Dr. Jens Wehner recently made a German video on this, that also includes some new sources, be sure to check it out here: th-cam.com/video/nTQVd_u96hs/w-d-xo.html Corrections: It was the 23rd November 1942 as written, NOT October as narrated. It was "Guards Army" not "Guards Amy". Video on Wehrmacht & Red Army Tactics at Stalingrad here: th-cam.com/video/BEhkkzIenr0/w-d-xo.html If you like in-depth researched videos on Military History, consider supporting me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/mhv/
Chuikov's memoir is a great read. 64th Div, and others, were ground down to nothing in the process of "Bleeding White the Hitlerite". The attritional perspective-easier for the historian to integrate into his or her narrative-discounts the planning of Operations and Operational strategy. As German Generalship declined through attrition, Russian Generalship advanced through experience. Even though I am making that point, I still wonder about how much direct influence the two policy makers had on troops at he front. I am still afraid of Stalin . . . and Hitler . . . and Churchill . . . and Missaloony.
Ok, we got this question out of the way so let's move to another: would attempt of breaking out of encirclement pay off more than just staying in the city? Would they inflict more damage/would the losses that happened, and would happen anyway, be less of a waste?
Can you make a video assesing if Hitler gave Mainstein full control of the army in the east which he did and the front was stabilized. But then left him in control. Could have Mainstein changed the outcome of the war? If you cannot make a video can you please give your oppinion? Thank you.
Brilliant ! This video helps explain a lot. Many thanks ! I wonder what did the Germans also find as obstacles in the eastern front (Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev...etc)
One of my grandfathers was a combat engineer. He and his unit only survived Stalingrad because of his commanding officer. When the encirclement was about to get completely closed, this man apparently decided that he loved life and his men more then the Führer. There was only one crammed road out of the encirclement left and for most cars there was no getting through, except for trucks with wounded, so my grandfathers commanding officer 'borrowed' some trucks and ordered his little convoy to stay directly behind one of the last convoys with wounded soldiers that made it out of the cauldron. Apparently the situation was a complete mess and the 6th Army was in a state of dissolution, so no one even really asked, not even after they got out. Sure, it was clear that this unit of combat engineers was definitely _not_ where it was supposed to be, but then again this officer continued to refer to orders never given by brass that was dead, so no one could prove him wrong and since combat engineers were quite a rare commodity for the Wehrmacht at this time, they got away with this. Unfortunately, my grandfathers unit got ordered back from Russia and was then transferred to the Normandy, where my grandfather got captured by the Allies. After a not too long time as prisoner of war of the Allies, he was send home. Unfortunately, the russians then dragged him out of his train, which is how he became a prisoner of war of the russians, a year or so after the war was over.
@@yugiohguy And your grandfather was an idiot who clearly passed this specific set of genes to later generations quite successfully. We all have our cross to bear, haven't we? :)
@@looinrims While most the bigwigs just got away, like so often. From 100.000 german soldiers captured at Stalingrad, only a couple of thousand ever returned. While Paulus, that goddamn pig who _caused_ the misery of his soldiers in the first place by having no spine at all, returned to East-Germany soon after the war and was happy to offer his services to the socialist dictatorship. Isn't it fun.
@@Furzkampfbomber I detest the Russians on just about everything, but more subjectively I could never blame them for the treatment of German POWs, considering what the reverse situation looked like But yeah, it’s always the top guys who get off scot free, while the lower guys are the ones who take the beating
@Alex because some one says nazi scum dosent mean they are communists, of course, the same could be said for the person you replied because they don't know if that member of family member was a nazi.
There are some places which were stigmatized during world war. Auschwitz, Dresden, Stalingrad. That places stand for all terrors and fears that war and hate can bring to the people up to our days.
Given what we know about what happened to POWs on the Eastern Front (from both sides), if I was in the 6th Army, I would have preferred the breakout, whatever the odds.
I thought the same about WWII in general. My grandfather has seen horrors beyond your imagination, but still I would have preferred to test my luck in combat rather than hide from constant bombing raids, starve and have to fear torture and rape...
So you have 2 options: 1. Surrender and hope you, as exhausted soldier, won't freeze to death on your way to Gulag. 2. Break out as exhausted soldier, fight the Soviet and hope you don't freeze to death or die by Soviet hand. So both options offers you freezing to death only 2nd one gives you chances of being killed in combat. So your chances for survival are higher if you surrender no matter how brutal the POW treatment is. They were in shit and maybe you would like to break out but I don't think many of them cared at that point. There is a saying the dead ones are lucky because they don't suffer anymore.
My father was there with the Hungarian army, not as a combative soldier as a forced slave labor... According to him about 800 laborers who when there less than a dozen survived. . He survived because exchanged his labor clothing with a dead Hungarian officer. . As he was walking the ice road truck came along, next thing he remembers being in a hospital in Budapest. . Hated Hungarians with a passion, accordingly wishes all would've been killed by the Russians. .
What actual grand scale advantage would such a breakout deliver? Short answer is "none". The defensive stance kept a large chunk of Soviet manpower and materiel committed. The ability to hold that chunk at Bay required the entirety of the German manpower available. The losses of materiel by the Germans, the inevitable over run by the Soviets, and the depletion of the manpower that did manage to breakout, and the Haggard condition any successful units would have arrived to German lines in would, strategically, add up to the same losses as their starving to death, only sooner. A breakout had an imbalance that favored the Soviets far more than the Germans. That's why the status quo was favored, it bought more time before the inevitable happened, and had a greater chance of turn around of Fortune if something miraculous occurred. A miracle was their only chance.
No. an immidiate breakout would be a stupid idea but attacking when Mainstein"s troops tried to relief the army was a good idea. The losses during the breakout would be in the tens of thousands, but half of the german forces could have been escaped and then used against the soviets again.
Even if the sixth army went out of Stalingrad somehow, even if the Red Army give tham a free pass in November, this wouldn't have a significant impact on the war. The thing which matter is the ultimate failure of the operation Case Blue, which would happen with or without the Battle of Stalingrad.
Yeah I guess. It was just around 100k soldiers that was stuck in Stalingrad. Those extra 100k soldiers wouldn't be much help in the long run when the soviet would outnumber the german army in the millions.
@Hazzmati Agree. In the woke of the operation Barbarossa the Axis forces had about one million soldiers more than the Red Army on the Eastern Front. In November 1942. the Red Army had about 2.5 million soldiers more than the Axis forces on the Eastern Front. Initial success of the operation Case Blue was due to the Axis' concentration of forces in one sector of the front and because the Red Army expected another Wehrmacht's thrust toward Moscow. It was just a matter of time when the Axis lines will start to crumble and collapse.
The Germans and Soviets werent actually in a "one verses a million" situation, the soviets were bleed severly in the war and at many times, they were tied in manpower. 100k men is a very large amount, as its enough to hold a large area. What would be the issue, is that once they got out, they'd have a hard time establishing a defense, but they could have at least helped to stabelize the front in the region a wee bit. The 6th army falling was a major 'buttfuck' in the German lines, as it was afterall an army. But tbh the german industrial and fuel situation was more of an issue. They were hand crafting tanks up untill 1943 if i recall, and still had a major issue with fuel supplies. If the 6th army would have broken out, they might have held some ground or aided in holding the front one way or the other, but they wouldnt be able to push past stalingrad, or around it. And that was what Case Blue needed, secure oil fields to keep the German war machine operating. And that war machine was thirsty.
@pingun96 In the last paragraph you are pretty much saying 'even if the sixth army broken out that wouldn't have a significant impact on the war', something which is the main thesis in my comment. Nevertheless, by November of 1942 the Red Army had about 2.5 million soldiers more than the Axis and far more firepower. With the battle of Stalingrad or not, with the Case Blue or not, with the Lend-Lease or not, by the Spring of 1942 the Wehrmacht is doomed on the Eastern Front. In the Operation Barbarossa the Wehrmacht failed to knock out the USSR out of war, before the USSR start to mobilize reserves and consolidate industries in the rear. After that failure the Wehrmacht is doomed on the Eastern Front. The battle of Smolensk is probably the most critical point in the war. After this battle the Wehrmacht will still have huge successes, but the USSR already establish the platform for the attrition which, in the long run, lead the Wehrmacht into defeat.
"with the Lend-Lease or not". I agree with most you wrote, but I am not sure if this would be the case without the allied supplies. Could the soviets supply their armies and feed their citizens without the trucks and the food which the allies were sending?
@transylvanian: What a load of crap. The soviets even worked their own citizens to death in gulags. Why on earth would they treat enemy troops any better?
@transylvanian: Sounds to me like you're thw victim of pro-soviet propaganda. It's obvious youre pining back for the days of "the glory of the soviet union" more than anything. A pinko commie in other words.
@transylvanian In western penal labour systems, convicts were not purposefully worked to death or put through starvation on purpose like the barbaric soviets did. People also weren't sent to penal labour for the mere act of disagreeing with the ruling communist party, like the vile, disugsting soviets did. What's next? Are you gonna tell me that the Holodomor was just "an accident"?
@transylvanian: Ever heard about the Katyn Massacre? The victims in that were not nazi germans, but polish officers and soldiers. Are you gonna claim that poles would defend or buy into a nazi narrative just because they hate the soviet union?
I would be interested to know how many Soviet formations were tied down encircling Stalingrad that would have been freed up to join the main front of there had been a breakout. In other words was it more beneficial for the Germans that the pocket held to tie down Soviet assets or would it have been more beneficial to alleviate the beleaguered German supply chain from supplying the pocket and potentially recovering a part of the manpower of the 6th army for future operations.
@@arjunvardhan8134 "More than a 100 formations" Why not 200? "After the front, which had come to chaotic movement as a result of the Russian breakthrough, finally stabilized, the intelligence department of the headquarters of our corps gradually managed to get a more or less complete picture of the situation from the enemy. Now, when the entire 6th Army was concentrated in a relatively small area inside the ring, we tried to identify and strike on the cards all enemy strike formations operating against the 6th Army. Only large *Russian formations here at first numbered about 60* - these were mainly rifle divisions and tank brigades, combined into seven armies. To this should be added some of the compounds in reserve, whose presence was not easy to detect. The main forces of the enemy, and above all his artillery, were concentrated in the western sector of the ring, which was defended by parts of our corps. We calculated that enemy formations that surrounded us with a steel ring possess at least threefold numerical superiority and have an awesome amount of heavy weaponry. Our army, however, the number of which before the entourage was about 330 thousand people, now after the losses suffered as a result of the Russian breakthrough, according to our data, there were about 280 thousand people, including Romanians, as well as some units that were not previously part of the army, but trapped with us in the pot. Among the surrounded were representatives of absolutely all German lands (one of the army corps was formed in Vienna). All of them were henceforth bound by one unkind fate. They were addressed the words of the order, promised salvation: “Hold on! The Fuhrer will rescue you! ” Wieder I. "The Catastrophe on the Volga" This Wieder data is not far from the truth. By that time, not three, but two fronts acted against the encircled ones, as the Southwestern acted on the outer ring of the encirclement, and the 51st Army of the Stalingrad Front acted here. On November 27, up to 10 rifle divisions, one tank division and three cavalry corps acted on the external front of the encirclement. The 62, 64, 57th armies of the Stalingrad Front and the 65th, 66th, 21st and 24th armies of the Don Front were active on the inner ring. It should be borne in mind here that they all suffered losses, especially the army of the Stalingrad Front, the composition of each of them, as Wieder himself points out, is not exceeded the composition of the German army corps, and for the most part was inferior to it. Therefore, the final conclusion about the threefold superiority of the Russians is an exaggeration. By December 1, the Stalingrad direction as a whole had the following ratio: Soviet divisions - 68.5, German - 48 (ratio 1.45: 1); 854,776 from the Soviet side, 846,000 from the German side (1: 1); soviet tanks - 797, German - 770 (1: 1); Artillery and aviation ratio was about the same. Triple pre-rise Soviet the side had only large-caliber mortars. The enemy, however, had a qualitative superiority in the field artillery. *Directly against the encircled forces there were 43.5 Soviet divisions* consisting of 479,672 men (1.45: 1 ratio); 465 tanks against 340 (1.3: 1); Cannons and mortars 8491 against 5230 (1.6: 1).
Several authors on the topic have written that at any given moment after December 7, 1941, at least two-thirds of Wehrmacht soldiers were on the Eastern front.
Not sure that I'm understanding the criticism of Manstein by the "semi-official history" other than on humanitarian grounds. It sounds as though leaving the 6th Army to its fate was the more rational decision (at least in November and December) than attempting a breakout. The chances of a breakout succeeding seem very low, and even if it succeeded, the survivors would not bear much resemblance to an organized fighting force, and the German front line they reached would have still been a horribly improvised patchwork that STAVKA could easily punch through. Perhaps Army Group A in the Caucasus would have been destroyed along with the forces around Stalingrad. For once, blaming Hitler seems to be appropriate, but only after mid-December, when the German front lines further west had stabilized and the relief attempt had clearly failed. Paulus and his men should have been allowed to surrender, since their fate was totally sealed and any further resistance was just prolonging their suffering.
Well, he assumed the Sixth Army could hold out and this was not the case. If he argued, well, we need to sacrifice them in order to hold the lines elsewhere, it would have been a different matter.
Military History Visualized one possibol faktor you did not mention in this video: could the forces from the main german line attack to help the boket to break out or where they not suited for offensive operation? let's say they had pusht in from the outher side 1/4 of the way suddenly the chance of a breaktrow would be much higger because 1: less distance to cross for the forces in and around stalingrad 2: less time for the soviets to react, because less distance to cross quiet obvious 3: i would belive that the longer they would attack the weaker the units would get because they already have supply problem and the longer they fight the more ammunition, fuel and food they lose. (talking about the forces in the poket)
Eevee there were not sufficient forces available for a "break-in" attack. The German front lines were a hodge podge of thrown together unattached units.
First of all, very good video. But some parts of 6th Army manage to breakout from Stalingrad. There were two 7th and 6th Lithuanian Auxiliary Police Battalions which were lead by major Jonas Semaška. Which got permission from 6th Army HQ to retreat with the rest of his men separately from the main forces. And they managed to breakthrough from "Stalingrad Pocket". 400 Lithuanian soldiers reached Lithuania out of more than 700. As a side note these men were conscripted to German army against there will. Only source of this story is in Lithuanian language in book called ''Priesaika, Jonas Semaška-Liepa ir bendražygiai''. Also I made short video about it in English.
