OK people. I understand audio isn't great. I just moved continents and am still trying to get everything set up. I'm filming in a coffee school and the echo is quite bad, distorting audio. This has great info in it, so give it a try. If not, no worries! Cheers
It's not that bad (just my opinion, but as an audio engineer, I can only say it could be way worse and is really just a bit reverby). There *could have been* noise, clipping-related distortion, phasing issues, but there's only a bit of reverb-not that bad and not worth getting upset over. Don't let the moaners spoil the pride and accomplishment of your work
@@alexblank91 yeah also a professional audio engineer and its just a little far away in a room w a lot of hard surfaces. Im not hearing any audible clipping. Agree its no issue
Yeah, I found the audio to be annoying, so I stopped the video after about 10 seconds. I guess I’ll watch it with captions. Definitely get a lapel mic. Rode has a nice wireless one for a reasonable price. And yes, the space is poor for audio. If you can hang blankets behind the camera, it would help a lot, even with a lavalier mic on your shirt. As they say, audio is more than 50% of video!
I just don’t understand why so many people on here are quick to bring up negativity with Lance’s channel. The dude seems super chill, and he’s giving us info we enjoy. He’s allowed to have an opinion, and his audio is fine…the amount of rude comments is so irritating.
I’m 15 seconds in but I would imagine people are commenting on the hollow echo sound. It’s not good. Such comments are constructive feedback. Not hating but his content is good so presentation should rise as well. Love you, Lance.
Is the audio perfect? Nope. The lighting the best? Nah. Is it the content we need? Absolutely. We all see these being used but struggle to decipher price and necessity. You’re the real hero here Lance.
I went through 7 different microphone/audio setups over 2 years before finally being satisfied with what I've got - it takes time people! Video is still understandable enough to learn from :)
As a former laboratory scientist, I really enjoy the detailed explanation on calculations, careful calibration and care for instruments, and data-driven conclusions. As always, thank you for the good work!
Glad this video went out before I bought a budget refractometer. Love the super in depth scientific videos. Got 2 pages of notes out of this video and probably more after I write down the workflow. Thanks as always, Lance!
Brilliant video. So much info that touches on so many important things, especially the methodology which can get forgotten about when it's a refractometer that lives on a bar. One thing I'd like to share; it's not perfect, but a budget alternative to VST filters that I was shown is using an aeropress filter folded into quarters, like a chemex paper. Again, not perfect, but at least its a lot less waste than the VST syringe method.
Great video Lance. Been using the VST refractometers for years, and the Atago always reminded me a lot of the first "ExtractMojo" refractomer that Vince of VST made. I still have mine and yes, it works. Just requires calibration quite often and it's very finicky with temperature. At home it's great, but I don't understand any professional environment that doesn't go for the VST Lab refractometer. It's SO much easier to use, doesn't require calibration very often, hard to destroy and gives very accurate readings (also accounts somewhat for temperature fluctuations, although cooling the sample is still super important). The money a coffee shop spends on this is by far returned in quality, providing the baristas know how to properly use it. Also, thanks for saving me the money on those two cheaper alternatives. Glad I can skip testing them myself, now you've done all the hard work :)
No issue with the audio, i can understand anything you say and that's what matters. This is an amazing video on a topic that is extremely interesting and yet quite scary if you do not have all this info available. I have to say that i am quite disappointed with di fluid, i hoped that it was a better tool. I cannot justify to pay more for a refractometer as a home Barista. Thanks again for this info, videos like this and the one about about paper filters are what makes your content so much special imo. Explaining "nerdy" and intimidating concepts in such an understandable way is truly a talent. Keep up the great and educational content :).
Thank you for the great video! A lot of work went into it and the explanations are really good and easy to follow! This is the important fact, not the quality of the sound. Yours has become one of the best coffee channels on YT. Keep up the good work and thank you for it!
you’re awesome, this video is awesome, your channel is awesome. can’t believe how accessible you make coffee to our industry, thanks again for providing such insane knowledge without a paywall. seriously hope the negative nancys in these comments move beyond their tunnel vision for good audio with bold assumptions, and instead appreciate the good work that you do for our awesome industry. cheers Lance!
Finally a video about refractometers :D by none other but our fav coffee nerd. The audio is way better this time around. Some fellas might've had a bad coffee day cause it takes time and effort to set up in a new place. No need to be rude, just sip back ☕ relax.
I really thought I knew how refractometer's and tds worked but you still taught me so many things... thanks for the great content as always!! Very helpful
Wow! Watched every second with great joy! Paused to take some notes. This is the video I needed the most! I’ve been looking for this information for the past month & I can’t believe how this vid was made for EVERY question I had thought of, and more! Thanks for the effort. And oh by the way, I am watching while traveling with the car audio, and it’s perfectly fine. If people hate the sound, they should look at the positive (the effort put in).
Hi Lance, one thing to consider regarding accuracy of Difluid: While I think it's clear from your testing that the Difluid calibration drifts much more than the more expensive options, a less exhaustive test from Lifestyle Labs seems to suggest that his unit is quite accurate (under ideal conditions with calibration every test). Not implying his tests are right and yours are wrong. There could be some QC issues/unit-unit variation. Also, I suspect some of the reading drift you experienced within a single test (when you hit test again after letting it sit for a time) are largely evaporative in nature, and also maybe a function of temperature stabilization. My rationale is as follows: Difluid has a MUCH smaller sample dish. Because of this, the surface area to volume ratio of the Difluid sample is much higher than any of the other units. This means that differences due to evaporation (which occurs at the sample's surface) will have a much more significant impact on readings. Add the fact that the sample is open/exposed to air (unless using the magic lid) and you have a lot more opportunity for evaporation. This is certainly a design flaw of theDifluid, but I think it's a point worth clarifying and/or exploring further in a future video. Also, others have noted that the materials/design of the dish in Difluid make it much less temperature stable, and thus subject to temperature/reading drift until temperature does stabilize. No doubt these flaws make it a less appealing product, but they are distinctly different criticisms than concluding it has accuracy issues in general. I loved the video by the way, just thought I'd offer some constructive thoughts/ideas. Keep em coming, Dan
Interestingly I just finished playing with the Difluid a few hours before watching the video. I took 3 different espresso shots ranging from a stac-tamp to a regular tamped. Took 3 measurements and averaged for every shot, I did use way too much sample and no filter. The readings were very close (21.94;21.86;21.88%) or (22.67;22.79;22.70) etc. I did not clean with alcohol, did use distilled and a lint free microfiber. Did touch the lens with the paper towel a few times, oops. I have no idea if these readings were accurate but I believe to get a baseline it seemed pretty stable. All shots were room temperature and I used a glass pipette, did reuse the same one but cleaned out with distilled for every sample. Will try the spoon method in future to compare. Think in a home environment the difluid is fine assuming these numbers were accurate 😬.
