Kinda like a typical Smartphone experience. When they're new, the battery seems to last forever but eventually that charge just doesn't last the way it used to. The biggest difference is not having to push your Smartphone home.
the batteries cost over half the price of the bike. they are designed to go bad over a five year period(give or take a few years). there is NO MONEY in making something that will last 10 years or more. they need you coming back to buy the 'NEW' toy every couple of years, at a higher price of coarse.
@@detansinn9882 that's what they say. not saying it won't be that way, just that we'll see the performance in the used bike market, not in spec sheets
Why do I have to pay for hardware already installed on my bike OP? I really, REALLY love the torquey nature, linear power delivery, and less maintenance requirements of electric bikes but JFC!!! As shlomo shlomowitz said, stuff like software as a service, range anxiety, recharge time and much higher entry prices are things that EV bikes (and the EV market as a whole) must first address before they can seriously compete against ICE bikes (and cars).
@@thespectator5259 You nailed it. Though software as a service (saas) is making an appearence in cars (BMW apparently are charging saas for heated seats).
Video was on while I got ready to ride my katana. Don't care about electric bikes but want to say good channel and keep up the great work. You helped me get back into riding after my injuries during deployment. Comment extended to present as deeper engagement and further discussion. Love ya guys be well!
I don't understand why anyone would buy one of these. If you are just going to ride around the city, why would you spend $20k+ when a scooter will do the same thing for far less. If you want to go for a longer ride, you don't have the range to do so. So, all its really good for is commuting from the burbs to the city, and even then you need to be within 40 miles of the city or risk getting stranded.
2+ hours would be considered a "longer" ride imo. Cruising at 80mph, I doubt either of these bikes would make it more than an hour without stopping to charge. The whole getting lost / exploring roads part of riding would be impossible with one of these. By the time I got out of the city, I'd have to turn around and come back or start planning my route to a charging station. Does not sound like fun to me.
People all over the world would love to spend less on fuel and the future, which is likely what you have little faith in, is what might lead to less expensive models. Some folks that are spending the $20k+ on these are likely the ones that see that future and want to be the first if they can afford it because it also means if they sell now, they’ll make em cheaper to sell in the future. Foresight is what you don’t understand.
@@bennyadrianmartinez Not talking about the future, I'm talking about now. You give me an electric motorcycle that is no heavier than a similar ICE bike, has 150+ miles of range, same purchase price, and can be recharged from 0-100% in 3 minutes or less at any gas station and I'll change my tune. We are decades away from that. Why would I spend more for something that delivers far less utility?
People are unnecessarily hard on electric bikes, especially about range, but manufacturers don't have rhe right to be upset about that when they try so hard to hide hoe short the range really is.
I've been thrilled with my 2020 Zero SR/F but I absolutely understand the points you all are making as long time ICE bike riders. Riding the Zero has definitely changed how I commute and think about planning my routes, making sure I keep charging stations on the brain. Mine came with the charge tank and a lvl1 auxiliary charger with the purchase so I can charge off a wall socket in a pinch. I do still have my car for longer trips, but I'm getting more and more comfortable with stopping for a charge mid ride if need be. I really do enjoy riding it that much. I must admit though that I've been considering an old Sport Tourer (ST, VFR, BMW, etc.) as a long range backup bike or possibly trading in the Zero for an Energica Ribelle later down the line... Appreciate the awesome content, guys. Keep up the good work.
These are the real world tests we need for EV bikes. I’m watching a series of videos about a pair of EV bikes being taken across Wales, so far no anxieties about battery, it’s all roses and candy for those guys. The problem is their trip is well mapped out for the most part and that’s not the way I would like to take a road trip. I would just head out with a general path, and go pick whatever road I wanted along the way, getting gas when needed. EV range and charging is not comparable to i.c.e. yet!
I love the fact that I can get gas in 2 minutes from practically anywhere. I'm just not into Electric bikes are all mostly due to the range. Its just meh.
Electrics are easier to justify in Britain because it's so much smaller and the speeds are slower. I have the same range anxiety trying to justify a Triumph Bonneville here in Arizona where it's 90 miles to get to riding country and if you can't maintain 70+ mph you'll literally get run over. I liked their comments about how the bikes handling characteristics are easier to discern without exhaust roar and gear changes. I also like the ability to take the bike out of my suburban community at 6 a.m. without waking all the neighbors up. Speaking of noise, I thought the Harley had a noticeable whine that the Zero didn't. That distracted me during the video.
The dude on Zero motorcycle was pushing it more than the dude on Livewire, plus Zero started out at 93% and Livewire started at 99%, need to run it back
You right man, this test is ridiculous, not objective. THis guys need to have both bike with the same battery charge level and drive eguale. After that you will have the right comparaison.
For full disclosure, I own a 2021 SR/F. In the video you mentioned the Zero's lack of engine brake feel from the regen while the livewire had a better engine brake feel. You also mentioned you have both in Sport mode. In sport mode the Zero turns off ALL regen, braking and motor. I don't know about the livewire, but if you are feeling it I would assume the livewire still has some regen in sport mode. I have created a custom mode on my Zero that has the hp and torque of sport mode with the regen of eco mode and increased my distance fun riding like you all were by about 18 miles. Even though both bikes are in sport mode, it might not be an apples to apples comparison. I still enjoy my SR/F as a daily rider that I plug in every other day at home, and I would much rather give my money to manufacturers paying employees quality dollars than give it to oil baron asshats. Electric is not perfect yet but it needs those of us who can do it to believe in it just like cars vs horses at the turn of the century. Changes in transportation take time. There was not a gas station on every corner as we began to adopt the ICE.
