Hey, there is some important context you should know. It suddenly hit me while i was watching this video. In the strawberry panic anime there's a scene where two characters thumb wrestle, and one of them kisses the other to win. The scene with Keke and Sumire must be a referance to that, except in LL characters aren't allowed to kiss.
thank you for the info! I didn't know this I could definietly see it being an intentional reference! I need to sit down and watch/read all of strawberry panic at somepoint lol
I'll admit i've definitely called love live queerbait in the past, although somewhat jokingly. I think with context, "shiptease" definitely describes it better. I think for me, I know realistically these characters aren't going to get together because its an idol franchise for otaku men but oh my god does it get frustrating when some of these characters just act SO. INCREDIBLY GAY TO EACHOTHER. A lot of the time i see duos like NozoEli or ShikiMei or KekeSumire interacting and im screaming "OH MY GOD JUST KISS ALREADY!" even though i know they won't, lol. I don't think its malicious just... aggravating sometimes
While I can agree that the SumiKeke Next Ep preview thing is definitely queerbait, but when talking about the franchise as a whole? Absolutely not. It's quite simple really, I don't believe at all that what makes something queerbait or not is whether or not a queer couple becomes "canon" or not. I just find it to be a ridiculous standard. Especially when we're talking about Japanese media here, where they have a *high-context culture*. Even with straight couples (outside the romance genre), it's relatively rarer to see "explicit confirmation". How much more queer couples? Think about it this way: The Yuri genre very rarely gets new anime and things only started picking up recently. So, do you believe that any instance of an anime (outside the aforementioned genre) having any sort of 'pretty gay' moments or hinting at yuri couples, and ended without "explicit confirmation" or a kiss- are they ALL queerbait? I feel like most people who often talk about anime queerbaiting doesn't really consume that much Yuri or has the bigger picture of the genre and its surrounding culture. This only ever is an issue with the English-speaking side of the community because while we're arguing over if a scene is gay or not, JP yuri fans on the other hand unanimously are just "yeah that's gay, that's yuri". Bringing back the 'high-context culture' bit- Japanese creators never really feel the need to 'explicitly confirm' things (esp things like shipping) because they know that their Japanese fans can easily pick up on what they're trying to say. It's just tiring and ultimately pointless, which is why we use terms like undertones and subtext instead. They are 1000000% much more useful terms when discussing stuff like this. They can way more accurately describe anything about shipping in media without having to touch on shit like creators' intent (which is usually ultimately pointless when we talk about JP media). Going back to Love Live, here's something I can definitively say that is true: as far a lot of the moments (y'all know the ones) shown all over the franchise are concerned, these girls are hella gay for each other. Like, there's no heterosexual explanation for any of this. And I meant that *literally*, So no, they're NOT queerbaiting just because the girls didn't end up dating each other (besides that one)- because they don't need to be! They can still be gay for each other regardless. Love Live clearly have always accepted Yuri as an important part of the franchise and honestly, for me, that should be enough.
Didn't know this was you till I saw your post on twitter hi lol ^^ I disagree on the points about creator intent and think that hetero relationships even in anime/manga are way more likely to get explicitly referenced as romantic compared to gay ones, in all sorts of genres not just romance. I think creator intent is important because ultimately I think that's what defines whether something is queerbaiting or not. Part of why Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are such an iconic queer couple is even though nothing in the series ever SAYS that's what they are directly and dances around it slightly, probably because kids show from the 90's to a degree (though it's all but stated, in a lot of similar ways to other shows like Love Live to a degree), there IS explicit confirmation from multiple sources outside. Thats despite the fact the hetero romances are always brought up directly. An outright “this is canon” is not needed for something to not be bait but I do think it's important to a degree, at least in knowing the intent. Which again I ultimately think defines queerbait since it’s the intent to bait people into think there will be more queer content than there is. “We're going to make this super gay to appeal to that crowd but also never actually say it ever internally or externally to avoid turning off horny guys/idol fans" is, at least to me, somewhat malicious intent. But I also think it's different than "we're not going to SAY it but it's there if you want to see it" which is what I tried to stress and a lot of what I think Love Live does Maybe I could read more or know more about the culture but I have read a lot of yuri including stuff by Love Live's creator. And that's a big part of why I said I don't think in general the series queerbaits since taking into account that and idol culture like, yeah things are gayer than I would have ever expected and I think there's definitely intent for it to be that way (which isn't queerbaiting) "Any sort of pretty gay moment without explicit confirmation is queerbait" is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. I was trying to express that (in agreement with your point) something doesn’t need to be explicitly stated internally or externally “canon” to be there or a valid reading and all that, and I don’t think that’s bait. Which was what I was trying to express with my Rin and Yu/Ayumu examples. I'm sorry if I failed at that.
