This is exactly what I feel when, as a classically trained guitarist, I began to learn piano: It did not sound right to me. Thanks for this thorough explanation.
Modern ears are accustomed to hearing equal tempered tuning, so the answer is that a recently tuned piano IS in tune, ie, in tune to modern standards. OK, tune it to mean tone, just temperament or any other original temperament and you will get a complaint from the pianist as he will not be able to play his normal repertoire. The issue of octave stretching is nothing to do with the human ear. It is a direct result of the piano string creating its own slightly sharp harmonics, a phenomenon called inharmonicity. A concert grand will have less stretching than a console upright due to the way the strings vibrate. The stretch ensures the octave string vibrates in unison with the harmonic of the fundamental string. This is why you should never tune a piano to an electronic device, apart from maybe using it to set the scale initially.
Nice answer. I agree with the character of inharmonicity, however, I do play and sing in professional ensembles often with no piano. We like stretched octaves. Is it because we are accustomed or because it is correct? It just might be too late in history to answer that one: except for the fact that Rudolf Steiner was the first one to mention over a century ago that an aurally pure 5th plus an aurally pure 4th produces an octave that is slightly larger than a 1:2 ratio in Hertz. He was not limiting this phenomenon to tightly pulled strings. I also agree with the comment about the electronic device (I got yelled at in a 'reply' for scolding a clarinetist for using one). Because it was electronic as much as the fact that is was set to equal temperament. We should not spoil our enrichment of musical art by using equal temperament. It is a fast and poorly justified way to tune an instrument with fixed pitch (like a piano). It was originally dubbed "A crime against nature" by pianists, other musicians, critics and the audience when first introduced. It took a national guild to shove it down our ears before it took hold. Kind of like the 'big bang theory' which we also know now is wrong.
From a physics point of view, any interval of which you can hear "beats" is out of tune. This means that the only interval on the piano that is in tune is the octave. Something I learnt from being a wind/flute player in a wind orchestra: In a major chord, we tend to flatten the 3rd to achieve a "beatless" harmony. That's what we call tuning in pure temperament. Strictly and accurately speaking, if we are playing an A(440hz) major chord, and you're playing the 3rd (C#), you would play that C# at EXACTLY 550hz. The frequency ratio for a pure tempered major third is 5:4 (ie. 550hz:440hz). But in an equal tempered piano your C# just above the A(440hz) is NOT 550hz, but slightly higher than that. Just thought this might be interesting additional info for others viewing this video. I loved studying the physics of sound and harmony back when I was a kid. :D
This is good observation. [Don't forget that minor thirds and tri-tones are also in-tune using ET] . Also, when expert musicians cadence on the tonic, wind players do tend to flatten the third to get the beat-less harmony. This is not "pure temperament" as you say, but pure and UN-tempered tuning which is called "Just Tuning". String players will tend to sharpen the third to give it a little energy. This takes the lazyness away from the cadence. Neither is wrong: This third is the result of "True Tuning". True Tuning was used by the classical Greeks in their modes. By taking the seven tones produced by the True Dorian octachord and the True Tone C Major scale and obtaining the five remaining tones formed from the "geometric mean tones" of those produced already (referenced to prime [C-128Hz]) we get a 12 tone scale that is aurally genuine in all 24 major and minor keys. Now, a reasonably good piano can be "in tune" in all keys. Very few masters can actually do this. They are not technicians, are also hard to find and well paid! How is that for your "physics of sound" appetite? If you love physics even more . . . how is it that the 'big bang' could never have happened or never will happen with what we know about the 'laws of physics' and our own galaxy? Again, as in tuning, the prejudiced masses have been lying to us LOUDLY.
Big time to stop this general mistake with the pure octave! The octave must participate for eliminate the comma! The best equal temperament don't have any pure interval except the unisson!
MrTommy4000 You mean the unisson of 2 or 3 string must be beatless? If so, yes! In general JI don't works when we have modulations. Maximum near to JI is only the new equal temperament where we have no one pure interval! For exemple there the octave have a multiplier 2.002 instead of 2.000. This temperament is used in the best classical orchestra! But the dogmatism do not permit to stop with JI and the microtonal deviations for...no musicians!
