 😅😅
The responses have been very motivating!
More videos to come, for sure.
Bro has beaten the TK sidekick allegations.
it was also the fact that his age was identified as one thing right up until the point the acolyte ran into a plot continuity problem. It was then retroactively changed.
@@station7thedoorhe deleted my comment correcting him. Noach loves misinfo.
@@Darnk715 Wild.
I've seen someone say that Dave doesn't seem like a Star Wars fan, but rather a fan of Star Wars content he made.
I've said that
There he is!
That quote perfectly describes him
I'm pretty sure no one but him wanted that wolf-head X Wing helmet made.
Star Wars brand fan
This is cool and all, but did you know that a stormtrooper hit his head in 1977
you mean the shockmaster?
That’s not what Dave Faloni told me. Dave said the trooper was a class 4 magical phase trooper and he phased through the matter of the walls.
Whenever I see the year 1977, all I can think of is Sheev yelling that year
😮😮😮
When he said *BONK* I felt that.
Honestly, I don't know if it's just because I was blindly nostalgic or in love with the Clone Wars series but. I've come to realize, Dave Filoni didn't save Star Wars, he just made it needlessly more complicated and didn't give a rat's ass about continuity with the pre-established universe.
Maybe we praised him for CW because it was a very big show with lots of episodes, and not all of them were that good but a handful that were great eclipsed all filler/mediocre ones. And it ended strong too.
@@FlymanMSbut u have to admit, people for years were saying TCW was “peak” Star Wars, when in reality only about 30% of the show is worth watching
@@ETHER3AL2205yea that is definitely a understatement. In the early seasons it may only be 30-40 procent but after that it’s more like 80-90
Finally someone is say what needs to be said about Filoni instead of blindly hailing him as the “Savior of Star Wars”
ki adi mundi age WAS NOT THE ISSUE! It was the fact that he saw the events of the acolyte and HE HIMSELF SAID “but there has been no sith for over a millennia”
to be fair, by the End of the Acolyte no one knows that the Sith were involved because everyone that knew died
Bro, everyone that saw the Sith are DEAD. The Jedi think Sol did it and even without that, it can easily be written off as some dark Jedi doing it. There is no issue.
@@pandawillishelthostage2985 ki adi mundi found out tho, thats the issue.
@@orbaitv5991 this is ~100 years before even if they believed that was true, it doesn’t explain “millennia” if you don’t know what that means it means 1,000 years. Which means it directly contradicts episode 3
@@orbaitv5991the visceral reaction was because of any Jedi that could have been chosen to be a part of this new series in the past, it was THIS guy who said THAT thing, and before that moment was assumed had not been born. I get it was an overreaction in some respects, but I also understand why some fans felt needled by what was perceived as a wink/nod to larger scale corruption and incompetence in the CW era. It was a “everything you knew and loved might be a lie” moment, I guess
Here to point out obligitorialy that the EU hirearchy was nowhere near as messy as people keep acting like it was and alot of the misconceptions have been spread falsely and in bad taste
oh yeah, a lot less problematic in 40 years than Disney's 10
A lot of the more glaring issues involve stuff like early Bantam era books writing stuff that doesn't jive with the prequels or just like, dates being off. There's stuff more egregious than that, like Mandalorians claiming to have had a mission to kidnap Leia during the Clone Wars, but it's pretty easy to ignore or write off stuff like that, and there were people dedicated to reconciling the inconsistencies.
They genuinely don't care now because it's not supposed to be a single consistent continuity, it's supposed to be a mythology now.
@1000g2g3g4g800999 Even that stuff was handled tactfully by retcons in the EU. Boba fett's 3 different backstories were explained and delt with by the open seasons and blood ties comics, the issues with the clone wars before everyone knew what they were, were handled by the Republic comics and made to make sense. The big continuity issues didnt start until TCW and even then, though the retcons were rough and I hated them personally, they at least tried. The EU had its continuity snarls, but it always course corrected, wheras the post buy-out canon seems to only wish to gloss over issues and pretend that they don't exist. This unwillingness to course correct and retcon takes away from the suspension of disbelief that this is all one big interconnected universe and makes it more like a choose your own adventure novel than a precise overarching continuity. Seeing this happen over the years has made me desire less and less to give the post buy-out canon a chance and is why I remain such an ardent supporter of having the EU reinstated as an alternative, equally valid continuity for fans to follow.
@@Manda-LORE Agreed. As much as I'd like to see legends continue, I don't think it's especially likely anytime unless it's maybe officially releasing some book that was finished, but never released. Considering they went through the trouble of editing out legends reference in certain books to release canon versions, I could also maybe see something happening with the books that were going to be legends, but were then edited to not contain references to legends material before their canon release.
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 at this point, would we even want to trust them to continue Legends at the same level of quality it was before?
Many have pointed out that TCW is inconsistent with not only the EU but even the movies themselves. People like to talk about how Anakin and Grievous keep narrowly avoiding meeting but then of course Obi-Wan and Grievous keep fighting for some reason which then makes Grievous telling him he's been trained in the Jedi arts pointless because Obi-Wan would already know that after dueling countless times. Obi-Wan and Anakin also meet Dooku multiple times in the show which undermines "this time we'll do it together" in RoTS. Anakin doesn't even really act like his movie counterpart. I've gotten up to about halfway through season 3 of TCW and I think it's a mixed bag. I definitely prefer the micro-series and Republic comics which I've recently started reading. TCW isn't even all that hardcore by comparison.
Dave is literally telling us that Star Wars continuity is whatever anyone can see it as, there is no main continuity, that idea has been long gone since T-Canon arrived.
What’s the T-Canon?
@@JamesNerdMan85Television Canon
@@DarthVader0001 ah. Got it.
"My source is that I made it the fuck up!"
@@_MaZTeR_that’s a nice argument filonni how bout you back it up with a source
Also, difference between Lucas and Filoni is very simple:
Lucas is the creator of the worldbuilding, it's clearly his world. He came up with these ideas and of course he has a right as a creator to ignore how other writers interpret them. The other writers are basically "guests" that were allowed for creating. One of those "guests" shouldn't have more importance than the other and they should respect each other works as a valid part of the continuity if a single continuity was meant to be.
