SHOULD FUTURE SIGHT BE HIGHER AND FRUSTRATION BE USED TO COUNTER DITTO?! SCROLL DOWN TO FIND OUT Yes but pls still comment, I need the engagement, thank you for watching. Chat argued for Future Sight to be higher AND someone mentioned Frusration countering ditto, I cut all of that! TOO PREMIUM!
There is one game where Attract is one of the best moves available: Pokémon Red/Blue Rescue Team. That game doesn’t have genders, so Attract always works. Oh, and the odds of being unable to move were increased from 50% to *100%*. It does wear off now… after enough turns to kill any non-boss… and most bosses. Since Attract is a near universal TM, there’s basically no reason not to run it.
frustration actually has somewhat of a niche on pokemon showdown if you end up fighting a ditto. say you're a normal type sweeper, you set up swords dance and are prepared to sweep a weakened enemy team with return. choice scarf imposter ditto can cut you short, it'll copy your boost and uno reverse card you with its own return sweep. HOWEVER if you run 0 friendship and frustration, the default friendship on showdown is the max 255, so the enemy ditto is very likely to be max friendship, preventing an enemy ditto from doing any damage via frustration. and because frustration is the exact same move as return, you effectively lose nothing in the vaccum of a simulator where you can always have a max power frustration. i actually lost because i didnt know this once, and tried clicking frustration on my ditto.
Sounds... FRUSTRATING AHAHAHA Someone did actually mentioned frustration wrecking ditto, but it got cut from the premium. ...Probably should have left it in.
@@ImportedCheese appreciate the pun, it was honestly more funny than frustrating though haha. one of those things where i was like "why did my stab frustration only do like 3%? ....oh my god."
I think your filler tier is a very good idea. There are lots of pokemon moves that are learnt in the early game and they're meant for the early game. Or need to be used by pokemon with limited movepools. It's a very good tier list I think.
Fun fact, Rivalry, a normally useless ability, was actually used in Worlds at VGC on Haxerous specifically to kill the Genies. The guy using it only lost to Ray Rizzo, so it was obviously pretty damn good.
Ray Rizzo actually knew the Haxorus had Rivalry, because his opponent had made it so far through Worlds, so he changed the gender of his non-genie pokemon to be female, so the Haxorus was basically stuck with -30% damage, and thats how Ray Rizzo won.
@@loudwhispre9406 More or less. I wouldn't say it was how he won, but it definitely helped. The Genies were the main target, so even just taking them out is worth the team slot by itself. They were broken as hell lol.
Baton Pass even works with no-boost fast Pokemon. It allows faster Pokemon to switch after the opponent switches because it's a move, not a switch. It sounds pretty niche, but if you have baton pass you basically always push it instead of switching.
It's funny you talked about mean look and spider web in the more competitive context because I remember figuring out I can use my Crobat to mean look the roaming legendaries in Heartgold (they didn't disappear from the game if they used roar in that gen) when I was 10 or 11 and thinking I was an evil genius that just had outsmarted the game. For me that move was among the best just for that fact alone. It was especially great because I could brag about my big brain strats to my friends at school and just feel like a badass as they expressed their amazement at my discovery lmao. Also, this is completely unrelated but the miltank "HP battery" you mentioned in the video was just hilarious to me for whatever reason.
Some pokemon will use Blunder Policy + Zap Cannon for the combo of raising their speed by +2 if they miss or just paralyzing their opponent if they land. Either way, they're going to outspeed their opponent in the next turn. Xurkitree and Porygon-Z can attempt to sweep with this combo in singles.
Ah yes, Blunder Policy. I tried running it with Hustle Dracozolt with Bolt Beak. It hit when I didn't want it to, and didn't hit when I needed it to hit. Blunder Policy is ass
Fun fact: It took me way too long to come to terms with the fact that in gen 2 Shadow Ball is a stronger go-to attack on Umbreon than bite or feint attack, especially when you get Curse involved
In the ultra hard romhack Crystal Kaizo I figured this out and it let Umbreon counter damn near every psychic and ghost type in the game, smacking their typically weaker defense stat and sometimes getting creamy stat drop hax
I found your gen 1 tier list video after seeing if i could remember every gen 1 move the day before. Throughout that 3ish hour video, i found myself loving your commentary and cheery attitude. You rock man! Subbed!
Return stands out the most to me, still one of the best normal moves to this day. I wish frustration was dark type though because who actually walks around with Pokemon who hate you?
Little side note with Beat Up. Dugtrio uses it on offensive teams in Gen 3 OU if you can guarantee the 2hko to blissey since with very amount of SpD (or none, i don't remember) you survive Ice Beam. It is still a niche move but it's a small detail you forgot to mention!
Frustration is actually a good choice over return for one exact reason: ditto. Since a ditto copying your mon will not copy its happiness and most ditto run max happiness for copied return, so running frustration frustrates Ditto slightly.
Aerodactyl used AncientPower in GSC because it had to use Hidden Power for Flying STAB. Horrifying. Also in an absurdly depressing turn of events, Kangaskhan sometimes used Attract in GSC because it's forced to be female while max DV Pokemon are forced to be male.
Notable use for future sight is breaking stall. You future sight, teleport into a wallbreaker, and with the combined force of both the future sight attack and the incoming hit you can bust down a lot of pokemon that would usually stop individual wallbreakers. Removing a key line of defense is often match winning against defensive strategies. Meta-defining in the context of stall heavy singles formats.
Doesn't work in gen 2. Teleport doesn't switch out the pokemon until gen 8 (And in let's go games). Also, pretty sure that it's used more in stall then against it.
@@josephhanicak7922 This tier list is evaluating the value of moves holistically across all generations. The moves being evaluated are those introduced in gen 2, but doesn't consider only their use in gen 2.
I once had someone gigabrain me by using scary face on their partner pokemon to outspeed me in a trick room set I was running But mostly I think the move is just for pokemon that want speed control but don't get thunder wave, or don't want to deal with the 90% accuracy of thunder wave. Pretty niche
Attract is such a great move. This move saved me so many times in Pokemon crystal Kaizo. 95% of the Pokemon you face are male. This works well in gen 2 where you can only have one status inflicted on a Pokemon. I used a female Kangiskhan with Attract, Toxic, body slam and Substitute. Sweeped everyone.
I had an Attract Delcatty in Snakewood, and I can confirm the majority of Pokemon were male there too. It was basically only female characters who had female Pokemon. It also got Beat Up in that game so King's Rock plus Beat Up plus Attract was able to cheese past a lot of bullshit.
Beat up actually has its uses in gen 8 ou. Both Weavile and Bisharp run it because it is the highest base power dark move in the game. It could also be used with kings rock shenanigans before kings rock got banned
If I remember correctly switching out have +7 priority and pursuit on a fleeing pokemon has +8. Fun fact: if used on a pokemon that have used u-turn it loses the priority but it still hit the pokemon trying to leave (I've lost my beedrill because of this)
A bit late to the party but I remember that a discovery happened in Gen 3 where switching can reset sleep counter. So now there is an Aerodactyl set in Genn3 that runs sleep talk without rest. It takes spores so nothing else has to sleep the rest of battle.
Remember when Teddiursa was among the most useful Pokémon in XY, not for its competitive battling prowess, but its utility in game? It had Sweet Scent to lure in the hordes, Bulldoze and Rock Slide to take them out, and the Pickup Ability to get any items. The hordes were a source of EVs.