For me, it would be hard to give up shifting on a bike. It's part of the fun and appeal. I love rev matching. It's like an achievement every time you get it just perfect. A continuous throttle would be boring imo. Same as those cvt bikes
This is the problem with EV bikes: Range. My daily commute is 40 miles per day, with the 4 gallon tank on my daily bike doing 55-60mpg being more than enough to only need filling once per week with some left over for doing errands. And because we have Pay-At-Pump in the UK (Not sure if it's a thing in the US), it takes literally 5 mins to fill up. And fuel stations are everywhere. Why do I want to get a bike that costs that much but requires 8-12 hours of charging time every two days! I use a bike for most of my errands; in the UK filtering is legal so there are times it takes literally half the time to get places as it would take in a car. And if I go for a ride out on my 'fun' bike (I am a multi-bike garage boi), it also does somewhere around 200 miles per tank, maybe 180 if I push it but I'm not a rapid rider. So an EV BIke is a terrible option as a practical mode of transport and is also a terrible fun bike because it limits me to literally half the fun. So why do these useless things exist other than to stroke egos and be a status object on someone's driveway. I do like the EV content the channel is doing as it is genuine real world stuff; it's not ideal conditions with ideal riding style; it's bikers being bikers and d*cking around, having fun, going places and generally enjoying what makes motorcycle special.
Good points except that charging for commuting can be thought of as taking LESS time than gasoline fillups since you get home, plugin in 5 seconds, and bike is ready in the morning. As an EV owner for years now, long trips is where it gets annoying due to the extra planning needed.
This doesn't make sense. Do you not drive your bike home and sleep 8h-ish every night? How is it that much harder to plug the bike in rather than just pull it in to the garage? I too am a multi-bike garage dude with no electric ones yet and can agree with the cost and symbol status being ridiculous, but it would be extremely practical for the commuting scenario you presented...
@@SWTrailsAndWheels no, refueling is refueling. If you get home and realize you forgot something at work do you say, "welp I guess I've gotta wait 16 hours and get it tomorrow?" You wouldn't need to do that if it had the range. Plus, and this is battery chemistry and technology specific, but you wear out a battery the more cycles you charge. So microcharging cycles may do as much wear as fully discharging and recharging (again, depends on battery type).
@@Gideon_Judges6 I select EVs and keep enough charge in them to handle this type of situation. For my commute and errands I typically only have to charge every 3 to 4 days in my cars. If I had a Livewire I would reduce that to charging every 2 days. I also have access to DC fast charging which adds quite a bit of range even in 5 to 10 minutes of charging. That's another great thing about the Harley. It can handle DC fast charging.
We were told this summer on the news to turn up our temperature in our homes, so as not to over task the power grid this summer. Explain how this is supposed to work if we all go electric?
When I ride. I don't usually have a destination in mind. I just explore on a Sunday morning. If I had an electric bike, I don't know if I would like that. What if I end up in a rural area? Am I going to have to have a ramp in my truck, and call the wife to come and get me? No thanks. But I do ride a Royal Enfield, so it's bound to happen at some point. But I plan on getting a bigger bike next year.
You'd be surprised about the RE. I live in a developing country, so i bought my Himalayan out of need for an off roader and because I couldn't drop the 18'000usd they ask for a KLR here or wouldn't pay 10'000 for a chinese 650. Still, went through the desert and back multiple times and i still have to see problems with the Hima.
Not for every ride for sure but 108 miles considering their riding style in this video is pretty good if you wanted a commuter bike or local run about. Long trips obviously aren't the strong suit but who doesn't have multiple bikes? That thing looks fun as hell to thrash to work/a buddies house and back and just plug in to 110 in my garage overnight.
Why not ride untill they wouldn't ride anymore instead of at 5%. Then you'll know the propper range as differnt manufacturers hide the true % of battery
Great video. Good to see the Livewire is living up to the hype. For all the Zero is not as good as the Livewire, Yammie was clearly enjoying riding the Zero. There are alot of used Live wires for sale on Motohunt. And alot of unsold new Zero's. Early in the video when Yammie and Josh pulled up to an intersection ,I just wanted to pull up behind them in an evil four cylinder 1000 cc ricer with a pipe on it that sounded like Satan when you rev it and let Satan have a conversation with the Karens in the cars around them. There is just something about that WHOMP! WHOMP! WHOMP! that never gets old. I hope we never lose riders who appreciate that music.
I love the look and seemingly wonderful performance of the Livewire, but I commute 54 miles each way to work on the Interstate, and I can't imagine having to charge it like that. Although, I do have to fill up everyday on my Street Triple. I guess I should do the speed limit, but my gas is free!
They are still, as Yam said, "toys" for the rich people. I will wait until these bikes become real world motorcycles for the real world riders like me, then I will buy one. The Livewire, so far, has not disappointed me from all the videos I've seen about it specially the review done by Bike World.
The recharge time for mine is 10 sec - the time it takes for me to plug it in and walk into my house. When I come back, it’s fully charged. You gotta break out of the gas station mentality. Don’t miss out on the fun!!
I can pull up my maps application and find any number of gas stations ANYWHERE within my reserve range unless I’ve made a truly grievous error of navigation. The same is not true for EV charging stations. I love these things in principle but this tech isn’t mature enough for me to make it my main transport yet, and that’s why I ride.
Keep at it. Yeah I agree EV bikes aren’t there *yet* but seeing Yam and crew at the bleeding edge of all things is why I keep coming back. While not a performance machine like either of these, would be curious to see an honest take on the Metacycle. I love that there is so much room to innovate on EVs .. but you’re going to get bad ideas too. Best way to find a good idea is have lots of ideas
I like your electric bike content. Of course, I'm a retired computer scientist / engineer type and have an interest in following the EV industry. I have a '22 Energica Eva Ribelle. It's a great bike if you understand the current limitations of the technology. I can get a solid 100 miles of range of mostly high speed riding without paying any attention to conserving energy. It would be nice to have half again more range for the group rides I do. Most of them are between 100 and 150 miles. Fortunately, here in California there are enough chargers where I can peel off on the way home and stop for a quick charge if necessary. The biggest problem right now with charging is the number of broken chargers out there. That issue has been covered on several of the EV TH-cam channels. If you can do a side by side test between an Energica and a Livewire it would be useful to have a charging test along with a simple range test. The Energicas and Livewire are the only bikes on the market currently that have DC fast charging. Two charging tests would be informative. One charging each bike once and a longer test with at least 3 charging sessions. One issue that has not been covered well on other reviews is that on the Energica the battery heats up when you do a DC fast charge. This slows the charging speed on subsequent DC fast charges if the battery does not have time to cool down. This would be a common situation if you are touring. I suspect that the Livewire has the same issue since neither bike has any active battery cooling. Thank you for your entertaining content! I'm looking forward to seeing your Energica review.
