It seems to me that one of the fundamental mis-steps in communication between different types of dog training is the conflation of the 𝘦𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘦𝘴𝘴 of a particular technique with the 𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘤𝘴 of that technique, and that conflation carries with it a personal emotional investment that can make critiques feel like either personal or systemic attacks. All four of the operant conditioning quadrants are effective, and this is simply an objective fact. That fact, however, doesn't address whether or not there is an ethical problem with some of them. "Balanced" training utilizes all four quadrants, while "positive" training only uses two (yes, the focus is on positive reinforcement, refusing access to a rewarding stimulus until the correct behavior is presented is negative punishment). Even if the two methodologies had identical rates of effective performance (they don't, methods that emphasize positive reinforcement as the primary tool showed both higher levels of learning speed and retention), the question still remains: If you can train a dog just as effectively 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 using aversives, is it morally a problem to do so? My personal answer to that is 'Yes', I don't think that it's ok to cause stress or discomfort to a dog without a compelling reason to do so. The dog training world has far, far too much ego attached directly to training method (as evidenced by the comment section of any dog training video that dares to critique a different method), and we should be spending more time looking at the data instead of doing things "because I've always done it this way, and it works fine." Some of the science I mentioned: Arhant C, Bubna-Littitz H, Bartels A, Futschik A, Troxler J. Behaviour of smaller and larger dogs: Effects of training methods, inconsistency of owner behaviour and level of engagement in activities with the dog. Appl Anim Behav Sci. 2010;123(3-4):131-142. Hiby EF, Rooney NJ, Bradshaw JWS. Dog training methods: their use, effectiveness and interaction with behaviour and welfare. Anim Welf. 2004;13(1):63-69. Rooney NJ, Cowan S. Training methods and owner-dog interactions: Links with dog behaviour and learning ability. Appl Anim Behav Sci. 2011;132(3-4):169-177.
"I don't think that it's ok to cause stress or discomfort to a dog without a compelling reason to do so." The most important part of this well written response. I agree with every point you make here when applied to a puppy but from my observations of Balanced trainers and some aversive methods they employ is usually an adult dog with aggressive and reactive behavior. I've attempted to use treats and happy vocal stimuli in those situations and what I learned from that experience is either the dog is not interested in the treats because they are laser focused on the object OR they think I am rewarding them for their potentially dangerous behavior, which is inadvertently training them to be aggressive. So the question begs... what would you as a purely positive trainer do in that situation?
(First, Thank you Zak George for your Videos, they where a tremendous help to me.) I mostly agree. But for my taste it is a little too theoretical. Yes in a perfect world there would be everything with „positive“ training. But i belive that there is right now a gap between this theoretical possibility to do it all positive and the praktikal appliance. I love how Mr. Gorge shows what is possible and gives so much faith in this method and encourages me to try and try to get it done positive. But i also see that there is a lot of skill involved to „read“ your dog and to know how to work on things. Not everyone is that skilled or can manage to get that skilled in time (before things go south). And you can worsen stuff with a positive approache done wrong. E.g. letting self reinforcment happen for unwanted behaivoirs by accident. That does not mean that with balanced, adversive or whatever you will try this wont happen, but also „positve“ can create problems (done wrong). And having for some situations a fallback with a balanced metheod can be more ethical correct, in my opinion, than having stress with and for the dog for months or more. And this is what is happening in cases. And than saying someone who uses any kind of correction is ethicaly misbehaving ist to crass to me. I dont think that dogs can‘t have a happy live with people who arn‘t the perfect dog trainers. And i don‘t belive that trainer who give people who are struggeling a balanced way out arn‘t ethicaly wrong either. Please don‘t missunderstand me, i absoluty advocate for the mildest possible approach. And i truly belive you should try your best to get done as much as possible as positive as possible. But you can‘t just ignore the skill oft he people. And i think this channel is a hughe step in enabaling people to do more the positve way. And i also belive that the more fundament you have with your dog in postive training the less „adversive“ will be „needed“ even by whose struggle in some areas with positive approaches. I think giving people the feeling what they do is ethically wrong, and/or that they are not good enough is fanning the flames between „balanced“ and „positive“.
@@rufflifecanineservices1585 That's the kind of situation where I think this conversation tends to live. Obviously every dog is different, and you have to train the dog in front of you, but generally speaking, at least in my case (I don't generally refer to myself as a 'positive' trainer, I usually use LIMA) I would back up the training and control the setting more until I hit a point where the dog 𝘪𝘴 interested, then work up from there. In my experience, the most common situation in which positive training "fails" is simply that the trainer isn't really willing to keep backing up until they find the spot where the dog is "at".
Only thing that helped my 120lb Cane Corso who became lease reactive toward dogs and people at the age of 4 only used positive only training on all my dogs but I ended up getting a herm sprenger prong and 180 saved my dog and only had to use it for a week and boom back to his old self ! Positive methods for 99% of training but when it comes to real aggression good luck
Totally agree I have three dogs two I only use positive only training , the third I use balanced training as she is a APBT and could defiantly do damage if not controlled appropriately she is actually very sweet and obedient BUT I am very aware of what she is and I am always in control of her ❤
Zak, you were my inspiration for training our Goldendoodle (Standard size 65 lbs so far) and I have to say he is at 10 months very well trained thanks to your videos. He was completely potty trained by 13 weeks with a total of 3 accidents since. He sits, he stays, he leaves it, he shakes, he hugs, he fetches, he sits for meals and does not go near his food until I say okay….now barking at people out our windows and in the backyard….lets just say we are working on it! :)
I found you 12 years ago. My aussie mix was just 10 weeks old. I changed my training method using exactly what you encouraged. My girl is now 12 years old. I can't even count how many times I have/had people compliment me and Gypsy on her behaviour and almost human like character. We have such a beautiful relationship. You made me see Gypsy as a companion. Gypsy is the best dog I have ever had and I know it's because of you. Thank you!
That's great to hear! I am determined to make our new Brittany the best dog I have ever had, and using these techniques has been incredibly effective. Even though she is only 8 weeks old and it may have been too soon to start, by the second day in her new home, she was already sitting and lying down. She is definitely a smart pup, but I attribute her progress to these loving techniques because they truly work!
As a vet I have to say I absolutely love the way you train and try to help pet owners understand why positive reinforcement is preferred. It’s not just about getting the behaviour you want, it’s about helping the dog really understand it and building a bond. I’ve referred several clients with their first puppies to watch your videos!
I'm so glad to hear that a vet is promoting positive conditioning. Are you a vet in the U.S.? If so, could you help me understand why vets here have rejected non-surgical options for neutering?
@@kmclare2 Well, in the UK and other countries, vets administer shots that curb testosterone and sterilize without surgery. Some only last 6 months so that owners can observe the effects before committing to neutering. In the U.S., we are required to neuter by surgery - vets here have refused to use these other options (presumably because they cost less).
I'm starting to suspect that the removal of key hormones (on top of the trauma of spay/neuter surgery) underpins a lot of dog behavioral issues. Understandably!
@@anonanonymous1970 part of the problem is the part about owners needing to pay close attention to signs if/when it wears off. Unfortunately many owners don't, and the concern with overpopulation mostly has to do with people not paying close enough attention to their dogs in the first place (hence accidental breedings). Also, if the concern is that not enough testosterone leads to health issues, then how is it any different if testosterone is chemically or surgically removed? Honestly, if the dog has behavioural issues related to testosterone (marking or territorial aggression), neutering surgically is best. I see A LOT of dogs that are neutered and many that aren't. Those with behavioural issues have more to do with not enough training, and almost nothing to do with the presence of testosterone, or lack thereof.
I have to admit , that watching you train and deal with a biting puppy helped me. I have had a few dogs over the years and training has changed so much. I have a 10 week old Mountain Labradoodle and we are in the height of biting and teething. I was going about it all wrong and was on the road to ruining my relationship with this pup. Within a day of doing more positive instead of corrective, he’s happier, I’m happier and we are getting to know each other. He’s calmer, I’m calmer and it’s made for an easier transition.
As a trainer myself I try to understand the techniques of multiple trainers. You are such a nice guy and always take the high road, which I respect. I said yesterday on Beckman's channel that if more people employed positive reinforcement training as a puppy less people would have to take their 3 year old out of control dogs to people like Joel (who I like and respect as well)
I love Joel, and Tom Davis. They are the people to go to when you have a dog with serious issues. Zak is the guy you go to when you are training a new puppy or some new behaviors. I also really like Stonie Dennis for positive reinforcement training. He had some good videos on puppy adventure training.
@@MrsFitzus I watch every trainer I come across to sharpen my skills and learn other's perspectives. Chris Perondi is amazing as well. I'll check out your suggestion...thanks!
@@MrsFitzus This idea that positive reinforcement doesn't work for dogs with serious issues is an odd one. Serious issues like aggression, reactivity, separation anxiety, etc are all caused by emotional problems, and as Zach explained in this video, aversive techniques have risks in making the underlying cause worse. Often we see learned helplessness where dogs are punished for expressing their fear or stress, sure the dog might appear better behaved, but their mental wellbeing has not improved. Positive reinforcement is not just for obedience training.
@@tonyveguilla8358 Do you happen to know if there's any way to tame down a prey drive? My dogs are jack Russell/chihuahua Cross and it's one area I am at a bit of a loss (I just keep them on their leash when there's rabbits around since they killed one last year) - they don't have this behaviour any other time and usually have great impulse control and recall. "Leave it" works for absolutely everything else, except a rabbit. I'm not one for giving up but I'm a bit stuck with how to tackle it. Any advice or recommended reading material/videos would be greatly appreciated. (They're 3-4kg and have more of a chihuahua build, even if I was happy for them to hunt rabbits, they'll wind up getting badly injured).
New puppy owner here so I’ve watched tons of videos and read tons of articles. I keep coming back to your way. I don’t want to hurt my dog to fix a behavior. I do need professional help to progress but I know what I’m looking for and it’s definitely positive reinforcement. Thank you Zac
This kind of explanation is really very helpful. I have both your books, but that's the way to teach us how to form the training sessions on every occasion and not just rely on what we have seen. Thank you very much. Keep up the good work.
