I found your video interesting, but do want to correct some errors. The plaque describing the Iroquois engine says that it flew attached to Canada's ONLY B-47 bomber. This is incorrect! Canada never had a B-47 bomber, ever! The one that it flew on was a bomber loaned to the Canadian Government by the United States Government, specifically the USAF and more specifically Strategic Air Comand, (SAC), it was the very newest bomber in the US inventory at the time. They attached the engine to the rear righthand side of the fuselage. They had to attach it there because it was too big to sling under the fuselage, and of course, would have burned off the tail if it were attached on the top. So they took off using the 6 engines that the bomber normally used. Once airborne, they started the Iroquois engine and idled their own engines. However, the mighty Iroquois generated so much thrust, that the big bomber was "crabbing" through the sky! To counteract this, they ran the engines on the left wing. That said, when the aircraft was returned to the USAF, the fuselage was so badly bent, that the plane was scrapped! Two other details about this event, it was the ONLY time a frontline bomber was ever lent to another country, AND also the only time a frontline bomber was EVER flown by a non-american crew. I hope that this helps to set the record straight. Oh also, they now have found 4 Iroquois engine, albeit one of them was found in the UK. BUT that particular engine was still in its original packing grease! It was loaned to the British MOD for study and after 50 years, it was discovered by a Canadian museum worker, he directed them to return it to Canada. At first, the MOD refused to saying that they had yet to study it!!! He replied that if after 50 years they had not gotten around to looking at it, They likely never would! So thus it was returned to Canada. Thanks for your video, I did enjoy it. :D
Nowhere can I find hard evidence that the loaned TB-47 was ever 'bent' during flight testing - a bent aircraft (suggesting an airframe strained beyond design specs) would never be used for such a purpose (especially for 31hrs of flight testing), as it would inherently produce adverse handling characteristics as well as present the potential for inflight airframe failure. It did, however, require the addition of roughly 2000lbs of test equipment, 8000lbs of ballast to the nose, as well as reconfiguring the navigator's station to that of a flight engineer's station. In order to handle the additional weight of the Iroquois engine/pod on the aft fuselage and ballast in the nose, considerable strengthening of the fuselage was carried out by means of additional longerons and bulkheads, as well as double-skinning much of the rear fuselage. When tested, one of the left engines was kept running at full power to maintain thrust symmetry, and another kept running to produce hydraulic/electrical services. The other 4 engines would be progressively shut down as the Iroquois' power was increased (Arrowheads p. 131). On one occasion, failure of a compressor blade resulted in damage to both the Iroquois and the B-47 - this was the only time the airborne Iroquois was pushed to full military power (the test Iroquois was limited to 16,000lbs thrust). After the Iroquois program was cancelled, Boeing technicians came to Malton to aid with the removal of the Iroquois pod & prep the jet for its return to the USA. The Stratojet was deemed surplus and chopped up for scrap at Davis Monthan AFB.
The very newest bomber in the US inventory at the time was the B52. The supersonic B58 Hustler was already built and being tested at the time. The F4 Phantom, a Mach 2.2 fighter that was also capable of carrying lots of bombs, conducting ISR, and close air support was was released two months after the Arrow was cancelled. Nobody needed a high speed interceptor.
I worked at cardington uk were the engine was and spent many hrs on it. its was traded for a fusalarge and some other bits. and that was not the only arrow bits we had. there have always been rumors here that it flew over here to be stored
Bummed out when I remember the Arrow, the Iroquois power-plants in parricular. I study the mechanics of thrust provided by jet engine systems and facsinated by the developers of the Iroquios abilities for the times. The prototype Iroquois as compared to P & W's best effort at the time, says it all for me. Thanks for sharing this.🙏🇺🇸👍
From what I understand, the thrust numbers they got, were only what they were capable of testing to. That the engine had far more potential. Possible breaking 30k thrust with reheat.
Once again.... "The Iroquois was in the 30,000lb thrust range" Syd Britton Orenda Engines. (1998) The Iroquois "was 29,500lbs of thrust, we tested it" Jim Mcleod, NRC propulsion Lab, (1998)
True. Also, the J-75 engine was used in the Vought 'Super' Crusader that competed with the F-4 Phantom as the replacement for the Navy's Vought F-8 Crusader. This J-75 produced close to 30,000 lbs. thrust and could push the super Crusader to over Mach 3. The only reason the program never exceeded Mach 3 was that the windscreen was beginning to turn opaque due to the heat generated at around Mach 2.8. The Navy chose the Phantom because they wanted a two-engine aircraft for redundant-system combat survivability and a second crew member to handle the increasingly complicated new missile 'acquisition and lockup' technology deemed to be 'overload' for one pilot. BTW, the Super Crusader outperformed the Phantom in "Every" category. Regards, ^v^
More like 26,000lbs as tested, which was demonstrated in 1958-59: 19,350lbs dry/25,600lbs wet - still extremely impressive numbers. Until the compressor blade and shaft/drum 'wobbling' could be improved, pre-production PS.13's destined for the first Mk 2 aircraft (206) were limited to about 20,000lbs wet thrust with maximum operating rpm reduced by ~2% to prevent vibration/failure (as what occurred on the B-47 test aircraft.). This is explained and verified in 'Shutting Down the National Dream' (Stewart), 'Cold War Tech War' (Whitcomb) and 'Storms of Controversy' (Campagna). One Orenda Engineer suggested testing stateside gleaned numbers of 25,000 dry/27,000lbs wet respectively, but that should be considered purely anecdotal. The ultimate goal for Orenda was to have the PS.13 Mk 2 produce 30,000lbs thrust in afterburner - whether or not it actually did during testing remains highly speculative.
