Dear Trrill, when you say : "only here, we get to hear the sound-the actual and real context to which the terminology belongs", I couldn't agree more, this document is unbelievable. Thank you very much sir !!
List of musical pieces studied by Valdengo with Danise, which can be heard in the audio recording: 00:00 - Rigoletto: "Oh, don't speak miserable" 06:06 - Rigoletto: "Veglia, o donna" 11:54 - The favorite: "Giardini dell'Alcazar", recitative 14:36 - Falstaff: last notes of "The honor! Thieves!" 15:50 - Il Trovatore: Act I trio, opening recitative 22:00 - Il Trovatore: "Everything is deserted ... The flash of his smile" At 7:28 minute Danise technically suggests thinking about this: "The clear voice in the throat [throat] and the dark support in the mouth, ie no throat attack." (Which concretely speaking, in other words, is exactly what his colleague Giuseppe De Luca meant, when he prescribed "open throat and closed vocal", as reported by Celletti, in his book "La grana della voce") "Collected, eh? " (at 8:16) at 9:11 "Leaning dark" at 9:50 "Open your throat" at 10:13 says: "The secret of rest lies in spelling well, instead you escape the pronunciation and this is to the detriment of your breath, your breath escapes from all parts. By pronouncing aloud, you can't breathe. " at 11:10 "okay, but it's gluttony" - then, after Valdengo repeats the phrase correctly, he says "Here, you see it's okay!" at 11:37 "You must guide the voice with your ear, you must not guide the voice with your throat, with your ear, and you must understand when a sound must be closed and when it must be opened, this must guide it with your ear. " to 12:08 "More free!" at 14:36 "You must dominate the sound in this sense, never attack from the throat, because those who sing from the throat do not dominate the voice." at 14:50 "This is behind!", "Must do" [gives the example of a sound on the breath, free, ringing, head] to 15:08 "She does [sings No, as if it were Na-a] and is already in position! " "Say NA, without saying No-o". And after the example repeated correctly, he says "Do you see it?" at 18:40 "You don't have to force the voice, to get vocal effects, there is no need, the voice comes out by itself, there is no need to do [gives the example of an ogre sound], why not? do you feel how sour it is? " at 20:19 "You didn't understand that you have to bring the sound!" to 25:10 "To sing sweet and tied, you have to cover the voice not sending it down the throat." at 25:45 "Always on the same line" at 26:21 "You send it down the throat, the voice must go out" at 26:37 Danise says "Make 'a star', say O" at 27:09 [immediately after giving the example] "This is covered, but it's not in the throat" at 28:25 "you can tell me ... to" open the throat "without making any contractions" to 38:10 "you have to say 'lO' instead of 'la', it must be a dark vowel, not the dark position, the dark vowel!" "hear something Mr. Danise (at 38:48) on the high notes, which you want open in your chest, I call them open because I'm ignorant, but you always want them with O?" Danise's response is spontaneous: "Yes, of course, that's the covered, not the covered, you confuse between covered and covered!" finally at 39:31 "If you want to make the repeated note, the attack of the sound must be weak and then there must be the fork (
Stoy de acuerdo con Tigo.... Hay que cubrir en ciertos momentos. Ma......hay quienes tiene la capacidad de enceñar y otros no. ESTE DANISE....NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Giuseppe Danise - un gigante della lirica. un Artista perfezionista . questa registrazione è una bellissima testimonianza che il perfezionismo interpretativo nel canto lirico in quest'epoca esisteva ancora ! giovani cantanti dove siete,non vedo i vostri commenti ?! questa è la verità ragazzi,si canta così ! studiate,imparate,sentite i consigli di Danise in questo video ragazzi ! addio bel passato,per sempre addio . ps. ragazzi, la tecnica dell'affondo con la quale state cantando il grande repertorio da anni ha distrutta tantissime voci e destini ...
la cosa piu bella che viene fuori da questo documento è l'umiltà di Valdengo che cantando gia cosi continua a prendere lezioni..va be..da Denise..ma quanti cantanti arrivati a tale grado di tecnica prenderebbero ancora lezione..per perfezionarsi, per limare ancora?..da questa umiltà viene fuori la grande arte!!!