There is a big difference between 400 men breaking out and 200,000. While I do not know the story I will make the assumption that those Lithuanians did not in fact 'break' out, but for the most part 'infiltrated' out, in other words relied on stealth more than combat power to affect their withdrawal. You simply cannot do that with 200,000 men, especially considering so many of them were in effective direct contact with the enemy, thus any withdrawal would have been immediately noticed. I would not be surprised to hear similar stories of small numbers of men being able to extricate themselves from the Stalingrad pocket, but I will make a bet that pretty much all of those that managed it successfully did so by relying on stealth rather than combat/
@@alganhar1 Thank you for your response. To start with, I was not talking about possibility of major breakout of 6th army. It was Unthinkable, and I completely agree with information in this video. However, I just wanted to tell that history is not just black and white. Secondly, you made a logical assumption that was mostly stealthy sneak out from Stalingrad rather than breakout. Well at least from my source it seems that there was fierce fighting involved. Sometimes even hand to hand combat. Also, there is information about that battalions got into artillery fire in some occasions. So, combat was real. You can see that from numbers. Around 700 started and approximately 400 survived. Of course, stealth tactics were used because units moved through swamps and forests avoiding strong points but losses were still high. Another piece of information is that some of battalion’s men got military awards. In my opinion, this should prove that if even Germans consider award worth achievement it sure seems like a quite big accomplishment.
Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer and said that they would have relied *mostly* on stealth, fighting only when it was absolutely neccessary. My mistake. An interesting story however, one I intend to look up. I have heard of a few scattered groups escaping Stalingrad, but they would have numbered a few thousand at best if you add them all up. Even the best encirclement will have enough small gaps that will allow small, determined, and skilled groups to escape.
@@echoofhistory7583 I think you just wanted to bring an anecdote to the table - there's nothing wrong with that but you don't need to put on airs about it.
Luca Pinne ... totally a supply and demand issue. What's worse, is that upper command new they didn't have resources to aide the breakthrough forces...and YET they sent them anyway. Waist! Waist! Waist! Of men and supplies.
15:51"Unless you have the reaction time of a stone." A quote I am going to be using from now on, thanks. And a fantastic and informative video as always.
Wasn't the continued German resistance in Stalingrad necessary to keep the Soviets tied up in order that the failed German offensive in the South could retreat from the Caucasas? I don't know its true but I've read this being the reason that Hitler demanded Paulus stay put in Stalingrad. In other words sacrificing the 6th army to buy time for the Southern army.
That is true. The 6th army tied down a massive amount of Soviet troops that could have otherwise been used to trap the retreating army group B coming up from the south. Sixth Army was aware of this and they knew they were being sacrificed.
In fact, I believe that 7 Soviet armies (equivalent to 7 Western corps in strength) under Rokossovsky's Don Front were allocated to encircle and destroy Paulus' 6th Army. If there were no Stalingrad pocket, then Don Front would have been sent westward and quite possibly collapsed the southern half of the German front in which Manstein would not have been able to do much.
The Soviets demanded a surrender on Jan 9, 1943. This would've entrapped many more Germans in the Caucasus creating a "super Stalingrad". The delay in surrendering allowed von Manstein to remove those troops.
Who needs high defensive walls, when your cities and factories are surrounded by huge stretches of muddy land for an invasion force to exhaust themselves on the road to their objectives? All you need to do is set up artillery and keep the QRF on stand-by.
My father was there with the Hungarian army, not as a combative soldier, as a forced slave labor... According to him about 800 laborers who where rounded up on the streets in summer clothes less than a dozen survived. . Some of those men where concert musicians even a olympic quality weightlifting champions.. He survived because exchanged his clothing with a frozen Hungarian officer found in a field as he was walking on some ice road, truck came along, next thing he remembers being in a hospital in Budapest, after recovering somewhat he snuck out before they discovered who he really was Hates Hungarians with a passion, accordingly to his vengeance all should've been killed by the Russians. His hands have Frost bites all over... Yes it's true. ..takin a crappie and never get up again. . Happy birthday Dad.. October 12..1911-1994
Your videos are very grounding. I used to criticize a lot of Hitler's military decisions, but you highlight very realistically the Wehrmacht's limitations almost making me agree with those decisions. Great research, congratulations!
I see some questions on things not directly related to the video. If you support MHV through Patreon, you can get those questions answered via Q&A videos. If you are very interested in learning more about military history, support the channel more and get Discord access. The MHV Discord channel has a good community of helpful people including MHV!
Those were good books. I listened to the audio versions of both. Also Tigers in the Mud. How the described the Eastern front was insane, couldn't even imagine something like that, and various other "Eastern Front" books.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Es fällt mir schwer die negativen Eigenheiten meiner Dozenten aufzuzählen. Aber bei dir erkenne ich immer ein Struktur der ich sehr gut folgen kann.
lol, danke, ja, Struktur ist sehr wichtig und darauf lege ich auch großen Wert. Jedes meiner Skripte hat klare Unterteilungen, in diesem Fall hab ich 2 Ebenen benutzt, selten gibt es drei. Hier findest du nen Screenshot zur Struktur des Skripts: twitter.com/MilHiVisualized/status/1049740609517424640
I watched a documentary on Stalingrad and when the order came for the Germans to remain in Stalingrad, they (the Germans) couldn't believe it. They desperately wanted to break out and they were ready and willing to do it. Whether it was possible was another matter. Great video BTW. You obviously did your research.
Note that Stalingrad was an anomaly, even for the Red Army itself. The Red Army's own Field Regulations and reality before Stalingrad dictated that it should defend cities by digging defensive belts OUTSIDE the city proper. Even in long, drawn out affairs like Sevastopol or Leningrad, the Red Army defended outside the city proper. At Sevastopol, Manstein got some very heavy mortars which helped reducing the fortification substantially. Paulus did not have the same amount of artillery. Furthermore, according to Glantz, several Soviet counterattacks and counterstrokes on Paulus' way to Stalingrad meant that a lot his Panzer divisions were tied up protecting his flanks instead of rolling into the city. He was short on infantry anyway since they had to scrape together even combat engineers to serve as infantry to capture the city. Regiments became battalion-sized, battalions became companies, and companies down to squad-size. Infantry alone or tanks alone can not take any build up area without heavy casualties. Mogadishu proved that light infantry without mechanised armors resistant to bullets would be heavily mauled. They had somewhat bulletproofed Humvees; but the bullet proof glass are not "that" durable, and the tires are easily punctured by the smallest bullet or shell fragments on the ground. Tanks and armoured vehicles without dismounted infantry also suffer heavily in urban fighting, ala Grozny. The Army suffered heavily, too, since they could not ferry much tanks across the Volga and had to make do with mostly infantry. Part of the reason why the Army Group South was so weak and had inadequate replacement was the reinforcement had to be sent to Army Group Centre, who were enduring relentless Soviet attacks. The attacks were not that successful, but it definitely bled the Army Group Centre white. The sister operation to Operation Uranus, Operation Mars, had equal priority and allocation of men and material. However, it ran straight into some very good German divisions and stalled. Zhukov called it, in his memoirs, a diversionary attack. Glantz judged it as: if it were a diversionary attack, it was one of the most costly one. Uranus was a lot more successful since it managed to slam into the weaker satellite troops who were inadequately armed and armoured. It also explained why Manstein could not get anymore troops from elsewhere. I believe he demanded "all the forces in South Russia" for a decisive battle; then Hitler can get all the oil he wants after that. In hindsight, Army Group A had already stalled at Ordzhonikidze. Its lead Panzer Division (23rd) was stopped and surrounded by 2 Soviet Rifle Corps, which between them had only around 10000 men or so. The 23rd Panzer managed to break out but it was mostly the soldiers: they had to leave the vehicles behind. Army Group A simply did not have enough fuel, vehicles, or strength to make the long journey back to Manstein and break Paulus out of Stalingrad. That does not even mention the Red Army who would have exploited the retreat to the full.
Ive always felt that the sheer motivation of "hey we might live" would push them out with crazy casualties. Maybe even motivating the outside force alittle more to try and save there comrades as well, but those are things that can't be predicted. Just feel that the choice of fight or die is a huge motivation to put your head down and go no matter what.
Could you do a video on german fuel production comparet with the other powers and then do a breakdown on german fuel distribution between her allies, navy and different fronts. It would also be great if you could do a general breakdown of german resources and there they were investet steel, workforce, capital and so on. A comparison in soft area production like trucks, radio, ammunition would also be great since most only look at tanks,ships, guns and so on. It would also be interesting to look at german AA, antitank guns and artilleri production both total and the ratio of AA to the other two relative to the other powers.
can yes, will unlikely. Just for the German side I would need to read around 1000 pages, for the others I would have to find proper books, what you are asking for is basically something along a phd or even more.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Could you please do a video on german antiaircraftgun production both total and ratio compered to artilleri and antitankguns relative to the other powers or a video on german fuel production and distribution(germany seem to have a lot of diesel and soviet fuel production look very low) please conside my request it has been very defficult to find anything and the numbers I did finf look odd thank you.
I must say that when you say that a breakout might still have been possible (albeit difficult), the decision to just leave the army to its fate cannot be defended either on a military, humanitarian or from a morale point of view. A chance of recovering some > 100% chance of losing all of them. Even if the soldiers could not see the future, they probably had a good hunch that their chances of suriving as a Soviet POW were grim (as would indeed be shown to be the case). They would have been quite ready to make great sacrifices in a push to have a chance at a breakout. The generals of the time seemed to think that it would have been possible. Consider that even if Soviet strenght was theoretically hugely superior in the Stalingrad area as a whole, they would have had to move an absolutely enormous amout of men, weapons and supplies locally in order to turn around the attacking troops being conducted west of Stalingrad and bring all of that to bear on the sallying Germans within the space of 3 days. None of that excuses, ofc, that Germany didn't start the withdrawal _before_ encirclement was complete. They had pragmatically conceided defeat before when an attack turned out to not work they way they wanted, and this should not have been different. The string of defeats on the flanks and the time that had passed since Germany more or less showed its hand in that area (mid summer 1942) should have cued them into the idea that the Soviet counterattacks meant business.
But what would have happen if the breakout would fail and Stalingrad was taken by the Soviets much earlier? Maybe the 6th army bought just enough time for the Axis to stabilize the front, so the Soviets couldn't attack the lines again and encircle Army group A.
Don't russian people also pronounce it the same? St or Sp are usually pronounced sh-t or sh-p in german (some folk in the north of germany refuse to do so, but the rest does) As long as theese letter don't belong to seperate words which are combined into one (like in Hausputz)
SS General "papa" Hausser disobey Hitler's explicit orders withdrew his troops from ukrain "Kharkov" to avoid encirclement. Hitler not punished him for this disobey. Also Rommel, when he was outnumbered in Egypt, disobeying direct order by Hitler, to stand firm and “not to yield even a yard of ground”. Rommel disobeyed the order and sound the alarm for retreat. He also wasn't punished .
Hitler did not consider North Africa to be an important front. Rommel was not getting additional men and tanks. Rommel pitted Mussolini and Hitler against each other just so he could attack the British. The Italian navy was low on fuel, so they didn't help with transporting and protecting supplies. Hitler was not fond of Manstein. Manstein gambled on a strategic withdrawal to recapture Kharkov which was successful. The same Manstein that could have ordered Paulus to break out of Stalingrad.... only to refuse and then make a half-hearted effort. Manstein blamed everyone for his own failures.
In actuality Hitler declined a breakout because he was re assured by his commanders the city could hold and the encirclement lifted. We can see multiple examples of where hitlers stand and fight orders not only helped for example, in the battle of moscow but would have proved helpful in other cirumstances, thus I believe Hitler is not given due credit, even though he made mistakes his commanders often supported is decisions.
He was assured by Göring that the Luftwaffe could supply the city, and both believing Göring or coming to any independent conclusion that the Luftwaffe could have met the supply needs of the 6th Army with transport planes was stupid. It had been done before at Demyansk but on a much smaller scale and the situation had changed dramatically by Stalingrad in regards to the Luftwaffe-Soviet Air Force power gap. The Soviets also had anti-air guns all around Stalingrad which guaranteed a high rate of attrition. The stand and fight order worked for Moscow but later on it was just done everywhere. So-called "fortress cities" in 1945 like Breslau just abandoned more troops behind the lines and left the way to Berlin more easily open. He also refused to evacuate the Kurland pocket, Crete or Norway when it was clear those troops were needed more in Germany. So Hitler was not a smart commander and no one should be under any illusion he was.
nein, hitler denied breakout because he refused to give up ground that had been taken. He had the foreknowledge that any loss of ground would equate to defeat and would turn the tide. He lied directly to the troops in promising he could get them out when there was no chance or indication that this was reality. He was told multiple times that they could not provide enough calories and fuel through the air drop and that there were not forces to breakthrough from the south. Also the Russians had a secondary offensive going on as Manstein came to the rescue. If you read a scholarly work you would realize that the german leadership was obsessed with creating the appearance of being control while hedging bets and preparing for defeats. You, and many on this board have more positive feelings about Hitler than his own troops had...they knew he was a politician who promised things he couldn't fulfill and they would be sacrificed in order for him to save face. They didn't care to live in russia, they just wanted to go home to their children and families. They used to jokingly call him "the greatest warlord in history" because they knew he took credit for their successes.
The 6th army should never have entered stalingrad. And Army group South should have had more support. The push to Moscow was pointless and pulled attention from the real goal of invading. Resources, the whole reason they were there was for Ukrainian Grain and Caucasian Oil
Aye. But like Napoleon, Hitler seemed to believe that taking an enemy capital was somehow important. But unless the capital is also a main producer of oil, tanks and planes, taking it is meaningless.
@@ignacejespers8201: I would argue that capturing and securing the Caucasus oil fields was not only NOT pointless, but absolutely necessary for the german war effort to continue the war. So saying that all of Operation Barbarossa was meaningless isn't entirely true. That said, too much emphasis was placed by Hitler and the german high command on capturing strategically irrelevant cities like Stalingrad. All that manpower and resources would've been better used in capturing the oil fields and get them running to serve the german war effort rather than the soviet war effort.
Ieuan Hunt Moscow was a massive railway center. Look at any railroad map and you’ll see Moscow is the hub of Eastern Europe. This would have helped to German supply lines, along with Moscow falling, the morale boost to the Germans would be immense and would severely hurt soviet troop management and be a damaging PR situation. Moscow was not pointless. It was symbolic and a situational bonus to the invading force.
Where else, but a tank, can five men effectively use a 5cm gun, two or three MGs, and stay behind bullet-proof armor all the while? Nobody EVER says that Germany had enough tanks to absorb converting a bunch into infanterie halbgruppen. Further, armor is the wrong tool for any job in towns and other built up areas. Like Leningrad, the idea was to reduce fortifications through artillery and air close support. There was siege artillery available, but planes could be transferred between fronts (and rear areas) much more quickly than giant cannon and howitzers.
