I disagree with this psychologist. Coercive control, narcissism and lack of empathy, are abuse. The children deserved to have the benefit of the doubt on the side of protecting the children, not the father’s right to see them. Innocent until proven guilty is a standard in criminal court- not in custody evaluations or custody trials. This psychologist had the power to keep the children away from their father or under monitored visitation and this psychologist failed them. It underscores the importance of family court reform and making drastic revisions to who evaluates the best interest of the children and how it is done.
I’m not 100% in agreement with your assessment, but I’m 80% with you. The law doesn’t care about inferences- only evidence. But yes, this was a tragic set of circumstances.
Agreed. I just listened to the 15ep investigation on COLD. This dr is being pretty non-chalant, presuming he knows EVEN HALF of what I just learned. Perhaps he's desensitized by this point in his clear.
You are absolutely correct. Put the children's rights first -- those poor little babies. Poor Susan. Precious lives lost and others changed and damaged for life. Susans parents lost their innocent daughter and two precious grand children
don't forget how Susan was only given $20 a week to feed a family of four. The boys were starving and she was constantly getting groceries from the church and asking her friends for hot dogs
There was a mountain of circumstantial evidence, but without a smoking gun--DNA, a body, a murder weapon, something physical and more concrete--Josh Powell's defense would have leapt on the circumstantial nature and played up the reasonable doubt angle, Josh would have been released, and any new evidence could not have been used to retry him. So, since there is no statute of limitations on murder cases, they could have convicted him years after the fact once they had something more concrete. The West Valley police interviewed more than 800 people, followed over 800 leads, cleared over 400 mines throughout the state. I don't think the police could have done much more. From the interviews, it seems that people were reluctant to believe that Josh, despite his psychopathy, would have taken his children with him when he killed himself. Especially after witnessing that shiny happy little family scene when Josh and the boys were cooking together. He was narcissist, an actor capable of preserving a facade. And nobody thought it fishy that Josh had porn on his computer but denied that any of it was his? Personally I think the bigger neglect was on the part of child services in Washington. Josh Powell, if granted supervised visitation, might have had less opportunity if the visits had taken place in a public facility --neutral ground with others around-- than in his home. He couldn't have locked anybody out or hidden gallons of gasoline. That he was granted visitation in his home, where he could lock out a social worker and hide gasoline, is beyond all comprehension. This case and its tragic end is the result of negligence on the part of more than one person and more than one agency. The 911 call made by the social worker the day of the explosion which shows the incompetence of the dispatcher and the hesitation to send out units is painful and angering to listen to. Josh may not have been physically abusive toward his wife, but he was certainly emotionally abusive. And his control issues would have scarred his children had they lived. p.s. In one of the police interviews with Charlie, who was five at the time, he told the detective interviewing him that he was not allowed to talk about "Susan" or "camping." He didn't even have a sense that Susan was Mommy.
Very good question. After Josh Powell took his life, Dr Manley's assessment was made public. He then consulted with legal experts who informed Dr Manley that he could discuss his report with the media.
My ex was on his best behaviour too when being assessed with the kids by a psychologist. Never mind that he had beaten and brutalized them when they were babies and toddlers, and me in front of them. He had all the social workers charmed, lawyers and psychologists too. They didn't pick up[ on his sociopathy and narcissistic personality disorder back then in 1988. Or take into account that I had escaped illegally from his country 4 year earlier to save all our lives. He got weekend access for 2 years and went for custody, but his lawyer advised him to pull out of the case when my lawyer showed his lawyer (who he was shagging) the evidence I had against him. It was a big relief to know that once he had lost once and for all, he packed up with his new 17 year old pregnant victim and left town and we never saw or heard from him again. But he was allowed to harass, stalk and threaten me for several years before that happened.
Anne Boleyn it seems like there’s a huge disparity between a good effective competent psychologist and a bad one and that difference is the biggest deal in these cases! I’ve been to many and many are kinda disinterested or clearly have their own huge problems,. Idk..that neither can say - come on ..no freaking way he went camping at midnight and she just vanished! It’s gross and an insult to logic!
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or psychologist to figure this one out! No one leaves at midnight to drive 40 miles to set up camping in the middle of the night. The whole family is dead now and as sad as that is not a thing will change that ,no matter what evidence they find now! Disgusting!
I respect Dr. James Manley for sharing such a personally traumatic experience with so much professionalism and expertise, as well as so much heart (even though it didn't come through to me at first), and Dr. Honda for facilitating this conversation.
Yes. They were starving and underweight. Susan had to starve herself so the kids could eat. Charlie was always saying he was hungry. She would ask people for hot dogs and cheap food all the time. Everyone in the church knew how evil Josh was and they all tried to convince her to leave. Wa state failed BIG TIME
@@joanysohayda7233 Is that the only standout issue? Do you know how many steps there are btwn wheat and something nutritious to eat?? Or even from flour to something edible? I mean who was supposed to plant, irrigate and harvest the wheat? Also, the fact that Josh put on a show of cooking mid-afternoon with his boys when the social worker and psychologist were present would have been a red flag. It’s fake. Manipulative.
@wcolautti not the only red flag there were so so many we couldn't really expect more from josh he was a monster. The first comment was right. Washington state failed those boys putting a big fat red bow on those poor boys n hand delivered them cps supervisor style paying a driver to deliver them to the doorstep of what everybody including them to be there poor mothers murder. There by far the most disgusting of all. N they were even getting a paycheck providing there protective services every single dcyf worker should be incarcerated n held accountable for there discussing job n innocent children there job destroys!!! Absolute scum of the earth. N to do it for a paycheck is outrageous.
Aside that the boys showed no fear of Josh at this age, Josh was giving the psychologist a show. Josh knows that he is being watch...Josh was controlling the scene as pre calculated to show that he is a "good" dad...psychopathic narcissist.
The Psychologist stated Powell had ‘no history of domestic violence’. None that was reported to the Police that is. Coercive control is a bigger indicator of domestic homicide than violence. There was also massive financial control here. In the Uk 🇬🇧 most domestic homicides, there is no abuse reported to the police or disclosed to others e.g. Doctor or family, possibly due to a high level of fear of not being believed, as perp is so plausible in public, lack of confidence in the Criminal Justice System to keep them safe, or perp doing that good a job of brainwashing them ,they don’t recognise how dangerous / high risk the situation. Is. I hope the USA 🇺🇸 are learning lessons and overhauling the Family Court System. Here in the Uk we are battling to educate the Family Court to sort their shit out. I believe all the recognised indicators were there, from what is known today by Domestic Abuse Specialist
just watching the Psychologist said there was no history of domestic abuse - with apparent confidence. I think professionals merely look to see if there were any reports made to the police. (As if the abuse doesn’t exist unless it is recorded on police systems) Statistics support that on average, when someone calls the police it is approx the 37th incident of domestic abuse. Therefore, lots of unreported violence. 2 women a week are killed in the UK every week by a partner, or ex-partner. Analysis shows that in most domestic homicide case, the victim had never reported abuse to Police. 🥺🥺🥺
@@tenaciousduk6587 I dont know how, since she made a police report saying if anything happened to her he did it and his sister could give details. She has spoken many times on the abuse he did to her.
the whole system needs overhauling. justice was set up to protect men, it prioritises them, enables them to check off simple behavioural boxes. if we remove the boxes most men would fall at the first hurdle. i believe men will learn/ mature if more is demanded of them, infantalising them has created a massive burden for women.
It saved her life. I'm sure when she smelled the gasoline, everything in her being told her there was extreme danger. She went so far as to move her car - very frustrated at 9-1-1 operator not listening to the urgency of the call. Her call to 9-1-1 was heartbreaking - she was desperately trying to get help.
So odd and sick that Josh didn't stand up for his wife against his perv Father. Recording his wife singing? And other things? His Dad having sexual fantasies, lustful desires and delusions for His Wife!? And Josh didn't protect his wife and marriage by telling his Dad off!? Somethings are deeply disturbing here. Why would Josh be okay with these things? It was evident Susan was very bothered by his Dad. Rightfully so. Beyond creepy. I think Josh saw his children as his possesions not individual little human beings. Just awful.
Yeahhh, I think it’s more likely that he was lying about the marriage counseling outright. That Susan was never suicidal, and that he is just trying to build upon some semblance of an alibi the best he can. Just like with the police, he clings to this idea as an excuse for her disappearance.