Great point. Lucas creates worlds, Filoni writes fanfics with his OCs.
However, since you're talking purely about respecting an author's/writer's work, shouldn't that be applied to the other writers besides Lucas where Lucas can't and shouldn't disrespect their work and throw them away? Because, what's the point of all these stories if they can just be dropped just like that? They helped expand his world to places beyond what he would've been capable of otherwise.
Lucas sold the shxt because of fans like you.
Filoni was following the orders of Lucas, wasn't he? I thought Lucas added his input to every episode of The Clone Wars
@@موسى_7 No, Lucas wasn't as involved in TCW as people like to think. He basically showed up every now and then and just looked at some things and left. He would also occasionally make suggestions. But no, he was not involved in the day to day.
Filoni and his consequences have been a disaster for consistency
Ohhh boy you would have hated George lucases sequels
@davidfrederiksen3185 Nuh uh
first started by giving anakin a padawan completely out of nowhere.
George Lucas had final say on that.
@@KJC04 yes but george also decided it was time to end her story and of course dave will never let her be in any danger.
@@PrettyboyAshtun You can say that about any main character in Star Wars.
And that is inconsistent with canon/continuity because.....?
@@KJC04and that excuses it?
I thought the Issue with Ki Adi was with his quote of "The Sith have been Extinct for over a thousand Millenia". His involvement in the show brought that into question.
It was also that, but the thing with that is, "viewers" already know that what Ki-Mundi believes is not the truth because A. Darth Plagues was confirmed to exist in episode III and B. Master Syfo Dyas proves there were already conspracies in the Jedi Order. In his case, stemming back at least a decade before the prequels.
He didn't see the Sith in Acolyte series
Also witnesses were killed by Qimir so the secret is covered
That line sort of demonstrates why he shouldn't have been put in the show, but I was under the impression when I saw him the idea was to put him in deliberately as a character who wouldn't actually learn the truth, but to present him as the type that who'd maybe be more willing to believe it, or to continue demonstrating his skepticism alternatively. Do I think the show utilized him well in either of those ways? Not really.
@@DarthSharp The Sifo-Dyas conspiracy was around the time of the Phantom Menace.
It doesn't really matter if it was right before TPM or not. The fact that they could go ten years without knowing something was going on is realistic to the oversight problem they would naturally would have, which lends itself to conspiracies in the order. AOTC is about discovering a conspiracy to some unknown (to the Jedi) end. So just because Ki-Mundi says what he believes to true, doesn't mean that is the truth. Just like we could chalk up Kylo Ren not being able to go deep enough into Rey's mind to know the whole truth about her origins/what exactly happened to her parents...
More over, the existence of Darth Plagues also points out that not all of the Jedi were aware. which means they were either all willfully ignoarant or there were cover ups. But we also know with the existence of the High Republic itself and/or the line Obi-wan tells Luke in ANH about the Jedi being in there prime at some point, tells us that something changed the order at some point. So The Acolyte was the beginning of that story, as THR established it was the Jedi in their prime.
It's easy to contrive reasons for most of this stuff, but some of the fans want to make this hard on themselves so they have excuses to treat other parts of the fandom or thee creatives/artists like garbage.
The one thing I would like to understand about Filoni is the obsession with Ahsoka.
I can’t tell if it’s a sincere belief that she is a deep, complex, and powerful character or he is attracted to her like Tarantino is with feet.
He´s a bad fanfic writer who always self-inserts himself as some bratty, obnoxious Mary Sue, and because of his narcissism he can´t kill off or sideline his pet Mary Sues who are basically him combined with his dream waifu in the world of SW.
It is just immaturity, vulnerable narcissism, hatred against more talented authors, hatred againts more popular characters, hatred against real life "Stacies" he can´t have and against "Chads" who have them. All of his work reads as his personal revenge fantasy against everyone and everything which triggers his inferiority complex.
Well I always thought as more of her being a character he and George worked on together and she is basically the best character still living after the sequels
@@Mouse_MetalI can see where you're coming from but this entire comment reads like projection.
@@doublecb5244 I don´t think you know what the word "projection" means.
@@Mouse_Metal I definitely do. Seeing how quickly your original comment devolved into calling him essentially an incel with an inferiority complex in such a specific and detailed manner, gives me the impression you are projecting.
After all this years i can say it
Filoni is overrated and his fans will protect all his content just because was made by him doesn't matter if ti was good or bad
I feel that Filoni was the beginning of the end for Star Wars, not Disney. They just enabled him and propped him up.
That first clip is very telling. Not just for story canon, but visual continuity as well.
Dave is a tourist at best. It's clear his understanding of Star Wars is surface-level, and that's being generous. He's like a crow finding something shiny on Wookieepedia articles. He also has a deeply-unhealthy obsession with his OCs, Rex and Ahsoka.
And sabine as well heck star wars forces of destiny was his Mary sue fanfic obsession ramped to the max.
We've reached a point where a history nerd with no personal interest in Star Wars, Tony Gilroy, is able to put out the best Star Wars media project since the OT -- all while retconning the canon of three trilogies and multiple TV-Y7 cartoons *LESS* than the guy who made said cartoons.
I’m a bit confused, in what way can Filoni be held responsiblr for the whole diminishing of the franchise as he is no member of the almighty story group as the firstly threw out the complete EU ( probably for not having ever read any book) and then let Filoni use some of the characters of the EU characters in his take on the SW-galaxy. I think he gives some hommage to the EU in stead of having a writer for a series which main reason for being hired is thinking Anakin blew up a deathstar. Sorry shit in produces shit out. And as a sceintist I should give references. My sources are wookiepedia and the shamefull interview of the former assistent to and her creative team on creating A
Since the Prequels, which are easily as good as the Original Trilogy.
If anything Ernesto "Che" Guevara... I mean Saw Gerrera (a character created in The Clone Wars), was at his best written in Andor, and I still think he was well written in The Clone Wars, Rebels, and Rogue One.
@@tomnorton4277 I propose a compromise: "since Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith".
@@cloak211 That encapsulates all 6 of George Lucas' movies. They're the only true canon as far as I'm concerned. Tony Gilroy's work is just good fanfiction.