Forgot to mention the difluid has a pretty good app, does the EY calculation and has a chart if it's bitter, strong, underdeveloped, etc. It was not mentioned in the video and I appreciate not having to calculate myself, just enter the dosage and output for espresso.
Evaporation doesn't mean nearly as much as you think. Gagne had proven this. And I've taken WAY more than these 20 readings. I know people want an affordable unit but this isn't it. I've also compared numbers with at least a dozen other coffee pros who have a solid measuring methodology.
@@LanceHedrick idk man, it might not pay the bills entirely but i think I've watched your like 40+ minute long deep dives into gear and concepts like, 8+ times each 😂, 8 whole views! Just lil ol me! That's like what, $0.0004 in TH-cam premium revenue? Yeah they totally pay creators fairly and reasonably... Nah but actually tho, I just like putting long form informative food/coffee videos on while I work/do stuff around the apartment. They're excellent, i totally get it if they don't drive engagement but I genuinely love every single one. Thanks for the content. (Brb while i go remember you have a patreon, and go actually compensate you lol what a wild concept)
Thanks for geeking out. Will keep my 150euro in my pocket and keep my TDS by taste measurement ;) I was tempted by all the difluid commercial posts going by but there had to be a disclaimer to account for the price difference from 150 to 400 euro.
Great video Lance, thanks. Tap water has TDS inside. Sometimes, almost none, (30ppm at my place ) Sometimes a lot (600 at my in-laws) so imo, tds from brew water should be removed since it vary so much. Calibrating with brew water would automatically remove tds from brew water and this way you can talk about extractions. It doesn't make senses trying to have the most precise % without addressing this major variable .
This is why I said I'd let the scientists respond. Let me go grab Gagne or Smrke to respond to this. Also, I've personally taken readings with coffees using 40ppm water and 250ppm water and the final tds was the same (with calibration at 0)
@@ncokicsi as long as it is pure enough (RO filtered or light mineral) you'll be fine zeroing with your brewing water. Distilled water is recommended when absolute precision is a must (lab grade work) but for coffee business ain't that necessary TBH
Agree with you. Your refractometer must be used to measure extractions. You don't need absolute zero. Just need to rule out your water TDS (as long as you brew with soft water) In case your water is hard I'd suggest to try a purer sample to calibrate the sensor. DiFluid was so kind and sent me their coffee refractometer. From my tests, i find it accurate enough, fast enough and really affordable for what it offers. The app works great. The device itself is really compact and clean. Nice build quality and clear display. Can't complain for what it is and it's main purpose. People, yeah, there are certainly other high-end devices on the market and if you're seriously into coffee research and need a high precision tool, well, that comes at a much higher price tag, as expected. But for most people, home baristas, enthusiasts, Atago or even the baby DiFluid will do the trick really well if you're patient, careful and take your time to understand your findings. Coffee science is beautiful and rich but this ain't like landing people on Mars. This is coffee and regardless of how expensive or precise your refractometer is, taste is the ultimate judge.
I'd like to know what you use for your espresso water or what you would recommend for someone? Above all I want it to taste good, but I'm reading it should be soft water and be under a certain TDS and yada yada.
This is dope, thank you! I used to use those little plastic refractometers in beer brewing, they usually measure in °Brix, °Plato and/or Specific Gravity
@@LanceHedrick and I can only imagine a refractometer would be much more accurate! Lighting is frustrating for sure; those plastic ones can definitely be open to interpretation haha Thanks again and thank you for the response! I hope you have a fantastic adventure abroad my guy🙏
Lance, if you can track one down, I would suggest using a Rode Lavalier Go. It's an inexpensive lav that can plug into your phone and just sync the audio in post. I did an interview with one at a lofty roastery a few years back and the audio turned out great. I've heard good things about Deity lav mics but have never used them.
Yeah! I have one. Issue here was the room had insane reverbs and I didn't have a solution for it in the pinch I was in. We were supposed to be in my studio but there were last minute delays. Thanks for the comment!
This video reminds me, I once noticed that VST refractometers look a LOT like Misco refractometers. Except Misco has refractometers for a wide range of domains, but not for coffee. And VST is like twice the price of a Misco. So, would a reading from a Misco plus some calculation actually give a good reading and save money? This is left as an exercise for the vlogger. ;)
For someone who has never used a refractometer outside of coffee, how do those made for other stuff differ from the ones we use in coffee? I get that some might be better for liquids with a higher TDS. But for those that is used to measure similar concentrations, why can't we just use those?
@@sebastiancph I think that's a very good question. I have never used one myself (not even for coffee), and have only recently browsed a few pages on the topic, so take the following with the appropriate level of caution. :) AFAIK all refractometers measure how much light is refracted (deviated) in a certain medium (liquid). Some people say they measure "the speed of light", which is technically true (there is a direct relation between the refractive index and the speed of light in a medium), but the measure itself relies on measuring how much a ray of light deviates. A number of application domains can make use of a refractometer for their own purposes. For instance, wine makers want to know how much sugar there is in a liquid (I think both in grapes before harvest, and at later stages). Same with beer. There are different assumptions in each domain, for example the presence of alcohol can influence the result. As a result, many domains use their own particular scale: sugar concentration is one example, TDS for coffee is another. A scale is nothing more than a table matching a measurement value to a useful value in the application domain: from refraction index to sugar, for example. The Brix scale is typically used for sugar, and is a very common scale. Some people have established that for coffee, TDS can be derived from Degrees Brix with a simple formula: TDS = 0.85 * Brix Now, looking at Misco, they offer customized refractometers: www.misco.com/build-your-own-refractometer/ So it seems to me that the same hardware is simply programmed with different scales, and the precision of hardware simply dictates precision for a certain application domain. And my conclusion is that I tend to agree with you, i.e. it seems likely that refractometers for domains requiring similar precision should be mostly interchangeable. It's only a "small matter of testing". ;)
Thank you so much for this ultimate showdown Lance! Greatly appreciate it! I was a little surprised, though, that the DiFluid performed so badly, especially given some of the recent reviews such as the review by Lifestyle Lab or the one by Robert McKeon Aloe, both of which seem to suggest the DiFluid is as accurate as the Atago (or VST) IF the sample is allowed to properly cool before measurement. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on what may explain this discrepancy? In any case, I hope many more coffee folk like you will subject the DiFluid to an in-depth review and comparison, so we can all benefit and learn from more empirical data. It would be awesome to have an affordable refractometer for home baristas. Cheers!