@@dennisdougherty7538 again, minor third and tritone, I don't get what you are defining as pure minor third and tritone. I would like to know exactly what ratios you used
that is also the reason why a string orchestra withou a piano can almost (1 to 2 cent 1/100 of a semitone) play in perfect intervals. also brassbands , good one can play very correctly in tune .
I have a Thomas Trianon organ. It has 12 tone generators that with the addition of frequency splitters produce all the necessary notes. Your little tute has answered the question why after tuning the organ’s top octaves, the top octave in particular, really don’t sound right. It thought it was my tinnitus.
Also atmospheric conditions or whatever can put your instrument out of tune. String player: "Let me just tune up before I play..." Piano player: "Let me just get my credit card and call the piano tuner..."
Thanks for the explanation! Now I understand why while I was playing some phrases from Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody 14 on my guitar at the same time with the pianist, the same notes on my guitar were sounding out of tune. Thanks!
Hi Robert, Just to say that I really enjoyed your explanation, which was very well presented. Having embarked on a (short) TH-cam series about Pythagoras's famous Circle of Fifths, I am just coming up to the final section in which I am going to (try!) explain the characters (colors) of various keys within the circle - (mellow flats to the left, and bright sharp keys to the right) - but then I am going to (try!!) to attempt to explain the subtle difference between the darkest key of Gb and enharmonic mate - F# which is as bright as white light. On a keyboard, these two keys really do represent the "YingYang" of harmony. To me, it feels rather like staring into a piece of black jet mineral : stare long enough, and the absolute blackness seems to reflect pure white light. Incidentally, I notice you have a Baldwin Piano. I used to work for the Baldwin Piano & Organ Co., in the UK during the late 1970's, as their "Chief European Concert Artist" (they gave me a fancy job title, rather than a brilliant salary!) and well remember the fabulous Bell Tone strings which gave Baldwin pianos their own unique character. Nice to hear one again... happy days. Best wishes from Sweden - Peter :)
However, to provide a more complete picture, you could add the element of inharmonicity which is just a fancy term describing the stiffness of piano wire accounting for the various harmonics NOT being mathematically correct. So, for instance when you stated that the A above A440 was a tad sharp this is the result of tuning the upper note by an amount equal to the sharpness in pitch based on this inharmonicity.
I’d say that whether a piano is in tune depends on what you’re looking at. If you’re referring it to the equal temperament, then it’s in tune. But if you’re referring it to perfect intervals/consonance, then only the octave is in tune. Since the maths just don’t add up (e.g. with the ideal fourth and fifth having a second between them, a jump of six of these seconds doesn’t exactly reach an octave above), how about other instruments like violins or flute? I guess it’s like tuning on the fly, as the players modify the pitch slightly to achieve consonance. Meaning that each “note” doesn’t have a fixed pitch...
Uauh! I knew, of course, of temperament and I expected you to say that the equalization would bring some notes out of tune... but the higher octaves nit being a multiple of the previous octaves? I am surprised, I really did not expect this. Do you mean that usually all the tuner technicians do use a slightly higher pitch for the higher octaves? Is it xommon practice?
Cool. Now, what about the notes that use multiple strings? Aren't the strings in each set (note) slightly out of tune with each other? My synthesizer has two "voices" and a detune control, which determines how close the two voices are in pitch for each note. The control ranges from 0 to 6. I have it set to 2 for my standard piano sound. If I set it to 0 (which sets the pitches the same), it sounds too plain. It's awful! If I set it higher than 2, the sound is dissonant. So isn't a similar thing done for notes that have multiple strings? And just how are the strings set? Do you have a video about this? If not, can you please make one? Thanks! (^_^)
Yes Arburo, it is just a getting the harmonics right in the neighbour octaves so what you hear is accepatable . The harmonics on steel strings sound higher then the theoretical one so you have to compensate . Not so easy task ! That is why there are big differences between pianotuners and ther quality of work Pat, Belgian pianotuner
Electric pianos do have an advantage with this "inharmonicity" characteristic of stringed pianos but have so far been tuned to a temperament we call "Equal Temperament". This only produces minor thirds, tritones and octaves that are in-tune. The other intervals are out. The problem being that you may not recognize this until you hear a piano that has been tuned to a "genuine" system (non tempered). Then even non musicians hear the difference! Very few can do this actually.