Technically because most Pokémon are either 87.5% male 12.5 % female or standard 50/50, there’s a slightly higher chance your opponent is running male Pokémon (plus them lustful genie men) So if you’re going to run attract, female is the premier option. If you trap and then attract opponents (especially paralyzed ones) you can pull off some fun shenanigans. Good video! Updated to fix percent
Future Sight is actually a really legit competitive move on Teleport Pokémon in Gen 8, most notably Slowbro and Slowking as you said. Future Sight turn 1, Teleport turn 2, switch to a physical attacker whose switch-ins are more vulnerable to special and/or Psychic-type moves, and hit ‘em with a one-two punch on turn 3. Very effective
28:12 encore is actually one of the best moves in game depending on the game youre playing like, if youre doing a nuzlocke of a difficult rom hack, its a contender for the best move in the game
One thing I would give Vital throw is Brawly in gen 3. Having a 75 power always hit move that early on is brutal. In my water-type monotype run, he wrecked me so bad. I was not grinding at all and I had like 3 pokemon with me(mudkip, lotad, and azumarill) and none of them could stand up to his Makuhita for long. Absolute hell of a fight. Would recommend.
I guess I was just TOO GOOD at pokemon, I hear all this stuff about Brawly (people defend Sableye because of Brawly) and I don't think he's ever hit me once ever He should train harder.
@@ImportedCheese Lmao. I never once lost to Brawly before this and it was humiliating. For the record, it was JUST his Makuhita. It really goes to show how powerful Abra and Tailow are. Edit: I should mention your premium edits are getting better. IT really doesn't feel like you were streaming and you're probably the only youtuber I know who managed to make the conversions from stream -> video work so well! Keep it up!
Thank you! The Gen 5 PREMIUM edit probably left too much stuff in, so I've been very zealous with what I cut, to the point where now people are mad because I cut out important points! Whoops
I can't believe I didn't comment this at the time but Sleep Talk is occasionally used on Choice sets that are only using one move or so, or have a STAB move that's just way better than any coverage you could run. Especially if there are a lot of good sleepers or one big one like Darkrai in pre Gen 7 Ubers. Examples include choice Latis in Gen 5, Specs Vanilluxe with Blizzard, Freeze Dry, Sleep Talk and no fourth move. Similarly there's a Xerneas set with Power Herb and Geomancy, Moonblast, and Sleep Talk with no fourth move, since Sleep Talk can't call Geomancy.
Icy Wind is underrated AF. I always thought "weak" attacks with guaranteed speed drops are really neat, because they can be chained into a stronger move to do extra damage. It works best on mons with average speed (slow enough to benefit from it, but fast enough for it to matter). My Feraligatr could handle anything after that move. Slow down overleveled dragons to finish them off with Ice Beam, do a number on fast annoying psychics with Bite after Icy Wind, yadda yadda. I like Rock Tomb for similar reasons, although its accuracy can be shaky sometimes.
Ghost curse is useful ingame if you are fighting with higher leveled or bulky pokemon and your attacks cannot 1 hit ko and use curse and switch to stall.
Thief can also let you steal held items from the (very few) trainers that have held items, which can be moderately useful in some runs to get items you otherwise might not be able to.
@@ImportedCheese I don't know about any useful steals in Colosseum. I'm mostly remembering it from a HG challenge I'm working on, where I'll be stealing a Black Sludge from Koga (because I want as many pseudo-leftovers as I can get). Without stealing strats (I won't be using Thief specifically because it's a no-damaging-moves run) I can't get one until I get the nat dex. Also provides a repeatable source of actual leftovers in the 16 badge rematch, but idk if that's terribly useful when I'll have beaten everything but Red at that point.
@@ImportedCheese In HGSS, the only guaranteed way to get a Light Ball is stealing it from Red's Pikachu. You can also farm wild Pikachu for it, but that's a 5% chance of a held item on a Pokémon that's already super rare.
You can also get as many leftovers as you want by using thief on snorlax and then allowing it to cause you to white out. Take the item off and repeat. Give your money to mom to not lose it.
Bro encore is insane in-game. Even better than in competitive. If you can predict and lock the AI into defense curl or something you can easily set up for a sweep because they basically never switch
@@ImportedCheese Fair enough man. I always play with no over-leveling, no items in battle & what used to be called set mode. If you play that way, encore is at least A-tier 🤷🏻♂️
Yo just wanted to say great video! I've been feeling like absolute crap cause sickness and struggling to pass out but you just have this certain vibe that makes me feel good and also helps sleep. Idk, wacky scenario but I wanted to say keep up the good work!
Swagger is 100% meta defining over the course of its life span. You even mentioned it was banned, but it also was one of the strongest things pokemon with prankster could be doing in doubles. It got nerfed, and arguably was the reason for prankster and confusion nerfs. If you ever want to see true pain, watch Aaron Zheng's top four 2013 worlds match against Ryosuke Kosuge.. yikes.
Dude I know this video is a year old, but I’m so glad you made these PREMIUM edits, they’re gonna keep me entertained on a long flight, you rule Cheese
I have a feeling Ghost was made physical in Gen 1 because Psychic types (at least the ones in Gen 1) don’t tend to have good Defense, so it was intended to nuke the Psychic type. After all, they are only obtainable thanks Silph Co., which Team Rocket takes over, and the strongest Pokémon in the game (the one Team Rocket would be most interested in getting and that may be why they are in Cerulean to begin with) is Psychic type. But… they screwed up and glitched the typechart lmao
Rollout and Fury Cutter have a real niche in-game, since NPCs aren't very smart and you can set up a battle to start rolling out at first, weaker pokemon and absolutely demolish their ace in the back. Rollout has the advantages of type and being boosted by Defense Curl, Fury Cutter has the advantages of not locking you in and being able to continue for longer than 5 turns. Their accuracy murders their usefulness though, especially for pokes that don't have Hone Claws.
I used Sandstorm in the early days of Gen 8 on some stall teams. Ferrothorn normally runs spikes, however in the early gen 8 OU days people were way overusing Heavy Duty Boots. So, after rocks, I'd throw off a sandstorm to get chip on the 5 heavy duty boots mons to get that switch chip. It's not good now, but I mean, you asked if anyone ever had a use for sandstorm the move.
I remember Foresight being the reason people using Warturtle in NU back in Gen 5 and I think it was also a reason to use Rain Dish Blastoise over the significantly better the better Rain Dish Tentecruel in OU that generation. Also Ash used it against Ghost Types so Cyndiquil can hit them with that iconic Tackle attack. two generation after Giga Drain got buffed, Energy Ball became a 90 Base Power move. Probably because GF realized "Why is this just 80 Base Power?" Can you imagine Pinsir actually got that one evolution which is basically Heracross and Pinsir merged? Poor thing got cut and lost Megahorn in the process... It was that one moment it could have been a Pinsir Signatur move even for just 1 Generation.
About Attract: it works based on gender, and only in gen 2 gender is decided by attack dv:s (dw/16 < gender ratio = female), attack dw:s influence how much confusion damage is meaning special attacker want low attack dw:s while physical ones still need the power. All this means attract could be used by a female physical wall against all the male physical attackers. yup. meta defining move right there.
Snore Jirachi was a funny meme set I saw a TH-camr using. Spam Cosmic Power until you can use Stored Power, between Resting and flinch-fishing with Snore. Hilarious win condition.
Attract: 50% chance to lose your turn until you or your opponent switch out. Yes, if the Pokémon youre attracted to leaves the field, youre no longer attracted, so even worse than confusion in spite of gender and return damage limitations, your opponent is forced to stay in for that 50% chance to miss your turn.
Safeguard used to be meta defining before they changed it because it negated the downside of Outrage. It was the Fairy-level nerf to Outrage before Fairy-type came along.