@@AquaMarina369 Oh, hii! Sorry if it sounded like an incoherent mess, I was kinda out of it last night. So a lot of the things I said may not be directed at your points but rather my distaste with the general discourse about queerbaiting in anime. I don't think I can ever agree with you about creator intent because I generally lean a bit towards 'death of the author' or postmodern interpretation of media. This is especially the case for me with Love Live because, even then, who really is the 'creator' we should look up to anyways? The nebulous 'LLStaff'? Sunrise (aka Hajime Yatate)? Bandai? Lantis? I doubt you can ever get them to comment on the girls' gayness even if you can score an interview with any of them. The closest we ever have to a clear idea of a 'creator' in Love Live, even though she's not very directly involved in the anime, is Sakurako Kimino. And we already KNOW how she writes the girls- as far as she's concerned, these girls are HELLA GAY for each other. You're pretty much spot on with "we're not going to SAY it but it's there if you want to see it". Although, to bring back my point of Japan having a high-context culture, I would rather say "we don't need to SAY it because you KNOW it's there.
It’s ok don’t worry! You have nothing to apologize for! It was coherent and I completely get that ^^ honestly part of this video was wanting to cover this topic to some degree and then not ever wanting to touch on it again so I worried I didn’t get MY thoughts coherently (the earliest version of this script was from over a year ago lol) so don’t at all worry about that lol^^ I respect that with death of the author and mean that genuinely ^^ Ultimately with storytelling and writing in general, what something means to the viewer/reader matters most. I know I’ve seen cases where creators outright say they never consciously intended for LGBT+ themes in stories and such but are grateful to have reached people, most are probably like that ^^ Plus like you said especially with multimedia franchises it’s hard to even know who contributes what. I think for me it’s like ultimately if someone involved was like “yeah we did it to bait them gays into giving us money while we focused on mainly just trying to get horny guys go ‘ooh girls touch tits boner culture lol’” I would probably side eye to say the very least and also absolutely think it’s bait but, it also doesn’t change the interpretations i and others have taken from the work like you said. And yeah agreed on Kimino’s stuff it’s very blatant lol. It’s why I bring up the franchise’s roots (however deep they actually are) in Strawberry Panic. It was so blatantly gay and especially feeling like “Love Live but they don’t cut away” it legitimately caught me off gaurd to a degree I wasn’t expecting it to be that clear cut when I seeked it out lol. That’s why honestly more than anything I just want to know more about what she’s involved in and all that (I think I may have indirectly attributed the superstar manga anthology to her when I don’t even know for 100% sure if that’s the case). Not even in a “make sure it’s not Queerbait!” Creators intention sort of way but more, I’m legitimately curious because her writing style is all over the franchise I just want to know more I’m general lol Rambling and probably not being coherent myself at this point but, I completely get what you were saying and genuinely respect and agree with it. At least for me I do think what makes “Queerbait” is mostly a case of “was the intention to bait” so I do think creator intent does affect that a bit. But I also don’t really think it’s ultimately that big of a deal nessecarily, even in clear cut cases like that next episode preview. Which I more just rolled my eyes and went “yeah not surprised” at rather than getting mad lol. Like I think in love live’s case there will never be a confirmed romantic relationship with the girls because of how idol culture in general is with that sort of stuff. But I also would never think that makes anything bait, nor would I if that was somehow confirmed by someone in production. Doesn’t change the stories and interactions themselves, and Doesn’t change how people view/interpret/take meaning from the story and that’s ultimately what matters ^^ Hope, any of that made sense lol ^^; Like I said this is probably the most I’ve struggled with a video in terms of just trying to make my thoughts coherent and clear enough to present well and make sense lol
Honestly i still think Niji really went hard on that aspect, wouldn't bother me if it was handled properly. But after rhe famous Ayumu Yuu scene i never feel the situation gets address properly or even given any sort of proper satisfying conclusion. Which is a general issue i have with Niji tbf.
