One thing this video left out is that Lead Acid batteries are almost all recycled already at least once. Lead Acid batteries are 100% recyclable and are cheaper for manufacturers to send them to a recycling facility and then get the raw recycled materials back and build a new battery from, rather than purchasing the materials new. Lithium batteries are a lot more difficult and expensive to recycle, and there are fewer places to take them to for recycling. All lead acid batteries have a $10 to $100 "core" charge on them since they are so easy and cheap to recycle into a new battery, and anywhere that sells lead acid batteries accepts them for recycling when they reach end of life.
Thank you!!! Good videos, I have seen a few of your videos and they are far better than most not only because of the information but the way you share it! As far as I'm concerned an instructional video is NOT a music video, so I appreciate the fact that no music is included, and we can clearly hear what you're saying, just like in a classroom, thanks! :) If teaching was more effective with music, classrooms would blare loud music while the teacher is speaking... ;) Keep up with the great instructional videos, the information is what's important! :)
Thank you for your compliment Michel, I really appreciate it. I had to smile when I read what you said about music & instructional videos, I totally agree!
In a solar application when you have many days with no appreciable solar gain I find that lithium is worth their weight in gold. With FLA batteries sulfation is an issue unless they a fully charged. In rainy parts of the world FLA batteries can be at a partial SOC for weeks on end causing irreversible sulfation and batteries degradation. On the other hand Lithium ion can be at a partial SOC with no I'll affect. This is a very difficult thing to put a price on. In the real world of solar FLA batteries are a thing of the past.
Great video. Excellent analysis. The biggest downside of FLA for me are: - long charge time, - maintenance. If we think about it, longer charge time, also means higher electricity cost. That cost is not factored into your calculation. The longevity of 12yrs for a lead-acid is a pipe dream. Even if it's possible, it won't be the brand that costs $0.25/Wh. On the other hand, any lithium could last for 12yrs.
Hello Richard, it is good to hear you enjoyed the video. Thank you for sharing your perspective on FLA vs LiFePO4. All the best, Jesse.
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Long charge time does not necessarily higher electricity cost. a 100Amp lead acid battery cannot take more than 100Amp just as 100Amp lithium battery cannot take more than 100amps. The charging time differs according how fast they can absorb the current. I can charge the same battery using 1amp battery charger or 20amp battery charger, the electricity cost for 1 full charge will be the same at the end of the day, only difference will be the time you spend while charging. Another note: if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery.
@ *Ewu nbe l'oko Longe, Longe fun'ra e, ewu ni* It actually does. A lot of the amp passed to Lead-Acid battery is lost as heat. The emitted heat in turn heats up the room, which then requires a fan/AC to cool the room. Do you see how more electricity is required? *if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery* I agree with that point. However, time is also money. The amount of time lost charging a Lead-Acid battery is costing you money. It's like saying it's cheaper to drive than to fly. But what about the longer time you spent driving?
I have ran 8 (Sam's club specials) 6 volt Duracell golf cart batteries in my 48 volt system and they actually did pretty good. I did put them to work and they have seen many cycles and held up but the real world life expectancy for batteries like this are around 3 to 5 years. I am in my 4th year and the capacity has dropped enough that they need to be replaced. This time I am considering going with LiFePO4 Batteries and from everything I'm reading about these batteries is that if you stay within the manufacturers guidelines of the the LFeP04 batteries that you will get a lot more lifetime out of the LFePO4 Batteries vs lead acid batteries. The price really needs to drop to make this affordable for the average person and this is why the flooded lead acid batteries are still selling pretty good for solar projects. The price was my only hesitation on going with iFePO4 Batteries the first time around with my system.
Li-Ion does not have the PSOC - Partial State of Charge issue that Lead Acid does. Lead Acid batteries require a much longer Absorb Cycle, which requires many more Solar Panels to get Lead Acid up to 100% SOC before the sun sets. Under-Charging a Lead Acid battery, leads to sulfation and an early death. There are many PRO's & CON's to compare.
My compliments for your thorough research and critical thinking. I agree with you on the quantity of Pros & Cons regarding Lithium Vs Lead Acid batteries. Did you already check out the video on LiFePO4 vs Lead Acid? I shared that video specifically for the comparison debate. th-cam.com/video/qDPuQeZIhG4/w-d-xo.html
Yeah, partial state of charge will shorten a lead acid banks lifespan with a quickness and is a major issue in winter time where you might have significantly reduced solar output. The cost increase in the size of the battery bank to get good lifespans due to limiting your depth of discharge, combined with efficiency lost in charging them and the increase in solar needed to charge them, all makes lead acid really not worth it these days if you have access to lifepo4 cells of good quality and reasonable prices. Depending on where you are in the world will depend on access to those.
except I can renew a lead acid battery to new, you cannot however do the same to lithium. 200amps for 15 minutes 1 hour off to cool about 5 cycles, then battery is back to new. after 3 years dump and filter the acid (if you have the proper means) wash the battery out with distilled water and refill with proper level acid.
Could you do a new video based on the new energy usage value now that everyone in the UK now pay 80% more for their energy please. I know lifepo4 will win now.
Not sure if the costs of lithium Iron phosphate have come down dramatically recently. It looks relatively easy to find 12 volt 200 Amp hour LiFePo4 batteries for around $600. $600/2400Wh = $0.25/Wh. Seems like a no brainer at that price. Hopefully prices keep dropping. I want to build an off the grid home in a couple years.
I am sure your calculations are correct. With my home made power wall I have found the number of cycles a Lion can preform before going bad. Had more to do with how cold / hot it has gotten and how many times this happens. after 6 years of heavy use I lost 5% on my home made pack of 18560. Total of 2kwh the packs farther away from the cooling vent have more loss.
An excellent presentation, thank you. Consideration should also be given to whether the battery is being used in a fixed setting or a mobile one. It takes energy to move mass. If it is a mobile application, the lithium weight savings reduces the cost of moving from one place to another. If the battery is being used in a fixed location, the weight differential might not even be a consideration.
Do you have experience in dealing with commercial trucks electronic APU? Theseat deal with similar setups having a starting battery, its connected to an auxiliary battery bank. That 2nd battery bank connects to an inverter to power electronics in the transport trucks bunk.
I'd love to see an update 3 years later because as you said, lithium batteries are new and there are frequent upgrades. Are your verdicts still the same?
Apologies if I missed it. I was under the impression that lithium can accept a much faster charge than lead acid. That might contribute to cost to charge. I'd heard it makes a difference in fuel economy when used as a car battery. I'm still looking for a report on that.
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long charge time does not necessarily higher electricity cost. a 100Amp lead acid battery cannot take more than 100Amp just as 100Amp lithium battery cannot take more than 100amps. The charging time differs according how fast they can absorb the current. I can charge the same battery using 1amp battery charger or 20amp battery charger, the electricity cost for 1 full charge will be the same at the end of the day, only difference will be the time you spend while charging. Another note: if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery.
@ I don't remember my point fr. But a new one popped into my head. A lot of people charge their car at a public access charge point. Some operators of those charge per time. In this case, it costs less the faster it can and the car can accept a charge.