Right. I wondered why this was not mentioned. I believe that the second engine referred to here is in ths Canadian Aviation and Space Museum (CASM) in Ottawa.
Enjoyed the video. As usual, the US interfering in what they don't have, but want. They interfered with the Avro Arrow, and the British TSR2. Both aircraft partly got cancelled so both country's would buy American.
Ever heard of the Pratt and Whitney J-58? It powered the SR-71, A12, and MD21. It was in roughly the same size and weight class as the Iroquois, except it out out 32,000lbs thrust, and carried the SR-71 past Mach 3, and would do so for sustained periods.
As a Canadian I am proud of what we had built the avero arrow was pride of us as a small nation it was only the stupid politicians who destroyed the greatest aero space industry in the world at that time what a lost
I don't believe the USA would have been happy with a aircraft that could possibly go mock 3 at that time and sell it all over the world. Plus the canadians i believe invented the delta wing
@@davidouellette6833 Officially, the Avro Arrow achieved Mach 1.98. The Arrow wing was based on a modified NACA 0003 airfoil. The notch in the wing was a German concept.
The mythology surrounding the Avro Arrow needs to stop. It was NOT decades ahead of anything. Compare it to the F-106 which was developed around the same time, the F-106 out performed the Arrow in almost all categories.
AC183 Posts: 1496 Joined: 18 years ago #6 16 years ago It's hard to say how good an airplane was considering it was destroyed before going into service (what a crime!), but here's a few facts: -the highest speed reached during the test program was around Mach1.96 (or was it 1.98 - I'd have to check), however that was at 75% throttle, still climbing and accelerating, and using the J75 engines (test aircraft, the Iroquois for production was about 25% more powerful, and much lighter). This was at a time that the world air speed record was at roughly 2.05 (F104). There were proposed developments for Mach3+!!!!!!!! -the use of titanium in the engines (and to a limited extent I believe also on the airframe) was about the first such use in aerospace applications -no weapons had been fitted, as it was still in development, but the aircraft was basically an interceptor, however medium bomber, and reconaissance variants were also being developed. There are many tragedies involved with the Arrow. -Although Canada, as a limited market, has a hard time justifying producing military aircraft, the program was scrapped after it was very advanced, so all that R&D investment was lost, and we ended up paying for it all again when US aircraft were bought. -The C.102 Jetliner project was also a casualty of all this, as the Canadian government had ordered Avro that all it's efforts had to go into defence projects, and so orders "didn't materialize" (in other words, orders were turned away, but politically that wasn't admitted), and Canada lost it's lead in the commercial jet arena. -all aircraft, drawings, test data, and tooling was ordered destroyed. Some fragments were smuggled out by employees, but most of this great piece of our heritage was lost. -Probably the greatest loss of all: many skilled people were lost from Canada. Many went to the US or Britain to work on various project, many of them went to the Apollo space program. Jim Chamberlain, the chief aerodynamicists, went on to Apollo as one of the chief engineers or managers (if you want his exact title, I'll have to go upstairs and get out my books). Jim Floyd was significant in the Concorde program. The Iroquois engines was rumoured to have been used as a model for the design of the Olympus engines for Concorde. There were many other people and technologies that were lost to other companies when the project was cancelled, and only now is the Canadian aerospace industry recovering. I could go on with this stuff, but I think that's enough for now.
Actually Canadian Aircraft Industry has similar problem with Indonesian Aerospace[IAe] or PT Dirgantara Indonesia fomerly known as IPTN [Nusantara Aircraft Industry] that time and check out who's Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie /B.J. Habibie .
You are joking. The PS-13 Iroquois was not a myth. The engin out performed most of what was available at the time. It gave in 1950's what the PW F100 offered to the F-15 in the 80's in power. So the Iroquois could have offered the same power ration to an F-15 or an F-16. Now just imagin if Orenda was still around today and It would have been amazing to see what the evolution of the Iroquois engin would be today. It the same with SpaceX, no one beleived them that they could land back the booster part of a rocket. They did it and look at the Falcon Heavy, That's one powerful launch system. Now this proves that Avro and Orenda was one amazing combination that would have place teh Canadian Aerospace industry in front of the pack.
The Avro that built the Vulcan had nothing to do with the Avro that built the Arrow. Two unrelated companies building two completely unrelated aircraft. The only thing in common was the corporate name.