It is interesting. They are literally the only two I know who have had positive results. I've spoken with about a dozen others who have had other results
I can confim the DiFluid unit I have is not measuring anywhere near correct and the company is pretty quick to swipe negative comments under the rug on their social media.
As a PhD in chemistry and molecular biology, I think zero with DI water, take TDS reading of brew water and the take TDS of extracted liquid makes real sense. The brew water will definitely have impact on the final TDS reading, which in turn affect the extraction yield calculation.
43 mins video with no ads and full of content, this is a lot of work and I should say thank you for all of your work. I have a Difluid and also find that the reading is not reliable, but until I have finished your video, I do not know the procedure of sampling and calibration is that important and I think I have messed up with my previous test. I would still recommend the cheaper options even if they are not reliable, for espresso newbie like me. As sometimes it is not easy to taste the different between bitter and sour at the begining, the EY readying give you a very rough idea of where you at and help you made adjustment. But once you have calibrated your taste buds, you should be much more reliable then the cheaper options.
It makes sense to calibrate the instrument with distilled water, but the issue of stuff already dissolved in the brew water before it hits the grounds does still stand... What about TDSing the raw brew water separately, though? And then, um, subtracting that from the reading you get for the brew, in order to get whatever's been dissolved from the coffee? Hopefully the number of question marks gives away that I've no idea what I'm talking about, just kinda using my usual engineer logic to get to some hypotheses. In fact, I came here to try and figure out whether I want to get myself one of these or not... Oh, and by the way.. Is there any source for a detailed derivation of the extraction percentage formulae you provide in the video that I could dive into? I can't seem to quite grasp the logic behind some parts of those, especially the 1/1-C factor...
I’m watching this a year later. Has DiFluid rehearsed their improved model? If so, which one is it? Is it the R2? If so, have you tested it yet (personally, not necessarily in a YT video)?
Nice video. Being a chemist myself, I have been wondering about how these devices are meaningfully used in the coffee industry. I can see that a cafe might be interested in this to reduce cost by maximizing extraction, but at home I am more concerned about not over-extracting or channelling an espresso shot than getting maximum extraction. I do not want the tails pour over flavors in my espresso shot, as I sometimes get in coffee shops. If I want more flavor I can always up the dosage a bit as long as I do not get over caffeinated by doing so.
You can actually push extraction a lot more if you are doing a good job of mitigating channels. Plus, at home, you can realize at what drinking stregnth and EY you like so you can waste less coffee in the future dialing in!
Hi Lance !!! Congratulations for your great performance of the video editing, the transitions, the intro and I really loved the quality of the images. Nice job i really appreciate!!👌
Great video as always Lance! This is super helpful because I have been having a really hard time figuring out if the yellow boi was accurate for taking actual measurements. I’ve seen a lot of people using it, but very little hard data on it. Guess I’ll be waiting for the technology to catch up with my budget haha
Dude this is extremely valuable content. It's a shame audio is not the best. I know you are working with a professional team, and don't wanna be disrespectful at all; but if you get bad audio in the future, send me a DM and I will try to improve it in post as much as I can.
I wish I listened to you. I bought the R2 because of the price but it gives wildly differing results for the same sample of coffee leading to extraction yields between 18-21% for the same sample. Which one do I believe? The R2 is garbage in my opinion.
Great video. I wonder about immersion brews though-- even though we say the retained liquid is the same concentration as the beverage, in reality that's kind of hard to prove, isn't it? I'm imagining a French press that's been brewed and decanted. If I squeeze out enough liquid from the grounds to take a sample, is it going to match the rest of the brew? Kind of want to test this now.
Lance, great work as always, you have the best in-depth coffee videos hands down. The content speaks for itself and I can only imagine the amount of effort you put into it. Indeed the audio isn't great on this one, but isn’t terrible either. I completely forgot about it after a few minutes.
While it’s true that the content needs to be valuable, nowadays it’s really not that hard to get great audio even when moving continents or continued traveling. One example would be using a mic like the rode wireless go. Even with the phone the audio will be professional and match the quality of this content. Many watchers don’t want to Listen to mediocre audio. That’s not negativity. It’s just personal preference. And that’s ok. Still love your content lance and can’t wait for more.
Isn't the extraction different using distilled water? So I understand, that the refractomer may not read correctly or you would need to do a correction to account for the TDS of your water pre-brew, but as far as I know, water has different extractive qualities at different alkalinity and TDS rates and different minerals. So it would make sense to test it using the water that actually does the extraction. Is there no way to calculate a water correction?
What about popping your brewed V60 filter in a dehydrator to then measure by weight (subtracting the weight of the filter) how much you extracted. That should get you sort of in the ballpark right?
excellet video. it would be interesting to compare the results of VST/atago with the oven drying method with home equipment and/or lab equipment (if you can get your hands on some)
Awesome video Lance! Gonna wait a little longer for a cheaper alternative, an also since taking care of the refractometer is so important, I will not buy it in the used market. Thanks :D
Is there any point in using refractometers that are meant for beer/spirits, to get ballpark idea. i.e. alcometer or brix meter. I’m guessing they are not sensitive enough or are on the wrong scale. 🤷♂️
Hey! It just depends on the brewing itself. They each have slightly different effects. Think about how a French press extracts vs a percolation. Because one has water passing thru (doesn't account for water in slurry) and the other is same concentration as that in the slurry, they need to be treated differently.