Bought your course on Off-Grid and just starting watching the first videos. That said I am building my own lifepo4 battery with 16 grade A 280ah modules, that I just bought (May 2022) I was able to find them for 2200 euros in total including a strong 300A BMS with 80% capacity it’s 0.20 euros per KWh… with the peace of mind of having no maintenance and such great performance. I think in the future lifepo4 or other lithium batteries will be a no brainer compared to lead acid
Great report. {I had to edit a "typo} Now 2 years on - I guess we can establish the 7% per year reduction in LiFePO4 initial cost and update the difference between types. My interest in not a stationary site, but my Camper Van. In my situation, there is a very significant difference in weight between the 2 types. LiFePO4 come in at about 30% of the same size (Ah) Lead Acid Bank. When comparing 200 Ah vs 200 Ah and factoring in Depth of Discharge; Lithium would be about 20% of the weight. To get a 200Ah house bank, that would be 200 extra pounds of weight using Lead Acid. [400 Ah lead Acid to equal 250 Ah to get 200Ah effective] Not scientific, but the "Hot Rod" rule of thumb; is 10 pounds = 1 HP. The Lead Acid bank nets a MINUS 20hp, with attendant "lifetime" fuel costs. The US EPA reported 100# can lower fuel economy by 1%, so a net loss [with 200 AH House Bank) is 2% decrease in MPG. While "small" about 20 gallons of fuel per year, up to $60-$100 per year increase in fuel. Considering LiFePO4 "life span" nominally 10 years, the fuel cost offset [$600-$1000] would offset the initial investment and the likelihood of a Lead Acid Replacement during that period. Well, I think I have convinced myself which path I'll take. Thank you. Regards, Jim
Hi Jim! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, considerations and plans. I am sure this will be valuable feedback for other viewers as well. Good luck and have with your planned upgrades!
Fine video ...calm, intelligent. Your outlines are smooth, lucid, perfect for english speaking professionals :] Thank you for your tips and insights ... brilliant and very generous. Thank you!
I watched a documentary regarding the useable life in Lithium car batteries using data from car companies that had been producing electric cars for a decade or so. The main point of the documentary seemed to point out that in electric cars that had no system management software (Nissan Leaf) the battery performance diminished rapidly. Whereas in the Tesla cars which do have a management software the battery performance over the life span was markedly better. I have no doubt this also is the same for whatever purpose the batteries are being used for. The reason for the differences seemed to be based mainly on the temperature of the batteries over their lifespan. The ones that had the benefit of the management system and had their temperature monitored and controlled seemed to fare much better. Just wondered on your comments on this? Also, are you excited by the fact that we are getting closer to 'solid-state' lithium batteries and would you invest in companies that are researching this technology ?
Hi Chris! Thanks for your message and for sharing your thoughts, very interesting. You might be interested in the video I shared regarding LiFePO4, here is the link: th-cam.com/video/qDPuQeZIhG4/w-d-xo.html As for your questions: Please refer to the pinned comment at the top. All the best, Jesse.
The worst place on earth for a car battery is under the hood of a car in summer. Mine lives in a box welded to the side of the frame of my truck away from the hot engine compartment.
I have a off grid cottage in eastern Ontario Canada, would like your opinion on a generator automatic transfer switch when the lead acid battery bank drops to 50%. This is crucial in the winter with little daylight and snow covered solar panels. Thanks for your informative videos.
This video is already out of date in pricing. LiFePo4 prices are much lower now. Example: 3.2v 280AH 896wH cell Sells for $80-90 per cell This means, based on 80%, this battery has $0.11/wH cost. This is greater than 50% cheaper than Solar Solution quote of lead-acid cost of $0.25/wH
Thanks for sharing, though you might want to verify your calculations. Note the difference between Wh and kWh, and battery capacity in kWh versus energy withdrawn over the lifetime of a battery in kWh. Always good to have critical viewers though! Good luck, Jesse.
2 weeks ago, I bought 4x LiFePO4 200 Ah cells for $365 USD total to replace 2x 210 Ah 6V FLA's that I bought for $230 one year ago. I'm pretty sure the prices were higher last year for LiFePO4, but I can't remember for sure. I'm doing this purely for space reasons: You cannot put 210 Ah 12V of lead under one car seat :)
Is your 7% figure per year price drop in lithium batteries accurate? I don't know the proper comparison points, but it seems wildly pessimistic to me. This video is coming up on 4 years old, and by my calculations LiFePO4 is now about $0.25/wh or less, or 1/4 of the video mentioned price. That would be an annual decline of 36%. For example, a $300/1280wh 12v100ah battery is $0.24/wh, but increasingly available for $200 or $0.16/wh; or a $1300/5120wh 48(actually 51.2)v100ah server rack battery comes out to $0.254/wh and cheaper rack batteries are available; or raw cells of 3.2v280ah are $100/896wh or $0.112/wh. Those prices often include shipping but may require buying multiple. On the other hand, it appears lead acid has increased by 50% to 100% since the video was published, accompanied by a similar increase in shipping costs (which are always significantly higher than the much lighter LiFePO4). My nearly 10 year experience with 20 raw LiFePO4 cells (Sinopoly 100ah in black plastic) has been very good (assembled into nominally 48v and 12v packs). Performance was much better than the 6v golf car batteries they replaced, even considering the lead acid started with 2x the nominal capacity. At the time they did cost me 2x what a new set of golf car batteries would have cost, but were "sealed" for no maintenance and promised considerably longer life. Both have been true.
Thanks for your feedback Sylvan! Yes, the values are accurate. Please note that this video covers 'drop in' replacement LiFePO4 only. If you were to compare individual LiFePO4 cells, prices would be a lot lower. Thanks!
In 2024 LiFePo4 prices got that cheap that they are comparable to AGM, especially as they are VAT free in some EU countries due to solar engagement of goverments.
In Australia I can’t get a flooded lead acid to last any more than 3 years But interesting on your theories I just built 2x16S48 volt packs and hoping to get 7 years service from them but good luck to every one and stay safe !
cheers for your reply! The main point i missed in my comment was the quality of the batteries i have used reminiscing on the past I am sure they were cheap rubbish dressed up. Thanks for all your very good information as usual. informative and exciting to view! thank you for your time!
Excellent video, as always! I do have one question. How would a Lead Crystal battery compare here? Is it an alternative to traditional AGM/GEL batteries? And can it be charged with normal 3 step chargers, I does look as if it has a somewhat different charge profile but it also seems to be a better performing battery, if it is used correctly. Would be interesting to see a video about this topic. Thanks!
Hello MJ, it is good to hear from you. You have a valid and excellent question: You are also not the first one to ask about lead crystal batteries, so this means it is time for a dedicated video. I will add it to the list! All the best, Jesse.
Thank you for you message Gary, I am glad to hear the video helped you in your decision making process. You make me curious now: Which battery type of battery are you going for, and based on which arguments? Thanks, Jesse
Hi Jesse, interesting video. Only thing that bothers me is this: You compare life cycle when charging/discharging every day. Thats not real world. And gives a completely wrong image. When you for example would charge/disch once a week Then lead acid would be dead after 8 years, but Lifepo4 would run happily for many many years. Also when Not using a lead acid battery for say 4 months, you can usually throw them away., kaput. Lifepo4 battery's don't care, and stay happy uncharted for months. When you take is in consideration lead acid is very expensive and heavy. I have a camper an and replace my lead battery's 3x 90Ah approx 100kg for Lifepo4 2x 150 Ah approx 30 kg. And when I'm not using the camper, the battery's don't die on me. Groetjes, Rijk Almere
Thank you for your message RitchyCamaro, it is good to hear that the video invoked your your critical thinking: I understand your perspective and I agree with you that Lithium batteries have several excellent performance characteristics unique to their chemistry. As you mentioned, this video describes the scenario of stationary, regularly cycled batteries, as opposed to your camper application. I am glad to hear your enjoy your batteries! All the best, Jesse
Can you do the same calculations with a (IFLA) forklift battery?.... it is probably half the price of regular FLA... capacity is given at C/6, not C/20...capacity @ C/6 x 1.57 = capacity at C/20.. and discharge at 80%, can last 20 years,
Thanks for the information! Could you please do a video on the best battery for the application. Off grid seasonal Off grid full time grid back up 10-20 cycles per year grid back up 20-100 cycles per year grid back up 365 cycles per year
@@SolarSolution Thanks again. I really appreciate your videos. I have been installing solar PV for a few years now. Your videos are top notch, a big help to all who want unbiased information.