Zak, I love how you actively work to avoid arguments about dog training methods, refusing to be drawn in to those types of conversations just to create controversy. Instead, you explain why your methods work for you and for the dogs. It's a pleasure to listen to you!
The only reason this guy has views is because he is starting a war between the lifelyhood of dogtrainers and himself as a TH-cam ENTERTAINER.. your just picking a side thats comfortable to you so you have at least one opinion...
@@Aswodel Wow...you heard something different than I did in the video so I guess you've picked something that is comfortable for *your* opinion. Whatever. I don't argue with people who exist in an alternate reality.
The unfortunate part of his video is that he continually insults balanced trainers by using “example of balance trading” that are completely and utterly ridiculous. No trainer would use an ecollar to correct a frightened dog. No trainer would use an ecollar to teach a place command. For that matter, ecollars don’t TEACH. He makes balanced trainers out to be sadistic people. On the contrary. They love dogs even more than PPTs. Please check out Ivan Balabanov. He’s a balanced trainer. Two time World Champion and 14 time National Champion. You can see and feel his love for his dogs.
@@k9trainergsd I agree 100% ! Even with a dog that isn't nervous/scared/skittish, I wouldn't use an E.Collar to try to "teach" anything.. Only to stop/correct a behavior if I can't get through to the dog with a regular lead or prong.. I've had dog's that wouldn't react the slightest to a prong.. they'd just pull harder.
@@mikefrost5481 To only use an ecollar to stop unwanted behaviours is a huge waste of a great tool. I very seldom use it to correct. I’m talking 1-2% of its use. I’m hoping people read this and do a lot of research on the use of ecollars.
Hey Zak, I'm a balanced trainer myself, and I think that you are making some very good points here: "Adressing the underlying emotional state" indeed is super-important. If not done, frustration can build up in the dog, and then be released elsewhere. This is an issue many people struggle with. And we want to always establish a trusting relationship first with the dog, to avoid this. You're such a cool guy, I think, Zak, always upbeat, positive and open for discussion, and learning from one another. Much appreciated!
Lol Zak is trying to politely call out his peers and just unintentionally smacked down the crazy flat earth community. Might want to proactively turn off your email for the next few months.
This progression is amazing! Excellent work. Thank you so much for creating a wonderful guide to bond with our best friends! I also appreciate the explanation of balanced training and the fact that everyone is different with their training methods.
Love this! Every time I've been frustrated or worried and tempted to go the correction route, I force myself to think of how I have set up the dog to fail. For example, my Great Pyrenees knows a recall cue, but he stopped responding from a distance. I thought about one of those vibration collars to nudge him, but then decided to go back several steps in training and reinforce more heavily from a shorter distance with less distractions. Now he's back to recalling from across a football field. Three rescue dogs in, all with their own reactivities, and I have yet to need anything but positive reinforcement. I go at their pace not mine, just like I do for my anxious human clients. It's on us to be creative and compassionate. No mammal learns better when they're worried that something bad will happen. It's like smacking your kid when they get a math problem wrong. They'll learn not to say the wrong thing, but they won't learn how to solve the problem.
Perhaps. But getting a maths problem wrong doesn't usually mean the child will run into the road and die. Or that the child will run over to another innocent child and maul it to death. But then, to counter my own argument, if you're a responsible owner you would know if your dog has aggression and you wouldn't let it off leash. But that doesn't change the running-into-the-road issue. 🤔
@inkwhiskers9948 lots of balanced trainers use that as an excuse for using e collars or prongs but it's really just lazy. As OP said, you have to go at the dog's pace and not hurry the training. You start with a long leash and when the dog has reliable recall with the long leash you go off leash in a fenced area, and only after that if the dog has a perfect recall 100% of the time that's when you can truly go off leash in parks and whatnot. If the dog struggles with the recall off leash you go back a few steps. There's no need for e-collars. There are a bunch of dogs that are trained using the positive reinforcement method that have perfect recall. If they can do it, so can you.
I'm so happy I came across your channel. We need MORE dog trainers online like you so we can drown out all the awful "trainers". I've seen so-called dog trainers hit dogs with rolled-up towels (looking at you, Jeff Gellman). Yesterday, I saw a "trainer" tell people to hit their dog with their open hand if that's what it takes. And people listen! And look up to these people. I truly believe a bunch of narcissists took to the internet because they saw an opportunity to feed their egos. There are so many dogs out there getting abused because these people are manipulative and convincing. It breaks my heart that social media lifts these people up and gives them a platform.
End of the day if a punishment doesn’t resolve the emotions that led to an undesired behaviour then it is just abuse. Plus punishment to a dog doesn’t have to seem like punishment if it stops an undesired behaviour. I don’t understand why people have to see punishment as a means of force.
I think sometimes people who inappropriately used e-collars give the e-collar a bad name when you have large aggressive dogs you do not have the time to risk damage to the dog or a human when it is much safer to you he collar training that is not damaging to the dog itself
You have come so far with little Biscuits!!!! Incredible job with her and I loveee your mindset too, your videos are really informative and useful, I have been watching you for years. 🥰🥰🥰💗💗💗💗
Zak, I have been using your tips and training methods, and they have been wonderful! The word "yes!" makes my dog so happy, and he realizes when he is doing something good without the need of a clicker. I think you are an amazing trainer, and the proof is in what you have accomplished. I am a teacher, and we teacher have been told to set our students up for success by making the rules very clear on the very first day of school. If they know what is expected of them, they can do well. That's why I really respect you as a trainer. YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB, ZAK! Look at the thousands of people who are following you. Think about this... If you took an exam (in school) that had a thousand or more questions on it and you only miss five or ten questions, you still would have an A+ on that exam! Stay true to your methods. You are changing the lives of thousands of dogs! Thank you for all you do!
Not sure if you’ve ever tried this or your thoughts on this, but one of the easiest ways to teach a dog not to run out of the crate is by using the crate door as your tool!! Gently and slowly open the door, dog decides to try and run, gently and slowly close the door. Repeat until dog offers a sit or down on their own and then looks to you for guidance. Once they are getting the idea, you can add a “wait” command or “stay” if you desire. THEN give them an “ok” command to come out only when they have offered the sit or down on their own and give you eye contact as if asking “am I ok to come out now?” Works wonders and is virtually harmless!
I started watching your videos when I was thinking of adopting a dog. On my bucket list: Train a dog. It's still on the bucket list. Two things happened. I found that my local rescue center has a lot of cats for adoption and extremely few dogs. And, around that time I discovered that you can train cats. Mind blown. Different than dogs, but many overlapping techniques and philosophies. I continue watching Zak George videos because they're interesting (taking a completely untrained dog, showing both successes and failures--very engaging) and even useful to training my adopted cat. My kitty doesn't really get "no." And some of the things I've used "no" with because I haven't figured out ways to turn them into a successful "yes" have become "yes" in his mind because he gets a reaction out of me. Of course, I just don't have it in me to inflict pain with my "no," so my "no" isn't really a clear "no" I suppose. Though I didn't train him overtly, most recently he seems to have understood that tapping me on the face gets him what he wants much quicker than biting (play biting, of course, but still painful for me). I didn't directly teach him that. He seems to initiate his own training sometimes! But the directly teaching him tricks (as well as a few useful things like "wait" and "look at me") is so fun, and he often requests training (sometimes by doing a trick without my prompting at all) and purrs his way through it. Thank you for your teaching--the how-to's and the philosophy behind them! They work with my cat too!
I love that you opened up this conversation, but I especially love how respectfully, thoughtfully, logically, and openly you've done so. You've been careful to not attack anyone and avoid hurt feelings (which is one of the first places where conversation on this topic can break down - people feeling they're being attacked for their choices and understanding in dog training, which stops them from hearing what is being said). I also adore that you're not going by anecdote, but by what our current best scientific understanding says (it's so easy for us as humans to completely reject current scientific, procedural conclusions for anecdote), and warning that intuition isn't always right, or doesn't always manage to correctly identify what's going on (eg, the "alpha" approach - feels intuitive maybe to some people: the idea that our world works by people (and by extension our dogs or other pets, or maybe our children) just wanting to "be in charge" or "test us," so we have to establish authority, when the reality is that we need to establish trust and boundaries - misbehaving isn't a dog trying to "be in charge," it's just the dog doing something that seems stimulating or rewarding, and not knowing our reasoning for wanting it to do something else). So. Good. I love objective, thoughtful, logical approaches to understanding our world, and (beyond your helpful insights, demonstrations, advice, and knowledge) that's what ultimately keeps me coming back to your channel.
Zak I’d like to thank you for your videos and what they’ve done for me and my puppy! I got a Boxer/Pit mix and even though this is truly my first time taking care of a puppy without anyones help, your videos have helped when it comes to sitting, speaking, potty training and walking! I thank you very much for all the videos you’ve put out and wish you the best!
6:45 that's not balanced training though. it's not disputed that positive reinforcement is best for teaching dogs behaviors. Balanced training is for correcting the wrong choice a dog makes with a behavior they already know. You can teach a dog with treats to come but as soon as something more interesting catches their attention they won't care about the treat. there needs to be a consequence or you won't have reliability. 10:50 that's not how e collar training works at all. Before you ever put an e collar on a dog You first have to teach the dog the behavior and queue of going to a 'place'. Balanced training is still positive reinforcement. Once the dog fully understands the command you introduce the stimulation at the level of barely registering the feeling. The dog already knows the command, and knows how to shut off the stimulation immediately. I don't know a single trainer who just shocks a dog until they happen to touch the place, that's not realistic at all. Everything you've demonstrated in this video are the same methods used by balanced trainers. The difference is a balanced trainer then works on getting reliability. 20:17 I don't know of any balanced trainers who would correct a fearful puppy. It sort of just seems like you have a huge misconception on what balanced training actually is. Bottom line is all behaviors are taught with positive reinforcement. All behaviors must be practiced in several different environments until the dog fully understands what it is you want and you have good communication. The balanced side of things comes about when the dog actively CHOOSES not to do what you ask because they don't feel like it, Not because they are confused or scared. A tiny bit of aversion means complete freedom for balance trained dogs.