Do you know about the girls about Hasunosora on LL!? The story is written directly by a Yuri author, so they stopped Queerbaiting in the last project and go full Yuri, because Y E S.
Love Live IS already written by a Yuri author though. A lot of the Love Live LN and manga, which she directly has hands on, are pretty much what you could say 'went full Yuri'. She literally had Rin propose to Hanayo which ended with a kiss (all the almost kisses especially between Honoka and Umi aside).
okay on whatever ppl says (some points i disagree sorry) but at the end of the day, love live! was made for otaku men sad that english fans didn't know how the idol business works in Japan or i mean they didn't seen the main audience in every live concerts
no, we know that the main audience for idol media is otaku men. doesn't mean we can't get frustrated at how women and queerness are treated in those media as a result of "dumbing it down" for otaku men.
Hey, there is some important context you should know. It suddenly hit me while i was watching this video. In the strawberry panic anime there's a scene where two characters thumb wrestle, and one of them kisses the other to win. The scene with Keke and Sumire must be a referance to that, except in LL characters aren't allowed to kiss.
thank you for the info! I didn't know this I could definietly see it being an intentional reference! I need to sit down and watch/read all of strawberry panic at somepoint lol
No because I really did think they were gonna kiss when episode 4 came out 😭
I think -bait has little meaning when it comes to media. But hey props to that guy on TH-cam for finishing the sumire keke scene 😂
Oh my god I forgot that vid thank you for reminding me of it lol : p
I'll admit i've definitely called love live queerbait in the past, although somewhat jokingly. I think with context, "shiptease" definitely describes it better.
I think for me, I know realistically these characters aren't going to get together because its an idol franchise for otaku men but oh my god does it get frustrating when some of these characters just act SO. INCREDIBLY GAY TO EACHOTHER. A lot of the time i see duos like NozoEli or ShikiMei or KekeSumire interacting and im screaming "OH MY GOD JUST KISS ALREADY!" even though i know they won't, lol.
I don't think its malicious just... aggravating sometimes
While I can agree that the SumiKeke Next Ep preview thing is definitely queerbait, but when talking about the franchise as a whole? Absolutely not.
It's quite simple really, I don't believe at all that what makes something queerbait or not is whether or not a queer couple becomes "canon" or not. I just find it to be a ridiculous standard. Especially when we're talking about Japanese media here, where they have a *high-context culture*. Even with straight couples (outside the romance genre), it's relatively rarer to see "explicit confirmation". How much more queer couples?
Think about it this way: The Yuri genre very rarely gets new anime and things only started picking up recently. So, do you believe that any instance of an anime (outside the aforementioned genre) having any sort of 'pretty gay' moments or hinting at yuri couples, and ended without "explicit confirmation" or a kiss- are they ALL queerbait?
I feel like most people who often talk about anime queerbaiting doesn't really consume that much Yuri or has the bigger picture of the genre and its surrounding culture. This only ever is an issue with the English-speaking side of the community because while we're arguing over if a scene is gay or not, JP yuri fans on the other hand unanimously are just "yeah that's gay, that's yuri". Bringing back the 'high-context culture' bit- Japanese creators never really feel the need to 'explicitly confirm' things (esp things like shipping) because they know that their Japanese fans can easily pick up on what they're trying to say.