Fun fact: There's actually a niche Aerodactyl set in Gen 3 that uses Sleep Talk without Rest. It uses only two moves: Sleep Talk and Whirlwind. It takes advantage of the fact that moves used with Sleep Talk _ignore_ negative priority, so it can just keep phazing the opponent and racking up hazard damage. Big Yellow did a video on obscure strategies where he talks about this set: th-cam.com/video/4qpfRdnBYOY/w-d-xo.html
There was literally a point as a kid (which obviously didn't last long) where I thought Faint Attack was some kind of One Hit KO move lol Like you can't have that spelling in a game where your Pokemon also faints.
Attract had a counter-meta gimmick niche in Gen 8. Beyond the genies starters like Incineroar and Rillaboom are 7/8 Male as is Urshifu. Since the best comp VGC are mostly male a female Attract user can hit most relevant threats. Ideally it forces a switch into a worse matchup or forces a big threat like Landorous to miss 50% of its powerful moves if your opponent is down to their last 2 Pokemon.
I bet at least half of the garbage tier moves would be universally viable for both casuals and veterans if the moves in question were given an in-battle and out of battle effect/ buffed, or given more accessibility alongside abilities that pokemon would benefit from; example we give shuckle fury cutter , you could use rest and toxic, but what if you wanted to shake things up a bit. What if frustration was BUFFED with the ways to increase happiness being more restricted so that you could play a more niche, yet unexpected playstyle. Thief could be a dark type acrobatics in effect and everything, but loses power if it either already has a held item or steals it form the opposing side. Zap cannon, inferno, and Dynamic punch with the third being an exception thanks to No guard machamp, more pokemon should have access to abilities like no guard or are similar, such as magnezone with zap cannon. Twister being dragon type hurricane, except it's buffed to either 50 or 60, and does double power in weather effects , making it deceptively wimpy, but with unused weather types like say hail or sandstorm it gives those effects and twister more versatility. Future sight is a really bad move on it's own: what if we made it a bargain sale psycho boost without the stat drop? multi hit moves such as triple kick could stay as it is, and be given to pokemon with technician, or make it a fighting type rollout: it starts with base power 60, has maybe 80 accuracy so it's not super busted as you immediately see it do 120, followed by 180. and lastly my last examples are steel wing and metal claw, i'm sure these were made for non steel types for type coverage, metal claw is a weaker meteor mash essentially. If we can have a move like power-up punch where it guarantees an attack boost, we make metal claw and steel wing a boost in buffing their respective stats. rock smash pretty much sucks except where it has a 50% chance to lower defence, so we make these moves increase to 50% chance. Low damage moves will only be really useful in tandem with special abilities or the pokemon themselves, if more moves were made versatile, theoretically powerful, it might give everyone a reason to use.
There's actually a multiple way to big brain Ninja hell. 1. Reclass Effie into Archer through Mozu Friendship and bait the Ninja to attack Effie over The wall. 2. Certain Blow Mozu can one shot those Ninja with Steel bow and Keaton Dual Strike. 3. Understand that you are making good decision by not turning man into a boots and reclass him into Bow Knight. 4. Basically have army of archer. Those Ninja are in shambles fighting the combination of Mozu, Effie and Boots man.
@@ImportedCheese I won't blame you for using Xander. The undisputed husband pick. I always pick female Corrin (in Conquest) and I always Mary Xander. He got that big Sword energy. I love him so much. Fun fact if you pair up Corrin with Xander the enemy won't attack you cause Corrin Personal skill make Xander take 0 damage. In hard mode and bellow difficulty. In Lunatic they can still hurt you for like 5 damage at most. I think in Tier list Xander is like S tier but like bottom of S tier because availability issue. But the fact that he trivialize mid to late is just insane. Top 5 Conquest char probably goes like this. 5. Xander 4. Silas 3. Corrin 2. Azura 1. Camilla
14:05 multi hit moves can be nice for set up strats to break through sash and sturdy edit: though obviously this one in particular is still outclassed by bonemerang lmao
spite is a move that saves you if you made a mistake. because sometimes you just can't come back from certain mistakes. If you are in game PvE and you have accidentally let a snorlax set up belly drum and you don't have any answer to it's bulk and it's set to sweep you, if you have a ghost type pokemon, you can spite away all of it's attacking moves rendering the belly drum worthless. This is an example, and this very rarely happens because most people who make that kind of mistake don't think about that level of strategy, or the player wouldn't make that mistake to begin with. still useless, but at least it is possible for it to have a use
Frustration has a pretty decent use in competitive: it counters Ditto. Ditto doesn’t copy friendship, so it’s Frustration will have, like, 2 base power.
I would not put Outrage in meta defining. Maybe for Gen 4-5 but after Fairy Types came, hardly anyone used Outrage in singles. In Ubers I don't think any Pokemon uses it except Zekrom... And with any Generation it got used less and less. Like Gen 7 only had maybe Zekrom use it and if you used a Z-Move.
35:17 I hate "Scrappy" as the name for "Can hit ghost types with normal and fighting moves". Way cooler name for the ability would have been "Exorcist".
The Japanese term translates to something like "ballsy", in the sense of not giving a damn and going for it no matter what They're not intimidated by the fact that they "can't harm" a ghost and slap it around regardless
A cool thing about Endure is that in a Double Battle, the AI will typically hit the mon with 1 HP, making it a fake Follow Me in really hard Pokemon fangames/ROMhacks
I miss being able to straight up solo some teams with my Comfey in Gen 7 RU. Sun boosted Z-Growth, Priority healing with Draining Kiss and Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Fire for steel types and the like.
Really cool list, the only thing I would think is Sleep Talk is a little low (it's better than Mirror Coat, surely?!). Admittedly, I'm biased as I've always had a soft spot for Crocune-like sets. There was also the point that Sleep was once so prevalent, I think some Choice Banders (mainly Heracross) ran Sleep Talk without Rest just to act as a sleep absorber.
There was the giga cheese sleep talk and whirlwind crobat set! Completely useless if you weren't asleep, but if you switched into a sleep move, you could spam whirlwind for entry hazard damage!
Why are signature moves so often just filler moves? Razor shell? just use aqua tail. Octozooka? just use surf or hydro pump. Ceaseless edge? just use night slash.
Interesting. I always thought weather was a gen 3 introduction but it seems like it was just more refined. Similar to how Terrain was in gen 6 but nobody used it until Sun & Moon.
"You can literally have a moveset of water HMs, it's the 8 year old moveset special" *glances at his Swampert from when he was literally 8, having all the water HMs from Hoenn... And also Rock Smash* I feel called out.
random comments on videos say that pursuit was cut from gen 8 because it was too good against psychic and ghosts and made them less useful. I feel like that's kind of faulty logic. cutting a move because it might be a problem for some critters when stuff like stealth rock exists. and some dark types lose viability for not having access to pursuit. idk. giga drain was actually meta defining in my own personal meta of what pokemon and moves are good in casual game teams because grass is my favorite type and giga drain is a cool sounding move that heals hp while damaging. it's the kind of move I'll always use if I have the chance, even before gen 4/5 when it got all the buffs :)
Love your content. I started watching you a few days ago and have been binging your pokemon tier lists. Also *Loves Meganium* you speak the truth about my favorite dino flower. I wish there was a way to buff it.