I've hated him since I started reading the EU a few years ago, and learning more about the production history of the Clone Wars, and the various creative decisions Filoni has been involved in throughout the years. I'm glad people are finally starting to realize just how much he's contributed to the current Star Wars rot. It seems as if there has been a large fandom shift against him in the last few years.
Clone wars show was pretty good-- one of the best things from my childhood. Mind elaborating how its production led to the current state of star wars. I'd say the main problem is Kathleen Kennedy. Bitch is the reason for acolyte even existing.
TCW is the source of the rot. Every aspect that people hate about the disney era is sourced from him and TCW
It’s incredible how people like you guys are rallying around hatred of a man who actually cares deeply about Star Wars. You’re mad at him because you personify him as this evil man who got rid of your beloved EU, but George Lucas himself stated in 2005 that the EU was never canon to anything. Yes, he said there were many things he liked in it, but it had nothing to do with 1-6, it could be replaced at anytime. The Micro series was an experiment and did very well, but after Episode 3, Lucas wanted to flesh out TCW timeline with tons of stories and ideas. Anakin having a padawan was George’s idea, hiring Filoni was George’s idea, Filoni didn’t do anything without the blessing of Lucas first. Stop having this irrational hatred of Dave Filoni.
@@IvanKinkle You love the word hate, don't you
@@IvanKinkle
False. Lucas had no problem with the EU being canon. You mistextualized his words. Even then, LucasLicensing made it crystal clear that the EU was 100% canon, and Lucas never told them to say otherwise.
There were actually promises before TCW released that the show would maintain continuity with the EU, and then it didn't. It actually destroyed continuity so much that Filoni's staff kicked an author out of her own series and made her abandon Star Wars writing altogether.
Filoni actually admitted to deceiving Lucas before (final scene in the Ahsoka Trial arc). He's a fraud that had very little oversight from Lucas, and as we hear from the beginning of this video, little respect for the work of others on this massive multimedia cooperation.
That statment of feloni that Sam talked about in the start of the video is so focking unbelievably insane as a writer omg...
Honestly I think it's intentional. Filoni never cared about a consistent canon. But Disney didn't want Lord of the Rings in sci-fi it wanted Marvel where story get rebooted every decade and there's lower expectations.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Someone finally gets it. It's about mass producing lots of cheap content.
Warhammer 40K does the same thing.
Dave Felony
@@TheChristianPsychopath I haven't seen the interview before this video, but I started thinking it was deliberate after rewatching some of The Clone Wars. You can tell they're aware of stuff like what Quinlan Vos's character is supposed to be, but they clearly don't care how there is no room for this episode in his story because of what he's preoccupied with for the entirety of Republic during the war. And the change in how his character behaves, I could maybe see Quinlan being like that, but not during the Clone Wars per his previous depictions.
Then there's just Filoni (or someone else) trampling all over what's in current canon comics and books in TV shows.
Great video mate! That Sam Witwer quote in the beginning was a significant revelation to me. It all makes sense now! Filoni sees each entry into the continuity as if it's a story being recounted rather than a depiction of the actual events. What an illuminating insight into his motives as a creator.
I already knew that was more or less Filoni's perspective, I just hadn't heard that quote from Witwer before. It's really the way he expressed it that kind of shocked me.
The thing about Lucas' previous canon hierarchy is that it allowed for storytelling flexibility. What he personally created (the movies) take precedence over all other works. Other works (TV, comics, novels, etc.) could be placed before, between, and after these foundational pinpoints, allowing fans and creators to build their own subjective canon without destroying the in-universe consistency.
Pablo Hidalgo deserves a heap of the blame that Filoni gets, especially for spreading misinformation.
True he is the biggest EU hater
4:12 ok so you got this wrong. People are mad that ki adi mundi was in the show cause in the prequels he said "the sith have been extinct for a millennium" not that his birth was messed up but because this new "canon" contradicts already existing canon.
No, people were genuinely upset that he had a different age between continuities. While yes, it is a MASSIVE worldbuilding screwup to have the Sith return in Mundi's lifetime, the actual birth date changing is the issue most brought up, which is a bad faith criticism.
@@TheSEAempire I’d say most brought it up in relation to mundi’s comment in the phantom menace. All in all people wouldn’t mind his age changing that much if it wasn’t for that massive narrative plot hole and the fact that it feels like Disney puts in characters for fan service and no other real reason.
I take continuity and consistency in a very high regard when it comes to storytelling. For me, when the writers don't have much interest in the integrity of the continuity, it tells me they don't hold any value in my attention to their story and the my emotional investment in the plot and characters in the story, because if in the next feature of this continuity doesn't align at all with the previous, then I might as well not have seen/read the previous entry.
Convinced if you handed Filoni a Star Wars comic and said they are part of canon continuity he would wipe his ass with it
And then proceed to incorporate it poorly into one of his shows, after which people will praise his supposed creativity
This is lit.
No. Bleeding a cyber crystal does not follow current canon in the Acolyte. Vader had to push really hard to overpower the will of his crystal, which is consistent in canon. The Acolyte did not because it stepped on all of Legends and Canon. Mundi doesn’t make sense and of course no canon explanation was given for why his entire species could live much much longer. The Twins contradicts THE 6 MOVIES from George so you can’t get more uncanon then that. No one is Anakin, only he is the Chosen One and no one can be conceived as he can. It’s literally discussed in episode 1 & 3.
The crystal also has to be removed from the saber. I'm sure Vader struggled as the part of him that was Anakin was still lingering hence the vision before he truly committed to the darkside.
Dagan's rage was lingering for 200 years which is why it was easier for him. He was already set in his ways in jedi survivor.
The Acolyte's approach was just bad but at that point one is expecting too much.
It's still written in canon that mundis species don't live that long the females of mundis race live longer and there max lifespan is 100 years so mundi being in acolyte is total bs I remember arguing that with a failoni dick rider and boy do they lose there shite when you call it out.
(Super rare) Noach finally makes a video, also never let Filoni into the kitchen
He'll shit in every other chef's food
There is a little bit in the opening interview snippet with Sam Witwer that I would like to highlight. When he talks about Filoni's statements about stories being different, there is this strange verbal sleight of hand at play.