No. It was because of a naïve newly elected prime ministrer that believed the US President on a lie. A PM that came from farm land in the canadian west and he knew nothing about the aerospace tech. of the time. He basicaly believed the US whe he was told that missiles was the way of the future, when it was not. And look at the mess we have today.
@@lepompier132 He knew enough to understand that a plane that cost five times what competing planes cost couldn't be justified just in the name of national pride.
@@DesScorp wrong the historical facts are there were sales for the plane that would have far exceeded the cost and it is documented, there was corruption at the highest level of government and that is why the planes and all evidence was destroyed in such a manner that no one could ever dispute the governments claims at that time.
@@lepompier132 - Kill the Arrow or face trade problems. It works every time. It's about the jobs. Kill it or we get the tariffs going. Lumber, Beef. leverage!
Not too sure if it's still available, but there was a company that rebuilt one of these special engines, that was prepared to sell it for $1.2 million dollars.
I'm pretty certain it's still in Fort Saint John. I'm hoping my childhood friend, Big Al, who has worked for S&S Turbines for years will be available this summer to open the SeaCan so I can see it and touch it.
I have been there and seen it, plus allowed to touch it! My son in law works at the Fort St John airport an his boss knows the guys at the company that has the engine. He arranged for me to see it last summer (2019). It was great time for me because I used to watch the test flights of the Arrow when I was a kid. They flew over our house in Mississauga .
Tall Guy , that is his intention. From what I understand he is pretty close. Just needs a couple of more parts, and if he can’t find them they will make them.
I think everybody has to take a time out on the Arrow to look at what happened AFTER it was cancelled. All budgets were systematically cut year after year for all arms of the forces.The army shrunk into almost nothing, so much so we RENTED tanks from the Germans and it was run by more bosses than troops. Our Navy was allowed to die on the vine with a half hearted attempt to build outdated frigates that were not maintained to keep them operational. We bought submarines and spent literally a billion dollars on them to have them permanently tied to the docks. The Argus, sabres and number of fighters drastically reduced in number. Right now we have less that 65 F-18 that are operational. We call ourselves a Northern nation and we dont even have icebreakers that can operate reliably in the North. All of them are 40 years old and almost derelict. Can you image what the forces would have been if we did build it. We would built 50 and mothball 45 of them so we could "go to war in the Middle East with 5 of them.
It was the right wing Conservatives that cancelled the Arrow. Every time the cons come to power they cancel programs that take years to recover from. The last bunch of con bandits cancelled the payroll system and the new one "Phoenix" is a total mess Employees havenot been paid, and/or some are over paid. This has been going on since 2015. All thanks to the Harper fools. Shutting down the arrow progran distroyed the Canadian Avation/Space industry. So mr gomgtow do not talk shit about Socialist countries. You are an ignorant fool.
Go study the history of Canada's governments between 1957 and 2023 factoring in the roles Canada's military was used in. We have far too few people for the area of our land mass. Fortunately, the sale of our natural resources has offset that to some extent.
One exists in norther BC canada in private hands. And is nearly complete. Though it is doubtful it will ever run as he is still missing some key parts.
I've said it before and I'll continue to. The Avro Arrow is a beauty. She is so far superior to other design from 50s/60s, heck even 70s interceptor designs world wide the her being binned was a crime. A case of politics at its worst. If Arrow were built today with today's tech updates she'd be absolutely untouchable. (although 26,000 w/AB per engine is pretty damn respectable even now) I imagine suitable fans might be cobbled together to help the range and fuel consumption. We Yanks should have kept out noses out of your business. Canucks had it right the first time.
What sucks is we still have some of the engines a few pieces of the aircraft , a full-scale model , some technical plans and blueprints still nobody will build one with today's technology we never know what could be possible
@Fidel > That is not true. A handful went to NASA, what I can find it was 32 engineers. There were over 400,000 people who worked on the Apollo missions. Get your facts straight.
This engine was a reverse engineered Rolls Royce RB106 which was one of the two preferred engines for the Arrow project. The other was the J67 from Curtis Wright that was a licence built Bristol Olympus from the Vulcan Bomber also used with reheat in the TSR-2 and later Concorde. The reason this engine was built was because RR cancelled the RB106 as a result of the disastrous UK White Paper of 1957 (that argued for missiles rather than aircraft as Canada did) and GE cancelled the J67. Not sure why the actual Olympus was not used as a replacement as the airframes were built for the CW J67 version already. All in all its a terrible story of politicians (UK and Canadian) destroying aircraft, technology and engines that were years ahead of anything available anywhere else including America in 1957 and then again in the UK in 1965. Here in the UK we lost TSR-2, a supersonic Harrier P1154, a short take off transport HS681 and we did so to buy the F-111! God save us! All world leaders. And to rub salt into the wounds Labour also cancelled the new CVA-01 63,000 ton aircraft carrier that was again ground breaking in its design.
........it's being argued that aircraft carriers have had their day. They are too lucrative as a target . It'll be interesting to see what counter measures are developed against the latest carrier killer missiles. But we all know a submarine can do it.
