I like that one of the Bison class ships is in Pan Am livery and is a named Clipper. I love that little touch there, and it's very believable that Pan Am World Airways might come back banking on that new spaceship and being a "day one customer"
I'm not convinced that it ever ended, In America the trucking industry has independent owner operator who are since to Cassidy Yates as well as huge trucking companies. But a owner operator has to find loads and have one waiting near the location of their last drop off. I see the Earth cargo service operating even in the 24th century in a dual role they might still have a fleet of vessels for their own hauls and a dispatching service for the owner operators. If you look any in the oceans other than a major naval base, you'll see more civilian ships than naval vessels.
Iv'e always thought that there should have been a STAR TREK series about civilians/civilian ships either involving STARFLEET very little or not Involving STARFLEET at all.Maybe smugglers or civilian transports.
Wouldn't be surprised to see that the ECS continued even through eras like Picard albeit in a diminished capacity. We see numerous times people commenting that real food, drink, etc just tastes better. So still a demand for real products especially in places where those products are less accessible.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 most likely I would heavily suspect they primarily operated in areas that were considered Core Terran worlds. Leaving the trade and shipping in other areas to the regional members as well as independent contractors like Cassidy.
@@cygryl That and it was probably considered safer space, I mean Cassidy Yates was working around the Cardassian border which had been in various states of conflict for at least 30 years.
I wonder if they have their own future version of LaserShip, that consistently screws up your delivery. You order a case of self sealing stem bolts and they end up delivered to some Gorn colony instead of your starbase. Also I think the automated cargo runner would be even more vulnerable than a crewed ship. A crew can negotiate, change tactics and think out side the box to avoid piracy or other problems. AI would be easy to predict and overcome.
_"As someone who flew two space capsules and twice landed in the ocean, I can attest from personal experience how much logistics work is needed to get you home." Buzz Aldrin_ The ECS was indeed critical to early Human interstellar travel, and it was cool to see more about the civilian aspects of the Star Trek universe during the events of Enterprise. Hmm, interesting idea about the minuteman being repurposed for civilian usage so early. Also, there does exist the UFP Merchant Marine post-Founding, but perhaps it was highly decentralized for the first century or so.
I think it would have been interesting to get more stories about Mayweather from Enterprise. He would say interesting things about how his dad would play the howls of a gas giant that kept him up at night, or when they had to survive that storm. Space pirates, spooky planets, other non galaxy altering stories would be an interesting thing to see from people that haven't got the backing of StarFleet.
In words attributed to General Omar Bradley: "amateurs talk of tactics, professionals talk of logistics." Whether he actually said that is immaterial, but it's true: keeping your supply lines secure and efficient is the key to success.
I really wasn't into watching this one but I very much enjoyed it. Loved hearing about the minuteman class that was really cool and should have been turned into a battle ship because it had that commanding look about it. I got a better understanding of what the other half of Earth was using in the early days of Star Trek. Thank you very much for getting this great info to use.
Honestly I felt like the point of the rules was only to be a framework that could be bent. Like why they are rules for one. 2 to 4 warp nacelles in a certain position are the most efficient for a certain reason.
I love this lore and what would be great as a next step in this era, though it would be very complicated and need a long video, is something you alluded to toward the end: replicators. When did they arrive, what could the first ones do, or more importantly not do, and how did it affect trade in the Federation? Perhaps another thing that starts as only a play thing of the ultra-rich? It's a huge topic, but I've always thought there's some clues in the the Cannon lore that can help guide their development. The first big issue would be simply being able to replicate water, a game changer itself. Then you have the incremental changes after that, including efficiency (sure, E=MC squared, but I bet early replicators probably bled huge amounts of lost energy) and then to the computer storage space needed for replicator patterns being beyond the capacity of early ships, other than the most simple items like water, so freighters were still widely needed as colony worlds couldn't simply replicate all the food and/or material they needed.
In a lot of sci fi, the logistics of how the civ actually works is often overlooked. Like a lot of the federation is post scarcity, but there still needs to be someone out there harvesting ore and moving it from place to place or antimatter etc. And then someone to process it, and or collect stuff that can be broken down for the replicators matter supplies.
Part of me wants to think those Space Truckers of the Earth Cargo Service still zooming around into the 25th century. Maybe dealing with more inter Federation Cargo with a Smaller ship with their more valuable cargo with a train of Automated ships behind them for the rest of their goods.
YAS! ECS GANG REPRESENT! Very interesting take on something not a lot of people think about, but I remember the wise words of Gramp Rela, "Amateurs talk about starships. Professionals talk about Logistics Ships." I really loved the touch that technology changes people not just in times of war, but in the pursuit of trade and commerce. Consider what Alexendar Graham Bell did with the telephone, or as you mentioned, Automobiles. And as the universe changed, so too did the ECS. But this time, I'm disagreeing with you sir! I don't think the ECS ever went away. Sure, by Yates' time they weren't the monopolizers anymore, especially since any idiot with a replicator card can pump out a ship. But, going back to Automobiles, Standard Oil aka Chevron never really went away either. Like todays Merchant ships, someone is still responsible for registering ships, insuring them (and I bet insurance still exists in the 24th century), training and licensing of crews. I suspect that by DS9, the ECS likely evolved to that sort of governing body. I would also submit that when the Federation signs a trade deal with, say, the Klingons, you generally don't wanna be sending the Enterprise out to haul cases of borite around. So, much like how there is now a reserve US Merchant Marine Fleet, Earth (Andoria, Teller, Vulcan, Trill etc) Cargo Service can either send out their own cargo liners, or charter private merchies to do all the hauling. Wicked awesome video!! Thank you!!
The existence of cargo ships didn’t diminish throughout the federation even in the 24th century or beyond. There is likelihood of needing transport to ferry both, specialty items, bulk items and people. Case in point is the ubiquitous dilithiums and colonies (and of course tribbles)
Excellent video always love the documentary style. In my head cannon I picture crews of rough and weird peoples like in the old movie Space Truckers =D
It's nice to see what was happening in the civilian sector during the early years of the Trek Universe, after all that's basically what Star Fleet is defending.