"It's good if the stories are different."
"It's great to make the audience seek out different stories and get different perspectives."
And yes, obviously we don't want all our stories to be the same. And yes, obviously it can be a good thing to provide a different perspective on similar events.
There is however a huge difference between "changing our perspective of a given event" and "changing the facts of the event itself". And this is what Filoni is doing. Who exactly saved young Caleb Dume is not a matter of perspective, the events are wildly different with no room for reconciliation.
And no this is not excusable by saying "it's all tall tales told after the fact". This was true for mythological stories, which were originally communicated verbally and had no specific creator or license or unique place in legal systems. And if they did, said legal systems are long since gone.
Star Wars on the other hand does have a specific creator, it has a large number of people officially involved in its development, it is licensed and it holds a particular legal status due to copyright laws. Beyond that, it is even marketed as one cohesive continuity.
And if it isn't, then that just undermines the integrity of the franchise and the investment of the audience. Why am I supposed to care about a compelling or emotional bit of character development if it can just be undone by the whim of the next person in the director's chair? Even if the catharsis worked in the moment, it would be inevitably tainted by the knowledge that it's been overwritten. And once you realize that this applies to literally every part of your favorite story, then all investment is out the window.
I mean, Dave Filoni has made it clear already that he views Star Wars as more of mythology than a concrete story already. And apparently that's more just the position in general at Lucasfilm now. And if that's how they want to play it, they shouldn't really be calling things canon and non-canon, but here we are. And yeah, the way they were marketing things after relegating the EU to legends was incredibly misleading for the approach they have now.
The only real way to make sense of Legends being a thing now given this, is to see it as preserving the prior continuity in a way, but that's obviously not what the purpose of doing that was. It was so they could freely ignore all of it when making new stories starting with Rebels and the Sequel trilogy.
@@1000g2g3g4g800999Officially all canon is still equal and should fit together… until Dave puts his hand in a project…
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 Dont forget them being able to get away with not paying royalties to EU writers while making money off their stories.
Man what a great start for a yourube channel! Really nuanced. Looking forward to more
Meanwhile the Horus Heresy has 64 books and 47 audio dramas over 18 years with 19 authors I can identify, and has maintained a coherent narrative.
It's wonderful, truly
*_Astarta has entered the chat_*
I’m sorry but Warhammer has the most changed canon ever. Warhammer has so many retcons compared to even Disney Star Wars. Some I dislike some I love but calling Warhammer stable or consistent shows a lack of knowledge about the hole lore
okay lets hold up here, you are ignoring a lot of red tape surrounding those books. A lot of Warhammer fans are starting to turn on the HH books and even state they ruined 40k as a whole.
The Tartakovsky Clone Wars still just about fits plot wise.
It does. It lines up perfectly with the beginning of TROTS.
No it doesn't too many contradictions with the 2008 clone wars
@@nathanc4583more like the 2008 clone wars has contradictions to taravovsky's clone wars
@@nathanc4583 a 2003-2005 work, contradicts a 2008 work. Your Argument is Highly Ilogical.
yep, coupled with the Comic Line it had, it filled nicely the space between EPII and EPIII
We Will Watch Your Career With Great Interest
The difference between retcons made by Filoni and those made before him is that pre-2008 contradictions were relatively minor and were a side effect of having a single multimedia franchise based around a single continuity, with subsequent guidebooks coming up with intelligent ways to reconcile these inconsistencies without bias towards one source, while Filoni's retcons are both blatant and irreconcilable. There was a time when I thought that his stories could be rationalized with the preexisting material, and it took me far too long to realize that this was impossible.
That being said, there are times when retcons can work, which are those aforementioned times when a work comes up with an in-universe reason for the confusion. One of my favorite examples comes from _Andor,_ which established that Cassian was from the planet Kenari, rather than Fest, as stated in sources like the _Rogue One Visual Dictionary._ The show explains this when Maarva offhandedly mentions that she and Clem had falsified Cassian's records to claim that he was born on Fest, which is something I didn't notice at first, but appreciate more and more as time goes on.
You say pre-2008 as if TCW was Filoni's project and Lucas didn't play a massive role in it, and its retcons.
@@dutbud9049 That's because he didn't. He just popped in every so often to offer suggestions. Lucas may not have been directing, but he was still involved in other films.
Ahsoka, the jesus of Sw , almost the main character😂
"If lucas was in Filoni's place..." then he wouldnt make that mistake. He loved star wars like his own child and tried really really hard to keep all of his own star wars works internally consistent with eachother. Of course, he couldnt micromanage every EU writer, but at least he made an attempt at keeping his own work consustent.
And those writers could follow the rules George set out and make excellent work failoni he trashed thrawn to hell in rebels he was just a raging ruthless physcopath with no moral compass at all then in ashoka the live action rebels 5th season he brings him in and makes him a complete and utter moron.
What's the line again... ah yes.
"We will watch your career with great interest."
One of the biggest reasons for seeing new stories in the canon is that they are all equally “real” and canon, and are all meant to fit into eachother well, not that they have annoying conflicting details, that makes me want to see other content even less!
While not perfect continuity wise the EU wasn't nearly as bad until TCW aired. Were there problems before that show aired? Yes. But TCW what's a whole nother level of retconning.
I stan Republic, but Sora Bulq isn't even 100% consistent in that comic (paired with the Jedi: Mace Windu one shot, which is part of the same project). No where near as egregious as a lot what happened thanks to TCW.
I feel like that one episode of Star Wars: Rebels where an inquisitor uses her spinning lightsaber like a helicopter tells you everything you need to know about Dave Filoni as a writer.
Ridley Scott is the Dave Filoni of the Alien franchise. Continues to ruin it by stupid retcons and whatnot that ruin it’s universe’s lore and also the mystique and scariness that the Xenomorphs once had.
Yeah, definitely someone whose head got too big after the praise.
Dave Filoni is the kind of guy that would completely destroy all of Star Wars if it meant he can shove his OCs in the ashes, just look at what he was gonna do to Revan in TCW.
Its no wonder hes happy to work with Kathleen Kennedy.
Clone Wars micro series is so much better then filoni's clone wars and its not even close.