@@dennisdougherty7538 the pianos are in tune but not perfectly is it your point? all keys are in tune but not perfectly? if it is evry 12 keys it is 1 octav and every octav is in tune wich means that all 88 notes al in tune but not in perfect tune
@@ivanfrangugic8355 Hello Ivan. Your question shows I should re-word my comment. This Equal Temperament system he talks about here is, by definition of 'temperament' a compromise which was first greeted as "A crime against nature". The unfortunate result of the 'unknowing' techincal people getting involved in the wrong place. When an international-class musician finally stepped up to the challenge in was solved with two limitations: 1) the limit of only 12 tones because of piano construction and performance limitations. 2) we needed to find what sounded "genuine" to the human ear. Maria Renold's "genuine" tuning system can be heard on TH-cam at: th-cam.com/video/dXpp4cDCR4Q/w-d-xo.html : th-cam.com/video/s2E32nVUM-0/w-d-xo.html : th-cam.com/video/6Zt8x6PM1HY/w-d-xo.html : th-cam.com/video/Hca3Rh3p4W4/w-d-xo.html Keep in mind that tuning A=440Hz is NOT in tune with any system.
@@dennisdougherty7538 so it sounds like in tune but to humen ears. i mean when you tune your piano it sounds in tune but not perfect. i played one steinway just 2 days after tuning and ther was something missing in tone and tune the 3rd was sounded so tune- untuned, same thing with my eletric piano. But it is always fun to trying to tune to the "perfect level". More you tune, more stabil it is, but it will never be perfect, risn't it?
Great video! Always keeping musicians on their feet! (or at the edge of their stool) To add, there is another level of imperfect tuning that occurs because of our limitations of detecting a specific pitch. For example: Our ears are not nearly as accurate as a stroboscope in an electronic strobe tuner. And even then, the stroboscope has a certain degree of accuracy when detecting the frequency (pitch) of a sound. It may never be able to completely detect a phenomenon like a sound.
Excellent and simple explanation - greatly appreciated. On a side note; if one has the money and isn't a tuning pro, please let someone else tune your piano. You will forever hear all the problems and it will send you into madness We gave it shot many years ago on our little studio piano. We also play other instruments including guitar. Thinking we'd know what things should sound like, it quickly drove us to near insanity. A couple of the notes actually went from sharp to flat while holding a sustained note. A condition many musicians would never tolerate. I believe the piano needs new strings as old strings can affect intonation and tuning on things like guitar. Just a thought. As mentioned in the video, I'd get it to sound wonderful in one place or playing certain combinations of notes, only to have it sound bad elsewhere. Best to pay someone who is trained for it and then blame them, lol. After seeing what they go through, they earn their money anyway! As the title states, it simply can't be done.
Read my full comment to Arburo1 up the page. In a very skilled and precise manner a piano can be aurally in-tune in all 24 major and minor keys. Just because you or your tuner can not do it, does not mean it is impossible. But if you try and go slightly astray, it will drive you crazy once you have heard how wonderful it is. Listen to my recording of the Danzi Sonata Concertante done at A=432Hz or the two of pianist Avguste Antonov playing William Vollinger's 'Dreams Before You Awake'.
So, the answer for this question is because in the past the instruments were tuned based on a specific key the works were composed adn the modern piano is not tuned in any specific key? Then a tuning which is not based on specific keys means it is not in tune??
Very interesting . . . even in human voice, I remember Joan Sutherland saying that she had relative pitch, but not perfect pitch. I have heard people say they would rather hear a person who was sharp than flat . . . is that part of the reason pianos are also tuned in the manner they are?
