@@samholdsworth420 He meant that it was to secure it FROM the soldiers looting things. Yeah they kept their weapon and pretty much every other one they could get their hands on.
The Cunard Building, the old White Star HQ on James Street and 1 Tithebarn are all within a 1/4 mile radius, could be worth a trip across the Pennines for research. Probably won't find much at 1 Tithebarn now, it's a Costa Coffee. The Argentinian grill across from it well worth a visit though!
Private collections are better for preservation. Most large museums only display a small amount of their collection and often much of the stuff in the back hasn't even been cataloged so you can't know if they have something
@@georgebailey98 It's a vanilla DMC-12 rather than a 'time machine' version. I've seen the screen-used 'A' car from the movie in the US as well though.
Your discussion on the purpose of a shipboard firearm was an essential part of this presentation and you pulled it off with taste and no unnecessary drama--despite the grim reality of it all. Well done as usual, Jonathan!
To talk more on a possible connection to titanic, the officers of the ship known to have guns were of course the four seniors issued the company revolvers, Lowe with his personal firearm, the Chief purser McElroy who is reported to have fired shots at the scene around collapsible A and I’ve seen it heavily speculated that the two masters at arms likely carried company weapons. The only two possible ways this revolver could’ve been aboard the titanic is, as mentioned, either it was taken off before departure, or if perhaps it was the revolver issued to master at arms Bailey, the only surviving warrant officer who was sent in charge of lifeboat 16. Very tenuous but technically possible.
Jonathan, these kinds of stories of the historical context of the weapon, even at the risk of some educated guessing, are personally so much more engaging than a deep-dive into nitty-gritty of the engineering, as interesting as that can be. Your story was truly touching. Imagining this pistol in your hand, while ushering terrified people into the few lifeboats left. Officers, crew, and passengers alike, panicked, scared, and probably doomed.
Thank you Matt, it really is very evocative isn't it. Sadly we have relatively few objects with this sort of history but we always try to bring something of the design purpose and usage side of things if we can.
The .455 Webley is not that powerful. The most powerful standard load is significantly less powerful than .45 ACP. ball load BTW, years ago I was in a gun shop in New Jersey where I got to handle a Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. I remember looking at the thing and thinking, 'This could only come from the laudanum soaked brain of a Victorian era Englishman." At the time it was pretty cheap, unfortunately I didn't buy it.
@@MrSloika .45ACP is essentially the proofing load for .455. When the MkVIs got sold off as surplus, American importers shaved off the back of the cylinder so you could use .45ACP in moon clips. I mean, the thing was massively overbuilt, and each chamber has been tested to 6 tons, but do you REALLY want to subject it to 12k psi every shot? I pick up some of the brass that comes out of my newish commercial-market 1911A1 and handload .45ACP to near as I can get to the original .455 pressure for mine.
@MrSloika Yes.....BUT The .455 Webley outperformed the .45 Colt in the Thompson Lagarde tests that resulted in 45ACP being adopted. On Paper ballistics don't mean everything
Considering the (potential) lots of salty air it's been exposed too, and its general age, the finish actually is still in quite a good condition. What a pretty firearm!
I wonder if there's a clever way to deduce whether the loss of finish has something to do with the gun being used on high seas, so to speak, or was it the gun's later owner who handled it in such a way.
The nickel plating was likely chosen for the intended maritime usage. As long as the plating remains intact, there shouldn't be any degradation to rust. These types of security weapons generally don't see much hard use.
@@colbunkmust Not to mention the anecdote read by Jonathan mentions them being 'in grease'. Even if that's just a greasepaper wrapping and not grease on the gun itself, you've got to imagine that a gun that has been greased or wrapped like that, while being stored inside a box inside a drawer inside a closed-off cabin, is going to be exposed to no salt from the air whatsoever. Not until it actually gets taken out and used, anyway.
I went to the titanic museum in Tennessee. It was pretty cool. They had a room where it was as cold as the night it sank and had a tank of water you could stick your body in. Those people had to have frozen to death within a couple minutes.
@@sharonrigs7999 Indeed. The original W. Richards does seem to have closed as a result. The current incarnation started up just four years later and is still going.
Love the history. It brings the human story to life. My MkVI belonged to a young Lt. who died on July 1, 1916. Following his death it went to serve in the Royal Horse Artillery. How it ever got to the US I’ll never know.
I still remember the old episodes that looked and sounded like they were filmed with an integrated laptop webcam and microphone and now we have crisp high definition video, multiple angles and a decent microphone on top
Really interesting video Johnathan! Many thanks for the upload. You gave my club a talk on Mauser rifles, a few years ago at the Leeds Armouries. Your depth of knowledge on the subject was incredible. Best wishes my friend.
The British Plod were using Webleys well into the seventies. My mum was a firearms officer, no she never had to pull it. They were using if my memory is working after a couple of large gins, those bloody awful .38 Mk.5s Ian did an explainer on this week. My old man and mum hated them.
Very interesting Jonathan, thank you. It would be wonderful to see you do and video on the Webley Mk.VI which has a remarkable history. Have scoured through past videos here but can’t see it here.
Great photo of the RMS Olympic & RMS Titanic together, you can see the original 1st class dinning room of the Olympic, in White Swan Hotel, in Alnwick, Northumberland, it has made a very impressive room.