Are you able to install sound panels on the walls and ceiling? It isnt about cutting all reverb and making a sound proof room but making the reflections sound less harsh
His studio is getting propper sound treatment. This space was a temporary space he was allowed to use while his studio is being built (it's basically ready now though I think)
dude, i love it, best video of all time! excited to explore the nfc option on my atago! fwiw, i do the ‘lance dump’ and just run the atago dish under the tap for a few seconds before wiping with a microfiber cloth, i personally don’t bother with distilled or isopropyl alcohol and haven’t had any issues (ie: same parameter brews within 0.03% or less) funny story, i got schooled a long time ago by my buddy caleb for not zeroing my refractometer, the last time i had zeroed it was in a different season and so my reading was off by more than 0.1%!
Definitely need to calibrate often! And with the same temp as your room temp or you'll get skewed readings! Glad you enjoyed the video, though! And gotta love the dump haha
Good info in this video, and thanks for links (but why have links to 2 refractometers you tells us not to buy? -- I believe you, the good ones, eg, VST, work, and the cheap ones probably don't). I considered buying a VST for home a few years ago, but never did, and in hindsight I think if I would have bought one, I would have used it once or twice, and then left it on the self, instead using my taste buds as my sole guide. VST has fun app, Coffee Tools, on iphone. I play with it occasionally. I think the video might have benefitted from seeing the readings on VST, TDS and extractions values, ie, here's the theory in a shortened form, see link below for more detail, and videos using the meters, showing results. You did 10 hours of testing, etc, and no edited video of that? Again, I believe you, but it would have been more interesting to see some selected moments of it. my 2 cents.
If you were in my discord, you would've seen about 2 hours of it. I do a lot of testing live for patreon supporters. I put links because some people will still buy them and if they are going to anyway, I might as well get a small kickback to help with my channel. Cheers
No pressure at all to join! Just saying I do a lot of stuff there because it is impossible to pump out everything in a polished manner. So, some of the privileges of being in the discord include things like live chats in preparation for videos
Lance, thanks for this video. I own the yellow boy and gotta admit I'm a little upset. I've always been using Gagne's chart to convert from brix(yellow boy) to Standard TDS. And I thought it was good enough. In the video, you mentioned that yellow boy readings are typically understated, which which even after conversion, it's still an undercalculation? Cheers
It would seem the yellow ones are extremely hit or miss. I have friends who have theirs read close to 30%extraction often and assume who read like mine. Just not a reliable machine at all.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W2D2 | Fall | เครื่องร้อน พร้อมลุย](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JO2_bLow_1Y/mqdefault.jpg)
OK people. I understand audio isn't great. I just moved continents and am still trying to get everything set up. I'm filming in a coffee school and the echo is quite bad, distorting audio. This has great info in it, so give it a try. If not, no worries!
Cheers
It's not that bad (just my opinion, but as an audio engineer, I can only say it could be way worse and is really just a bit reverby). There *could have been* noise, clipping-related distortion, phasing issues, but there's only a bit of reverb-not that bad and not worth getting upset over.
Don't let the moaners spoil the pride and accomplishment of your work
Thank you! Especially since you're an AE, means a lot
I was so mesmerized by the moustache I forgot to actually listen to the video anyway
@@alexblank91 yeah also a professional audio engineer and its just a little far away in a room w a lot of hard surfaces. Im not hearing any audible clipping. Agree its no issue
Yeah, I found the audio to be annoying, so I stopped the video after about 10 seconds. I guess I’ll watch it with captions.
Definitely get a lapel mic. Rode has a nice wireless one for a reasonable price.
And yes, the space is poor for audio. If you can hang blankets behind the camera, it would help a lot, even with a lavalier mic on your shirt.
As they say, audio is more than 50% of video!
I just don’t understand why so many people on here are quick to bring up negativity with Lance’s channel. The dude seems super chill, and he’s giving us info we enjoy. He’s allowed to have an opinion, and his audio is fine…the amount of rude comments is so irritating.
Lance is a great person. And his videos have passion and love in them. What more can anyone ask for?
@@EricPetersen2922 exactly!!
Thank you so much!
I’m 15 seconds in but I would imagine people are commenting on the hollow echo sound. It’s not good. Such comments are constructive feedback. Not hating but his content is good so presentation should rise as well. Love you, Lance.
Oh some comments were constructive. Saying "damn, terrible audio" is not constructive at all
Is the audio perfect? Nope. The lighting the best? Nah.
Is it the content we need? Absolutely. We all see these being used but struggle to decipher price and necessity.
You’re the real hero here Lance.
thank you, brandon! Appreciate the support
I went through 7 different microphone/audio setups over 2 years before finally being satisfied with what I've got - it takes time people! Video is still understandable enough to learn from :)
For sure! But also, this was a location with bad reverb. Will be better in my studio!
As a former laboratory scientist, I really enjoy the detailed explanation on calculations, careful calibration and care for instruments, and data-driven conclusions. As always, thank you for the good work!
Thank you for the kind words!
Glad this video went out before I bought a budget refractometer. Love the super in depth scientific videos. Got 2 pages of notes out of this video and probably more after I write down the workflow.
Thanks as always, Lance!
Oh wow! I love hearing you took notes! Makes me feel like i'm teaching undergrad courses again. Thank you!
Brilliant video. So much info that touches on so many important things, especially the methodology which can get forgotten about when it's a refractometer that lives on a bar.
One thing I'd like to share; it's not perfect, but a budget alternative to VST filters that I was shown is using an aeropress filter folded into quarters, like a chemex paper. Again, not perfect, but at least its a lot less waste than the VST syringe method.
This is true and something I used exclusively prior to this video haha!
Great video Lance. Been using the VST refractometers for years, and the Atago always reminded me a lot of the first "ExtractMojo" refractomer that Vince of VST made. I still have mine and yes, it works. Just requires calibration quite often and it's very finicky with temperature. At home it's great, but I don't understand any professional environment that doesn't go for the VST Lab refractometer. It's SO much easier to use, doesn't require calibration very often, hard to destroy and gives very accurate readings (also accounts somewhat for temperature fluctuations, although cooling the sample is still super important). The money a coffee shop spends on this is by far returned in quality, providing the baristas know how to properly use it.
Also, thanks for saving me the money on those two cheaper alternatives. Glad I can skip testing them myself, now you've done all the hard work :)
I’m seriously waiting for the Hance Ledrick TH-cam channel. Awesome info as always to geek out about.
This video saved my life during an intermediate barista class I was really struggling with! Thank you!!!!