It's just tiring and ultimately pointless, which is why we use terms like undertones and subtext instead. They are 1000000% much more useful terms when discussing stuff like this. They can way more accurately describe anything about shipping in media without having to touch on shit like creators' intent (which is usually ultimately pointless when we talk about JP media).
Going back to Love Live, here's something I can definitively say that is true: as far a lot of the moments (y'all know the ones) shown all over the franchise are concerned, these girls are hella gay for each other. Like, there's no heterosexual explanation for any of this. And I meant that *literally*,
So no, they're NOT queerbaiting just because the girls didn't end up dating each other (besides that one)- because they don't need to be! They can still be gay for each other regardless. Love Live clearly have always accepted Yuri as an important part of the franchise and honestly, for me, that should be enough.
Didn't know this was you till I saw your post on twitter hi lol ^^
I disagree on the points about creator intent and think that hetero relationships even in anime/manga are way more likely to get explicitly referenced as romantic compared to gay ones, in all sorts of genres not just romance.
I think creator intent is important because ultimately I think that's what defines whether something is queerbaiting or not. Part of why Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are such an iconic queer couple is even though nothing in the series ever SAYS that's what they are directly and dances around it slightly, probably because kids show from the 90's to a degree (though it's all but stated, in a lot of similar ways to other shows like Love Live to a degree), there IS explicit confirmation from multiple sources outside. Thats despite the fact the hetero romances are always brought up directly.
An outright “this is canon” is not needed for something to not be bait but I do think it's important to a degree, at least in knowing the intent. Which again I ultimately think defines queerbait since it’s the intent to bait people into think there will be more queer content than there is. “We're going to make this super gay to appeal to that crowd but also never actually say it ever internally or externally to avoid turning off horny guys/idol fans" is, at least to me, somewhat malicious intent. But I also think it's different than "we're not going to SAY it but it's there if you want to see it" which is what I tried to stress and a lot of what I think Love Live does
Maybe I could read more or know more about the culture but I have read a lot of yuri including stuff by Love Live's creator. And that's a big part of why I said I don't think in general the series queerbaits since taking into account that and idol culture like, yeah things are gayer than I would have ever expected and I think there's definitely intent for it to be that way (which isn't queerbaiting)
"Any sort of pretty gay moment without explicit confirmation is queerbait" is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. I was trying to express that (in agreement with your point) something doesn’t need to be explicitly stated internally or externally “canon” to be there or a valid reading and all that, and I don’t think that’s bait. Which was what I was trying to express with my Rin and Yu/Ayumu examples. I'm sorry if I failed at that.
@@AquaMarina369 Oh, hii! Sorry if it sounded like an incoherent mess, I was kinda out of it last night. So a lot of the things I said may not be directed at your points but rather my distaste with the general discourse about queerbaiting in anime.
I don't think I can ever agree with you about creator intent because I generally lean a bit towards 'death of the author' or postmodern interpretation of media. This is especially the case for me with Love Live because, even then, who really is the 'creator' we should look up to anyways? The nebulous 'LLStaff'? Sunrise (aka Hajime Yatate)? Bandai? Lantis? I doubt you can ever get them to comment on the girls' gayness even if you can score an interview with any of them.
The closest we ever have to a clear idea of a 'creator' in Love Live, even though she's not very directly involved in the anime, is Sakurako Kimino. And we already KNOW how she writes the girls- as far as she's concerned, these girls are HELLA GAY for each other.
You're pretty much spot on with "we're not going to SAY it but it's there if you want to see it". Although, to bring back my point of Japan having a high-context culture, I would rather say "we don't need to SAY it because you KNOW it's there.