11:00 Another advantage for Soviet troops within urban combat were the guns used, such as the PPSH41, a SMG with an amazing firerate for CQB and a 70 drum mag, while Paulus's army mostly had MP40s, which while being reliable, was not suited for cold weather (unlike the PPSH series), and had a rather slow firerate.
I loved that wolf in sheep image. Also you missed an important opportunity to use your classic pony instead of a horse while talking about evacuated horses.
It is necessary to point out that whatever force was fortunate enough in successfully escaping the encirclement at Stalingrad would do so without most of its heavy equipment/tanks/artillery/etc... and after suffering incredible casualties during such escape. Such a decimated force would need to be shipped back to Germany for reorganization and re-equipment and would not be able to participate in meaningful defensive operations against the Soviet "Little Saturn" operation (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Little_Saturn). Essentially, after the successful encirclement at Stalingrad, Case Blue was doomed no matter how you look at it.
My great uncle was a flying instructor who died in Yugoslavia in 1943. In late 1942 early 1943 he had been moved to assist in the airlift. Not sure if he flew but he certainly assisted with "blind flying" teaching at night or cloud/ poor visability...
Let me tell you, honorable sir, no channel in this world had ever taught me so much about the Second World War, your videos helped me understand every aspect and details including the tactics, the logistics and how the war is not as simple as the war games I played on Steam. Going through many paradigm shifts, I finally know the truth behind the many decisions that the generals made, I thought they were fools that refuse to go with the obvious "solutions", but now you have led me out of my blind and naive mind, you have opened my mind. I thank you for all that you have done to educate others!
Thanks for a great video. I once attended a lecture given by a military historian who was trying to explain the post WW2 psyche of the Soviets and the roots of the Cold War. I wish I could remember his name. His main point was that at Stalingrad the Russians fought soldiers from over 20 different nationalities. Whilst the Germans were most numerous there were armies from Romania, Croatia, Hungary and Italy and smaller units from Belgium, the Baltic states, Norway, Denmark and if I remember rightly, from “liberated” parts of the USSR, such as the Ukraine. There were also units made from Russian POWs. Some of these took really heavy losses, for example the Hungarian Army had 80,000 killed. His point was that, from the USSR’s viewpoint, Stalingrad was viewed as not just a fight with the Germans, but a fight against most of Europe. So post war the Soviets “ occupied” Hungary, Poland, Romania and the Baltic states partly to make sure they wouldn’t have to fight them again. And the effect on the “psyche” was for the USSR to think of itself alone against the rest of the world, which contributed to the Cold War, and is still the attitude of many Russians today. I’m sure you are very busy but if you have the time I would welcome a video on the battle of Budapest in 1944. It’s not widely known about but the Red Army didn’t have things its own way there and Stalins plan to knock Hungary out of the war failed. However Hitler unwisely diverted reserves to Hungary which hastened the fall of Berlin. Or so the conventional view goes.
That might well have been how things were seen from the Soviet standpoint, indeed. Of course it was also an utterly "created" narrative on their part, given their history with various nations and groups within that force involved against them. So while it was how they saw things from their point of view, it certainly wasn't "true", aside from "a certain point of view".
Celebmacil But it was true. The facts are that at Stalingrad, the Red Army alone faced the Germans, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians and Croatians as well as minor units from other countries.
Oh, I'm aware. I'm just stating the mindset of "having to fight them again" as if they were somehow an innocent and unfairly aggrieved party in many of the cases is an... interesting... view to take for the Soviets (or Russians), in context of what they'd been doing to some of those nations for centuries, or even as recently as two years previously, or what they then went on to do once more in the next two to twenty and more years. It's like repeatedly kicking the crap out of all the neighborhood dogs for a decade and then being amazed that they come hunt you down and gang up on you, and feeling like "well, I guess I'd better REALLY kick the crap out of them this time so I don't have to kick the crap out of them again!".
"As so often there are many arguments that can be made, yet a German breakout at Stalingrad was definitely not easy, nor was it without risk: yet at least it would've given the men a fighting chance instead of starving to death." Absolutely brilliant summation! The MHV's allusion to FM Manstein is indicative. According to Ziemke & Bauer, 'Moscow to Stalingrad (Decision in the East) NY 1988 page 475: on 24th Nov 42 FM Manstein reported to O.K.H that "he could not concur at present with Army Group B’s stand in favour of breakout.” However, by 19th December he had changed his mind and informed Hitler that because LVII Pz Corps probably could not achieve contact with 6th Army, he believed the only answer was to order it to break out. He maintained that this would, at least, save most of the troops and whatever equipment could still be moved. To Paulus, he sent advanced notice of a breakout order, but the message ended that 6th Army was merely to get ready but not start until ordered. Hitler, encouraged by LVII Pz Corp's recent success, refused to approve. Instead he ordered Pz GrD Viking from Army Group A to 4th Pz Army and insisted that 6th Army was to hold out until firm contact was established, so that a complete, orderly withdrawal could be accomplished. Note Hitler was ready to evacuate Stalingrad on 19th Dec but wanted to play 'safe': fatal in this fluid situation.
This begs the question, why was an army (the 6th) that was so unfit for offensive operations still trying to push forward? Was the lure of Stalingrad so bright that the Wehrmacht ignored the condition of its forces and kept going forward? Why were the offensive forces so low on materials (assume it’s the length of the logistics train). Why was German intelligence not more aware of the disparity of forces facing it?
I am in no way and expert on this topic but as stated in this video, the Germans felt perhaps not "superior" but felt the Soviets were incapable of mounting real determined resistance against them, secondly IIRC German intelligence on the Eastern front was bad in general. The Germans were also firm believers in bewegunskrieg, war of movement, and the initial Fall Blau plan wanted to take Stalingrad to cut off the Soviets from the Volga and Caspian. Suffice it to say, Fall Ball was not a good plan and heavily overstretched limited German resources.
It's always great fun to try, like with Market Garden. Paulus was known to be a delayer from his Kriegakademie wargaming, that was noted about his style. That's why in books like Hitler's Generals they style him as a cunctator. Meyer boasting that he could supply the entire Sixth and barely managing 10% of the minimum needed was kind of understandably demoralising for Paulus as much as being left there to just inconvenience the enemy, something we all do all the time in gaming, but the Stalingrad story tells us how that feels and should be instructive. I agree with your Clausewitzian argument of "friction", though. Like with the logistics, it's hard to tell what lesson to draw from this, like with the unique logistical problems to that front that don't seem to apply in Europe or North America, for example.
Ich cannot even believe people talk about a Breakout!!! That wasnt the point... OKH absolutely didn't want a breakout. They needed those men to stay put there. Sure, for civility they thought about it and discussed it but they Knew it was of Strategic importance for the 6th army to remain in Stalingrad. 6th army was sacrificed to hold the front and free up the Caucasus Area. So no, a breakout wasnt even really considered, expect maybe by Paulus. Poor Paulus always getting the blame. I dont agree with that either. Anyways they were doomed from the Start logistically Speaking.
@@CarlosSempereChen i think it is pretty clear from retrospect that they were there in Stalingrad to keep the Caucasus safe, for it oil resources. They didnt even manage to do that. If they wanted they could've probably broke out in November... But that would've caused a collapse of the southern front... Where the oil was. It just turned out to be the most horrific battle in all of german history, possibly world history. THe suffering on all sides was insurmountable, indescribably horrific and brutal. I dont blame Paulus, he had his orders and he followed them like a good general would. He wasn't weak like people described, i would say hes strong for what he did and went through. I think he was a smart highly intelligent man in a bad, no way of winning the battle situation. Hopefully people will have more respect for him in the future and hopefully historians will agree that a breakout wasnt even on the table... 6 armee was to hold the line.
Michel van Dijk and sacrificed at a high cost too. Man power is more valuable than technological advancement. Soviets realized this more than the Germans did. Wehrmacht was highly trained, highly advanced. They had 20 years of post ww1 to study their loss and they did and learned from their mistakes more than any other Nation
The main thing people fail to understand, at least among those with whom I debate military history, is that even had the 6th and 4th Pz broken out, the entire southern sector of the Eastern Front would have collapsed in short order. The encirclement was just tying down too many Soviet formations, and were they all suddenly freed, the Germans would have been faced with a disparity of forces in the southern sector for which they were not prepared. It is debatable I suppose, since those forces were eventually freed, but at a later date, giving the Germans more time. Personally I think a breakout could have succeeded relatively easy early on, given that the encirclement was very loose behind the German positions. The later they waited, the less chance they had of success, and the more equipment they would have to abandon.
Thing is, those units were freed up in rather short order, and the Voronyez front absolutely shattered armygroup south. If the Soviet counteroffensive came during the summer, the axis might have even faired better considering a big part of their weakness was the low motorization of theirtransport capacity was very ineffective in the winter.
Thank you! What you have demonstrated was that the decision to not try to break out was under the circumstances at the time and with the knowledge they had a reasonable decision.
That is very much the case, in fact securing Stalingrad was originally a secondary objective. Hitler became obsessed in securing the city for propaganda purposes and forced his generals to divert valuable units that were supposed to secure the Caucasus and it's oil fields, which was the main reason why Fall Blau began in the first place.
One aspect is missing. A breakout would have put up the moral of the German troop drastically. If you would have told the soldiers: "We prepare to get out of this winter hell immediately. Fight as hard as you can to get back home or we all will die here." They could have done the impossible.
Case Blue was quite a silly undertaking and overly ambitious. If you ask me it was a logistical nightmare run on a shoe string, as your great video shows. Looking at Stalingrad, the failure to assemble enough anti-freeze material in October 1942 shows how absurd the logistical situation was. The Germans should have hit Moscow in the summer of 1942.Firstly, Army Group Centre had ,by 1942, a stable logistical frame work including several double gauged rail lines. Secondly, the Wehrmacht was in a way better position qualitatively vis-a-vis its Red Army counterpart. Thirdly, even though the Moscow region was well fortified, this advantage would have been nullified by the Wehrmachts' qualitative advantage; take Kursk for instance, at Kursk the Wehrmacht inflicted a casualty ratio of of more than 4:1 on the Red Army and that was against the much better equipped Red Army of 1943. Finally, capturing Moscow was the Wehrmachts only hope for forcing the Soviets to come to the peace table. The fall of the Red capital may have led to a collapse in Soviet morale, a long shot but the only shot. A video on a hypothetical attack on Moscow would be great, think about it, had it happened it would have been the mother of all battles and in my opinion remains one of the biggest "what ifs' of the Second World War. Anyway, good video and great job!
The capture of Moscow takes a backseat compared to the capture of the Caucasus. There is just no way around it, due to Germany's chronic fuel shortage. Furthermore, there is not much time left; the Americans are coming which would make the German strategic situation even worse after 1942. In this instance, Hitler was correct in prioritizing the southern sector, although he could not muster enough forces and supplies to make Operation Blau to work as intended. By contrast, the Soviets were able to incessantly pressure the Germans since the summer of 1942, despite the initial disasters. Although the Soviets did not make any immediate gains from launching one suicidal attack after another west of Moscow and northwest of Stalingrad, they kept the Germans off-balanced and bled German units. The fact that the Germans lacked any significant operational reserves upon Operation Uranus is quite telling.
The picture of the pocket is not correct enough, the western Don area was evacuated by the Germans in 23-24 of november to form circle defense, to learn the real size see "operation koltso" picture.
Sir, as always, another incredibly awesome video. I appreciate the research and thought provoking analysis you do on all your subjects. Your even handed approach to the question of the success or failure of a German breakout from Stalingrad is commendable. Keep up the great work.
Here is what one of my relatives had to say in Stalingrad before trying to engage a soviet sniper. These are his actual final words before getting headshot by said sniper according to a letter written by his comrades adressed to his wife: "Und jetzt leckt's mich am Arsch!" (literally: "And now lick my ass!", meaning "Fuck off!") I think that sums up Stalingrad pretty well. And I still think to this day that these are probably the best final words, I've ever heard (read) anyone saying.
I saw this channel when a good mate suggested we watched some of the Bovington tank videos. Bovo, well FMD, there’s a fair dinkum shit hot place. So any-ol’-hoo as they reckon in Canadia, I copped a squiz at this little ripper vid and strewth, by the end of it I was happier than wombat comin’ across a brand spankin’ new 200m earthen walled dam just beggin’ fer a right royal burrowin’. Whatta absolute bloody hoot! Truly sensational stuff mate. Hadda perve at cha other titles and you’ve been busier than a blue arsed fly. Youse blokes are legends.
I respect this channel so much. Thank you so much for providing actual educational material on the subject as opposed to conjecture and propaganda garbage
Stalin was fully committed to the defense of the city which bore his name. Before the battle, he learned from Sorge, a highly successful spy, that Japan was going to abide by the Russo-Japanese Treaty and was not going to mount an invasion of Russia in the far East. Armed with this knowledge he was able to move a tremendous number of troops from the far East to Stalingrad. Previously, Sorge had advised Stalin of the exact date of the planned invasion of Russia by Germany. He was also advised of this by the West but ignored it believing it to be merely a "provocation". Despite his paranoia, Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would violate the Russo-German Non-Aggressive Pact and invade Russia. His shock at the event caused him to escape reality for about a week, with some close to him describing him later as having suffered a breakdown. He made no radio announcements during the first 6 or 7 days after June 22, 1941. His inaction resulted in the loss of thousands of Russian planes while on the ground during this time.
On paper the German breakout was very unlikely to succeed, but the Germans demonstrated many times during the soviet war that they could achieve things that would normally be thought impossible. I honestly think a breakout could have went either way 50/50.
I think its more like 80/20. 80 for not breaking out, in TIK's video he describes the situation in stalingrad for the germans in full detail. The germans were starving to death, each man got one slice of bread a day and on top of that freezing to death. And the germans did not have air superiority anymore, one thing changed in the battle of stalingrad, the red army airforce. They were shooting down german planes in increasing numbers which is why germany failed to supply the 6th army hence the starving. They also had artillery constantly bombarding the german airfield so the soviets had the 6th army checkmate-ed.
For the soldiers inside the pocket, any chance would be better than no chance. The Russians didn’t expect Napoleon’s army to escape encirclement and cross the Berezina in November 1812, but incredibly, several thousand did.
The only relief would have been Sixth Army itself-but within days of the encirclement if any equipment was to be salvaged as horses were the primary source of transportation. They lose strength rapidly without fodder so I'd give 3 maybe 4 days maximum to breakout with equipment. Perhaps 15 days to breakout by abandoning equipment but if only a narrow corridor were opened the Soviets would have immediately tried severing it. They might have had one opened for a day or two and perhaps half the army could have been saved but it was a lost conclusion from the start.