99% of people of people have relative pitch-- that's called being normal. As for preferring sharp over flat, that is unrelated to equal temperament on a piano. Generally, when singing with a piano, a vocalist will blend with the piano's temperament, as opposed to trying to be sharp and compensate for the harmonic imperfections created by equal temperament. Typically, people just agree that sharpness sounds better than flatness. It sounds more supported and preserves the integrity of the melody better than being flat. I've even heard that some soloists will tune their instrument just a hair sharp in order to make their melodic line pop just a little bit more.
Along that train of thought, Jo Stafford, who was reportedly to have perfect pitch, purposely sang off key on one recording as a joke and to show her control. There are very few people today, who have much more than fleeting talent, but when it comes to work ethic, paying your dues and endurance . . . they just can't stand the test of time. A few examples of classic singers that have endured long after their lives were over are: Rosemary Clooney, Peggy Lee, Ella Fitzgerald, and Doris Day . . . to name a few.
Someone may have already developed the algorithm detailing the exact frequencies of every white and black key, but what will always rule a great tuning is a great ear.
While all this is true, many pianist do not recognize out-of-tune unisons. They are simply deaf to the problem. Other problems occur causing falling or sharpening due to humidity and temperature. I watched a video of an older man doing a great mechanical job of playing a hymn. The unisons were biting, and the tonal problems were numerous. I would not post that video on the web. Cheers
No, because it is generally tuned like an acoustic piano--mostly slightly out of tune. A good one may hold its tuning forever, but it was never tuned "perfectly" to begin with, and this was done for the same reasons as for an acoustic piano--a compromise to achieve acceptable results across the wide frequency range of pianos.
Nicely presented, yet keep in mind that a GREAT tuning is actually IN TUNE (in all 24 major and minor western musical keys) and an average tuner uses the equal temperament system. It appears you are about 40 years out of touch with the finest tuning techniques used today: . . . and by the way, A-440 is 'out of tune' with nature. It also is interesting to me that I have find that a non-musician will recognize and appreciate a piano that is aurally 'in-tune' over one that is perfectly 'equal tempered' (ET) faster than someone who has been conditioned by ET.
I once paid for my piano to be tuned. After watching him I have done it myself ever since. It's not hard or complicated or mathematical or any branch of physics. You just listen to it. Because there are more strings it takes longer than a guitar. Did I miss the part where you talked about the other tuning systems?
Well hold on a second here. We don't make music for tuners, we make it for human ears to listen to. We don't make music for physics, we make music for enjoyment, so really it is in tune so long as it sounds in tune, since the whole purpose of music is to be listened to. For real, why would someone want to listen to a flat piano? What would be the purpose of that?
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Johan Sebastian Bach wrote a whole piano book dedicated to what equal temperament achieves.
Such a well tempered cavalier ;)
This is exactly what I feel when, as a classically trained guitarist, I began to learn piano: It did not sound right to me. Thanks for this thorough explanation.
Modern ears are accustomed to hearing equal tempered tuning, so the answer is that a recently tuned piano IS in tune, ie, in tune to modern standards. OK, tune it to mean tone, just temperament or any other original temperament and you will get a complaint from the pianist as he will not be able to play his normal repertoire.
The issue of octave stretching is nothing to do with the human ear. It is a direct result of the piano string creating its own slightly sharp harmonics, a phenomenon called inharmonicity. A concert grand will have less stretching than a console upright due to the way the strings vibrate. The stretch ensures the octave string vibrates in unison with the harmonic of the fundamental string. This is why you should never tune a piano to an electronic device, apart from maybe using it to set the scale initially.