I have an EV bike but used solely as a daily commuter. I love it for that purpose and the predictable route solves any range or charging issues. I take 4 two way trips from my house to my small business 6 days a week with some sidetrips to a courier, hardware or grocery. All within a 10km radius. If I need to go out of town, I take my ICE vehicles. Cut my fuel costs by a considerable amount since my main ride is a truck.
Imagine trying to do any type of distance trip on one of these. Every 80-90 miles you need to stop for 1-2 hours to charge. These are $20k city communters.
Damon motorcycle has a claimed 200 mile range and has a 20kw battery and can charge to 80 percent in 45 minutes. With DC fast charging That seems more practical honestly if it can have 100 miles of range it seems pretty practical
And after riding 100 miles and charging, the battery will overheat, further reducing range and extending charge time. I think battery tech still needs to improve before electric bikes are viable.
Manufacturer lying is why I will not even consider swapping my petrol courier bike. Nice to see Harley finally getting its act together and becoming more than just a merchandise selling company again.
It's not lying but controlled and based off not speeding and doing burn outs and wheelies.They could of done way passed what they did in the video making the manufacturer an under estimate. Show me yours gets the same mpg at 60mph as 90mph as they did for a good chunk when they covered up the speedometer.I prefer a regular engine because you can just dump some fuel in and go something you can't do if out in the mountains or cover the same long distance with current battery technology.
@@Random-ed2xf Its a 125cc I am lucky to see 55mph, but as you point out I can always quickly refill it. Its a 125cc I have for courier insurance reasons, I pay £1368 (1573.20 US $) per year in insurance...Plus over $2000 in vehicle repair costs/downtime.
What I think would be most ideal were swappable battery packs with a uniform standard. Imagine going to a gas station and they have a full rack of charged and maintained batteries that you can just pick up and trade with your now depleted battery. And then you just put the battery into your bike and bam you can keep going without having to charge it for hours but instead with a 1 minute swap. Of course this would mean that most gas stations would need huge amounts of charging stations and a uniform standard for battery construction and storage so all bikes regardless of manufacturer are compatible with each other. That idea sounds so nice and is completely unfeasible because standards are whack and everybody wants to do their own thing regardless of how sensible the product would be.
We can't get a sensible common standard even with battery power tools, which really pisses me off. I love the idea of a battery station, but I'm fairly sure that most of the time i would just choose the newest battery in the rack and never swap it until it starts degrading permanently.
By the sound of it Harley Davidson have finally discovered how to make a decent bike, in comparison to other brands that is. Now all they need to do is make it look good.
Why not an electric motorcycle with half the HP but twice the range? Seriously you can't tap into 100hp anyway, so why not cut back the engine to get more range. Give me 300km on a charge then I'll start getting excited.
I like Electric-Bike content, Why can't the Motorcycle Manufacturers Have a Replacement Battery that You can Carry with You for when You Run-Out of Electricity in Your Battery, Like a Reserve-Tank, That You could Charge and Bring with You, To get You to A Charging Station or Home, Depending where You are.
There are bikes that have that functionality. Check out Elektrek for articles. They're normal for smaller bikes (125cc equivalents) As batteries of this size are incredibly heavy and most consumers do not have the equipment to jack and lift these batteries.
Great comparative video. I would like to have seen a charging test on both bikes, roll up to a supercharging station and see how long it takes to go from 5% to 100% charge and do the same at a regular charging station. Also discuss any issues you might have rolling up to a charging station, normally equipped to charge cars.
If electric bikes ever drop in price by 30-40%, then they would be much more of a consideration in my book. Seems like with today's ICE bikes, you can get a WHOLE LOT MORE bang per buck nowadays - more power, speed, range, options, upgrades, tunability, and nothing beats an inline four's beautiful engine note.
I personally love the inline 4 sound and maybe that's just the Japanese fanboy in me who loves tuner cars and turboed 4 cylinder noises. And my i4 motorcycle itches that scratch for me.
These bikes still don’t exist on Maui. All these years later and the First live wire hasn’t arrived on island yet. Strange thing is maui is perfect for them because there’s no interstates here, it’s all 45-55 mph speed limits and lots of twisty mountain roads. And there’s not a single Tesla charging station here either. It’s nice to see the Livewire isnt $30k anymore but they are still unobtainium here anyway. But to be honest, if I had $22k to spend on a bike I wouldn’t buy a LiveWire. I’d get a naked bike AND a supermoto.
Dont run Lithium batteries down to 0. Thats how you destroy their life expectancy and capacity. Also never charge them to 100% and leave them sitting around unused for day/weeks this will hurt their life expectancy and capacity. Lithum batteries need a lot of looking after to extend its life. Also, the higher the kw/hr the greater the capacity. You dont want one with low kw/hr with a powerful motor. Seems like Livewire guys did their homework.
I feel both of these are missing out on alot of potential due to NOT having a transmission. How wont these benefit from a 5 or 6 speed transmission? Hell even a simple 2 speed would probably help.
Great video. Shame you did not manage to get both at least to the same state of charge. Zero has a smaller battery and had lower state of charge at the beginning of the test. I guess if it had a battery about the same size and was charged up to the same state of charge, the results could be around the same. Regarding the torque: As I understood the Zero has a belt, but I could not see what the lifewire has. It would be also nice to mention the battery buffers both motorcycles have. Thanks and good job.
I know you guys don't like doing dirt videos because ppl don't tend to watch them, but I would love to see how an electric dual sport/OHV performs, like the new Zero FXE.