As usual a fascinating and provocative video. Maps showing the distances would be a huge help. Your comments provoke this question- What was 6th army's time table 11/1/42? Suppose the Germans had full control of Stalingrad by 11/15- what next? Were they then going to turn south for the oil fields? What was army group central doing at this time? There was a 500? mile gap between central group and Stalingrad Was NO ONE looking at this? Do Manstien's personal papers hold the only info on his thinking between 10/15- 12/23
hmmm,Im gonna make a stupid question What if the Germans Encircle the Encirclement when the Soviets started attacking the pocket,Would the Soviets get confused due to the Germans attacking their rear while the ones in the pocket fights back at the same time?
When I look of a Stalingrad breakour I find myself comparing it to the 8rh Army and General Wenke at Halbe Forest at the close of the war. There was no Tangermünde awairing Paulus or any possible relieving force. The only possible "breakout" would have been for the 6th Army to go into an "every-man-for-himself" scenario. In the Russian Winter instead of the German Spring.
I had heard that, though I had heard it was 400, but I am willing to bet they used stealth and tried to avoid fighting as much as possible. That is not a cowardly thing, but a sensible choice. The main issue though is while you can get 400 - 600 men out by using stealth, moving at night, scouting ahead heavily, avoiding enemy concentrations etc, you CANNOT do that with 200,000 men :) Still, good job by them.
There are plenty of examples askjiir. Plenty of examples where breakout was impossible as well. Lets just take one issue, Sixth Army had lost almost all its transportation vehicles, not to mention its tanks. To break out they would have had to *walk* out, taking their heavy equipment would have been impossible, which means almost no anti tank capability. The shortest route to break out was covered by 3 Soviet Armoured Corps.... Want to guess the chances of an army relegated to walking breaking out against an army with superior mobility, superior reserves, and superior supply situation? EDIT: *HAD* Sixth Armies supply situation been much better, its tanks still relatively intact, and its transportation assets relatively intact, then yes, a breakout would have been possible. Given their actual situation however, then no. I do not believe there was aeven the faintest chance of it being successful.
Is that the best you can do? Purile, childish insults? It is obvious your 'knowledge' of modern warfare can be written on the back of a postage stamp in crayon. 1) The Sixth Army did not have the supplies or heavy equipment required to mount your precious breakout. 2) Had they mounted a breakout they would have been trying to break contact from a more mobile enemy. 3) They were outmatched in artillery, ammunition and personnel 4) They were already in direct, and I mean direct contact with the enemy so keeping a breakout secret (its ONLY chance of success) was impossible 5) The Soviets at this time had complete air superiority 6) The Soviets had mobile reserves already close to the only real route of a breakout, the Heer did not. In total, this means any attempted breakout without serious resupply including delivery of adequate transportation (and fuel) for at least anti tank guns was doomed to utter and abject failure. So go away little man, go do some actual reading and research rather that masturbating over your fetishist fantasy. Absolutely pathetic.
Its true.The son of Jonas Semaska is still alive and we have long vid about stalingrad breaking, but nobody translate that spech, because all smarter peoples have brain wash about nazys and bolshevism...
The Wehrmacht did not intend on crossing the Volga during Case Blue. The main goal was in conquering the caucasian oil fields and Stalingrad was not even near that. The city itself was important as it was a stronghold at the main transportation line of oil into mainland Russia from the oil fields. Now leaving Stalingrad in Sovjet hands would bring the risk of later attacks from this position.
I'm no war expert, but looking from the bigger picture, Germans didn't have much time left against the frezzing winter, so surrounding the area and long siege was out of order. There was no other way but to move in full assault.
Move on ------------ where to. Stalingrad was 'The End of The Line'. Outside Stalingrad (Volgograd) even today there is ENDLESS STEPPE which is not very hospitable in Autumn Winter and Spring and sweltering in Summer. I know -- I have lived there for a full 10 months.
Thank you for this amazingly thorough video! I especially enjoyed the "But..." section (which included my favourite "but, namely Operation Winterwetter)
Socialist countries such as the USSR and Nazi Germany have no problem getting along, see the invasion of Poland, Baltic states and Romania, as well as the USSR trading material to the Germans to kill the allies.
@@MAAAAAAAAAA123 Please look at what happened to the Romanian borders in 1941. The USSR invaded Bessarabia and Bucovina, established the invaded land as the "Moldovan SSR", and began to repress the local Romanian population. The main reason why Romania even joined the axis was because Romania lost land not only to the USSR, but also to Bulgaria and Hungary, and Romania was desperate for some land, which it was going to gain by going to war with the USSR.
The key to understanding the outcome at the battle of Stalingrad was the determined Soviet defense of the Don Bend west of Stalingrad. The Don bend fighting in July and August 1942 caused heavy Germany infantry losses for the 6th Army. The other key point, were the the Soviet attacks in the Kotluban region north of Stalingrad with four armies. These vicious attacks tied Paulus's tank divisions depriving his infantry of the bulk of their tank support. So the situation of the German Wehrmacht was already grim before the battle of Stalingrad ever got started. Most of these two major military actions have been largely forgotten by Western historians until recently. David Glantz talks about these combat actions in his Stalingrad series of books. Any discussion of a German 6th Army breakout, without first considering the heavy combat losses both in the Donbend summer of 1942 and the Kotluban battles during the Stalingrad battle in the city, leads to distorted conversations apart from the historical realities on the battlefield.
I think it is important to say that the marching speeds mentioned at 9:13 don't include fighting! They are just for covering the distance with equipment. (i learned to calculate 3-4km/h marching speed for an infantery soldier, and quote: "for every 300m increase or 400m decrease in altitude covered you add another hour" ) And i think everyone who marched for >30km in one day with soldiers equipment strapped to his/her back knows that it isn't "fun". Now add to that: the state the people were in, the weather, the food situation and the "marching entertainment" of the red army...
yes I like how you just assume Germany had the capabilities to do all of that you mention and Assuming they did i doubt they would success.Fuck off nazi Edit:Hitler focused most of his army on Ussr not western front which wasnt even a front
yes You realise Finland attacked officially Ussr but got stalled by defending ussr forces right?And an underdeveloped turkish army which isnt backed by industry is expected to bring any change?Nor ww2 was for Air and naval power.Seriously it was mainly ground wars which was started by the need for more land in order to fullfill Germany's requirements in resources.Idk where did you get the idea from
yes Bugger off, Nazi fuck. The Germans lost on every side of the war and the Soviets sacked Berlin, they burned down the Reichstag, Hitler shot himself in the head, his generals were executed, and the allies divided up the country, and then Germany became a liberal bastion in Europe. There was no way Germany was going to win the war, unless they had the US, Britain or Russia on his side, and even then I don't think that the US could have helped much. And the Brits beat the Turks in WW1, and had much greater forces by WW2, there is no reason it wouldn't happen again.
yes Lol you are pretending to be an expert yet you seem to ignore that german army was already over stretched with few corps guarding thousands of km.Using turkey and Finland would mean diverting much needed divisions.The front line would collapse even faster.And why didnt the germans do it in Leningrad since fins were at war with Ussr?Dont you think they would do that and maybe it was a shitty idea and thats why they didnt do it even though they thought about it.You failed abortion
It was Kalach at the Don Bend that AGC 6th Army received it s first major counter punch in the mouth. Soviet losses were immense but german losses were significant enough to give Hitler a gut check as well. Kalach destabilised forward momentum of Panzer & Infantry long enough for Chuekov to mass reserve Siberian divisions et al. for Stalingrad's defence. IMO the knife fight started July 25th the 6th Army was reduced to a fully filleted corpse by Christmas.
The encirclement date: There is a discrepancy in what is beeing shown in the picture and what is being mentioned in your speech. The proper date was November 23, 1942 and not October same year. Thanks for the documentary you are doing a great job.
When counting the escape bdistance needed to cover by the average soldier of the 6th Army one shall not use the closest point of the pocket to a German front line. Most of the force was further away, and the distance needed to evacuate everyone is limited by the units furtherst away. From the frontline in Stalingrad it would have been certainly a very long march. The 6.5km/day in winter is either distance covered while fighting, or the average speed while moving a division through a bottleneck. On one hand you can cover way more walking for life, on the other the speed is zero if the opposing force stops you in your tracks.
One of my oldest friend's Uncles fought for Germany at Stalingrad. He refused to surrender, somehow slipped through the Soviet lines, and made it to Turkey. He lost all of his toes from frostbite, but took a ferry to German occupied Greece, insisted on joining another unit, and ended up fighting on the Western Front. I despise Nazi Germany, but that guy had balls of solid rock.
Von Manstein was in charge of Operation Winter Storm. He was leading the attempt to relief German forces in Stalingrad. So, how could it be he was against the relief attempt (as you suggested in 18:14)?! In fact, they got pretty close to helping 6th army break through! He even contacted Paulus and tried to convince him to disobey Hitler's orders and go for break through and link up with his forces coming to Stalingrad. However, what sealed the fate of 6th army was Operation Little Saturn; the attack of Soviet forces against airfields from which German supply aircrafts were taking off. So, in order to protect the airfields, Manstein's tanks were ordered to abandon the relief of Stalingrad. Also, a significant number of transport aircrafts was lost, making efficient airdrops nearly impossible. What if they (6th army) tried breaking through immediately upon encirclement? Well, they might have made it in that case with large losses, but that is all speculation now... Some additional information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Winter_Storm th-cam.com/video/BwfoDNv6uFQ/w-d-xo.html
Anti-freeze is only useful for preventing the water from freezing during winter and prevent it from boiling and turning into steam in normal conditions and summer. It does little if anything for lubricating an engine that’s the job of engine oil, which also helps with cooling it.
Dr. Jens Wehner recently made a German video on this, that also includes some new sources, be sure to check it out here: th-cam.com/video/nTQVd_u96hs/w-d-xo.html
Corrections: It was the 23rd November 1942 as written, NOT October as narrated. It was "Guards Army" not "Guards Amy".
Video on Wehrmacht & Red Army Tactics at Stalingrad here: th-cam.com/video/BEhkkzIenr0/w-d-xo.html
If you like in-depth researched videos on Military History, consider supporting me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/mhv/
Chuikov's memoir is a great read. 64th Div, and others, were ground down to nothing in the process of "Bleeding White the Hitlerite".
The attritional perspective-easier for the historian to integrate into his or her narrative-discounts the planning of Operations and Operational strategy. As German Generalship declined through attrition, Russian Generalship advanced through experience. Even though I am making that point, I still wonder about how much direct influence the two policy makers had on troops at he front. I am still afraid of Stalin . . . and Hitler . . . and Churchill . . . and Missaloony.
Ok, we got this question out of the way so let's move to another: would attempt of breaking out of encirclement pay off more than just staying in the city? Would they inflict more damage/would the losses that happened, and would happen anyway, be less of a waste?
I would rather guard Amy too
Can you make a video assesing if Hitler gave Mainstein full control of the army in the east which he did and the front was stabilized. But then left him in control. Could have Mainstein changed the outcome of the war? If you cannot make a video can you please give your oppinion? Thank you.
Brilliant ! This video helps explain a lot. Many thanks !
I wonder what did the Germans also find as obstacles in the eastern front (Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev...etc)
" Where are the horses?"
" We are the horses."
I get the reference
Watched it last night.
They ate the horses
I LOVE THAT MOVIE :) - Where is our artillery? - YOU ARE the artillery!
Great reference! What a grim movie.
One of my grandfathers was a combat engineer. He and his unit only survived Stalingrad because of his commanding officer. When the encirclement was about to get completely closed, this man apparently decided that he loved life and his men more then the Führer. There was only one crammed road out of the encirclement left and for most cars there was no getting through, except for trucks with wounded, so my grandfathers commanding officer 'borrowed' some trucks and ordered his little convoy to stay directly behind one of the last convoys with wounded soldiers that made it out of the cauldron.
Apparently the situation was a complete mess and the 6th Army was in a state of dissolution, so no one even really asked, not even after they got out. Sure, it was clear that this unit of combat engineers was definitely _not_ where it was supposed to be, but then again this officer continued to refer to orders never given by brass that was dead, so no one could prove him wrong and since combat engineers were quite a rare commodity for the Wehrmacht at this time, they got away with this.
Unfortunately, my grandfathers unit got ordered back from Russia and was then transferred to the Normandy, where my grandfather got captured by the Allies. After a not too long time as prisoner of war of the Allies, he was send home. Unfortunately, the russians then dragged him out of his train, which is how he became a prisoner of war of the russians, a year or so after the war was over.
Damn your grandpa's a Nazi
A sad fate, surviving the most devastating war while captured by the west, and when you finally get to go home, the Russians snatch you
@@yugiohguy And your grandfather was an idiot who clearly passed this specific set of genes to later generations quite successfully. We all have our cross to bear, haven't we? :)
@@looinrims While most the bigwigs just got away, like so often. From 100.000 german soldiers captured at Stalingrad, only a couple of thousand ever returned.
While Paulus, that goddamn pig who _caused_ the misery of his soldiers in the first place by having no spine at all, returned to East-Germany soon after the war and was happy to offer his services to the socialist dictatorship. Isn't it fun.
@@Furzkampfbomber I detest the Russians on just about everything, but more subjectively I could never blame them for the treatment of German POWs, considering what the reverse situation looked like
But yeah, it’s always the top guys who get off scot free, while the lower guys are the ones who take the beating
Warning: huge wave of hoi4 players are coming to suggest opinions
Germans could definitely break through if they used artillery only.
Artillery only would've saved 6th army
Man, that game is so unrealistic. Hoi3 was way better IMO.
Change the divisions trapped in Stalingrad to a paratrooper insignia, and paradrop them back behind your own lines!
Fools. I wouldn't have been encircled in the first place! I would have them surrounded from the inside!
I like how a horse had a better chance of escaping Stalingrad than a German soldier.
If it wasn't eaten
Or used as a source of fuel to cook said horse.
I would be surprised if any horses ultimately survived the eastern front. If you weren’t human you were basically fucked.
If you were a human you were also fucked tbh
@@andyl8055 horse's had value they could Pull supplies through the mud and snow if you were Russian you could always get more people.
My great uncle was actually part of the airlift. The conditions he described were hellish.
@Alex English Left the chat....
@Alex because some one says nazi scum dosent mean they are communists, of course, the same could be said for the person you replied because they don't know if that member of family member was a nazi.
Stalingrad at the end of January in 1943 must have literally been one of the worst places to exist in all of history.
How about first day of somme
Still slightly better than modern days Detroit though...
How about November 23, there you have more horror in front of you
There are some places which were stigmatized during world war. Auschwitz, Dresden, Stalingrad. That places stand for all terrors and fears that war and hate can bring to the people up to our days.