@@keithskelhorne3993 A Night To Remember was based on the book, but also had Titanic sink without breaking up. Yes, the story added to Titanic [1997] was m e h, but then again, a layman probably wouldn't like to watch a movie about a boat, without anything to interest them besides the ship, so you could go either way, and hope for the best if you chose to not add anything to the movie.
@@jonathanferguson1211 one example is how he talks to us like we're idiots, like ofcourse its not from the damn titanic... jeez but for me it was not bad at all, i liked the video in its entirety, just some nit picking, thats all
A very interesting piece of history. I also found it interesting that the LSW's in the background had their bi-pods bound - a testament to the flimsy locking device maybe?
The Titanic accident happened in 1912. In those days gunlaw was in european countries much more liberal than now. A serious lawfull man could buy a pistol , but more paperwork, than buying a rifle or shotgun. For carring in some countries a licence was needed also in those days ( in my country Germany called Waffenschein). So i think/. assume, that in addition to the revolvers, belonging to the ships equipment, also some of the ships officers also had their private pistols on board. In case of civilians , open carry of weapons was in 1910s , even USA , Seen as unusual/ strange, but in this days there was annother ,honor' code than now. There had been laws about weapons, but in case of Noblemen or Gentlemen, authorities then often closed both eyes. The german word Kavaliersdelikt is a relict of this era.
I always love these what is this weapon videos. It is either an oddball I will learn about or the ones I find more fascinating are cases like this. It is obviously a webley revolver, so it is a question of what this particular one has on it to bring it here. Also always love to see a shout out to c&rsenal's work on the history of firearms.
Great history to that gun. Johnathan it appears the trigger spring is broken, I have a MKIV on 7(1) and its hammer spring is broken… any idea where we could find replacement springs ?!?
Yes indeed - I got so carried away with the history on this one that I failed to mention it. Had I cocked it on camera I'd have remembered but I didn't see a need.
Very odd question, but I was interested by you saying "all of the Titanic's weapons were at the bottom of the ocean" implying that there many of them assumingly of different type. What weapons were carried on-board passenger vessels of that time, who had them, and what was their purpose- was it all security related?
When the officer was given the ammunition for the pistol and told “you might need it” I got a bit of a chill. I guess the severity of these men’s situation finally sunk in. (No pun intended)
Seems this particular example revolver has its rebound trigger spring broken since it does not returns to the double action position after depressing the trigger and lowering the hammer . nice gun , its quite a paradox that White Star had the prevention to keep guns to control the passangers and posible riots but did not had the same pevision in regards of security and life boats availability to save lives .. priorities i guess.
WSL had more lifeboats than needed at the time. The requirement was 16, WSL had 20. The idea was, ships would sink close to shore/land/other ships, for the sake of demonstrating it, lets say cargo-passenger ship S.S Alexander M. Drew struck a rock off the shore of Grimsby and is sinking, the trawlers and nearby ships would come to get the passengers, and the rest would use the lifeboats. Why 16 specifically, i don't know, but many things back then were different back then.
The Webley MK 4 is powerful and looks cool. Not as cool as the 6 but the 6 was 'it'! Webley made even a full auto revolver but I think it never sold much if any.
Since Jonathan didn't point one out, I assume the White Star Line didn't include serial numbers or some other way of tying a revolver to a particular ship?
It's fascinating that you could find yourself on an ocean liner facing the business end of a pistol. Not much evidence of that in mass transit nowadays. (Air marshalls on US airlines excepted.)
In the UK it is not unusual to see armed police at main railway stations (Birmingham New Street in my case) and virtually guaranteed at UK international airports.
@@nickjames2370 : I believe you. My comment was only about german situation. In Germany police work at International airports and in railway system is mostly done by Federal Police. When necessary/ in addition by State Police of the german states. Officers' of Federal or State Police are armed with pistols ( in addition to police baton and Pepper Spray. Largest german railway company ( DB/ Deutsche Bahn) has also Security Guards, but usually without firearms.
Lightoller interpreted the order as woman and children only, while the other officer (can’t remember his name) went by women and children first. The capacity of the boats wasn’t known for sure, so many were lowered half full.
I am, but I was never that much interested in revolvers-with the exception of the Webley top-breakers. I do have the MK IV, only in .38 S&W (same gun, just down-sized) and it’s a really clever design. Were it not for the inherent drawback of the weak frame (you can’t really use the construction for more powerful revolver cartridges), I’d say it’d beat the side-swing construction: auto-ejection, easier to load (even single-handed) and far easier to clean… Love it.
I know Lightoller dropped his Webley when he wound up in the water, but I wonder if the other surviving officers like Lowe or Boxhall, whose boats weren’t capsized, might have kept theirs. That would be pretty damn cool for one of them to turn up.
My grandfather worked on large civil construction projects, including a couple of multi-year projects in the Canadian Maritimes, in the 1920's. He won a Webley revolver in a poker game, that was purportedly from the Titanic. The pistol passed to my uncle, upon my grandfather's death. I learned about it's existence, several years after my uncle's death, after reading his journals. Unfortunately, my no-good, grifter cousin sold all my uncle's guns without waiting for the estate to be properly settled. No chance to ever verify it's origin (I'm doubtful it actually came from the Titanic, but you never know...)
Even if it didn't come from Titanic, it could have been from another WSL ship, like the Titanic's older[and initially more famous] sister ship Olympic, or other WSL ships at the time.