@@POVERISTRUMENTISTI Mancano sopratutto il rispetto profondo artistico e l’educazione. Basta leggere i commenti qua sul YT per rendersi conto che purtroppo c’è una fossa enorme tra la mia generazione e quella dei miei nipotini. il vecchio
Fantastic to hear this. Valdengo of course was Toscanini’s Iago, Amonasro and Falstaff in the great NBC broadcasts. A wonderful voice, if only we had singers like this today. Thank you for this treasure!
OMG! What an amazing find and a walk down memory lane. As a young singer from Montréal, I studied with a wonderful teacher, Richard Dorr at the Ansonia in the mid 90´s. This document is invaluable. Thank you so much. It’s as if my teacher was saying those things to me, although i am not nearly a great baritone like Danise and Valdengo!
This is spectacular! I wish I had someone to teach me like this in my beginnings! Canto raccolto, girare il suono, primo passaggio, e tante altre cose importantissimi !
Extaordinary interesting and useful document of immense historical and current value! I wish more young singers could listen to Danise's lesson with Valdengo and benefit from it.
Fascinating! I love these type of things .So rare. There's a couple famous ones( lauri-volpe) but this is new to me and one of the most satisfying. Hearing the fruits of danise's suggestion immediately. Very productive session: intuitive teacher marvelous student There is a coaching session With Richard Tucker somewhere thats great but this is better.
I can translate it and subtitle it, but I just need an Italian with good ears to transcribe it and catch some of the faster and inaudible phrases in Italian.
The ending where (38:47) Valdengo thinks he got it and Danise throws right at his face "Questo è schierzato", and after "schiezzar" the sound he goes ingolato is priceless. I can only imagine if Danise ever heard Del Monaco and the likes in the same room as his, and simply leaving the room.
Did Danise ever butt heads directly with Toscanini? Read Valdengo's autobiography, where he talks about his work on Aida with Toscanini. You can find the excerpt in the video description of the video "How Aida's father should sing according to Toscanini. Giuseppe Valdengo - Ciel! mio padre, 1949" in this same channel. You will see that Valdengo was caught between two completely opposite points of view about HOW TO SING. Between a rock and a hard place.
It's possible you misunderstood the story. Toscanini was upset with how Valdengo was singing Amonasro on his own. He sent Valdengo to Danise to have the latter coach him in the correct style. Danise imparted the interpretation that Toscanini wanted. Valdengo went back to rehearse, and Toscanini was pleased with how he now sang.
There's no way of knowing, but it's probably from around the same time. It's likely that the Falstaff bit was in preparation for the 1950 NBC radio broadcast Valdengo did under Toscanini (in one of his books, Valdengo talks about the specific way Danise taught him to pronounce "ladri" in this same aria). Between 1946 and 1948, he sang and Trovatore with New York City Opera and Philadelphia's La Scala company. He only sang them at the Met in 1949 and 1952. So these could be clips from various years.
@@trrill They are most likely from various years. You may notice that Danise addresses Valdengo "Lei" (in a formal way) in the first part, whereas in the following parts he uses informal address ("tu"), which suggests us that they must have estabilished some kind of a more personal relationship.
Not exactly; he wants Valdengo, in many cases, to clarify the vowels without opening them to the point of screaming. Or put another way, he's indicating that Valdengo is darkening in the wrong way by dropping his tongue back and down or by recruiting certain muscles that should be out of action in order to "add" or "force" darkness in a thick or "set" manner.
Comparing it with other texts, I interpret it as making the vowel clear/bright in the pharynx, the darkness comes from relaxing the oral cavity, jaw and lips. The vowel is only created by the pharynx and tongue.