CW 03 Actually connects ep 2 & 3, It stays consistent with anakin's character and developts him from his state in ep 2 to ep 3.
It also dosen't retcon the clones by giving them emotions and letting them resist order 66.
Dooku's character gets destroyed, For some reason dooku is so fkn evil in filoni's CW its so against his character in ep 2 & 3. Also having dooku fight anakin 2 more times and fighting anakin and obi-wan togheter again breaks the dialogue between them in ep 3 "This time we will take him togheter" implying that they have never fought him together. Also anakin's "My power has doubled since we last met count" and dooku's "Ive been looking forward to this" this proves the original vison of them not having fought dooku in years.
The seperatist leaders.
Ep 2 builds up the seperatist leaders which the 03 cw shows them being defeaded and captured while 08 cw drops them completly and Replaced them with others.
Grievous.
Grievous fights obi-wan multiple times even tho its implied and felt in ep 3 that this is the first time they fight, Obi-wan even looks surprised at the four arms. Also why would he tell obi-wan "I have been trained in your jedi arts by count dooku"
The republic & jedi are idiots.
They find out that their enemies made rhe clones and they just go "Oh well lets just drop it and move on duh"
Making them look dumb as they know that their enemies could use the clones.
I’m not a Star Wars fan like that, a casual enjoyer if anything, and that microseries to me is the best Star Wars content outside of the original movies and some of the games.
@@tiger_lord305 i agree.
>Dooku's character gets destroyed, For some reason dooku is so fkn evil in filoni's CW its so against his character in ep 2 & 3.
Looks like someone never read the ROTF novelization.
@@starpaladingoldbug2282 We using legends to explain canon? False equivelancy.
Filoni and Lucas' Clone Wars*
I have always been skeptical about Filoni. Especially when everyone thought of him as about some sort of star wars Jesus. Never ever had he do anything remotely impressive.
An excellent example of why stories need a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end. Without any of these, stories will always devolve into endless slop.
I hate to admit it. But this isn't wrong.
Dave Filoni was at his best when he was telling George Lucas "no thats a bad idea. tweak it this way."
Filoni is now Lucas without him. No one in the room saying "no thats a bad idea. try this instead."
It is most evident with Ahsoka. He hasn't had a damn clue what to do with Ahsoka since Twilight of the Apprentice.
I have to disagree when you say that George had no one to say no to him. A very common misconception is that George surrounded himself by yes-men, specifically during the prequels. I'll give a quote by the producer of the prequels, Rick McCallum:
It's not something I would dispel categorically because on one level they're right, but to take it down to the level that we're all "yes men" is just ludicrous. Obviously, there were countless arguments and fights and discussions. Discussions, I would say, more than fights, but heated discussions about what the issue is. I'm not trying to protect myself about it, people can think whatever they want to, but George has an idea of what the film is to him. He told us - all of us, in fact - in that meeting when we were going through the visual effects, "Look, a lot of you are gonna hate this. I'm making this for my kids, and you're not gonna like Jar Jar Binks. But this is what I wanna do."
I think for all of us, we believed he earned the right to feel that way. So you buy into that and still say, "Okay, I don't agree with this?" or "God, does it have to be like this?"
But I don't think you can reduce it down to the fact that all of us were "yes people" because that just is not the truth.
Here is the link to the article. I put spaces in some parts so that TH-cam doesn't nuke my comment.
Read More: www.slashfilm.com/ 1499720/was- george-lucas-enabled- by-yes- men-star-wars- prequels/
He actually did it
Similar to my view regarding the lore in Halo under 343. Greg Bear and most of 343's leadership have done irreparable harm to the setting that requires a hard reboot which may happen if the Halo CE remake is actually real.
Ok, now you have to make more. This is honestly amazing and not just for a first video. So you can't stop now. We demand more peak. Great job brother.
This has been happening since he joined LucasFilm in 2008, as the video stated, he trashed the Clone Wars Multi Media Project to write his own stories. Why is everyone now just realizing he retcons whatever he wants?
You forget that Lucas created the show
@@A21-EDITS21 Of course he did, he has a producer credit, no writing credits however. Watch the behind the scenes of TCW. George had little to no involvement in TCW writing. After 2005 he stopped caring about star wars because of the hate he received because of the prequels. Its why he sold Star Wars to Disney.
Thank you LEGO Mini figure Luke Skywalker from Episode 6.
The Clone Wars was not “his” (Dave’s) show it was George’s show. George was executive producer and involved in literally every aspect of TCW from the start, all the way to its cancellation. It’s all confirmed by fellow writers, voice actors like James Arnold Taylor, Mathew Wood etc. who worked on the series and even Dave himself. Nothing happened on that show without George’s approval.
Most likely the reason why Dave is so eager to break continuity written by other writers is because Starwars is first and foremost a cinematic universe with the movies as the cornerstone or pillar of the franchise. As long as the content doesn’t contradict what was fully and understandable established by the movies themselves, (not any novels, comics or any other form of media even though they have been classified as official) then it’s fair game.
Especially considering that only George has the power to make anything official and the last thing George created before selling Star Wars was TCW. And as you said in the video George intentionally made TCW very different from the micro series that came before it. Even though George loved the micro series, he never likes to copy or retell anything, he always wanted to make his stories the way he wants to. And since George isn’t involved anymore, technically nothing made now can truly be considered official. And that’s fine, George was fully aware that some people would prefer the expanded universe over what George originally made and others prefer George’s starwars. Same can be said for the new stuff Disney is releasing
@@invaderIRK1 this is the best take I’ve seen. You might be the most sober minded fan here 😂
@@Crimsonlupusits sad how seemingly no-one has the common sense these days to fully rationalise the situation Starwars is in. There are so many different kinds of fans who all love and hate different things and no one is looking at anything objectively. The only Chanel ive seen with a level headed take is @Hero_of_Sinnoh
I agree with you 💯.
That's why I blame George for ruining Star Wars. Tartakovsky's cartoon is better than the CGI one.
@@موسى_7
I dont think George ruined Starwars at all.. i love George's starwars. I love both the micro series and the clone wars
To be 100% fair, SWtOR took a dump on existing KotOR continuity as well...
how so?