"When a dog actively CHOOSES not to do something because they don't feel like it" - Dogs, wont respond to something asked of them for many reasons. Not just because they don't feel like it. Are they tired, hungry, bored, distracted, have to toilet, have they learned that behavior in that context? Dogs are sentient beings with thought processes. Not something to "command" around. The goal is to always set the animal up for success. When humans feel the need for punishment to happen, it is usually the failure of the set up and not of the animal. One of your first mentions was about recall. If there is always a punisher for not coming back, 1) they shouldn't be in a situation if you know their recall isn't solid and 2) a recall should NEVER be punished as that is a life saving behavior. Why would an animal want to come to you when they had been punished before for not coming? Recall is a behavior that needs a ton of positive rehearsal with rewards because coming when called is so important. I train check-ins without being asked and will train recalls but want them to be used when necessary. I'm going on a tangent about recalls so I'll stop there... haha but the point being, tools shouldn't need to be used if the training before is solid. As you said, Balanced trains the behavior first before tools, then why would tools be needed if the behavior is trained?
@@JurassicWhitney so your saying a dog should ignore a recall if it's hungry? Bored? Tired? A dog actively chooses to ignore a recall(assuming they understand and have already been trained) because there is something more interesting to them. Maybe it's a scent. Maybe it's a rabbit, maybe it's another dog. You can train a recall with treats and get a dog that listens 90% of the time but that one time they decide they'd rather do something else is the time you NEED them to listen. yes, in training you always set a dog up for success, but what a balanced trainer does after successfully teaching a dog a behavior through positive reinforcement, is ensure 99.9% reliability with that command. And because of that reliability the dog has 100% freedom to go be a dog. so while a positive trainer can train a recall, they will never be able to truly trust their dog off a leash around every possible distraction. As I've mentioned before the method for training dogs in positive only and balanced is exactly the same; you teach a dog through positive reinforcement and repetition. Where balanced training differs is ensuring reliability after the hard work is done.
@@JurassicWhitney also worth noting not all dogs are the same. I'm sure someone could train their border collie a reliable recall with treats only and never have to introduce a punishment. good luck using that method with a husky! 😂 Not all training works the same for certain dogs. some dogs are soft, some dogs are hard. It's a case by case basis. But this is Also why you see so many positive only trainers telling people they should put their stubborn/reactive/aggressive dog down because they don't know how to handle them. Give that same "aggressive" dog to a balanced trainer and they'll have it fixed in a hour.
Zak!! I can’t thank you enough. Because of you I have a fairly well trained dog. Redirection. Positive reinforcement. Clicker training. Sit spin shake. Touch. I seriously can’t thank you enough. Your book helped me so much to raise a puppy and your videos are so good it’s almost like having you with me each step of the way. I’m so thankful for your ways of teaching. The way you explain things make so much sense it bewilders me that some people aren’t following your dog training revolution. If I ever get the chance to meet you, a big hand shake and a very grateful smile will be given to you. Thank you again for everything. I’m happy and proud to tell people about you when they ask what have I done yo get my puppy to spin. Again. Thank you thank you. You are truly a special person.
Here’s my take: I believe positive reinforcement should be used for most dogs, almost all of the time. Say, teaching sit, down, rollover, etc. along with desensitization, it’s completely unnecessary to use any “unpleasant” methods. That also goes for anxious and fear reactive dogs who really just need to build their confidence and where corrections would generally only delay that. Where I think purely positive methods often stop being effective is in super-confident dogs who lack impulse control and/or ignore rewards and redirection. (Dominance also falls under this category but I believe it is relatively uncommon as a problem) And I say, even with those dogs, always try positive methods first, only if it shows no improvement would you move to very mild corrections. At the end of the day, you never want a dog to act out of fear.
I work with a lot of confident high energy dogs, I think the problems comes down to not setting them for success in training. Especially if we are not confident in our training and dog handling skills, we tend to want to take our time and hesitate more, where as these dogs won't always wait around. I've taught many confident dogs impulse control - but we dont want to complete supress their fun, its important to give them time to express themselves. I find training with play works fantastic for these dogs.
This is exactly what "balanced dog training" is, I think... I've adopted a dog from a shelter and positive reinforcement only worked with basic obedience, but had no effect on the leash pulling and reactiveness. Just giving very tiny 'corrections', definitely not janking the leash, helped him understand what pressure on the leash means. Its all about what helps your dog understand what you are communicating. This is just from my experience. Positive only for 6 months didn't have any effect, 'balanced' training helped my boy feel more confident in 2 months. He now knows that I got his back and he can rely on me to help him in situations he has a harder time with... As long as the dogs feel happy, anyone should use what works!
Balanced trainers use positive reinforcement too and I feel like people forget this! We aren’t those alpha people who haven’t matured past the 1900’s way of dog training, we use positive reinforcement too! We use all 4 of the quadrant
Agree 100% Spectral, I have a dog that is hyper aware and lacks impulse control, the minute I run out of treats his head starts sweeping the rest of the world for his next dopamine hit; treats only serve to enforce overstimulation with him. Since my dog is 150 lbs and still growing I can't wait another year or more to see if using only positive reinforcement ends up working out, he must be corrected for improper behavior and understand that it will not be tolerated. Does that mean that I have to shock and beat him? No, absolutely not, but poor behavior is met with a pop on the leash and direction to do the correct thing.
I agree. I haven’t seen much of this channel, but I would love to see him adopt a dog that’s been sitting at a shelter for 2 years and is completely out of control, aggressive and fearful, to see how he would handle that.
Hey! Lucy (gsd rescue) and I have been following along and enjoying your journey with Biscuits. Thank you for your continued patience…. With dogs AND people 😊. I admit…. There are times when Lucy tries mine. However, I know that positive training and love ALWAYS wins out in the long run. ( Btw- I am a 3rd grade teacher…. Same is true for kids… they’ll try you. But love, compassion, and positive reinforcement ALWAYS works in the long run…. Treats work too 😋).
For anyone seeking to use an e-collar, understand it is an advanced and late stage training tool. Your dog should be able to successfully and reliably complete basic commands like sit, stay, come when called, wait, leave it, and place prior to ever using an e-collar. If your dog can not do these tasks, do not jump into training with an e-collar and DO NOT TRAIN WITH AN E-COLLAR WITHOUT THE SUPERVISION OF A PROFESSIONAL. Furthermore, vet that professional. They should be able to provide you with clients who can give feedback about their training, them as a person, and the trainer should be able to provide their credited credentials to you as well as testimonials from previous clients you can contact. If they can't provide this information or are reluctant and/or can't produce it in a speedy fashion, whether they be balanced or positive, DO NOT trust them with your dog. *puts soap box away*
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet some of them just vibrate or make a quiet noise to que them to do something(such as containing them in an invisible fence, or cuing them to come), not all e collars are shock collars, nor are all of them painfull or upsetting for a dog. I do agree that shock collars shouldn't be used though.
Silly advice. There us no such thig as a "professional" in dog training because dog training is not a professional field. It requires no training or education. So, what "credentials" is a dog trainer supposed to provide? All you need is a functional brain and an ability to follow instructions and watch a few videos on how to use an e-collar from experienced trainers. An e-collar is not a "late stage training tool" because it should not be used in teaching a dog commands. Teaching sit, stay, come, and so on is independent from using an e-collar because an e-collar should be used to prevent a behavior, not to teach a behavior.
Great video. Most people like to criticize or mock positive reinforcement trainers, but the results are proof that it works. Keep up the good work Zak, you're a great example to those following you.
Thw reason people mock them is videos like this bashing other styles of training. I utilize psoriasis reinforces in my training techniques, and the e collar is not ever used as a punishment with my dogs, neither the prong. Many of my client dogs don't ever get up to thst point and stay on a martingale or use just a harness or flat collar with rewards. Dogs don't learn one size fits all, just like there's different types of teachers for kids. If a dog is a danger and trying to bite people or dogs to a certain extreme, yes, i will implement the balanced out fair correction and then follow that up with intense reward. Dogs have to learn to handle discomfort, I wish I could say otherwise, but again, same for humans. It's time we start setting our dogs up for success in the world instead of being shocked when the dog bites someone with the handlers back turned.
People only mock PURELY positive reinforcement trainers. I'm not sure that anyone with a dog would disagree that positive reinforcement can be useful. HOWEVER, does anyone really know how to fix an aggressive dog with purely treats and affection? No. Not to my knowledge.
Zack even calls himself a trainer while not working with other people and their dogs. This is just a marketing guy trying to convince people of some sort of ultimate right and wrong. Maybe he thinks he's jezus. And meanwhile real dog trainers lose their jobs.
Your training methods always seem to come back to “good parenting” to me. You don’t want your dog to be scared, or stressed, or worried as they learn. You want your dog to be happy, and calm, and engaged, and excited to learn new things. The bond that’s created by engaging with your dog in such a positive way is remarkable. I found it hard not to say “no” in the beginning but truly found that finding a reason to say “yes” made my dogs learn faster. And they’re so much happier. My brother and sister-in-law thought they had a rather stupid dog, and one who was too obstinate to learn (their attitude pissed me off). I returned to them a very smart dog who loved “leave it, watch me, and wait” and her sister who had become far more engaged and less anxious through her own training sessions. They didn’t have a comment. I think this may be the crux of some of the frustration or anger towards positive training, are people who don’t understand it fully or who don’t want to listen or learn about it. My brother and sister-in-law’s dogs were objectively happier, less anxious, and better behaved. They also formed a much deeper bond with me which I loved. I hope more people can see that it’s not about trying to be right or wrong it’s genuinely about what’s best for you and your dogs.
If that is truly what you believe, that it's about what's best for the dog, then as a balanced trainer I stand by you 100%. At least it seems we can unite over this one ideal!
The goal of balanced training is not to cause fear, but to give the dog direction. Watch Tom Davis. He does great videos and explains this. The channel is upstate canine academy. If your dog is aggressively barking, giving a pop on a gentle leader or slip or prong, it doesn’t hurt them and doesn’t teach them to fear u. It’s just a quick, “cut it out”. It’s effective and completely appropriate for the situation. They need to know certain behavior r unacceptable.