The problem with teaching this way is that it becomes very frustrating and tiring and creates a lot of confusion in one's mind. What is necessary is a set of vocal exercises which prepare the vowels correctly.
The teacher would still have to do *this* with those exercises, which is precisely what teachers used to do from the 1800s on back for hundreds of years before.
While there is a lot of truth in what you're saying, there's also something I'd like to emphasise here - it's the fact that Danise is not actually "teaching" Valdengo voice here, per se. By the time this recording was made, Valdengo had been a well-regarded baritone who had been singing all over the world - most notably with Toscanini (I don't intend to claim that being a particular conductor's favourite is indicative of vocal mastery, but still, he had a career of a significant importance). Today we'd probably call this coaching. Now take a moment to reflect on how the term has evolved. Compare that to what coaching looks - and unfortunately sounds - like nowadays. Most if not all comments are either about language and diction (funnily only consonants are emphasised as working on the quality of vowels would require an actual voice), singing a hemidemisemiquaver or a trill (no pun intended) more accurately (like a well-tempered computer) or are some emotional/energetic/"musicality" mumbo-jumbo which has little, if anything at all, to do with genuine operatic interpretation and expression and usually just translates to "sing lighter and wave your hand a bit as if you were painting the air with an imaginary paintbrush" Best regards,
![ตีสิบเดย์ [FULL] | เปิดใจ "อาจารย์ เบียร์ ฅนตื่นธรรม" นักสนทนาธรรมสายดุดัน!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqaBI_mnoDk/mqdefault.jpg)
Dear Trrill, when you say : "only here, we get to hear the sound-the actual and real context to which the terminology belongs", I couldn't agree more, this document is unbelievable. Thank you very much sir !!
I think I'll just listen to this once a month until I die . . .
List of musical pieces studied by Valdengo with Danise, which can be heard in the audio recording:
00:00 - Rigoletto: "Oh, don't speak miserable"
06:06 - Rigoletto: "Veglia, o donna"
11:54 - The favorite: "Giardini dell'Alcazar", recitative
14:36 - Falstaff: last notes of "The honor! Thieves!"
15:50 - Il Trovatore: Act I trio, opening recitative
22:00 - Il Trovatore: "Everything is deserted ... The flash of his smile"
At 7:28 minute Danise technically suggests thinking about this:
"The clear voice in the throat [throat] and the dark support in the mouth, ie no throat attack."
(Which concretely speaking, in other words, is exactly what his colleague Giuseppe De Luca meant, when he prescribed "open throat and closed vocal", as reported by Celletti, in his book "La grana della voce")
"Collected, eh? " (at 8:16)
at 9:11 "Leaning dark"
at 9:50 "Open your throat"
at 10:13 says: "The secret of rest lies in spelling well, instead you escape the pronunciation and this is to the detriment of your breath, your breath escapes from all parts. By pronouncing aloud, you can't breathe. "
at 11:10 "okay, but it's gluttony" - then, after Valdengo repeats the phrase correctly, he says "Here, you see it's okay!"
at 11:37 "You must guide the voice with your ear, you must not guide the voice with your throat, with your ear, and you must understand when a sound must be closed and when it must be opened, this must guide it with your ear. "
to 12:08 "More free!"
at 14:36 "You must dominate the sound in this sense, never attack from the throat, because those who sing from the throat do not dominate the voice."
at 14:50 "This is behind!", "Must do" [gives the example of a sound on the breath, free, ringing, head]
to 15:08 "She does [sings No, as if it were Na-a] and is already in position! " "Say NA, without saying No-o". And after the example repeated correctly, he says "Do you see it?"
at 18:40 "You don't have to force the voice, to get vocal effects, there is no need, the voice comes out by itself, there is no need to do [gives the example of an ogre sound], why not? do you feel how sour it is? "
at 20:19 "You didn't understand that you have to bring the sound!"
to 25:10 "To sing sweet and tied, you have to cover the voice not sending it down the throat."
at 25:45 "Always on the same line"
at 26:21 "You send it down the throat, the voice must go out"
at 26:37 Danise says "Make 'a star', say O"
at 27:09 [immediately after giving the example] "This is covered, but it's not in the throat"
at 28:25 "you can tell me ... to" open the throat "without making any contractions"
to 38:10 "you have to say 'lO' instead of 'la', it must be a dark vowel, not the dark position, the dark vowel!"
