Mozart vs Clementi: The Famous Battle of Christmas Eve 1781!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2015
- Mozart was invited by the emperor to show up on Christmas Eve 1781. There he met one of the most admired virtuoso players of his time: Muzio Clementi.
Today, so much later than 1781, we can overlook lives in a glance. But often, it pays off to go into detail. Some reflections on that evening in this little vlog. Take it as a personal note, based on some historical facts and supplemented with much fantasy...
Here are the links of the recordings mentioned in this video:
Clementi: Sonata A Major opus 2/2: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rG_h...
Mozart: Ah, vous dira-je maman: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OosUr...
Mozart: Sonata in a minor, KV 310: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzAf7...
Mozart, Sonata in A Major, KV 331: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cl9j...
Mozart, Prelude & Fugue KV 394: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtwpv...
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This famous rivalry would be an excellent subject for a short film! I would pay to see that.
Could be Amadeus II
Clementi Vs Mozart, Steibelt Vs Beethoven, Scarlatti Vs Händel (and again Vs Thomas Roseingrave), Listz Vs Thalberg... Music was so much more alive back in those days. It must have been incredible hear something like that! The greatest playing and improvising constantly pushing each other's limit. Wow!
yeah, and musicians were in the center of the society, imagine a king or president today calling upon a musician to keep the fame of his nation high!
@@AuthenticSound nobody cares music anymore sadly.. Not like this anyway
Sometimes I think Clementi is the developed form of Scarlatti (correct technique at correct moment to increase effect and gain more attention of audience) and Mozart is the developed form of Handel (gorgeous melody). What you think about this comment please reply.
Thanks in advance!
It does still happens. We are alive to see tremendous musical geniuses and virtuosos like Jacob Collier, Jesus Molina, Corey Henry, Quennel Gaskin, Justin Lee Schultz, Michel Camilo, Rubalcaba, Chucho Valdés and a large etc. Playing together!! Sometimes in collaborations, maybe not in a contest like in old times, but it happens. We are and can be, witnesses of a huge amount of talent gathered. I recently was in a Jesus Molina Masterclass, and man, it is obvious he plays other music that isn't "classical music", but I couldn't stop thinking about maybe that's how virtuosos musicians like Mozart or Beethoven looked and sounded in their fields when improvised. Music history is still being written and adding new names to it book
Wonderful imagery, playing, and personal narrative of this event. Thank you.
I really enjoyed this video, i dind't knew about the ouverture of the magic flute being composed by clementi.
I'm not entirely sure that the Zauberflote is the most famous of Mozart's opere though..
Thanks for all the passion you put in your works, i hope you never stop producing this little pearls. ;)
+RealHogweed Thanks for letting me know!
I'm working through your videos, and I am enjoying every bit. I had heard about this great "competition" whereby I think the Emperor wanted two great men to demonstrate why they were great. They say there are about four distinct generations, and those generations repeat. Clementi though a "peer" of Mozart appeared to have a more stable and humble understanding of himself, whereby Mozart was probably one of those spoilt kids you wish would wind up in another teacher's classroom or would be uninvited to your home because of his arrogance. Of course, geniuses aren't like the normal everyday bloke going about his uneventful life never to amount to much or offer much to history, are they? They are often misunderstood and appear sociopathic. It has been suggested that Mozart might have suffered from Tourette's syndrome, and if that is the case, then I understand him. Clementi was an engineer as well, so his genius was of a different sort. His music is intellectual. It is methodic. It is "perfect" and blends physics with nature. If emotions are had, you have to yank it out of Clementi's music. They're there ... they're just hidden in the perfection.
You're a great storyteller, Wim. I'm glad to have seen this video. Thanks!
Nice way of story- telling.
zeer informatief en vermakelijk, dank u!
+Remo Van de sande met plezier!
Really interesting thoughts and excellent medley of beautiful pieces. What a good way to get ready for Christmas! And on that note (or should I say, on those notes?) have a great Christmas and a fantastic new year!
+scozio Thank you for your wishes, I do wish the same to you !
I Love your interpretation of this famous encounter between Clementi and Mozart ... Great video you play wonderfully. Do you have your fortepiano yet?
...almost there! I was just with Joris yesterday, it will sound next week and I will visit the week after!
AuthenticSound I can’t wait to see and hear you play that fortepiano. I would imagine you will be like a child on Christmas morning when it arrives at your home.
Listen to Clementi's four symphonies or his Overture in C Major if you want to see and hear the genuis in his music. Mozart was not as talented as the public has been led to believe. In fact the Viennese doubted Wolfgang's abilities. This so upsetted Leopold that he secured a meeting with the emporer. Out of this meeting came the commission to write the opera La Finta Simplice in 1768. However it was immediately noticed that the opera had been ghost written, if not re-worked by other composers. It saw one performance in 1769 and the Mozarts received no payment from it. Mozart may have had some talent, but he was more or less exploited by his father. And many works credited to be by Wolfgang are actually arrangements by other composers. As is the case with the first seven piano concertos. Mozart was a private composer, only known to musical inner circles of the time and sponsored by the noble elite. It was only after his death that he gained notoriety. Much of it spawned by the mythical rivalry between himself and composers such as Salieri.