Thank you! I remember you commenting on the pace of the Gen 5 ingame list dragging, so I hope these more aggressive edits are on par with the lists I made on my own!
i actually disagree on future sight here. on defensive psychic types FS is good because it punishes pivots, and defensive players in competitive pkmn gain turn advantage by forcing switches. pair future sight with teleport and you have a mon that simultaneously punishes your opponents pivots while allowing your own mons to switch safely. it only got good after the bp buff to 120 but since then its a powerful tool with not the best distribution
pursuit also got cut because it caused logic bugs in the code in every generation. every time they patched the move it just created new bugs, for 5 gens in a row
35:00 huh, for some reason I always lumped up Foresight and Odor Sleuth with Mind Reader and Lock-On as "make next move bypass accuracy" moves. TIL they're actually even more crap, since the latter at least have a niche use of hitting OHKOs and the like.
funny thing about foresight is that hitmontop used it in gen 4 UU for rapid spinning, he was that good at clearing hazards that some people would run 2 ghosts to keep him from doing it... Not enough to move tiers but I thought you should know this.
fun fact about the shop keeper in Links Awakening, he will empty ALL 16 heart containers AND go through the full health potion, meaning he does 32 hearts of damage, THAT WE KNOW OF!!! Strongest attack in zelda history and its a f**king DREAM!
Not going to argue that Beat Up isn't niche, but it's worth noting that the "Beat Up on your own Justified sweeper" strat was a lot more viable in Sword/Shield since with Dynamax you could get a +4 boost while taking negligible damage.
I've convinced myself that Perish Song rivals Roar when it comes to Baton Pass. My reasoning is that you pass your perish counter along with the stat boosts, including to Soundproof Pokemon, along with the fact that it isn't -6 priority, meaning you can't get bamboozled by your opponent Baton Passing to a Soundproof Pokemon
Oh, Safeguard was used on Volcarona in Gen 8 to guard against toxic and paralysis stopping its sweep. I’ve also seen someone use it on Mega Altaria I think?
So, I have a comment that hasn't been touched on yet...Perish Song is too low, and Mean Look might be too low as well. I can understand trying to forget such things as Gen 2's terrible meta and early Gen 6 with Genesect and Mega Kangaskhan, but Mean Look was absolutely a staple in the former, and I'd call Perish Song Meta Defining in both. Hell, Perish Song was even viable in Gen 6 UBERS once Mega Gengar got sent there. As is, the only other moves in the niche tier that have ever been meta threats are: Beat Up, which has never been anything but a niche pick with easy counterplay, Future Sight, which has been touched on already and "only" has Gen 8 post Slowtwins introduction as a meta threat, and the lower tiers of Gen 3 with Reversal and Flail Salac Berry Substitute sets. I'd put Perish Song at least at the top of niche with the possible exception of Future Sight. (also, can't wait for Cheese to discuss entry hazards and have a very sad Charizard puppy when we get to Gen 4.) Edit: Also, for a niche comment, there WERE actual sets in Ubers that had Sleep Talk and not Rest! Ubers in Gen 4-6, usually Kyogre, had it because Darkrai was very common and Dark Void used to be very accurate (please revert the accuracy nerf gamefreak why did you massacre it so badly while also making Smeargle unable to use it), and you didn't really need more than 3 moves for Kyogre anyways, you could get by with Thunder, Ice Beam, and whatever your water move of choice was.
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SHOULD FUTURE SIGHT BE HIGHER AND FRUSTRATION BE USED TO COUNTER DITTO?!
SCROLL DOWN TO FIND OUT
Yes but pls still comment, I need the engagement, thank you for watching.
Chat argued for Future Sight to be higher AND someone mentioned Frusration countering ditto, I cut all of that! TOO PREMIUM!
It's all a big cheespiracy. You've been putting 1 to 2 moves in the wrong tier on purpose so we'll comment on it all this time! Wake up mareeple!
8 month later comment for engagement
There is one game where Attract is one of the best moves available: Pokémon Red/Blue Rescue Team. That game doesn’t have genders, so Attract always works. Oh, and the odds of being unable to move were increased from 50% to *100%*. It does wear off now… after enough turns to kill any non-boss… and most bosses. Since Attract is a near universal TM, there’s basically no reason not to run it.
Tfw Skitty is unironically the best starter pick
Spinoff tier list?!
@@ImportedCheese yes you dairy dummy, do a playthrough of rescue team sky
@@ImportedCheese ABSOLUTELY
@@ImportedCheese spinoff game tier list?! pikachuu genki dechuu s tier game?
frustration actually has somewhat of a niche on pokemon showdown if you end up fighting a ditto.
say you're a normal type sweeper, you set up swords dance and are prepared to sweep a weakened enemy team with return.
choice scarf imposter ditto can cut you short, it'll copy your boost and uno reverse card you with its own return sweep.
HOWEVER if you run 0 friendship and frustration, the default friendship on showdown is the max 255, so the enemy ditto is very likely to be max friendship, preventing an enemy ditto from doing any damage via frustration. and because frustration is the exact same move as return, you effectively lose nothing in the vaccum of a simulator where you can always have a max power frustration.
i actually lost because i didnt know this once, and tried clicking frustration on my ditto.
Sounds... FRUSTRATING AHAHAHA
Someone did actually mentioned frustration wrecking ditto, but it got cut from the premium.
...Probably should have left it in.
@@ImportedCheese appreciate the pun, it was honestly more funny than frustrating though haha. one of those things where i was like "why did my stab frustration only do like 3%?
....oh my god."
I think your filler tier is a very good idea. There are lots of pokemon moves that are learnt in the early game and they're meant for the early game. Or need to be used by pokemon with limited movepools. It's a very good tier list I think.
Thank you! Let's! Filling!
Fun fact, Rivalry, a normally useless ability, was actually used in Worlds at VGC on Haxerous specifically to kill the Genies. The guy using it only lost to Ray Rizzo, so it was obviously pretty damn good.
Is rivalry useless? It's inconsistent but at least it gives a pretty nice passive boost
@@ImportedCheese The problem is that just like it gives you a 1.25x attack power against the same gender, you get 0.75x against the opposite gender
Ray Rizzo actually knew the Haxorus had Rivalry, because his opponent had made it so far through Worlds, so he changed the gender of his non-genie pokemon to be female, so the Haxorus was basically stuck with -30% damage, and thats how Ray Rizzo won.
@@loudwhispre9406 More or less. I wouldn't say it was how he won, but it definitely helped. The Genies were the main target, so even just taking them out is worth the team slot by itself. They were broken as hell lol.
Uh it looks like I accidentally used Belly Drum twice so I guess I'm dead now rip
Baton Pass even works with no-boost fast Pokemon. It allows faster Pokemon to switch after the opponent switches because it's a move, not a switch.
It sounds pretty niche, but if you have baton pass you basically always push it instead of switching.
Banned!
It's funny you talked about mean look and spider web in the more competitive context because I remember figuring out I can use my Crobat to mean look the roaming legendaries in Heartgold (they didn't disappear from the game if they used roar in that gen) when I was 10 or 11 and thinking I was an evil genius that just had outsmarted the game. For me that move was among the best just for that fact alone. It was especially great because I could brag about my big brain strats to my friends at school and just feel like a badass as they expressed their amazement at my discovery lmao.
Also, this is completely unrelated but the miltank "HP battery" you mentioned in the video was just hilarious to me for whatever reason.
Pokemon and schoolyard bragging, name a more iconic combo?!
That future sight at the beginning actually did give me psychic damage as a Fire Emblem fan
At least conquest has good gameplay............!
Some pokemon will use Blunder Policy + Zap Cannon for the combo of raising their speed by +2 if they miss or just paralyzing their opponent if they land. Either way, they're going to outspeed their opponent in the next turn. Xurkitree and Porygon-Z can attempt to sweep with this combo in singles.
Ah yes, Blunder Policy. I tried running it with Hustle Dracozolt with Bolt Beak. It hit when I didn't want it to, and didn't hit when I needed it to hit. Blunder Policy is ass
Fun fact: It took me way too long to come to terms with the fact that in gen 2 Shadow Ball is a stronger go-to attack on Umbreon than bite or feint attack, especially when you get Curse involved
In the ultra hard romhack Crystal Kaizo I figured this out and it let Umbreon counter damn near every psychic and ghost type in the game, smacking their typically weaker defense stat and sometimes getting creamy stat drop hax
@@maxwellbrown4049 plus the fact Umbreon has better attack than special attack
Pokemon Colosseum moment?!