Thank you for another great video Jesse. I've been doing my homework on lithium battery cost/benefit and it seems that the capital cost is now dropping faster than 7% p/year. DIY Solar with Will Prowes recently did a bench test of BigBattery .com 12 and 24-volt Powerblock batteries and revealed a cost of $0,45 and $0,35 p/watt hour (USD). It's remarkable how competition for this space seems to be driving capital costs down so rapidly. Bedankt!
Hi Duncan! You are welcome, and thanks for your message. It is good to hear that you are accumulating knowledge [thumbs up]. Just as a note for your research: This video I shared describes the cost per kWh over the lifetime of a battery, which is different from the value which you often come across in other discussions, being the upfront purchase cost of a battery versus the storage capacity of the battery. Good luck and enjoy! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Hi Jesse! I am referring to your comment at 2:23 where you state the cost per usable watt hour is $1. Hence my comment about recent cost reductions to $0,35 and $0,35 USD per watt hour. Perhaps I misunderstood. Stay well. :-)
@@duncanjames914 Thanks for your feedback, I see what you are saying now. The values I am sharing are based on the following assumptions: New batteries / Lithium Iron Phosphate technology / adjusted to usable capacity. I trust this helps in your research. Enjoy! If you need my personal advice, feel free to get in touch via the website. All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Thank you Jesse! Yes, the costs I mentioned are for the same technology but at 100% of capacity. I suppose we should divide those numbers by 0,8 in order to assess the usable cost per watt-hour. Thanks again.
Hello Desmond, thank you for your question. Both Lithium and Lead Acid batteries have their own great features that come with the specific technology and battery design. The final choice for the right type of battery depends on various considerations, I would need additional information in order to give you a definite answer. You can contact me through www.solarsolution.co/services
@@SolarSolution DEKA SOLAR Flooded Lead Acid ... Upon satisfactory proof of claim, as determined solely by EPM, EPM will repair or, at its option, replace any defective battery. A defect in material or workmanship is defined as failure to reach at least => *50%* *50%*
Is the basic advantage to using a dc/dc charger having a ramped 3 cycle charge? The dc/dc charger can not make more energy than the alternator can produce, but does it change the current to higher amps and lower volts?
Interesting video but I have a couple of questions. What happens to different battery types at end of life? Which are easier to deal with & recycle? Will Super & ultra capacitors enhance or eventually replace other energy storage systems?
One thing this video left out is that Lead Acid batteries are almost all recycled already at least once. Lead Acid batteries are 100% recyclable and are cheaper for manufacturers to send them to a recycling facility and then get the raw recycled materials back and build a new battery from, rather than purchasing the materials new. Lithium batteries are a lot more difficult and expensive to recycle, and there are fewer places to take them to for recycling. All lead acid batteries have a $10 to $100 "core" charge on them since they are so easy and cheap to recycle into a new battery, and anywhere that sells lead acid batteries accepts them for recycling when they reach end of life.
@@iantheinventor8151 You have to test them, most of them lie about the storage, or give an unrealistic representation. That's something I have struggled with a LOT. You have to read the fine print of the method they used to determine the capacity of each one.
With updated prices, I get LiFePO4 is 7X cheaper ($/Kwh-cycle) over battery life than deep cycle lead acid with LiFePO4 50%DOD and deep cycle Pb 30%DOD.
$1 per wh seems very high, whereas I've heard of nmc lithium batteries for less than $200 per kwh...and Tesla powerwall is ~$520 per kwh. What's driving your cost estimates? Thanks!
Hello Emory, thanks for your message and your question. The input data for the calculations are real-life figures from the industry. Does this answer your question? All the best, Jesse.
and he looks at lipo batts with high warranty standards. Tesla powerwall is also subsidized; used to grab marketshare, or piggy-backed onto a tesla solar tile roof.
Gyll 5.1kW at $1499. $0.2-$0.4 becomes $0.0735-$0.146… thus cheaper than lead acid over lifetime. When you compare all other features, anyone purchasing lead acid should be kicking themselves.
If you are willing to DIY a LiFePO4 battery, it can be competitive. I purchased raw LiFePO4 cells for $1420, shipping included to build a 25.6V, 202AH nominal pack, or around 5 kWh. I also had to purchase a BMS, some wire and connectors. All told, I spent no more than $1700. That is about 34 cents per watt-hour, and I know there are places out there to get the raw cells for less if you're willing to wait 2+ months for shipping.
Thank you for your feedback Andrew. Well done, I am sure you enjoyed that project! Please note that in this video I focus on the cumulative energy discharge over the lifetime of a battery [in kWh] in order to make an apple-to-apple comparison, whereas the value you are referring to is the capacity of the battery [in kWh as well]. I hope this helps, enjoy your Lithium battery bank! All the best, Jesse.
$1/KWH for LiFePO ? No way. I'm paying $0.35 /KWH (at 80% usage) for 48V 28AH ($381 each, including shipping and charger) and that's not even a very good deal. Note also that going to 80% discharge, these batteries average 51.5V, not 48V, so the actual cost of my slightly-over-priced batteries is actually $0.33, and I have tested the capacity, which is as claimed. I also buy 12V 35AH AGM (lead-acid) at $60 including shipping, but the LiFePOs are more efficient at fast discharge.
Thank you for your feedback PattyDung: I am happy to hear you are content with your Lithium batteries, and I am sure you will for many years to come! As for your price references: This has been discussed in previous comments in this thread. All the best, Jesse.
I would like to know how to size solar panels, inverters, and batteries in a way so they all work well together. I don't want to waste money on oversizing one set of components.
Hello Justin, thanks for you message. I think you have a very valid question here, and I haven't shared a video on it yet. I will start working on the video and share it with you when it's ready. Thanks Justin! All the best, Jesse.
Interesting. An engineer who posts on You Tube as well, knurlknar24, came to the same conclusion. Hard to argue with the science. I am still using AGM's but have been seriously considering going to Lithium Iron Phosphate. This has me pausing right now. One thing I don't like about the lead acid battery is that one really should only use 50% DOD for longevity of the battery and Lithium and I can supposedly take it down to around 10% without harm. That means a LOT less battery pack in terms of size and weight.
What about the nasty Peukert Effect in Lead Acid Batteries? Having huge load spikes like electric kitchen appliances is not a rare circumstance. The Peukert effect is not applicable in LiFePo4 as it is compensated by the self-heating -> capacity increase effect. It should be part of the comparison to make it an apple to apple one let alone the nasty consequences for lead-acid batteries when staying in a 50% SoC for several days during non-laboratory real-world circumstances.
For fixed installations, it's still hard to beat lead acid. Very durable especially to temperature extremes, and dead cheap. Not great for weight or power density but with fixed sites you usually don't care. For vehicles the power density of lithium makes more sense.