Unless you have the foresight to include a very large hydroponic section. Hell, make it a marketing strategy to advertise to the stressed out passengers a way to de-stress by tending to the hydroponic crops. Add cannabis to the crop and you will have to fight off the applications with a broom.
Thank you for pointing this out. Sure, exploration and defense is greatly needed when traversing the aether, but so many many times sci-fi writers forget the importance and overall interesting aspect of logistics.
A quote i like for this: A poor officer studies tactics, a great one studies logistics. Basically you can have the best guns/ship/whatever, but if you have no fuel, ammo, stores for the troops/crew, those things are useless.
I think a good perspective on this is just within our own current world consider just how much a nation's merchant navy dwarfs their military one in terms of weight and number of ships there is no reason that would change in space
Very good, thanks. Perhaps you could explain on this with surface to orbit transport of people and goods. And how eventually transporter technology was phased in sometime in the early 23rd century.
I've always wondered about the most cost effective design for a cargo ship in the Star Trek universe. I always assumed the shape would match the warp bubble as much as possible to optimize the use of anti-matter.
On Cars and Planes, at the start of WWI they had just transitioned from the Wealthy to Commercial and middle class use in the case of Cars & Trucks, the Working Classes where finally getting their hands on them through their Work and the middle classes through their work and small businesses
Energy replicator credits are the currency of the Federation. It's plentiful enough that people can trade it and still have enough for all needs, but buy ships with it.
i suspect as others have said the ECS becomes the 'Federation Cargo Service' and serves as an auxillary to starfleet hauling cargo between member worlds, their colonies and allied powers. the Antares from TOS were probably FCS freighters that had been called up to support Star Fleet operations. they have nothing like the boomers any more given warp speeds but it wouldnt at all surprise me if a lot of the FCS freighters had at least one person whose family came from a boomer family and is proud of it.
The Conestoga getting to Terra Nova in nine years I think suggests that Warp 1 doesn't just mean the speed of light. Terra Nova suppose to be less than 20 light years away, so that's around half the travel time of light. Early Warp ships possibly were measuring speeds like .5 past light speed or something, kinda like 24th Century Warp scales measuring speeds greater than Warp 9 as still just 9.6 or 9.85437. I trying looking it up and I found some places saying Warp 2 is 8 light years for a year traveled. Not sure how exact that is, but it does give a lot of room for Conestoga speeds in the 21st century if they don't succeed 8 light years.
Regardless if old or new scales, Warp 1 = c. In the old scale, Warp 2 was 10 times faster than c, while in the new scale, Warp 2 was more logarithmic and was faster then the old scale.
@@danielseelye6005 Could we possibly have Warp scales being looser until the 22nd century? Is the old scale possibly a Vulcan convention that wasn't adopted or as influential in the 2060s-2070s? When exactly was Warp speeds first set in universe?
I've got my old Star Trek Encyclopedia, 1999 edition and it talks about the original series went with a cubed formula for each factor. Warp 1 was c (1^3) Warp 2 was 8c (2^3) Warp 3 was 27c (3^3) Warp 4 was 64c (4^3) Warp 5 was 125c (5^3) You can figure the rest from there. After The Great Experiment with _Excelsior,_ the warp scale was made with an "asymptotic" curve Warp 1 is c Warp 2 is 10c Warp 3 is 39c Warp 4 is 102c and even higher from there. Coincidentally, by this chart in the encyclopedia, it lists travel across one sector of space (20 LY) at Warp 1 as 20 years but at Warp 2 is 3 years (TNG scale) I think they had the scale figured out by "Enterprise" and known for those other ships in the ECS. Edit: Had to check my math over again just to make sure.
@@danielseelye6005 Is there something about Warp calculations that required a lack of Warp 1.5 designation with the old scale? I'm not disagreeing with this structure, but when did they adopt it? Like don't know when knots where adopted in sailing, but I'd bare it to guess there was a period of sailing before nautical miles were a thing. Are Warp Factors a human thing? Did the Vulcans come up with them? Or is there something objective about them in universe, at least axiomatically?
Spacedock did a video on the _Nostromo_ and she was a big girl. Edit: She was 335m long, 230 wide. As long, if not a smidge longer than the _Voyager,_ but the vast majority of the ship was it's main engines and reaction mass, so the crew area was only in the head and neck for three decks.
Those freight ships had be Hugh for amounts of cargo. The Nostromo has pull oil and gas refinery (5-8 miles) wide, You need cargo ship heck of powerful engine thrusters.
The Earth Cargo Service might not ever have ended. It might just have transformed, redefining itself and the services it provides along with the times and technology.
The discussion of the ECS is actually very important, because while it might just be treated like a background issue in Enterprise the importance was made clear in "Federation: The First 150 Years" because they were stated to have been the foundation of Starfleet's ship construction; they traded and gained knowledge from nearby species, acquired dilithum, and even made initial contact with species to better understand space travel prior to Starfleet
the Earth Cargo Service reminds me of a merchant marine service in a way. i'd say all the different cargo services probably began its merge during the 4 years war, for better protection, and solidified after the invention of the replicator
That should've been Enterprise, 3 seasons of Kzinti being the main antagonist, season 4 finding out it's the romulans instead of the Kzinti that where to blame and the last 3 seasons building the aliance and the start of the Romulan war. With Archer being Sisko in reverse, a soldier that became an explorer before becoming a soldier again.