Imagine trying to arm a military force with the mishmash in the museum stores, though? What a logistics nightmare for ammunition. Particularly with some of the ones in there that would need _special, weird_ experimental or proprietary rounds.
@@3Dant Jonathan supplies the weapons, Ian and Hickock45 give strategies, Brandon Herrera also supplies weapons but the more fucked up ones, and Drobashevich supplies the ammo.
Is the trigger return spring broken, or if my memory serves the mainspring is an enormous V spring that doubles both purposes and the trigger seemed to be in the cocked single action position throughout the presentation?
Congratulations to Chris Ball for suggesting this answer first! 2:26 On the contrary, some other commenters and yours truly have chosen a range of models, being unable to tell from the silhouette what it is exactly. It's good to know that it was indeed the right approach to answer! This, however, leaves unanswered one very important question: why does it look like single-action only? 2:52 The reason for it being that the .455 Mk II round isn't the fastest in the slightest and has a relatively modest charge, as far as I get it. 3:08 It has to be noted here that the early Mk I had a humped backstrap, so the Webleys kinda went full circle on this issue. 6:59 Then why is there a wear pattern? And why would one need a sling swivel on the grip, if the revolver wasn't holstered in a military fashion?
Without a holster, a lanyard is even more essential. Especially if you're going to be trying to maintain control of the pistol in a lifeboat, rather than dropping it accidentally over the side.
@@geodkyt A lanyard needs something to attach to not only on the revolver, but on your person as well. What would that be in this case, absent the typical military uniform and webbing designed for this purpose?
@@F1ghteR41 A lanyard can be easily tied round the wrist, tied through a button hole or onto the belt depending on its length. Various types of sword and edged weapons had lanyards/wrist straps going back millennia before military style webbing emerged, the concept of tying two things together so they can't get seperated is a fairly basic concept to come up with. Obviously it wouldn't be practical for officers to be running around with military style webbing on a regular basis however in the case of a disturbance where a pistol is required the officer may have to operate the gun under adverse conditions (wet, windy, wildly rocking ship etc.) and may be required to perform physical taks like jumping into a lifeboat, therefore a simple lanyard which can be quickly tied around any convenient body part or item of clothing is a quick and effective way to prevent him from losing the firearm by mistake.
@@Temujin1206 A wrist lanyard is a solid idea, indeed much akin to a sword knot, it just didn't cross my mind, so thank you. On the other two I wouldn't be so sure. First, buttonholes might be covered over by the lifesaver vest, or pulling a lanyard through them might not be the easiest, especially given how hastily these guns were issued, if the account given in the video is anything to go by. As for the belts, they aren't all that common in the traditional navy uniforms, and officers especially preferred the more civilian outlook. If a belt were to be issued, however, a holster is an obvious next logical step, so if this was indeed the case, the issue would still be puzzling. As a funny aside, if you were to see for yourself that even knowing about sword knots people might still have trouble considering other ways in which a weapon can be attached to one's person (say, a lance-sling), look no further than a partner of Royal Armouries, Matt Easton, who produced a number of videos on his channel *scholagladiatoria* essentially debating the notion that 'the concept of tying two things together so they can't get seperated' can go back many hundreds of years. Presuming wildly by your account handle, I would guess that you're very aware of numerous pieces of evidence to the contrary, so that, I warn you, might be an infuriating sight.
The trigger return spring is broken. I should have mentioned it but I was pressed for time and focusing on the history side. Correct. Correct. I can only speculate but people like to handle firearms. Something I didn't think of at the time but is actually rather obvious is that this may well have been sold from service in the 1930s or so, and then owned, handled and likely fired by someone who didn't care to 'baby' it as a collector. The "sling swivel" is a lanyard loop and is not unusual on a Webley. WSL would have specified it and the new owners are not likely to see a need to remove it.
It don´t realy matter. if what ships it was on is lost to history. It´s the right type of wepon. if you want to illustratet what revolver they had on Titanic.
In my mind, this may be more associated with the Olympic, rather than either the Titanic or the Brittanic. As that one actually survived to be decommissioned in 1935. (Edit: I did write this before watching the video fully.)
@@zoiders They really weren't "serviceable". Perhaps they could have been, given enough money and time. I go into this in my book. The early guns are very light and more pleasing to the eye, but their trials results weren't great and the clearances inside that body and TMH were TIGHT compared to the big boxy XL70 series, which had way more R&D on it to get to the point that it got to in 1985 (not great). There's really no reason to think that the 'EWS' incarnation would have been any better - and it could have been even worse.
Would have been convenient if they engraved which ship the firearm was used on. I guess that would not exactly make sense considering they might move between ships every so often.
@@jacklurcher5813 I wonder, though, since it was a hospital ship--i.e., not supposed to be armed. But if the crew did have revolvers, that one might have been on board at some point.
@@F1ghteR41 I think they might make an exception for Leeds with the sheer weight of material in one place. I don't think you are their agent last time I checked?
@@zoiders You see, this general question is among the ones frequently adressed to them, and their answer is always along the lines I've given in my first reply, and now with additional confirmation from Jonathan. So as much as it is an interesting proposition, I wouldn't hold my breath.
@@chriscollins550 There are firing videos of weapons from the RA collection on this very channel, in fact, part of this exact series, there was one not that long ago.
Good question. If you look at the gun on the table at 1m ish, there's a 1cm space between the trigger and the back of the trigger guard. Same at around 2m10 just before Jonathan cocks the gun to show the cylinder locking lined with the barrel. After the gun is cocked, the trigger stays close to the trigger guard for the rest of the video.