This has to be the only video on coffee that ive watched that filled so much of my notebook hahahhaaa, the replay factor on this video alone is insane
No issue with the audio, i can understand anything you say and that's what matters. This is an amazing video on a topic that is extremely interesting and yet quite scary if you do not have all this info available. I have to say that i am quite disappointed with di fluid, i hoped that it was a better tool. I cannot justify to pay more for a refractometer as a home Barista. Thanks again for this info, videos like this and the one about about paper filters are what makes your content so much special imo. Explaining "nerdy" and intimidating concepts in such an understandable way is truly a talent. Keep up the great and educational content :).
Thank you so much! Really means a lot!
Yay been waiting for this, I bought one of Ali express but don't really know what I'm doing so glad to learn how to actually use my new toy
Hope you enjoy it!
@@LanceHedrick well I do own a yellow boi so maybe I should just retire it..."hello darkness my old friend " 😁🤣
What a good song to put jt down to lol
Double the Lance Moments! What a value!
Haha thank you!
Thank you for the great video! A lot of work went into it and the explanations are really good and easy to follow! This is the important fact, not the quality of the sound. Yours has become one of the best coffee channels on YT. Keep up the good work and thank you for it!
Thank you, Peter! That truly means a lot. Happy you enjoyed the video!
you’re awesome, this video is awesome, your channel is awesome. can’t believe how accessible you make coffee to our industry, thanks again for providing such insane knowledge without a paywall. seriously hope the negative nancys in these comments move beyond their tunnel vision for good audio with bold assumptions, and instead appreciate the good work that you do for our awesome industry. cheers Lance!
Cheers! I am constantly amazed at how involved one can get with coffee brewing and the science behind it!
Finally a video about refractometers :D by none other but our fav coffee nerd.
The audio is way better this time around. Some fellas might've had a bad coffee day cause it takes time and effort to set up in a new place. No need to be rude, just sip back ☕ relax.
Thank you! Really appreciate it. Next video will be even better.
Sunday night perfect for this one 😀 thanks for all the joy and share of knowledge you provide 👍
haha hope it didn't lull you to sleep! haha
I really thought I knew how refractometer's and tds worked but you still taught me so many things... thanks for the great content as always!! Very helpful
Great! So glad you enjoyed it!
Wow! Watched every second with great joy! Paused to take some notes. This is the video I needed the most! I’ve been looking for this information for the past month & I can’t believe how this vid was made for EVERY question I had thought of, and more! Thanks for the effort.
And oh by the way, I am watching while traveling with the car audio, and it’s perfectly fine. If people hate the sound, they should look at the positive (the effort put in).
Love the intro, your videos are always a highlight of my day. Keep the the great work!
Thank you so much! I appreciate it loads
Very important video for the industry at large! Well done
thank you! Means a lot! Appreciate you
Thank you for diving into the nerdy stuff!
So grateful for this indepth review! Thank you 👍🏻
I‘ve got „the yellow one“ since a few years and was waiting for a video like this! Thank you so much! I think I need to wish an other for christmas 😅
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Have you tried the Difluid R2 yet? Seems to have addressed the issues you identified
Hi Lance, one thing to consider regarding accuracy of Difluid:
While I think it's clear from your testing that the Difluid calibration drifts much more than the more expensive options, a less exhaustive test from Lifestyle Labs seems to suggest that his unit is quite accurate (under ideal conditions with calibration every test). Not implying his tests are right and yours are wrong. There could be some QC issues/unit-unit variation.
Also, I suspect some of the reading drift you experienced within a single test (when you hit test again after letting it sit for a time) are largely evaporative in nature, and also maybe a function of temperature stabilization. My rationale is as follows: Difluid has a MUCH smaller sample dish. Because of this, the surface area to volume ratio of the Difluid sample is much higher than any of the other units. This means that differences due to evaporation (which occurs at the sample's surface) will have a much more significant impact on readings.
Add the fact that the sample is open/exposed to air (unless using the magic lid) and you have a lot more opportunity for evaporation. This is certainly a design flaw of theDifluid, but I think it's a point worth clarifying and/or exploring further in a future video.
Also, others have noted that the materials/design of the dish in Difluid make it much less temperature stable, and thus subject to temperature/reading drift until temperature does stabilize. No doubt these flaws make it a less appealing product, but they are distinctly different criticisms than concluding it has accuracy issues in general.
I loved the video by the way, just thought I'd offer some constructive thoughts/ideas.
Keep em coming,
Dan
Interestingly I just finished playing with the Difluid a few hours before watching the video. I took 3 different espresso shots ranging from a stac-tamp to a regular tamped. Took 3 measurements and averaged for every shot, I did use way too much sample and no filter. The readings were very close (21.94;21.86;21.88%) or (22.67;22.79;22.70) etc. I did not clean with alcohol, did use distilled and a lint free microfiber. Did touch the lens with the paper towel a few times, oops. I have no idea if these readings were accurate but I believe to get a baseline it seemed pretty stable. All shots were room temperature and I used a glass pipette, did reuse the same one but cleaned out with distilled for every sample. Will try the spoon method in future to compare. Think in a home environment the difluid is fine assuming these numbers were accurate 😬.
Forgot to mention the difluid has a pretty good app, does the EY calculation and has a chart if it's bitter, strong, underdeveloped, etc. It was not mentioned in the video and I appreciate not having to calculate myself, just enter the dosage and output for espresso.
Evaporation doesn't mean nearly as much as you think. Gagne had proven this. And I've taken WAY more than these 20 readings. I know people want an affordable unit but this isn't it. I've also compared numbers with at least a dozen other coffee pros who have a solid measuring methodology.
Should be noted I do say it is sufficient for espresso. And the graphs say as much. Just don't rely on it when comparing with users of atago or vst
Been waiting for this one for a long time!! Thanks Lance!
Hope it lived up to your expectations!
I appreciate such thorough review
A fun video to see, would be you tasting difference brews of different TDS, and seeing if you can guess the TDS. Awesome video!
Oh that would be fun! Can definitely tell TDS within .1. Have done this a few times. Need to think of a way to make that into a video!
Thank you very much for this in-depth video Lance.
thank you, Devon, for watching!
Yo this was incredible, this is why lance was an INSTANT sub for me a while back, the clarity and attention to detail is unparalleled. So fuckin good.
Thank you so much! These are my favorite videos to make but usually get the least love. Appreciate it!