Haven't looed at the Sarajevo class in a long time. But how it was shown on screen and on memory alfa there was no mention of it having warp engines. It looked like a in system passanger liner or personal ship. That's why it looked so diferent than Starfleet designs. They must retconned it or something, because there were no visible bussards on it (they should be glowng lightly even if warp is not engaged). Not to mention Earth didn't do integrated nacelles at the time. If the ship designer said that they have warp than ok, he's the creator after all. Over 10 years later and now I find out that is has warp when it lacked it earliear. Not the first time ST retconned stuff. Eddit: Read up and they say the cgi bussards were not added at the time, so that explains it. Not the first or last time CGI crew omit or add weapon fire in places it is not present, so forgetting bussard glow makes sense. Still the design looks more like an in system vessel not a warp ship... at least in the time period.
The navy may get all the glory, but Empires are built on the backs of the merchant marine. Without shipments of raw materials, personnel, manufactured goods, and foodstuffs, new colonies would never get off the ground. In war time, they provide logistical transport for munitions, fuel, rations and troops. They are as essential as the war fleet if not more so.
Earth cargo service as you say would have be of crucial importance to the united earth's early off world, settlements, inter planetary commerce and exploratory expansion. While being of supreme logistical support to the united earth's war effort against the romulans supplying the tools of war and every other vital military supply starfleet would have needed to repel and defeat the romulans. Suspect and agree with you that they probably survive into the 23 century given how they are still very necessary, even despite the automation of ships to deliver supply of food, medicine and all other building blocks to federation worlds while freeing up starfleet to be responsible for defence, diplomacy and exploration. .
I loved the subject and agree with points of the thesis, I disagree with the conclusion that ECS had disappeared by the TOS/TMP era because of the combination of automation and the advent of replicators. First, while yes, it would make sense to have certain cargo routes, close to core worlds, servives by automated cargo haulers, others can't services like that, for example, for those goods that need to be transported quickly because they are essential to life or valuable, like say dilithium. This was made evident when, as late as the 29th Century, colonial worlds were still so Earth dependant, that when the Burn happened, many were left to fend for themselves, both militarily, and economically. There are also goods that cannot be replicated, and are periphable which need to be transported by manned cargo vessels; in the only example of automated vessels we saw, these were only travelling at impulse, no doubt a limitation of the technology deemed necessary after the M5 disaster. That implies automated ships could not be used to cover long distances at Warp. Finally, we also have from TOS episode, "Bread and Circuses", were we are introduced to the existence of the Federation Merchant Marine, with the S.S. Beagle. This suggests that, rather than disappear, the ECS became the "F.M.M."; perhaps following Starfleet's model and folding the native fleets of at least the founding Federation member worlds into a single cohesive force, for commerce and colonization. That last purpose only fell to Starfleet at the height of the "Golden era", when the Federation, convinced of its invulnerability, though it could afford to let Starfleet abandon it's military mandate.
so if by the 24 century earth cargo service was over.what replaced it?did Star fleet take over cargo runs? please make another video to explain what you meant.thanks in advance.
Hello VG. I don't outright disagree with your assertions in this video. But I do need to clarify something said roughly 11 minutes into the video. You mentioned that the sphere of human influence had expanded, and that ships needed to have range, since colonies were more than a Parsec away. A Parsec, is 3.26 Light Years. Alpha Centauri is 4.1 to 4.3 LY away, so a bit less than two parsecs. There are dozens of stars within a distance of 10 to 15 parsecs (32.6 to 46.2 LY). Warp One would be FAR too slow to consider round trips out that far. Literally 30 to 45 + years travel time. Warp Two ushers in the kind of travel you were talking of, and Warp Three does it one better. At Warp 3, you've cut the travel time down from 30+ years, to something between (depending upon reference quoted) 27 to 487 times the speed of light. At the lower value, such a 30 LY trip would take just over a year (The British Empire had a world spanning Empire where ships would be at sea for up to 2 to 3 years). And at the higher end, those same 30 LY voyages would take just over 6 months. The television series, Enterprise, has the Enterprise moving at Warp 5. Considerably faster than the cargo service, that expected to take 6 months for a one way trip at warp 3. In effect, the Cargo Services were tootling along like the old sailing vessels of the British Merchantmen, taking 6 months to get to their planned stop, and another 6 months to return. Yet, an Empire was build and expanded at that speed. So even though the Enterprise could cover the same distance in a matter of a handful of weeks, civilian craft were much slower. I just wanted to refresh your data on just what a Parsec is (The distance from the Sun, where a star would move enough to detect easily via parallax). A parsec is the distance - 3.26 light-years - that a star must lie from the Sun for its parallax angle to be exactly 1 arc second (1/3600th the radius of a circle). This is a 'benchmark' distance, and Astronomy measures either in total Light Years distance, Parsecs, or in 'Kilo Parsecs' (3262 Light Years). This is done to reduce the figures to more comprehensible distances. Just a few thoughts.
The majority of ECS crews are families and a majority of family members are Spacers, versus spacers. The difference between a spacer and Spacer is where they were born (Spacer - aboard a ship, likely a family ECS vessel). Why this difference is notable, is there's individuals and groups consider those born in space, not linked to nature (planet, moon), resulting in mistreatment and prejudice. For some unknown reason some individuals born at a space station, may "not" be considered a Spacer, due to the likelihood they were born in a clinic or hospital (with a nature area attached). Cargo and passenger service still exists, likely renamed (Federation Transport Services?). ;-)
I feel as space-travel got faster and the travel locations became further, it became less & less practical to use ships only capable of low warp... this really limited Earth-Cargo to freight only shipments of time-unsensitive cheap bulk cargo. turning it into a very hard tertiary player. Ultimately, in my headcannon, the death of The Earth Cargo Service was a change in technology and economy... namely, the replacement of cargo haulage with all-capable replicators... what demand remained, i.e.: the carriage of smaller scale cargo seems to be done in a large degree by by the non-capital ships of Starfleet, such as the California class and it's predecessors, the type always flitting about federation space at speed, & quite able to do most supply runs, as a side mission, without it really effecting their schedule too much... such ships do also (if I remember correctly) have quite a lot of space to carry passengers, though, this mainly applies to those who work at a space station, on an official colony, or in a Starfleet or Starfleet allied facility... other organizations (such as independent researchers, religious organizations, & asteroid based mines) do seem to also have there own suppliers and cargo haulers mostly based of small vessels and runabouts, however in-universe, the ability to travel really is mostly a function of ones ultimate position in the space society, and what kind of strings one is able to pull & how easily.... with a high amounts of excess capacity in the system, I am sure. if you know someone in Starfleet, or to a lesser degree, in one of the other organizations, you can probably always arrange to get a lift. at least in the central sectors or to Ds9 and such facilities
They would have been annexed into Starfleet. As the corgos and persons transported would need protected. Medicine, important diplomats and cargo like industrial replicators and Antimatter reactors. Wouldn't be easily replicated... Plus Starfleet would have the resources to build the size ships cargo needed for future expansion and to service Federation worlds. In Deep Space 9 we saw the rise of privite cargo hullers do to Starfleet ships would have been needed for war logistics.