It’s ok don’t worry! You have nothing to apologize for! It was coherent and I completely get that ^^ honestly part of this video was wanting to cover this topic to some degree and then not ever wanting to touch on it again so I worried I didn’t get MY thoughts coherently (the earliest version of this script was from over a year ago lol) so don’t at all worry about that lol^^
I respect that with death of the author and mean that genuinely ^^ Ultimately with storytelling and writing in general, what something means to the viewer/reader matters most. I know I’ve seen cases where creators outright say they never consciously intended for LGBT+ themes in stories and such but are grateful to have reached people, most are probably like that ^^ Plus like you said especially with multimedia franchises it’s hard to even know who contributes what.
I think for me it’s like ultimately if someone involved was like “yeah we did it to bait them gays into giving us money while we focused on mainly just trying to get horny guys go ‘ooh girls touch tits boner culture lol’” I would probably side eye to say the very least and also absolutely think it’s bait but, it also doesn’t change the interpretations i and others have taken from the work like you said.
And yeah agreed on Kimino’s stuff it’s very blatant lol. It’s why I bring up the franchise’s roots (however deep they actually are) in Strawberry Panic. It was so blatantly gay and especially feeling like “Love Live but they don’t cut away” it legitimately caught me off gaurd to a degree I wasn’t expecting it to be that clear cut when I seeked it out lol. That’s why honestly more than anything I just want to know more about what she’s involved in and all that (I think I may have indirectly attributed the superstar manga anthology to her when I don’t even know for 100% sure if that’s the case). Not even in a “make sure it’s not Queerbait!” Creators intention sort of way but more, I’m legitimately curious because her writing style is all over the franchise I just want to know more I’m general lol
Rambling and probably not being coherent myself at this point but, I completely get what you were saying and genuinely respect and agree with it.
At least for me I do think what makes “Queerbait” is mostly a case of “was the intention to bait” so I do think creator intent does affect that a bit. But I also don’t really think it’s ultimately that big of a deal nessecarily, even in clear cut cases like that next episode preview. Which I more just rolled my eyes and went “yeah not surprised” at rather than getting mad lol. Like I think in love live’s case there will never be a confirmed romantic relationship with the girls because of how idol culture in general is with that sort of stuff. But I also would never think that makes anything bait, nor would I if that was somehow confirmed by someone in production. Doesn’t change the stories and interactions themselves, and Doesn’t change how people view/interpret/take meaning from the story and that’s ultimately what matters ^^
Hope, any of that made sense lol ^^; Like I said this is probably the most I’ve struggled with a video in terms of just trying to make my thoughts coherent and clear enough to present well and make sense lol
This is, indeed a very difficult but also variable topic, it makes for a good conversation topic, at least.
Honestly i still think Niji really went hard on that aspect, wouldn't bother me if it was handled properly. But after rhe famous Ayumu Yuu scene i never feel the situation gets address properly or even given any sort of proper satisfying conclusion. Which is a general issue i have with Niji tbf.
Do you know about the girls about Hasunosora on LL!? The story is written directly by a Yuri author, so they stopped Queerbaiting in the last project and go full Yuri, because Y E S.
I haven't kept up with much but I did hear about that, I need to check it out lol^^
Love Live IS already written by a Yuri author though. A lot of the Love Live LN and manga, which she directly has hands on, are pretty much what you could say 'went full Yuri'. She literally had Rin propose to Hanayo which ended with a kiss (all the almost kisses especially between Honoka and Umi aside).
okay on whatever ppl says (some points i disagree sorry) but at the end of the day, love live! was made for otaku men
sad that english fans didn't know how the idol business works in Japan or i mean they didn't seen the main audience in every live concerts
no, we know that the main audience for idol media is otaku men. doesn't mean we can't get frustrated at how women and queerness are treated in those media as a result of "dumbing it down" for otaku men.
Some girls are a maybe, some others are a yes. Garasu no Hanazono is a super mega yes but also just bait because NozoEli is not really "canon"
Yoshiko's popularity killed ChikaRiko like it killed RubyMaru.
Ur thumbnail is so clixkbating