Yam! I have a real good video idea for you based on my real life situation. I live in an area with high bike thefts. Idea: test the best anti theft devices/methods and/or the best gps trackers (cost, hideability, subscription, network signal, useability, etc).
Cool bikes but 1. It’s a bit odd to me that Harley didn’t make or also make an electric cruiser 2. Better battery tech or much much better aerodynamics will be needed to hit 200+ miles of range.
I really want an electric bike and appreciate your coverage, since it's telling me I still need to wait. If nothing else I can't see myself spending > $15K for a bike regardless of what it is. Despite my desire for an EV bike, I think my next bike will be a CB650R since yes, I am an old man.
See I wanted a zero but I hear there is also some issues with zero unable to make repairs and lack of places to get repairs done on the zero. It is a nice bike but needs the Infrastructure for charging. I have a ninja and I love that bike. I would consider a zero if they could get more charge stations and more support for zero to have repairs done.
Yammi - please do a show on the best available electric bikes by category. Is there an electric adventure bike? What’s your favorite sport, naked and dirt e bikes?
When it comes to e-bikes it's all about range. Until they can match ice range and recharge quickly they will continue to be regulated to townies. My commute is 68+ miles a day and while both can do that, they don't reach my 250 mile range of my ice bike which comes in handy for trips. I can easily spend 8+ hours in the saddle on a road trip and neither of these bikes could get me there without a lengthy "charge the bike back up" break.
With bikes being as cheap as they are, having both an ICE and electric could/should be an option for a lot of people. Electric bike for commuting and daily errands, an ICE for the longer trips. But none of the bikes tested can really be considered a great fit for commuting.
The battery of the Zero is certainly damaged if it can't be charged to more than 93%. So, it is not serious journalism to compare a defect bike with a bike in perfect order. (Some other things are not equal either, like regenereation.)
I’d like to see how the battery hold ups after 1-2 years of consistent riding. Is it going to be like an iPhone, and the battery just slowly goes downhill? I’m just guessing that won’t be covered under warranty even if you bought it new
Don't have either of these, but I have a Niu N-GT approaching 25k miles in under 3 years. No noticeable drop in range so far. Heard of a BMW C Evolution that after 8 years (don't know the mileage) is also still running as if it came out of the factory yesterday. Battery degradation was a big issue 10 years ago when this technology just got started, but in my experience not much anymore today.
Had the 2020 Livewire for 2 years and finally had to get rid of it. My area just isn’t set up for long trips and was stuck using quick chargers at every chance just to make it out of town for a few hours. Maybe in 5 years the infrastructure will be ready for these.
I think in new Zealand u plan around supermarket or recharge top up places, at cost for your trip as well so top up recharge and accommodation / shopping as well 😊😊😊
Man these electric bikes still have a very long way to go. At a price point of over $20,000 totally not worth only being able to ride 100 miles or less on a charge. I could see maybe if you only did in town and city riding and nothing more.
At taht point we are talking about a glorified scooter, just sayin... ...and people ain't gonna fork over 20K$ for a scooter. Thus flase advertising is everywhere.
Kinda like a typical Smartphone experience. When they're new, the battery seems to last forever but eventually that charge just doesn't last the way it used to. The biggest difference is not having to push your Smartphone home.
The LiveWire battery is designed for 10 years of service. A smartphone is designed for 2 years. It’s not the same.
@@detansinn9882 ten years if you charge it one time a day five days a week, and never let it discharge all the way,
the batteries cost over half the price of the bike. they are designed to go bad over a five year period(give or take a few years). there is NO MONEY in making something that will last 10 years or more. they need you coming back to buy the 'NEW' toy every couple of years, at a higher price of coarse.
We've now had two competing claims of 10 and 5 years battery life expectancy. Citations. Are. Needed.
@@detansinn9882 that's what they say. not saying it won't be that way, just that we'll see the performance in the used bike market, not in spec sheets
I am never trusting a company that tries to upsell you on features it already has on the vehicle.
bingo
Shoulda paid the extra $3000 for the software to turn on the premium battery capacity
Do that much later so they have to replace your worn battery since it won't meet the specified claims.
Why do I have to pay for hardware already installed on my bike OP? I really, REALLY love the torquey nature, linear power delivery, and less maintenance requirements of electric bikes but JFC!!! As shlomo shlomowitz said, stuff like software as a service, range anxiety, recharge time and much higher entry prices are things that EV bikes (and the EV market as a whole) must first address before they can seriously compete against ICE bikes (and cars).
@@thespectator5259 You nailed it. Though software as a service (saas) is making an appearence in cars (BMW apparently are charging saas for heated seats).
@@thespectator5259 That was the point, lol
No, let Zero and their anti-consumerism die.
Consider Harley/Livewire or Energica until they put their shit together (including DC charging).
Video was on while I got ready to ride my katana. Don't care about electric bikes but want to say good channel and keep up the great work. You helped me get back into riding after my injuries during deployment. Comment extended to present as deeper engagement and further discussion. Love ya guys be well!
I don't understand why anyone would buy one of these. If you are just going to ride around the city, why would you spend $20k+ when a scooter will do the same thing for far less. If you want to go for a longer ride, you don't have the range to do so. So, all its really good for is commuting from the burbs to the city, and even then you need to be within 40 miles of the city or risk getting stranded.
what’s a long ride? i do 110 plus miles on my livewire no problem.
@Colton Thies a day or a week? Whats the recharge time like?
2+ hours would be considered a "longer" ride imo. Cruising at 80mph, I doubt either of these bikes would make it more than an hour without stopping to charge. The whole getting lost / exploring roads part of riding would be impossible with one of these. By the time I got out of the city, I'd have to turn around and come back or start planning my route to a charging station. Does not sound like fun to me.
People all over the world would love to spend less on fuel and the future, which is likely what you have little faith in, is what might lead to less expensive models. Some folks that are spending the $20k+ on these are likely the ones that see that future and want to be the first if they can afford it because it also means if they sell now, they’ll make em cheaper to sell in the future.
Foresight is what you don’t understand.