6:50 Soo....anybody else figure the folks who ran Centauri Spaceways had their employees wear their hair in a crest? And speak with a funny accent? Or is that just me?
What a fascinating era of ship design and experiences for those who'd have worked and journeyed upon them. Closest movie I can match to this era is arguably "Passengers" - which might give a clue as to the sorts of stories one might tell.
So with ECS and MACO's having to contend with pirates, and Vulcan's not sharing toys, or playing space cop how come there aren't more stories and instances of United Earth trying to capture, reverse engineer, and reproduce nominally superior pirate technology stargate style?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 true but with the exception of the kzinti the usual suspects (orions, and nausicaans for sure, and maybe glory seeking klingons) by virtue of being able to reach human territory and run down human freighters all seem to have access to warp 2 or better ships. Considering humans themselves were struggling to break the warp 2 barrier for almost 100 years until less than a decade before the launch of the NX-01 it would make sense that they would at least attempt to make the effort once they realized how difficult warp 2 apparently is.
So while I agree that original scale warp one makes sense for intersystem transport, I'm pretty sure I remember something about Starfleet officers never going to warp within system except for in the case of extreme emergency?
Good question. That presumes warp 1 is the same across all scales. Warp 1 in the 24th century could be much faster. Also at this point you don't have impulse yet so sublight is painfully slow.
The deal about not needing money in the federation. I propose that all basic needs are provided and then some. Those who wanted extra indulged in the various money markets available on most worlds. Something that democratic presidential contender Wang proposed.
Yup agree 10000% on the video's premise. Let's face it, in any healthy civilisation the military (or pseudo military in the case of starfleet) will be but a tiny fraction of the total civilian effort whether you want to measure it in market terms, assets and so on. But it is a TV show.... The voyages of the earth - mars shuttlebus wouldn't be as catchy...
German Lufthansa space ship haha. Anyways, human nations don't fully disappear anyways, they just become more of provinces. Picard family still has their French vinyard.
If I had to sacrifice part of my cargo I'd like to plant a nasty surprise in them like a hydrogen bomb to be found in a few moments by said pirates.(get ready for a surprise....BOOM)😂😂
Drachinifel: where are all the big merchants?
Enterprise: I got you fam
I like that one of the Bison class ships is in Pan Am livery and is a named Clipper. I love that little touch there, and it's very believable that Pan Am World Airways might come back banking on that new spaceship and being a "day one customer"
I believe the artist missed out on a golden opportunity to put up a vessel of the Branniff and Blue Sun corporation!!! 🤠👍
Cosmoflote is amongst them as well
No DY-500?
Star Trek AU: the Earth Cargo Service goes down the East India Company route and establishes a semi-independent power base
I'm not convinced that it ever ended, In America the trucking industry has independent owner operator who are since to Cassidy Yates as well as huge trucking companies. But a owner operator has to find loads and have one waiting near the location of their last drop off. I see the Earth cargo service operating even in the 24th century in a dual role they might still have a fleet of vessels for their own hauls and a dispatching service for the owner operators.
If you look any in the oceans other than a major naval base, you'll see more civilian ships than naval vessels.
Iv'e always thought that there should have been a STAR TREK series about civilians/civilian ships either involving STARFLEET very little or not Involving STARFLEET at all.Maybe smugglers or civilian transports.
I couldn't agree more.
Get a taste of it in picard with rios. But that's hardly satisfactory.
Wouldn't be surprised to see that the ECS continued even through eras like Picard albeit in a diminished capacity. We see numerous times people commenting that real food, drink, etc just tastes better. So still a demand for real products especially in places where those products are less accessible.
Possibly although I think freelancers like cassidy Yates were more common
@@venomgeekmedia9886 most likely I would heavily suspect they primarily operated in areas that were considered Core Terran worlds. Leaving the trade and shipping in other areas to the regional members as well as independent contractors like Cassidy.
@@cygryl That and it was probably considered safer space, I mean Cassidy Yates was working around the Cardassian border which had been in various states of conflict for at least 30 years.
Good video. nice to talk about the civilian transports and pre federation ships plus I love how you incorporate alot of non canon fiction.
And the Kzin-ti, yeah (sorry 'Kzin-titi'...)
Can't do much if you're not well supplied on a regular basis
"amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics." - General Omar Bradley WWII.
I wonder if they have their own future version of LaserShip, that consistently screws up your delivery. You order a case of self sealing stem bolts and they end up delivered to some Gorn colony instead of your starbase. Also I think the automated cargo runner would be even more vulnerable than a crewed ship. A crew can negotiate, change tactics and think out side the box to avoid piracy or other problems. AI would be easy to predict and overcome.
_"As someone who flew two space capsules and twice landed in the ocean, I can attest from personal experience how much logistics work is needed to get you home." Buzz Aldrin_
The ECS was indeed critical to early Human interstellar travel, and it was cool to see more about the civilian aspects of the Star Trek universe during the events of Enterprise.
Hmm, interesting idea about the minuteman being repurposed for civilian usage so early.