Nice answer. I agree with the character of inharmonicity, however, I do play and sing in professional ensembles often with no piano. We like stretched octaves. Is it because we are accustomed or because it is correct? It just might be too late in history to answer that one: except for the fact that Rudolf Steiner was the first one to mention over a century ago that an aurally pure 5th plus an aurally pure 4th produces an octave that is slightly larger than a 1:2 ratio in Hertz. He was not limiting this phenomenon to tightly pulled strings. I also agree with the comment about the electronic device (I got yelled at in a 'reply' for scolding a clarinetist for using one). Because it was electronic as much as the fact that is was set to equal temperament. We should not spoil our enrichment of musical art by using equal temperament. It is a fast and poorly justified way to tune an instrument with fixed pitch (like a piano). It was originally dubbed "A crime against nature" by pianists, other musicians, critics and the audience when first introduced. It took a national guild to shove it down our ears before it took hold. Kind of like the 'big bang theory' which we also know now is wrong.
From a physics point of view, any interval of which you can hear "beats" is out of tune. This means that the only interval on the piano that is in tune is the octave.
Something I learnt from being a wind/flute player in a wind orchestra: In a major chord, we tend to flatten the 3rd to achieve a "beatless" harmony. That's what we call tuning in pure temperament. Strictly and accurately speaking, if we are playing an A(440hz) major chord, and you're playing the 3rd (C#), you would play that C# at EXACTLY 550hz. The frequency ratio for a pure tempered major third is 5:4 (ie. 550hz:440hz). But in an equal tempered piano your C# just above the A(440hz) is NOT 550hz, but slightly higher than that.
Just thought this might be interesting additional info for others viewing this video. I loved studying the physics of sound and harmony back when I was a kid. :D
octaves are NOT pure. they are stretched wide of pure. 2 and 3 string notes should be pure, that is middle c has 3 strings, they need to be perfect
This is good observation. [Don't forget that minor thirds and tri-tones are also in-tune using ET] . Also, when expert musicians cadence on the tonic, wind players do tend to flatten the third to get the beat-less harmony. This is not "pure temperament" as you say, but pure and UN-tempered tuning which is called "Just Tuning". String players will tend to sharpen the third to give it a little energy. This takes the lazyness away from the cadence. Neither is wrong: This third is the result of "True Tuning". True Tuning was used by the classical Greeks in their modes. By taking the seven tones produced by the True Dorian octachord and the True Tone C Major scale and obtaining the five remaining tones formed from the "geometric mean tones" of those produced already (referenced to prime [C-128Hz]) we get a 12 tone scale that is aurally genuine in all 24 major and minor keys. Now, a reasonably good piano can be "in tune" in all keys. Very few masters can actually do this. They are not technicians, are also hard to find and well paid! How is that for your "physics of sound" appetite?
If you love physics even more . . . how is it that the 'big bang' could never have happened or never will happen with what we know about the 'laws of physics' and our own galaxy? Again, as in tuning, the prejudiced masses have been lying to us LOUDLY.
Big time to stop this general mistake with the pure octave! The octave must participate for eliminate the comma! The best equal temperament don't have any pure interval except the unisson!
MrTommy4000 You mean the unisson of 2 or 3 string must be beatless? If so, yes! In general JI don't works when we have modulations. Maximum near to JI is only the new equal temperament where we have no one pure interval! For exemple there the octave have a multiplier 2.002 instead of 2.000. This temperament is used in the best classical orchestra! But the dogmatism do not permit to stop with JI and the microtonal deviations for...no musicians!
@@dennisdougherty7538 again, minor third and tritone, I don't get what you are defining as pure minor third and tritone. I would like to know exactly what ratios you used
it is alway in tune but never perfect...is it what you trying to say?
that is also the reason why a string orchestra withou a piano can almost (1 to 2 cent 1/100 of a semitone) play in perfect intervals. also brassbands , good one can play very correctly in tune .
Don't forget choirs! Good observation.
I have a Thomas Trianon organ. It has 12 tone generators that with the addition of frequency splitters produce all the necessary notes. Your little tute has answered the question why after tuning the organ’s top octaves, the top octave in particular, really don’t sound right. It thought it was my tinnitus.
Robert Thank you! You never fail to deliver! Always amazing content that leaves me wanting to listen for more!
Thanks so much!
Thank you sir, that was a great information. Looking forward for more.
my piano is always in tune, the secret is lowering your standards. :P
Should you not say "lowering MY standards". Speaking for yourself only!