@F1ghteR41 Yes from another collection. If you go to the fire Arms museum, it states all weapons owned or held by them are decommissioned. Due to uk law. They can bring in other private owners' guns and use them for show and none display use. But all the gun's they hold can not be fired. That's what I was told anyway. Don't know if it is true or not.
@@chriscollins550You are 100% wrong there fella. The Royal Armouries have specific permission to hold all types of Section 5 Firearms. Try reading up on what that means before commenting. Almost everything they own is live fire from muzzle loaders to modern machine guns.
Well as I note I'm sure that at least one of my predecessors had noticed this - it was even recorded on our database as such but if you don't know to look/look that up, and you're not going through cataloguing pistols of this type, you're not going to come across that.
@@chriscollins550 sorry for asking, but both questions could be right🙄 A BiG THKs for answering my question and greetings from a fmr.🇪🇺🏴☠️🪂🩺S0F member🫡😉
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ah yes, randomly finding amazingly rare guns in drawers, truly the British hexperience
@@Stefan_W. Mainly to secure them from looting soldiers in WW2.
@@peterstadlmaier3107no, soldiers kept their weapons after the war.
@@samholdsworth420 He meant that it was to secure it FROM the soldiers looting things. Yeah they kept their weapon and pretty much every other one they could get their hands on.
And to use later
No they didn’t
Especially the loosing side
Cunard holds the white star records might be worth an ask as their archives have been helpful with others
The Cunard Building, the old White Star HQ on James Street and 1 Tithebarn are all within a 1/4 mile radius, could be worth a trip across the Pennines for research. Probably won't find much at 1 Tithebarn now, it's a Costa Coffee. The Argentinian grill across from it well worth a visit though!
We reached out a few times but got nothing back. If anyone knows someone on the inside at Cunard get into our DMs.
This is why museums are so important. Lord knows what's been preserved in the back stacks.
Private collections are better for preservation. Most large museums only display a small amount of their collection and often much of the stuff in the back hasn't even been cataloged so you can't know if they have something
Visited Leeds last week and it was excellent. Would also heartily recommend the Titanic exhibition in Belfast, which is also brilliantly presented.
It's great but while there you also need to check out the Ulster Transport Museum's exhibition and SS Nomadic.
@@jonathanferguson1211 The Ulster Transport Museum also features a genuine DeLorean time machine.
@@georgebailey98 It's a vanilla DMC-12 rather than a 'time machine' version. I've seen the screen-used 'A' car from the movie in the US as well though.
Your discussion on the purpose of a shipboard firearm was an essential part of this presentation and you pulled it off with taste and no unnecessary drama--despite the grim reality of it all. Well done as usual, Jonathan!
So well presented. Sensitive to the realities of life which are still very much with us.
Thank you for saying that.
To talk more on a possible connection to titanic, the officers of the ship known to have guns were of course the four seniors issued the company revolvers, Lowe with his personal firearm, the Chief purser McElroy who is reported to have fired shots at the scene around collapsible A and I’ve seen it heavily speculated that the two masters at arms likely carried company weapons. The only two possible ways this revolver could’ve been aboard the titanic is, as mentioned, either it was taken off before departure, or if perhaps it was the revolver issued to master at arms Bailey, the only surviving warrant officer who was sent in charge of lifeboat 16. Very tenuous but technically possible.
Jonathan, these kinds of stories of the historical context of the weapon, even at the risk of some educated guessing, are personally so much more engaging than a deep-dive into nitty-gritty of the engineering, as interesting as that can be.
Your story was truly touching. Imagining this pistol in your hand, while ushering terrified people into the few lifeboats left. Officers, crew, and passengers alike, panicked, scared, and probably doomed.
Thanks Matt
Thank you Matt, it really is very evocative isn't it. Sadly we have relatively few objects with this sort of history but we always try to bring something of the design purpose and usage side of things if we can.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Yeah, understandable. In any case, your work as an educator is always appreciated.
Cool, a very cool old Webley. I'm a bit of a sucker for The Webley Family of Handcannons
The .455 Webley is not that powerful. The most powerful standard load is significantly less powerful than .45 ACP. ball load BTW, years ago I was in a gun shop in New Jersey where I got to handle a Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. I remember looking at the thing and thinking, 'This could only come from the laudanum soaked brain of a Victorian era Englishman." At the time it was pretty cheap, unfortunately I didn't buy it.
@@MrSloika .45ACP is essentially the proofing load for .455. When the MkVIs got sold off as surplus, American importers shaved off the back of the cylinder so you could use .45ACP in moon clips. I mean, the thing was massively overbuilt, and each chamber has been tested to 6 tons, but do you REALLY want to subject it to 12k psi every shot? I pick up some of the brass that comes out of my newish commercial-market 1911A1 and handload .45ACP to near as I can get to the original .455 pressure for mine.
@@MrSloikaNo its not "significantly" less powerful than .45 ACP. I think you need to read a ballistics table.
@MrSloika Yes.....BUT
The .455 Webley outperformed the .45 Colt in the Thompson Lagarde tests that resulted in 45ACP being adopted. On Paper ballistics don't mean everything
I have a late production Webley RIC
It's a solid frame and can handle hotter ( within reason) loads
Considering the (potential) lots of salty air it's been exposed too, and its general age, the finish actually is still in quite a good condition. What a pretty firearm!