@@edwardyang8254 Thank you for pointing out the misprint. The spellcheck/auto correct on my phone sometimes assumes dates or words when you put certain dates or words in.
Mozart composed a lot of his piano concertos and played himself them in Vienna years. They are not easy to play, so I dont know from where you are taking this idea that Mozart was almost a fraud for Viennese public. And I hope you are not trying to compare the quality of Mozart’s with Clementi’s compositions because that wouldnt be serious. In 1769 Mozart was 13 years old, the duel with Clementi happened when he was 25 years old, so I cant get your point here taking facts about 10 years before the duel to judge Mozart.
I was so thrill to have this great sonata in B flat op 24 no 2 for my grade 8 pianoforte exam many years ago.
Really nice video! Very intriguing. I read a lot on the internet that the piece played on that night by Clementi is Op.24-2 then Op.11-2 as in Op. 47-2, but none of them give the source citation (do you have one?). According to Mozart's letter on 16 Jan. 1872 to his father, he wrote: "He improvised and played a sonata". Then, at least the order of Toccata and Sonata has to be reversed. (Also, they are kind of associated with contradicting publishing dates in as 1789 and 1784 respectively according to some references but apparently, Clementi stated the Op. 24-2 was composed by 1781 so the date of publication might not be a good indication.) Adding to it, as you say, Op.24-2 does not show the run of 3rd nor 8ve and Op.11-2 while it has 3rd and 6th, it does not have the run of 8ve on the right hand. Mozart wrote in his letter about the run of 6th and 8ve in his letter to his father, 7 June 1783, as "He writes presto or even prestissimo and alla breve over a sonata - and still plays it as an allegro in 4/4 time; - I know, because I've heard him." Op.24-2 is not presto nor prestissimo nor alla breve while Op.2-1 is presto and alla breve. Given that it was the only encounter, Op.2-1 seems to be a more plausible sonata that was played on the night, perhaps combined with Toccata Op. 11 which is "prestissimo in alla breve". Just my 2c as an amateur.
Congratulations again on your video!
Thanks Nat! No, to me it is not sure what Clementi might have played -but there are more educated voices than mine-, but most probably Clementi demonstrated what was common in his style in the early sonatas. Must for sure have impressed Mozart.
Clementi and Mozart are great accomplished composers in the 17th century classical period. They are both talented and greatly admired in Europe. In comparison to their contrasting style of performance and composition, Clementis musical composition are based rhythms and technical performance of scales open intervals and combination of chords that makes it sounds so virtuoustic that requires technical skills. Most of his sonatas compositions are precursors of etudes and scherzos or capricious because its not so much based on melodic phrasing but technical scales and leaps and rhythmn combine. On the other hand Mozarts composition are melodic. Its the focus on the main melody which is the voice supported by accompaniment a homophonic structure supported by primary to secondary chords that's forms a beautiful tonality. Even if Mozarts composition looks simple they are difficult to play because he will combine his composition with beautiful harmony. They are both genious.
18th century. 🙄
@@bc4315 you are right
Hello Mr. Winters, what a beautiful and insightful video. I write a blog called Poemshape that does for poetry what you do for music, but I originally studied composition and music history at the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music. I can't help but think your suppositions are correct. We do know that Mozart, when younger, was apt to be both vain and petty (much to his father's dismay). Mozart once wrote from Paris that he was so frustrated with the musicianship there that he very nearly employed his rapier. Leopold swiftly upbraided him informing that while he might be the greatest musician in Europe, he was apt to be a damned poor swordsman.
More to the point, it's possible that Clementi was gracious when Mozart was discussed, but we do know that Clementi was endlessly exasperated when musicians assumed his sonata was inspired by Mozart's Magic Flute (rather than the other way around). Poor man. In fact, the theme was not by Clementi but was given to Mozart and Clementi as the theme for them to improvise on. Clementi wrote down, from memory, the sonata he improvised based (or presumably close to what he improvised). Mozart did not. However, it's possible that the overture to the Magic Flute isn't too far removed from what Mozart might have improvised. That latter is pure speculation, but why not?
O, I like speculations like this, since they can reveal much more of the context than mere facts, thanks for sharing those! Nice to read something of your background, looking forward to reading you more!
Dear Mr. Winters, I'm very thankful and enjoy very much your insightful reflections on this and other subjects regarding music of the 18th century. Of course, I don't agree with some of your decisions on interpretation (most of them regarding tempo choices in allegros), but then again, it wouldn't be any fun if I did agree! Anyhow, you play beautifully, and again, thank you very much for sharing with us your thoughts and your heart through this miraculous gift that is the music of the 18th century!
Now to the point of this video: on which instruments did they play on tis particula ocassion? Does a reliable source or record on the subject exist? We know Friedrich II. had different Claviers at his disposal when old Bach visited his son in Prussia. Was this also the case in Vienna 1781? Did they play on one piano? Was Clementi maybe looking for someone to finance his keyboard manufacturing house while Mozart was representing the Andreas Stein and Friederici houses?