@@inkwhiskers9948Nah. This may work for “easy” dogs, but I can’t see a high drive dominant dog be trained successfully with sticky positive reinforcement alone.
@@vanessamcgrew4486 We should train the dog in front of us, and change methods based on that, not on what the public thinks of us or what our egos tell us. I personally see no need to cut aversives out of training altogether. It's natural and not unethical (used correctly). But if the dog in front of me responds better to positive only, I'll do that.
@@inkwhiskers9948 the issue I have is when positive reinforcement alone does NOT work. And because of people being mislead into thinking anything more is abusive or bad training, they r never able to train their dog and that can be dangerous.
I think the problem with this argument is the misrepresentation of what balanced dog training is. A good balnced dog trainer is not yanking the dog around and saying "you'll do what I say or else". They're telling a dog "hey, I need you to pay attention and follow my lead because that's what's best for you". They use tools in order to communicate effectively with a dog. They do not promote abusing a dog. We either grow or break under pressure. A good dog trainer knows when pressure is good and healthy and when it is not. It's easy to attack an entire philosophy of dog training when you set up a strawman to throw punches at.
The problem might be that all we see on social media is so-called "balanced trainers" using P+ all the damn time. They will say things like "Im using a harmless tool to lead the dog" but the reality is you're strangling the dog everytime he/she pulls 🤦♀️ what they do is far more relevant than what they say, ultimately, and just because you use nice words to describe a technique doesnt mean it isnt abusive to use it systematically
@@melissa2500 do you know that a dog hitting the end of the leash forcefully on a flat collar, or even pulling on a flat collar can collapse a trachea? A tool used correctly like a prong or e collar to communicate to the dog not to pull before it gets to the point of injury is safer then dragging it around “force free” with a flat collar? Also show dogs are shown on slip leads which in your theory is an aversive abusive tool
@@raylee7566 any type of collar will inevitably strangle your dog. Any. Flat vs prong vs whatever. Where I live, NONE of these are even LEGAL for dogs over 20kg. And obviously, I'm against "hitting the end of the leash" no matter which tool you are using. I trained my 11mo aussie puppy not to pull with directions and rewards. I use a harness for safety, but ideally I never pull on it on purpose. It works. One of my best friends is a dog trainer and only uses this type of method as well, and it works every damn time. There is no logical or ethical reasons to cause willingly discomfort to dog, especially puppies, when it's absolutely not necessary. Especially before trying anything else. Dm me if you want proof/videos/tutorials, ill be more than happy to help people stop strangling their dogs for "training". Insta: @murphy.et.ses.amis
What happens when the reinforcement of treats, toys or a kind voice isn’t as rewarding to the dog as barking and lunging at other dogs and people? This is where positive reinforcement falls short. Literally didn’t matter how many treats I give my dog if I didn’t sternly sit him down on his ass every now and again to tell him what’s up, he would have no reason to listen to me.
I truly appreciate that you clarified your position on training. This should be a wholesome debate between the variety of trainers out there. Personally, balanced-training has been most effective for me (because of the time it takes is much shorter than positive-reinforcement). Naive dogs receive positive-reinforcement (for my company), and dogs that are more entrained in bad behavior will receive negative-reinforcement. Thank you for helping the community, with such immense patience. I know I have not always supported you, but your perseverance is a blessing.
Really good video. Thank you for addressing aversive, punishment based training and the fallout that can damage our relationship with our dogs. Positive, reward based training is the way to ensure a happy dog and trusting relationship.
Hi Zak, I just discovered your videos and even though I've raised and trained 4 dogs in my life, I am so glad to learn new, better ways of doing things. Your positive, very empathic and attuned approach to teaching and training dogs really resonates with me and makes so much sense. Thank you for getting your wonderful philosophy out there!
A specifically for the place command I have never seen an e-collar trainer train a dog with an e-collar to teach the actual place commands the dog is taught using positive reinforcement then once the place command has been taught body collar is used to do the place command from a distance I've never heard of a person using an e-collar to teach the place command itself
We are in the UK and all the training I have encountered and done and doing is positive and reward based . I started my training journey with a beautiful black gsd girl, puppy training , agility, flyball ( we did not like that). I now have 4 chihuahua dogs, 3 out of 1 , very reactive, but I am having suddenly great success with training, all of them are doing Agility, which is great for bonding , fun , and hanging out with other dogs in a controlled civilised environment. Recall is the most important thing with my chis as they think they are lions and will run towards strangers and dogs, which is unacceptable,I train all the time, especially during our daily walks and hey presto they are coming back to me 99 per cent immediately. Zak your word Yes is another help , it means treats and reinforces what We want . Also, what I like is , you teach for us humans to have patience, let them take in their environment and experience , without pouncing on the dog to immediately control
@@justagirlandherdogs615 Exactly! All the balanced trainers I know don't shock and yank their dogs. Lol I use balanced methods with my dog and she is well behaved, well trained, happy, and loves life. In fact, most of our training is +r, contrary to what uneducated positive only people think.
Thank you for spreading your knowledge and training methods. It is so important in this world full of quick fixes and ignoring of the animals' languages.
Now I have to admit that I am far from being a dog trainer. Hell, my dogs train me more than I train them. But when I rescued my Border Collie Blanche, I was hell bent on giving her only positive feedback and I tried to turn her to be sociable and trustworthy. Now, I could not do it without „NO!” - who ever had a BC in puberty will know what I mean, but apart from a few (okay, more than a few) no’s she only experienced positive enforcement and she is within reason a good problem solver and she trusts me 100%. Even when she’s a football pitch away - a call and a whistle will bring her back. She goes into her place when asked to - call me crazy, but I usually ask my dogs to do something and they know that when I order them to do something, they overstepped their boundaries. Aversive dog training has only one benefit: instant gratification for the trainer, but it comes with the risk of challenging the human/canine bond.
Most people dream about meeting their favorite actors or singers, but I've had multiple dreams about getting to meet Inertia. She's so special, give her a nice little pet for me. (20 days until I get to pick up my Nova)
Your methods are my favorite by far. I don’t believe in forcing a dog into compliance using punishment. Your love of dogs is so obvious and your positivity is a joy to watch. I respect that you don’t get defensive but rather explain why you train the way you do and without slamming other trainers methods. You are by far my favorite dog trainer to watch and my husband and I are using your techniques with our foster dog. We don’t currently have a dog of our own ( we lost one in August and one in September), but once we get another dog we will definitely be using your training methods.
I tried to train my dog all positive for almost one year. It made great progress and he is pretty good today. That said, he is reactive to male dogs when he is in the leash. I have tried for months to end this behavior with positive reinforcement, and I couldn't. My mom also walks my dog, and she is 65 years old. My dog weights 40 pounds. One day she was walking him, he saw a dog and he pulled so hard on the leash to go bark at the dog that she fell. After that I searched for another trainer, who uses punishment. In 2 weeks he solved my problem. So, here is my question, to what point should we only think about the dog's well being? And, is it really well being if he can't handle situations that he will always face in his life without freaking out? This is a genuine question, if you can please answer. I feel like he is much happier now, even if we have to walk with a collar on, instead of a harness. But I don't know if this will be only a temporary fix, and in the future it will make things worse.
The question is, does you dog need to face situations where they are reactive and clearly anxious, right now? For example, my dog can be reactive to little dogs. So i avoid little dogs, and i am vigilant in my assessment of the area if i am walking her. In the meantime i am doing online course in positive reinforcement for reactive dogs which have taught me a range of techniques, starting small with magnet hand etc. I am hoping to finish the year with The Play Way, but my first priority is to make sure i don't put my dog in a situation where she thinks she needs to react. Perhaps a change you could have made was to not have your mum walk the dog until you both had techniques mastered? Is the walk really for the dog if they are punished throughout? If the walk is really for you and your mum, then perhaps the dog doesn't need to go on that walk.
Also, i should mention that FDSA and other organisations have a lot of great, cheap course that can provide you with the knowledge to have a well round happy dog, that isn't a temporary fix.
@@candiceallen7967 Where I Iive the encounter with other dogs can´t be avoided. I don´t live in USA, and I live in a very busy avenue. There are dogs with people, street dogs. We try to avoid as much as we can, but we get at least one encounter on every walk. The walks are for the dog. As I work, my mother helps me to walk him, so he can get some air and exercise. I can maybe wait until he is better trained, but them he would have to stay only in the house. Not so sure this would be a good solution. And he is not getting punished all the time. Honestly, I walked him these weekend without one correction. And we saw other dogs. He is behaving much better now. And this is why I made the question, because I am afraid of this been a temporary solution only. Because if this is for real, I really think it is worth it. 2 weeks of corrections (and never all the time. It was always mixed with positive reinforcemnet) to fix reactivity is not bad. He is really happy, walking with much more confidence. I don´t know. He brough this question in the video and it made me think.
@@deboracorrea1091 Yes, it will last forever. You have shown him getting reactive is wrong, now, through positive encounters with other dogs [not meeting], just being there, non of his fears came true, his confidence will grow. His behaviour will become the norm. You will not have to keep correcting, BUT always keep being positive.
@@workingsables4483 he's worked with multiple reactive dogs and made a lot of progress via changing their emotional state toward triggers. How has he set dogs up to be more reactive?
@@workingsables4483 agree totally. He’s preaching a propaganda narrative. Respectable talented balance trainers do not train this way. Especially with a dog he is using in this video demonstration of training that does not work on the real world
Great video, it’s incredibly useful to have the examples of how you tackle real life situations vs instinctive (lets face it for most people we default to ‘no’ before our brain has assessed the situation fully) reactions. Just having the conversation as you train each thing is SO helpful, because when you are in the moment and getting frustrated it’s sometimes difficult to see a better way even when you know there is one.
I think some correction tools are judged too quickly, my dog struggles with recall, we use an ecollar to help us communicate. however it only vibrates to get his attention I would never in 2 million years shock him or anything remotely similar. I also use a martingale collar to help with heelwork training and because when I first rescued him he would slip out of collars and harnesses. Now tho I mostly use it to help break his prey drive focus on cats, squirrels etc and get him refocused on me and some treats. Using tools isn't bad however people who purposely cause their dogs pain or lots of discomfort to get a disired behavior really need to take a step back and look at what they are doing and why.