Hi Jon! Haha you are not the only one. I honestly wish LiFePO4 would be cost competitive already, since their technical performance is quite amazing. We shall see what the future will bring! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution I noticed that you stick to 80% on lithium batteries as 'end of lifetime' to compare apples to apples .... but that's still 60% usable energy compare to 50% in a brand new lead acid .... so your analyse is not telling the true value.
Did you consider risk into the equation? If 1 time the FLA battery is drawn down past 50% or down to 0% which is likely in off grid applications the batteries are ruined. Risk is not free or insurance wouldn't cost anything. LifePo4 has "supposedly" no degradation if drawn down fully. If you are off grid and have the chance of drawing down your bank to 0 or close to 0 then you should NEVER buy FLA batteries. Example, customers well pump faulted and ran overnight. Batteries drew down to Zero state of charge. Her 1 year old $8K AGM battery bank was ruined.
One big disadvantage of LA batteries that you did not mention is that they are hard to charge! If you start with a fixed amount of power to charge the batteries with, lithium will absorb & store much more of that power for later use than LA. Trying to charge LA batteries from about 70 to 100% requires a lot of energy, not very efficient in that range. Typical sealed LA batteries are only good for about 3 years. So I guess you are comparing lithium with flooded LA batteries. Flooded batteries are hazardous because they contain acid and vent explosive H gas. You also have to add water all the time, maintenance is painful.
Thanks for your feedback and for sharing your thoughts Greg. Your are spot on regarding the charging efficiencies differences between Lithium and Lead Acid due to the absorption stages. While this video has a primary focus on the price paid per discharged kWh over the lifetime of the battery, the following video explains the technical pros and cons of Lead Acid vs LiFePO4. Enjoy!
@@SolarSolution love this channel Lead is not DEAD I'll bet alot of fla batt haters have huge amp hours not realizing you should at least double your solar intake for said amp hour bank
@@alonzodesantis6989 Thanks for your message Alonzo, it is good to hear you enjoy the content. And I agree with you, a lot of off grid systems have undersized their solar array. Sound like YOU probably didn't! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution It was actually a iron thermite fire that burnt me. But it's burning metal all the same. You can not put out a burning metal fire full stop no matter what you try. I'm not taking any chances. Why take the risk if you don't need to? Lead acid will always be my only choice.
Thank you for sharing this Dan, I appreciate it. I think we often deal with quite risky materials on a daily basis, but don't realize it untill it goes terribly wrong. It makes me feel sick when I try to imagine what it must have been like for you... I am trying to understand what the source of the iron thermite fire was. A google search told me that it is often used for the following purposes, is this correct? 1. Welding and cutting metals 2. Metal casting and purification 3. Demolition and explosive ordnance disposal 4. Fireworks and pyrotechnics 5. Scientific research and experimentation 6. Military applications [incendiary devices] I can totally relate to your preference for Flooded Lead Acid [FLA] battery technology, including the Absorbent Glass Mat [AGM] batteries. Each battery chemistry comes with their own pros and cons, and when it comes to material safety, FLA's have less cons IMO. That being said, some of the fire risks of Lithium-based batteries have been substantially mitigated by the introduction of Lithium Iron Phosphate [LiFEPO4] batteries. Thank you for sharing your concerns about the risks of lithium-based batteries Dan, I appreciate it, and I'm sure this could be helpfull for other viewers as well. Jesse
I like how your cost per use conveniently doesn’t include maintenance, which is a big disadvantage for lead. You never talk about entertainment density or charge rates which make lead more difficult to build a system. also with Lithiums high usable energy capacity the 80% EoL standard isn’t apples to apples because a lithium battery would still have more usable energy at 60% EoL to a lead battery at 80% EoL.
Depth of discharge is better, life cycles are better, warranties are better in spite of your claim, maintenance is next to none. The only downside is increased up front cost, but the advantages of spending a little more to get WAAAY better performance are worth it.
Lead is still king for a large 5min UPS as the cost is low and the required c rate is high and they are not been cycled. Other than that most usage scenarios where we care about cycles LFP kills lead. But to be fair if your in the Business lead pays the bills as you get more business more often. He has a point that warrenties on turn key solutions are tough for Joe average and are in the providers favor, not to mention there is alot of $$ margin in a packaged lithium solutions. At this point the 280a cell conservatively run is just great value. If you can keep your voltage between 3.5V and 3V ,c rate below .5 and temperature reasonable you have in theroy 20 odd years. He is a salesman.
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Course trailer and Coupon Code:th-cam.com/video/0Fh26SUnnx0/w-d-xo.html
One thing this video left out is that Lead Acid batteries are almost all recycled already at least once. Lead Acid batteries are 100% recyclable and are cheaper for manufacturers to send them to a recycling facility and then get the raw recycled materials back and build a new battery from, rather than purchasing the materials new. Lithium batteries are a lot more difficult and expensive to recycle, and there are fewer places to take them to for recycling. All lead acid batteries have a $10 to $100 "core" charge on them since they are so easy and cheap to recycle into a new battery, and anywhere that sells lead acid batteries accepts them for recycling when they reach end of life.
Thank you!!! Good videos, I have seen a few of your videos and they are far better than most not only because of the information but the way you share it! As far as I'm concerned an instructional video is NOT a music video, so I appreciate the fact that no music is included, and we can clearly hear what you're saying, just like in a classroom, thanks! :) If teaching was more effective with music, classrooms would blare loud music while the teacher is speaking... ;) Keep up with the great instructional videos, the information is what's important! :)
Thank you for your compliment Michel, I really appreciate it. I had to smile when I read what you said about music & instructional videos, I totally agree!
In a solar application when you have many days with no appreciable solar gain I find that lithium is worth their weight in gold. With FLA batteries sulfation is an issue unless they a fully charged. In rainy parts of the world FLA batteries can be at a partial SOC for weeks on end causing irreversible sulfation and batteries degradation. On the other hand Lithium ion can be at a partial SOC with no I'll affect. This is a very difficult thing to put a price on. In the real world of solar FLA batteries are a thing of the past.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I understand your train of thought. All the best, Jesse.
Great video. Excellent analysis.
The biggest downside of FLA for me are:
- long charge time,
- maintenance.
If we think about it, longer charge time, also means higher electricity cost. That cost is not factored into your calculation.
The longevity of 12yrs for a lead-acid is a pipe dream. Even if it's possible, it won't be the brand that costs $0.25/Wh. On the other hand, any lithium could last for 12yrs.
Hello Richard, it is good to hear you enjoyed the video. Thank you for sharing your perspective on FLA vs LiFePO4. All the best, Jesse.
Long charge time does not necessarily higher electricity cost. a 100Amp lead acid battery cannot take more than 100Amp just as 100Amp lithium battery cannot take more than 100amps. The charging time differs according how fast they can absorb the current. I can charge the same battery using 1amp battery charger or 20amp battery charger, the electricity cost for 1 full charge will be the same at the end of the day, only difference will be the time you spend while charging. Another note: if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery.
@
*Ewu nbe l'oko Longe, Longe fun'ra e, ewu ni*
It actually does. A lot of the amp passed to Lead-Acid battery is lost as heat. The emitted heat in turn heats up the room, which then requires a fan/AC to cool the room. Do you see how more electricity is required?
*if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery*
I agree with that point. However, time is also money. The amount of time lost charging a Lead-Acid battery is costing you money. It's like saying it's cheaper to drive than to fly. But what about the longer time you spent driving?