"hear something Mr. Danise (at 38:48) on the high notes, which you want open in your chest, I call them open because I'm ignorant, but you always want them with O?"
Danise's response is spontaneous: "Yes, of course, that's the covered, not the covered, you confuse between covered and covered!"
finally at 39:31 "If you want to make the repeated note, the attack of the sound must be weak and then there must be the fork (
Very rare recordings. Singers too selfish. Need more. Why they cant understand this?
"per cantare dolce e legato, tu devi coprire la voce, non mandando in gola." !!!!!!!!!!!! BRAVO
Stoy de acuerdo con Tigo....
Hay que cubrir en ciertos momentos.
Ma......hay quienes tiene la capacidad de enceñar y otros no.
ESTE DANISE....NO!!!!!!!!!!!
this lesson is gold, and Danise's altercation are diamonds
Giuseppe Danise - un gigante della lirica.
un Artista perfezionista .
questa registrazione è una bellissima testimonianza che il perfezionismo interpretativo nel canto lirico in quest'epoca esisteva ancora !
giovani cantanti dove siete,non vedo i vostri commenti ?!
questa è la verità ragazzi,si canta così !
studiate,imparate,sentite i consigli di Danise in questo video ragazzi !
addio bel passato,per sempre addio .
ps.
ragazzi,
la tecnica dell'affondo con la quale state cantando il grande repertorio da anni ha distrutta tantissime voci e destini ...
che dire per Danise.... Giaiotti mi aveva detto che la sua crisi la ha affrontato con i consigli di Valdengo... Vedi la continuita' delle scuole...
la cosa piu bella che viene fuori da questo documento è l'umiltà di Valdengo che cantando gia cosi continua a prendere lezioni..va be..da Denise..ma quanti cantanti arrivati a tale grado di tecnica prenderebbero ancora lezione..per perfezionarsi, per limare ancora?..da questa umiltà viene fuori la grande arte!!!
@@POVERISTRUMENTISTI che demagogia spicciola.
Agli aspiranti cantanti di oggi manca ben altro che l'umiltà...
@@Tkimba2 sicuro...mancano insegnanti bravi come lei in giro
@@POVERISTRUMENTISTI
Mancano sopratutto il rispetto profondo artistico e l’educazione.
Basta leggere i commenti qua sul YT per rendersi conto che purtroppo c’è una fossa enorme tra la mia generazione e quella dei miei nipotini.
il vecchio
C'è l'avevo in cassetta quarant'anni fa. Stupefacente
Phenomenal living history! I love around 24:40 where Danise laconically says, "Non c'è male."
Grande maestro!! Aggiungo grande allievo!
Fantastic to hear this. Valdengo of course was Toscanini’s Iago, Amonasro and Falstaff in the great NBC broadcasts. A wonderful voice, if only we had singers like this today. Thank you for this treasure!
Is that " ingolata"?
An amazing didactic and historical document! Thank you so much for sharing it, Trrill!
OMG! What an amazing find and a walk down memory lane. As a young singer from Montréal, I studied with a wonderful teacher, Richard Dorr at the Ansonia in the mid 90´s. This document is invaluable. Thank you so much. It’s as if my teacher was saying those things to me, although i am not nearly a great baritone like Danise and Valdengo!
This is spectacular! I wish I had someone to teach me like this in my beginnings! Canto raccolto, girare il suono, primo passaggio, e tante altre cose importantissimi !
Moldoveanu, General Radames, Mauro Augustini and another teachers. I think that Martin Muehle was giving masterclasses.