@@LanceHedrick idk man, it might not pay the bills entirely but i think I've watched your like 40+ minute long deep dives into gear and concepts like, 8+ times each 😂, 8 whole views! Just lil ol me! That's like what, $0.0004 in TH-cam premium revenue? Yeah they totally pay creators fairly and reasonably... Nah but actually tho, I just like putting long form informative food/coffee videos on while I work/do stuff around the apartment. They're excellent, i totally get it if they don't drive engagement but I genuinely love every single one. Thanks for the content. (Brb while i go remember you have a patreon, and go actually compensate you lol what a wild concept)
Really appreciate this! I'll always do long form as one style simply because they're my favorite. But super stoked to hear you vibe with them!
@Lance Hedrick You're like Google, you deliver the video I need before I even clicked "search" button 😃
haha! Love the predictive TH-cam. lol
"a Lance moment"...I get it. I totally relate.
hahaha those things are LOONNGGGGG
Another great content Lance!!! Keep up the great work. ❤
thank you so much! Really appreciate the support!
Heck yeah, Love this kind of content!
haha thank you! So glad you enjoyed it, Noah!
Thanks for geeking out. Will keep my 150euro in my pocket and keep my TDS by taste measurement ;) I was tempted by all the difluid commercial posts going by but there had to be a disclaimer to account for the price difference from 150 to 400 euro.
for sure! Your tongue is just as accurate haha!
Great video Lance, thanks. Tap water has TDS inside. Sometimes, almost none, (30ppm at my place ) Sometimes a lot (600 at my in-laws) so imo, tds from brew water should be removed since it vary so much. Calibrating with brew water would automatically remove tds from brew water and this way you can talk about extractions. It doesn't make senses trying to have the most precise % without addressing this major variable .
This is why I said I'd let the scientists respond. Let me go grab Gagne or Smrke to respond to this.
Also, I've personally taken readings with coffees using 40ppm water and 250ppm water and the final tds was the same (with calibration at 0)
@@LanceHedrick Brewing water tds and its dissolving power (at same temperature and ATM pressure) are inversely proportional.
i usually calibrate with the same water i used for coffee making
@@ncokicsi as long as it is pure enough (RO filtered or light mineral) you'll be fine zeroing with your brewing water. Distilled water is recommended when absolute precision is a must (lab grade work) but for coffee business ain't that necessary TBH
Agree with you.
Your refractometer must be used to measure extractions. You don't need absolute zero. Just need to rule out your water TDS (as long as you brew with soft water)
In case your water is hard I'd suggest to try a purer sample to calibrate the sensor.
DiFluid was so kind and sent me their coffee refractometer. From my tests, i find it accurate enough, fast enough and really affordable for what it offers. The app works great. The device itself is really compact and clean. Nice build quality and clear display. Can't complain for what it is and it's main purpose.
People, yeah, there are certainly other high-end devices on the market and if you're seriously into coffee research and need a high precision tool, well, that comes at a much higher price tag, as expected. But for most people, home baristas, enthusiasts, Atago or even the baby DiFluid will do the trick really well if you're patient, careful and take your time to understand your findings.
Coffee science is beautiful and rich but this ain't like landing people on Mars.
This is coffee and regardless of how expensive or precise your refractometer is, taste is the ultimate judge.
Eagerly awaiting Lance's coffee bean electron microspocy video.
I'd like to know what you use for your espresso water or what you would recommend for someone? Above all I want it to taste good, but I'm reading it should be soft water and be under a certain TDS and yada yada.
Amazing content, thank you!
This is dope, thank you! I used to use those little plastic refractometers in beer brewing, they usually measure in °Brix, °Plato and/or Specific Gravity
Yeah- those do a decent job at brix. The conversion is a bit wonky, though, so having a refractometer is nice if tryign to nerd out!
@@LanceHedrick and I can only imagine a refractometer would be much more accurate! Lighting is frustrating for sure; those plastic ones can definitely be open to interpretation haha
Thanks again and thank you for the response! I hope you have a fantastic adventure abroad my guy🙏
Lance, if you can track one down, I would suggest using a Rode Lavalier Go. It's an inexpensive lav that can plug into your phone and just sync the audio in post. I did an interview with one at a lofty roastery a few years back and the audio turned out great. I've heard good things about Deity lav mics but have never used them.
Yeah! I have one. Issue here was the room had insane reverbs and I didn't have a solution for it in the pinch I was in. We were supposed to be in my studio but there were last minute delays. Thanks for the comment!
Awesome video Lance, thank you
thank you so much!
This video reminds me, I once noticed that VST refractometers look a LOT like Misco refractometers.
Except Misco has refractometers for a wide range of domains, but not for coffee. And VST is like twice the price of a Misco.
So, would a reading from a Misco plus some calculation actually give a good reading and save money? This is left as an exercise for the vlogger. ;)
I'll need to get one! I doubt it will be as accurate but always happy to test!
For someone who has never used a refractometer outside of coffee, how do those made for other stuff differ from the ones we use in coffee? I get that some might be better for liquids with a higher TDS. But for those that is used to measure similar concentrations, why can't we just use those?
@@sebastiancph I think that's a very good question. I have never used one myself (not even for coffee), and have only recently browsed a few pages on the topic, so take the following with the appropriate level of caution. :)
AFAIK all refractometers measure how much light is refracted (deviated) in a certain medium (liquid). Some people say they measure "the speed of light", which is technically true (there is a direct relation between the refractive index and the speed of light in a medium), but the measure itself relies on measuring how much a ray of light deviates.
A number of application domains can make use of a refractometer for their own purposes. For instance, wine makers want to know how much sugar there is in a liquid (I think both in grapes before harvest, and at later stages). Same with beer. There are different assumptions in each domain, for example the presence of alcohol can influence the result. As a result, many domains use their own particular scale: sugar concentration is one example, TDS for coffee is another. A scale is nothing more than a table matching a measurement value to a useful value in the application domain: from refraction index to sugar, for example.
The Brix scale is typically used for sugar, and is a very common scale. Some people have established that for coffee, TDS can be derived from Degrees Brix with a simple formula: TDS = 0.85 * Brix
Now, looking at Misco, they offer customized refractometers: www.misco.com/build-your-own-refractometer/
So it seems to me that the same hardware is simply programmed with different scales, and the precision of hardware simply dictates precision for a certain application domain.