Also, there does exist the UFP Merchant Marine post-Founding, but perhaps it was highly decentralized for the first century or so.
I think it would have been interesting to get more stories about Mayweather from Enterprise. He would say interesting things about how his dad would play the howls of a gas giant that kept him up at night, or when they had to survive that storm.
Space pirates, spooky planets, other non galaxy altering stories would be an interesting thing to see from people that haven't got the backing of StarFleet.
Damn insurance must be high during this time
This video was extremely informative and i liked how presented each Cargo ship design and timelines when these ship were in Service, thank you.
In words attributed to General Omar Bradley: "amateurs talk of tactics, professionals talk of logistics." Whether he actually said that is immaterial, but it's true: keeping your supply lines secure and efficient is the key to success.
Maybe do a video about life on a colony planet, especially pre Star Fleet. There were snippets about colony life, i.e. Tasha Yar, etc.
I really wasn't into watching this one but I very much enjoyed it. Loved hearing about the minuteman class that was really cool and should have been turned into a battle ship because it had that commanding look about it. I got a better understanding of what the other half of Earth was using in the early days of Star Trek. Thank you very much for getting this great info to use.
Minuteman is a destroyer in the Star Trek Legacy game from 2006ish
@@marsar1775 For that time that's a big destroyer. I can see why the Rom's would be a little shy around it. Thanks a lot.
And a lot of vessels that just wouldn't work under Rodenberry's rules of needing a line of sight between the warp nacelles.
Honestly I felt like the point of the rules was only to be a framework that could be bent. Like why they are rules for one. 2 to 4 warp nacelles in a certain position are the most efficient for a certain reason.
Most of the actual cargo ships are in the clear.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 well you wouldnt want to put experimental engine designs on cargo ships
I can think of at least a half dozen ships that break that rule. All of ST3 for instance.
I love this lore and what would be great as a next step in this era, though it would be very complicated and need a long video, is something you alluded to toward the end: replicators. When did they arrive, what could the first ones do, or more importantly not do, and how did it affect trade in the Federation? Perhaps another thing that starts as only a play thing of the ultra-rich? It's a huge topic, but I've always thought there's some clues in the the Cannon lore that can help guide their development. The first big issue would be simply being able to replicate water, a game changer itself. Then you have the incremental changes after that, including efficiency (sure, E=MC squared, but I bet early replicators probably bled huge amounts of lost energy) and then to the computer storage space needed for replicator patterns being beyond the capacity of early ships, other than the most simple items like water, so freighters were still widely needed as colony worlds couldn't simply replicate all the food and/or material they needed.
In a lot of sci fi, the logistics of how the civ actually works is often overlooked. Like a lot of the federation is post scarcity, but there still needs to be someone out there harvesting ore and moving it from place to place or antimatter etc. And then someone to process it, and or collect stuff that can be broken down for the replicators matter supplies.
Logistics wins wars and also brings prosperity
Part of me wants to think those Space Truckers of the Earth Cargo Service still zooming around into the 25th century. Maybe dealing with more inter Federation Cargo with a Smaller ship with their more valuable cargo with a train of Automated ships behind them for the rest of their goods.
Aw yisss, finaly someone mentions the minuteman class outside of Legacy
Ptolemy Class is my favorite star trek cargo hauler.
That was really interesting. Thank you. 👍
YAS! ECS GANG REPRESENT!
Very interesting take on something not a lot of people think about, but I remember the wise words of Gramp Rela, "Amateurs talk about starships. Professionals talk about Logistics Ships." I really loved the touch that technology changes people not just in times of war, but in the pursuit of trade and commerce. Consider what Alexendar Graham Bell did with the telephone, or as you mentioned, Automobiles. And as the universe changed, so too did the ECS.
But this time, I'm disagreeing with you sir! I don't think the ECS ever went away. Sure, by Yates' time they weren't the monopolizers anymore, especially since any idiot with a replicator card can pump out a ship. But, going back to Automobiles, Standard Oil aka Chevron never really went away either. Like todays Merchant ships, someone is still responsible for registering ships, insuring them (and I bet insurance still exists in the 24th century), training and licensing of crews. I suspect that by DS9, the ECS likely evolved to that sort of governing body. I would also submit that when the Federation signs a trade deal with, say, the Klingons, you generally don't wanna be sending the Enterprise out to haul cases of borite around. So, much like how there is now a reserve US Merchant Marine Fleet, Earth (Andoria, Teller, Vulcan, Trill etc) Cargo Service can either send out their own cargo liners, or charter private merchies to do all the hauling.
Wicked awesome video!! Thank you!!
The existence of cargo ships didn’t diminish throughout the federation even in the 24th century or beyond. There is likelihood of needing transport to ferry both, specialty items, bulk items and people. Case in point is the ubiquitous dilithiums and colonies (and of course tribbles)
Just like in the modern world, without truckers and shipping, everything would ground to a halt
Nice one, very well done and makes a lot of sense.
Excellent video always love the documentary style. In my head cannon I picture crews of rough and weird peoples like in the old movie Space Truckers =D
I love the use of the Star Fleet Battles Kzinti ships.
I haven't said this in a while but this was very well thought out for you bro.
Really like this video! I enjoy when you journey off the obviuos path...
Sun Tzu taught us long ago about the importance of logistics; an army marches on it's stomach.
A often overlooked part of any Science Fiction world. Very glad to see.
It's nice to see what was happening in the civilian sector during the early years of the Trek Universe, after all that's basically what Star Fleet is defending.
C. The longer a trip with a passenger ship takes, the more food and other supplies are needed, which take away passenger space.
Unless you have the foresight to include a very large hydroponic section. Hell, make it a marketing strategy to advertise to the stressed out passengers a way to de-stress by tending to the hydroponic crops.
Add cannabis to the crop and you will have to fight off the applications with a broom.