I wonder if there's a clever way to deduce whether the loss of finish has something to do with the gun being used on high seas, so to speak, or was it the gun's later owner who handled it in such a way.
The nickel plating was likely chosen for the intended maritime usage. As long as the plating remains intact, there shouldn't be any degradation to rust. These types of security weapons generally don't see much hard use.
@@colbunkmust Not to mention the anecdote read by Jonathan mentions them being 'in grease'. Even if that's just a greasepaper wrapping and not grease on the gun itself, you've got to imagine that a gun that has been greased or wrapped like that, while being stored inside a box inside a drawer inside a closed-off cabin, is going to be exposed to no salt from the air whatsoever. Not until it actually gets taken out and used, anyway.
I went to the titanic museum in Tennessee. It was pretty cool. They had a room where it was as cold as the night it sank and had a tank of water you could stick your body in. Those people had to have frozen to death within a couple minutes.
Thanks for the CandRsenal shout out!!
I used to buy my firearms from Richard’s the gunsmiths in Liverpool, but sadly they shut their doors in the early 90’s.
Thanks for that Martin. A shame to be sure.
I remember them in Old Hall Street,there was another in India Buildings ground flloor.
Dunblane was the final nail in the coffin of British pistol sports
@@sharonrigs7999 Indeed. The original W. Richards does seem to have closed as a result. The current incarnation started up just four years later and is still going.
Love the history. It brings the human story to life. My MkVI belonged to a young Lt. who died on July 1, 1916. Following his death it went to serve in the Royal Horse Artillery. How it ever got to the US I’ll never know.
Lovely little piece honestly, even before knowing its history
I still remember the old episodes that looked and sounded like they were filmed with an integrated laptop webcam and microphone and now we have crisp high definition video, multiple angles and a decent microphone on top
After hearing Jonathans reading of the survivors account makes me want a full length audio book done by Jonathan Ferguson
Thank you for filling those gaps in time. It is a pleasure.
That was a stirring and very interesting account. Thank you!
Really interesting video Johnathan! Many thanks for the upload. You gave my club a talk on Mauser rifles, a few years ago at the Leeds Armouries. Your depth of knowledge on the subject was incredible. Best wishes my friend.
The British Plod were using Webleys well into the seventies. My mum was a firearms officer, no she never had to pull it. They were using if my memory is working after a couple of large gins, those bloody awful .38 Mk.5s Ian did an explainer on this week. My old man and mum hated them.
They usually had Enfields as they made far more of them. They switched to S&W Model 10s in the 70s by and large.
Why did they hate the revolvers?
@liammeech3702 i would guess because automatics would've existed for 70 years by that point
@@liammeech3702 The horrible double action.
Very interesting Jonathan, thank you. It would be wonderful to see you do and video on the Webley Mk.VI which has a remarkable history. Have scoured through past videos here but can’t see it here.
Thank you for not shying away from the history
Once again a top notch informative video from Jonathan
a interesting episode very sympathetic 👍
We need more info about naval guns history
Noted.
Well presented. Gosh the desperation and pandemonium aspect...Never thought of that before. I learned something.
Informative video on an evocative firearm. Thank you!
Very Interesting Jonathan , Great Stuff 💯 Thank you for Sharing 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Your passion for history and historic firearms really shined through in this video, so good!
Great photo of the RMS Olympic & RMS Titanic together, you can see the original 1st class dinning room of the Olympic, in White Swan Hotel, in Alnwick, Northumberland, it has made a very impressive room.
Great video and a super cool artifact! Great job of presenting this wonderfully interesting piece. Thank you.
Interesting as always keep them coming
Nice caption referencing without a doubt the best film about the titanic
A Night to Remember, you mean?
not that shite remake?
@@keithskelhorne3993 A Night To Remember was based on the book, but also had Titanic sink without breaking up. Yes, the story added to Titanic [1997] was m e h, but then again, a layman probably wouldn't like to watch a movie about a boat, without anything to interest them besides the ship, so you could go either way, and hope for the best if you chose to not add anything to the movie.
I'm kind of intrigued by the one dislike on the video. Maybe this series isn't for you old sport :D
That 'dislike' is from the Algorithm. It's got all self righteous since they made it AI. 😒
many reasons to dislike the video, but it wasn't me
Probably from somebody traumatized by _that damn song_ who reflexively hates all things Titanic.
@@AnomymAnonym Please do tell.
@@jonathanferguson1211 one example is how he talks to us like we're idiots, like ofcourse its not from the damn titanic... jeez
but for me it was not bad at all, i liked the video in its entirety, just some nit picking, thats all
A very interesting piece of history. I also found it interesting that the LSW's in the background had their bi-pods bound - a testament to the flimsy locking device maybe?
Kenneth More is wielding a blued pistol in that film-clip ... do I get a point for noticing?
You do :)
Yes. Well spotted. I expect a blued example was/is easier to come by than a nickel.
The Titanic accident happened in 1912. In those days gunlaw was in european countries much more liberal than now. A serious lawfull man could buy a pistol , but more paperwork, than buying a rifle or shotgun. For carring in some countries a licence was needed also in those days ( in my country Germany called Waffenschein). So i think/. assume, that in addition to the revolvers, belonging to the ships equipment, also some of the ships officers also had their private pistols on board. In case of civilians , open carry of weapons was in 1910s , even USA , Seen as unusual/ strange, but in this days there was annother ,honor' code than now. There had been laws about weapons, but in case of Noblemen or Gentlemen, authorities then often closed both eyes. The german word Kavaliersdelikt is a relict of this era.