You have a piano?
I will buy digital piano, it is fake I know but tolerant.
Wow! What a fantastic explanation! Thank you.
One of your most fascinating videos Robert. Great stuff!
Also atmospheric conditions or whatever can put your instrument out of tune.
String player: "Let me just tune up before I play..."
Piano player: "Let me just get my credit card and call the piano tuner..."
Thanks for the explanation! Now I understand why while I was playing some phrases from Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody 14 on my guitar at the same time with the pianist, the same notes on my guitar were sounding out of tune. Thanks!
I love hearing the historical reasoning behind musical instruments. Thanks for the perspective!
you are a very smart man robert. I love tuning pianos, especially in historical temperaments!
Keep up the history!
Great video!
Hi Robert, Just to say that I really enjoyed your explanation, which was very well presented. Having embarked on a (short) TH-cam series about Pythagoras's famous Circle of Fifths, I am just coming up to the final section in which I am going to (try!) explain the characters (colors) of various keys within the circle - (mellow flats to the left, and bright sharp keys to the right) - but then I am going to (try!!) to attempt to explain the subtle difference between the darkest key of Gb and enharmonic mate - F# which is as bright as white light.
On a keyboard, these two keys really do represent the "YingYang" of harmony. To me, it feels rather like staring into a piece of black jet mineral : stare long enough, and the absolute blackness seems to reflect pure white light.
Incidentally, I notice you have a Baldwin Piano. I used to work for the Baldwin Piano & Organ Co., in the UK during the late 1970's, as their "Chief European Concert Artist" (they gave me a fancy job title, rather than a brilliant salary!) and well remember the fabulous Bell Tone strings which gave Baldwin pianos their own unique character. Nice to hear one again... happy days.
Best wishes from Sweden - Peter :)
HaywardMusic Thanks for the comments. I'll have to check out your TH-cam series, it sounds interesting.
However, to provide a more complete picture, you could add the element of inharmonicity which is just a fancy term describing the stiffness of piano wire accounting for the various harmonics NOT being mathematically correct. So, for instance when you stated that the A above A440 was a tad sharp this is the result of tuning the upper note by an amount equal to the sharpness in pitch based on this inharmonicity.
I’d say that whether a piano is in tune depends on what you’re looking at. If you’re referring it to the equal temperament, then it’s in tune. But if you’re referring it to perfect intervals/consonance, then only the octave is in tune.
Since the maths just don’t add up (e.g. with the ideal fourth and fifth having a second between them, a jump of six of these seconds doesn’t exactly reach an octave above), how about other instruments like violins or flute? I guess it’s like tuning on the fly, as the players modify the pitch slightly to achieve consonance. Meaning that each “note” doesn’t have a fixed pitch...
Uauh! I knew, of course, of temperament and I expected you to say that the equalization would bring some notes out of tune... but the higher octaves nit being a multiple of the previous octaves? I am surprised, I really did not expect this. Do you mean that usually all the tuner technicians do use a slightly higher pitch for the higher octaves? Is it xommon practice?
Cool. Now, what about the notes that use multiple strings? Aren't the strings in each set (note) slightly out of tune with each other?
My synthesizer has two "voices" and a detune control, which determines how close the two voices are in pitch for each note. The control ranges from 0 to 6. I have it set to 2 for my standard piano sound. If I set it to 0 (which sets the pitches the same), it sounds too plain. It's awful! If I set it higher than 2, the sound is dissonant.
So isn't a similar thing done for notes that have multiple strings? And just how are the strings set?
Do you have a video about this? If not, can you please make one? Thanks! (^_^)
That's interesting! I never knew that about pianos.
Yes Arburo, it is just a getting the harmonics right in the neighbour octaves so what you hear is accepatable . The harmonics on steel strings sound higher then the theoretical one so you have to compensate . Not so easy task ! That is why there are big differences between pianotuners and ther quality of work Pat, Belgian pianotuner
My piano is fully tuned
Because I have an electric piano
Electric pianos do have an advantage with this "inharmonicity" characteristic of stringed pianos but have so far been tuned to a temperament we call "Equal Temperament". This only produces minor thirds, tritones and octaves that are in-tune. The other intervals are out. The problem being that you may not recognize this until you hear a piano that has been tuned to a "genuine" system (non tempered). Then even non musicians hear the difference! Very few can do this actually.