This whole story plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. Only the horror is real. I cannot believe the twists in this case. Just goes to show how deceiving appearances can be. Those poor boys never stood a chance, and the entire system failed them especially. Failed Susan’s parents too. There is no rehabilitation of psychopaths, and sociopaths. They only learn through therapy how to better manipulate. Allowing that monster visitation in his own home was disgraceful. Certainly the children being taken away was a big factor. I am pretty sure that could have been the motive for murdering Susan. She was planning to divorce him. I believe he found out, and knew she would get primary custody.
I'm from Burien Wa., not far from Puyallup where the Powell's lived. This was a huge story and the media had daily coverage on Josh Powell and his alleged involvement in his wife's disappearance in Utah. Josh Powell should have been locked up long before he killed his children and those boys would be alive today! This story is so sad! My thoughts and prayers are with the Cox family (Susan Cox Powell's parents). Great interview! Thank you!
The kids said that mommy went on the camping trip with them but she was tied up in the trunk. Daddy took her out of the trunk and left her there and they drove home without her. . .
butitssummerma 1.Fresh snowfall on the Powell's property showed no footprints Monday morning leaving the house meaning Susan did not exit the home Monday morning to go to work like Josh told cops. 2. Susan's blood was found on kitchen tiles, living room carpet and back of loveseat. Cops didn't disclose this until after Josh died. 3. Susan left a letter to authorities in her safe deposit box telling them Josh would be responsible in the event of her death. 4. Josh stopped payment on the daycare check a full week before wife dissappeared - demonstrating pre-knowledge that his wife would not be around to stop him doing that. 5. Josh was caught lying to police about why he didn't answer his phone monday morning as well as being caught making phony phone calls to wife at work when he already had been told by his sister that the wife didn't show for work. 6. Sons told cops mom came on camping trip but didn't return. 7. Son draws daycare picture of mom in the trunk driving to campsite etc etc. Many, many murder cases have gone to trial on FAR less circumstantial evidence than this. He should have been charged. Period. I personally think he is one of the most revolting people to ever walk the street and I don't know how anyone who was around him after the dissappearance (and while he was dragging Susan's name through the dirt) didn't beat the ever-loving shit out of that little murderous pedophile. I am convinced he killed the boys because they were on the cusp of being able to articulate to outsiders what Josh was doing to them in their beds at night.
Stacey Shaffer I cant get over my anger at the cops for being so freaking complacent! Everyone who knew josh screamed he will hurt the kids if cornered! Thst very day she went missing it couldn’t have been clearer already that something very bad happened and with all they had - listen to the podcast “cold” and you can get the deets they had on that evening - enough to freaking arrest and get a search warrant for car and house. I’m appalled!
This poor doctor. Every person the Powell’s have touched have been impacted in many ways. I didn’t know any of them, bit I do live in Utah, close to the so-called camping site. Even I feel like there must have been some way to help...some way to impact the situation. He was evil. His father Steven was evil. His brother Michael was evil. We know his sister Alina continued to defend her brother and father, until she needed Utah to declare Susan dead, so Alina and mother, Terry could collect their blood money.
Poor Dr Manley you can hear the pain in his voice how can anyone predict what these awful people will do he was already getting away with the murder of his wife he knew that the Dr was on to him. Fault lies st the feet of the judiciary the children should always have been on supervised visitation. R.I.P Susan and her babies
This man has blood on his hands as well. He thought that he was a fit parent with no history of domestic violence. What a joke. He had the power to protect those boys and the information and he simply didn't do it.
Of course Josh Powell did not want to take the polygraph.....he knew everything he had been lying about would be uncovered. This is one of the saddess cases ever. How can a parent take a hatchet to those little boys. So innocent in all of this.
Yes, I completely agree. I think it was a combination of not having control over the boys wellbeing, being caught, FINALLY, over Susan's whereabouts, and what actually happened to her, was why he decided to end his as well as the kids lives. It's really incredibly sad as alot of us have followed this case since susan went missing. The way he killed his kids , makes me wonder , heavily, what actually happened to susan.
I believe Josh and his father were narcissists. Her depression was probably brought on by her marriage with josh. Josh sounds like a total covert narcissist….I was married to one. His father was like that with me…and had had numerous affairs in his first marriage and his son, my ex, followed in his footsteps. I’m thankful to have gotten out without more damage than I suffered. Narcissists are dangerous and narcissists breed narcissists. They are also known to killing themselves to avoid exposure or consequences. Very much like the recent gabby petito case.
This is freaking heart breaking. The only blame and responsibility lays at the feet of the killer, the husband and father. Him and him alone he owns all that happened it was his decision too destroy his life.. He was a fk up and couldn't MAN up. It Appears he learned it..
@Dana Davison I would not count on him having not killed the boys. If he was capable of this, he was also capable of going to the grandparents' home and doing the same thing there. It was just easier in his own house. He was determined to do this and carefully planned it.
@@pinkpugginz I totally agree. However, doing what he did to someone's house in the middle of the night would not be confronting them. He apparently killed Susan face-to-face so killing her parents would have been nothing to him especially if they should keep him from seeing the boys anymore. Piecing together what the boys had said, it sounds like he threw her down a mine shaft and then rubble afterward. What they said about how to kill a bear was a bit unnerving.
A narcissistic murderer couldnt live without his children??? Really dr? Narcissists are incredibly selfish and kids are beautiful little blessings that suck up every bit of your time, effort & energy. Soooo...doesn't fly.
He’s a narcissistic domestic abuser who is the only suspect in his wife’s murder and they allow him visitation in his own home. The rates of people murdering their children are low but what about the rates among domestic abusers? He took a hatchet to his children. It takes a certain person to be able to do that. When Susan wanted to leave him, he killed her. When there was a threat of the children being taken away and when there was a risk of him being exposed, he killed them and got away before he could be got. This is what abusers do when they lose control.
They should have been charged - they had enough to charge josh with it. It would have been a hard case but it’s winnable. The prosecutors there suck. The prosecutors basically tell the cops if they can win it or not. And it isn’t right. The cops should say he killed her here’s the evidence go win it. 🤦♀️ lazy prosecutors there. It’s messed up. It allowed him to kill his boys. Man that state failed those children. That’s for sure. And the whole family is sick. The mom was smart to leave. Good for her. The kids where sick along with their dad. And josh was teaching his son charlie sick stuff. The tap on the phone calls showed that he taught Charlie sick stuff. No wonder he was saying crazy stuff in school. He was around a house full of psychos.
I went into this prepared to hate Dr Manley, but just a few minutes in I could hear that he is a very careful, transparent and professional man. This was an excellent interview. Thank you for thoughtful questions. I hope he writes a book (if he hasn't yet). The 911 dispatcher in this case went on to evaluate his performance and now helps train new dispatchers to deal with these situations better. A book from the doctor's p.o.v. will not only be cathartic for him, but will help other professionals in the forensic psychology field. Some information that wasn't discussed, which probably wasn't available at the time, is the brainwashing Josh and his siblings underwent in their growing years under their father Steve Powell (who is a very messed up man). The paranoia against Mormons came from him. I'm convinced he is a very disturbed man. He was not in love with Susan, he was dangerously obsessed. Joshua was a financially abusive husband. It is extremely concerning to me that hentai and sexual drawings of children is not considered by that state's law to be (child) pornography. I'm sure that as psychologists you have a good understanding of what it speaks to in a person's mental state when they have 400 of those pictures on their computer. Again, I believe these things came through Steve's influence. I have no doubt that he exposed them to strange things in their formative years. It may be that Josh was following in his footsteps in his controlling attitude towards his own children. The part where Dr Manley spoke about Brayden, Charlie and the goggles, really got to me. I could picture those two boys so clearly as he talked about them. R.I.P.
Josh snowed him. No way in cold there are many examples of josh letting them run around invade peoplrs space and play in dangerous areas. This is confirmed by interviews. He was really deceiving and expert liar. Sharp as a whip and thats why he was able to fool the police.
All criminals hate being attacked in media because they want to control the narrative. They usually will try to put the attention on something else or someone else. Exactly what josh did.
Very very interesting analysis of this case. The honesty of the forensic psychologist was encouraging. His support of the DHS system and Family court process was not one that is customarily shared. In general they get a bad rap in the public eye. I have been a consultant as well as therapist for DHS and testified in family court. It bares significant responsibility and does weigh emotionally from exposure to traumatic events and content. Great job both of you did!!!
Is the psychologist on Josh's side or what? I'm getting a bad taste from this interview. It seems like Josh may have been the first person to manipulate a psychologist...