@@laululla e-collars are not shock collars nor do they give electrical shocks. They use small electrical pulses that are extremely low, so low that you as a human would not be able to perceive it. Humans aren't able to feel the stimulus of an e-collar until it is turned up to about a 6/7 and almost all dogs in an e-collar work off a stimulation level of 4 or lower.
@@user-md7mk7fb8g I don’t understand a reason why to sell collars where you could give "stimulus". In my work I sometimes give electrical treatment for humans and from the experience I know that same settings in the same devise can be uncomfortable to some people when others cant feel it.
Successfully training (using positive reinforcement thus a positive association) commands like no, leave it, and drop it takes care of a lot of the feeling of a need for aggressive training methods. It’s less stressful on both the dog and the owner too. And I ALWAYS reward crate time, upon entering AND exiting, and even while he’s just chilling in there. He now understand bedtime with the “Night, Night” command and lays right down in his bed inside his crate when he hears it! ♥️
Balanced dog training is not this at all. Balanced doesn't mean no reward it means fair consequence for behavior followed by showing the appropriate behavior and then rewarding.
@@workingsables4483 Yep! I used balanced with my dog, and I use treats and rewards all the time. It's sad trainers like Zak spread damaging information about balanced training.
@@nomoretax Balanced is using all 4 quadrants of training, Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. It's also using what works for the individual dog, dogs are not all the same and require different approaches. And contrary to what uneducated people say, we do use +r using treats, praise, toys, etc.
I hear a lot that the science says that the possitive reinforcement is the most effective way to train train any dog regardless of the behavior problems it may have. But the thing is I don't see you or any pure possitive trainer working with big aggresive dogs. But then I see the "so called balanced trainers" working with that type of dog all the time. Usually these balanced trainers get to work with dogs that have passed through many pure possitive trainers that have failed before. I love science, but I see that studies about dog training are not very trust worthy. I've never seen a dog study that meassures the effectiveness of different dog training systems that considers the dog temperament and drive, the level of distractions in the enviroment and dog's behavioral problems. Without taking these variables into consideration any study would be little more than trash.
You are believing that these dogs are “aggressive “because they are being placed in situations that caused them to behave aggressively. The reason you don’t see positive trainers have these outbursts are because they know how to keep a dog under threshold and counter condition them and manage them and desensitize them. I do this all the time on my channel. Keep in mind that dogs are not aggressive but sometimes behave aggressively depending upon context and that is the key! I have many examples of working with bite history dogs on my channel. Hope this helps!
@@zakgeorge It would be nice to see that in a future series you pick a dog that is in danger to be put down due to agressive behavior. I don't say it with bad intensions If possitive training can help this type of dogs I'd love to see it :)
@@kira1823 all due respect to Zak, I don't think he's qualified to take on a case like that. An aggression case in danger of BE is a task for a behavior consultant at minimum.
Whether it’s situational or not, it is extremely difficult to control everything about the dog. That’s not real life. I’ve been training with purely positive trainers, and my dog has the same issues. Is positive training ideal? Yes. Is every situation or owner ideal? No. We don’t live in a perfect world. Am I going to use punitive measures? No. Am I going to be abusive? No. But real life says that if a dog cannot behave in spite of the situation, he’s going to be put down. I’ve had three vets suggest that for my dog. I choose one more best effort, and that’s going to cost me a LOT of money. More than the dog’s worth, but i have to try because at this point, the purely positive dog trainers have me so guilt ridden and torn up about everything that I’m completely useless, or feel that way. So is a Gentle Leader aversive? Even some purely positive trainers are okay with them. I’ve used one on all but my first two dogs, and my first dog was a gift from God. She was perfect for a first timer. Was she dominant? Ask any dog around who the boss was. It was her! Definitely not aggressive but the boss except for my husband. She accepted me as having authority too. Will I use an e-collar? Heck no! I’ve seen dogs harmed. Will I correct a dog? Yes. Do I think it’s awesome to watch you work? Yes. However, I put my kids into timeout many times; nose and toes was a routine thing because it gave me time to cool down after they misbehaved. Then I could work with them positively. Same thing with my dog. He’s not going to whatever he wants. He’s going to behave and he’s going to work within the constraints of my lifestyle.Sometimes that may take more correction, often it takes an incredible amount of calm, and it always takes patience. Quick fixes are no good, but my dog must obey the rules.
I used the crate with my dog as a pup and he hated it but it was needed for house training, recovery from being neutered, feeding, or if I was boarding a dog at my house so my pup can observe my well trained lab greet other dogs so he learns proper etiquette when greeting dogs. He doesn't like the crate and I've tried to have him associate the crate with good things. I also used the crate to give my dogs and those being boarded a space to settle and take a break from the action. Some dogs feel a bit stressed in a crate but the crate has helped with a lot of issues and helped prevent issues with other pets and people. It helped with making my neutered pup become less aggressive with intact dogs.
Zak George if your methods were as superior as you present them to be, you wouldn't feel the need to belittle other methods. It's easy to compare your methods to others and make it sound great when no one is there to disagree. Let's see you have a discussion with other successful trainers that may be critical of your methods. You are disrespectful to a large group of people that have earned respect through their success in the dog training world. You are condescending in your tone and the way your present your view of those that train different from you. I've been training dogs for over 25 years now. I'm still learning. You learn by having people challenge your ideas, not by presuming you already know everything. You will not grow as a trainer by only listening and talking to those who agree with you. Either open up to having discussions outside of your own videos with people that will challenge your thinking or stop talking about the people you won't face.
As a balanced dog trainer I agree with a lot of what you’re saying in this video. But good balanced trainers don’t use terms like alpha or dominance almost ever. That’s not that’s just bad outdated training. Good balanced trainers use PR 90 percent of the time. But there are times where corrections are appropriate. Life is stress. It’s not all flowers and rainbows so why are we trying to create this illusion for our dogs. If we don’t teach our dogs how to deal with stress, we are doing a huge disservice to them. That being said, I crate train cute little puppies almost exactly the same as you do. And rarely use the word NO because i make NO actually mean something. Balanced trainers are a lot like PR Only trainers. We are just not as limited in what cases we can work with. Im still looking forward to your video showing how you train a truly aggressive dog. or how you reliably off leash train a dog to recall off of any distraction. That’s life saving training that keeps dogs from being put under ground and keeps them out of shelters
Also that low level stim used to condition the dog on the e collar DOES NOT cause discomfort if done properly. Nor is it the only thing they’re working for. The dogs are still to be rewarded with food or toy once the stim stops. There is a lot of missing context in this video. I’m not trying to attack Zak, but instead of “balanced” training being in the title of the video, it should really just say “bad training”.
Hi Zac, I always enjoy watching your training videos. While I agree with positive training as much as possible, there are a couple of online "balanced" trainers that I feel are very effective as well as kind. One specifically does not advocate a "dominance" or "alpha" philosophy, but rather a leadership role. In training I use 99% positive but the one thing I use an e-collar for is off lease fun with my poodle. We work in a common area by my townhouse and he loves to full out run, as fast as he can. It brings him so much joy and he loves to smell every inch of the ground. We trained together using the "pager", (which feels like a phone vibrating). He is almost 2 years old and at this point I can let him off leash to fetch, run and explore without worry. When I call him, he will turn on a dime and run to me, and if he hesitates, I just give him a quick page and he comes tearing to me, but not because he is afraid. There is so much excitement as he runs to me for the waiting treat and "Good, come." Sometimes his hesitation is a good smell or a person or distracting noise but when he feels the reminder, he is like, "Oh yea, Momma's calling me." I feel like you were exaggerating how the trainers I watch use "tools" to help people fix their own behaviours, in order to give themselves and their dogs a healthier, happier life. It goes back to how the owner is handling the dog. Unfortunately, we don't all have access to trainers like you. I took my dog to a trainer who said she used only positive training. We worked on loose leash training in a park and my miniature poodle could not contain himself and was uninterested in treats. The trainer took him from me and starting walking with him, and after a couple of minutes gave him a few good pops on the leash. I was not happy because she also will not allow the use of slip leashes in her class. A slip leash will not hurt him but a few good pops with a flat collar might. Anyway, I just wanted to say if positive only training worked for every owner, there would be no need for balanced training. Keep up the good work, I learn something new from you all the time, and for those of us who need to "correct" our pups sometimes, don't be too harsh. :)
I agree 100% with zak when it pertains to pets . My concern is that the dogs in shelters that will be put to sleep if their behavior is not corrected . 390,000 dogs will be put to sleep this year. If a balance trainer can get a dog adopted from a shelter that other wise would be put down . Maybe balance training should be considered in certain circumstances. Great video as always .
The problem is... balanced training suppresses behavior. So, if balanced training is used to get dogs adopted, then unexperienced owners could have a ticking time bomb in their household. It is a tricky subject unfortunately.. :/
@@JurassicWhitney A good balanced trainer does more than just suppress behaviour. Initially it is suppressed, but over time you teach the dog to understand a correction, to which then it is less aversive to the dog because it understands what it means. After that, you then work on the underlying issues. But you have to address the problems before you can address the emotional underlying issues!
@@m13l because you teach them what is desirable… just because you correct a behaviour doesn’t mean it’s fixed. It means you can then work on changing the dogs underlying emotional response via positive reinforcement
I think you have the best attitude. Your respect of the animal and the patience it takes is not fror everyone of course. You are a wonderful dog trainer and I learn so much from you. Thank you.