@@bennyadrianmartinez Not talking about the future, I'm talking about now. You give me an electric motorcycle that is no heavier than a similar ICE bike, has 150+ miles of range, same purchase price, and can be recharged from 0-100% in 3 minutes or less at any gas station and I'll change my tune. We are decades away from that. Why would I spend more for something that delivers far less utility?
People are unnecessarily hard on electric bikes, especially about range, but manufacturers don't have rhe right to be upset about that when they try so hard to hide hoe short the range really is.
I've been thrilled with my 2020 Zero SR/F but I absolutely understand the points you all are making as long time ICE bike riders. Riding the Zero has definitely changed how I commute and think about planning my routes, making sure I keep charging stations on the brain. Mine came with the charge tank and a lvl1 auxiliary charger with the purchase so I can charge off a wall socket in a pinch. I do still have my car for longer trips, but I'm getting more and more comfortable with stopping for a charge mid ride if need be. I really do enjoy riding it that much. I must admit though that I've been considering an old Sport Tourer (ST, VFR, BMW, etc.) as a long range backup bike or possibly trading in the Zero for an Energica Ribelle later down the line... Appreciate the awesome content, guys. Keep up the good work.
As long as your zero works . Enjoy it !!! .. and choose the right moment to end your zero relationship and nevervlook back .. :-)
These are the real world tests we need for EV bikes. I’m watching a series of videos about a pair of EV bikes being taken across Wales, so far no anxieties about battery, it’s all roses and candy for those guys. The problem is their trip is well mapped out for the most part and that’s not the way I would like to take a road trip. I would just head out with a general path, and go pick whatever road I wanted along the way, getting gas when needed. EV range and charging is not comparable to i.c.e. yet!
I love the fact that I can get gas in 2 minutes from practically anywhere. I'm just not into Electric bikes are all mostly due to the range. Its just meh.
@@ralphwarom2514 I’m right with you. When EV can charge as quickly as gas and as readily as gas, then I might be interested.
Electrics are easier to justify in Britain because it's so much smaller and the speeds are slower. I have the same range anxiety trying to justify a Triumph Bonneville here in Arizona where it's 90 miles to get to riding country and if you can't maintain 70+ mph you'll literally get run over.
I liked their comments about how the bikes handling characteristics are easier to discern without exhaust roar and gear changes. I also like the ability to take the bike out of my suburban community at 6 a.m. without waking all the neighbors up. Speaking of noise, I thought the Harley had a noticeable whine that the Zero didn't. That distracted me during the video.
@@robertmatetich2898 All Excellent points. Yes for sure everything is so much bigger and faster here in America.
@@PetrolJunkie Yeah I think right now that’s what they are suited for. Especially in a bigger city with some EV infrastructure.
zero been "improving" their products for 10+ years now and its still garbage!
The dude on Zero motorcycle was pushing it more than the dude on Livewire, plus Zero started out at 93% and Livewire started at 99%, need to run it back
You right man, this test is ridiculous, not objective. THis guys need to have both bike with the same battery charge level and drive eguale. After that you will have the right comparaison.
"we're not going to ride for 2 or 3 hours on the same bike- that would just be boring" Woah, take it easy your highness.
The Harley is considered a SPORTBIKE??!! Hell no! It's an electric "standard".
For full disclosure, I own a 2021 SR/F. In the video you mentioned the Zero's lack of engine brake feel from the regen while the livewire had a better engine brake feel. You also mentioned you have both in Sport mode. In sport mode the Zero turns off ALL regen, braking and motor. I don't know about the livewire, but if you are feeling it I would assume the livewire still has some regen in sport mode. I have created a custom mode on my Zero that has the hp and torque of sport mode with the regen of eco mode and increased my distance fun riding like you all were by about 18 miles. Even though both bikes are in sport mode, it might not be an apples to apples comparison. I still enjoy my SR/F as a daily rider that I plug in every other day at home, and I would much rather give my money to manufacturers paying employees quality dollars than give it to oil baron asshats. Electric is not perfect yet but it needs those of us who can do it to believe in it just like cars vs horses at the turn of the century. Changes in transportation take time. There was not a gas station on every corner as we began to adopt the ICE.
Great comment! Regen makes a whole lot of difference for range on EV's
Livewire has 80% regen in sport mode
Electric cars appeared even before ICE, but hey were not competitive. Same happens now.
Burnout at 9:58 sounds like you're getting a filling at the dentist.
For me, it would be hard to give up shifting on a bike. It's part of the fun and appeal. I love rev matching. It's like an achievement every time you get it just perfect. A continuous throttle would be boring imo. Same as those cvt bikes
This is the problem with EV bikes: Range. My daily commute is 40 miles per day, with the 4 gallon tank on my daily bike doing 55-60mpg being more than enough to only need filling once per week with some left over for doing errands. And because we have Pay-At-Pump in the UK (Not sure if it's a thing in the US), it takes literally 5 mins to fill up. And fuel stations are everywhere.
Why do I want to get a bike that costs that much but requires 8-12 hours of charging time every two days! I use a bike for most of my errands; in the UK filtering is legal so there are times it takes literally half the time to get places as it would take in a car.
And if I go for a ride out on my 'fun' bike (I am a multi-bike garage boi), it also does somewhere around 200 miles per tank, maybe 180 if I push it but I'm not a rapid rider. So an EV BIke is a terrible option as a practical mode of transport and is also a terrible fun bike because it limits me to literally half the fun. So why do these useless things exist other than to stroke egos and be a status object on someone's driveway.
I do like the EV content the channel is doing as it is genuine real world stuff; it's not ideal conditions with ideal riding style; it's bikers being bikers and d*cking around, having fun, going places and generally enjoying what makes motorcycle special.
Good points except that charging for commuting can be thought of as taking LESS time than gasoline fillups since you get home, plugin in 5 seconds, and bike is ready in the morning. As an EV owner for years now, long trips is where it gets annoying due to the extra planning needed.
This doesn't make sense. Do you not drive your bike home and sleep 8h-ish every night? How is it that much harder to plug the bike in rather than just pull it in to the garage?