I agree. He said definitively that Josh didn’t abuse his children. Would Josh admit that to a psychologist who would determine whether or not he gets custody of his boys? This psychologist is part of the machine that didn’t protect those children.
Because he did Josh Powell is very manipulative he played the whole system I could never figure out why the cops never arrest him it's because he was playing the victim and believable
I feel so bad for the Social worker. She tried so hard to save those boys. The 1st call to 911 she said she smelled gas. The police didn't come out. 2nd call the house blew up! Then the fire dept came! The Utah police were very neglegent in this situation. However, gas was smelled prior to Josh, and the kids going inside, and the Social worker being push out! Good thing Josh locked her out, she'd be dead too! All of this just shows man's depravity! Josh's father was just as bad. He said he had sex with His daughter n law, and loved her. Constantly following her around video taping her. Glad he was arrested! Now they have to find Susan. She is no dought dead, but it would give the family peace of mind to have her found. Thank you for broadcasting this interview with the Psychologist. His insight was correct. RIP little ones, and Susan. 💕
THAT social worker was good. If you only knew how badly Washington state dropped the ball...or didn't even pick it up. Typical of Washington state in terms of protecting children. Btw...no one goes camping in the northwest winter. I live in wa.
The state has been ordered to pay those precious boys' grandparents 98 million dollars for their failure to protect the children. Listening to this guy was one of their mistakes.
I'm very surprised to hear that he was so intelligent. It seems to me that if that were the case, his lie would not have been so outrageous. He might have come up with a better excuse for his disappearance that night.
He was overconfident and didn’t expect police or her family and friends to be looking for her so quickly. He had to cover for things he didn’t think of beforehand.
I have lived with a man like josh and his children for 2 years. He could function as a father as in feed them, change them, provide for them, however they had to comply with everything he said, he was like a robot, no emotion unless he was using it to manipulate them or others. He would allow them to misbehave or get into precarious situations in order to punish them, for example he would watch them do something and allow them to harm themselves in some way so that he could tell them had they listened to him ie do what he said because he was right, then they wouldn’t have got hurt etc. so even though he was there providing for them etc he basically took no responsibility for their care, if they did wrong or hurt themselves it just wasn’t his fault in his mind therefore putting his children at risk. They are evil people who enjoy observing other peoples pain. It’s is of no surprise to me that he murdered them because these men don’t think with emotion, it’s factual from their perspective and they cannot be told otherwise. Dangerous individuals. No one can really understand them unless you have lived with them because they are masters at hiding in plain sight. They can abuse in your presence and you wouldn’t even know it was happening but their targets know. I disagree Josh was stressed at the time he murdered his children, they do not feel these emotions, you need to think of it as pure evil that will not make sense to a normal person. You give him the benefit of being human by assigning basic emotions, empathy etc he was in human form but they are numb and void of all basic decency and they do not care. This is not a murder suicide - it’s pure evil. He wasn’t punishing his children, he was punishing Susan’s parents by taking them away. I’ve looked evil in the eyes with my ex, I hope I never encounter it again. Unless you have lived it you cannot see it, even if you have studied it for decades.Imagine being their victim, narcissistic abuse is real. To understand them Dr Manley - speak to the people who live / lived with these evil people. You can learn so much more. God bless
Very good episode. Thanks! Interesting guest, hope there are more episodes of him (I am new here so still exploring your canal). Sad story but had to be told.
It takes more than a few days, weeks and months to diagnose a sociopath or a narcissist. You can't complete an in depth report in the time social services and courts expect it to be done. My ex had one visit with the court appointed psychologist and one alone with him. Me the same. That's inadequate.
I will be there in about 15-20 minutes to get this done and get your grades up to 4⁴⁴44544545⅝4454545⁴4544⁴44544454⅝⅝⁴554⁴4455⁴445⁴⁴445544⁴44445⁴444444⁴5⁴44⅝445⁴5⁴4455⅝4444445454⁴45445444444445545⅝453⁴4⅝⁴⅝545455⅝55555555555454444⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴44⁴444⁴⁴⁴4⁴5⁴4⁴⁴4⁴w⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴45⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴4⁴⁴44444⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴444w4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴4⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴444⁴4⁴4⁴⁴4⁴4⁴4⁴4⁴⁴w4⁴4⁴⁴444⁴4w⁴⁴4aw⁴⁴w⁴⁴ww⁴⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴w⁴⁴⁴w⁴⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴w⁴w⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴e⁴⁴⁴2q4w⁴⁴4⁴w⁴w⁴⁴w⁴w⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴44q444q333w1134q%qq3354q42q22442q44w333qq2w442wqq2qqq2qq3q
So true. Eight total hours of evaluation while getting very evasive answers (“I don’t know”) should not be enough to determine if a child is safe with a person-of-interest in a spouse’s murder. And taking everything Josh said at face value is another huge mistake. Taking it for granted that he’s telling the truth is akin to not really caring what his answers are.
So Josh puts on a show for his therapist and looks good making quesadillas with his sons....big deal. In one visit, this man should have seen the signs of Josh's controlling and manipulative ways.
How horrible that must have been to go through! My sympathies to the caseworkers and investigators involved with these fragile people. They must grieve heavily.
Sad to say that the psycho-sexual evaluation was the last straw and signed the kids' death warrant. Way too humiliating for Josh. It is a horrible test even for regular guys, so imagine for him. They should not have pushed him that hard. Would have been best to charge him with the crime.
Lise LaSalle - I agree to a point. The kids should never have been allowed visits with him at his home. The psycho-sexual evaluation was too much for Josh, but if the state had required his visits be in a public place, this never could have happened.
(Trigger warning: gory description: 57:00 ) I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Holy shit. Just catapult me into space and I'll figure it out from there.
That POS killed those children because they were remembering details about their mothers murder and talking about them to other people. They would be able to give evidence in court if their sperm donor was arrested and charged with the murder. He killed those children the way he did to punish everyone else he blamed for his own behaviour and inadequacies - especially their maternal grandparents and extended family. He knew his own father didn't give a shit. He knew that that the whole world knew he was guilty and he wasn't going to get away with it much longer. He knew he would never be free of the accusations and media attention and he would never be able to redeem himself. His life was over and he knew it.
Oh yeah...and this "the kids had good manners" thing. Smh. Gma & Gpa Cox had to train them very basic manners ie., dont grab food off the table, Share, etc.
Wow. Kirk, HEAVY ONE. I know this is almost 10 years after the fact but I completely missed this one so I'm just getting caught up on this whole entire story right now. The psychological aspects of the things we can only speculate are really frustrating to me more than anything else and wondering what could or might of been done that might have prevented the outcome which is the kind of thing most of us probably cannot even find words for and before I say anything else my heart REALLY goes out to your friend Jim for many reasons but mostly because he did everything right and his judgment of things and process of how he went about going about this in the most sound and professional way still leave him in this unfortunate predicament where I can see how part of him could easily blame himself for the death of the boys and of course this IS NOT his fault. Also, he had enough time invested in them and wanted to help them and you can tell they were good little boys and he genuinly liked them and cared for them and cared for Josh too even though... the guy probably murdered his wife. What I always find strange or odd is whenever I learn about something horribly tragic and just BAD like this is I'll always do a search to see who the people were and take a look at their faces and they always look like anyone I know and sometimes even people I wish I did know and ... that's just how the cards get shuffled sometimes and what can you do. So very very sad. Thanks Dr. Honda. I found this interesting all the same. Hey, maybe I shouldn't ask this because I'm not a patron yet (plan on being on in a couple days) but have you ever done a podcast about Abraham Maslow and his work on Peak Experiences. I guess he spent a lot of time pursuing this and I would love to learn more about this and also your thoughts on self actualization and how people are able to achieve that and why it seems so out of reach or difficult for most people. I have some other questions too but I'll wait until I'm a patron. I just found your website too and it looks cool. Hope life's good.
He basically taught his kids to hate Mormons and their mothers parents. He even accused her father of awful stuff to his son. So yea he exposed. The kids to his opinions. He tried to control his kids thoughts what they said and everything. To a very sick level
I have a hunch~ daddy Steve is the main culprit in her disappearance. Then the brother ALSO kills himself a few years later. Wonder if he knew then or found out later what really happened. Both adult sons were protecting their father. Hmmm...End of the House of Powell
TrueLies exactly what I thought ! I’m actually listening to it now. I’m about halfway through and it’s what got me poking around for videos. It seems to be very much the same as this with added details and insight! No “other” side!