First of all I like your videos and approach, however Balance dog trainers are needed and I see many misconceptions in your comments. For example regarding "electric collars" they are not supposed to be use to train any behaviours, the dog must know the behaviour and the e collar is only there for safety, no matter how good your recall is if your dog is half a mile away from you and sees a trigger and doesn't respond to your voice commands, you must have a way of getting their attention, the e collar is just that like a touch in their shoulder from distance, no a torture device. Also e collars bought for $20 are crap and will shock a dog. People should buy good quality top of the spec ones and always learn how to actually work with an e collar. Same goes for any tool, prong collars are brilliant tools for big pulling dogs, no they don't hurt if use correctly quite the opposite as it distributes the pressure and don't sit in the middle of the neck, hurting their traquea but high up behind the ears. Again blame the users who don't know how to instead of the tool. Also it will be nice to see you dealing with a dog that is aggressive to humans, dogs, motorbikes anything, I am not talking mere reactivity here but dogs that will go for the bite and how would you deal with them with positive reinforcement only? I am talking from experience here, my dog due to his past, was reactive to everything and everyone but not your typical reactivity where the dog react, he will go for the bite. I had 4 trainers which all fail him, lots of $$$$$, (one of them wouldn't even come closer to my dog, who always wears his muzzle when meeting people or out and about)Finally found a brilliant balance trainer who help us enormously to the point where he could start walking with other dogs, be around people (as long as people actually listened to my instructions). He now can be off leash playing ball in a park and the minute I see another dog I can recall with 100% and he is not putting me in hospital with broken bones anymore due to his pulling either. Anyways my point is that probably for the majority of the dogs a totally positive approach might work, but there are some cases were it doesn't, and there have to be solutions for them too other than euthanasia. Keep up your good work with your training videos
This is the best thing for new dog owners. You can really kill the spirit of a dog by yelling no and physical discouragement. During dog training there is just as much training and restraint for the human to learn as the dog. I have seen people beat their dog because the dog couldn’t show restraint. How about the persons restraint? They couldn’t restrain enough to not beat the dog. People say you must show you are the alpha. I want my dog to know we are friends and want the dog to want to do things to make me happy. Just like I want to do things to make him happy. I’m no dog trainer. I’m just a person who lives with a dog. I love your videos and hope to keep my pup as happy as biscuit
Why is it always aversives vs positive reinforcement? A good balanced trainer will use mostly positive reinforcement. Studies always show aversive vs R+ so yeah R+ is always going to come out on top. There needs to be studies showing R+ with the occasional aversive. Despite what some people think, balanced dog owners use aversives to maximize the dog's quality of life. Aversives have helped so many dogs when R+ alone wasn't helping. Aversives can bring clarity to a dog's life and help lower frustration and stress when used properly. Many reactive dogs can stress themselves out the whole training session and that's not healthy. A simple leash pop paired with counter conditioning around triggers can lead to a positive training environment. You will never be the most interesting thing to your dog. If your dog doesn't have consequences, then why would they listen when something else is more interesting? That could easily turn into a life or death situation.
Zak is my favorite dog trainer. There are lots of dog training videos with different methods out there, but I consistently get the best results with your positive philosophy. Thanks Zak!
Since you have a lot of subscribers im reaching out to you. Could you pls make a video about fake rescue channels like "pet rescue channel"? Make people aware of the problem and let them know how to recognize these fake videos. We should all know about this so we can unite and report these channels and stop their business!!
Why don’t you go and work with a good balanced trainer and then talk about it? Because all you’re doing is talking about a controversial subject without even having both sides to talk from! At least go and watch/learn before having an opinion!
Believe it or not, I have been through your exact line of logic many times in the past! There is no doubt that there are plenty of trainers who use aversive methods in their training can get results. And very often there may even be no negative side effects with their training methods. The thing is that there is a whole scientific area of study dedicated to learning theory and dogs. And what we continue to learn is that aversive corrections may inhibit progress. Whether or not I am educated on a controversial subject is beside the point. For the sake of argument, let’s say I’ve never trained a dog at all. Those who are highly educated on this topic, in large part, continue to show us (through actual data and not anecdotes) that minimizing or even doing our best to eliminate aversives is strongly correlated with more optimal results particularly when we take the welfare of a dog into account. By no means am I suggesting that “balanced“ trainers are abusive or have bad intentions. In fact, I would say that “balanced“ training is a very intuitive way to train a dog. But as I said in the video, intuition doesn’t always tell the whole story. I continue to keep an eye on the latest scientific studies on this topic and I am prepared to throw everything out if new and compelling data comes forward. My interest in this is not just to be “right“. I really want to be the best trainer that I can and be as responsible as I can with my audience. There is not one governing body in the field of dog behavior at the highest levels that recommend the use of aversives in training. In other words, we can strongly correlate one’s level of formal education and study on this topic with recommendations against the use of using aversives. If you can explain to me why I should “go and work with a good balanced trainer“ and allow that to be a substitute for taking the advice of those who have made it their life‘s work to more broadly understand this topic then I am all ears. But even if I do go and work with a good “balanced “trainer and they are amazing in every way, those methods still need to be filtered through the scientific method and looked at from as many angles as possible including the long-term welfare of the dog.
With my pup the “look at me” command was key to all other training. They want your attention and want to please you. Our challenge is always build on this in a healthy way. Gracie Jane is my joy.
Although I don’t agree with your training philosophy, I admire how you still show in other videos your mistakes and explain what you could have done better. I like how in this video you respectfully disagreed without bashing. Because we can disagree and that’s okay! It’s more about how we do it. Thanks to balanced training, my dog is no longer living his life connected to a leash. Off leash for the win! 🐶
Acknowledging my kids good behavior with a reward may have worked for good behavior but ignoring their bad behavior only encouraged more undesirable behavior.
Good comment! Simply ignoring bad behavior isn’t what I typically recommend. Managing and preventing unwanted behavior in addition to encouraging incompatible alternative behaviors tends to go a long way!
@@zakgeorge We live in a world where that's not always possible though. And some of us have dogs that have those bad behaviors already well integrated. And many positive trainers do recommend to ignore bad behavior.
Exactly! And “trainers” like ZG are the ones recommending that people euthanize their family pets because they can’t “encourage” a dog out of bad behaviors. Some dogs respond well to positive only. Awesome. Not all of them. My dogs behavior was NOT fear based, as determined by the positive only trainers I started with. But I took my dog to positive only trainers because if the grief I was given for considering balanced training. All three of them told me to euthanize my dog because he was “too aggressive to be helped.” Within ONE single session with my first balanced trainer, I got the tools to help my dog. And now, my dog is trustworthy and living his happiest life with me.
I studied psychology in undergrad and graduate school. One thing that comes to mind when watching this video is that positive rewards are the most effective tool for behavior modification and either positive or negative punishment are both less effective in the long term then either positive or negative rewards.
👏👏👏 Realizing that I could effectively train/communicate with a dog without causing them pain (thanks to your videos) is one of the main reasons why I decided to keep my foster pup. I understood that there was a way to keep us both happy and comfortable. I’m so grateful for these videos. Question for you, this 18 week old pup is still going through biting phases. I am following your recommendations to exercise, redirect to an appropriate item, teach how hard is acceptable to bite, go into a training session, or give him some alone time. Unfortunately the thing that works best is having Bear do something easy that he knows well and then giving him a focus treat (like a kong with peanut butter) to keep him busy for a while until his mood shifts. I’m scared I’m reinforcing the biting by giving the treats. What do you think?
Awwwe.... Biscuit is doing so good! What a sweetie pup. I used a method very similar to Zak's for teaching a past friend's dog Place. He loved it! It was like a game to him; and I was pleasantly amazed at how fast he learned! I did use a leash; but only to guide and keep him from running off. I did not use the leash for correction. Then, later I had the honor of fostering a dog; and I used the same method with her. She picked up on it just as quickly.
I really love your videos Zak, but one problem that I have with your channel is that you never deal with truly aggressive dogs. I've seen your videos where you emphasis on creating distance until your dog is ready, but you never really go further than that or follow-up on how the dog is later. We haven't seen a dog that you were uncomfortable introducing Inertia to and it'd be great to see how you'd overcome that type of dog aggression.
@@FWS_Sinister I did watch the Chop series and it was a good example of what to do with a dog reactive dog, but Chop was still able to meet and play with Inertia without a muzzle.
A simple, very grateful THANK YOU, Georges, Mr. and Mrs., for sharing your expertise and behind the scenes work. I am bingeing your lessons and it's been so helpful with our new Goldendoodle puppy, Max. We previously had two family dogs, a lab and golden retriever, when my young adult sons were very young, these pups were their dogs to grow up with, they acted as my assistants while working from home for many years, they were loved, spoiled, wonderful, well behaved adult dogs and are still so greatly missed. What my good old boys weren't, was very well behaved puppies, I did not use a crate, feeling it was cruel to lock them in, of course, we had destroyed shoes and clothes, chewed chair legs etc. Those boys needed the security of their own space and down time from the huge world of stuff to smell and taste and the hectic rough-housing of two small boys. It has been a few years now and time for a new puppy. I fully expected to be run raggged because every good dog starts as an adorable but crazy puppy. Your approach is a revelation to me! I've learned to proactively and meaningfully communicate with my new puppy around the behaviors we all want and don't want, and we both thank you. I can see now when I was a young, busy mom with our family dogs before, I was letting them run amock and then dealing with it afterward. Not seriously expecting them to understand my woeful, exasperted, "look at this, no-no, that's a no-no!", meant to stop the behavior in the future, but kind of thinking I am letting them know and one day, they'll outgrow it. They did, but we could all have had a less frustrating time. Fast forward, our new boy, Max, has been with us a month, he is 12 wks, he goes into his crate willingly -usually, comes, stays, sits, downs and really looks at me for instruction, what a difference it has made for my stress level and I am sure what his would be with a lot of "look at that no-no" in his life. When I am faltering, I come back to watch or just recall what I can change in how I respond. Thank you so much for the content you put out, you are positively changing pet's and people's experiences!
All I hear is virtue signaling rather than providing results and a sensible argument. Your purely positive training definitely makes sense for obedience, crate training, and socialization. However, your dog to dog aggression content is slim and leaves a lot to be desired. Not only are your dog aggression videos riddled with pet accessory sales pitches, but they lack the progress that balanced trainers’ videos do. E.g. Beckman’s, Upstate Canine, & Robert Cabral. Your videos prove them all right, a treat and a good bond is not enough to redirect an aggressive dog at reasonable distances. Everyday dog owners need actionable advice, not empty platitudes and brand deals.
I think this is how people should live life. Love your vibe. If you decide to have kids, they are going to be so lucky. If you raise them with the gentleness and kindness of these animals, they will be in great hands.