I have ran 8 (Sam's club specials) 6 volt Duracell golf cart batteries in my 48 volt system and they actually did pretty good. I did put them to work and they have seen many cycles and held up but the real world life expectancy for batteries like this are around 3 to 5 years. I am in my 4th year and the capacity has dropped enough that they need to be replaced. This time I am considering going with LiFePO4 Batteries and from everything I'm reading about these batteries is that if you stay within the manufacturers guidelines of the the LFeP04 batteries that you will get a lot more lifetime out of the LFePO4 Batteries vs lead acid batteries. The price really needs to drop to make this affordable for the average person and this is why the flooded lead acid batteries are still selling pretty good for solar projects. The price was my only hesitation on going with iFePO4 Batteries the first time around with my system.
Thank you for sharing! I agree on the 6V Duracells FLA's, they are pretty good batteries.
Li-Ion does not have the PSOC - Partial State of Charge issue that Lead Acid does. Lead Acid batteries require a much longer Absorb Cycle, which requires many more Solar Panels to get Lead Acid up to 100% SOC before the sun sets. Under-Charging a Lead Acid battery, leads to sulfation and an early death. There are many PRO's & CON's to compare.
My compliments for your thorough research and critical thinking. I agree with you on the quantity of Pros & Cons regarding Lithium Vs Lead Acid batteries. Did you already check out the video on LiFePO4 vs Lead Acid? I shared that video specifically for the comparison debate.
th-cam.com/video/qDPuQeZIhG4/w-d-xo.html
Yeah, partial state of charge will shorten a lead acid banks lifespan with a quickness and is a major issue in winter time where you might have significantly reduced solar output. The cost increase in the size of the battery bank to get good lifespans due to limiting your depth of discharge, combined with efficiency lost in charging them and the increase in solar needed to charge them, all makes lead acid really not worth it these days if you have access to lifepo4 cells of good quality and reasonable prices. Depending on where you are in the world will depend on access to those.
Compared to elaborate BMS required by lithium. Without it lithium is DOA.
except I can renew a lead acid battery to new, you cannot however do the same to lithium. 200amps for 15 minutes 1 hour off to cool about 5 cycles, then battery is back to new. after 3 years dump and filter the acid (if you have the proper means) wash the battery out with distilled water and refill with proper level acid.
Could you do a new video based on the new energy usage value now that everyone in the UK now pay 80% more for their energy please.
I know lifepo4 will win now.
Not sure if the costs of lithium Iron phosphate have come down dramatically recently.
It looks relatively easy to find 12 volt 200 Amp hour LiFePo4 batteries for around $600.
$600/2400Wh = $0.25/Wh.
Seems like a no brainer at that price. Hopefully prices keep dropping. I want to build an off the grid home in a couple years.
£900+ here in the UK for 200 Ah lifeP04.
£500+ for 100Ah 😆
@@spike178can get 560 ah for 1100£ now
Very nicely presented comparison, nice logical approach to the subject, very comprehensive and very clearly explained. Many thanks.
Glad it was helpful John!
I am sure your calculations are correct. With my home made power wall I have found the number of cycles a Lion can preform before going bad. Had more to do with how cold / hot it has gotten and how many times this happens. after 6 years of heavy use I lost 5% on my home made pack of 18560. Total of 2kwh the packs farther away from the cooling vent have more loss.
Hi Michael, thanks for your message. Thumbs up for building your own power wall, and thanks for sharing your experience! Jesse.
temp control is very important for the lifespan of either battery tech.
An excellent presentation, thank you.
Consideration should also be given to whether the battery is being used in a fixed setting or a mobile one. It takes energy to move mass. If it is a mobile application, the lithium weight savings reduces the cost of moving from one place to another. If the battery is being used in a fixed location, the weight differential might not even be a consideration.
Great point!
You are the only one who describes the way you test and interpret values that exactly. Thank you!
Thanks Olaf! It is nice to hear you appreciat this approach as well.
Great will buy a AGM lead carbon battery already have two Lithium 500 watt Jackery power stations.
Do you have experience in dealing with commercial trucks electronic APU? Theseat deal with similar setups having a starting battery, its connected to an auxiliary battery bank. That 2nd battery bank connects to an inverter to power electronics in the transport trucks bunk.
I'd love to see an update 3 years later because as you said, lithium batteries are new and there are frequent upgrades. Are your verdicts still the same?
The update is on the way, thanks!
Apologies if I missed it. I was under the impression that lithium can accept a much faster charge than lead acid. That might contribute to cost to charge. I'd heard it makes a difference in fuel economy when used as a car battery. I'm still looking for a report on that.
long charge time does not necessarily higher electricity cost. a 100Amp lead acid battery cannot take more than 100Amp just as 100Amp lithium battery cannot take more than 100amps. The charging time differs according how fast they can absorb the current. I can charge the same battery using 1amp battery charger or 20amp battery charger, the electricity cost for 1 full charge will be the same at the end of the day, only difference will be the time you spend while charging. Another note: if you have patience to charge it slower you will get more lifetime out of a battery.
@ I don't remember my point fr. But a new one popped into my head. A lot of people charge their car at a public access charge point. Some operators of those charge per time. In this case, it costs less the faster it can and the car can accept a charge.
Bought your course on Off-Grid and just starting watching the first videos. That said I am building my own lifepo4 battery with 16 grade A 280ah modules, that I just bought (May 2022) I was able to find them for 2200 euros in total including a strong 300A BMS with 80% capacity it’s 0.20 euros per KWh… with the peace of mind of having no maintenance and such great performance. I think in the future lifepo4 or other lithium batteries will be a no brainer compared to lead acid
That sounds like a great setup Olivierus, well done! Good luck and have fun with the course.
do I missing something? 2200e / (280a*48v* 0.9 *3000cycles) should be something close to 6 cents per kwh
(I used 90 percent as a full cycle)
Outstanding explanations with the added diagrams. Very professionally done, thanks Jesse.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. You deliver in a clear, concise and very understandable manner! Thanks for sharing your technical knowledge. Much appreciated!!
You're very welcome Dan, thanks for your message!
Great report. {I had to edit a "typo}
Now 2 years on - I guess we can establish the 7% per year reduction in LiFePO4 initial cost and update the difference between types. My interest in not a stationary site, but my Camper Van. In my situation, there is a very significant difference in weight between the 2 types.
LiFePO4 come in at about 30% of the same size (Ah) Lead Acid Bank. When comparing 200 Ah vs 200 Ah and factoring in Depth of Discharge; Lithium would be about 20% of the weight. To get a 200Ah house bank, that would be 200 extra pounds of weight using Lead Acid. [400 Ah lead Acid to equal 250 Ah to get 200Ah effective]
Not scientific, but the "Hot Rod" rule of thumb; is 10 pounds = 1 HP. The Lead Acid bank nets a MINUS 20hp, with attendant "lifetime" fuel costs. The US EPA reported 100# can lower fuel economy by 1%, so a net loss [with 200 AH House Bank) is 2% decrease in MPG. While "small" about 20 gallons of fuel per year, up to $60-$100 per year increase in fuel.
Considering LiFePO4 "life span" nominally 10 years, the fuel cost offset [$600-$1000] would offset the initial investment and the likelihood of a Lead Acid Replacement during that period. Well, I think I have convinced myself which path I'll take.
Thank you. Regards, Jim
Hi Jim! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, considerations and plans. I am sure this will be valuable feedback for other viewers as well. Good luck and have with your planned upgrades!