I too am a multi-bike garage dude with no electric ones yet and can agree with the cost and symbol status being ridiculous, but it would be extremely practical for the commuting scenario you presented...
@@SWTrailsAndWheels no, refueling is refueling. If you get home and realize you forgot something at work do you say, "welp I guess I've gotta wait 16 hours and get it tomorrow?" You wouldn't need to do that if it had the range. Plus, and this is battery chemistry and technology specific, but you wear out a battery the more cycles you charge. So microcharging cycles may do as much wear as fully discharging and recharging (again, depends on battery type).
About the existence of this thing. Everything has a start somewhere, and this is the path of ebikes.
@@Gideon_Judges6 I select EVs and keep enough charge in them to handle this type of situation. For my commute and errands I typically only have to charge every 3 to 4 days in my cars. If I had a Livewire I would reduce that to charging every 2 days. I also have access to DC fast charging which adds quite a bit of range even in 5 to 10 minutes of charging. That's another great thing about the Harley. It can handle DC fast charging.
We were told this summer on the news to turn up our temperature in our homes, so as not to over task the power grid this summer. Explain how this is supposed to work if we all go electric?
When I ride. I don't usually have a destination in mind. I just explore on a Sunday morning. If I had an electric bike, I don't know if I would like that. What if I end up in a rural area? Am I going to have to have a ramp in my truck, and call the wife to come and get me? No thanks. But I do ride a Royal Enfield, so it's bound to happen at some point. But I plan on getting a bigger bike next year.
You'd be surprised about the RE. I live in a developing country, so i bought my Himalayan out of need for an off roader and because I couldn't drop the 18'000usd they ask for a KLR here or wouldn't pay 10'000 for a chinese 650. Still, went through the desert and back multiple times and i still have to see problems with the Hima.
Not for every ride for sure but 108 miles considering their riding style in this video is pretty good if you wanted a commuter bike or local run about. Long trips obviously aren't the strong suit but who doesn't have multiple bikes? That thing looks fun as hell to thrash to work/a buddies house and back and just plug in to 110 in my garage overnight.
Why not ride untill they wouldn't ride anymore instead of at 5%. Then you'll know the propper range as differnt manufacturers hide the true % of battery
Great video.
Good to see the Livewire is living up to the hype.
For all the Zero is not as good as the Livewire, Yammie was clearly enjoying riding the Zero.
There are alot of used Live wires for sale on Motohunt.
And alot of unsold new Zero's.
Early in the video when Yammie and Josh pulled up to an intersection ,I just wanted to pull up behind them in an evil four cylinder 1000 cc ricer with a pipe on it that sounded like Satan when you rev it and let Satan have a conversation with the Karens in the cars around them.
There is just something about that WHOMP! WHOMP! WHOMP! that never gets old.
I hope we never lose riders who appreciate that music.
I love the look and seemingly wonderful performance of the Livewire, but I commute 54 miles each way to work on the Interstate, and I can't imagine having to charge it like that. Although, I do have to fill up everyday on my Street Triple. I guess I should do the speed limit, but my gas is free!
I can't imagine getting an EV when you can get free gas! WHAT!?
Where do you get free gas
@@Zee216 work perk
Charge it at work. That’s what I do.
They are still, as Yam said, "toys" for the rich people. I will wait until these bikes become real world motorcycles for the real world riders like me, then I will buy one. The Livewire, so far, has not disappointed me from all the videos I've seen about it specially the review done by Bike World.
Unlike other new HD bikes they make for poor folk.
ZERO IS GARBAGE!
does the livewire suffer from the same subscription service to unlock the features already on the bike? - if not, then it is a far better price lol
And your gas bike refuels in 60 seconds at the closest gas station...........
If I wanted to have 80 miles in range, I’d go with the Harley Sportster FortyEight
When you’re up for an 82 mile scoot with your crew.. cause that’s a solid 90 minutes or less on a Saturday and then I guess… day drink in your garage.
Nice Tchaikovsky at the end
The recharge time for mine is 10 sec - the time it takes for me to plug it in and walk into my house. When I come back, it’s fully charged.
You gotta break out of the gas station mentality. Don’t miss out on the fun!!
Excellent review. Thank you.
Silent motorcycling in traffic would scare me to death.
I can pull up my maps application and find any number of gas stations ANYWHERE within my reserve range unless I’ve made a truly grievous error of navigation.
The same is not true for EV charging stations.
I love these things in principle but this tech isn’t mature enough for me to make it my main transport yet, and that’s why I ride.
Keep at it. Yeah I agree EV bikes aren’t there *yet* but seeing Yam and crew at the bleeding edge of all things is why I keep coming back. While not a performance machine like either of these, would be curious to see an honest take on the Metacycle.
I love that there is so much room to innovate on EVs .. but you’re going to get bad ideas too. Best way to find a good idea is have lots of ideas
I like your electric bike content. Of course, I'm a retired computer scientist / engineer type and have an interest in following the EV industry. I have a '22 Energica Eva Ribelle. It's a great bike if you understand the current limitations of the technology. I can get a solid 100 miles of range of mostly high speed riding without paying any attention to conserving energy. It would be nice to have half again more range for the group rides I do. Most of them are between 100 and 150 miles. Fortunately, here in California there are enough chargers where I can peel off on the way home and stop for a quick charge if necessary. The biggest problem right now with charging is the number of broken chargers out there. That issue has been covered on several of the EV TH-cam channels.
If you can do a side by side test between an Energica and a Livewire it would be useful to have a charging test along with a simple range test. The Energicas and Livewire are the only bikes on the market currently that have DC fast charging. Two charging tests would be informative. One charging each bike once and a longer test with at least 3 charging sessions.
One issue that has not been covered well on other reviews is that on the Energica the battery heats up when you do a DC fast charge. This slows the charging speed on subsequent DC fast charges if the battery does not have time to cool down. This would be a common situation if you are touring. I suspect that the Livewire has the same issue since neither bike has any active battery cooling.
Thank you for your entertaining content! I'm looking forward to seeing your Energica review.