...What else are you gonna use in that game, guess I'll attack with Umbreon...
@@ImportedCheese Stadium 2 moment, actually.
It was great for Flareon before it became special.
Can I just say I absolutely love this channel so much and it’s so criminally underrated for the amount of effort you put in the videos
Thank you! Susan will acknowledge us someday, maybe now that we've banished livestreams to a different channel
I found your gen 1 tier list video after seeing if i could remember every gen 1 move the day before. Throughout that 3ish hour video, i found myself loving your commentary and cheery attitude. You rock man! Subbed!
Thank you! Let's! Encore!
I always left the sacred ash on my Ho-Oh's because I thought it boosted the power of sacred fire. If only.
If Sacred Ash were like Soul Dew it would defs be banned
@@ImportedCheese But Ho-oh is already banned...
Return stands out the most to me, still one of the best normal moves to this day. I wish frustration was dark type though because who actually walks around with Pokemon who hate you?
Why did they remove it
are there any Pokémon with abilities like Pixilate that can learn it? getting STAB and type bonus on it would be devastating.
@@TheAuron32 Mega Pinsir and Mega Salamence used it to rip through everything
Little side note with Beat Up. Dugtrio uses it on offensive teams in Gen 3 OU if you can guarantee the 2hko to blissey since with very amount of SpD (or none, i don't remember) you survive Ice Beam. It is still a niche move but it's a small detail you forgot to mention!
Beating up a trapped opponent...no honor!
As a diehard Gen 2 fanboy, I sincerely appreciated the BellyZard shoutout.
I'm a charizard shill
Frustration is actually a good choice over return for one exact reason: ditto. Since a ditto copying your mon will not copy its happiness and most ditto run max happiness for copied return, so running frustration frustrates Ditto slightly.
True pokemon showdown tech!
...Bring back return
Aerodactyl used AncientPower in GSC because it had to use Hidden Power for Flying STAB. Horrifying.
Also in an absurdly depressing turn of events, Kangaskhan sometimes used Attract in GSC because it's forced to be female while max DV Pokemon are forced to be male.
At least Charizard had a real flying STAB, right?!
Notable use for future sight is breaking stall. You future sight, teleport into a wallbreaker, and with the combined force of both the future sight attack and the incoming hit you can bust down a lot of pokemon that would usually stop individual wallbreakers. Removing a key line of defense is often match winning against defensive strategies. Meta-defining in the context of stall heavy singles formats.
Doesn't work in gen 2. Teleport doesn't switch out the pokemon until gen 8 (And in let's go games). Also, pretty sure that it's used more in stall then against it.
@@josephhanicak7922 This tier list is evaluating the value of moves holistically across all generations. The moves being evaluated are those introduced in gen 2, but doesn't consider only their use in gen 2.
@@JFarenci I hadn't watched very far into the video lol. I missed the part where he explains that.
It's at the beginning!
@@ImportedCheese Sure, but an audience that's already commenting before even the 1st minute must be good for the algorithm right?!
I once had someone gigabrain me by using scary face on their partner pokemon to outspeed me in a trick room set I was running
But mostly I think the move is just for pokemon that want speed control but don't get thunder wave, or don't want to deal with the 90% accuracy of thunder wave. Pretty niche
Is that gigabrain?! Or just a waste of a turn
@@ImportedCheese it won them the game lol
Attract is such a great move. This move saved me so many times in Pokemon crystal Kaizo.
95% of the Pokemon you face are male. This works well in gen 2 where you can only have one status inflicted on a Pokemon.
I used a female Kangiskhan with Attract, Toxic, body slam and Substitute. Sweeped everyone.
maybe it's ok in hacks, but in all mainline games it's sad
I had an Attract Delcatty in Snakewood, and I can confirm the majority of Pokemon were male there too. It was basically only female characters who had female Pokemon.
It also got Beat Up in that game so King's Rock plus Beat Up plus Attract was able to cheese past a lot of bullshit.
Beat up actually has its uses in gen 8 ou. Both Weavile and Bisharp run it because it is the highest base power dark move in the game. It could also be used with kings rock shenanigans before kings rock got banned
Knock off tho?!
If I remember correctly switching out have +7 priority and pursuit on a fleeing pokemon has +8. Fun fact: if used on a pokemon that have used u-turn it loses the priority but it still hit the pokemon trying to leave (I've lost my beedrill because of this)
That is a fun fact!
Not for beedrill, I guess
A bit late to the party but I remember that a discovery happened in Gen 3 where switching can reset sleep counter. So now there is an Aerodactyl set in Genn3 that runs sleep talk without rest. It takes spores so nothing else has to sleep the rest of battle.
sleep talk whirlwind crobat!!
Remember when Teddiursa was among the most useful Pokémon in XY, not for its competitive battling prowess, but its utility in game? It had Sweet Scent to lure in the hordes, Bulldoze and Rock Slide to take them out, and the Pickup Ability to get any items. The hordes were a source of EVs.
I...do not remember this
Ursaluna has great stats tho!
Technically because most Pokémon are either 87.5% male 12.5 % female or standard 50/50, there’s a slightly higher chance your opponent is running male Pokémon (plus them lustful genie men)
So if you’re going to run attract, female is the premier option. If you trap and then attract opponents (especially paralyzed ones) you can pull off some fun shenanigans.
Good video!
Updated to fix percent
Still bad move! But...less bad?
Future Sight is actually a really legit competitive move on Teleport Pokémon in Gen 8, most notably Slowbro and Slowking as you said. Future Sight turn 1, Teleport turn 2, switch to a physical attacker whose switch-ins are more vulnerable to special and/or Psychic-type moves, and hit ‘em with a one-two punch on turn 3. Very effective
TWO previously useless buffed moves?! Truly in the spirit of S L O W
28:12 encore is actually one of the best moves in game depending on the game youre playing
like, if youre doing a nuzlocke of a difficult rom hack, its a contender for the best move in the game
I usually don't consider nuzlockes
One thing I would give Vital throw is Brawly in gen 3. Having a 75 power always hit move that early on is brutal. In my water-type monotype run, he wrecked me so bad. I was not grinding at all and I had like 3 pokemon with me(mudkip, lotad, and azumarill) and none of them could stand up to his Makuhita for long. Absolute hell of a fight. Would recommend.
I guess I was just TOO GOOD at pokemon, I hear all this stuff about Brawly (people defend Sableye because of Brawly) and I don't think he's ever hit me once ever
He should train harder.
@@ImportedCheese Lmao. I never once lost to Brawly before this and it was humiliating. For the record, it was JUST his Makuhita. It really goes to show how powerful Abra and Tailow are.
Edit: I should mention your premium edits are getting better. IT really doesn't feel like you were streaming and you're probably the only youtuber I know who managed to make the conversions from stream -> video work so well! Keep it up!
Thank you! The Gen 5 PREMIUM edit probably left too much stuff in, so I've been very zealous with what I cut, to the point where now people are mad because I cut out important points! Whoops
@@ImportedCheese F. I think it's a learning process. And I'm glad you're taking the time to try out new ways of cutting!
I can't believe I didn't comment this at the time but Sleep Talk is occasionally used on Choice sets that are only using one move or so, or have a STAB move that's just way better than any coverage you could run. Especially if there are a lot of good sleepers or one big one like Darkrai in pre Gen 7 Ubers.
Examples include choice Latis in Gen 5, Specs Vanilluxe with Blizzard, Freeze Dry, Sleep Talk and no fourth move.