He killed his wife, of course he killed the kids. Could she have told him, you will never see them again? The way the 911 operator handled it was bad. The way he killed them is just awful. He put an axe to their heads. I can imagine what he did to his wife
Everyone failed this family. Susan and her babies were murdered because people refused to step in. Or refused to go out on a limb for these people. Yes it was Josh who killed them. But they had ample reason to use caution and not allow those children to be with him. As far as Susan, they dropped the gun by not speaking up about concerns and findings. The boys would still be alive if they had acted. As far as Susan, if people who knew what her concerns were would have spoke up. Its possible it may not have gotten this rar. So sad for them and the family.
You can't blame police for Powell doing what he did to the boys. However, you can blame the courts for allowing this sicko to have any contact with the boys. Why? They were fine at their maternal grandparents. If he were to have visits it should have always been supervised and not at his home. This really broke my heart in every aspect from the start. That Steven Powell is right off the charts nutso. What happened to those babies really depresses me. I watch, read and listen to true crime and have for decades and there are just some that you never really get out of your head. For me this is one. Those babies were nothing but possessions to Josh and if he was going to lose the kids well nobody was going to have them and certainly not Susan's parents. Narcissist to the max with some borderline personality disorder. Only good thing to come from this is Susan and her boys are together in a better place now. While Josh and Stephen Powell are burning in Hades. Then another thing was that dispatcher when the caseworker called 911. I sure hope he isn't still a 911 anything. I know it wouldn't have changed the outcome but he was awful. I can't imagine the pain Dr Manley and others closely involved feel. I hope they can heal.
@HeleneEva2YoTehHe Idk but a gun would have been a hellva lot better than burning them to death! I've burned my hands cooking dinner & it hurts like hell! Those poor kids! Losing their mother & then this! If there really is a Heaven, Susan & her boys are there & he's burning in hell! That 911 dispatcher should be fired & I hope it haunts him everyday that he may have been the one that could have saved them. That man should have never been allowed to see those kids in his home especially since he was a suspect in their mother's killing! With his background living with a perv for a father that probably not only molested his sister but him also. He was probably a perv too along with the mental abuse & his wife found out & was leaving him. She even left a note in her safe deposit box saying if anything happened to her Josh did it! So he must have been threatening her. Such a very sad case.
Those children were nothing more than possessions to Josh. Narcissists cannot love like normal people do. When he committed suicide, he took the kids with him because he didn’t want the Cox family to have them.
To me there seemed to be several red flags that the police should have investigated. The couch & carpet were cleaned by Josh who set up a fan to dry them shortly before he took the boys "camping". There was some evidence of blood found on the couch. They went "camping" in winter, in the middle of the night, just Josh & the boys. The oldest boy's description of where mom was had some elements that could be describing where they went camping. So...why not investigate the idea that Josh/Steve killed Susan on the couch, so the couch/carpet then had to be cleaned. Josh took Susan's body to dispose of it, but had to take the boys along? Why was Josh's cell phone not pinged for his whereabouts "camping" that night to find out where he went then search that area for Susan's body? Why was it not established or ruled out that the blood from the couch was Susan's? 🤔
He had just bought the generator that was his porpoise for going in the first place so he could try out the new generator by laying it on a tarp outside the car and powering space heaters he brought to keep van warm while they slept in the car
My friend just recentitly told me about this case and that it would be worth checking out. I seen a couple short videos about it, but wanted to learn more. I took a gamble & picked yours. I most say I wasn't disappointed. I enjoy psychology' & at one point wanted to be a psychologist. But that's w way too much schooling.for my liking, especially as a 30 year old. When I clicked on your channel, & seen you did ones on Kanye, Trump, & O.J. I was stoked. However the one & only thing I would' change if I had too is adding cameras.
Some times things are better without cameras (visuals). There are multiple videos about people or cases where random photographs are shown throughout them that totally distract from the audio. [EDIT: After listening to the entire audio, I feel even more strongly that images would have been distracting.]
I remember following this case closely ...wasn't it a CPS worker that went to check on the boys and she didn't get an answer at the door ,the house was exploded as she was getting back to her car to leave?
Jamie Hoover A social worker took the boys for a supervised visit at his house and josh locked the social worker out, hit his boys with a hatchet and blew up the house.
The photo of equipment in Josh’s van shows metal rods, with wooden handles, traditionally used to make S’mores, was still bearing tags, not ever used. I live in Tooele. The night he took those babies “camping” was freezing. I live here. It was freezing.
Call me unusual if having cartoons and drawings of sexual nature, especially of parents with their children nude in a bed touching each other sexually is within normal/acceptable range. I find this extremely disturbing and a red flag. What kind of person is interested in incestuous cartoons/drawings?
16:40 "Vibe" is such a prose at this time here in the 2000's/millennium. Why don't you just discuss things at the base level of Paul Ekman's Work utilizing micro Expressions, body language and vocal intonation. I believe the audience is educated enough nowadays to understand. What the definition of a vibe is to give us more of a basis of psychological evaluation process. Or is the psychological evaluation not include body language, micro expression or vocal intonations? :-)
It wasn't the police - there were federal agents who also wanted to arrest Josh! It was the stupid prosecutors. The police and/or agents could have arrested him, but they would have been forced to release him 48 hours later. The prosecutors dropped the ball here.
Dislike this psychologist - he seems almost amateur. I'm from Scandinavia and there is no way a psychologist would talk like that here. Our psychologists are way more academic in their speach, more knowledgeable, more "dry". They would for example never refer to wikipedia as a source of knowledge about narcissism, but big fat textbooks. He defends himself, but honestly I think it was a disgrace to send these kids into contact with Josh given everything he observed and suspected about him. It was one big system fail, yet he claims they were all very caring for these kids.
DISTURBING...WASHINGTON STATE .....DOES NOT CONSIDER DRAWINGS OF .....CHILD INCEST...NOT AGAINST THE LAW!! I HOPE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO...MISSED HIS EVIL....HAVE NIGHTMARES...THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!
I disagree with this psychologist. Coercive control, narcissism and lack of empathy, are abuse. The children deserved to have the benefit of the doubt on the side of protecting the children, not the father’s right to see them. Innocent until proven guilty is a standard in criminal court- not in custody evaluations or custody trials. This psychologist had the power to keep the children away from their father or under monitored visitation and this psychologist failed them. It underscores the importance of family court reform and making drastic revisions to who evaluates the best interest of the children and how it is done.
I’m not 100% in agreement with your assessment, but I’m 80% with you. The law doesn’t care about inferences- only evidence. But yes, this was a tragic set of circumstances.
Agreed. I just listened to the 15ep investigation on COLD. This dr is being pretty non-chalant, presuming he knows EVEN HALF of what I just learned. Perhaps he's desensitized by this point in his clear.
@@dollymadison2397 the word is OVERCONFIDENT
You are absolutely correct. Put the children's rights first -- those poor little babies. Poor Susan. Precious lives lost and others changed and damaged for life. Susans parents lost their innocent daughter and two precious grand children
don't forget how Susan was only given $20 a week to feed a family of four. The boys were starving and she was constantly getting groceries from the church and asking her friends for hot dogs
I can't believe they never found her body. So sad and the poor little boys would still be alive if the police would've arrested Josh Powell.
Yes. Very sad.
There was a mountain of circumstantial evidence, but without a smoking gun--DNA, a body, a murder weapon, something physical and more concrete--Josh Powell's defense would have leapt on the circumstantial nature and played up the reasonable doubt angle, Josh would have been released, and any new evidence could not have been used to retry him. So, since there is no statute of limitations on murder cases, they could have convicted him years after the fact once they had something more concrete. The West Valley police interviewed more than 800 people, followed over 800 leads, cleared over 400 mines throughout the state. I don't think the police could have done much more.
From the interviews, it seems that people were reluctant to believe that Josh, despite his psychopathy, would have taken his children with him when he killed himself. Especially after witnessing that shiny happy little family scene when Josh and the boys were cooking together. He was narcissist, an actor capable of preserving a facade. And nobody thought it fishy that Josh had porn on his computer but denied that any of it was his?
Personally I think the bigger neglect was on the part of child services in Washington. Josh Powell, if granted supervised visitation, might have had less opportunity if the visits had taken place in a public facility --neutral ground with others around-- than in his home. He couldn't have locked anybody out or hidden gallons of gasoline. That he was granted visitation in his home, where he could lock out a social worker and hide gasoline, is beyond all comprehension.