Fine video ...calm, intelligent. Your outlines are smooth, lucid, perfect for english speaking professionals :] Thank you for your tips and insights ... brilliant and very generous. Thank you!
Thank you for your feedback and compliment Mark, it is great to hear you appreciated the content. All the best, Jesse.
I watched a documentary regarding the useable life in Lithium car batteries using data from car companies that had been producing electric cars for a decade or so. The main point of the documentary seemed to point out that in electric cars that had no system management software (Nissan Leaf) the battery performance diminished rapidly. Whereas in the Tesla cars which do have a management software the battery performance over the life span was markedly better. I have no doubt this also is the same for whatever purpose the batteries are being used for. The reason for the differences seemed to be based mainly on the temperature of the batteries over their lifespan. The ones that had the benefit of the management system and had their temperature monitored and controlled seemed to fare much better. Just wondered on your comments on this? Also, are you excited by the fact that we are getting closer to 'solid-state' lithium batteries and would you invest in companies that are researching this technology ?
Hi Chris! Thanks for your message and for sharing your thoughts, very interesting. You might be interested in the video I shared regarding LiFePO4, here is the link:
th-cam.com/video/qDPuQeZIhG4/w-d-xo.html
As for your questions: Please refer to the pinned comment at the top. All the best, Jesse.
yep, here in Texas, Nissan leafs die on the hot parking lots.
The worst place on earth for a car battery is under the hood of a car in summer. Mine lives in a box welded to the side of the frame of my truck away from the hot engine compartment.
I have a off grid cottage in eastern Ontario Canada, would like your opinion on a generator automatic transfer switch when the lead acid battery bank drops to 50%.
This is crucial in the winter with little daylight and snow covered solar panels.
Thanks for your informative videos.
Thank you so much. What about temperature range between the two?
You are welcome Jeremy, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. You can contact me for specific questions via www.solarsolution.co
@@SolarSolution thanks, I might do that.
This video is already out of date in pricing. LiFePo4 prices are much lower now.
Example: 3.2v 280AH 896wH cell
Sells for $80-90 per cell
This means, based on 80%, this battery has $0.11/wH cost.
This is greater than 50% cheaper than Solar Solution quote of lead-acid cost of $0.25/wH
Thanks for sharing, though you might want to verify your calculations. Note the difference between Wh and kWh, and battery capacity in kWh versus energy withdrawn over the lifetime of a battery in kWh.
Always good to have critical viewers though! Good luck, Jesse.
2 weeks ago, I bought 4x LiFePO4 200 Ah cells for $365 USD total to replace 2x 210 Ah 6V FLA's that I bought for $230 one year ago. I'm pretty sure the prices were higher last year for LiFePO4, but I can't remember for sure. I'm doing this purely for space reasons: You cannot put 210 Ah 12V of lead under one car seat :)
Is your 7% figure per year price drop in lithium batteries accurate? I don't know the proper comparison points, but it seems wildly pessimistic to me.
This video is coming up on 4 years old, and by my calculations LiFePO4 is now about $0.25/wh or less, or 1/4 of the video mentioned price. That would be an annual decline of 36%. For example, a $300/1280wh 12v100ah battery is $0.24/wh, but increasingly available for $200 or $0.16/wh; or a $1300/5120wh 48(actually 51.2)v100ah server rack battery comes out to $0.254/wh and cheaper rack batteries are available; or raw cells of 3.2v280ah are $100/896wh or $0.112/wh. Those prices often include shipping but may require buying multiple. On the other hand, it appears lead acid has increased by 50% to 100% since the video was published, accompanied by a similar increase in shipping costs (which are always significantly higher than the much lighter LiFePO4).
My nearly 10 year experience with 20 raw LiFePO4 cells (Sinopoly 100ah in black plastic) has been very good (assembled into nominally 48v and 12v packs). Performance was much better than the 6v golf car batteries they replaced, even considering the lead acid started with 2x the nominal capacity. At the time they did cost me 2x what a new set of golf car batteries would have cost, but were "sealed" for no maintenance and promised considerably longer life. Both have been true.
Thanks for your feedback Sylvan! Yes, the values are accurate. Please note that this video covers 'drop in' replacement LiFePO4 only. If you were to compare individual LiFePO4 cells, prices would be a lot lower. Thanks!
In 2024 LiFePo4 prices got that cheap that they are comparable to AGM, especially as they are VAT free in some EU countries due to solar engagement of goverments.
In Australia I can’t get a flooded lead acid to last any more than 3 years
But interesting on your theories
I just built 2x16S48 volt packs and hoping to get 7 years service from them but good luck to every one and stay safe !
Got to keep them cool and get enough batteries that the depth of discharge is shallow across all batteries.
cheers for your reply! The main point i missed in my comment was the quality of the batteries i have used
reminiscing on the past I am sure they were cheap rubbish dressed up. Thanks for all your very good information as usual. informative and exciting to view! thank you for your time!
Excellent video, as always! I do have one question. How would a Lead Crystal battery compare here? Is it an alternative to traditional AGM/GEL batteries? And can it be charged with normal 3 step chargers, I does look as if it has a somewhat different charge profile but it also seems to be a better performing battery, if it is used correctly. Would be interesting to see a video about this topic. Thanks!
Hello MJ, it is good to hear from you. You have a valid and excellent question: You are also not the first one to ask about lead crystal batteries, so this means it is time for a dedicated video. I will add it to the list! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Thanks! Will be looking forward to watching it!
Thank you. helps me make my choice!
Thank you for you message Gary, I am glad to hear the video helped you in your decision making process. You make me curious now: Which battery type of battery are you going for, and based on which arguments? Thanks, Jesse
damn didnt know it was that expensive, 0.3-0.4usd per kWh for LiFePO4. That's more than most people pay over the world for grid power.
Ahhh, yes, but that's initial cost. You have to multiply it by number of cycles.
Hi Jesse, interesting video. Only thing that bothers me is this:
You compare life cycle when charging/discharging every day.
Thats not real world. And gives a completely wrong image.
When you for example would charge/disch once a week
Then lead acid would be dead after 8 years, but Lifepo4 would run happily for many many years.
Also when Not using a lead acid battery for say 4 months, you can usually throw them away., kaput.
Lifepo4 battery's don't care, and stay happy uncharted for months. When you take is in consideration lead acid is very expensive and heavy.
I have a camper an and replace my lead battery's 3x 90Ah approx 100kg for Lifepo4 2x 150 Ah approx 30 kg.
And when I'm not using the camper, the battery's don't die on me. Groetjes, Rijk Almere
Thank you for your message RitchyCamaro, it is good to hear that the video invoked your your critical thinking: I understand your perspective and I agree with you that Lithium batteries have several excellent performance characteristics unique to their chemistry. As you mentioned, this video describes the scenario of stationary, regularly cycled batteries, as opposed to your camper application. I am glad to hear your enjoy your batteries!
All the best,
Jesse
Can you do the same calculations with a (IFLA) forklift battery?.... it is probably half the price of regular FLA... capacity is given at C/6, not C/20...capacity @ C/6 x 1.57 = capacity at C/20.. and discharge at 80%, can last 20 years,
Hey Alain! Thanks, that is a great suggestion. If you have a brand & model in mind, I can include this in the next video. Thanks, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution GB battery- 12-125-15...24 volt 875 AH @C/6 = 1300 AH @C/20...7 year warranty...1695 lbs..$4444.00
Thanks for the information!