Similarly there's a Xerneas set with Power Herb and Geomancy, Moonblast, and Sleep Talk with no fourth move, since Sleep Talk can't call Geomancy.
sleep talk whirlwind crobat
Icy Wind is underrated AF. I always thought "weak" attacks with guaranteed speed drops are really neat, because they can be chained into a stronger move to do extra damage. It works best on mons with average speed (slow enough to benefit from it, but fast enough for it to matter). My Feraligatr could handle anything after that move. Slow down overleveled dragons to finish them off with Ice Beam, do a number on fast annoying psychics with Bite after Icy Wind, yadda yadda. I like Rock Tomb for similar reasons, although its accuracy can be shaky sometimes.
Good in doubles I guess
Ghost curse is useful ingame if you are fighting with higher leveled or bulky pokemon and your attacks cannot 1 hit ko and use curse and switch to stall.
Seems like a lot of work, but I could see it
I was surprised you and the chat didn't talk about lite ability when talking about return. Mega Salamence love that aerilite Return.
Or frustration, in fact preferably frustration because of Ditto exists
It should have been mentioned!
Return still great tho
So glad someone else immediately thinks of Dire when Cross Chop comes up
YOU FELL FOR IT!!!
Thief can also let you steal held items from the (very few) trainers that have held items, which can be moderately useful in some runs to get items you otherwise might not be able to.
Really?! I didn't know you could actually steal from trainers.
Pokemon Colloseum?!
@@ImportedCheese I don't know about any useful steals in Colosseum. I'm mostly remembering it from a HG challenge I'm working on, where I'll be stealing a Black Sludge from Koga (because I want as many pseudo-leftovers as I can get). Without stealing strats (I won't be using Thief specifically because it's a no-damaging-moves run) I can't get one until I get the nat dex. Also provides a repeatable source of actual leftovers in the 16 badge rematch, but idk if that's terribly useful when I'll have beaten everything but Red at that point.
@@ImportedCheese In HGSS, the only guaranteed way to get a Light Ball is stealing it from Red's Pikachu. You can also farm wild Pikachu for it, but that's a 5% chance of a held item on a Pokémon that's already super rare.
You can also get as many leftovers as you want by using thief on snorlax and then allowing it to cause you to white out. Take the item off and repeat. Give your money to mom to not lose it.
Bro encore is insane in-game. Even better than in competitive. If you can predict and lock the AI into defense curl or something you can easily set up for a sweep because they basically never switch
it's useless bro, enemies are so weak you don't need to setup, just click strong moves lol
@@ImportedCheese Fair enough man. I always play with no over-leveling, no items in battle & what used to be called set mode. If you play that way, encore is at least A-tier 🤷🏻♂️
Yo just wanted to say great video! I've been feeling like absolute crap cause sickness and struggling to pass out but you just have this certain vibe that makes me feel good and also helps sleep. Idk, wacky scenario but I wanted to say keep up the good work!
Thank you! These videos are for B A C K G R O U N D vibes.
Get well soon!
I'm actually really glad you shouted out FalseSwipeGaming, they're a great channel
They're also charizard fans!
Swagger is 100% meta defining over the course of its life span. You even mentioned it was banned, but it also was one of the strongest things pokemon with prankster could be doing in doubles. It got nerfed, and arguably was the reason for prankster and confusion nerfs. If you ever want to see true pain, watch Aaron Zheng's top four 2013 worlds match against Ryosuke Kosuge.. yikes.
Such skill, much outplayed
Gamefreak pls.
Swagger got banned from UBERS in Gen 6.
Dude I know this video is a year old, but I’m so glad you made these PREMIUM edits, they’re gonna keep me entertained on a long flight, you rule Cheese
There's many more PREMIUMS, you gotta watch them all
To add to safeguard: sometimes Volcarona in gen 8 runs safeguard on its sweeping sets so it can beat defensive Pokémon
I have a feeling Ghost was made physical in Gen 1 because Psychic types (at least the ones in Gen 1) don’t tend to have good Defense, so it was intended to nuke the Psychic type. After all, they are only obtainable thanks Silph Co., which Team Rocket takes over, and the strongest Pokémon in the game (the one Team Rocket would be most interested in getting and that may be why they are in Cerulean to begin with) is Psychic type. But… they screwed up and glitched the typechart lmao
At least ghost nowadays is ridiculous
Rollout and Fury Cutter have a real niche in-game, since NPCs aren't very smart and you can set up a battle to start rolling out at first, weaker pokemon and absolutely demolish their ace in the back. Rollout has the advantages of type and being boosted by Defense Curl, Fury Cutter has the advantages of not locking you in and being able to continue for longer than 5 turns.
Their accuracy murders their usefulness though, especially for pokes that don't have Hone Claws.
That's uh....something
Outrage tends to be set up fodder after fairy types were introduced
It would be if Outrage continued against immune opponents, but you can still switch
I'm sure people mentioned the regional winning gmax Charizard with charti berry and ancient power.....so technically ap would be niche I suppose
Someone did mention it!! Not in as much detail, but they said "Charizard uses it"
20:20 i always thought curse makeing u slower was a reference to the power of the curse mark being too heavy.
Too poetic
I used Sandstorm in the early days of Gen 8 on some stall teams. Ferrothorn normally runs spikes, however in the early gen 8 OU days people were way overusing Heavy Duty Boots. So, after rocks, I'd throw off a sandstorm to get chip on the 5 heavy duty boots mons to get that switch chip.
It's not good now, but I mean, you asked if anyone ever had a use for sandstorm the move.
They should interview you!
"World's First Sandstorm User Tells All"
@@ImportedCheese "uh yeah, it worked pretty good for a few days, then I remembered Tyranitar existed"
I was there for the Livestream but looking forward to this PREMIUM EDIT
I hope it was worth it!
@@ImportedCheese always is
I remember Foresight being the reason people using Warturtle in NU back in Gen 5 and I think it was also a reason to use Rain Dish Blastoise over the significantly better the better Rain Dish Tentecruel in OU that generation.
Also Ash used it against Ghost Types so Cyndiquil can hit them with that iconic Tackle attack.
two generation after Giga Drain got buffed, Energy Ball became a 90 Base Power move. Probably because GF realized "Why is this just 80 Base Power?"
Can you imagine Pinsir actually got that one evolution which is basically Heracross and Pinsir merged? Poor thing got cut and lost Megahorn in the process... It was that one moment it could have been a Pinsir Signatur move even for just 1 Generation.
Imagine dying to a foresigh cyndaquil tackle lmaooo
foresight has also been used by hitmontop in several gen iirc, so it could always get the spin against ghosts.
About Attract: it works based on gender, and only in gen 2 gender is decided by attack dv:s (dw/16 < gender ratio = female), attack dw:s influence how much confusion damage is meaning special attacker want low attack dw:s while physical ones still need the power. All this means attract could be used by a female physical wall against all the male physical attackers. yup. meta defining move right there.
Outdated mechanic!!
Re: Frustration
Ghetsis' Hydreigon has a max power Frustration to further indicate that he really is a monster
What kind of monster runs a physical (non coverage) move on Hydregon?!
@@ImportedCheese insult to injury!
Snore Jirachi was a funny meme set I saw a TH-camr using. Spam Cosmic Power until you can use Stored Power, between Resting and flinch-fishing with Snore. Hilarious win condition.
That does sound hilarious lol
Not very good, but very funny
Attract: 50% chance to lose your turn until you or your opponent switch out. Yes, if the Pokémon youre attracted to leaves the field, youre no longer attracted, so even worse than confusion in spite of gender and return damage limitations, your opponent is forced to stay in for that 50% chance to miss your turn.
Trash!