I have an EV bike but used solely as a daily commuter. I love it for that purpose and the predictable route solves any range or charging issues. I take 4 two way trips from my house to my small business 6 days a week with some sidetrips to a courier, hardware or grocery. All within a 10km radius. If I need to go out of town, I take my ICE vehicles. Cut my fuel costs by a considerable amount since my main ride is a truck.
@@bonesrhodes3762 if you’re trying to cut fuel costs to zero just drop 2k on an e-bike and call it a day
And forget about towing anything!
Put a little diesel generator on a trailer and let the miles roll.
Imagine trying to do any type of distance trip on one of these. Every 80-90 miles you need to stop for 1-2 hours to charge. These are $20k city communters.
Should have both started at 99%
It's call the "Zero", because that's how much power you have left, after first turn it on.
Like your videos. Don't like electric bikes, but still fun to watch thanks
Damon motorcycle has a claimed 200 mile range and has a 20kw battery and can charge to 80 percent in 45 minutes. With DC fast charging That seems more practical honestly if it can have 100 miles of range it seems pretty practical
And after riding 100 miles and charging, the battery will overheat, further reducing range and extending charge time. I think battery tech still needs to improve before electric bikes are viable.
Manufacturer lying is why I will not even consider swapping my petrol courier bike. Nice to see Harley finally getting its act together and becoming more than just a merchandise selling company again.
It's not lying but controlled and based off not speeding and doing burn outs and wheelies.They could of done way passed what they did in the video making the manufacturer an under estimate. Show me yours gets the same mpg at 60mph as 90mph as they did for a good chunk when they covered up the speedometer.I prefer a regular engine because you can just dump some fuel in and go something you can't do if out in the mountains or cover the same long distance with current battery technology.
@@Random-ed2xf Its a 125cc I am lucky to see 55mph, but as you point out I can always quickly refill it. Its a 125cc I have for courier insurance reasons, I pay £1368 (1573.20 US $) per year in insurance...Plus over $2000 in vehicle repair costs/downtime.
Try the Evoke 6061 series next please against livewire
Omg the burnout in the livewire was so much less exciting without a high revving engine sound to go with it😳
You could not get the Zero past 93% because you did not burn $93 in its online store yet.
This is a huge gap in content, love it!
Definitely a great video. Makes me appreciate the Livewire a lot more!
I like electric bike content in almost exactly the same way that some people like serial killer documentaries.
lol, it's pretty horrorshow.
What I think would be most ideal were swappable battery packs with a uniform standard. Imagine going to a gas station and they have a full rack of charged and maintained batteries that you can just pick up and trade with your now depleted battery. And then you just put the battery into your bike and bam you can keep going without having to charge it for hours but instead with a 1 minute swap. Of course this would mean that most gas stations would need huge amounts of charging stations and a uniform standard for battery construction and storage so all bikes regardless of manufacturer are compatible with each other. That idea sounds so nice and is completely unfeasible because standards are whack and everybody wants to do their own thing regardless of how sensible the product would be.
We can't get a sensible common standard even with battery power tools, which really pisses me off. I love the idea of a battery station, but I'm fairly sure that most of the time i would just choose the newest battery in the rack and never swap it until it starts degrading permanently.
If the Zero only accept 93% charge there's something going on with the battery pack.
My 21 litter Moto Guzzi V7 tank laughs while watching this EV battle.
By the sound of it Harley Davidson have finally discovered how to make a decent bike, in comparison to other brands that is.
Now all they need to do is make it look good.
Why not an electric motorcycle with half the HP but twice the range? Seriously you can't tap into 100hp anyway, so why not cut back the engine to get more range. Give me 300km on a charge then I'll start getting excited.
I really like the style of the livewire one and the range is really not bad. Power is enough for everyday riding ! The price should be 18 k no more
I like Electric-Bike content, Why can't the Motorcycle Manufacturers Have a Replacement Battery that You can Carry with You for when You Run-Out of Electricity in Your Battery, Like a Reserve-Tank, That You could Charge and Bring with You, To get You to A Charging Station or Home, Depending where You are.
There are bikes that have that functionality. Check out Elektrek for articles. They're normal for smaller bikes (125cc equivalents) As batteries of this size are incredibly heavy and most consumers do not have the equipment to jack and lift these batteries.
Onyx has it.
I rode Lime Creek Rd back in 86-87 on a Honda 500 Interceptor. Damn that brings back memories...😎😁
Great comparative video. I would like to have seen a charging test on both bikes, roll up to a supercharging station and see how long it takes to go from 5% to 100% charge and do the same at a regular charging station. Also discuss any issues you might have rolling up to a charging station, normally equipped to charge cars.
I’d say expected half of the real world range when buying these motorcycle it’s not good for the battery to drain these till empty.
If electric bikes ever drop in price by 30-40%, then they would be much more of a consideration in my book. Seems like with today's ICE bikes, you can get a WHOLE LOT MORE bang per buck nowadays - more power, speed, range, options, upgrades, tunability, and nothing beats an inline four's beautiful engine note.
Except V-twin.
Yeah, you lost everybody at inline 4. VTwin or Triple, sure. I4? Eh not so much.
I personally love the inline 4 sound and maybe that's just the Japanese fanboy in me who loves tuner cars and turboed 4 cylinder noises. And my i4 motorcycle itches that scratch for me.
@@yurig2530 speaking of twins
Nice name you got there
Maybe they need to make a swap and go style standard battery. So you pull up to a "Battery station" swap batteries and keep going.
20k gets you a brand new GSXSR1000. what a price point lmao
What's the real range of the Streetfighter V4 on a tank ... I heard it was pretty low.
Yammie Noob, or Spite, please review the Honda Transalp 750 both older model and the new one when it comes out.
this video made me start my s1000rr and rev the hellout of it juist for the noise :D
$20k bike that lasts ~100 miles/charge. What. a. joke.