And my conclusion is that I tend to agree with you, i.e. it seems likely that refractometers for domains requiring similar precision should be mostly interchangeable. It's only a "small matter of testing". ;)
@@jmsaffroy your comment is very interesting and I hope someone with the kproper knowledge will make a video about this. Thank you!
Heck yeah Lance been waiting for someone to put out a video about refractometers
Hope you enjoy!
the small white one is also sold by Time More.
I paid 78$. and yes, it doesn't show constant values.
need to find out how to use it.
People need to chill. I mix records and for a super informative video that I’m watching on my phone, the audio is not that bad.
I appreciate the work Lance!
Thank you sincerely!
great video my friend
Thank you so much for this ultimate showdown Lance! Greatly appreciate it!
I was a little surprised, though, that the DiFluid performed so badly, especially given some of the recent reviews such as the review by Lifestyle Lab or the one by Robert McKeon Aloe, both of which seem to suggest the DiFluid is as accurate as the Atago (or VST) IF the sample is allowed to properly cool before measurement.
I was wondering if you had any thoughts on what may explain this discrepancy? In any case, I hope many more coffee folk like you will subject the DiFluid to an in-depth review and comparison, so we can all benefit and learn from more empirical data. It would be awesome to have an affordable refractometer for home baristas. Cheers!
It is interesting. They are literally the only two I know who have had positive results. I've spoken with about a dozen others who have had other results
I can confim the DiFluid unit I have is not measuring anywhere near correct and the company is pretty quick to swipe negative comments under the rug on their social media.
As a PhD in chemistry and molecular biology, I think zero with DI water, take TDS reading of brew water and the take TDS of extracted liquid makes real sense. The brew water will definitely have impact on the final TDS reading, which in turn affect the extraction yield calculation.
I work with a PhD in chemistry at Uni of Zurich and he begs to differ
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
I have a question what do you think of HM digital refractometer?.
Hey Lance, will you be reviewing the Kafmasino? I saw it in the background of one of your videos. Hope you are doing well. -T
Love the video Lance!
thank you so much!
43 mins video with no ads and full of content, this is a lot of work and I should say thank you for all of your work.
I have a Difluid and also find that the reading is not reliable, but until I have finished your video, I do not know the procedure of sampling and calibration is that important and I think I have messed up with my previous test.
I would still recommend the cheaper options even if they are not reliable, for espresso newbie like me. As sometimes it is not easy to taste the different between bitter and sour at the begining, the EY readying give you a very rough idea of where you at and help you made adjustment. But once you have calibrated your taste buds, you should be much more reliable then the cheaper options.
DiFluid for espresso really isn't awful, as the data suggests. It is quite terrible for filter, though! lol
It makes sense to calibrate the instrument with distilled water, but the issue of stuff already dissolved in the brew water before it hits the grounds does still stand... What about TDSing the raw brew water separately, though? And then, um, subtracting that from the reading you get for the brew, in order to get whatever's been dissolved from the coffee? Hopefully the number of question marks gives away that I've no idea what I'm talking about, just kinda using my usual engineer logic to get to some hypotheses. In fact, I came here to try and figure out whether I want to get myself one of these or not...
Oh, and by the way.. Is there any source for a detailed derivation of the extraction percentage formulae you provide in the video that I could dive into? I can't seem to quite grasp the logic behind some parts of those, especially the 1/1-C factor...
I’m watching this a year later. Has DiFluid rehearsed their improved model? If so, which one is it? Is it the R2? If so, have you tested it yet (personally, not necessarily in a YT video)?
Nice video. Being a chemist myself, I have been wondering about how these devices are meaningfully used in the coffee industry.
I can see that a cafe might be interested in this to reduce cost by maximizing extraction, but at home I am more concerned about not over-extracting or channelling an espresso shot than getting maximum extraction. I do not want the tails pour over flavors in my espresso shot, as I sometimes get in coffee shops. If I want more flavor I can always up the dosage a bit as long as I do not get over caffeinated by doing so.
You can actually push extraction a lot more if you are doing a good job of mitigating channels. Plus, at home, you can realize at what drinking stregnth and EY you like so you can waste less coffee in the future dialing in!
Hi Lance !!! Congratulations for your great performance of the video editing, the transitions, the intro and I really loved the quality of the images. Nice job i really appreciate!!👌
thank you! Now I have to improve the audiO!
Great video as always Lance!
This is super helpful because I have been having a really hard time figuring out if the yellow boi was accurate for taking actual measurements. I’ve seen a lot of people using it, but very little hard data on it.
Guess I’ll be waiting for the technology to catch up with my budget haha
Thanks for watching! Appreciate the support. And apologies to your future wallet haha!
Waiting for a review of the difluid r2
hey, i learned something today, thanks Lance
fantastic! That is so great to hear!
Dude this is extremely valuable content. It's a shame audio is not the best.
I know you are working with a professional team, and don't wanna be disrespectful at all; but if you get bad audio in the future, send me a DM and I will try to improve it in post as much as I can.
I wish I listened to you. I bought the R2 because of the price but it gives wildly differing results for the same sample of coffee leading to extraction yields between 18-21% for the same sample. Which one do I believe? The R2 is garbage in my opinion.
Great video. I wonder about immersion brews though-- even though we say the retained liquid is the same concentration as the beverage, in reality that's kind of hard to prove, isn't it?
I'm imagining a French press that's been brewed and decanted. If I squeeze out enough liquid from the grounds to take a sample, is it going to match the rest of the brew? Kind of want to test this now.
thanks dude!
great video, so much good info
So glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!
Lance, great work as always, you have the best in-depth coffee videos hands down. The content speaks for itself and I can only imagine the amount of effort you put into it. Indeed the audio isn't great on this one, but isn’t terrible either. I completely forgot about it after a few minutes.
I appreciate it! Always working on making things better, but sometimes, sh*t happens. Thanks for recognizing the hard work!
While it’s true that the content needs to be valuable, nowadays it’s really not that hard to get great audio even when moving continents or continued traveling. One example would be using a mic like the rode wireless go. Even with the phone the audio will be professional and match the quality of this content. Many watchers don’t want to Listen to mediocre audio. That’s not negativity. It’s just personal preference. And that’s ok. Still love your content lance and can’t wait for more.
You realize this is with rode. I'm shooting at a location with bad reverb. I don't have my location yet. Thanks
You can have the best mic in the world but if there is bad echo, you're screwed. I have a nice mic. The room had bad reverb.