Could you please do a video on the best battery for the application.
Off grid seasonal
Off grid full time
grid back up 10-20 cycles per year
grid back up 20-100 cycles per year
grid back up 365 cycles per year
You are welcome Clay, thanks for your message. An excellent suggestion by the way: I will share a dedicated video on this. All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Thanks again. I really appreciate your videos. I have been installing solar PV for a few years now. Your videos are top notch, a big help to all who want unbiased information.
Thank you for another great video Jesse. I've been doing my homework on lithium battery cost/benefit and it seems that the capital cost is now dropping faster than 7% p/year. DIY Solar with Will Prowes recently did a bench test of BigBattery .com 12 and 24-volt Powerblock batteries and revealed a cost of $0,45 and $0,35 p/watt hour (USD). It's remarkable how competition for this space seems to be driving capital costs down so rapidly. Bedankt!
Hi Duncan! You are welcome, and thanks for your message. It is good to hear that you are accumulating knowledge [thumbs up]. Just as a note for your research: This video I shared describes the cost per kWh over the lifetime of a battery, which is different from the value which you often come across in other discussions, being the upfront purchase cost of a battery versus the storage capacity of the battery. Good luck and enjoy! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Hi Jesse! I am referring to your comment at 2:23 where you state the cost per usable watt hour is $1. Hence my comment about recent cost reductions to $0,35 and $0,35 USD per watt hour. Perhaps I misunderstood. Stay well. :-)
@@duncanjames914 Thanks for your feedback, I see what you are saying now. The values I am sharing are based on the following assumptions: New batteries / Lithium Iron Phosphate technology / adjusted to usable capacity. I trust this helps in your research. Enjoy!
If you need my personal advice, feel free to get in touch via the website. All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Thank you Jesse! Yes, the costs I mentioned are for the same technology but at 100% of capacity. I suppose we should divide those numbers by 0,8 in order to assess the usable cost per watt-hour. Thanks again.
Would u recomend any lithium if client require stable voltage, no maintenance
in door starage ,High Dept of discharge.
Hello Desmond, thank you for your question. Both Lithium and Lead Acid batteries have their own great features that come with the specific technology and battery design. The final choice for the right type of battery depends on various considerations, I would need additional information in order to give you a definite answer. You can contact me through www.solarsolution.co/services
I'd recommend LiFePo4, those are very good at maintaining stable voltage from 90% up to 15% (and u shouldn't discharge them more)
Some manufacturers even use a very low 50% REMAINING Capacity for their End-OF-Life
Which manufacturer are you referring to?
@@SolarSolution DEKA SOLAR Flooded Lead Acid ...
Upon satisfactory proof of claim, as determined solely by EPM, EPM will repair or, at its option, replace any defective battery. A defect in material or workmanship is defined as failure to reach at least => *50%* *50%*
Is the basic advantage to using a dc/dc charger having a ramped 3 cycle charge? The dc/dc charger can not make more energy than the alternator can produce, but does it change the current to higher amps and lower volts?
Thanks for your message and questions. I would like to draw your attention to the pinned comment at the top of this section. All the best, Jesse.
Interesting video but I have a couple of questions. What happens to different battery types at end of life? Which are easier to deal with & recycle? Will Super & ultra capacitors enhance or eventually replace other energy storage systems?
One thing this video left out is that Lead Acid batteries are almost all recycled already at least once. Lead Acid batteries are 100% recyclable and are cheaper for manufacturers to send them to a recycling facility and then get the raw recycled materials back and build a new battery from, rather than purchasing the materials new. Lithium batteries are a lot more difficult and expensive to recycle, and there are fewer places to take them to for recycling. All lead acid batteries have a $10 to $100 "core" charge on them since they are so easy and cheap to recycle into a new battery, and anywhere that sells lead acid batteries accepts them for recycling when they reach end of life.
@@johnbrizendine4425 thanks its an interesting reason to use them, what I find hard is how do you compare storage capacity between battery types 🤔
@@iantheinventor8151 You have to test them, most of them lie about the storage, or give an unrealistic representation. That's something I have struggled with a LOT. You have to read the fine print of the method they used to determine the capacity of each one.
Thanks for the information.
I found out about your work from Jason from Primal Outdoors or from his new TH-cam channel.
Thanks Benny, it's good to hear you liked it.
Thank you
You're welcome
With updated prices, I get LiFePO4 is 7X cheaper ($/Kwh-cycle) over battery life than deep cycle lead acid with LiFePO4 50%DOD and deep cycle Pb 30%DOD.
7 times cheaper is a lot.. for the same capacity? And for what purpose you use?
As unbiased as you can get. Great video
I appreciate that!
$1 per wh seems very high, whereas I've heard of nmc lithium batteries for less than $200 per kwh...and Tesla powerwall is ~$520 per kwh. What's driving your cost estimates? Thanks!
Hello Emory, thanks for your message and your question. The input data for the calculations are real-life figures from the industry. Does this answer your question? All the best, Jesse.
he takes into account usable kwh, not the full discharge capacity, so that adds 25% to the purchase cost.
and he looks at lipo batts with high warranty standards. Tesla powerwall is also subsidized; used to grab marketshare, or piggy-backed onto a tesla solar tile roof.
Gyll 5.1kW at $1499. $0.2-$0.4 becomes $0.0735-$0.146… thus cheaper than lead acid over lifetime. When you compare all other features, anyone purchasing lead acid should be kicking themselves.
If you are willing to DIY a LiFePO4 battery, it can be competitive. I purchased raw LiFePO4 cells for $1420, shipping included to build a 25.6V, 202AH nominal pack, or around 5 kWh. I also had to purchase a BMS, some wire and connectors. All told, I spent no more than $1700. That is about 34 cents per watt-hour, and I know there are places out there to get the raw cells for less if you're willing to wait 2+ months for shipping.
Thank you for your feedback Andrew. Well done, I am sure you enjoyed that project! Please note that in this video I focus on the cumulative energy discharge over the lifetime of a battery [in kWh] in order to make an apple-to-apple comparison, whereas the value you are referring to is the capacity of the battery [in kWh as well]. I hope this helps, enjoy your Lithium battery bank! All the best, Jesse.
$1/KWH for LiFePO ? No way. I'm paying $0.35 /KWH (at 80% usage) for 48V 28AH ($381 each, including shipping and charger) and that's not even a very good deal. Note also that going to 80% discharge, these batteries average 51.5V, not 48V, so the actual cost of my slightly-over-priced batteries is actually $0.33, and I have tested the capacity, which is as claimed. I also buy 12V 35AH AGM (lead-acid) at $60 including shipping, but the LiFePOs are more efficient at fast discharge.
Thank you for your feedback PattyDung: I am happy to hear you are content with your Lithium batteries, and I am sure you will for many years to come! As for your price references: This has been discussed in previous comments in this thread. All the best, Jesse.
Whats a Betry?
It is a compact-size battery
I would like to know how to size solar panels, inverters, and batteries in a way so they all work well together. I don't want to waste money on oversizing one set of components.
Hello Justin, thanks for you message. I think you have a very valid question here, and I haven't shared a video on it yet. I will start working on the video and share it with you when it's ready. Thanks Justin! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution Awesome. Thank you. That video will help tons of people.