@UCh57rwk3ySElDpzgCDLh9KA @AgentJayZ I have seen the great work you do. For the Nation, it would be GREAT to get an operational Arrow Orenda Iroquois Engine! I am sure Ottawa would like to see it run again also!
So like apparently some engineers that worked on the project refused to shut down the project and hid away the parts instead of scrapping it so we could possibly get the arrow to fly again if engineers would be willing
It is very neat, I have seen this display at the museum. It was a enormous loss for Canada when the Diefenbaker government cancelled the Arrow program. Diefenbaker and his team were strategic light weights regarding defence, and the affects this had on the future of aerospace development in Canada and what this did to the economy. Years later in 1961 the American President Eisenhower warned the American people about the industrial military complex. Well this "complex" worked very well behind the scenes with Diefenbaker to destroy an advanced industry here in Canada, and Diefenbaker and his boys wiped it out in the stroke of the pen. Now, we continue to have a debate on the merits of the F-35 to replace the ageing CF-18. I am not convinced that the F-35 is suitable air-frame nor is it cost effective for our needs. This plane will not fit in its main role for the defence of Canadian airspace and NA. It has limited range and its stealth capabilities is questionable. It would be cheaper to buy new F-15's (keep that production line going), outfit the avionics with up to date hardware and software, equip it with sturdy landing gears. Then in tandem, work to develop our own fighter plane for roll-out in 10 years time.
Diefenbaker and his team were strategic light weights in almost every area, so no surprise he bent over & took it from the Americans. Great analysis of the F-35 and the F-15 as an option, unfortunately Boeing's heavy handed tactics against Bombardier probably rule out that & the Super Hornet as options. I believe we should also consider the Gripen- great plane & can't hurt to strengthen our friendship w/ our European allies given the recent tend in foreign policy by our former BFF south of us...
It is a shame that that AVRO ARROW was killed of we had the same thing happen with the TSR 2. I think it was the United States that behind doors wanted the to be cancel. With the Arrow you wold have a plane that can fly as high as a U-2 and might have been able to intercept a SR-71. The TSR 2 was cancel so it did not complete against the F-111.
@Ed Klein > You take the prize for the dumbest you tube statement of the day. The Avro Arrow is over 60 years old. There doesn't exist a flyable aircraft.
......perhaps the f35 is evolved from the arrow anyway. For one thing the skilled engineers and scientists from avro moved to the USA to work on the American projects.
Yes Canadian but i believe the brits that lived in this country were involved and they are smart people i'm French and Scottish but believe in giving credit where it's do.
No need to RE it, they still have the plans for it. A set was sent to the Canadian Research Council, just like a set of blueprints were for the Arrow itself. Those were missed when it came time to destroy everything, whether on purpose or not is unknown.
can we force the canadian gov to give us those plane our tax dollar when into this and we never saw the pontential or lack of potential or are we bending over the usa wisher once more time i demand that we have them rebuild to see what these could really do andre calgary alberta
I found your video interesting, but do want to correct some errors. The plaque describing the Iroquois engine says that it flew attached to Canada's ONLY B-47 bomber. This is incorrect! Canada never had a B-47 bomber, ever! The one that it flew on was a bomber loaned to the Canadian Government by the United States Government, specifically the USAF and more specifically Strategic Air Comand, (SAC), it was the very newest bomber in the US inventory at the time. They attached the engine to the rear righthand side of the fuselage. They had to attach it there because it was too big to sling under the fuselage, and of course, would have burned off the tail if it were attached on the top. So they took off using the 6 engines that the bomber normally used. Once airborne, they started the Iroquois engine and idled their own engines. However, the mighty Iroquois generated so much thrust, that the big bomber was "crabbing" through the sky! To counteract this, they ran the engines on the left wing. That said, when the aircraft was returned to the USAF, the fuselage was so badly bent, that the plane was scrapped! Two other details about this event, it was the ONLY time a frontline bomber was ever lent to another country, AND also the only time a frontline bomber was EVER flown by a non-american crew. I hope that this helps to set the record straight. Oh also, they now have found 4 Iroquois engine, albeit one of them was found in the UK. BUT that particular engine was still in its original packing grease! It was loaned to the British MOD for study and after 50 years, it was discovered by a Canadian museum worker, he directed them to return it to Canada. At first, the MOD refused to saying that they had yet to study it!!! He replied that if after 50 years they had not gotten around to looking at it, They likely never would! So thus it was returned to Canada. Thanks for your video, I did enjoy it. :D
Nowhere can I find hard evidence that the loaned TB-47 was ever 'bent' during flight testing - a bent aircraft (suggesting an airframe strained beyond design specs) would never be used for such a purpose (especially for 31hrs of flight testing), as it would inherently produce adverse handling characteristics as well as present the potential for inflight airframe failure. It did, however, require the addition of roughly 2000lbs of test equipment, 8000lbs of ballast to the nose, as well as reconfiguring the navigator's station to that of a flight engineer's station. In order to handle the additional weight of the Iroquois engine/pod on the aft fuselage and ballast in the nose, considerable strengthening of the fuselage was carried out by means of additional longerons and bulkheads, as well as double-skinning much of the rear fuselage. When tested, one of the left engines was kept running at full power to maintain thrust symmetry, and another kept running to produce hydraulic/electrical services. The other 4 engines would be progressively shut down as the Iroquois' power was increased (Arrowheads p. 131). On one occasion, failure of a compressor blade resulted in damage to both the Iroquois and the B-47 - this was the only time the airborne Iroquois was pushed to full military power (the test Iroquois was limited to 16,000lbs thrust). After the Iroquois program was cancelled, Boeing technicians came to Malton to aid with the removal of the Iroquois pod & prep the jet for its return to the USA. The Stratojet was deemed surplus and chopped up for scrap at Davis Monthan AFB.