This case and its tragic end is the result of negligence on the part of more than one person and more than one agency. The 911 call made by the social worker the day of the explosion which shows the incompetence of the dispatcher and the hesitation to send out units is painful and angering to listen to.
Josh may not have been physically abusive toward his wife, but he was certainly emotionally abusive. And his control issues would have scarred his children had they lived.
p.s. In one of the police interviews with Charlie, who was five at the time, he told the detective interviewing him that he was not allowed to talk about "Susan" or "camping." He didn't even have a sense that Susan was Mommy.
I blame the judge actually.
@@lynneharter5536 Brilliant summarization.
Very good question. After Josh Powell took his life, Dr Manley's assessment was made public. He then consulted with legal experts who informed Dr Manley that he could discuss his report with the media.
My ex was on his best behaviour too when being assessed with the kids by a psychologist. Never mind that he had beaten and brutalized them when they were babies and toddlers, and me in front of them. He had all the social workers charmed, lawyers and psychologists too. They didn't pick up[ on his sociopathy and narcissistic personality disorder back then in 1988. Or take into account that I had escaped illegally from his country 4 year earlier to save all our lives. He got weekend access for 2 years and went for custody, but his lawyer advised him to pull out of the case when my lawyer showed his lawyer (who he was shagging) the evidence I had against him. It was a big relief to know that once he had lost once and for all, he packed up with his new 17 year old pregnant victim and left town and we never saw or heard from him again. But he was allowed to harass, stalk and threaten me for several years before that happened.
Anne Boleyn it seems like there’s a huge disparity between a good effective competent psychologist and a bad one and that difference is the biggest deal in these cases! I’ve been to many and many are kinda disinterested or clearly have their own huge problems,. Idk..that neither can say - come on ..no freaking way he went camping at midnight and she just vanished! It’s gross and an insult to logic!
Excellent Interview.
Sorry buddy,but you were played like a fine violin
@@leeanne4638 What can be said to those that can be fooled? Pretty hard to get a person to admit they are a bad judge of character.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or psychologist to figure this one out! No one leaves at midnight to drive 40 miles to set up camping in the middle of the night. The whole family is dead now and as sad as that is not a thing will change that ,no matter what evidence they find now! Disgusting!
I respect Dr. James Manley for sharing such a personally traumatic experience with so much professionalism and expertise, as well as so much heart (even though it didn't come through to me at first), and Dr. Honda for facilitating this conversation.
I live in Washington. The laws here work AGAINST protecting children.
Yes. I live hear to. Your very right
Josh didn’t allow his sons to be fed more than once a day. No meat. Only Josh can spend money and he spent it on himself.
Yes. They were starving and underweight. Susan had to starve herself so the kids could eat. Charlie was always saying he was hungry. She would ask people for hot dogs and cheap food all the time. Everyone in the church knew how evil Josh was and they all tried to convince her to leave. Wa state failed BIG TIME
Doesn't make any sense to me them starving when they had 3000 pounds of red wheat sitting in there garage.
@@joanysohayda7233 Is that the only standout issue? Do you know how many steps there are btwn wheat and something nutritious to eat?? Or even from flour to something edible? I mean who was supposed to plant, irrigate and harvest the wheat? Also, the fact that Josh put on a show
of cooking mid-afternoon with his boys when the social worker and psychologist were present would have been a red flag. It’s fake. Manipulative.
@wcolautti not the only red flag there were so so many we couldn't really expect more from josh he was a monster. The first comment was right. Washington state failed those boys putting a big fat red bow on those poor boys n hand delivered them cps supervisor style paying a driver to deliver them to the doorstep of what everybody including them to be there poor mothers murder. There by far the most disgusting of all. N they were even getting a paycheck providing there protective services every single dcyf worker should be incarcerated n held accountable for there discussing job n innocent children there job destroys!!! Absolute scum of the earth. N to do it for a paycheck is outrageous.
@@wcolauttithought the exact same thing
Aside that the boys showed no fear of Josh at this age, Josh was giving the psychologist a show. Josh knows that he is being watch...Josh was controlling the scene as pre calculated to show that he is a "good" dad...psychopathic narcissist.
The Psychologist stated Powell had ‘no history of domestic violence’. None that was reported to the Police that is. Coercive control is a bigger indicator of domestic homicide than violence. There was also massive financial control here. In the Uk 🇬🇧 most domestic homicides, there is no abuse reported to the police or disclosed to others e.g. Doctor or family, possibly due to a high level of fear of not being believed, as perp is so plausible in public, lack of confidence in the Criminal Justice System to keep them safe, or perp doing that good a job of brainwashing them ,they don’t recognise how dangerous / high risk the situation. Is. I hope the USA 🇺🇸 are learning lessons and overhauling the Family Court System. Here in the Uk we are battling to educate the Family Court to sort their shit out. I believe all the recognised indicators were there, from what is known today by Domestic Abuse Specialist
But wait a minute, didn't Susan's best friend say he was very abusive?
just watching the Psychologist said there was no history of domestic abuse - with apparent confidence. I think professionals merely look to see if there were any reports made to the police. (As if the abuse doesn’t exist unless it is recorded on police systems) Statistics support that on average, when someone calls the police it is approx the 37th incident of domestic abuse. Therefore, lots of unreported violence. 2 women a week are killed in the UK every week by a partner, or ex-partner. Analysis shows that in most domestic homicide case, the victim had never reported abuse to Police. 🥺🥺🥺
@@tenaciousduk6587 I dont know how, since she made a police report saying if anything happened to her he did it and his sister could give details. She has spoken many times on the abuse he did to her.
just watching 🤷♀️
the whole system needs overhauling. justice was set up to protect men, it prioritises them, enables them to check off simple behavioural boxes. if we remove the boxes most men would fall at the first hurdle. i believe men will learn/ mature if more is demanded of them, infantalising them has created a massive burden for women.
They ought to give Aline Powell a polygraph.
They can't- even if she was a suspect she could refuse.
That would be interesting!
ABSOLUTELY!! Plus, i bet they'd find she needs in-depth therapy. I suspect tons of abuse, including incest, from their dad.
Ive no doubt that he and his sistsr, Alina were molested by Daddy-Steve.
@@dollymadison2397 yes Steve powell was sexually obsessed with his daughter Jennifer. He admitted this.
I am glad the social worker stepped away from the front door.
I know I dont know if I would have thought to do that
How did she not have any injuries!
Whew...me too. Oh my word...her 911 call..(nesides the 911 operater being a snot).
It saved her life. I'm sure when she smelled the gasoline, everything in her being told her there was extreme danger. She went so far as to move her car - very frustrated at 9-1-1 operator not listening to the urgency of the call. Her call to 9-1-1 was heartbreaking - she was desperately trying to get help.
She delivered those boys to their death.
So odd and sick that Josh didn't stand up for his wife against his perv Father. Recording his wife singing? And other things? His Dad having sexual fantasies, lustful desires and delusions for His Wife!? And Josh didn't protect his wife and marriage by telling his Dad off!? Somethings are deeply disturbing here. Why would Josh be okay with these things? It was evident Susan was very bothered by his Dad. Rightfully so. Beyond creepy.
I think Josh saw his children as his possesions not individual little human beings.
Just awful.
Josh is the same as his father.
@C R
Yes. You're right. It's just a very bizarre and sad situation all around. Thank you for your comment.
Yeahhh, I think it’s more likely that he was lying about the marriage counseling outright. That Susan was never suicidal, and that he is just trying to build upon some semblance of an alibi the best he can. Just like with the police, he clings to this idea as an excuse for her disappearance.
***** powell is dead --- no need to protect his confidence - too little too late- had this come to light- things may have gone a different way/ :(
This whole story plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. Only the horror is real. I cannot believe the twists in this case. Just goes to show how deceiving appearances can be. Those poor boys never stood a chance, and the entire system failed them especially. Failed Susan’s parents too. There is no rehabilitation of psychopaths, and sociopaths. They only learn through therapy how to better manipulate. Allowing that monster visitation in his own home was disgraceful. Certainly the children being taken away was a big factor. I am pretty sure that could have been the motive for murdering Susan. She was planning to divorce him. I believe he found out, and knew she would get primary custody.
That psych evaluation should have been done before any visitation was had. another case of system failure.
I'm from Burien Wa., not far from Puyallup where the Powell's lived. This was a huge story and the media had daily coverage on Josh Powell and his alleged involvement in his wife's disappearance in Utah. Josh Powell should have been locked up long before he killed his children and those boys would be alive today! This story is so sad! My thoughts and prayers are with the Cox family (Susan Cox Powell's parents). Great interview! Thank you!