I love how he says "can someone suggest a clip for the premium edit" and then chooses the suggestion that was clearly the exact clip he was quoting
I am very smart
There is one niche sandstorm user, FEAR aron, which uses sandstorm and endeavour with berry juice as a lvl 1 mon to get a ko, its very gimmicky
Imagine using berry juice instead of SHELL BELL!
Safeguard used to be meta defining before they changed it because it negated the downside of Outrage. It was the Fairy-level nerf to Outrage before Fairy-type came along.
I've...never heard of this, doesn't seem nearly worth it to me
Fun fact: There's actually a niche Aerodactyl set in Gen 3 that uses Sleep Talk without Rest. It uses only two moves: Sleep Talk and Whirlwind. It takes advantage of the fact that moves used with Sleep Talk _ignore_ negative priority, so it can just keep phazing the opponent and racking up hazard damage. Big Yellow did a video on obscure strategies where he talks about this set: th-cam.com/video/4qpfRdnBYOY/w-d-xo.html
virgin aerodactyl vs chad crobat
@@ImportedCheese I only just now noticed they have the same base speed, so yeah, Crobat would also work.
There was literally a point as a kid (which obviously didn't last long) where I thought Faint Attack was some kind of One Hit KO move lol
Like you can't have that spelling in a game where your Pokemon also faints.
Good thing they changed it, only took them...a decade?
Attract had a counter-meta gimmick niche in Gen 8. Beyond the genies starters like Incineroar and Rillaboom are 7/8 Male as is Urshifu. Since the best comp VGC are mostly male a female Attract user can hit most relevant threats.
Ideally it forces a switch into a worse matchup or forces a big threat like Landorous to miss 50% of its powerful moves if your opponent is down to their last 2 Pokemon.
Sounds....really specific
@@ImportedCheese I’m a sucker for weird specific strats. Like Quagsire checking Zacian or Weezing + Regigigas to cancel Slow Start.
I bet at least half of the garbage tier moves would be universally viable for both casuals and veterans if the moves in question were given an in-battle and out of battle effect/ buffed, or given more accessibility alongside abilities that pokemon would benefit from; example we give shuckle fury cutter , you could use rest and toxic, but what if you wanted to shake things up a bit.
What if frustration was BUFFED with the ways to increase happiness being more restricted so that you could play a more niche, yet unexpected playstyle. Thief could be a dark type acrobatics in effect and everything, but loses power if it either already has a held item or steals it form the opposing side. Zap cannon, inferno, and Dynamic punch with the third being an exception thanks to No guard machamp, more pokemon should have access to abilities like no guard or are similar, such as magnezone with zap cannon.
Twister being dragon type hurricane, except it's buffed to either 50 or 60, and does double power in weather effects , making it deceptively wimpy, but with unused weather types like say hail or sandstorm it gives those effects and twister more versatility.
Future sight is a really bad move on it's own: what if we made it a bargain sale psycho boost without the stat drop? multi hit moves such as triple kick could stay as it is, and be given to pokemon with technician, or make it a fighting type rollout: it starts with base power 60, has maybe 80 accuracy so it's not super busted as you immediately see it do 120, followed by 180.
and lastly my last examples are steel wing and metal claw, i'm sure these were made for non steel types for type coverage, metal claw is a weaker meteor mash essentially. If we can have a move like power-up punch where it guarantees an attack boost, we make metal claw and steel wing a boost in buffing their respective stats. rock smash pretty much sucks except where it has a 50% chance to lower defence, so we make these moves increase to 50% chance.
Low damage moves will only be really useful in tandem with special abilities or the pokemon themselves, if more moves were made versatile, theoretically powerful, it might give everyone a reason to use.
There's actually a multiple way to big brain Ninja hell.
1. Reclass Effie into Archer through Mozu Friendship and bait the Ninja to attack Effie over The wall.
2. Certain Blow Mozu can one shot those Ninja with Steel bow and Keaton Dual Strike.
3. Understand that you are making good decision by not turning man into a boots and reclass him into Bow Knight.
4. Basically have army of archer. Those Ninja are in shambles fighting the combination of Mozu, Effie and Boots man.
But...Xander goes brrrr
And I played in Japanese where Xander is named Marx! Gotta use Marx!
@@ImportedCheese I won't blame you for using Xander. The undisputed husband pick. I always pick female Corrin (in Conquest) and I always Mary Xander. He got that big Sword energy. I love him so much. Fun fact if you pair up Corrin with Xander the enemy won't attack you cause Corrin Personal skill make Xander take 0 damage. In hard mode and bellow difficulty. In Lunatic they can still hurt you for like 5 damage at most. I think in Tier list Xander is like S tier but like bottom of S tier because availability issue. But the fact that he trivialize mid to late is just insane. Top 5 Conquest char probably goes like this.
5. Xander
4. Silas
3. Corrin
2. Azura
1. Camilla
Beat up king rock weavile is actually pretty good. I think that'd be enough to bump it to at least filler tbh
14:05 multi hit moves can be nice for set up strats to break through sash and sturdy
edit: though obviously this one in particular is still outclassed by bonemerang lmao
Only really for skill link users tho
spite is a move that saves you if you made a mistake. because sometimes you just can't come back from certain mistakes. If you are in game PvE and you have accidentally let a snorlax set up belly drum and you don't have any answer to it's bulk and it's set to sweep you, if you have a ghost type pokemon, you can spite away all of it's attacking moves rendering the belly drum worthless. This is an example, and this very rarely happens because most people who make that kind of mistake don't think about that level of strategy, or the player wouldn't make that mistake to begin with.
still useless, but at least it is possible for it to have a use
Pretty sure that Lugia's main set in gen 2 Ubers is curse, and that it does use Aeroblast.
Luigi is a mario character
Beat up is also commonly used in gen 3 to beat Blissey with pokemon like Dugtrio or Charizard.
That was an amazing night for me. Sushi with friends and Cheese post dinner!
Thank you for always keeping the bots at bay
@@ImportedCheese it's a honor to serve under daimyo Cheese o7
Frustration has a pretty decent use in competitive: it counters Ditto. Ditto doesn’t copy friendship, so it’s Frustration will have, like, 2 base power.
Yeah, not sure if it missed the edit but I was surprised this didn't get mentioned
It was cut in the edit, someone did mention it
Lotsa frustrated commenters, all according to keikaku?!
@@ImportedCheese one of the 5head moves of all time
i literally had no idea future sight did damage until now because i never saw any pokemon using it live to do damage lol
Don't tell the other commenters! They'll come after you!
@@ImportedCheese they wouldnt do that, youtube comments are generally rational people
Scyther with Technician running Fury Cutter is deadly. I’ve swept many teams with it.
but it's still a bug move
I would not put Outrage in meta defining. Maybe for Gen 4-5 but after Fairy Types came, hardly anyone used Outrage in singles. In Ubers I don't think any Pokemon uses it except Zekrom... And with any Generation it got used less and less. Like Gen 7 only had maybe Zekrom use it and if you used a Z-Move.
Naw Outrage is definitely meta defining, they had to add a whole type just to try and stop it
Sweet Scent can actually be used on Contrary mons to bypass Evasion Clause.
HUGE strats?!
...Sounds like you could do better things with Contrary lol
35:17
I hate "Scrappy" as the name for "Can hit ghost types with normal and fighting moves". Way cooler name for the ability would have been "Exorcist".
The Japanese term translates to something like "ballsy", in the sense of not giving a damn and going for it no matter what
They're not intimidated by the fact that they "can't harm" a ghost and slap it around regardless
I always thought it was a reference to scrappy doo always wanting to fight ghosts
A cool thing about Endure is that in a Double Battle, the AI will typically hit the mon with 1 HP, making it a fake Follow Me in really hard Pokemon fangames/ROMhacks
AI cheese strats?!