Isn't the extraction different using distilled water? So I understand, that the refractomer may not read correctly or you would need to do a correction to account for the TDS of your water pre-brew, but as far as I know, water has different extractive qualities at different alkalinity and TDS rates and different minerals. So it would make sense to test it using the water that actually does the extraction. Is there no way to calculate a water correction?
no. you need to zero with distilled.
Hello, is Difluid R2 a newer version or other kind of refractometer?
Bruh... didn't know this was going to turn into a math class. And here I thought E=MC²
I wish i could write that neatly
Ha! Thank you
What about popping your brewed V60 filter in a dehydrator to then measure by weight (subtracting the weight of the filter) how much you extracted. That should get you sort of in the ballpark right?
excellet video. it would be interesting to compare the results of VST/atago with the oven drying method with home equipment and/or lab equipment (if you can get your hands on some)
For sure. Maybe something for down the line
Awesome video Lance! Gonna wait a little longer for a cheaper alternative, an also since taking care of the refractometer is so important, I will not buy it in the used market. Thanks :D
I agree! And I think they are coming soon!
Is there any point in using refractometers that are meant for beer/spirits, to get ballpark idea. i.e. alcometer or brix meter. I’m guessing they are not sensitive enough or are on the wrong scale. 🤷♂️
I wouldn't. Just brew and enjoy haha
could you share why there are different equations for percolation, immersion, and mixed?
Hey! It just depends on the brewing itself. They each have slightly different effects. Think about how a French press extracts vs a percolation. Because one has water passing thru (doesn't account for water in slurry) and the other is same concentration as that in the slurry, they need to be treated differently.
Did you cover the DiFluid when taking a sample? The reading will change due to evaporation which has a greater effect with just two or three drops.
Great point.
Yes. I also address the nearly negligible effect of evaporation in the video. Thanks
But I did multiple covered vs non covered readings regardless and minimal to no change. So little no correlation could effectively be drawn
Timemore have joined the party, you can get the Atago for half the cost of the VST and you can even get full ISO certification for calibration.
Wait. Is this a joke? do they really have one? I wouldn't be surprised. lol
@@LanceHedrick Sorry it's Timemore not Normcore, but it's not a joke. I'd wager it's the exact same technology is the DiFluid but in black.
I’m a coffee nerd!!!! 😂 literally the name of my channel 🤘☕️
hell yeah! Love it!
I've bought that yellow one in the past, the test variation was so bad that I returned it the day I bought it.
Are you able to install sound panels on the walls and ceiling? It isnt about cutting all reverb and making a sound proof room but making the reflections sound less harsh
His studio is getting propper sound treatment. This space was a temporary space he was allowed to use while his studio is being built (it's basically ready now though I think)
im in uni so the best i can afford is timing how long it takes for the coffee to send me to the bathroom
dude, i love it, best video of all time!
excited to explore the nfc option on my atago!
fwiw, i do the ‘lance dump’ and just run the atago dish under the tap for a few seconds before wiping with a microfiber cloth, i personally don’t bother with distilled or isopropyl alcohol and haven’t had any issues (ie: same parameter brews within 0.03% or less)
funny story, i got schooled a long time ago by my buddy caleb for not zeroing my refractometer, the last time i had zeroed it was in a different season and so my reading was off by more than 0.1%!
Definitely need to calibrate often! And with the same temp as your room temp or you'll get skewed readings! Glad you enjoyed the video, though! And gotta love the dump haha
Best Video on You Tube? Absolutely!
Huge praise! Thank you!
See you at Mice?
Absolutely
Will be on the Coffee Tools Stand minus the beanie & beard. Love the channel, keep up the great work. Ignore the negatives, they are everywhere 😀
Appreciate you!
Someone should do a quick cheat sheet of an infographic of this video thats crazy cool :)
Yes! I'll chat with a friend!
Good info in this video, and thanks for links (but why have links to 2 refractometers you tells us not to buy? -- I believe you, the good ones, eg, VST, work, and the cheap ones probably don't). I considered buying a VST for home a few years ago, but never did, and in hindsight I think if I would have bought one, I would have used it once or twice, and then left it on the self, instead using my taste buds as my sole guide. VST has fun app, Coffee Tools, on iphone. I play with it occasionally. I think the video might have benefitted from seeing the readings on VST, TDS and extractions values, ie, here's the theory in a shortened form, see link below for more detail, and videos using the meters, showing results. You did 10 hours of testing, etc, and no edited video of that? Again, I believe you, but it would have been more interesting to see some selected moments of it. my 2 cents.
If you were in my discord, you would've seen about 2 hours of it. I do a lot of testing live for patreon supporters.
I put links because some people will still buy them and if they are going to anyway, I might as well get a small kickback to help with my channel. Cheers
@@LanceHedrick Thanks for your reply! I'll consider joining your patreon / discord...
No pressure at all to join! Just saying I do a lot of stuff there because it is impossible to pump out everything in a polished manner. So, some of the privileges of being in the discord include things like live chats in preparation for videos
Lance, thanks for this video. I own the yellow boy and gotta admit I'm a little upset. I've always been using Gagne's chart to convert from brix(yellow boy) to Standard TDS. And I thought it was good enough. In the video, you mentioned that yellow boy readings are typically understated, which which even after conversion, it's still an undercalculation? Cheers
It would seem the yellow ones are extremely hit or miss. I have friends who have theirs read close to 30%extraction often and assume who read like mine. Just not a reliable machine at all.
@@LanceHedrick Appreciate your response Lance. Yellow boi has been a bad boi all this while !
That's a video of my life, you're super cool dude.
Haha! Thank you!
Hello,
I bought DiFluid, it comes defective and the support doesn't answer.
Sorry that happened! I have no affiliation with them and didn't recommend the product in this video. Good luck!
How many ft-lb of torque would it take to crush my skull in a 8" bench vise?
Where can I get those metal mushroom cap thing?
My main question is, why can't we just tds meter to measure tds value?
29:34 I'm not sure it makes sense. Isn't a bigger sample more representative of the entire solution than a smaller sample?
No
There's only data for 9 filter brews? Did you use different brew methods for filter?
No- I screwed up transferring my data from paper to computer. I hate computers lol
Who wants to take the over/under on how long it is before $25 coffee refractometers hit the market?
12/24 months?
Weird question. What brand is the server you're using at 18:28
I'm not sure! It is not mine lol