+Stacey Shaffer Yes, agreed, it's a very sad story.
They have yo,have indisputable evidence to make an arrest. They didn't have any! How!
The kids said that mommy went on the camping trip with them but she was tied up in the trunk. Daddy took her out of the trunk and left her there and they drove home without her. . .
butitssummerma 1.Fresh snowfall on the Powell's property showed no footprints Monday morning leaving the house meaning Susan did not exit the home Monday morning to go to work like Josh told cops. 2. Susan's blood was found on kitchen tiles, living room carpet and back of loveseat. Cops didn't disclose this until after Josh died. 3. Susan left a letter to authorities in her safe deposit box telling them Josh would be responsible in the event of her death. 4. Josh stopped payment on the daycare check a full week before wife dissappeared - demonstrating pre-knowledge that his wife would not be around to stop him doing that. 5. Josh was caught lying to police about why he didn't answer his phone monday morning as well as being caught making phony phone calls to wife at work when he already had been told by his sister that the wife didn't show for work. 6. Sons told cops mom came on camping trip but didn't return. 7. Son draws daycare picture of mom in the trunk driving to campsite etc etc. Many, many murder cases have gone to trial on FAR less circumstantial evidence than this. He should have been charged. Period. I personally think he is one of the most revolting people to ever walk the street and I don't know how anyone who was around him after the dissappearance (and while he was dragging Susan's name through the dirt) didn't beat the ever-loving shit out of that little murderous pedophile. I am convinced he killed the boys because they were on the cusp of being able to articulate to outsiders what Josh was doing to them in their beds at night.
Stacey Shaffer I cant get over my anger at the cops for being so freaking complacent! Everyone who knew josh screamed he will hurt the kids if cornered! Thst very day she went missing it couldn’t have been clearer already that something very bad happened and with all they had - listen to the podcast “cold” and you can get the deets they had on that evening - enough to freaking arrest and get a search warrant for car and house. I’m appalled!
✅ very good interview. Such a sad case
This poor doctor. Every person the Powell’s have touched have been impacted in many ways. I didn’t know any of them, bit I do live in Utah, close to the so-called camping site. Even I feel like there must have been some way to help...some way to impact the situation. He was evil. His father Steven was evil. His brother Michael was evil. We know his sister Alina continued to defend her brother and father, until she needed Utah to declare Susan dead, so Alina and mother, Terry could collect their blood money.
Poor Dr Manley you can hear the pain in his voice how can anyone predict what these awful people will do he was already getting away with the murder of his wife he knew that the Dr was on to him. Fault lies st the feet of the judiciary the children should always have been on supervised visitation. R.I.P Susan and her babies
Josh Powell even looked creepy. His looks nauseated me.
His father too was very creepy looking.
@@IndecentAngels Creepy is putting it nicely LOL.He makes my skin crawl,they both do.Very odd people.
This man has blood on his hands as well. He thought that he was a fit parent with no history of domestic violence. What a joke. He had the power to protect those boys and the information and he simply didn't do it.
right. there was tons of DV
Of course Josh Powell did not want to take the polygraph.....he knew everything he had been lying about would be uncovered. This is one of the saddess cases ever. How can a parent take a hatchet to those little boys. So innocent in all of this.
Yes, I completely agree. I think it was a combination of not having control over the boys wellbeing, being caught, FINALLY, over Susan's whereabouts, and what actually happened to her, was why he decided to end his as well as the kids lives. It's really incredibly sad as alot of us have followed this case since susan went missing. The way he killed his kids , makes me wonder , heavily, what actually happened to susan.
I believe Josh and his father were narcissists. Her depression was probably brought on by her marriage with josh. Josh sounds like a total covert narcissist….I was married to one. His father was like that with me…and had had numerous affairs in his first marriage and his son, my ex, followed in his footsteps. I’m thankful to have gotten out without more damage than I suffered. Narcissists are dangerous and narcissists breed narcissists. They are also known to killing themselves to avoid exposure or consequences. Very much like the recent gabby petito case.
“I don’t remember” - the typical answer of a narcissist.
...he really remembers what and how Josh made the meals for the boys. Every detail of what they had, how he cooked it and even the brownies
This is freaking heart breaking. The only blame and responsibility lays at the feet of the killer, the husband and father. Him and him alone he owns all that happened it was his decision too destroy his life.. He was a fk up and couldn't MAN up. It Appears he learned it..
@Dana Davison I would not count on him having not killed the boys. If he was capable of this, he was also capable of going to the grandparents' home and doing the same thing there. It was just easier in his own house. He was determined to do this and carefully planned it.
@@GlennaVan no he was a coward. He would never have confronted anyone to kill them
@@pinkpugginz I totally agree. However, doing what he did to someone's house in the middle of the night would not be confronting them. He apparently killed Susan face-to-face so killing her parents would have been nothing to him especially if they should keep him from seeing the boys anymore.
Piecing together what the boys had said, it sounds like he threw her down a mine shaft and then rubble afterward. What they said about how to kill a bear was a bit unnerving.
A narcissistic murderer couldnt live without his children??? Really dr? Narcissists are incredibly selfish and kids are beautiful little blessings that suck up every bit of your time, effort & energy. Soooo...doesn't fly.
Exactly - made Josh look almost sympathetic there. Disgusting...
Agreed. Josh took the kids with him so they could never tell the truth and tarnish his “image”.
He’s a narcissistic domestic abuser who is the only suspect in his wife’s murder and they allow him visitation in his own home. The rates of people murdering their children are low but what about the rates among domestic abusers? He took a hatchet to his children. It takes a certain person to be able to do that. When Susan wanted to leave him, he killed her. When there was a threat of the children being taken away and when there was a risk of him being exposed, he killed them and got away before he could be got. This is what abusers do when they lose control.
The rates of parents killing their children are very high especially even higher since covid started
They should have been charged - they had enough to charge josh with it. It would have been a hard case but it’s winnable. The prosecutors there suck. The prosecutors basically tell the cops if they can win it or not. And it isn’t right. The cops should say he killed her here’s the evidence go win it. 🤦♀️ lazy prosecutors there. It’s messed up. It allowed him to kill his boys. Man that state failed those children. That’s for sure. And the whole family is sick. The mom was smart to leave. Good for her. The kids where sick along with their dad. And josh was teaching his son charlie sick stuff. The tap on the phone calls showed that he taught Charlie sick stuff. No wonder he was saying crazy stuff in school. He was around a house full of psychos.
I went into this prepared to hate Dr Manley, but just a few minutes in I could hear that he is a very careful, transparent and professional man.
This was an excellent interview. Thank you for thoughtful questions.
I hope he writes a book (if he hasn't yet). The 911 dispatcher in this case went on to evaluate his performance and now helps train new dispatchers to deal with these situations better. A book from the doctor's p.o.v. will not only be cathartic for him, but will help other professionals in the forensic psychology field.
Some information that wasn't discussed, which probably wasn't available at the time, is the brainwashing Josh and his siblings underwent in their growing years under their father Steve Powell (who is a very messed up man). The paranoia against Mormons came from him. I'm convinced he is a very disturbed man. He was not in love with Susan, he was dangerously obsessed.
Joshua was a financially abusive husband.
It is extremely concerning to me that hentai and sexual drawings of children is not considered by that state's law to be (child) pornography. I'm sure that as psychologists you have a good understanding of what it speaks to in a person's mental state when they have 400 of those pictures on their computer. Again, I believe these things came through Steve's influence. I have no doubt that he exposed them to strange things in their formative years.
It may be that Josh was following in his footsteps in his controlling attitude towards his own children.
The part where Dr Manley spoke about Brayden, Charlie and the goggles, really got to me. I could picture those two boys so clearly as he talked about them.
R.I.P.
Josh snowed him. No way in cold there are many examples of josh letting them run around invade peoplrs space and play in dangerous areas. This is confirmed by interviews. He was really deceiving and expert liar. Sharp as a whip and thats why he was able to fool the police.
Fascinating discussion, thank you.
All criminals hate being attacked in media because they want to control the narrative. They usually will try to put the attention on something else or someone else. Exactly what josh did.
Everyone involved in this let these children down. To say their safety was paramount is actually a laughable phrase to hear.
Very very interesting analysis of this case. The honesty of the forensic psychologist was encouraging. His support of the DHS system and Family court process was not one that is customarily shared. In general they get a bad rap in the public eye. I have been a consultant as well as therapist for DHS and testified in family court. It bares significant responsibility and does weigh emotionally from exposure to traumatic events and content. Great job both of you did!!!