Elaborate
Its treatment of Revan, Exile, the entire Revan Novel, etc.
Oh, 100%, hence why I made sure to highlight that the KOTOR saga I talked about spanned until 2012, when the final KOTOR comic came out.
@@josiaharaki7310 hmm i remember enjoing the Revan novel as a TOR player, dont remember about the Exile though. I think as a canon Revan was a he, and Exile was a she - Meetra Surik or something like that, but have no recollection of references to her in TOR.
But it was long ago so - yeah You might be right.
That said - i think it might be a point of that it didnt bother me that much. Havent played any of the expansions though, didnt even start the Makeb storyline.
Are any specific thing they retconned You feel was too much?
I came from Sheev’s channel, very solid video, this perspective is criminally understated in modern media discussion and I’m glad to see more content creators covering it. I can’t fathom why internal consistency is such a difficult concept for people to accept. It doesn’t make a story inherently “logical, rational, and without emotion” to be internally consistent. It just makes it more consistent… which by nature is mutually exclusive of how emotional the story is. Like you said, we really need to pursue a more healthy conversation exploring the subjective vs objective film discussion. All that said, take my sub, “we will watch your career with great interest”
I don't think internal consistency is something "difficult for people to accept," I just think some people don't care that much. And if the idea genuinely is supposed these are all retold stories where the details might be wrong, yeah, I wouldn't expect perfect consistency, but then maybe if you're telling me that, don't also try to tell me what is and isn't "canon."
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 I think in some cases that is true, though I have been at the displeasure of chatting with a few people who can't seem to grasp the concept, they do exist. But largely yes I would say a vast majority of viewers don't care about specifics and are more passive towards the idea in general. I was mostly referring to the classic position held by JustWrite or Patrick Willems stating that internal consistency is inherently logical (i.e. "intellectually satisfying") and therefore at conflict with the emotional side of storytelling, which they champion as the more significant of the two. Almost as if to say you can't have a story that handles both aspects well, let alone ignoring how reductive that statement is at its core to imply that a story that is well-constructed is inherently less emotional. Perspectives like these demonstrate a lack of understanding on how internal consistency is supposed to work, it enables payoffs to happen and provides a framework for more interesting and compelling characters. Either way I agree, its a double-edged sword the way Filoni has stated it and discussion of what is and isn't canon is really diluted by the existence of that mindset at the creative helm
He's not just ruined Star Wars Continuity, he's ruined continuity for everything. Star Wars was and is seen as THE interconnected multimedia franchise. Everything else follows it (that's not to say it's the first just that it's the most well known and 'blueprint'). So now that Star Wars is giving up on it's consistent canon, Star Trek decided to do the same, as did Doctor Who. As a huge fan of all three it pains me to see these once great multimedia universes shatter and fall. The only upside that I see to it is that hopefully one day I can make my own and prove they don't need retcons and are better when everything connects. (I'm aiming for a career in film and tv)
Also when it comes to George Lucas he never purposefully overrode things. He stated to the writers of expanded media when it started that he did have a rough idea for the clone wars. He didn't tell them what it was but just said that they shouldn't make any content set during that time period. So it's really the fault of the EU writers that their stuff got retconned when the prequels came out. He was also a fan of it and actively read some of it. He even went so far as to include EU ships and characters in the background shots of the prequels. The other great thing about the EU was that when writers were finally able to write stories set in the Clone Wars some did try their best to smoothen the rough edges between previous EU and prequel EU. It wasn't perfect but it made it work a bit better.
that sam witwer interview was eye opening. why bother work on a shared universe if the entire design philosophy behind it is that it *shouldn't* even be shared in the first place? at that point why not just develop some original IP. it's wild to me that Andor does a better job of fitting in both thematically and continuity wise into the star wars canon than everything being worked on by the supposed luminaries leading the "story group"
What a fantastic video. I wish I could like this several times more because you nailed it. And I'm also an aspiring writer, working really hard right now to create a fantasy series of my own. There's one thing I would also like to add as to why continuity matters is that it all goes back to a concept called Verisimilitude. The appearance of being true or real. We know that these fictional worlds, like a Galaxy Far Far Away, Middle Earth etc. do not exist. But by these worlds having an internal logical to them and being consistent, it is much easier to suspend one's disbelief and buy into these worlds. Note, I want to make it clear that a world does not need to be grounded or realistic. One Piece is a really good example. The Grand Line is an insane place with islands in the sky, islands made of candy, snails that serve as communication devices etc. but it's believable because Oda puts in a lot of work in justifying why those pieces exist. For example, The Grand Line is said to be a place unlike the normal seas(the four blues) and hence a normal compass won't work.
The point is that when you have a clear set of consistent rules to your world and you obey them, it makes your world more believable. Contrast this with Disney Star Wars where hyperspace ramming is a thing. That just broke space battles completely and we got a bad retcon atop a retcon that raises even more questions. The point is that good writers keep these details in mind. When you ignore these details or straight up retcon them, you erode the believability of your world. At that point, I just find it hard to care.
It's why I don't care much about Disney Star Wars or Marvel all that much. Sure, I can subjectively enjoy parts of the franchise. But it's not a franchise that will reward me or others who love the attention to detail and care that went into keeping things consistent. It's just mush.
Thank you for being the person for covering this! Can't wait for your channel to get bigger and bigger =D
I'm at the point where I think Star Wars needs to do a Marvel/DC thing and just make a whole bunch of timelines and alternate versions of stuff. Canon is so messed up and they clearly don't care about continuity that they might as well say fuck it. Plus I'd REALLY love a Force Unleashed reboot or new series that are similar.
I understand your point about the criticism of Ki-adi Mundi. But I do still believe (and you might agree with this) that he does not belong in the show for other reasons.
First of all, the original age makes a lot more sense to me. I know that his species lives a lot longer than humans but having him be 110 in RotS would still make him what I would consider an elder. Comparable to a 70 or 80 year old human. And most of them can’t run into battle like he did in that scene.
Being in his 60s and 70s during Ep I and Ep III is much more sensible to me. He’s in his prime age. But that’s just my subjective opinion.