Какой хороший канал, спасибо вам за работу!
Extaordinary interesting and useful document of immense historical and current value!
I wish more young singers could listen to Danise's lesson with Valdengo and benefit from it.
Great! And just imagine we can do the same things we have Douglas Stanley books and all these great oldy records to learn singing
This is an amazing archive. Thank you so much for posting it!
Thank you so much for this treasure!
Thank you thank you thank you thank you for this audio video. Listening keenly is critical to me. This is OPERA!!!!
Thank you for this amazing voice lesson
THANK YOU for this upload and this wealth of information. Incredible!!!
7:29 m “ Lei deve pensare meccanicamente la voce chiara nella strozza e il appoggio oscuro nella bocca” what a piece of information!!!
Gustavo Antonio Ahualli
e' vero che per i giovani che conoscano poco la base del canto lirico le parole di Danise sono un mistero totale ...
"appaggio obsura della bocca"? i know the words but whats he mean?
Jef Olson make bright vowels with your vocal chords, but don’t splatter the sound by widening your mouth
Cosa significa "strozza" qui? / What's the meaning of 'strozza' here? Thanks!
@@juno-m6061 Strozza=Gola=throat
Fascinating! I love these type of things .So rare. There's a couple famous ones( lauri-volpe) but this is new to me and one of the most satisfying. Hearing the fruits of danise's suggestion immediately. Very productive session: intuitive teacher marvelous student There is a coaching session With Richard Tucker somewhere thats great but this is better.
I can imagine Valdengo hearing il maestro singing the recit from la Favorita and saying after......oh shit!
Que joya!!! Extraordinario por la calidad de ambos y por su valor histórico!!
This Is wonderful!
Thank you very much!!!
Bravo Giuseppe "LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" Danise
A fascinating aural document of two great baritones, one coaching the other in a solo from Rigoletto.
Do listen all the way through if you have a moment! It's multiple sections of Rigoletto, a little Favorita, Falstaff, and Trovatore.
Perle di saggezza lirica, grazie
Wow, thank you!!!
Straordinario ❤️
Vaya masterclass del Danise este
UNA TEMPESTA, HABER QUKEN LE PODRIA ENTENDER ...
SISTEMA DEL SI PORQUE SI......☝️🤔
If only there were an English translation.
I hope you have learned italian already....🤣
0:27, passare al suono coperto
1.42, rimanere nella stessa posizione
2:07, Bidu Sayao
Wow... So Bidu Sayao is student of Danise.
@Barone Vitellio Scarpia wow...
@@mariofilippeschi4855 Husband.
thank! amazing!
La verità commuove sempre Punto!
Benissimo!
Thank you for this superb document. Could you please clarify to me what Apollo Granforte recording (or video) are you referring to?
The film of Granforte singing "Largo al factotum." It's featured on my channel page.
@@trrill Ah ok! Grazie!!!
Thought: Is there a good Italian translator who could subtitle this?!??
I can translate it and subtitle it, but I just need an Italian with good ears to transcribe it and catch some of the faster and inaudible phrases in Italian.
also would love this!
Federico Pariselli please do it
trrill can you translate please
@@trrill I am italian, if you want I can help you to catch the sentences you need
"Hai capito un cò"
E così possiamo riassumere tutti noi "tradizionalisti" dell'Opera.
The ending where (38:47) Valdengo thinks he got it and Danise throws right at his face "Questo è schierzato", and after "schiezzar" the sound he goes ingolato is priceless.
I can only imagine if Danise ever heard Del Monaco and the likes in the same room as his, and simply leaving the room.
I couldn't agree more about DM.
He says "schiacciato", not " Scherziato"
@@Tkimba2 what does he mean by that? flat note?
Ricordatevi di queste voci quando ascoltate quelle moderne
perfekt
🙏🙏👍🌺
17:40 “Sì, va bene, ma non c’è nerbo lei” is what I understand
Aha! Finally! THANK YOU!