The very newest bomber in the US inventory at the time was the B52. The supersonic B58 Hustler was already built and being tested at the time. The F4 Phantom, a Mach 2.2 fighter that was also capable of carrying lots of bombs, conducting ISR, and close air support was was released two months after the Arrow was cancelled. Nobody needed a high speed interceptor.
I worked at cardington uk were the engine was and spent many hrs on it. its was traded for a fusalarge and some other bits. and that was not the only arrow bits we had. there have always been rumors here that it flew over here to be stored
@@danieleickstedt8702 And lets not forget the F-106 .
A very entertaining story, too bad most of it is false. But we can only dream of what may have been.
Bummed out when I remember the Arrow, the Iroquois power-plants in parricular. I study the mechanics of thrust provided by jet engine systems and facsinated by the developers of the Iroquios abilities for the times. The prototype Iroquois as compared to P & W's best effort at the time, says it all for me. Thanks for sharing this.🙏🇺🇸👍
From what I understand, the thrust numbers they got, were only what they were capable of testing to. That the engine had far more potential. Possible breaking 30k thrust with reheat.
Once again.... "The Iroquois was in the 30,000lb thrust range" Syd Britton Orenda Engines. (1998) The Iroquois "was 29,500lbs of thrust, we tested it" Jim Mcleod, NRC propulsion Lab, (1998)
True. Also, the J-75 engine was used in the Vought 'Super' Crusader that competed with the F-4 Phantom as the replacement for the Navy's Vought F-8 Crusader. This J-75 produced close to 30,000 lbs. thrust and could push the super Crusader to over Mach 3. The only reason the program never exceeded Mach 3 was that the windscreen was beginning to turn opaque due to the heat generated at around Mach 2.8. The Navy chose the Phantom because they wanted a two-engine aircraft for redundant-system combat survivability and a second crew member to handle the increasingly complicated new missile 'acquisition and lockup' technology deemed to be 'overload' for one pilot. BTW, the Super Crusader outperformed the Phantom in "Every" category. Regards, ^v^
More like 26,000lbs as tested, which was demonstrated in 1958-59: 19,350lbs dry/25,600lbs wet - still extremely impressive numbers. Until the compressor blade and shaft/drum 'wobbling' could be improved, pre-production PS.13's destined for the first Mk 2 aircraft (206) were limited to about 20,000lbs wet thrust with maximum operating rpm reduced by ~2% to prevent vibration/failure (as what occurred on the B-47 test aircraft.). This is explained and verified in 'Shutting Down the National Dream' (Stewart), 'Cold War Tech War' (Whitcomb) and 'Storms of Controversy' (Campagna). One Orenda Engineer suggested testing stateside gleaned numbers of 25,000 dry/27,000lbs wet respectively, but that should be considered purely anecdotal. The ultimate goal for Orenda was to have the PS.13 Mk 2 produce 30,000lbs thrust in afterburner - whether or not it actually did during testing remains highly speculative.
There are more than two. S&S Turbines has one of them.
Right. I wondered why this was not mentioned. I believe that the second engine referred to here is in ths Canadian Aviation and Space Museum (CASM) in Ottawa.
I am always sad to see the Avro arrow NOT in my life today
You and me both.
Robin Sipe in Vancouver currently has two operating Orenda engines from the Avro Arrow project!
No. We have one, and it has not been assembled in to running condition yet.
@@AgentJayZ have they gotten any closer?
The legacy of the Federal Conservatives, the death of Canada's aviation industry. I will NEVER forgive them for that.
Now I need to hear that baby ROAR
Amazing things were indeed achieved with that plane. Black Friday should have never happened. Such a sad day for Canada.
If canada never stopped programs like the CF105, it could be on the top three of most powerfull air force
@@liamleclair1663 👍👍👍
Enjoyed the video. As usual, the US interfering in what they don't have, but want. They interfered with the Avro Arrow, and the British TSR2. Both aircraft partly got cancelled so both country's would buy American.
Ever heard of the Pratt and Whitney J-58? It powered the SR-71, A12, and MD21. It was in roughly the same size and weight class as the Iroquois, except it out out 32,000lbs thrust, and carried the SR-71 past Mach 3, and would do so for sustained periods.
Hybrid engine, it switched to a ram jet to exceed mach 3.