These bikes still don’t exist on Maui. All these years later and the First live wire hasn’t arrived on island yet. Strange thing is maui is perfect for them because there’s no interstates here, it’s all 45-55 mph speed limits and lots of twisty mountain roads. And there’s not a single Tesla charging station here either. It’s nice to see the Livewire isnt $30k anymore but they are still unobtainium here anyway. But to be honest, if I had $22k to spend on a bike I wouldn’t buy a LiveWire. I’d get a naked bike AND a supermoto.
Electricity is expensive in Hawaii, that's why.
A zero fx Riding to Hana would be perfect…. Assuming you had a way to stay and charge in Hana
Isn’t it Zero that’s against Right to Repair?
Dont run Lithium batteries down to 0. Thats how you destroy their life expectancy and capacity. Also never charge them to 100% and leave them sitting around unused for day/weeks this will hurt their life expectancy and capacity. Lithum batteries need a lot of looking after to extend its life. Also, the higher the kw/hr the greater the capacity. You dont want one with low kw/hr with a powerful motor. Seems like Livewire guys did their homework.
I’m glad you mentioned how shitty the mirrors are on the Livewire. One of the few complaints I have. Also the lack of aftermarket products.
I feel both of these are missing out on alot of potential due to NOT having a transmission. How wont these benefit from a 5 or 6 speed transmission? Hell even a simple 2 speed would probably help.
Nope, torque doesn't change with the revs. Absolutely no need for gears.
Great video. Shame you did not manage to get both at least to the same state of charge. Zero has a smaller battery and had lower state of charge at the beginning of the test. I guess if it had a battery about the same size and was charged up to the same state of charge, the results could be around the same. Regarding the torque: As I understood the Zero has a belt, but I could not see what the lifewire has. It would be also nice to mention the battery buffers both motorcycles have. Thanks and good job.
I've personally witnessed a livewire not make a single full 20 minute track session. Screw electric bikes!!
Y’all should try and get your hands on a Damon motorcycle if possible
I know you guys don't like doing dirt videos because ppl don't tend to watch them, but I would love to see how an electric dual sport/OHV performs, like the new Zero FXE.
What are your thoughts on electric unicycles for city / urban use?
Yam! I have a real good video idea for you based on my real life situation. I live in an area with high bike thefts. Idea: test the best anti theft devices/methods and/or the best gps trackers (cost, hideability, subscription, network signal, useability, etc).
Yam just praised a Harley product as a better buy the end times are upon us
the damon bikes are still in testing but might show some promise
Cool bikes but 1. It’s a bit odd to me that Harley didn’t make or also make an electric cruiser 2. Better battery tech or much much better aerodynamics will be needed to hit 200+ miles of range.
I really want an electric bike and appreciate your coverage, since it's telling me I still need to wait. If nothing else I can't see myself spending > $15K for a bike regardless of what it is. Despite my desire for an EV bike, I think my next bike will be a CB650R since yes, I am an old man.
I like EV bike content. Can't wait till the batteries improve enough to make these things practical, like 250 mile highway range.
That's 125 miles one way and back if ur lucky guy.
See I wanted a zero but I hear there is also some issues with zero unable to make repairs and lack of places to get repairs done on the zero.
It is a nice bike but needs the Infrastructure for charging. I have a ninja and I love that bike.
I would consider a zero if they could get more charge stations and more support for zero to have repairs done.
I want to see a freakin jet bike!
Yammi - please do a show on the best available electric bikes by category. Is there an electric adventure bike? What’s your favorite sport, naked and dirt e bikes?
Should definitely get the Ducati Damon or was it Damon Ducati I forget
Imagine a chinese company makes a power bank for these electric motorcycles.
It's a weird niche. The bikes are 2 to 3 times the price but you save some money on gas? Doesn't make much sense to me
So if you ride like an old lady, you might be able to make a half day worth of distance, and you'll have a completely dead bike. That's a no for me.
When it comes to e-bikes it's all about range. Until they can match ice range and recharge quickly they will continue to be regulated to townies. My commute is 68+ miles a day and while both can do that, they don't reach my 250 mile range of my ice bike which comes in handy for trips. I can easily spend 8+ hours in the saddle on a road trip and neither of these bikes could get me there without a lengthy "charge the bike back up" break.
With bikes being as cheap as they are, having both an ICE and electric could/should be an option for a lot of people. Electric bike for commuting and daily errands, an ICE for the longer trips. But none of the bikes tested can really be considered a great fit for commuting.
The battery of the Zero is certainly damaged if it can't be charged to more than 93%. So, it is not serious journalism to compare a defect bike with a bike in perfect order. (Some other things are not equal either, like regenereation.)
I’d like to see how the battery hold ups after 1-2 years of consistent riding. Is it going to be like an iPhone, and the battery just slowly goes downhill? I’m just guessing that won’t be covered under warranty even if you bought it new
Don't have either of these, but I have a Niu N-GT approaching 25k miles in under 3 years. No noticeable drop in range so far. Heard of a BMW C Evolution that after 8 years (don't know the mileage) is also still running as if it came out of the factory yesterday. Battery degradation was a big issue 10 years ago when this technology just got started, but in my experience not much anymore today.
Had the 2020 Livewire for 2 years and finally had to get rid of it. My area just isn’t set up for long trips and was stuck using quick chargers at every chance just to make it out of town for a few hours. Maybe in 5 years the infrastructure will be ready for these.
9:10 had me shook! I thought it was over 🥴
Great review guys
I think in new Zealand u plan around supermarket or recharge top up places, at cost for your trip as well so top up recharge and accommodation / shopping as well 😊😊😊
You can’t ham fist the accelerator and expect to get EPA MPG on a gas bike, why would it be different for electric?
At 9.20 you were close to losing it on the outside!
Thanks for this one. I would have guessed the Zero had more range!
Man these electric bikes still have a very long way to go. At a price point of over $20,000 totally not worth only being able to ride 100 miles or less on a charge. I could see maybe if you only did in town and city riding and nothing more.
At taht point we are talking about a glorified scooter, just sayin...
...and people ain't gonna fork over 20K$ for a scooter.
Thus flase advertising is everywhere.