As you said… as much as you know, we all realized the little you know… and 100%… you don’t know what you don’t know, and hopefully when you know better, you do better ❤️
So, I have trained dogs and horses for a long time. On a small scale, mind you, I'm not a professional trainer by any means. I think positive only training is preferable in MOST situations. I have trained mustangs from right off the range to being able to ride them, and have always endeavored to do so in a way that promotes trust. I agree that the word no should be used sparingly. It's far more meaningful if it's not over-used. Conversely, I have definitely seen animals that are at emergency levels of bad behavior, and sometimes to bring them under control so you can actually begin to train, it can be necessary to venture into the area of positive punishment. (Ex: If your dog is trying to tear apart another dog, I don't feel like a leash pop is out of line). Some people jump right to positive punishment and think THAT is training. I've always leaned heavily on positive reinforcement and praise with dogs and horses, and very rarely had to use positive punishment to address a behavior. Even then, always the least 'force' possible. If you can achieve with gentle pressure the same thing as a leash pop, that would definitely be my preferred choice.
Dont tell them that, it doesnt work with their straw man. They would rather point you to all their studies that PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that a puppy would rather learn a "sit" with treats than with harsh beatings. Yes, thank you science, very insightful.
I think you’re a good guy with a good heart and soul...in the end that’s that matters...all of your intentions with dogs and dog training come from love...there is no wrong in that. Great job! Thank you for being an advocate dogs! 💕💕
What would be useful, is a CIVIL debate between a positive reinforcement trainer, and a balanced trainer. Not an angry, name calling, bitter fest, but an informed respectful debate. This would be a useful format to help people make informed decisions about how to train their dogs
I agree. I'm a balanced dog trainer, and am honestly getting really tired of people like Zak talking about a method they don't understand or use at all.
You’re using a puppy toy breed dog and crate training as the example to argue your point on balanced training 😂 Bring in a large breed, stubborn, actually aggressive, reactive, intact male and show us how you would work with him on a walk.
Our first lab puppy was trained the ", old-fashioned" choke chain with pops etc per his obedience classes. Many lab and lab mixes later, the same organization now uses positive reinforcement, as we plan to do with the new puppy we are getting next week (another lab). We have grown as owners, as has the organization. This training is much more fun for all involved and even more effective. It does take longer at the start to build trust and a relationship between us all, but is worth it.
I love the fact how every dog is different to train, when you have a working dog positive enforcement doesn’t always work. A couple disciplines and the dog excels. So your talk about being alpha being outdated doesn’t work is probably directed to training very small dogs.
I would love your take(I’ve been bashed horribly) on a 165lb 2 year old intact newf. I ONLY did positive training for 10 months. I tried to be exciting, up the treat rewards etc. I can tell you I’m lucky my shoulder doesn’t have permanent damage. He would take off at dogs, birds, squirrels, nothing I did when we were out kept his focus on me and I watched your videos a lot. I had to out of safely for him(what if he ran into traffic or at an aggressive dog)have him ecollar trained. Finally I he would heel etc no longer was I getting dragged to the ground. Now this is still a daily work in progress So my question to YOU(again I’ve been bashed because apparently I’m awful for doing this to a Newfie) how would you suggest handling a giant breed with high prey drive, and almost no food drive??
“Watching her learn is special isn’t it.” If I’m being honest, I wish I had a human behavioralist who would train ME for appropriate human behavior with this kind of positive reinforcement and patience.
I like your videos but sometimes In certain situations you do need the dog to understand what he can't do certain behaviors. For those behaviors you do need to use more serious methods. Leash popping isn't bad. Just not something you always want to do. No like for example if your dog takes off when it sees something. Leash pops will teach him not at that moment. A leash pop isnt hurtful just gets the dogs attention. The 4 quadrants are required to train a dog. The idea behind being a handler is to be a leader. Put yourself in the dogs shoes.
second this I have used many of Zach teachings with my beagle, lol but I would like the stubbornness of a hound breed shown , because sometimes it seems their nose overrides all
I adopted a 2 year old german shepherd that was bitten and then not socialised with other dogs which resulted in him being extremely scared of other dogs. I went to three different trainers that all taught me different ways of “correcting” this behaviour, and it seemed to work for a while. I also went to one trainer that used positive reinforcement, the wrong way I might add, and it didn’t work. People who weren’t trainers also told me to correct him. So I listened to the “correction” trainers and people, and I regret it so much. I failed helping him, tried to give him away to an older more experienced person and after two weeks with him the dog bit a person he had not met before. It was very surprising as he had been friendly with people before this. I blame myself and the correction approach… I will never make that mistake again, now I even feel bad when I hear other people tell their dog no in a strict way.
I think there is nothing wrong with e collars as long as they are used correctly. I think the dog should have been thought the command with positive reinforcement and it’s ok to introduce it later to proof a command like recall.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I think a lot of people think this way. I would encourage those same people to ask themselves if it is possible to train without an electric collar? And if there is a path forward that doesn’t require an unpleasant stimulation to a dogs neck using electricity, would that be a more favorable path?
@@zakgeorge Do you like to use hand screwdrivers only when electric ones are too noisy? It's a tool, it has great use; you can touch the dog from 500 yards away. Is it possible to train it with other methods? Sure, but some things take longer, or the alternative is not letting the dog go off leash. Freedom is a currency too. And of course I'm not talking about jackasses that just light dogs on fire for looking at other dogs. Just like I don't think you defend trainers that tell people to euthanize their dog because it can't be helped. We both have bad apples in the fringes of our camps.
@@zakgeorge You had the example of the harnessed dog lunging after squirrel. Rightly said that the jerk on the end of the lead was aversive. Now REMOVE the harness, let the same dog be FREE. Cue squirrel. With the ecollar you STILL have the harness and lead when the dog takes off after the squirrel. AND no possibility of any bruising to the dogs chest. My dog can be FREE among rabbits and squirrels, would go mad restricted to a longline [used in recall training, as you do] Everything taught positively, even intro to ecollar, which is NEVER used in training. She [GSD] is 10x more reactive than Moira. I dont have ducks, I have hares.
I got my puppy in March 2022.you have guided me( as this is my first puppy)through my puppys stages.i have a balanced happy and good dog although she is coming up to her 1st year and getting larger than i expected.it's your training that has got me a beautiful dog thank you.I have to take into consideration the personality of my dog and we gell together.thank you.
I'm glad you're the most watched dog trainer on YouTub helping to educate positive dog training. You're able to educate and reach more people. We have only used positive training methods thanks to your books and videos teaching us how to properly train our dogs. With patience and implementing your suggestions, there has been no reason to consider other inhumane ways of training. I'm sad for those who believe in balanced dog training.
I’ve been training for 10+ years and started out as a strictly “positive reinforcement” trainer. To each their own I quickly learned basic training and positive reinforcement doesn’t always work with adult dogs who have a complicated background. Whether it be they were trained inadvertently to be naughty, don’t care for treats or toys or are completely manic and don’t snap out of their aggression no matter how many treats you attempt to give them because they don’t care for treats when “triggered” or don’t care for treats in general. I’m not a fan of “physical correction” (touching the dog in any way to modify behavior) but I do use “noise correction” whether that be a quick “HEY!”, a coin jar or a “pet corrector,” to snap them out of a manic state to redirect their attention. Usually after the first 1-5 times of disrupting them they automatically give me their attention and then we can move forward with counter conditioning, desensitization, etc. recalls no matter how much they are practiced with highly manic dogs hasn’t snapped them out of that state in my experience. I also think it’s about time to address pet parents. If dogs are taught appropriately at a young age when positive reinforcement can be strictly used for “shaping” it prevents having to “untrain” bad behavior and not all bad behavior can’t be corrected with positive reinforcement but once you get past a certain threshold of aggression that’s a problem that more often than not needs training that gives correction. I watch dogs correct each other on a constant basis through body language, barking and or physical contact (biting or pinning). I would rather safely correct a dog without physical harm at home so that he can avoid being physically corrected (harmed) by another dog outside or at a dog run.
Subscribed you months ago after coming across your series With Muira the GSD and thought you did an awesome, job I’ve seriously learnt so much from your techniques and methods. However I don’t believe this positive only method is the best approach. I think that was very evident with the Muayra the GSD. What you did with that dog in 2 weeks was amazing with everything except her dog reactivity, after 2 weeks there was hardly any real difference and to be fair I’ve seen dogs with far worse dog reactivity than what she had. I’m sure that given months and months and months of positive training you could of gotten over that hurdle but that’s not a realistic scenario for most people and I’d love to see positive only method work in an aggressive highly reactive dog. I’m sure I saw that your philosophy was the least amount of discomfort possible or words to that effect, which is great but genuine question is it not better to have a more balanced approach and use corrections to correct the behaviour as soon and as fast as possible? I mean if it takes 6 months to get a dog over their issues with positive only opposed to say a balanced approach where corrections are used and those are dealt with far faster and the dog is in a better and happier place much sooner, isn’t that better for the dog?
I agree! I also think to keep sending the message that positive only is the only way is damaging. Why limit people and dogs from getting the help they need because it isn't "positive only"? Thousands of dogs are dying every day and pushing the narrative of death before discomfort is getting a lot of dogs killed and surrendered to shelters and preventing a lot of owners from getting help.
@@NakamitsuSama totally agree, dont get me wrong I think Zak is great which is why I’m subscribed, but it feels like in this video he’s straw manning how people use corrections, the whole example of the create and making out like the balanced approach this dog would of gotten corrected for not staying at in the create which I don’t think is a typical of the balanced approach. As far as I’m concerned the balanced approach means use positive methods like what he was doing but when they don’t work or there’s a behaviour that can not be tolerated then you have the correction as tool in your arsenal. If you have a highly dog reactive dog for example, you could give it all the cooked chicken in the world and it won’t give a shit it just wants to get to that dog.
Agreed!!! I call them limit vs limitless trainers. The goal of all trainers should be to train dogs with as little harm or corrections as possible but sometimes you just can’t. That’s the real world. You need to be able to adapt and admit when your methods don’t work. For example the Moira series is the best example where balanced training would have fixed the dog but his arrogance to R+ training prevented that.