Thanks for your insights in this. Regarding tempo : there is something very cool that I will feature on the channel within a few weeks, after the partitas. We are way off of classical tempo choices (but even then: it is a personal choice after all, the question is, are we as musicians interested in coming as close what was in the composer's mind?) The instrument used: it was very early for pianofortes, remember Mozart just had one. Also for Clementi, he probably was not yet thinking on his pianofactory yet. I have no idea. A clavichord seems to be unlikely, for reason of the setting, a harpsichord was possible, but most my most probable guess would be a pianoforte. Mozart (to my knowledge) did not represent Stein, did he? And the Friecerici was strong through his dad, but did he himself had a business relation ship with them? I should know... but I don't !
Thanks foryour insightful answer. That's very kind of you! I just found a very thorough article on the subject. It is worth a detailled read. It's in German. No clues to the viennese court instruments though. Pity; I'll keep doing some research.
www.greifenberger-institut.de/dt/vortraege_artikel/spaet-mozart.php
beautiful video! I really want more stories! How is it playing on an inverted keyboard?
Every Wednesday, we have some sort of 'story' video, and... I wouldn't know, rather impossible I guess
From what I have read, although in public the emperor declared a "tie", he collected the bet he had in private meaning that Mozart won. Even more with the fact that the duchess was biased against German style, still would admit that Clementi lost. Unlikely. Also, from what the letters of Mozart tell, it doesn't seem anyone was impressed with Clementis ability to sight read and improvise. The critics made by Mozart do make sense when you look from the perspective of what Mozart was composing at the time and what Clementi was composing at the time. Theres little that can be compared. And from what Clementi himself tell, he doesnt himself put his skills on pair with Mozart. i dont think playing octaves and thirds would be something that would change that. I think the accounts how are told show a picture that Mozart won.
Spectacular! If I may, what proof do you have that Clementi reard or read Mozart's latter content?
+OnlyMozart1 Thank you for your reaction! Your question is very legitimate, and put me for the question that I in fact assumed that Mozart's letters would have been accessible in 1830, but I would have to look further if that actually already happened. It actually would be very interesting to know when the first letters were made public. So thank you for the necessary annotation!
best wishes, Wim
+AuthenticSound The biography by Niseen was published in 1829, but I'm not at all convinced either that the quotation was included in this biography or in earlier memoirs nor that, even if it was included, that there is anything that might suggest that it was known to Clementi. Except for that a marvelous documentary of course. I would have expected though to hear about Clementi's Musical Characteristics Op. 19 and the way in which Clementi tried to imitate Mozart's style. Would you consider making a video about this interesting work?
+OnlyMozart1 That opus 19 was unknown to me until now! Thanks for the hint!! I have his Gradus Ad Parnassum, of which I will play some fugues the coming months here (in addition to some beautiful Czerny p&f opus 822 I already recorded), but this opus 19 might be VERY interesting! Thank you for that, and if I make a recording of that, I certainly will mention you for providing the information. There is so much to be discovered...
+AuthenticSound You can find the edition from 1787 in IMSLP: imslp.org/wiki/Musical_Characteristics,_Op.19_(Clementi,_Muzio)
+AuthenticSound Here is Mozart's letter to his father about Clementi: dme.mozarteum.at/DME/briefe/letter.php?mid=1223&cat=
Horowitz interview he says he read how at first Mozart did not respect Clemente...but later paid homage to him in the magic flute
Mozart wanted to humilitate Clementi by making a master piece out of his mediocre melody.
Excuse me, but wich where the pieces that you played in the comparations?
+Nicolas Marques Ruiz Of Clementi: Sonata in A (th-cam.com/video/_rG_hKp7ADA/w-d-xo.html),
Mozart: Ah-vous dirai je (th-cam.com/video/OosUrP7lptg/w-d-xo.html) and
his sonata in A (th-cam.com/video/2Cl9j0-WPns/w-d-xo.html)
You'll find two additional sonata's by Clementi on my channel:
C major: (th-cam.com/video/orTlH9kEXek/w-d-xo.html)
and f Minor: (th-cam.com/video/ptC-Sy-BHzg/w-d-xo.html)
+AuthenticSound Thank you!!!!!!
1781 how lovely. A snowy scene. A Christmas Carol by Dickens. Ooh so Christmasy. Ooh Wim. "Hello everybody. ...."
You have to keep making videos. They’re better than anything else even Trum or Michelle Barbie or Terry May or Simon Cowell or Larry Grayson or the European song contest or even Mary poppins or even anything. Thank you for watching. Bye.
Clementi is much admired by Beethoven.
Yes, and by many others back then !
There is letter correspondence from Mozart to his father about the evening. He explains that he found Clementi a 'solid' keyboard player, but too 'mechanical'. In the letter he clearly states that he has respect for him but that the evening was clearly his. So in other words, it's not very likely that Mozart was 'mesmerized' by Clementi's playing.
Yes props to Clementi who was his rival. Mozart mic drop moment : “care to write some symphonies, concertos, sonatas, divertimenti, operas, chamber music, and masses?” just sayin. Oh, and Mozart was a virtuoso viola player too. 🤷♂️
I think mozart is the best ever in music history :)
Too slow.