Not even close
Given what we know about what happened to POWs on the Eastern Front (from both sides), if I was in the 6th Army, I would have preferred the breakout, whatever the odds.
I thought the same about WWII in general. My grandfather has seen horrors beyond your imagination, but still I would have preferred to test my luck in combat rather than hide from constant bombing raids, starve and have to fear torture and rape...
So you have 2 options:
1. Surrender and hope you, as exhausted soldier, won't freeze to death on your way to Gulag.
2. Break out as exhausted soldier, fight the Soviet and hope you don't freeze to death or die by Soviet hand.
So both options offers you freezing to death only 2nd one gives you chances of being killed in combat. So your chances for survival are higher if you surrender no matter how brutal the POW treatment is.
They were in shit and maybe you would like to break out but I don't think many of them cared at that point. There is a saying the dead ones are lucky because they don't suffer anymore.
My father was there with the Hungarian army, not as a combative soldier as a forced slave labor...
According to him about 800 laborers who when there less than a dozen survived. .
He survived because exchanged his labor clothing with a dead Hungarian officer. .
As he was walking the ice road truck came along, next thing he remembers being in a hospital in Budapest. .
Hated Hungarians with a passion, accordingly wishes all would've been killed by the Russians. .
Jason Wilson what a story, interesting!
Or by Feldgendarmarie hand. "Where is your weapon -------- you have lost it" "A bullet will perhaps teach you not to lose it again".
What actual grand scale advantage would such a breakout deliver? Short answer is "none". The defensive stance kept a large chunk of Soviet manpower and materiel committed. The ability to hold that chunk at Bay required the entirety of the German manpower available. The losses of materiel by the Germans, the inevitable over run by the Soviets, and the depletion of the manpower that did manage to breakout, and the Haggard condition any successful units would have arrived to German lines in would, strategically, add up to the same losses as their starving to death, only sooner. A breakout had an imbalance that favored the Soviets far more than the Germans. That's why the status quo was favored, it bought more time before the inevitable happened, and had a greater chance of turn around of Fortune if something miraculous occurred. A miracle was their only chance.
Yep. That was the calculus. It bought the other army groups a good 45-60 days time.
The idea isn’t it would change the fortunes of war, it’s just a thought exercise, and considering what actually happened to the poor sods, yeah
No. an immidiate breakout would be a stupid idea but attacking when Mainstein"s troops tried to relief the army was a good idea. The losses during the breakout would be in the tens of thousands, but half of the german forces could have been escaped and then used against the soviets again.
Evacuate the horses.
But leave the men and tanks.
GENIUS!!!!
Gotta appease PETA my dude
You can grow hay and oats. Can't grow oil.
Hitler was a vegan afterall
Horses have little combat value, the Soviet winter offensive at Stalingrad was a surprise
@@looinrims why it was a surprise? Hitler generals Become dumb overnight? German intelligence? What was doing?
Even if the sixth army went out of Stalingrad somehow, even if the Red Army give tham a free pass in November, this wouldn't have a significant impact on the war. The thing which matter is the ultimate failure of the operation Case Blue, which would happen with or without the Battle of Stalingrad.
Yeah I guess. It was just around 100k soldiers that was stuck in Stalingrad. Those extra 100k soldiers wouldn't be much help in the long run when the soviet would outnumber the german army in the millions.
@Hazzmati
Agree. In the woke of the operation Barbarossa the Axis forces had about one million soldiers more than the Red Army on the Eastern Front. In November 1942. the Red Army had about 2.5 million soldiers more than the Axis forces on the Eastern Front. Initial success of the operation Case Blue was due to the Axis' concentration of forces in one sector of the front and because the Red Army expected another Wehrmacht's thrust toward Moscow. It was just a matter of time when the Axis lines will start to crumble and collapse.
The Germans and Soviets werent actually in a "one verses a million" situation, the soviets were bleed severly in the war and at many times, they were tied in manpower. 100k men is a very large amount, as its enough to hold a large area.
What would be the issue, is that once they got out, they'd have a hard time establishing a defense, but they could have at least helped to stabelize the front in the region a wee bit. The 6th army falling was a major 'buttfuck' in the German lines, as it was afterall an army.
But tbh the german industrial and fuel situation was more of an issue. They were hand crafting tanks up untill 1943 if i recall, and still had a major issue with fuel supplies. If the 6th army would have broken out, they might have held some ground or aided in holding the front one way or the other, but they wouldnt be able to push past stalingrad, or around it. And that was what Case Blue needed, secure oil fields to keep the German war machine operating. And that war machine was thirsty.
@pingun96
In the last paragraph you are pretty much saying 'even if the sixth army broken out that wouldn't have a significant impact on the war', something which is the main thesis in my comment. Nevertheless, by November of 1942 the Red Army had about 2.5 million soldiers more than the Axis and far more firepower. With the battle of Stalingrad or not, with the Case Blue or not, with the Lend-Lease or not, by the Spring of 1942 the Wehrmacht is doomed on the Eastern Front. In the Operation Barbarossa the Wehrmacht failed to knock out the USSR out of war, before the USSR start to mobilize reserves and consolidate industries in the rear. After that failure the Wehrmacht is doomed on the Eastern Front. The battle of Smolensk is probably the most critical point in the war. After this battle the Wehrmacht will still have huge successes, but the USSR already establish the platform for the attrition which, in the long run, lead the Wehrmacht into defeat.
"with the Lend-Lease or not". I agree with most you wrote, but I am not sure if this would be the case without the allied supplies. Could the soviets supply their armies and feed their citizens without the trucks and the food which the allies were sending?
This feeling when snake becomes schnake, Stalingrad becomes Schtalingrad and Vodka becomes Schnapps...
I shee what you shaid there. Shhh!
I am quite sure that his English is way better than your German ;)
SCHMIRNOFF!
LOL
Nothing wrong with a bit of accent.
A fighting chance with the risk of death is always preferable to certain death.
Manstein was promising Paulaus that Army group Don is coming to save him. So yeah he believed he had another chances
@transylvanian: What a load of crap.
The soviets even worked their own citizens to death in gulags. Why on earth would they treat enemy troops any better?
@transylvanian: Sounds to me like you're thw victim of pro-soviet propaganda. It's obvious youre pining back for the days of "the glory of the soviet union" more than anything. A pinko commie in other words.
@transylvanian In western penal labour systems, convicts were not purposefully worked to death or put through starvation on purpose like the barbaric soviets did.
People also weren't sent to penal labour for the mere act of disagreeing with the ruling communist party, like the vile, disugsting soviets did.
What's next? Are you gonna tell me that the Holodomor was just "an accident"?
@transylvanian: Ever heard about the Katyn Massacre? The victims in that were not nazi germans, but polish officers and soldiers.
Are you gonna claim that poles would defend or buy into a nazi narrative just because they hate the soviet union?
I would be interested to know how many Soviet formations were tied down encircling Stalingrad that would have been freed up to join the main front of there had been a breakout. In other words was it more beneficial for the Germans that the pocket held to tie down Soviet assets or would it have been more beneficial to alleviate the beleaguered German supply chain from supplying the pocket and potentially recovering a part of the manpower of the 6th army for future operations.
eh a german army was a nice trophy to mount on the wall. dont forget about the political aspects of warfare.
@@arjunvardhan8134
"More than a 100 formations"
Why not 200?
"After the front, which had come to chaotic movement as a result of the Russian breakthrough, finally stabilized, the intelligence department of the headquarters of our corps gradually managed to get a more or less complete picture of the situation from the enemy. Now, when the entire 6th Army was concentrated in a relatively small area inside the ring, we tried to identify and strike on the cards all enemy strike formations operating against the 6th Army. Only large *Russian formations here at first numbered about 60* - these were mainly rifle divisions and tank brigades, combined into seven armies. To this should be added some of the compounds in reserve, whose presence was not easy to detect. The main forces of the enemy, and above all his artillery, were concentrated in the western sector of the ring, which was defended by parts of our corps. We calculated that enemy formations that surrounded us with a steel ring possess at least threefold numerical superiority and have an awesome amount of heavy weaponry.
Our army, however, the number of which before the entourage was about 330 thousand people, now after the losses suffered as a result of the Russian breakthrough, according to our data, there were about 280 thousand people, including Romanians, as well as some units that were not previously part of the army, but trapped with us in the pot. Among the surrounded were representatives of absolutely all German lands (one of the army corps was formed in Vienna). All of them were henceforth bound by one unkind fate. They were addressed the words of the order, promised salvation: “Hold on! The Fuhrer will rescue you! ”
Wieder I. "The Catastrophe on the Volga"
This Wieder data is not far from the truth. By that time, not three, but two fronts acted against the encircled ones, as the Southwestern acted on the outer ring of the encirclement, and the 51st Army of the Stalingrad Front acted here. On November 27, up to 10 rifle divisions, one tank division and three cavalry corps acted on the external front of the encirclement.
The 62, 64, 57th armies of the Stalingrad Front and the 65th, 66th, 21st and 24th armies of the Don Front were active on the inner ring. It should be borne in mind here that they all suffered losses, especially the army of the Stalingrad Front, the composition of each of them, as Wieder himself points out, is not
exceeded the composition of the German army corps, and for the most part was inferior to it. Therefore, the final conclusion about the threefold superiority of the Russians is an exaggeration. By December 1, the Stalingrad direction as a whole had the following ratio: Soviet
divisions - 68.5, German - 48 (ratio 1.45: 1); 854,776 from the Soviet side, 846,000 from the German side (1: 1); soviet tanks - 797, German - 770 (1: 1); Artillery and aviation ratio was about the same. Triple pre-rise Soviet the side had only large-caliber mortars. The enemy, however, had a qualitative superiority in the field artillery.
*Directly against the encircled forces there were 43.5 Soviet divisions* consisting of 479,672 men (1.45: 1 ratio); 465 tanks against 340 (1.3: 1); Cannons and mortars 8491 against 5230 (1.6: 1).
Look up Eastory, he has mapping videos of the nazi Soviet war, it was a lot of units
All of Army Group South was a mess at this time. So yes the longer 6th Army held out the better the strategic situation was.
Several authors on the topic have written that at any given moment after December 7, 1941, at least two-thirds of Wehrmacht soldiers were on the Eastern front.
One of the reasons so much fuel was required is that the planes had to fly fuel in for the return trip given the distances involved.
Not sure that I'm understanding the criticism of Manstein by the "semi-official history" other than on humanitarian grounds. It sounds as though leaving the 6th Army to its fate was the more rational decision (at least in November and December) than attempting a breakout. The chances of a breakout succeeding seem very low, and even if it succeeded, the survivors would not bear much resemblance to an organized fighting force, and the German front line they reached would have still been a horribly improvised patchwork that STAVKA could easily punch through. Perhaps Army Group A in the Caucasus would have been destroyed along with the forces around Stalingrad.
For once, blaming Hitler seems to be appropriate, but only after mid-December, when the German front lines further west had stabilized and the relief attempt had clearly failed. Paulus and his men should have been allowed to surrender, since their fate was totally sealed and any further resistance was just prolonging their suffering.
Well, he assumed the Sixth Army could hold out and this was not the case. If he argued, well, we need to sacrifice them in order to hold the lines elsewhere, it would have been a different matter.
if you want to know what happened there watch TIK he has a few ( many ) in depth videos about stalingrad. and manstains role
Military History Visualized one possibol faktor you did not mention in this video: could the forces from the main german line attack to help the boket to break out or where they not suited for offensive operation? let's say they had pusht in from the outher side 1/4 of the way suddenly the chance of a breaktrow would be much higger because 1: less distance to cross for the forces in and around stalingrad 2: less time for the soviets to react, because less distance to cross quiet obvious 3: i would belive that the longer they would attack the weaker the units would get because they already have supply problem and the longer they fight the more ammunition, fuel and food they lose. (talking about the forces in the poket)
they did try but failed the attatck was led by Guderian
Eevee there were not sufficient forces available for a "break-in" attack. The German front lines were a hodge podge of thrown together unattached units.
First of all, very good video. But some parts of 6th Army manage to breakout from Stalingrad. There were two 7th and 6th Lithuanian Auxiliary Police Battalions which were lead by major Jonas Semaška. Which got permission from 6th Army HQ to retreat with the rest of his men separately from the main forces. And they managed to breakthrough from "Stalingrad Pocket". 400 Lithuanian soldiers reached Lithuania out of more than 700. As a side note these men were conscripted to German army against there will. Only source of this story is in Lithuanian language in book called ''Priesaika, Jonas Semaška-Liepa ir bendražygiai''. Also I made short video about it in English.
There is a big difference between 400 men breaking out and 200,000. While I do not know the story I will make the assumption that those Lithuanians did not in fact 'break' out, but for the most part 'infiltrated' out, in other words relied on stealth more than combat power to affect their withdrawal. You simply cannot do that with 200,000 men, especially considering so many of them were in effective direct contact with the enemy, thus any withdrawal would have been immediately noticed.
I would not be surprised to hear similar stories of small numbers of men being able to extricate themselves from the Stalingrad pocket, but I will make a bet that pretty much all of those that managed it successfully did so by relying on stealth rather than combat/
@@alganhar1 Thank you for your response.
To start with, I was not talking about possibility of major breakout of 6th army. It was Unthinkable, and I completely agree with information in this video. However, I just wanted to tell that history is not just black and white.
Secondly, you made a logical assumption that was mostly stealthy sneak out from Stalingrad rather than breakout. Well at least from my source it seems that there was fierce fighting involved. Sometimes even hand to hand combat. Also, there is information about that battalions got into artillery fire in some occasions. So, combat was real. You can see that from numbers. Around 700 started and approximately 400 survived. Of course, stealth tactics were used because units moved through swamps and forests avoiding strong points but losses were still high.
Another piece of information is that some of battalion’s men got military awards. In my opinion, this should prove that if even Germans consider award worth achievement it sure seems like a quite big accomplishment.
Well the italians tryed to break trough and they did It at the end. And we are talking about an entire army, even if the losses where really heavy
Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer and said that they would have relied *mostly* on stealth, fighting only when it was absolutely neccessary. My mistake. An interesting story however, one I intend to look up. I have heard of a few scattered groups escaping Stalingrad, but they would have numbered a few thousand at best if you add them all up. Even the best encirclement will have enough small gaps that will allow small, determined, and skilled groups to escape.
@@echoofhistory7583 I think you just wanted to bring an anecdote to the table - there's nothing wrong with that but you don't need to put on airs about it.
I love listening to smart people talk, matters little what the subject is, so long as it’s passionate and ethical
You’d deny what smart people would say on the basis of ethics (assuming what they’re saying is factual)? How’s that work?
When you encircle the whole 6th army in Hoi4
*outstanding move meme*
owned
German troops sucked Russian wiener.