I always love these what is this weapon videos. It is either an oddball I will learn about or the ones I find more fascinating are cases like this. It is obviously a webley revolver, so it is a question of what this particular one has on it to bring it here.
Also always love to see a shout out to c&rsenal's work on the history of firearms.
Great history to that gun. Johnathan it appears the trigger spring is broken, I have a MKIV on 7(1) and its hammer spring is broken… any idea where we could find replacement springs ?!?
Yes indeed - I got so carried away with the history on this one that I failed to mention it. Had I cocked it on camera I'd have remembered but I didn't see a need.
My great, great uncle was in the band on the Titanic.
Wow, really? Who was he?
@@jonathanferguson1211 probably the 1st one on the band stand,,,,
Getting to wonder around the Royal Armories would be a hoot ❤
Oh to have a shoot with some of the L86 LSWs Jonathan just has hanging around :')
Very odd question, but I was interested by you saying "all of the Titanic's weapons were at the bottom of the ocean" implying that there many of them assumingly of different type. What weapons were carried on-board passenger vessels of that time, who had them, and what was their purpose- was it all security related?
you mentioned in a reply that you contacted Cunard regarding the gun, but did you tru the Liverpool University White Star Line archives?
Lightoller was Mate on the Oceanic which went aground and was abandoned of Shetland
When the officer was given the ammunition for the pistol and told “you might need it” I got a bit of a chill. I guess the severity of these men’s situation finally sunk in.
(No pun intended)
Seems this particular example revolver has its rebound trigger spring broken since it does not returns to the double action position after depressing the trigger and lowering the hammer . nice gun , its quite a paradox that White Star had the prevention to keep guns to control the passangers and posible riots but did not had the same pevision in regards of security and life boats availability to save lives .. priorities i guess.
WSL had more lifeboats than needed at the time. The requirement was 16, WSL had 20. The idea was, ships would sink close to shore/land/other ships, for the sake of demonstrating it, lets say cargo-passenger ship S.S Alexander M. Drew struck a rock off the shore of Grimsby and is sinking, the trawlers and nearby ships would come to get the passengers, and the rest would use the lifeboats. Why 16 specifically, i don't know, but many things back then were different back then.
It having seen service on the Olympic is most probable, and it’s possible it was on the Britannic as well.
The 4" barrel seems proportionate to me. Neat and compact.
Since White Star Line had a bunch of ships around 1912, it's likely this could've also came from Olympic, Oceanic II, or other WSL ships at the time.
The Webley MK 4 is powerful and looks cool. Not as cool as the 6 but the 6 was 'it'! Webley made even a full auto revolver but I think it never sold much if any.
Is it possible to make a video about Bushman IDW, also known as Parker Hale PDW? As far as I know, this submachine gun was tested by British army.
Since Jonathan didn't point one out, I assume the White Star Line didn't include serial numbers or some other way of tying a revolver to a particular ship?
I dont think many of the "Titanic" pistols made it back,,,
We reached out to Cunard as we do have a serial on this but never got a response.
@@RoyalArmouriesHow odd, why do you think the never got back to you?
@@liammeech3702 Way of the world these days.
@@RoyalArmouriesthe White Star archives are at Liverpool University, did you try there?
It's fascinating that you could find yourself on an ocean liner facing the business end of a pistol.
Not much evidence of that in mass transit nowadays.
(Air marshalls on US airlines excepted.)
Hm? In german railway system you sometimes see patrols of german Federal Police or mostly unarmed patrols of Deutsche Bahn security guards .
In the UK it is not unusual to see armed police at main railway stations (Birmingham New Street in my case) and virtually guaranteed at UK international airports.
@@nickjames2370 : I believe you. My comment was only about german situation. In Germany police work at International airports and in railway system is mostly done by Federal Police. When necessary/ in addition by State Police of the german states. Officers' of Federal or State Police are armed with pistols ( in addition to police baton and Pepper Spray. Largest german railway company ( DB/ Deutsche Bahn) has also Security Guards, but usually without firearms.
Lightoller interpreted the order as woman and children only, while the other officer (can’t remember his name) went by women and children first. The capacity of the boats wasn’t known for sure, so many were lowered half full.
Love the content
I am not a weapons guy... but the Mark IV ..idk why.. but what damn nice gun
I am, but I was never that much interested in revolvers-with the exception of the Webley top-breakers. I do have the MK IV, only in .38 S&W (same gun, just down-sized) and it’s a really clever design. Were it not for the inherent drawback of the weak frame (you can’t really use the construction for more powerful revolver cartridges), I’d say it’d beat the side-swing construction: auto-ejection, easier to load (even single-handed) and far easier to clean… Love it.
I know Lightoller dropped his Webley when he wound up in the water, but I wonder if the other surviving officers like Lowe or Boxhall, whose boats weren’t capsized, might have kept theirs. That would be pretty damn cool for one of them to turn up.
4 on board and the other 3 were given to captain, chief officer, and first officer according to lightoller, none of whom survived.
Was that particular pistol damaged, or single action only...? A few of the close ups show hammer down but with the trigger rearwards.
Damaged, the spring is broken.
Dock watchman's pistol. Or Company HQ paymaster's pistol.