As a Canadian I am proud of what we had built the avero arrow was pride of us as a small nation it was only the stupid politicians who destroyed the greatest aero space industry in the world at that time what a lost
I don't believe the USA would have been happy with a aircraft that could possibly go mock 3 at that time and sell it all over the world. Plus the canadians i believe invented the delta wing
@@davidouellette6833
Officially, the Avro Arrow achieved Mach 1.98. The Arrow wing was based on a modified NACA 0003 airfoil. The notch in the wing was a German concept.
There were no prototypes. The Arrow were built to be commissioned.
Arrow and tr2 make me cry
The Arrow was decades ahead of all others and the cancellation and SENSELESS destruction of these planes was a criminal offence!
The mythology surrounding the Avro Arrow needs to stop. It was NOT decades ahead of anything. Compare it to the F-106 which was developed around the same time, the F-106 out performed the Arrow in almost all categories.
So why didn't the Canadian Gov't get the F-106?
AC183
Posts: 1496
Joined: 18 years ago
#6
16 years ago
It's hard to say how good an airplane was considering it was destroyed before going into service (what a crime!), but here's a few facts:
-the highest speed reached during the test program was around Mach1.96 (or was it 1.98 - I'd have to check), however that was at 75% throttle, still climbing and accelerating, and using the J75 engines (test aircraft, the Iroquois for production was about 25% more powerful, and much lighter). This was at a time that the world air speed record was at roughly 2.05 (F104). There were proposed developments for Mach3+!!!!!!!!
-the use of titanium in the engines (and to a limited extent I believe also on the airframe) was about the first such use in aerospace applications
-no weapons had been fitted, as it was still in development, but the aircraft was basically an interceptor, however medium bomber, and reconaissance variants were also being developed.
There are many tragedies involved with the Arrow.
-Although Canada, as a limited market, has a hard time justifying producing military aircraft, the program was scrapped after it was very advanced, so all that R&D investment was lost, and we ended up paying for it all again when US aircraft were bought.
-The C.102 Jetliner project was also a casualty of all this, as the Canadian government had ordered Avro that all it's efforts had to go into defence projects, and so orders "didn't materialize" (in other words, orders were turned away, but politically that wasn't admitted), and Canada lost it's lead in the commercial jet arena.
-all aircraft, drawings, test data, and tooling was ordered destroyed. Some fragments were smuggled out by employees, but most of this great piece of our heritage was lost.
-Probably the greatest loss of all: many skilled people were lost from Canada. Many went to the US or Britain to work on various project, many of them went to the Apollo space program. Jim Chamberlain, the chief aerodynamicists, went on to Apollo as one of the chief engineers or managers (if you want his exact title, I'll have to go upstairs and get out my books). Jim Floyd was significant in the Concorde program. The Iroquois engines was rumoured to have been used as a model for the design of the Olympus engines for Concorde. There were many other people and technologies that were lost to other companies when the project was cancelled, and only now is the Canadian aerospace industry recovering.
I could go on with this stuff, but I think that's enough for now.
Actually Canadian Aircraft Industry has similar problem with Indonesian Aerospace[IAe] or PT Dirgantara Indonesia fomerly known as IPTN [Nusantara Aircraft Industry] that time and check out who's Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie /B.J. Habibie .
You are joking. The PS-13 Iroquois was not a myth. The engin out performed most of what was available at the time. It gave in 1950's what the PW F100 offered to the F-15 in the 80's in power. So the Iroquois could have offered the same power ration to an F-15 or an F-16. Now just imagin if Orenda was still around today and It would have been amazing to see what the evolution of the Iroquois engin would be today.
It the same with SpaceX, no one beleived them that they could land back the booster part of a rocket. They did it and look at the Falcon Heavy, That's one powerful launch system.
Now this proves that Avro and Orenda was one amazing combination that would have place teh Canadian Aerospace industry in front of the pack.
While tons of people lament the Arrow cancellation, it is noteworthy, that the Avro VULCAN was around, until recently...
The Avro that built the Vulcan had nothing to do with the Avro that built the Arrow. Two unrelated companies building two completely unrelated aircraft. The only thing in common was the corporate name.
Back in the day this was cancelled because of people in power wanting to line their pockets, nothing more
No. It was because of a naïve newly elected prime ministrer that believed the US President on a lie. A PM that came from farm land in the canadian west and he knew nothing about the aerospace tech. of the time. He basicaly believed the US whe he was told that missiles was the way of the future, when it was not. And look at the mess we have today.
@@lepompier132 He knew enough to understand that a plane that cost five times what competing planes cost couldn't be justified just in the name of national pride.
@@DesScorp wrong the historical facts are there were sales for the plane that would have far exceeded the cost and it is documented, there was corruption at the highest level of government and that is why the planes and all evidence was destroyed in such a manner that no one could ever dispute the governments claims at that time.
@@lepompier132 - Kill the Arrow or face trade problems. It works every time. It's about the jobs. Kill it or we get the tariffs going. Lumber, Beef. leverage!
@@DesScorp - That's the line of bull we got fed. They always lie about everything. You should know that. It's anything but what they are telling you.