Luca Pinne ... totally a supply and demand issue. What's worse, is that upper command new they didn't have resources to aide the breakthrough forces...and YET they sent them anyway. Waist! Waist! Waist! Of men and supplies.
@Sovereign only if yours is small lol!! As a girl, that is all I can do.... haha
@Sovereign ... lmao!! You are way to silly lol
15:51"Unless you have the reaction time of a stone."
A quote I am going to be using from now on, thanks. And a fantastic and informative video as always.
Wasn't the continued German resistance in Stalingrad necessary to keep the Soviets tied up in order that the failed German offensive in the South could retreat from the Caucasas? I don't know its true but I've read this being the reason that Hitler demanded Paulus stay put in Stalingrad. In other words sacrificing the 6th army to buy time for the Southern army.
I've read that also
That is true. The 6th army tied down a massive amount of Soviet troops that could have otherwise been used to trap the retreating army group B coming up from the south. Sixth Army was aware of this and they knew they were being sacrificed.
In fact, I believe that 7 Soviet armies (equivalent to 7 Western corps in strength) under Rokossovsky's Don Front were allocated to encircle and destroy Paulus' 6th Army. If there were no Stalingrad pocket, then Don Front would have been sent westward and quite possibly collapsed the southern half of the German front in which Manstein would not have been able to do much.
The Soviets demanded a surrender on Jan 9, 1943. This would've entrapped many more Germans in the Caucasus creating a "super Stalingrad". The delay in surrendering allowed von Manstein to remove those troops.
Who needs high defensive walls, when your cities and factories are surrounded by huge stretches of muddy land for an invasion force to exhaust themselves on the road to their objectives?
All you need to do is set up artillery and keep the QRF on stand-by.
Seven Proxies Except kursk which was like maginot line
"mobile maginot line"
Mexico ball Im not talking about tanks but fortifications wise
Even the communists couldn’t drain Russia of mud
My father was there with the Hungarian army, not as a combative soldier, as a forced slave labor...
According to him about 800 laborers who where rounded up on the streets in summer clothes less than a dozen survived. . Some of those men where concert musicians even a olympic quality weightlifting champions..
He survived because exchanged his clothing with a frozen Hungarian officer found in a field as he was walking on some ice road, truck came along, next thing he remembers being in a hospital in Budapest, after recovering somewhat he snuck out before they discovered who he really was
Hates Hungarians with a passion, accordingly to his vengeance all should've been killed by the Russians.
His hands have Frost bites all over...
Yes it's true. ..takin a crappie and never get up again. .
Happy birthday Dad.. October 12..1911-1994
was he one of the jewish forced labourers the Germans rounded up prior to Fall Blau? :o
so he survived thanks to Hungarian people. What was his problem? Bolsheviks were the better? Like NKWD soldiers?
@@vigigejmer9813 he was enslaved and put in death's way
@@rohitrai6187 enslaved by Who? What was that death's way? You don't write clearly.
@@vigigejmer9813 I believe @JasonWilson might clarify it better
Your videos are very grounding. I used to criticize a lot of Hitler's military decisions, but you highlight very realistically the Wehrmacht's limitations almost making me agree with those decisions. Great research, congratulations!
I see some questions on things not directly related to the video. If you support MHV through Patreon, you can get those questions answered via Q&A videos. If you are very interested in learning more about military history, support the channel more and get Discord access. The MHV Discord channel has a good community of helpful people including MHV!
That's too bad. I hate discord.
Every russian after hearing your pronunciation of Stalingrad : *dies
Every Slav too
I've read Stalingrad by Antony Beevor and Victory at Stalingrad by Geoffrey Roberts. This video fills in lots of questions i had from the books.
Those were good books. I listened to the audio versions of both. Also Tigers in the Mud. How the described the Eastern front was insane, couldn't even imagine something like that, and various other "Eastern Front" books.
Beevor's book was awesome
Ein sehr gutes Video. Ich wünschte meine Dozenten wären mehr wie du
danke, wie sind die denn?
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized
Es fällt mir schwer die negativen Eigenheiten meiner Dozenten aufzuzählen. Aber bei dir erkenne ich immer ein Struktur der ich sehr gut folgen kann.
lol, danke, ja, Struktur ist sehr wichtig und darauf lege ich auch großen Wert. Jedes meiner Skripte hat klare Unterteilungen, in diesem Fall hab ich 2 Ebenen benutzt, selten gibt es drei. Hier findest du nen Screenshot zur Struktur des Skripts: twitter.com/MilHiVisualized/status/1049740609517424640
try again please lol
Imagine the terror of being encircled by an enemy which you've been commiting war crimes against for months.
I watched a documentary on Stalingrad and when the order came for the Germans to remain in Stalingrad, they (the Germans) couldn't believe it. They desperately wanted to break out and they were ready and willing to do it. Whether it was possible was another matter.
Great video BTW. You obviously did your research.
Note that Stalingrad was an anomaly, even for the Red Army itself. The Red Army's own Field Regulations and reality before Stalingrad dictated that it should defend cities by digging defensive belts OUTSIDE the city proper. Even in long, drawn out affairs like Sevastopol or Leningrad, the Red Army defended outside the city proper. At Sevastopol, Manstein got some very heavy mortars which helped reducing the fortification substantially. Paulus did not have the same amount of artillery. Furthermore, according to Glantz, several Soviet counterattacks and counterstrokes on Paulus' way to Stalingrad meant that a lot his Panzer divisions were tied up protecting his flanks instead of rolling into the city. He was short on infantry anyway since they had to scrape together even combat engineers to serve as infantry to capture the city. Regiments became battalion-sized, battalions became companies, and companies down to squad-size.
Infantry alone or tanks alone can not take any build up area without heavy casualties. Mogadishu proved that light infantry without mechanised armors resistant to bullets would be heavily mauled. They had somewhat bulletproofed Humvees; but the bullet proof glass are not "that" durable, and the tires are easily punctured by the smallest bullet or shell fragments on the ground. Tanks and armoured vehicles without dismounted infantry also suffer heavily in urban fighting, ala Grozny. The Army suffered heavily, too, since they could not ferry much tanks across the Volga and had to make do with mostly infantry.
Part of the reason why the Army Group South was so weak and had inadequate replacement was the reinforcement had to be sent to Army Group Centre, who were enduring relentless Soviet attacks. The attacks were not that successful, but it definitely bled the Army Group Centre white. The sister operation to Operation Uranus, Operation Mars, had equal priority and allocation of men and material. However, it ran straight into some very good German divisions and stalled. Zhukov called it, in his memoirs, a diversionary attack. Glantz judged it as: if it were a diversionary attack, it was one of the most costly one. Uranus was a lot more successful since it managed to slam into the weaker satellite troops who were inadequately armed and armoured. It also explained why Manstein could not get anymore troops from elsewhere. I believe he demanded "all the forces in South Russia" for a decisive battle; then Hitler can get all the oil he wants after that. In hindsight, Army Group A had already stalled at Ordzhonikidze. Its lead Panzer Division (23rd) was stopped and surrounded by 2 Soviet Rifle Corps, which between them had only around 10000 men or so. The 23rd Panzer managed to break out but it was mostly the soldiers: they had to leave the vehicles behind. Army Group A simply did not have enough fuel, vehicles, or strength to make the long journey back to Manstein and break Paulus out of Stalingrad. That does not even mention the Red Army who would have exploited the retreat to the full.
15:51 ?? I am stone and I find this offensive :D
good :)
It's okay, Rocky, you go when you feel like it.
Your english is spot on mate, I love watching your videos :) Danke Schon!!
thank you!
Ive always felt that the sheer motivation of "hey we might live" would push them out with crazy casualties. Maybe even motivating the outside force alittle more to try and save there comrades as well, but those are things that can't be predicted. Just feel that the choice of fight or die is a huge motivation to put your head down and go no matter what.
A lot of that fuel fraction was to turnaround transports. That means it was lost to the troops on the ground. Airplanes are fuel hogs.
Could you do a video on german fuel production comparet with the other powers and then do a breakdown on german fuel distribution between her allies, navy and different fronts. It would also be great if you could do a general breakdown of german resources and there they were investet steel, workforce, capital and so on. A comparison in soft area production like trucks, radio, ammunition would also be great since most only look at tanks,ships, guns and so on. It would also be interesting to look at german AA, antitank guns and artilleri production both total and the ratio of AA to the other two relative to the other powers.
can yes, will unlikely. Just for the German side I would need to read around 1000 pages, for the others I would have to find proper books, what you are asking for is basically something along a phd or even more.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Could you please do a video on german antiaircraftgun production both total and ratio compered to artilleri and antitankguns relative to the other powers or a video on german fuel production and distribution(germany seem to have a lot of diesel and soviet fuel production look very low) please conside my request it has been very defficult to find anything and the numbers I did finf look odd thank you.
Could you also calculate Pi to 2 billion places while you're at it?
@daniel: for questions may I refer you to the Oberst rank: www.patreon.com/mhv
I must say that when you say that a breakout might still have been possible (albeit difficult), the decision to just leave the army to its fate cannot be defended either on a military, humanitarian or from a morale point of view. A chance of recovering some > 100% chance of losing all of them.
Even if the soldiers could not see the future, they probably had a good hunch that their chances of suriving as a Soviet POW were grim (as would indeed be shown to be the case). They would have been quite ready to make great sacrifices in a push to have a chance at a breakout. The generals of the time seemed to think that it would have been possible. Consider that even if Soviet strenght was theoretically hugely superior in the Stalingrad area as a whole, they would have had to move an absolutely enormous amout of men, weapons and supplies locally in order to turn around the attacking troops being conducted west of Stalingrad and bring all of that to bear on the sallying Germans within the space of 3 days.
None of that excuses, ofc, that Germany didn't start the withdrawal _before_ encirclement was complete. They had pragmatically conceided defeat before when an attack turned out to not work they way they wanted, and this should not have been different. The string of defeats on the flanks and the time that had passed since Germany more or less showed its hand in that area (mid summer 1942) should have cued them into the idea that the Soviet counterattacks meant business.
But what would have happen if the breakout would fail and Stalingrad was taken by the Soviets much earlier? Maybe the 6th army bought just enough time for the Axis to stabilize the front, so the Soviets couldn't attack the lines again and encircle Army group A.
I like the way he says "Stalingrad"
Germans like to pronounce the letter S as "Sch" or should I say the letter S with caron, known as "Š"
@@Igyzone so that's why their ß or "SS" letter is their regular "s" sound. Thanks for reminding.
Don't russian people also pronounce it the same?
St or Sp are usually pronounced sh-t or sh-p in german (some folk in the north of germany refuse to do so, but the rest does) As long as theese letter don't belong to seperate words which are combined into one (like in Hausputz)
Schtalin. Just like in the Hitler Rants meme.
@@Igyzone actually it's the "st" combination that in some regions in Germany is pronounced as "scht" (like "Stalingrad" in the video)
I could not have thought of a better birthday present, MHV. You had my heart before, but now you have my soul. /s
SS General "papa" Hausser disobey Hitler's explicit orders withdrew his troops from ukrain "Kharkov" to avoid encirclement. Hitler not punished him for this disobey. Also Rommel, when he was outnumbered in Egypt, disobeying direct order by Hitler, to stand firm and “not to yield even a yard of ground”. Rommel disobeyed the order and sound the alarm for retreat. He also wasn't punished .
Yeah Paulus was a complete toddy
Hitler did not consider North Africa to be an important front. Rommel was not getting additional men and tanks. Rommel pitted Mussolini and Hitler against each other just so he could attack the British. The Italian navy was low on fuel, so they didn't help with transporting and protecting supplies.
Hitler was not fond of Manstein. Manstein gambled on a strategic withdrawal to recapture Kharkov which was successful. The same Manstein that could have ordered Paulus to break out of Stalingrad.... only to refuse and then make a half-hearted effort. Manstein blamed everyone for his own failures.
In actuality Hitler declined a breakout because he was re assured by his commanders the city could hold and the encirclement lifted. We can see multiple examples of where hitlers stand and fight orders not only helped for example, in the battle of moscow but would have proved helpful in other cirumstances, thus I believe Hitler is not given due credit, even though he made mistakes his commanders often supported is decisions.
It's easy to blame your boss for your own mistakes when he's dead.
true, manstein did this a lot
He was assured by Göring that the Luftwaffe could supply the city, and both believing Göring or coming to any independent conclusion that the Luftwaffe could have met the supply needs of the 6th Army with transport planes was stupid. It had been done before at Demyansk but on a much smaller scale and the situation had changed dramatically by Stalingrad in regards to the Luftwaffe-Soviet Air Force power gap. The Soviets also had anti-air guns all around Stalingrad which guaranteed a high rate of attrition.
The stand and fight order worked for Moscow but later on it was just done everywhere. So-called "fortress cities" in 1945 like Breslau just abandoned more troops behind the lines and left the way to Berlin more easily open. He also refused to evacuate the Kurland pocket, Crete or Norway when it was clear those troops were needed more in Germany. So Hitler was not a smart commander and no one should be under any illusion he was.
nein, hitler denied breakout because he refused to give up ground that had been taken. He had the foreknowledge that any loss of ground would equate to defeat and would turn the tide. He lied directly to the troops in promising he could get them out when there was no chance or indication that this was reality. He was told multiple times that they could not provide enough calories and fuel through the air drop and that there were not forces to breakthrough from the south. Also the Russians had a secondary offensive going on as Manstein came to the rescue. If you read a scholarly work you would realize that the german leadership was obsessed with creating the appearance of being control while hedging bets and preparing for defeats. You, and many on this board have more positive feelings about Hitler than his own troops had...they knew he was a politician who promised things he couldn't fulfill and they would be sacrificed in order for him to save face. They didn't care to live in russia, they just wanted to go home to their children and families. They used to jokingly call him "the greatest warlord in history" because they knew he took credit for their successes.
I just wanted to say thank you for making these videos. They get me through long shifts at work. I appreciate your hard work and professionalism.
If Paulus was replaced by tommykay they would have never been encircled in the first place
The 6th army should never have entered stalingrad. And Army group South should have had more support. The push to Moscow was pointless and pulled attention from the real goal of invading. Resources, the whole reason they were there was for Ukrainian Grain and Caucasian Oil
Aye. But like Napoleon, Hitler seemed to believe that taking an enemy capital was somehow important.
But unless the capital is also a main producer of oil, tanks and planes, taking it is meaningless.
Barbarossa itself was pointless. There is no possible scenario where Germany could have won
@@ignacejespers8201: I would argue that capturing and securing the Caucasus oil fields was not only NOT pointless, but absolutely necessary for the german war effort to continue the war.