It looks great in nickel like this
The stories of guns being fired on the titanic were addressed well on the channel Historic Travels.
My grandfather worked on large civil construction projects, including a couple of multi-year projects in the Canadian Maritimes, in the 1920's. He won a Webley revolver in a poker game, that was purportedly from the Titanic. The pistol passed to my uncle, upon my grandfather's death. I learned about it's existence, several years after my uncle's death, after reading his journals. Unfortunately, my no-good, grifter cousin sold all my uncle's guns without waiting for the estate to be properly settled. No chance to ever verify it's origin (I'm doubtful it actually came from the Titanic, but you never know...)
Even if it didn't come from Titanic, it could have been from another WSL ship, like the Titanic's older[and initially more famous] sister ship Olympic, or other WSL ships at the time.
Fascinating!
fantastic video, does anyone know what the weapon on the far right (black handguard) is?
"Draw me like one of your English Bullpups" - This revolver when it saw Jonathan... 🤣👍
Always interesting content with Jonathan. I'm a bit concerned that he may be planning a coup based on the stash of weapons behind him... 😂😂😂
Imagine trying to arm a military force with the mishmash in the museum stores, though? What a logistics nightmare for ammunition. Particularly with some of the ones in there that would need _special, weird_ experimental or proprietary rounds.
@@johnladuke6475 Sounds like a fun idea for a videogame
@@3Dant Jonathan supplies the weapons, Ian and Hickock45 give strategies, Brandon Herrera also supplies weapons but the more fucked up ones, and Drobashevich supplies the ammo.
That one dislike is from the iceberg.
Is the trigger return spring broken, or if my memory serves the mainspring is an enormous V spring that doubles both purposes and the trigger seemed to be in the cocked single action position throughout the presentation?
Trigger return spring.
Congratulations to Chris Ball for suggesting this answer first!
2:26 On the contrary, some other commenters and yours truly have chosen a range of models, being unable to tell from the silhouette what it is exactly. It's good to know that it was indeed the right approach to answer! This, however, leaves unanswered one very important question: why does it look like single-action only?
2:52 The reason for it being that the .455 Mk II round isn't the fastest in the slightest and has a relatively modest charge, as far as I get it.
3:08 It has to be noted here that the early Mk I had a humped backstrap, so the Webleys kinda went full circle on this issue.
6:59 Then why is there a wear pattern? And why would one need a sling swivel on the grip, if the revolver wasn't holstered in a military fashion?
Without a holster, a lanyard is even more essential. Especially if you're going to be trying to maintain control of the pistol in a lifeboat, rather than dropping it accidentally over the side.
@@geodkyt A lanyard needs something to attach to not only on the revolver, but on your person as well. What would that be in this case, absent the typical military uniform and webbing designed for this purpose?
@@F1ghteR41 A lanyard can be easily tied round the wrist, tied through a button hole or onto the belt depending on its length. Various types of sword and edged weapons had lanyards/wrist straps going back millennia before military style webbing emerged, the concept of tying two things together so they can't get seperated is a fairly basic concept to come up with. Obviously it wouldn't be practical for officers to be running around with military style webbing on a regular basis however in the case of a disturbance where a pistol is required the officer may have to operate the gun under adverse conditions (wet, windy, wildly rocking ship etc.) and may be required to perform physical taks like jumping into a lifeboat, therefore a simple lanyard which can be quickly tied around any convenient body part or item of clothing is a quick and effective way to prevent him from losing the firearm by mistake.
@@Temujin1206 A wrist lanyard is a solid idea, indeed much akin to a sword knot, it just didn't cross my mind, so thank you.
On the other two I wouldn't be so sure. First, buttonholes might be covered over by the lifesaver vest, or pulling a lanyard through them might not be the easiest, especially given how hastily these guns were issued, if the account given in the video is anything to go by. As for the belts, they aren't all that common in the traditional navy uniforms, and officers especially preferred the more civilian outlook. If a belt were to be issued, however, a holster is an obvious next logical step, so if this was indeed the case, the issue would still be puzzling.
As a funny aside, if you were to see for yourself that even knowing about sword knots people might still have trouble considering other ways in which a weapon can be attached to one's person (say, a lance-sling), look no further than a partner of Royal Armouries, Matt Easton, who produced a number of videos on his channel *scholagladiatoria* essentially debating the notion that 'the concept of tying two things together so they can't get seperated' can go back many hundreds of years. Presuming wildly by your account handle, I would guess that you're very aware of numerous pieces of evidence to the contrary, so that, I warn you, might be an infuriating sight.
The trigger return spring is broken. I should have mentioned it but I was pressed for time and focusing on the history side.
Correct.
Correct.
I can only speculate but people like to handle firearms. Something I didn't think of at the time but is actually rather obvious is that this may well have been sold from service in the 1930s or so, and then owned, handled and likely fired by someone who didn't care to 'baby' it as a collector. The "sling swivel" is a lanyard loop and is not unusual on a Webley. WSL would have specified it and the new owners are not likely to see a need to remove it.
Is this one single action only? The trigger seems to always stay back (or is it faulty?) AFAIK all Webley models were (normally) DA/SA.
Jonathan said in another comment, broken spring
@@TheVirtuoso883 I see, thanks.
The Webley is one of the most British firearms of all times. Thank you for showing it to us Jonathan.
The kind of gun that can shoot things that are near, far, whereeeeeeever you are.
I missed the man J on Gamespot this last week.