Not too sure if it's still available, but there was a company that rebuilt one of these special engines, that was prepared to sell it for $1.2 million dollars.
S&S Turbines. Fort St. John B.C.
I'm pretty certain it's still in Fort Saint John. I'm hoping my childhood friend, Big Al, who has worked for S&S Turbines for years will be available this summer to open the SeaCan so I can see it and touch it.
Was this engine built by Orenda of Canada ?
YES it was. Orenda was a sub-division of AVRO of Canada.
Apparently there is a Orenda Iroquois disassembled engine in storage up in Fort St. John BC! It appears all the pieces for the full engine are there.
Also check out AgentJayZ TH-cam channel. He works at S&S Turbines and has some videos on the restoration of Oneda Iroquois s/n 116.
I have been there and seen it, plus allowed to touch it! My son in law works at the Fort St John airport an his boss knows the guys at the company that has the engine. He arranged for me to see it last summer (2019). It was great time for me because I used to watch the test flights of the Arrow when I was a kid. They flew over our house in Mississauga .
It would be cool if that engine could be placed into running condition.
Tall Guy , that is his intention. From what I understand he is pretty close. Just needs a couple of more parts, and if he can’t find them they will make them.
I think everybody has to take a time out on the Arrow to look at what happened AFTER it was cancelled. All budgets were systematically cut year after year for all arms of the forces.The army shrunk into almost nothing, so much so we RENTED tanks from the Germans and it was run by more bosses than troops. Our Navy was allowed to die on the vine with a half hearted attempt to build outdated frigates that were not maintained to keep them operational. We bought submarines and spent literally a billion dollars on them to have them permanently tied to the docks. The Argus, sabres and number of fighters drastically reduced in number. Right now we have less that 65 F-18 that are operational. We call ourselves a Northern nation and we dont even have icebreakers that can operate reliably in the North. All of them are 40 years old and almost derelict. Can you image what the forces would have been if we did build it. We would built 50 and mothball 45 of them so we could "go to war in the Middle East with 5 of them.
It was the right wing Conservatives that cancelled the Arrow. Every time the cons come to power they cancel programs that take years to recover from. The last bunch of con bandits cancelled the payroll system and the new one "Phoenix" is a total mess Employees havenot been paid, and/or some are over paid. This has been going on since 2015. All thanks to the Harper fools. Shutting down the arrow progran distroyed the Canadian Avation/Space industry.
So mr gomgtow do not talk shit about Socialist countries. You are an ignorant fool.
@Go MGTOW Next time you get sick you can always refuse treatment (or pay for it form your own pocket" because it's "Socialist"
Go study the history of Canada's governments between 1957 and 2023 factoring in the roles Canada's military was used in. We have far too few people for the area of our land mass. Fortunately, the sale of our natural resources has offset that to some extent.
One exists in norther BC canada in private hands. And is nearly complete. Though it is doubtful it will ever run as he is still missing some key parts.
I've said it before and I'll continue to. The Avro Arrow is a beauty. She is so far superior to other design from 50s/60s, heck even 70s interceptor designs world wide the her being binned was a crime. A case of politics at its worst. If Arrow were built today with today's tech updates she'd be absolutely untouchable. (although 26,000 w/AB per engine is pretty damn respectable even now) I imagine suitable fans might be cobbled together to help the range and fuel consumption. We Yanks should have kept out noses out of your business. Canucks had it right the first time.
What sucks is we still have some of the engines a few pieces of the aircraft , a full-scale model , some technical plans and blueprints still nobody will build one with today's technology we never know what could be possible
Canadian aviation was dealt a blow on the Arrow CF-105 cancelation.
Majority of the workers worked for NASA!
@Fidel > That is not true. A handful went to NASA, what I can find it was 32 engineers. There were over 400,000 people who worked on the Apollo missions. Get your facts straight.
@@rcairflr well my uncle along with others went to St. Louis for development work . Interesting what firm is or was there at the time.
Is the Orenda Iroquois Engine Operational?
This engine was a reverse engineered Rolls Royce RB106 which was one of the two preferred engines for the Arrow project. The other was the J67 from Curtis Wright that was a licence built Bristol Olympus from the Vulcan Bomber also used with reheat in the TSR-2 and later Concorde.
The reason this engine was built was because RR cancelled the RB106 as a result of the disastrous UK White Paper of 1957 (that argued for missiles rather than aircraft as Canada did) and GE cancelled the J67.
Not sure why the actual Olympus was not used as a replacement as the airframes were built for the CW J67 version already.
All in all its a terrible story of politicians (UK and Canadian) destroying aircraft, technology and engines that were years ahead of anything available anywhere else including America in 1957 and then again in the UK in 1965. Here in the UK we lost TSR-2, a supersonic Harrier P1154, a short take off transport HS681 and we did so to buy the F-111! God save us! All world leaders. And to rub salt into the wounds Labour also cancelled the new CVA-01 63,000 ton aircraft carrier that was again ground breaking in its design.
........it's being argued that aircraft carriers have had their day. They are too lucrative as a target . It'll be interesting to see what counter measures are developed against the latest carrier killer missiles. But we all know a submarine can do it.