Is the psychologist on Josh's side or what? I'm getting a bad taste from this interview. It seems like Josh may have been the first person to manipulate a psychologist...
Left a bad taste in my mouth too.
I agree. He said definitively that Josh didn’t abuse his children. Would Josh admit that to a psychologist who would determine whether or not he gets custody of his boys? This psychologist is part of the machine that didn’t protect those children.
Just remember the psychologist didn't know what we know. We have a broad view. He sees a dad making dinner.
why do I feel like Josh played this psychologist like a fiddle ?
Because he did Josh Powell is very manipulative he played the whole system I could never figure out why the cops never arrest him it's because he was playing the victim and believable
He played any and everyone he ever came into contact with, as best I can tell 🤦
It sounds like this doctor pegged his personality and behavioral traits correctly.
@Julie Sprik One can only report on what one has observed. He made it clear numerous times that he could tell Josh was on good behavior.
You must have watched the 15ep doc on COLD.
I feel so bad for the Social worker. She tried so hard to save those boys. The 1st call to 911 she said she smelled gas. The police didn't come out. 2nd call the house blew up! Then the fire dept came! The Utah police were very neglegent in this situation. However, gas was smelled prior to Josh, and the kids going inside, and the Social worker being push out! Good thing Josh locked her out, she'd be dead too!
All of this just shows man's depravity! Josh's father was just as bad.
He said he had sex with His daughter n law, and loved her. Constantly following her around video taping her. Glad he was arrested!
Now they have to find Susan. She is no dought dead, but it would give the family peace of mind to have her found.
Thank you for broadcasting this interview with the Psychologist. His insight was correct.
RIP little ones, and Susan. 💕
Sandra Mcdaniel Utah police are a fucking joke. I live here. They are a problem.
THAT social worker was good. If you only knew how badly Washington state dropped the ball...or didn't even pick it up. Typical of Washington state in terms of protecting children. Btw...no one goes camping in the northwest winter. I live in wa.
The state has been ordered to pay those precious boys' grandparents 98 million dollars for their failure to protect the children. Listening to this guy was one of their mistakes.
I'm very surprised to hear that he was so intelligent. It seems to me that if that were the case, his lie would not have been so outrageous. He might have come up with a better excuse for his disappearance that night.
Yes, perhaps.
He was overconfident and didn’t expect police or her family and friends to be looking for her so quickly. He had to cover for things he didn’t think of beforehand.
His excuse worked.... He got away with it!!!. .. .
This many years later, I’m seeing some parallels to Shanda Van Der Ark
I have lived with a man like josh and his children for 2 years. He could function as a father as in feed them, change them, provide for them, however they had to comply with everything he said, he was like a robot, no emotion unless he was using it to manipulate them or others. He would allow them to misbehave or get into precarious situations in order to punish them, for example he would watch them do something and allow them to harm themselves in some way so that he could tell them had they listened to him ie do what he said because he was right, then they wouldn’t have got hurt etc. so even though he was there providing for them etc he basically took no responsibility for their care, if they did wrong or hurt themselves it just wasn’t his fault in his mind therefore putting his children at risk. They are evil people who enjoy observing other peoples pain.
It’s is of no surprise to me that he murdered them because these men don’t think with emotion, it’s factual from their perspective and they cannot be told otherwise. Dangerous individuals. No one can really understand them unless you have lived with them because they are masters at hiding in plain sight. They can abuse in your presence and you wouldn’t even know it was happening but their targets know. I disagree Josh was stressed at the time he murdered his children, they do not feel these emotions, you need to think of it as pure evil that will not make sense to a normal person. You give him the benefit of being human by assigning basic emotions, empathy etc he was in human form but they are numb and void of all basic decency and they do not care. This is not a murder suicide - it’s pure evil. He wasn’t punishing his children, he was punishing Susan’s parents by taking them away. I’ve looked evil in the eyes with my ex, I hope I never encounter it again.
Unless you have lived it you cannot see it, even if you have studied it for decades.Imagine being their victim, narcissistic abuse is real. To understand them Dr Manley - speak to the people who live / lived with these evil people. You can learn so much more. God bless
It wasn't a disaster. It was a crime.
Stevens attraction was OBSESSION. It was super sick. Listening to the podcast COLD.
Very good episode. Thanks! Interesting guest, hope there are more episodes of him (I am new here so still exploring your canal). Sad story but had to be told.
Your guest sound like very professional person.
Yes. He's great.
nesa1126 careful down there.
will you be conducting anymore interviews with this Psychologist? i sincerely hope so!
Scott Wilson lmao!! Dirty minds think alike.
It takes more than a few days, weeks and months to diagnose a sociopath or a narcissist. You can't complete an in depth report in the time social services and courts expect it to be done. My ex had one visit with the court appointed psychologist and one alone with him. Me the same. That's inadequate.
Agreed.
I will be there in about 15-20 minutes to get this done and get your grades up to 4⁴⁴44544545⅝4454545⁴4544⁴44544454⅝⅝⁴554⁴4455⁴445⁴⁴445544⁴44445⁴444444⁴5⁴44⅝445⁴5⁴4455⅝4444445454⁴45445444444445545⅝453⁴4⅝⁴⅝545455⅝55555555555454444⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴44⁴444⁴⁴⁴4⁴5⁴4⁴⁴4⁴w⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴45⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴44⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴4⁴⁴44444⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴444w4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴4⁴4⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴444⁴4⁴4⁴⁴4⁴4⁴4⁴4⁴⁴w4⁴4⁴⁴444⁴4w⁴⁴4aw⁴⁴w⁴⁴ww⁴⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴w⁴⁴⁴w⁴⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴w⁴w⁴ww⁴⁴⁴⁴e⁴⁴⁴2q4w⁴⁴4⁴w⁴w⁴⁴w⁴w⁴⁴⁴4⁴⁴⁴44q444q333w1134q%qq3354q42q22442q44w333qq2w442wqq2qqq2qq3q
Chris Cowan....?????
@@PsychologyInSeattle aww
So true. Eight total hours of evaluation while getting very evasive answers (“I don’t know”) should not be enough to determine if a child is safe with a person-of-interest in a spouse’s murder. And taking everything Josh said at face value is another huge mistake. Taking it for granted that he’s telling the truth is akin to not really caring what his answers are.
So Josh puts on a show for his therapist and looks good making quesadillas with his sons....big deal. In one visit, this man should have seen the signs of Josh's controlling and manipulative ways.
They never do.
How horrible that must have been to go through! My sympathies to the caseworkers and investigators involved with these fragile people. They must grieve heavily.
Sad to say that the psycho-sexual evaluation was the last straw and signed the kids' death warrant. Way too humiliating for Josh. It is a horrible test even for regular guys, so imagine for him. They should not have pushed him that hard. Would have been best to charge him with the crime.
Lise LaSalle - I agree to a point. The kids should never have been allowed visits with him at his home. The psycho-sexual evaluation was too much for Josh, but if the state had required his visits be in a public place, this never could have happened.
@@stephaniewagner6282 Agreed
(Trigger warning: gory description: 57:00 )
I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Holy shit. Just catapult me into space and I'll figure it out from there.
I doubt Braydon was reading directions of the project, he was only 3-4 years old.
That POS killed those children because they were remembering details about their mothers murder and talking about them to other people. They would be able to give evidence in court if their sperm donor was arrested and charged with the murder. He killed those children the way he did to punish everyone else he blamed for his own behaviour and inadequacies - especially their maternal grandparents and extended family. He knew his own father didn't give a shit. He knew that that the whole world knew he was guilty and he wasn't going to get away with it much longer. He knew he would never be free of the accusations and media attention and he would never be able to redeem himself. His life was over and he knew it.
Oh yeah...and this "the kids had good manners" thing. Smh. Gma & Gpa Cox had to train them very basic manners ie., dont grab food off the table, Share, etc.