But what I think is more grounded in fact is how knowing about the Sith and covering it up is a complete betrayal of his character. Figuratively and literally. He literally lied/betrayed all of his friends and that makes us want to hate Ki-adi throughout all other stories. The entire prequels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars Animated Series, etc. And by the end, it seems like that was where they wanted Yoda’s story to head… but I guess we’ll never know.
All they had to do was name the guy in the show anything other than Ki-adi Mundi. I would’ve subscribed to the idea that he was Mundi’s master and that’s why he was so adamant that the Sith were extinct. Because his master had passed on that notion to him for his entire life.
Though, personally, I would’ve never wanted this show to exist. The only story they should be telling that happened so close before Episode I is the Palpatine Plagueis. And this show made me realize how badly I want a *FAITHFUL* depiction of that story. I’m intrigued to read the novel.
I have fond feelings for Filoni's Clone Wars, but the 2003 Clone Wars multimedia project is unquestionably better as it was more consistent with the prequels, had more interesting worldbuilding, and personally thought the tone and focus were more mature (while still having content great for all ages). Filoni's current treatment of Mandalorian lore is laughable too, skipping over major events in their culture during the prequel and OT eras and barely consistent
No lo era
Hate how much Filoni changed Mando Lore, they were so interesting before then but he comes along and is like ‘Nooe aside from death watch all Mando are pacifist, no other clans exist screw women’
It's funny you guys cry about the Mando's changing when they were warriors and were just passive during Satines Reign that didn't last long and returned to their normals way.
@@Gdsryrox What? Screw women? Bo-Karen is the villain who keeps failing upwards and everyone lese gets screwed because of her. She has the Mary Sue ability to bend the rules of the universe and even the rules of basic storytelling around herself, so her atrocities keep being swept under the rug and she gets rewarded with the rule over the planet which was destroyed because of her over and over again. She treats everyone like s*** and lies and manipulates and uses them for her personal gain but noone reacts to that negatively.
@@A21-EDITS21 The change is way more then just some temporary bit of pacifism.First of all before TCW Mandos were established to be nomadic to the point Mandalore only had a population of 4 million.There was pratically no goverment.Clans did their own thing and those clans answered to Mand'alor when he or she called them forth.And more importantly Mandalore was a planet with all sorts of biomes like snowy mountains and jungles with various speecies like Strils.
The problem isnt them being passive.Problem is them being erased.
TCW depicts a Mandalore is a wartorn wasteland and the billionth desert planet in the franchise,contradicting with every previous depiction.Then it gives Mandalore a capital that isnt the fleshed out and interesting city of Keldabe but a metropolis in a dome called Sundari.All mandos used to be raised according to the Six Actions from childhood but instead of all that we see hordes of armorless Mandalorians that just chill around.There are no signs of Mandalorian culture and what we are shown contradicts with not just the culture but previously established lore of this planet.
Fantastic video! We absolutely need more people saying this. Also, as a fellow writer, I wish you the best of luck in your writing endeavors!
Great video, and a message that needs to spread far and wide. Funnily enough, the idea that Lucas completely ignored all of Legends when making the prequels is entirely false. Of course it’s his IP and he did what he wanted, but that doesn’t mean he disregarded Legends works wholesale. In fact, the name Coruscant and the character of Aayla Secura aren’t even George creations, just to name a few examples. Now of course these are names/characters, but still, he was aware of the other content that was made not by him and did use it here and there when he liked it.
Additionally, I personally never took issue with the Acolyte over its use of bleeding crystals or Ki-Adi Mundi’s birthday. Rather, the show’s plot and writing are largely fundamentally flawed to me, and I think a lot of fans, myself included, dislike the idea of Mundi being around and aware of the events that transpired in the show while being completely ignorant in Episode I. Anyone who tries to hold Acolyte to Legends continuity is wrong to do so, but that doesn’t excuse poor writing generally.
Lucasfilm “Story” group is also to blame for the slop that is modern continuity, and Dave’s flip flopping on the topic to me shows his perspective shifting from merely a part of the team to steering the ship…like he’s in charge now and all of a sudden he can just not care (wrongfully so). Dave also writes the same characters over…and over…and over….again. Characters who are always the most powerful whenever they’re on screen so much so that the plot armor is as visible as the characters themselves. Characters who are so infallible at all times that they never accept consequences or show remorse for their actions when they’re wrong. It’s true, he’s a fan of his Star Wars, and because he has a cult following that believes he can do no wrong, he can keep writing his precious characters the same way over and over again.
Can’t wait for the next Star Wars canon retcon
FINALLY someone called out Filoni. Dave has no respect for canon and continuity
Give me one example of Filoni disrespecting current canon and continuity.
@@AlexandreSardeiro contradicting the Ahsoka novel and kanan comics
@@НеАнтон-ы2эdawg ain’t no one reading those it’s fine
@@longerhandleisntavailable they are canon, whether you read them or not.
@@longerhandleisntavailableah yes, undoing the work of someone else and taking credit, all because it’s less popular. Let’s maybe not normalize that?
Bro, keep doing more videos like this! Great work!
The whole thing with different tellings of the same story is actually pretty clever on the surface, but the problem is that Star Wars- particularly Disney’s handling of it- isn’t structured like that. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be- you know- a firm continuity.
HOWEVER, on the plus side, adopting that view would mean that we 100% don’t have to view the events of the sequel trilogy as what actually went down, just someone’s retelling of it.
Welcome to content creation friend
0:43 that's actually the opposite because reading fiction within a fictional universe is the peak example of wasting the audience's time.
Well, you see, in 1977, a stormtrooper bumped his head, and uhhhhh..... uhhhhh... uhhhh...
One thing, the idea of Kyber crystal bleeding is not a EU thing, it's a Disney continuity thing; in EU, the Sith lightsabers are red because they're synthetic crystals, not natural. So yes, Acolyte is breaking Disney canon.
This is a great first video and I'm excited to see more
"We will watch your career with great interest."
A pretty good first video! I guess if I could offer one piece of advice it would be to slow down your narration by just a hair. Really good stuff though, I'll definitely be on the lookout for the next one.
For me, Tarkovsky's Clone Wars is superior to Feloni's because that one makes more sense canon-wise.