@@justinfranks8222 amazing, definitely will
This vid may be outdated since lithium much cheaper today
Interesting. An engineer who posts on You Tube as well, knurlknar24, came to the same conclusion. Hard to argue with the science. I am still using AGM's but have been seriously considering going to Lithium Iron Phosphate. This has me pausing right now. One thing I don't like about the lead acid battery is that one really should only use 50% DOD for longevity of the battery and Lithium and I can supposedly take it down to around 10% without harm. That means a LOT less battery pack in terms of size and weight.
Thanks for your feedback John. I understand the pro's and con's you are considering, good luck with making the final decision! All the best, Jesse.
Foam batteries (firefly) a vid on this would help
An excellent suggestion, thank you. I will make a separate video on this, and let you know once it is online. All the best, Jesse.
Lifepo4 batteries have come down in price a lot.. If you know where to buy, not retail then they can even be cheaper that lead acid
Where to buy?
eBay
Dekuji , super info
Nemáš zač, it is good to hear you are enjoying the videos on this channel.
What about the nasty Peukert Effect in Lead Acid Batteries?
Having huge load spikes like electric kitchen appliances is not a rare circumstance.
The Peukert effect is not applicable in LiFePo4 as it is compensated by the self-heating -> capacity increase effect.
It should be part of the comparison to make it an apple to apple one let alone the nasty consequences for lead-acid batteries when staying in a 50% SoC for several days during non-laboratory real-world circumstances.
For fixed installations, it's still hard to beat lead acid. Very durable especially to temperature extremes, and dead cheap. Not great for weight or power density but with fixed sites you usually don't care. For vehicles the power density of lithium makes more sense.
Sound like you have some prior experience! Great summary, thanks. All the best, Jesse.
this was a surprice to me .... i thought the lithium batteries had become cheaper than lead acid by now
Hi Jon! Haha you are not the only one. I honestly wish LiFePO4 would be cost competitive already, since their technical performance is quite amazing. We shall see what the future will bring! All the best, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution I noticed that you stick to 80% on lithium batteries as 'end of lifetime' to compare apples to apples .... but that's still 60% usable energy compare to 50% in a brand new lead acid .... so your analyse is not telling the true value.
Tesla Model 3 battery brick on ebay = $2000 / 18 kWh = $111/kWh / 3500 cycles = $0.03 / kWh. Lead is dead.
Thanks for your feedback @Antronx007
It's cheap for a reason. Either it's used or rebuilt by some drunk neckbeard in a shed
Those are li-ion cells, although good ones. They claim to be good for 1000-1500 cycles. Lifepo4 is the chemistry that can go 2000-3500 cycles.
Just one more point. Lithium is much lighter so it's great for electric cars and planes.
Great point!
Did you consider risk into the equation? If 1 time the FLA battery is drawn down past 50% or down to 0% which is likely in off grid applications the batteries are ruined. Risk is not free or insurance wouldn't cost anything. LifePo4 has "supposedly" no degradation if drawn down fully. If you are off grid and have the chance of drawing down your bank to 0 or close to 0 then you should NEVER buy FLA batteries. Example, customers well pump faulted and ran overnight. Batteries drew down to Zero state of charge. Her 1 year old $8K AGM battery bank was ruined.
Super video, thanks
Thanks for your message Peter, I am glad you enjoyed the video! All the best, Jesse.
One big disadvantage of LA batteries that you did not mention is that they are hard to charge! If you start with a fixed amount of power to charge the batteries with, lithium will absorb & store much more of that power for later use than LA. Trying to charge LA batteries from about 70 to 100% requires a lot of energy, not very efficient in that range. Typical sealed LA batteries are only good for about 3 years. So I guess you are comparing lithium with flooded LA batteries. Flooded batteries are hazardous because they contain acid and vent explosive H gas. You also have to add water all the time, maintenance is painful.
Thanks for your feedback and for sharing your thoughts Greg. Your are spot on regarding the charging efficiencies differences between Lithium and Lead Acid due to the absorption stages. While this video has a primary focus on the price paid per discharged kWh over the lifetime of the battery, the following video explains the technical pros and cons of Lead Acid vs LiFePO4. Enjoy!
@@SolarSolution love this channel Lead is not DEAD I'll bet alot of fla batt haters have huge amp hours not realizing you should at least double your solar intake for said amp hour bank
@@alonzodesantis6989 Thanks for your message Alonzo, it is good to hear you enjoy the content. And I agree with you, a lot of off grid systems have undersized their solar array. Sound like YOU probably didn't!
All the best, Jesse.
2 years ago
Lithium burns 💥 I have skin grafts already.
So AMG lead acid it is.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that Dan, I hope it healed allright.
@@SolarSolution skin grafts to 40% of my body it was burning metal fire. If you live with your battery then it's probably not worth using lithium
Wow Dan, 40%!!! I'm glad you survived at least. What kind of battery chemistry was the lithium battery?
@@SolarSolution It was actually a iron thermite fire that burnt me. But it's burning metal all the same. You can not put out a burning metal fire full stop no matter what you try. I'm not taking any chances. Why take the risk if you don't need to?
Lead acid will always be my only choice.
Thank you for sharing this Dan, I appreciate it. I think we often deal with quite risky materials on a daily basis, but don't realize it untill it goes terribly wrong. It makes me feel sick when I try to imagine what it must have been like for you... I am trying to understand what the source of the iron thermite fire was. A google search told me that it is often used for the following purposes, is this correct?
1. Welding and cutting metals
2. Metal casting and purification
3. Demolition and explosive ordnance disposal
4. Fireworks and pyrotechnics
5. Scientific research and experimentation
6. Military applications [incendiary devices]
I can totally relate to your preference for Flooded Lead Acid [FLA] battery technology, including the Absorbent Glass Mat [AGM] batteries. Each battery chemistry comes with their own pros and cons, and when it comes to material safety, FLA's have less cons IMO.
That being said, some of the fire risks of Lithium-based batteries have been substantially mitigated by the introduction of Lithium Iron Phosphate [LiFEPO4] batteries.
Thank you for sharing your concerns about the risks of lithium-based batteries Dan, I appreciate it, and I'm sure this could be helpfull for other viewers as well.
Jesse
I like how your cost per use conveniently doesn’t include maintenance, which is a big disadvantage for lead. You never talk about entertainment density or charge rates which make lead more difficult to build a system. also with Lithiums high usable energy capacity the 80% EoL standard isn’t apples to apples because a lithium battery would still have more usable energy at 60% EoL to a lead battery at 80% EoL.
Thanks for sharing your perspective William, I can imagine how you would see certain points differently. Jesse.
Lithium is way too expensive . I don't know how people can even buy those .
Lead is dead boss, sorry. Good try though.
Thanks Nathan! Care to explain why? Others might be interested in your arguments as well.
Depth of discharge is better, life cycles are better, warranties are better in spite of your claim, maintenance is next to none. The only downside is increased up front cost, but the advantages of spending a little more to get WAAAY better performance are worth it.
Interesting, thanks for sharing Nathan.
Lead is still king for a large 5min UPS as the cost is low and the required c rate is high and they are not been cycled. Other than that most usage scenarios where we care about cycles LFP kills lead. But to be fair if your in the Business lead pays the bills as you get more business more often. He has a point that warrenties on turn key solutions are tough for Joe average and are in the providers favor, not to mention there is alot of $$ margin in a packaged lithium solutions. At this point the 280a cell conservatively run is just great value. If you can keep your voltage between 3.5V and 3V ,c rate below .5 and temperature reasonable you have in theroy 20 odd years. He is a salesman.
Battle born 10 year warranty...
Yep, 10 years sounds good Brian!