Wow. Kirk, HEAVY ONE. I know this is almost 10 years after the fact but I completely missed this one so I'm just getting caught up on this whole entire story right now. The psychological aspects of the things we can only speculate are really frustrating to me more than anything else and wondering what could or might of been done that might have prevented the outcome which is the kind of thing most of us probably cannot even find words for and before I say anything else my heart REALLY goes out to your friend Jim for many reasons but mostly because he did everything right and his judgment of things and process of how he went about going about this in the most sound and professional way still leave him in this unfortunate predicament where I can see how part of him could easily blame himself for the death of the boys and of course this IS NOT his fault. Also, he had enough time invested in them and wanted to help them and you can tell they were good little boys and he genuinly liked them and cared for them and cared for Josh too even though... the guy probably murdered his wife. What I always find strange or odd is whenever I learn about something horribly tragic and just BAD like this is I'll always do a search to see who the people were and take a look at their faces and they always look like anyone I know and sometimes even people I wish I did know and ... that's just how the cards get shuffled sometimes and what can you do. So very very sad. Thanks Dr. Honda. I found this interesting all the same. Hey, maybe I shouldn't ask this because I'm not a patron yet (plan on being on in a couple days) but have you ever done a podcast about Abraham Maslow and his work on Peak Experiences. I guess he spent a lot of time pursuing this and I would love to learn more about this and also your thoughts on self actualization and how people are able to achieve that and why it seems so out of reach or difficult for most people. I have some other questions too but I'll wait until I'm a patron. I just found your website too and it looks cool. Hope life's good.
Yeah, rough case for Dr. Jim. Traumatic. Thanks for the compassion.
Watch the cold podcast. All about this case.
He basically taught his kids to hate Mormons and their mothers parents. He even accused her father of awful stuff to his son. So yea he exposed. The kids to his opinions. He tried to control his kids thoughts what they said and everything. To a very sick level
Thank you, very interesting insight.
Laura taylor Thanks, Laura!
I have a hunch~ daddy Steve is the main culprit in her disappearance. Then the brother ALSO kills himself a few years later. Wonder if he knew then or found out later what really happened. Both adult sons were protecting their father. Hmmm...End of the House of Powell
Also Try thecoldpodcast.com to see another side
sabryan02ify what do you mean another side?
TrueLies exactly what I thought ! I’m actually listening to it now. I’m about halfway through and it’s what got me poking around for videos. It seems to be very much the same as this with added details and insight! No “other” side!
He killed his wife, of course he killed the kids. Could she have told him, you will never see them again? The way the 911 operator handled it was bad. The way he killed them is just awful. He put an axe to their heads. I can imagine what he did to his wife
Everyone failed this family. Susan and her babies were murdered because people refused to step in. Or refused to go out on a limb for these people.
Yes it was Josh who killed them. But they had ample reason to use caution and not allow those children to be with him. As far as Susan, they dropped the gun by not speaking up about concerns and findings.
The boys would still be alive if they had acted.
As far as Susan, if people who knew what her concerns were would have spoke up. Its possible it may not have gotten this rar.
So sad for them and the family.
You can't blame police for Powell doing what he did to the boys. However, you can blame the courts for allowing this sicko to have any contact with the boys. Why? They were fine at their maternal grandparents. If he were to have visits it should have always been supervised and not at his home. This really broke my heart in every aspect from the start. That Steven Powell is right off the charts nutso. What happened to those babies really depresses me. I watch, read and listen to true crime and have for decades and there are just some that you never really get out of your head. For me this is one. Those babies were nothing but possessions to Josh and if he was going to lose the kids well nobody was going to have them and certainly not Susan's parents. Narcissist to the max with some borderline personality disorder. Only good thing to come from this is Susan and her boys are together in a better place now. While Josh and Stephen Powell are burning in Hades. Then another thing was that dispatcher when the caseworker called 911. I sure hope he isn't still a 911 anything. I know it wouldn't have changed the outcome but he was awful. I can't imagine the pain Dr Manley and others closely involved feel. I hope they can heal.
@HeleneEva2YoTehHe Idk but a gun would have been a hellva lot better than burning them to death! I've burned my hands cooking dinner & it hurts like hell! Those poor kids! Losing their mother & then this! If there really is a Heaven, Susan & her boys are there & he's burning in hell! That 911 dispatcher should be fired & I hope it haunts him everyday that he may have been the one that could have saved them. That man should have never been allowed to see those kids in his home especially since he was a suspect in their mother's killing! With his background living with a perv for a father that probably not only molested his sister but him also. He was probably a perv too along with the mental abuse & his wife found out & was leaving him. She even left a note in her safe deposit box saying if anything happened to her Josh did it! So he must have been threatening her. Such a very sad case.
Those children were nothing more than possessions to Josh. Narcissists cannot love like normal people do. When he committed suicide, he took the kids with him because he didn’t want the Cox family to have them.
To me there seemed to be several red flags that the police should have investigated. The couch & carpet were cleaned by Josh who set up a fan to dry them shortly before he took the boys "camping". There was some evidence of blood found on the couch. They went "camping" in winter, in the middle of the night, just Josh & the boys. The oldest boy's description of where mom was had some elements that could be describing where they went camping. So...why not investigate the idea that Josh/Steve killed Susan on the couch, so the couch/carpet then had to be cleaned. Josh took Susan's body to dispose of it, but had to take the boys along? Why was Josh's cell phone not pinged for his whereabouts "camping" that night to find out where he went then search that area for Susan's body? Why was it not established or ruled out that the blood from the couch was Susan's? 🤔
He had just bought the generator that was his porpoise for going in the first place so he could try out the new generator by laying it on a tarp outside the car and powering space heaters he brought to keep van warm while they slept in the car
My friend just recentitly told me about this case and that it would be worth checking out.
I seen a couple short videos about it, but wanted to learn more. I took a gamble & picked yours. I most say I wasn't disappointed. I enjoy psychology' & at one point wanted to be a psychologist. But that's w
way too much schooling.for my liking, especially as a 30 year old.
When I clicked on your channel, & seen you did ones on Kanye, Trump, & O.J.
I was stoked.
However the one & only thing I would' change if I had too is adding cameras.
Thanks! Will do!
Some times things are better without cameras (visuals). There are multiple videos about people or cases where random photographs are shown throughout them that totally distract from the audio.
[EDIT: After listening to the entire audio, I feel even more strongly that images would have been distracting.]
No one is blaming the psychiatrist.
If you knew the details of this case, you wouldn’t be so forgiving of this sorry excuse for a doctor.
I know that Dr. James Manley's life is also changed forever from being the forensic psycologist on this horrible case.
I enjoyed this host...
I watched a video of josh putting up blinds with his kids. There was something off about it. Not overtly abusive but mean and controlling
I remember following this case closely ...wasn't it a CPS worker that went to check on the boys and she didn't get an answer at the door ,the house was exploded as she was getting back to her car to leave?
Jamie Hoover A social worker took the boys for a supervised visit at his house and josh locked the social worker out, hit his boys with a hatchet and blew up the house.
The photo of equipment in Josh’s van shows metal rods, with wooden handles, traditionally used to make S’mores, was still bearing tags, not ever used. I live in Tooele. The night he took those babies “camping” was freezing. I live here. It was freezing.
Disappointed the interviewers who would not allow the interviewee to answer the questions.
Glad I found the upload. Still enjoyable
Call me unusual if having cartoons and drawings of sexual nature, especially of parents with their children nude in a bed touching each other sexually is within normal/acceptable range. I find this extremely disturbing and a red flag. What kind of person is interested in incestuous cartoons/drawings?
16:40 "Vibe" is such a prose at this time here in the 2000's/millennium. Why don't you just discuss things at the base level of Paul Ekman's Work utilizing micro Expressions, body language and vocal intonation. I believe the audience is educated enough nowadays to understand. What the definition of a vibe is to give us more of a basis of psychological evaluation process. Or is the psychological evaluation not include body language, micro expression or vocal intonations? :-)
Josh lied his ass off inThose interviews.
It wasn't the police - there were federal agents who also wanted to arrest Josh! It was the stupid prosecutors. The police and/or agents could have arrested him, but they would have been forced to release him 48 hours later. The prosecutors dropped the ball here.
Dislike this psychologist - he seems almost amateur. I'm from Scandinavia and there is no way a psychologist would talk like that here. Our psychologists are way more academic in their speach, more knowledgeable, more "dry". They would for example never refer to wikipedia as a source of knowledge about narcissism, but big fat textbooks. He defends himself, but honestly I think it was a disgrace to send these kids into contact with Josh given everything he observed and suspected about him. It was one big system fail, yet he claims they were all very caring for these kids.
Utah should have never allowed him to leave.
DISTURBING...WASHINGTON STATE .....DOES NOT CONSIDER DRAWINGS OF .....CHILD INCEST...NOT AGAINST THE LAW!!
I HOPE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO...MISSED HIS EVIL....HAVE NIGHTMARES...THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!
Cain killed Able
True but his named is spelled Abel.