@@ImportedCheese Yup! I believe Pokemon Challenges abused this at some point in Emerald Kaizo.
Future sight definitively didn't see that coming.
I didn't either, the full argument with chat was several minutes long
I miss being able to straight up solo some teams with my Comfey in Gen 7 RU.
Sun boosted Z-Growth, Priority healing with Draining Kiss and Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Fire for steel types and the like.
RIP hidden power
Really cool list, the only thing I would think is Sleep Talk is a little low (it's better than Mirror Coat, surely?!). Admittedly, I'm biased as I've always had a soft spot for Crocune-like sets. There was also the point that Sleep was once so prevalent, I think some Choice Banders (mainly Heracross) ran Sleep Talk without Rest just to act as a sleep absorber.
There was the giga cheese sleep talk and whirlwind crobat set! Completely useless if you weren't asleep, but if you switched into a sleep move, you could spam whirlwind for entry hazard damage!
Why are signature moves so often just filler moves? Razor shell? just use aqua tail. Octozooka? just use surf or hydro pump. Ceaseless edge? just use night slash.
Some are really good! Sacred Fire?! Aura Wheel?!
@@ImportedCheese Water shuriken
Speaking of hard fangames, Technician Fury Cutter on Kricketune is how you get past the first gym of Pokemon Reborn really easily.
Kricketune was also usable in DaiPa remake!
Early bug buzz?!
Interesting. I always thought weather was a gen 3 introduction but it seems like it was just more refined. Similar to how Terrain was in gen 6 but nobody used it until Sun & Moon.
"You can literally have a moveset of water HMs, it's the 8 year old moveset special" *glances at his Swampert from when he was literally 8, having all the water HMs from Hoenn... And also Rock Smash*
I feel called out.
I did it too, man.
Mine had either ice beam or earthquake in place of rock smash but 8 year old me also squirmed
random comments on videos say that pursuit was cut from gen 8 because it was too good against psychic and ghosts and made them less useful. I feel like that's kind of faulty logic. cutting a move because it might be a problem for some critters when stuff like stealth rock exists. and some dark types lose viability for not having access to pursuit. idk.
giga drain was actually meta defining in my own personal meta of what pokemon and moves are good in casual game teams because grass is my favorite type and giga drain is a cool sounding move that heals hp while damaging. it's the kind of move I'll always use if I have the chance, even before gen 4/5 when it got all the buffs :)
I think it might actually have been cut because of programming issues, since it's the only move that acts AS an opponent switches
Love your content. I started watching you a few days ago and have been binging your pokemon tier lists. Also *Loves Meganium* you speak the truth about my favorite dino flower. I wish there was a way to buff it.
Thank you! what was the first video you saw?
fairy typing pls
@@ImportedCheese The best rentals for Pokemon Stadium 2. Also yes pls fairy is good very good
Attract is only for when AFTER your Miltank's Body Slam procs Paralysis and BEFORE you start spamming Stomp
Sounds like a GIMMICK
Very nice premium edit! Can't wait for the gen 3 edition
Thank you! I remember you commenting on the pace of the Gen 5 ingame list dragging, so I hope these more aggressive edits are on par with the lists I made on my own!
1:32:22 Dratini line in gen3 get Twister as their only Dragon move until Outrage at like 50+lvl. It's painfully bad.
Well....at least Dratini is kinda supposed to be bad for a while
i actually disagree on future sight here. on defensive psychic types FS is good because it punishes pivots, and defensive players in competitive pkmn gain turn advantage by forcing switches. pair future sight with teleport and you have a mon that simultaneously punishes your opponents pivots while allowing your own mons to switch safely.
it only got good after the bp buff to 120 but since then its a powerful tool with not the best distribution
pursuit also got cut because it caused logic bugs in the code in every generation. every time they patched the move it just created new bugs, for 5 gens in a row
I FORGOT ABOUT POCKET SAND
lol, a+ laughter. thank you.
Ground is a good attacking type!!
35:00 huh, for some reason I always lumped up Foresight and Odor Sleuth with Mind Reader and Lock-On as "make next move bypass accuracy" moves. TIL they're actually even more crap, since the latter at least have a niche use of hitting OHKOs and the like.
Not like anyone uses any of those four moves anyway!!
funny thing about foresight is that hitmontop used it in gen 4 UU for rapid spinning, he was that good at clearing hazards that some people would run 2 ghosts to keep him from doing it... Not enough to move tiers but I thought you should know this.
I'd rather use ODOR SLEUTH
@@ImportedCheese sniff > sight
fun fact about the shop keeper in Links Awakening, he will empty ALL 16 heart containers AND go through the full health potion, meaning he does 32 hearts of damage, THAT WE KNOW OF!!!
Strongest attack in zelda history and its a f**king DREAM!
YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE STOLEN
nice haircut.
I put it in B Rank. It's outclassed by your old hair style but it does still well. It will get you through a day.
It has lower Appeal stats, but it no longer debuffs my Fire type resistance
Not going to argue that Beat Up isn't niche, but it's worth noting that the "Beat Up on your own Justified sweeper" strat was a lot more viable in Sword/Shield since with Dynamax you could get a +4 boost while taking negligible damage.
Sword and Shield and D*namax tho
44:53 also worth using back then, not because it was all that good but because you didnt really have that many other options
There really were shockingly few moves
I've convinced myself that Perish Song rivals Roar when it comes to Baton Pass. My reasoning is that you pass your perish counter along with the stat boosts, including to Soundproof Pokemon, along with the fact that it isn't -6 priority, meaning you can't get bamboozled by your opponent Baton Passing to a Soundproof Pokemon
Bruh but Soundproof blocks perish song (unless the soundproof pokemon itself uses perish song which is...not very useful)
Gen 2 competitive is like visiting your grandparents at a nursery home.
Hey, at least my grandparents have stories to tell me
Oh, Safeguard was used on Volcarona in Gen 8 to guard against toxic and paralysis stopping its sweep. I’ve also seen someone use it on Mega Altaria I think?
A real use?!
Late but its also used on alolan ninetails with aurora veil to make sure switch ins don’t get crippled. It is a really good combo to have.
Can we at least award Future Sight giga meme status for that Bulbapedia article
I'm sure nothing will change in gen 10
So, I have a comment that hasn't been touched on yet...Perish Song is too low, and Mean Look might be too low as well.
I can understand trying to forget such things as Gen 2's terrible meta and early Gen 6 with Genesect and Mega Kangaskhan, but Mean Look was absolutely a staple in the former, and I'd call Perish Song Meta Defining in both. Hell, Perish Song was even viable in Gen 6 UBERS once Mega Gengar got sent there. As is, the only other moves in the niche tier that have ever been meta threats are: Beat Up, which has never been anything but a niche pick with easy counterplay, Future Sight, which has been touched on already and "only" has Gen 8 post Slowtwins introduction as a meta threat, and the lower tiers of Gen 3 with Reversal and Flail Salac Berry Substitute sets. I'd put Perish Song at least at the top of niche with the possible exception of Future Sight.
(also, can't wait for Cheese to discuss entry hazards and have a very sad Charizard puppy when we get to Gen 4.)
Edit: Also, for a niche comment, there WERE actual sets in Ubers that had Sleep Talk and not Rest! Ubers in Gen 4-6, usually Kyogre, had it because Darkrai was very common and Dark Void used to be very accurate (please revert the accuracy nerf gamefreak why did you massacre it so badly while also making Smeargle unable to use it), and you didn't really need more than 3 moves for Kyogre anyways, you could get by with Thunder, Ice Beam, and whatever your water move of choice was.