Thank you for pointing this out. Sure, exploration and defense is greatly needed when traversing the aether, but so many many times sci-fi writers forget the importance and overall interesting aspect of logistics.
A quote i like for this: A poor officer studies tactics, a great one studies logistics.
Basically you can have the best guns/ship/whatever, but if you have no fuel, ammo, stores for the troops/crew, those things are useless.
@@Talon1124 absolutely
I think a good perspective on this is just within our own current world consider just how much a nation's merchant navy dwarfs their military one in terms of weight and number of ships there is no reason that would change in space
Very good, thanks. Perhaps you could explain on this with surface to orbit transport of people and goods. And how eventually transporter technology was phased in sometime in the early 23rd century.
Yeah especially because shuttlepods of the time were pretty small.
I've always wondered about the most cost effective design for a cargo ship in the Star Trek universe. I always assumed the shape would match the warp bubble as much as possible to optimize the use of anti-matter.
On Cars and Planes, at the start of WWI they had just transitioned from the Wealthy to Commercial and middle class use in the case of Cars & Trucks, the Working Classes where finally getting their hands on them through their Work and the middle classes through their work and small businesses
Energy replicator credits are the currency of the Federation. It's plentiful enough that people can trade it and still have enough for all needs, but buy ships with it.
i suspect as others have said the ECS becomes the 'Federation Cargo Service' and serves as an auxillary to starfleet hauling cargo between member worlds, their colonies and allied powers. the Antares from TOS were probably FCS freighters that had been called up to support Star Fleet operations. they have nothing like the boomers any more given warp speeds but it wouldnt at all surprise me if a lot of the FCS freighters had at least one person whose family came from a boomer family and is proud of it.
The Conestoga getting to Terra Nova in nine years I think suggests that Warp 1 doesn't just mean the speed of light. Terra Nova suppose to be less than 20 light years away, so that's around half the travel time of light. Early Warp ships possibly were measuring speeds like .5 past light speed or something, kinda like 24th Century Warp scales measuring speeds greater than Warp 9 as still just 9.6 or 9.85437.
I trying looking it up and I found some places saying Warp 2 is 8 light years for a year traveled. Not sure how exact that is, but it does give a lot of room for Conestoga speeds in the 21st century if they don't succeed 8 light years.
Regardless if old or new scales, Warp 1 = c. In the old scale, Warp 2 was 10 times faster than c, while in the new scale, Warp 2 was more logarithmic and was faster then the old scale.
@@danielseelye6005 Could we possibly have Warp scales being looser until the 22nd century? Is the old scale possibly a Vulcan convention that wasn't adopted or as influential in the 2060s-2070s?
When exactly was Warp speeds first set in universe?
I've got my old Star Trek Encyclopedia, 1999 edition and it talks about the original series went with a cubed formula for each factor.
Warp 1 was c (1^3)
Warp 2 was 8c (2^3)
Warp 3 was 27c (3^3)
Warp 4 was 64c (4^3)
Warp 5 was 125c (5^3)
You can figure the rest from there.
After The Great Experiment with _Excelsior,_ the warp scale was made with an "asymptotic" curve
Warp 1 is c
Warp 2 is 10c
Warp 3 is 39c
Warp 4 is 102c and even higher from there.
Coincidentally, by this chart in the encyclopedia, it lists travel across one sector of space (20 LY) at Warp 1 as 20 years but at Warp 2 is 3 years (TNG scale)
I think they had the scale figured out by "Enterprise" and known for those other ships in the ECS.
Edit: Had to check my math over again just to make sure.
@@danielseelye6005 Is there something about Warp calculations that required a lack of Warp 1.5 designation with the old scale? I'm not disagreeing with this structure, but when did they adopt it? Like don't know when knots where adopted in sailing, but I'd bare it to guess there was a period of sailing before nautical miles were a thing.
Are Warp Factors a human thing? Did the Vulcans come up with them? Or is there something objective about them in universe, at least axiomatically?
Yeah warp factors are funky.
Have you seen the size of the nostromo (the hauler not the rig) compared to the TOS enterprise? It’s quite surprising how big it is.
Really even though it's only crewed by 6 people and a cat?
Spacedock did a video on the _Nostromo_ and she was a big girl.
Edit: She was 335m long, 230 wide. As long, if not a smidge longer than the _Voyager,_ but the vast majority of the ship was it's main engines and reaction mass, so the crew area was only in the head and neck for three decks.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 It's as big as the TOS Enterprise but with a lot more mass.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 And its still horrible and claustrophobic!
Those freight ships had be Hugh for amounts of cargo. The Nostromo has pull oil and gas refinery (5-8 miles) wide, You need cargo ship heck of powerful engine thrusters.
A spin off show with theses ships would of been cool.
The Earth Cargo Service might not ever have ended. It might just have transformed, redefining itself and the services it provides along with the times and technology.
Couldn't agree more
The discussion of the ECS is actually very important, because while it might just be treated like a background issue in Enterprise the importance was made clear in "Federation: The First 150 Years" because they were stated to have been the foundation of Starfleet's ship construction; they traded and gained knowledge from nearby species, acquired dilithum, and even made initial contact with species to better understand space travel prior to Starfleet
Interesting overall. At the 28 minute point, isn't that a Maquis raider? I never thought of them as cargo ships!
the Earth Cargo Service reminds me of a merchant marine service in a way. i'd say all the different cargo services probably began its merge during the 4 years war, for better protection, and solidified after the invention of the replicator
That should've been Enterprise, 3 seasons of Kzinti being the main antagonist, season 4 finding out it's the romulans instead of the Kzinti that where to blame and the last 3 seasons building the aliance and the start of the Romulan war. With Archer being Sisko in reverse, a soldier that became an explorer before becoming a soldier again.