Not a Furry 😂😂
@@dennisdougherty7538 the pianos are in tune but not perfectly is it your point? all keys are in tune but not perfectly? if it is evry 12 keys it is 1 octav and every octav is in tune wich means that all 88 notes al in tune but not in perfect tune
@@ivanfrangugic8355 Hello Ivan. Your question shows I should re-word my comment. This Equal Temperament system he talks about here is, by definition of 'temperament' a compromise which was first greeted as "A crime against nature". The unfortunate result of the 'unknowing' techincal people getting involved in the wrong place. When an international-class musician finally stepped up to the challenge in was solved with two limitations: 1) the limit of only 12 tones because of piano construction and performance limitations. 2) we needed to find what sounded "genuine" to the human ear. Maria Renold's "genuine" tuning system can be heard on TH-cam at: th-cam.com/video/dXpp4cDCR4Q/w-d-xo.html :
th-cam.com/video/s2E32nVUM-0/w-d-xo.html :
th-cam.com/video/6Zt8x6PM1HY/w-d-xo.html :
th-cam.com/video/Hca3Rh3p4W4/w-d-xo.html
Keep in mind that tuning A=440Hz is NOT in tune with any system.
@@dennisdougherty7538 so it sounds like in tune but to humen ears. i mean when you tune your piano it sounds in tune but not perfect. i played one steinway just 2 days after tuning and ther was something missing in tone and tune the 3rd was sounded so tune- untuned, same thing with my eletric piano. But it is always fun to trying to tune to the "perfect level".
More you tune, more stabil it is, but it will never be perfect, risn't it?
Great video! Always keeping musicians on their feet! (or at the edge of their stool)
To add, there is another level of imperfect tuning that occurs because of our limitations of detecting a specific pitch. For example: Our ears are not nearly as accurate as a stroboscope in an electronic strobe tuner. And even then, the stroboscope has a certain degree of accuracy when detecting the frequency (pitch) of a sound. It may never be able to completely detect a phenomenon like a sound.
c
Stroboscopic tuner can show to our ears the corect tunning but only if it is made by competent people!!!
The beating is usefull to stay in tune!
Excellent and simple explanation - greatly appreciated. On a side note; if one has the money and isn't a tuning pro, please let someone else tune your piano. You will forever hear all the problems and it will send you into madness We gave it shot many years ago on our little studio piano. We also play other instruments including guitar. Thinking we'd know what things should sound like, it quickly drove us to near insanity. A couple of the notes actually went from sharp to flat while holding a sustained note. A condition many musicians would never tolerate. I believe the piano needs new strings as old strings can affect intonation and tuning on things like guitar. Just a thought. As mentioned in the video, I'd get it to sound wonderful in one place or playing certain combinations of notes, only to have it sound bad elsewhere. Best to pay someone who is trained for it and then blame them, lol. After seeing what they go through, they earn their money anyway! As the title states, it simply can't be done.
Read my full comment to Arburo1 up the page. In a very skilled and precise manner a piano can be aurally in-tune in all 24 major and minor keys. Just because you or your tuner can not do it, does not mean it is impossible. But if you try and go slightly astray, it will drive you crazy once you have heard how wonderful it is. Listen to my recording of the Danzi Sonata Concertante done at A=432Hz or the two of pianist Avguste Antonov playing William Vollinger's 'Dreams Before You Awake'.
So, the answer for this question is because in the past the instruments were tuned based on a specific key the works were composed adn the modern piano is not tuned in any specific key? Then a tuning which is not based on specific keys means it is not in tune??
Very interesting . . . even in human voice, I remember Joan Sutherland saying that she had relative pitch, but not perfect pitch. I have heard people say they would rather hear a person who was sharp than flat . . . is that part of the reason pianos are also tuned in the manner they are?