So saying that all of Operation Barbarossa was meaningless isn't entirely true.
That said, too much emphasis was placed by Hitler and the german high command on capturing strategically irrelevant cities like Stalingrad. All that manpower and resources would've been better used in capturing the oil fields and get them running to serve the german war effort rather than the soviet war effort.
STalingrad was not that irrelevant, it was a stronghold on the major line of soviet fuel-supply, the volga.
Ieuan Hunt Moscow was a massive railway center. Look at any railroad map and you’ll see Moscow is the hub of Eastern Europe. This would have helped to German supply lines, along with Moscow falling, the morale boost to the Germans would be immense and would severely hurt soviet troop management and be a damaging PR situation. Moscow was not pointless. It was symbolic and a situational bonus to the invading force.
Where else, but a tank, can five men effectively use a 5cm gun, two or three MGs, and stay behind bullet-proof armor all the while? Nobody EVER says that Germany had enough tanks to absorb converting a bunch into infanterie halbgruppen.
Further, armor is the wrong tool for any job in towns and other built up areas. Like Leningrad, the idea was to reduce fortifications through artillery and air close support. There was siege artillery available, but planes could be transferred between fronts (and rear areas) much more quickly than giant cannon and howitzers.
11:00 Another advantage for Soviet troops within urban combat were the guns used, such as the PPSH41, a SMG with an amazing firerate for CQB and a 70 drum mag, while Paulus's army mostly had MP40s, which while being reliable, was not suited for cold weather (unlike the PPSH series), and had a rather slow firerate.
I loved that wolf in sheep image. Also you missed an important opportunity to use your classic pony instead of a horse while talking about evacuated horses.
9:34 Concretely, they had 4 brigades (equivalent to 2 divisions) while the German tank corps had 3 divisions each, theoretically.
It is necessary to point out that whatever force was fortunate enough in successfully escaping the encirclement at Stalingrad would do so without most of its heavy equipment/tanks/artillery/etc... and after suffering incredible casualties during such escape. Such a decimated force would need to be shipped back to Germany for reorganization and re-equipment and would not be able to participate in meaningful defensive operations against the Soviet "Little Saturn" operation (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Little_Saturn). Essentially, after the successful encirclement at Stalingrad, Case Blue was doomed no matter how you look at it.
My great uncle was a flying instructor who died in Yugoslavia in 1943. In late 1942 early 1943 he had been moved to assist in the airlift. Not sure if he flew but he certainly assisted with "blind flying" teaching at night or cloud/ poor visability...
read the book of Colonel Adam (1C-Officer of the 6th Army) "with Paulus in Stalingrad"
in german: "der schwere Entschluss"
Let me tell you, honorable sir, no channel in this world had ever taught me so much about the Second World War, your videos helped me understand every aspect and details including the tactics, the logistics and how the war is not as simple as the war games I played on Steam.
Going through many paradigm shifts, I finally know the truth behind the many decisions that the generals made, I thought they were fools that refuse to go with the obvious "solutions", but now you have led me out of my blind and naive mind, you have opened my mind. I thank you for all that you have done to educate others!
Thanks for a great video. I once attended a lecture given by a military historian who was trying to explain the post WW2 psyche of the Soviets and the roots of the Cold War. I wish I could remember his name. His main point was that at Stalingrad the Russians fought soldiers from over 20 different nationalities. Whilst the Germans were most numerous there were armies from Romania, Croatia, Hungary and Italy and smaller units from Belgium, the Baltic states, Norway, Denmark and if I remember rightly, from “liberated” parts of the USSR, such as the Ukraine. There were also units made from Russian POWs. Some of these took really heavy losses, for example the Hungarian Army had 80,000 killed.
His point was that, from the USSR’s viewpoint, Stalingrad was viewed as not just a fight with the Germans, but a fight against most of Europe. So post war the Soviets “ occupied” Hungary, Poland, Romania and the Baltic states partly to make sure they wouldn’t have to fight them again. And the effect on the “psyche” was for the USSR to think of itself alone against the rest of the world, which contributed to the Cold War, and is still the attitude of many Russians today.
I’m sure you are very busy but if you have the time I would welcome a video on the battle of Budapest in 1944. It’s not widely known about but the Red Army didn’t have things its own way there and Stalins plan to knock Hungary out of the war failed. However Hitler unwisely diverted reserves to Hungary which hastened the fall of Berlin. Or so the conventional view goes.
Since the Mongols, every threat to Russia came from the West, Poland, Teutonic Knights, Sweden, Prussia, France, Britain & France, Germany-Prussiax3
That might well have been how things were seen from the Soviet standpoint, indeed. Of course it was also an utterly "created" narrative on their part, given their history with various nations and groups within that force involved against them. So while it was how they saw things from their point of view, it certainly wasn't "true", aside from "a certain point of view".
Celebmacil But it was true. The facts are that at Stalingrad, the Red Army alone faced the Germans, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians and Croatians as well as minor units from other countries.
Oh, I'm aware. I'm just stating the mindset of "having to fight them again" as if they were somehow an innocent and unfairly aggrieved party in many of the cases is an... interesting... view to take for the Soviets (or Russians), in context of what they'd been doing to some of those nations for centuries, or even as recently as two years previously, or what they then went on to do once more in the next two to twenty and more years.
It's like repeatedly kicking the crap out of all the neighborhood dogs for a decade and then being amazed that they come hunt you down and gang up on you, and feeling like "well, I guess I'd better REALLY kick the crap out of them this time so I don't have to kick the crap out of them again!".
@@Celebmacil
"in context of what they'd been doing to some of those nations for centuries,"
What about examples?
Some days you wake up . . . and you feel like fighting loss historical battles all over again. Thank heaven for TH-cam (!)
not impossible....just "next to impossible", and arguably doing the Red Army a favor if they tried it.
"As so often there are many arguments that can be made, yet a German breakout at Stalingrad was definitely not easy, nor was it without risk: yet at least it would've given the men a fighting chance instead of starving to death." Absolutely brilliant summation! The MHV's allusion to FM Manstein is indicative. According to Ziemke & Bauer, 'Moscow to Stalingrad (Decision in the East) NY 1988 page 475: on 24th Nov 42 FM Manstein reported to O.K.H that "he could not concur at present with Army Group B’s stand in favour of breakout.” However, by 19th December he had changed his mind and informed Hitler that because LVII Pz Corps probably could not achieve contact with 6th Army, he believed the only answer was to order it to break out. He maintained that this would, at least, save most of the troops and whatever equipment could still be moved. To Paulus, he sent advanced notice of a breakout order, but the message ended that 6th Army was merely to get ready but not start until ordered. Hitler, encouraged by LVII Pz Corp's recent success, refused to approve. Instead he ordered Pz GrD Viking from Army Group A to 4th Pz Army and insisted that 6th Army was to hold out until firm contact was established, so that a complete, orderly withdrawal could be accomplished. Note Hitler was ready to evacuate Stalingrad on 19th Dec but wanted to play 'safe': fatal in this fluid situation.
This begs the question, why was an army (the 6th) that was so unfit for offensive operations still trying to push forward? Was the lure of Stalingrad so bright that the Wehrmacht ignored the condition of its forces and kept going forward? Why were the offensive forces so low on materials (assume it’s the length of the logistics train). Why was German intelligence not more aware of the disparity of forces facing it?
I am in no way and expert on this topic but as stated in this video, the Germans felt perhaps not "superior" but felt the Soviets were incapable of mounting real determined resistance against them, secondly IIRC German intelligence on the Eastern front was bad in general. The Germans were also firm believers in bewegunskrieg, war of movement, and the initial Fall Blau plan wanted to take Stalingrad to cut off the Soviets from the Volga and Caspian. Suffice it to say, Fall Ball was not a good plan and heavily overstretched limited German resources.
It's always great fun to try, like with Market Garden. Paulus was known to be a delayer from his Kriegakademie wargaming, that was noted about his style. That's why in books like Hitler's Generals they style him as a cunctator. Meyer boasting that he could supply the entire Sixth and barely managing 10% of the minimum needed was kind of understandably demoralising for Paulus as much as being left there to just inconvenience the enemy, something we all do all the time in gaming, but the Stalingrad story tells us how that feels and should be instructive.
I agree with your Clausewitzian argument of "friction", though. Like with the logistics, it's hard to tell what lesson to draw from this, like with the unique logistical problems to that front that don't seem to apply in Europe or North America, for example.
Ich cannot even believe people talk about a Breakout!!! That wasnt the point... OKH absolutely didn't want a breakout. They needed those men to stay put there. Sure, for civility they thought about it and discussed it but they Knew it was of Strategic importance for the 6th army to remain in Stalingrad. 6th army was sacrificed to hold the front and free up the Caucasus Area. So no, a breakout wasnt even really considered, expect maybe by Paulus. Poor Paulus always getting the blame. I dont agree with that either. Anyways they were doomed from the Start logistically Speaking.
fruler I’ve heard that argument before and it makes some sense. The 6th Army pinned a large concentration of Soviet troops by staying there.
@@CarlosSempereChen i think it is pretty clear from retrospect that they were there in Stalingrad to keep the Caucasus safe, for it oil resources. They didnt even manage to do that. If they wanted they could've probably broke out in November... But that would've caused a collapse of the southern front... Where the oil was. It just turned out to be the most horrific battle in all of german history, possibly world history. THe suffering on all sides was insurmountable, indescribably horrific and brutal. I dont blame Paulus, he had his orders and he followed them like a good general would. He wasn't weak like people described, i would say hes strong for what he did and went through. I think he was a smart highly intelligent man in a bad, no way of winning the battle situation. Hopefully people will have more respect for him in the future and hopefully historians will agree that a breakout wasnt even on the table... 6 armee was to hold the line.
I think you nailed it.
The 6th was sacrificed.
Michel van Dijk I agree
Michel van Dijk and sacrificed at a high cost too. Man power is more valuable than technological advancement. Soviets realized this more than the Germans did. Wehrmacht was highly trained, highly advanced. They had 20 years of post ww1 to study their loss and they did and learned from their mistakes more than any other Nation
Mein Freunde und Oberst, sehr gut Video. Your English has significantly improved since I started watching your videos two years ago, BRAVO!!
The main thing people fail to understand, at least among those with whom I debate military history, is that even had the 6th and 4th Pz broken out, the entire southern sector of the Eastern Front would have collapsed in short order. The encirclement was just tying down too many Soviet formations, and were they all suddenly freed, the Germans would have been faced with a disparity of forces in the southern sector for which they were not prepared. It is debatable I suppose, since those forces were eventually freed, but at a later date, giving the Germans more time. Personally I think a breakout could have succeeded relatively easy early on, given that the encirclement was very loose behind the German positions. The later they waited, the less chance they had of success, and the more equipment they would have to abandon.
Thing is, those units were freed up in rather short order, and the Voronyez front absolutely shattered armygroup south. If the Soviet counteroffensive came during the summer, the axis might have even faired better considering a big part of their weakness was the low motorization of theirtransport capacity was very ineffective in the winter.
Thank you! What you have demonstrated was that the decision to not try to break out was under the circumstances at the time and with the knowledge they had a reasonable decision.
My take away from this is that the 6th Army basically had no business being in Stalingrad in the first place.
That is very much the case, in fact securing Stalingrad was originally a secondary objective. Hitler became obsessed in securing the city for propaganda purposes and forced his generals to divert valuable units that were supposed to secure the Caucasus and it's oil fields, which was the main reason why Fall Blau began in the first place.
Another reason to attack Stalingrad was that they had a large tank factory there.
@transylvanian Well, Russia was not supposed to be able to put up much of a fight according to the Germans.
Ever hear of the Caucus oil fields?
@@psilvakimo Even if the Germans could have taken them, the Soviets would have burned them as soon as they got near
One aspect is missing. A breakout would have put up the moral of the German troop drastically. If you would have told the soldiers: "We prepare to get out of this winter hell immediately. Fight as hard as you can to get back home or we all will die here." They could have done the impossible.
Case Blue was quite a silly undertaking and overly ambitious. If you ask me it was a logistical nightmare run on a shoe string, as your great video shows. Looking at Stalingrad, the failure to assemble enough anti-freeze material in October 1942 shows how absurd the logistical situation was. The Germans should have hit Moscow in the summer of 1942.Firstly, Army Group Centre had ,by 1942, a stable logistical frame work including several double gauged rail lines. Secondly, the Wehrmacht was in a way better position qualitatively vis-a-vis its Red Army counterpart. Thirdly, even though the Moscow region was well fortified, this advantage would have been nullified by the Wehrmachts' qualitative advantage; take Kursk for instance, at Kursk the Wehrmacht inflicted a casualty ratio of of more than 4:1 on the Red Army and that was against the much better equipped Red Army of 1943. Finally, capturing Moscow was the Wehrmachts only hope for forcing the Soviets to come to the peace table. The fall of the Red capital may have led to a collapse in Soviet morale, a long shot but the only shot. A video on a hypothetical attack on Moscow would be great, think about it, had it happened it would have been the mother of all battles and in my opinion remains one of the biggest "what ifs' of the Second World War. Anyway, good video and great job!
Three quarters of Heersgruppe Sud was made up of second rate units of Axis minors.That alone shows it was not a viable offensive.
The capture of Moscow takes a backseat compared to the capture of the Caucasus. There is just no way around it, due to Germany's chronic fuel shortage. Furthermore, there is not much time left; the Americans are coming which would make the German strategic situation even worse after 1942. In this instance, Hitler was correct in prioritizing the southern sector, although he could not muster enough forces and supplies to make Operation Blau to work as intended.
By contrast, the Soviets were able to incessantly pressure the Germans since the summer of 1942, despite the initial disasters. Although the Soviets did not make any immediate gains from launching one suicidal attack after another west of Moscow and northwest of Stalingrad, they kept the Germans off-balanced and bled German units. The fact that the Germans lacked any significant operational reserves upon Operation Uranus is quite telling.
The picture of the pocket is not correct enough, the western Don area was evacuated by the Germans in 23-24 of november to form circle defense, to learn the real size see "operation koltso" picture.
Just use some command power for forced attack, it's not that hard
Sir, as always, another incredibly awesome video. I appreciate the research and thought provoking analysis you do on all your subjects. Your even handed approach to the question of the success or failure of a German breakout from Stalingrad is commendable. Keep up the great work.
So basically 6th Army had a weak pull out game?
The climax, oil in the hole, seemed so near.... They could not stop, it was so tempting..... Worse yet, uranus was unprotected. Flanks destroyed.
With the equipment numbers you have mentioned,trying a breakout would not have been a fighting chance,it would have been a slaughter.