But the Clone Wars is made by Lucas himself
this is actually the most noach video of all time
There are in fact a lot of inconsistencies in the Old Republic era of the Star Wars EU. The thing is, those inconsistencies are usually not on the same level as what keeps happening in modern Star Wars, where events are clearly detailed and then replaced wholesale. For example there are many different interpretations of how the Jedi Civil War started split between the games and sourcebooks, some of which can vary quite a bit, but these were all things that weren't directly evident in ongoing stories. Meanwhile TOR was criticized heavily for disregarding large parts of Kotor 2 to tell it's own story, which is certainly not an example Disney should have followed when creating their own canon.
Whether you're in a metaphorical box or not shouldn't matter. The hallmark of a good artist is being able to create within parameters and limitations, or none at all. An artist should be able to create with whatever he has to work with.
Not when it hurts other stories attached to it. Because all that does is hurt his stories too
@@NoCluYT that's what I'm saying: the other stories is the box he should be able to create in, if he can't then he's not a real artist
"its great to see a different perspective of the story"
yeah. but at what point does nothing matter? i cant get invested when its entirely possible that nothing i watched mattered. youre essentially gaslighting me at that point. i saw this shit happen and youre telling me it didnt or it happened differently. what is the point in watching what youve made for me to watch if the next thing you make for me negates it? i lose my investment if its entirely possible that i couldve just not watched it anyway.
I think Filoni can make a good story. Like just in a general sense. But the problem is he can’t seem to write a story without stroking his own ego. Like did Luke and Ahsoka really need to be in Book of Boba? It was a good episode of Star Wars but a terrible episode of Book of Boba
First video? Holy shit man hope you go really far in the future
Great video dude. I feel there needs to be more criticism of Filoni. Your video discusses this well. Subscribed.
I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of communication since too many things are in production at a time which forces them to either ignor the issue or, if not possible, overwrite it to fit the narrative of a larger story in the future.
For example, we have two imperial fire troopers, the flame trooper (BF2) and incinerator trooper (mando), but its mostly ignored since its not the biggest world breaking detail. But then comes the ahsoka/maul fight from the show and book which cannot be allowed to conflict because they need to bring the show to a logical end and have the more mainstream piece of media supplement ahsoka's character and future story lines.
They honestly need to slow down their production if they plan on keeping the universe alive or at the very least start working on more things completely seperate from the skywalker saga since it will make it less likely for writers to step on eachother's toes. It does seem like they're starting to do these things since I'm sure a lot of future productions have been canceled/put on hold as well as andor and skeleton crew being at least somewhat self contained so we'll see how that works out for them.
the rise of noachlive needs to be studied
Yup, you hit the nail right on the head.
In fact, you did it so many times that you could flip the progress bar over and lay atop the nails completely unharmed. I can tell you’ll be an excellent writer. Can’t wait to see your world.
Finally people are realizing that the issue with the lore have been Fraudoni for a long time, I've never swallowed his constant retcons with clone troopers since the cartoon days and now people realized just how lazy and uncaring he is to lore when it comes to pushing his own fanfics.
In the past it was good, because let be honest, the clones betraying the jedi at their free will would be dark, like it was in the bf2 campaing, but this could have been better explored with the new generation of clones being less independent, but that's my opinion
As a big lore/canon dork sorry for this long rant
1: Canon is context and stakes. If your characters aspects or backstories can change on a writers whim then why should I care why get invested. Example being with space marines in warhammer, if they were to add women space marines than it changes a big aspect of lore and shows I shouldn’t get invested and care and thus shouldn’t buy anything.
2: having limitations for things creates challenges but usually challenges create great stories. Afterall Empire strikes back is seen as the best SW movie and it doesn’t just do whatever it wants it has to use the characters given to it in the same world.
This is the most balanced well thought video I’ve seen on this topic. I feel very represented with I how feel about the state of Star Wars. It’s okay to like it, or not like it, but it’s flaws should be viewed as objective. People pick at things for the wrong reasons and it’s frustrating. Thank you for not doing that lol
You’ll never catch me calling a new show bad because of “woke” lmaooo
"Its ok if the stories are different, these are all yall tales" I'm sorry I know you work for the official company but you're wrong.
Nice video, but did you guys know the original working title of the original 1977 Star Ears was called Blue Harvest
Great video man! Very well done, I'll be watching your career with great interest.
We have to make emphasis in the fact that we are TOLD to stop thinking when previously it was rewarded to think about the lore of a franchise with OG creators.
What goes through a new "creator" and a new group of fans to tell people to stop thinking? That clearly belittles the reputation of a franchise in an intellectual level. And to think intellectuality should be completely dismissed is an act of stupidity and support for more stupidity going forward, taking away the gratification of a solid storyline as a collective achievement based on respect and appreciation between creators.
Great video but actually criticism about lightsaber change is valid because Anakin's lightsaber doesn't change in ep.3
Or he just remade it exactly like he did previously after the Battle of Geonosis. It’s not that big a stretch
@@CuriousGuyOnline They're referring to the Kyber crystal bleeding I assume. Osha does it inadvertently in the Acolyte, but somehow between Operation Knightfall, the execution of the Separatists and his fight with Obi-Wan, it doesn't happen. I would particularly think Knightfall or the fight with Obi-Wan would be where it happens if it can just happen like it does in the Acolyte.
Yeah, in the Vader comics it was shown as much more intense and an actual process and not just changing cause someone is mad.
Thanks Sheev for sending me here :) Liked your video, good luck on your channel journey!
Good well rounded vid!!
Me, a Republic Commando fan, watching this with vested interest
Solid video! Well researched and made!
Remember when people praised him like the one that was fighting against Disney? All because he made some children tv trash?
I felt for that trap, I admit it. Doomcock and Captain Fordo/Manda-Lore opened my mind.
He was Dis. Star Wars before Dis. Star Wars was an official thing. All that grrrpowerrrr and whamen can do nothing wrong ag3nd4 was already there.
It's honestly sad to see. A lot of us grew up on the stuff headed by Dave and kinda grew attached to him, but as soon as he started getting more authority, he ended up like the rest of the people we tend to hate on.
i would love to see a sequel to this video based on mark laidlaw's (writer for half life) opinion on continuity