After the Arrow cancellation, could Orenda market just the Iroquois engine alone to other aircraft manufacturers?
@UCh57rwk3ySElDpzgCDLh9KA @AgentJayZ I have seen the great work you do. For the Nation, it would be GREAT to get an operational Arrow Orenda Iroquois Engine! I am sure Ottawa would like to see it run again also!
Let's not forget the bombardier buyout of dehavilland
So like apparently some engineers that worked on the project refused to shut down the project and hid away the parts instead of scrapping it so we could possibly get the arrow to fly again if engineers would be willing
Could you provide a source please I’m very interested
Reminds me of the GE YJ-93
It would be interesting to see how well it works, perhaps they could reverse engineer one and build a new engine to try it in a jet
Just sad that politicians always screw up good things.
Where from was the titanium for engines obtained? Soviet Union maybe?
Sept-Illes, Quebec.
It is very neat, I have seen this display at the museum. It was a enormous loss for Canada when the Diefenbaker government cancelled the Arrow program. Diefenbaker and his team were strategic light weights regarding defence, and the affects this had on the future of aerospace development in Canada and what this did to the economy. Years later in 1961 the American President Eisenhower warned the American people about the industrial military complex. Well this "complex" worked very well behind the scenes with Diefenbaker to destroy an advanced industry here in Canada, and Diefenbaker and his boys wiped it out in the stroke of the pen. Now, we continue to have a debate on the merits of the F-35 to replace the ageing CF-18. I am not convinced that the F-35 is suitable air-frame nor is it cost effective for our needs. This plane will not fit in its main role for the defence of Canadian airspace and NA. It has limited range and its stealth capabilities is questionable. It would be cheaper to buy new F-15's (keep that production line going), outfit the avionics with up to date hardware and software, equip it with sturdy landing gears. Then in tandem, work to develop our own fighter plane for roll-out in 10 years time.
Diefenbaker and his team were strategic light weights in almost every area, so no surprise he bent over & took it from the Americans. Great analysis of the F-35 and the F-15 as an option, unfortunately Boeing's heavy handed tactics against Bombardier probably rule out that & the Super Hornet as options. I believe we should also consider the Gripen- great plane & can't hurt to strengthen our friendship w/ our European allies given the recent tend in foreign policy by our former BFF south of us...
i BELIEVE YOUR RIGHT EVEN TODAY WE NEED FAST, HIGH AND LONG RANGE HOVER ON THE ENVELOPE OF SPACE TO SWOOP DOWN ON ARE APPOINTS. JUST MY OPINION
Past time we/Canada start building our own Military equipment, to hell with foreign purchasing.
There is a second one in bc I believe
There is a guy in Vancouver that found one in England and I believe he has two now that are fully functional. Thought you would like to know.
NICE
Beautiful
It is a shame that that AVRO ARROW was killed of we had the same thing happen with the TSR 2. I think it was the United States that behind doors wanted the to be cancel. With the Arrow you wold have a plane that can fly as high as a U-2 and might have been able to intercept a SR-71. The TSR 2 was cancel so it did not complete against the F-111.
We should have done a joint build...half of the design team in Toronto were Brits anyway.
Elon musk should take the arrow plan and build one original arrow and slap in those Iroquois engine and see what it really does
I sure hope they consider the Avro instead of the F-35 better tech fast & 1/2 the cost
How on earth does a 60 year-old interceptor design incorporate better 'tech' than a 21st century fifth-Generation F-35A?
@Ed Klein > You take the prize for the dumbest you tube statement of the day. The Avro Arrow is over 60 years old. There doesn't exist a flyable aircraft.
You mean an updated version of the Arrow with the latest and greatest tech...
......perhaps the f35 is evolved from the arrow anyway. For one thing the skilled engineers and scientists from avro moved to the USA to work on the American projects.
Cancelling the Iroquois engine development was asinine.
The Iroquois was never installed in an Arrow.
Because of a decision made in 1959?
It was installed just never flew.
So Sad
Yes Canadian but i believe the brits that lived in this country were involved and they are smart people i'm French and Scottish but believe in giving credit where it's do.
reverse engineer and mass produce
No need to RE it, they still have the plans for it. A set was sent to the Canadian Research Council, just like a set of blueprints were for the Arrow itself. Those were missed when it came time to destroy everything, whether on purpose or not is unknown.
AVRO 2.0 would be an amazing bird for our air force.
Lack of political will, funding would be a challenge.
Did the Iroquois not pass test bed certification? I seem to have read this in one of the Arrow books.
I hate ti be cynical but these were probably why it was cancelled. Its range was so limited
The same fuckin' mess it is now!!!
can we force the canadian gov to give us those plane our tax dollar when into this and we never saw the pontential or lack of potential or are we bending over the usa wisher once more time i demand that we have them rebuild to see what these could really do
andre
calgary alberta
This is why i'll NEVER vote for the conservative in a federal election
And if anyone is interested it was Diefenbaker that canceled it Conservatives