That is how it has worked out in other sieges
Here is what one of my relatives had to say in Stalingrad before trying to engage a soviet sniper. These are his actual final words before getting headshot by said sniper according to a letter written by his comrades adressed to his wife:
"Und jetzt leckt's mich am Arsch!" (literally: "And now lick my ass!", meaning "Fuck off!")
I think that sums up Stalingrad pretty well. And I still think to this day that these are probably the best final words, I've ever heard (read) anyone saying.
I saw this channel when a good mate suggested we watched some of the Bovington tank videos. Bovo, well FMD, there’s a fair dinkum shit hot place. So any-ol’-hoo as they reckon in Canadia, I copped a squiz at this little ripper vid and strewth, by the end of it I was happier than wombat comin’ across a brand spankin’ new 200m earthen walled dam just beggin’ fer a right royal burrowin’.
Whatta absolute bloody hoot! Truly sensational stuff mate.
Hadda perve at cha other titles and you’ve been busier than a blue arsed fly. Youse blokes are legends.
If the 6th Army did manage to break out, the Soviets would have trapped the entire Army Group A in the Caucasus
I respect this channel so much. Thank you so much for providing actual educational material on the subject as opposed to conjecture and propaganda garbage
Had Stalingrad not continued to resist huge Russian forces would have been freed to destroy the whole Southern flank in Russia.
Stalin was fully committed to the defense of the city which bore his name. Before the battle, he learned from Sorge, a highly successful spy, that Japan was going to abide by the Russo-Japanese Treaty and was not going to mount an invasion of Russia in the far East. Armed with this knowledge he was able to move a tremendous number of troops from the far East to Stalingrad. Previously, Sorge had advised Stalin of the exact date of the planned invasion of Russia by Germany. He was also advised of this by the West but ignored it believing it to be merely a "provocation". Despite his paranoia, Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would violate the Russo-German Non-Aggressive Pact and invade Russia. His shock at the event caused him to escape reality for about a week, with some close to him describing him later as having suffered a breakdown. He made no radio announcements during the first 6 or 7 days after June 22, 1941. His inaction resulted in the loss of thousands of Russian planes while on the ground during this time.
Traversing a one-way rail line into Stalingrad would be a fantastic Thomas the tank engine episode.
On paper the German breakout was very unlikely to succeed, but the Germans demonstrated many times during the soviet war that they could achieve things that would normally be thought impossible. I honestly think a breakout could have went either way 50/50.
I think its more like 80/20. 80 for not breaking out, in TIK's video he describes the situation in stalingrad for the germans in full detail. The germans were starving to death, each man got one slice of bread a day and on top of that freezing to death. And the germans did not have air superiority anymore, one thing changed in the battle of stalingrad, the red army airforce. They were shooting down german planes in increasing numbers which is why germany failed to supply the 6th army hence the starving. They also had artillery constantly bombarding the german airfield so the soviets had the 6th army checkmate-ed.
Retardation at its finest
For the soldiers inside the pocket, any chance would be better than no chance.
The Russians didn’t expect Napoleon’s army to escape encirclement and cross the Berezina in November 1812, but incredibly, several thousand did.
Mark Cole Great point
@@muffy469 I wouldn't put much faith in anything that TIK says.
The only relief would have been Sixth Army itself-but within days of the encirclement if any equipment was to be salvaged as horses were the primary source of transportation. They lose strength rapidly without fodder so I'd give 3 maybe 4 days maximum to breakout with equipment. Perhaps 15 days to breakout by abandoning equipment but if only a narrow corridor were opened the Soviets would have immediately tried severing it. They might have had one opened for a day or two and perhaps half the army could have been saved but it was a lost conclusion from the start.
23 October or 23 November 1942 is the real one
23rd November as written, sorry misread.
As usual a fascinating and provocative video. Maps showing the distances would be a huge help. Your comments provoke this question- What was 6th army's time table 11/1/42? Suppose the Germans had full control of Stalingrad by 11/15- what next? Were they then going to turn south for the oil fields? What was army group central doing at this time? There was a 500? mile gap between central group and Stalingrad Was NO ONE looking at this? Do Manstien's personal papers hold the only info on his thinking between 10/15- 12/23
all your quesitions are answered here th-cam.com/video/pucJTYK7_Yo/w-d-xo.html
Red Army At Stalingrad: It Came In Uranus.
15:09 To be fair, they tried and failed due to the attacks from the 5th Tank Army.
hmmm,Im gonna make a stupid question
What if the Germans Encircle the Encirclement when the Soviets started attacking the pocket,Would the Soviets get confused due to the Germans attacking their rear while the ones in the pocket fights back at the same time?
What with?
Advancing the frontlines closer to the pocket and calling some few veterans from the Western front
They would have done that if it was possible.
But it was not, they were lacking too many things.
@@seanshultze220 German reserve units at that point were already engaged. There were no units to do the encirclement with.
Well then the Soviets would just encircle the German force encircling their force encircling German forces.
When I look of a Stalingrad breakour I find myself comparing it to the 8rh Army and General Wenke at Halbe Forest at the close of the war. There was no Tangermünde awairing Paulus or any possible relieving force. The only possible "breakout" would have been for the 6th Army to go into an "every-man-for-himself" scenario. In the Russian Winter instead of the German Spring.
600 Lithuanian volunters escape from stalingrad kottle, throw three soviets rings. The leader of mission was Jonas Semaska.
I had heard that, though I had heard it was 400, but I am willing to bet they used stealth and tried to avoid fighting as much as possible. That is not a cowardly thing, but a sensible choice. The main issue though is while you can get 400 - 600 men out by using stealth, moving at night, scouting ahead heavily, avoiding enemy concentrations etc, you CANNOT do that with 200,000 men :)
Still, good job by them.
where can I find this information? I was under the impression that no one made it out
There are plenty of examples askjiir. Plenty of examples where breakout was impossible as well. Lets just take one issue, Sixth Army had lost almost all its transportation vehicles, not to mention its tanks. To break out they would have had to *walk* out, taking their heavy equipment would have been impossible, which means almost no anti tank capability. The shortest route to break out was covered by 3 Soviet Armoured Corps....
Want to guess the chances of an army relegated to walking breaking out against an army with superior mobility, superior reserves, and superior supply situation?
EDIT: *HAD* Sixth Armies supply situation been much better, its tanks still relatively intact, and its transportation assets relatively intact, then yes, a breakout would have been possible. Given their actual situation however, then no. I do not believe there was aeven the faintest chance of it being successful.
Is that the best you can do? Purile, childish insults?
It is obvious your 'knowledge' of modern warfare can be written on the back of a postage stamp in crayon.
1) The Sixth Army did not have the supplies or heavy equipment required to mount your precious breakout.
2) Had they mounted a breakout they would have been trying to break contact from a more mobile enemy.
3) They were outmatched in artillery, ammunition and personnel
4) They were already in direct, and I mean direct contact with the enemy so keeping a breakout secret (its ONLY chance of success) was impossible
5) The Soviets at this time had complete air superiority
6) The Soviets had mobile reserves already close to the only real route of a breakout, the Heer did not.
In total, this means any attempted breakout without serious resupply including delivery of adequate transportation (and fuel) for at least anti tank guns was doomed to utter and abject failure.
So go away little man, go do some actual reading and research rather that masturbating over your fetishist fantasy.
Absolutely pathetic.
Its true.The son of Jonas Semaska is still alive and we have long vid about stalingrad breaking, but nobody translate that spech, because all smarter peoples have brain wash about nazys and bolshevism...
2:46 Not gonna lie, I had a giggle
Am I missing something obvious when I suggest the Germans should have just went around Stalingrad? As in surround the city and then move on?
The Wehrmacht did not intend on crossing the Volga during Case Blue. The main goal was in conquering the caucasian oil fields and Stalingrad was not even near that. The city itself was important as it was a stronghold at the main transportation line of oil into mainland Russia from the oil fields. Now leaving Stalingrad in Sovjet hands would bring the risk of later attacks from this position.
You are missing 1km of Volga river. And overwhelming Soviet forces on the other bank.
I'm no war expert, but looking from the bigger picture, Germans didn't have much time left against the frezzing winter, so surrounding the area and long siege was out of order. There was no other way but to move in full assault.
Move on ------------ where to. Stalingrad was 'The End of The Line'. Outside Stalingrad (Volgograd) even today there is ENDLESS STEPPE which is not very hospitable in Autumn Winter and Spring and sweltering in Summer. I know -- I have lived there for a full 10 months.
Thank you for this amazingly thorough video! I especially enjoyed the "But..." section (which included my favourite "but, namely Operation Winterwetter)
I would honestly suggest to keep away from TIK. He still stuck in the "Hitler was a lefty and his party was socialist" - so sad...
I guess you missed the second sentence.
Socialist countries such as the USSR and Nazi Germany have no problem getting along, see the invasion of Poland, Baltic states and Romania, as well as the USSR trading material to the Germans to kill the allies.
@@MAAAAAAAAAA123 Please look at what happened to the Romanian borders in 1941. The USSR invaded Bessarabia and Bucovina, established the invaded land as the "Moldovan SSR", and began to repress the local Romanian population.
The main reason why Romania even joined the axis was because Romania lost land not only to the USSR, but also to Bulgaria and Hungary, and Romania was desperate for some land, which it was going to gain by going to war with the USSR.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualizedI did not understood what you said.
DDR was not democratic, despite it's name. Neither is North Korea. Except by TIK"-logic".
The key to understanding the outcome at the battle of Stalingrad was the determined Soviet defense of the Don Bend west of Stalingrad. The Don bend fighting in July and August 1942 caused heavy Germany infantry losses for the 6th Army. The other key point, were the the Soviet attacks in the Kotluban region north of Stalingrad with four armies. These vicious attacks tied Paulus's tank divisions depriving his infantry of the bulk of their tank support. So the situation of the German Wehrmacht was already grim before the battle of Stalingrad ever got started. Most of these two major military actions have been largely forgotten by Western historians until recently. David Glantz talks about these combat actions in his Stalingrad series of books. Any discussion of a German 6th Army breakout, without first considering the heavy combat losses both in the Donbend summer of 1942 and the Kotluban battles during the Stalingrad battle in the city, leads to distorted conversations apart from the historical realities on the battlefield.
I think it is important to say that the marching speeds mentioned at 9:13 don't include fighting!
They are just for covering the distance with equipment. (i learned to calculate 3-4km/h marching speed for an infantery soldier, and quote: "for every 300m increase or 400m decrease in altitude covered you add another hour" ) And i think everyone who marched for >30km in one day with soldiers equipment strapped to his/her back knows that it isn't "fun". Now add to that: the state the people were in, the weather, the food situation and the "marching entertainment" of the red army...
Nothing was going to save the Germans from Russia, especially when Russia is on the defensive.
"Hitler's nice guy politics"? What killing millions of people have to do with niceness?
yes I like how you just assume Germany had the capabilities to do all of that you mention and Assuming they did i doubt they would success.Fuck off nazi
Edit:Hitler focused most of his army on Ussr not western front which wasnt even a front
yes You realise Finland attacked officially Ussr but got stalled by defending ussr forces right?And an underdeveloped turkish army which isnt backed by industry is expected to bring any change?Nor ww2 was for Air and naval power.Seriously it was mainly ground wars which was started by the need for more land in order to fullfill Germany's requirements in resources.Idk where did you get the idea from
yes
Bugger off, Nazi fuck. The Germans lost on every side of the war and the Soviets sacked Berlin, they burned down the Reichstag, Hitler shot himself in the head, his generals were executed, and the allies divided up the country, and then Germany became a liberal bastion in Europe. There was no way Germany was going to win the war, unless they had the US, Britain or Russia on his side, and even then I don't think that the US could have helped much. And the Brits beat the Turks in WW1, and had much greater forces by WW2, there is no reason it wouldn't happen again.
yes Lol you are pretending to be an expert yet you seem to ignore that german army was already over stretched with few corps guarding thousands of km.Using turkey and Finland would mean diverting much needed divisions.The front line would collapse even faster.And why didnt the germans do it in Leningrad since fins were at war with Ussr?Dont you think they would do that and maybe it was a shitty idea and thats why they didnt do it even though they thought about it.You failed abortion
It was Kalach at the Don Bend that AGC 6th Army received it s first major counter punch in the mouth. Soviet losses were immense but german losses were significant enough to give Hitler a gut check as well. Kalach destabilised forward momentum of Panzer & Infantry long enough for Chuekov to mass reserve Siberian divisions et al. for Stalingrad's defence.
IMO the knife fight started July 25th the 6th Army was reduced to a fully filleted corpse by Christmas.
The encirclement date: There is a discrepancy in what is beeing shown in the picture and what is being mentioned in your speech. The proper date was November 23, 1942 and not October same year. Thanks for the documentary you are doing a great job.
When counting the escape bdistance needed to cover by the average soldier of the 6th Army one shall not use the closest point of the pocket to a German front line. Most of the force was further away, and the distance needed to evacuate everyone is limited by the units furtherst away.
From the frontline in Stalingrad it would have been certainly a very long march.
The 6.5km/day in winter is either distance covered while fighting, or the average speed while moving a division through a bottleneck.
On one hand you can cover way more walking for life, on the other the speed is zero if the opposing force stops you in your tracks.
One of my oldest friend's Uncles fought for Germany at Stalingrad. He refused to surrender, somehow slipped through the Soviet lines, and made it to Turkey. He lost all of his toes from frostbite, but took a ferry to German occupied Greece, insisted on joining another unit, and ended up fighting on the Western Front. I despise Nazi Germany, but that guy had balls of solid rock.
Bullshit....
Much better analysis than TIK. Has anyone proffered that Paulus should have been re-enforced or an OFFENSIVE launched?
Von Manstein was in charge of Operation Winter Storm. He was leading the attempt to relief German forces in Stalingrad. So, how could it be he was against the relief attempt (as you suggested in 18:14)?! In fact, they got pretty close to helping 6th army break through! He even contacted Paulus and tried to convince him to disobey Hitler's orders and go for break through and link up with his forces coming to Stalingrad.
However, what sealed the fate of 6th army was Operation Little Saturn; the attack of Soviet forces against airfields from which German supply aircrafts were taking off. So, in order to protect the airfields, Manstein's tanks were ordered to abandon the relief of Stalingrad. Also, a significant number of transport aircrafts was lost, making efficient airdrops nearly impossible.
What if they (6th army) tried breaking through immediately upon encirclement? Well, they might have made it in that case with large losses, but that is all speculation now...
Some additional information:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Winter_Storm
th-cam.com/video/BwfoDNv6uFQ/w-d-xo.html
lol
Anti-freeze is only useful for preventing the water from freezing during winter and prevent it from boiling and turning into steam in normal conditions and summer. It does little if anything for lubricating an engine that’s the job of engine oil, which also helps with cooling it.