99% of people of people have relative pitch-- that's called being normal. As for preferring sharp over flat, that is unrelated to equal temperament on a piano. Generally, when singing with a piano, a vocalist will blend with the piano's temperament, as opposed to trying to be sharp and compensate for the harmonic imperfections created by equal temperament.
Typically, people just agree that sharpness sounds better than flatness. It sounds more supported and preserves the integrity of the melody better than being flat. I've even heard that some soloists will tune their instrument just a hair sharp in order to make their melodic line pop just a little bit more.
Along that train of thought, Jo Stafford, who was reportedly to have perfect pitch, purposely sang off key on one recording as a joke and to show her control. There are very few people today, who have much more than fleeting talent, but when it comes to work ethic, paying your dues and endurance . . . they just can't stand the test of time. A few examples of classic singers that have endured long after their lives were over are: Rosemary Clooney, Peggy Lee, Ella Fitzgerald, and Doris Day . . . to name a few.
Boy, I hope there will be a few more in the future - otherwise we should "quit while ahead".
don´t confuse them poor piano players.;-) I enjoyed the video anyway, thanks mic.
So you can tune a fish but you can't tune a piano?
salmon is more healthy than tun-a fish lol :D
What about tuna guitar?
I like tuna surprise
what is the reason can't tune in concert pitch in piano
Every song on my piano is the soundtrack for a haunted house. I have the wrench and the ear but my patience…
What about e.piano?
Someone may have already developed the algorithm detailing the exact frequencies of every white and black key, but what will always rule a great tuning is a great ear.
While all this is true, many pianist do not recognize out-of-tune unisons. They are simply deaf to the problem. Other problems occur causing falling or sharpening due to humidity and temperature. I watched a video of an older man doing a great mechanical job of playing a hymn. The unisons were biting, and the tonal problems were numerous. I would not post that video on the web. Cheers
Good explanation but when I read the ocmments many don't understand this :)
A piano is never in tune ... very funny phrase but it makes sense to me!!! haha~~~ Awesome statement!!!
Is it a sad instrument
This guy is so cool, you should make more videos.
now I am confused
Wait... So tuners are actually out of tune?😅
Is an E-Piano always in perfect tune?
No. Equal temperment is based on the square root of 12 which is an irrational number
No, because it is generally tuned like an acoustic piano--mostly slightly out of tune. A good one may hold its tuning forever, but it was never tuned "perfectly" to begin with, and this was done for the same reasons as for an acoustic piano--a compromise to achieve acceptable results across the wide frequency range of pianos.
Nicely presented, yet keep in mind that a GREAT tuning is actually IN TUNE (in all 24 major and minor western musical keys) and an average tuner uses the equal temperament system. It appears you are about 40 years out of touch with the finest tuning techniques used today: . . . and by the way, A-440 is 'out of tune' with nature. It also is interesting to me that I have find that a non-musician will recognize and appreciate a piano that is aurally 'in-tune' over one that is perfectly 'equal tempered' (ET) faster than someone who has been conditioned by ET.
FYI: It's not supposed to be in tune:
I would be sad because my piano voice isn't like on videos and TV.😥😰😭
I once paid for my piano to be tuned. After watching him I have done it myself ever since. It's not hard or complicated or mathematical or any branch of physics. You just listen to it. Because there are more strings it takes longer than a guitar. Did I miss the part where you talked about the other tuning systems?
Well hold on a second here. We don't make music for tuners, we make it for human ears to listen to. We don't make music for physics, we make music for enjoyment, so really it is in tune so long as it sounds in tune, since the whole purpose of music is to be listened to. For real, why would someone want to listen to a flat piano? What would be the purpose of that?
Perfectly out of tune ❤️
Well this seems too complicated, I don't think I want to learn piano anymore.
Wut
Maybe your ear is never in tune...and your video also...
I sure hope your ear is 'in-tune' playing the violin!
Dennis Dougherty After 60 years playng violin I hope so...