@@trrill , no thank YOU for your excellent channel
ok I really need a translation hahahaha
th-cam.com/video/q3z2wheJWyk/w-d-xo.html
Seems like that 😁
Did Danise ever butt heads directly with Toscanini?
Read Valdengo's autobiography, where he talks about his work on Aida with Toscanini. You can find the excerpt in the video description of the video "How Aida's father should sing according to Toscanini. Giuseppe Valdengo - Ciel! mio padre, 1949" in this same channel.
You will see that Valdengo was caught between two completely opposite points of view about HOW TO SING. Between a rock and a hard place.
It's possible you misunderstood the story. Toscanini was upset with how Valdengo was singing Amonasro on his own. He sent Valdengo to Danise to have the latter coach him in the correct style. Danise imparted the interpretation that Toscanini wanted. Valdengo went back to rehearse, and Toscanini was pleased with how he now sang.
Valdengo can follow instructions. Danise no sooner said the words " dolce e legato"! And it came to pass!
Is this before or after the Toscanini Aida?
There's no way of knowing, but it's probably from around the same time. It's likely that the Falstaff bit was in preparation for the 1950 NBC radio broadcast Valdengo did under Toscanini (in one of his books, Valdengo talks about the specific way Danise taught him to pronounce "ladri" in this same aria). Between 1946 and 1948, he sang and Trovatore with New York City Opera and Philadelphia's La Scala company. He only sang them at the Met in 1949 and 1952. So these could be clips from various years.
@@trrill They are most likely from various years. You may notice that Danise addresses Valdengo "Lei" (in a formal way) in the first part, whereas in the following parts he uses informal address ("tu"), which suggests us that they must have estabilished some kind of a more personal relationship.
@@michelez3710 Yes! I think about exactly that fact every time I listen to this recording.
30:00
32:00
Valdengo had a funny nazalish speaking voice.
So he’s telling his student not to darken his voice most of times during the lesson, right?
Not exactly; he wants Valdengo, in many cases, to clarify the vowels without opening them to the point of screaming. Or put another way, he's indicating that Valdengo is darkening in the wrong way by dropping his tongue back and down or by recruiting certain muscles that should be out of action in order to "add" or "force" darkness in a thick or "set" manner.
@@trrill Thank you!
Comparing it with other texts, I interpret it as making the vowel clear/bright in the pharynx, the darkness comes from relaxing the oral cavity, jaw and lips. The vowel is only created by the pharynx and tongue.
Valdengo.... In fondaaaa... Danise.... In fondeeee. Valdengo's wovel is too dark.
The problem with teaching this way is that it becomes very frustrating and tiring and creates a lot of confusion in one's mind. What is necessary is a set of vocal exercises which prepare the vowels correctly.
The teacher would still have to do *this* with those exercises, which is precisely what teachers used to do from the 1800s on back for hundreds of years before.
While there is a lot of truth in what you're saying, there's also something I'd like to emphasise here - it's the fact that Danise is not actually "teaching" Valdengo voice here, per se.
By the time this recording was made, Valdengo had been a well-regarded baritone who had been singing all over the world - most notably with Toscanini (I don't intend to claim that being a particular conductor's favourite is indicative of vocal mastery, but still, he had a career of a significant importance).
Today we'd probably call this coaching. Now take a moment to reflect on how the term has evolved. Compare that to what coaching looks - and unfortunately sounds - like nowadays. Most if not all comments are either about language and diction (funnily only consonants are emphasised as working on the quality of vowels would require an actual voice), singing a hemidemisemiquaver or a trill (no pun intended) more accurately (like a well-tempered computer) or are some emotional/energetic/"musicality" mumbo-jumbo which has little, if anything at all, to do with genuine operatic interpretation and expression and usually just translates to "sing lighter and wave your hand a bit as if you were painting the air with an imaginary paintbrush"
Best regards,