I'm recording two more tomorrow, never fear. I was away for more than two weeks and we struggled to find time to get more 'in the bank'.
Is the trigger mechanism broken on it ???
It is (well, the trigger return spring is, to be more precise), Jonathan have mentioned it in several of his replies here in the comments.
Jonathan just flexing on us with racks of L86 LSW's in the background.
I knew it was related to the titanic
you should do an episode on the transformers megatron toy that transforms in to a walther p38.
It don´t realy matter. if what ships it was on is lost to history. It´s the right type of wepon. if you want to illustratet what revolver they had on Titanic.
In my mind, this may be more associated with the Olympic, rather than either the Titanic or the Brittanic. As that one actually survived to be decommissioned in 1935.
(Edit: I did write this before watching the video fully.)
Yes indeed. As I state in the video :)
fascinating one this
If I worked there, you'd have to pat me down every day😂
Why does it appear to be single action only? The trigger stays pinned to the rear even with the hammer down
Broken trigger spring.
Speaking of sinking ships, notice the rack of SA80's in the background.
Those are L86A1 Light Support Weapons and prototypes. The early XL prototypes were rather good. The later ones were rather pants.
@@zoiders I think "rather good" is pushing it to be honest :)
@@jonathanferguson1211 Serviceable AR18 derivatives that got worse the more they fiddled with them.
@@zoiders They really weren't "serviceable". Perhaps they could have been, given enough money and time. I go into this in my book. The early guns are very light and more pleasing to the eye, but their trials results weren't great and the clearances inside that body and TMH were TIGHT compared to the big boxy XL70 series, which had way more R&D on it to get to the point that it got to in 1985 (not great). There's really no reason to think that the 'EWS' incarnation would have been any better - and it could have been even worse.
Would have been convenient if they engraved which ship the firearm was used on. I guess that would not exactly make sense considering they might move between ships every so often.
Do you guys have an Insas or any other indian guns like the Ishaore 2A1
Probably. They have one of those fucked up Khyber Pass builds, so they probably have an Indian gun somewhere.
if id had to imagine my favourite video itd be a cunk x jonathan episode of whatever
I think that the trigger return needs to be fixed on that revolver
This example appears to be single action, but I thought MK IVs were double/single action. Did I miss something?
Yes, Jonathan stated in several comments that he had forgotten to mention that the trigger return spring on this revolver is broken.
Were any of the crew armed on the Britannic?
Seems very likely, the fact WSL were purchasing revolvers would indicate it was company policy.
@@jacklurcher5813 I wonder, though, since it was a hospital ship--i.e., not supposed to be armed. But if the crew did have revolvers, that one might have been on board at some point.
As your keeper of artillery any chance of some big guns please I know a few have survived.
Keep your eye out in the next few weeks ;)
The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few.
Very logical.
I really think you should invite C&R over to Leeds.
With their super-tight schedule and general attitude to travel I doubt that they would agree, sadly.
I have, more than once. They don't travel widely.
@@F1ghteR41 I think they might make an exception for Leeds with the sheer weight of material in one place. I don't think you are their agent last time I checked?
@@zoiders You see, this general question is among the ones frequently adressed to them, and their answer is always along the lines I've given in my first reply, and now with additional confirmation from Jonathan. So as much as it is an interesting proposition, I wouldn't hold my breath.
@@F1ghteR41And yet you aren't their agent? Are you?
Why's the trigger all the way back?
Decommissioned. None of these gun's they have will work. They had the firing pins removed or something else done so they would not fire.
@@chriscollins550 There are firing videos of weapons from the RA collection on this very channel, in fact, part of this exact series, there was one not that long ago.
Good question.
If you look at the gun on the table at 1m ish, there's a 1cm space between the trigger and the back of the trigger guard.
Same at around 2m10 just before Jonathan cocks the gun to show the cylinder locking lined with the barrel.
After the gun is cocked, the trigger stays close to the trigger guard for the rest of the video.
@F1ghteR41 Yes from another collection. If you go to the fire Arms museum, it states all weapons owned or held by them are decommissioned. Due to uk law. They can bring in other private owners' guns and use them for show and none display use. But all the gun's they hold can not be fired. That's what I was told anyway. Don't know if it is true or not.
@@chriscollins550You are 100% wrong there fella. The Royal Armouries have specific permission to hold all types of Section 5 Firearms. Try reading up on what that means before commenting. Almost everything they own is live fire from muzzle loaders to modern machine guns.
I'm shocked that rack of long silly weapons behind you, didnt bring you out in a rash or something!!
Not quite a barn find... but museum find just seems paradoxical.
Well as I note I'm sure that at least one of my predecessors had noticed this - it was even recorded on our database as such but if you don't know to look/look that up, and you're not going through cataloguing pistols of this type, you're not going to come across that.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Yeah, that's entirely fair enough! Must have been a very cool thing to discover nonetheless! 😁
Poor Webley, getting sent 2.5 miles to the bottom of the ocean! It didn't do anything to anyone!😢
just to say, when i heard "browning", i thought someone had brought a BAR
That would show that iceberg what for, what?
THAT'S WHITE STAR LINE PROPERTY!
@9:46 a eight or aid shoot????
Eight
@@chriscollins550 sorry for asking, but both questions could be right🙄
A BiG THKs for answering my question and greetings from a fmr.🇪🇺🏴☠️🪂🩺S0F member🫡😉