Haven't looed at the Sarajevo class in a long time. But how it was shown on screen and on memory alfa there was no mention of it having warp engines. It looked like a in system passanger liner or personal ship. That's why it looked so diferent than Starfleet designs. They must retconned it or something, because there were no visible bussards on it (they should be glowng lightly even if warp is not engaged). Not to mention Earth didn't do integrated nacelles at the time. If the ship designer said that they have warp than ok, he's the creator after all. Over 10 years later and now I find out that is has warp when it lacked it earliear. Not the first time ST retconned stuff. Eddit: Read up and they say the cgi bussards were not added at the time, so that explains it. Not the first or last time CGI crew omit or add weapon fire in places it is not present, so forgetting bussard glow makes sense. Still the design looks more like an in system vessel not a warp ship... at least in the time period.
Ya'll should check out "Aurora Trek" as it is based in this subject!!! 🤠👍
The Kzinti regarded all other species as dinner. if they found a cargo or colony ship, a much darker fate awaited those on board...
The navy may get all the glory, but Empires are built on the backs of the merchant marine. Without shipments of raw materials, personnel, manufactured goods, and foodstuffs, new colonies would never get off the ground. In war time, they provide logistical transport for munitions, fuel, rations and troops. They are as essential as the war fleet if not more so.
Why not cover the USS Defiant slipping through interphase? There is still so much we don't know.
Earth cargo service as you say would have be of crucial importance to the united earth's early off world, settlements, inter planetary commerce and exploratory expansion. While being of supreme logistical support to the united earth's war effort against the romulans supplying the tools of war and every other vital military supply starfleet would have needed to repel and defeat the romulans.
Suspect and agree with you that they probably survive into the 23 century given how they are still very necessary, even despite the automation of ships to deliver supply of food, medicine and all other building blocks to federation worlds while freeing up starfleet to be responsible for defence, diplomacy and exploration. .
Very quality video!
You should do a federation starship timeline
I loved the subject and agree with points of the thesis, I disagree with the conclusion that ECS had disappeared by the TOS/TMP era because of the combination of automation and the advent of replicators.
First, while yes, it would make sense to have certain cargo routes, close to core worlds, servives by automated cargo haulers, others can't services like that, for example, for those goods that need to be transported quickly because they are essential to life or valuable, like say dilithium. This was made evident when, as late as the 29th Century, colonial worlds were still so Earth dependant, that when the Burn happened, many were left to fend for themselves, both militarily, and economically.
There are also goods that cannot be replicated, and are periphable which need to be transported by manned cargo vessels; in the only example of automated vessels we saw, these were only travelling at impulse, no doubt a limitation of the technology deemed necessary after the M5 disaster. That implies automated ships could not be used to cover long distances at Warp.
Finally, we also have from TOS episode, "Bread and Circuses", were we are introduced to the existence of the Federation Merchant Marine, with the S.S. Beagle. This suggests that, rather than disappear, the ECS became the "F.M.M."; perhaps following Starfleet's model and folding the native fleets of at least the founding Federation member worlds into a single cohesive force, for commerce and colonization. That last purpose only fell to Starfleet at the height of the "Golden era", when the Federation, convinced of its invulnerability, though it could afford to let Starfleet abandon it's military mandate.
@8:20 - ;) *2120s I believe that's what you meant, good sir?
".. Not until sometime in the 22nd century perhaps the 2220s" - oops! 😅
Sounds like a good era for Star Trek: Firefly. 🤭
If only there was a Liberty and Victory class Earth Cargo Ship?
so if by the 24 century earth cargo service was over.what replaced it?did Star fleet take over cargo runs? please make another video to explain what you meant.thanks in advance.
My thoughts are Corner the market on hauling blood wine & Tribbles
Hello VG.
I don't outright disagree with your assertions in this video. But I do need to clarify something said roughly 11 minutes into the video.
You mentioned that the sphere of human influence had expanded, and that ships needed to have range, since colonies were more than a Parsec away. A Parsec, is 3.26 Light Years. Alpha Centauri is 4.1 to 4.3 LY away, so a bit less than two parsecs.
There are dozens of stars within a distance of 10 to 15 parsecs (32.6 to 46.2 LY).
Warp One would be FAR too slow to consider round trips out that far. Literally 30 to 45 + years travel time.
Warp Two ushers in the kind of travel you were talking of, and Warp Three does it one better.
At Warp 3, you've cut the travel time down from 30+ years, to something between (depending upon reference quoted) 27 to 487 times the speed of light. At the lower value, such a 30 LY trip would take just over a year (The British Empire had a world spanning Empire where ships would be at sea for up to 2 to 3 years). And at the higher end, those same 30 LY voyages would take just over 6 months.
The television series, Enterprise, has the Enterprise moving at Warp 5. Considerably faster than the cargo service, that expected to take 6 months for a one way trip at warp 3.
In effect, the Cargo Services were tootling along like the old sailing vessels of the British Merchantmen, taking 6 months to get to their planned stop, and another 6 months to return. Yet, an Empire was build and expanded at that speed.
So even though the Enterprise could cover the same distance in a matter of a handful of weeks, civilian craft were much slower.
I just wanted to refresh your data on just what a Parsec is (The distance from the Sun, where a star would move enough to detect easily via parallax). A parsec is the distance - 3.26 light-years - that a star must lie from the Sun for its parallax angle to be exactly 1 arc second (1/3600th the radius of a circle).
This is a 'benchmark' distance, and Astronomy measures either in total Light Years distance, Parsecs, or in 'Kilo Parsecs' (3262 Light Years). This is done to reduce the figures to more comprehensible distances.
Just a few thoughts.
Don't forget the nausicaans they're pretty badass pirates too
"Boomer" was a character in Battle Star Galactica.
Space Truckers. I want a Trek version of Convoy and East\Westbound and Down.
You said replicaters did away with the Cargo Ships but How can they Replicate anything if they don't have the Elements to do it???.
The majority of ECS crews are families and a majority of family members are Spacers, versus spacers.
The difference between a spacer and Spacer is where they were born (Spacer - aboard a ship, likely a family ECS vessel).
Why this difference is notable, is there's individuals and groups consider those born in space, not linked to nature (planet, moon), resulting in mistreatment and prejudice.
For some unknown reason some individuals born at a space station, may "not" be considered a Spacer, due to the likelihood they were born in a clinic or hospital (with a nature area attached).
Cargo and passenger service still exists, likely renamed (Federation Transport Services?). ;-)
So artificial gravity, which allows decks of a ship to be built parallel with the line of thrust, was developed before impulse drive?
Possibly yes. Although early human ships had vertically oriented decks.
1. Where is the DY-500 in all of this? (See S.S. Mariposa.)
2. How would the Earth Cargo Service interact with the Federation Merchant Marine?
As a German, that Lufthansa thing sends me 😂 And as a Furry, your comments on piracy do that even mire 🤣
I feel as space-travel got faster and the travel locations became further, it became less & less practical to use ships only capable of low warp... this really limited Earth-Cargo to freight only shipments of time-unsensitive cheap bulk cargo. turning it into a very hard tertiary player.
Ultimately, in my headcannon, the death of The Earth Cargo Service was a change in technology and economy... namely, the replacement of cargo haulage with all-capable replicators...
what demand remained, i.e.: the carriage of smaller scale cargo
seems to be done in a large degree by by the non-capital ships of Starfleet, such as the California class and it's predecessors, the type always flitting about federation space at speed, & quite able to do most supply runs, as a side mission, without it really effecting their schedule too much...
such ships do also (if I remember correctly) have quite a lot of space to carry passengers,
though, this mainly applies to those who work at a space station, on an official colony, or in a Starfleet or Starfleet allied facility... other organizations (such as independent researchers, religious organizations, & asteroid based mines) do seem to also have there own suppliers and cargo haulers
mostly based of small vessels and runabouts,
however in-universe, the ability to travel really is mostly a function of ones ultimate position in the space society, and what kind of strings one is able to pull & how easily....
with a high amounts of excess capacity in the system, I am sure. if you know someone in Starfleet, or to a lesser degree, in one of the other organizations, you can probably always arrange to get a lift. at least in the central sectors or to Ds9 and such facilities
Kinziti?
Do you mean Kzinti?
They would have been annexed into Starfleet. As the corgos and persons transported would need protected. Medicine, important diplomats and cargo like industrial replicators and Antimatter reactors. Wouldn't be easily replicated... Plus Starfleet would have the resources to build the size ships cargo needed for future expansion and to service Federation worlds. In Deep Space 9 we saw the rise of privite cargo hullers do to Starfleet ships would have been needed for war logistics.
6:50 Soo....anybody else figure the folks who ran Centauri Spaceways had their employees wear their hair in a crest? And speak with a funny accent? Or is that just me?
We didn't get a lot of civilian ships, yes.
What a fascinating era of ship design and experiences for those who'd have worked and journeyed upon them.
Closest movie I can match to this era is arguably "Passengers" - which might give a clue as to the sorts of stories one might tell.
I thought the Romulans were more advanced than the Earth Starfleet during the Romulan war...were they really using "missles" during that period?
So with ECS and MACO's having to contend with pirates, and Vulcan's not sharing toys, or playing space cop how come there aren't more stories and instances of United Earth trying to capture, reverse engineer, and reproduce nominally superior pirate technology stargate style?
Well because a lot of those vessels aren't much more advanced. the kzinti especially.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 true but with the exception of the kzinti the usual suspects (orions, and nausicaans for sure, and maybe glory seeking klingons) by virtue of being able to reach human territory and run down human freighters all seem to have access to warp 2 or better ships. Considering humans themselves were struggling to break the warp 2 barrier for almost 100 years until less than a decade before the launch of the NX-01 it would make sense that they would at least attempt to make the effort once they realized how difficult warp 2 apparently is.
Where did humans get the iron to make multiple fleets of bison class ships?
So while I agree that original scale warp one makes sense for intersystem transport, I'm pretty sure I remember something about Starfleet officers never going to warp within system except for in the case of extreme emergency?
Good question. That presumes warp 1 is the same across all scales. Warp 1 in the 24th century could be much faster. Also at this point you don't have impulse yet so sublight is painfully slow.
Mayweather never got his due
Agreed
@@venomgeekmedia9886 now I'm imagining a J class pilot vibing to some country songs like the truck drivers of old.
It verry true civilian market helps the military market optics and hi resolution camaras for spring where developed by the adult industry
the starships get the glory, but they're supplied by the cargo ships. look at the real world navy, and the military sealift command of the USN.
Lol 😂 the bison have the old FedEx livery and pan am. That’s silly
I bet Lloyd's shipping insurance started to make just as much money as they did during the age of sale
The deal about not needing money in the federation. I propose that all basic needs are provided and then some. Those who wanted extra indulged in the various money markets available on most worlds. Something that democratic presidential contender Wang proposed.
I really don’t like how weak the cargo ships were
I’m sorry but your reading of 2080s made it sound like you forget what you were originally gonna say and just had to say something
Yup agree 10000% on the video's premise.
Let's face it, in any healthy civilisation the military (or pseudo military in the case of starfleet) will be but a tiny fraction of the total civilian effort whether you want to measure it in market terms, assets and so on.
But it is a TV show.... The voyages of the earth - mars shuttlebus wouldn't be as catchy...
Reference the Hummer as Military vs Civiian and get on with it LOL
German Lufthansa space ship haha. Anyways, human nations don't fully disappear anyways, they just become more of provinces. Picard family still has their French vinyard.
Warriors study war Generals study logistics and win wars
Sorry I'm lost 6:46
Nice supermarket music 😅😅😅
If I had to sacrifice part of my cargo I'd like to plant a nasty surprise in them like a hydrogen bomb to be found in a few moments by said pirates.(get ready for a surprise....BOOM)😂😂
I'm sure there were some who did.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 and the surviving pirates if they did, decide to try to sue for damages to their own ship.