@@JasonLee-vh4cs 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 yes and thank you for correct my spelling Moira 😂 I was close lol My first GSD was a rescue and was highly dog reactive and also reactive to men. She got corrected for those times where she lunged at them and very quickly learnt that’s not acceptable (I LOVED the dog and didn’t want her getting out down if she bit someone) after a very short amount of time I could walk her off leash around other reactive dogs around men etc she was literally the perfect dog, because those issue were dealt with really fast it meant she could go everywhere and anywhere with me, because those isssues were dealt with her quality of life improved immensely.
Thank you for your videos. I adopted a pup back in February a lot of people have tried giving me advice saying I need shock collars / unpleasant correction. I’ve been watching your videos for years and the positive reinforcement angle to the training has really benefited us and our relationship with our dog
I’m a big fan of you and Joel Beckman. I’m happy to see you address this. I see myself as a balanced trainer who emphasizes positive reinforcement first and foremost. So it is nice to see us all get along and understand everyone has a different approach to educating our clients to have the best relationship with their dogs. Dog training is better with all of us learning from one another. I just wish you would’ve addressed us as “balanced trainers” in your title rather than so called “balanced trainers”. I don’t think you would appreciate being called so called “purely positive trainers”.
Yessss, every good balanced trainer uses positive reinforcement preferably, and then progresses as needed if that fails - this is usually something the purely positive trainers don't realize. They think we jump straight to corrections and "shock collars" on little puppies, just to add into that emotional manipulation to make us the big bad guys. A good balanced trainer knows he will have to use a massive amount of treats and praise without any corrections on a pup that is afraid of humans. He won't go into corrections. But he also knows that big cane corso that is human-aggresive and has to have a muzzle on and a prong collar at all times, will not get fixed with treats. That dog doesn't care about your treats, that dog wants to hurt you or kill you. A balanced trainer would also not use corrections on a little puppy, only adult dogs that are physically healthy. This whole video screams emotional manipulation without knowing a thing about what balanced trainers deal with. They don't fix puppies or dogs that sleep all day but once jumped on the counter and therefore need training. Balanced trainers fix dogs that have attempted to kill or seriously hurt someone or something. Dogs that have bitten off pieces of flesh of off someone's limb. Or dogs that would do so if given a chance. Dogs like that get told that they need to be put down by purely positive trainers. And then the owners seek out balanced trainers, because they will help deal with the issue. A lot of purely positive trainers would rather put the dog down instead of trying to fix it by doing a little leash pop on the collar. Absolutely mind blowing. Show me a video of a positive trainer fixing a massive and aggressive dog that wants to hurt that trainer because he's so human aggressive. Show me how a trainer would do it with treats when he's a whole snack for that dog. Not teaching puppies how to pee outside or a dog who sometimes lunges when he sees a bird. (this is a rant because I'm so sick of this emotional manipulation and I finally saw one sensible comment)
@@klaraptor I agree the emotional manipulation is out of control. They always make it seem like we are unethical bad guys who beat our dogs and are uneducated on dog related science and research. But it is actually the opposite many of us have read the research and found flaws in many of their “definitive” resources. The father of PP trainer, Skinner, was even disproven by his first research fellow who went on to try to prove whether every behavior could be reinforced and found that you cannot reinforce behaviors are against the nature of the creature in training (aka can’t teach a dog to be a bird). How about that many of their resources on proving behavior shaping use dolphins as a subject which are grazing animals. I mean I could go on about the skewed “science” that is pushed about purely positive training in attempt to demonize balanced training. It doesn’t mean positive reinforcement training isn’t extremely effect- it means it is just one piece of a larger pie. In defense tho, I will say the emotional manipulation happens both ways. I have balanced trainer friends who hardcore judge PP trainers and take every chance they get to tell their clients that they are useless at shaping behaviors. Some of them don’t learn enough PP methods before imploring corrections. And that is an issue for me. My mentor is an ex military and police dog trainer and now therapy dog trainer - he is constantly telling me how he doesn’t like to interact with modern police dog handlers because they use over corrections trying to compensate for something 🍆 if you know what I mean 😂 At the end of the day, we fix each other’s mistakes. When bad PP trainers are too treat heavy with aggressive dogs and want management to last 5 years plus where the owner and dog are in a state of mental breakdown over the lack of freedom they have, then they seek out balanced trainers to right the course. When bad balanced trainers are too quick to over correct and lean on outdated alpha theories to the point of creating nervous or anxious dogs, then PP trainers can help righting that course. Ideally we would all address our own shortcomings, but there will always be bad trainers from all disciplines and at least dog owners have the ability to find a trainer who can help them with their unique situation.
@@shelbelee this is very well written! You're right about the emotional manipulation going both ways and there being bad trainers on both sides. Also a lot of the "studies" are done with ridiculously small subjects groups where i don't think they should even fall under "studies". I've come across people telling me I shouldn't even raise my voice around my dog because that will emotionally scar him. Absolutely ridiculous. Just like when teaching a child about consequences, you don't just throw treats at them or don't let them make mistakes. That child needs to learn what's right and wrong to differentiate.
I am an amateur dog enthusiast and have gotten great results working with all kinds of dogs. I enjoy your videos, and in my opinion, the most important thing people can take away from them is that as the trainer you have to constantly evaluate what you are doing and be flexible with your plan. It is up to the trainer to make the dog successful. The second most important thing I think people get from your videos is to see how hard it is, even for someone who trains dogs all the time. Reward timing is so important, and it is not as easy as it looks to set them up for success. Not to mention knowing when to back off and slow it down a bit. However, in this video you state that the terms Alpha and Pack Leader are outdated. I am not sure I believe that. The term Alpha typically has bad connotations to people, so I no longer use it myself, but I still believe in establishing yourself as the Pack Leader. Like it or not, everything you do in your videos does this. You want the dog to problem solve correctly and look to you for direction. You achieve this by rewarding them for displaying desired behaviors. Which leads to the dog trying to please you by doing those behavior. You as the leader are setting up the scenarios for them to be successful and rewarding appropriately. You are also revaluating on the fly to make sure you are not overwhelming the dog and achieving optimal results. By this standard you are an outstanding pack leader. IMO that term has nothing to do with Balanced Dog Training and more to do with being the leader the dog needs to achieve. I have seen so many people pay to have a dog trained professionally just to have to pay for it to go through refresher training in the future. I have seen this occur with dogs taken to 100% positive trainers, as well was taken to balanced dog trainers. I believe that training regression occurs because the owner fails to be the leader the dog needs. In all instances I have seen the owner does not follow through with the trainer’s advice and immediately starts rewarding undesired behaviors. Which I get, as most of it is done out of love, but it kind of reinforced the point I am trying to make. The human needs to be the leader the dog needs for the dog’s wellbeing. It reduces their stress when they clearly know what is expected of them. That allows them to thrive and be happy. Look how happy Biscuits was in your last video. She really started to understand what you wanted and was more than happy to deliver. So, I hope you realize that I 100% believe in positive dog training, but just have a problem with abandoning the term Pack Leader. Maybe it should just be shortened to Leader, Teacher, or Parent? Still the owner/trainer needs to have a leadership role in the dog’s life, so I am not sure it matters what it is called, as long as the role is fulfilled. I also saw that someone else mentioned in the comments that they would like to see you train a dog on its last chance. A dog with high aggression and severe behavioral problems. I would also like to see that in one of your reality dog training series. In truth I don’t believe the approach would change much other than adding additional safety measures for your family and taking more time to establish trust with the dog. And a lot more time. I enjoyed the series on Chop, but he was more of an untrained dog that was never socialized because he was raised in the wild versus having true behavioral problems.
ive tried strictly positive reinfocment trianing with my 16 month rescued pup for 6 months and got nowhere in terms of recall and leash reactivity. As soon as I started to use a martingale collar the results were almost immediate. Also what quality of life has my dog got if it takes me another year to get him to the point where he can go off lead or meet other dogs? I would never ever resort to ecollars or the like but positive reinforcement doesn't always work.
Positive reinforcement is a competency based practice-- it works by definition, as do the other quadrants, so if it's not working the issue is with how it's implemented, not the quadrant. This is why it's so crucial to find a qualified professional to help you learn how to use it correctly. This is no shade or hate to you as a pet parent, it's just important that people understand "R+ doesn't always work" is simply untrue.
@@applejackisbestpony it simply is true in my experience. Not a single R+ trainer has been able to help me and I've tried a number by now. Yet these methods that are apparently deemed barbaric and outdated have worked immediately and my dog is happier and living a more fulfilled life because I did what every single dog trainer told me not to do....listen to balanced trainers. Results speak more loudly than case studies.
@@buuuuuuuuuuuuuu it's not just case studies, but peer reviewed research-- and like I said, decades of it. Anecdotal experience doesn't outweigh empirical evidence. And again, there are a lot of had R+ Trainers just as there are a lot of bad balanced trainers. If it's not working, it's because they aren't competent at what they do. I also used to struggle with getting results and often resorted to punishment. When I learned better, I got results with R+ and didn't need punishment anymore. I wasn't *not* getting results bc R+ was failing, but because I wasn't using it properly (as many do).
@@applejackisbestpony Sorry. the peer reviewd research here is not conclusive and does not reflect the real world in many cases. If you look into some of these studies they are farcicle.
@@applejackisbestpony positive reinforcement by definition can only be used to increase the frequency of a behavior.... This means it is incapable of removing bad behaviors. The best you use it to train an incompatible new behavior,but when it comes to aggression there isn't a great incompatible behavior.
I love your method for building communication and multiple different obedience reasons and like the way your way gives the dog a chance to think for itself I think that's very crucial imo granted I'm only 16 and I haven't had a dog of my own yet but I've spent many hours watching many different channels and listening to all different types of people and why the way they teach works for them and how it benefits the dog.. On that note that's why I prefer Beckmans method to establish boundaries with the dog I also really like his method but i always tell people when mentioning either of you is that your both respectable in what you do and how you do it.. it's all in how the dog responds and how well you're able to communicate that way of teaching... atleast that's the opinion I've gathered so far from what I've figured out.... Also if any of you made it to this point Than you you're amazing, and have a wonderful night,evening,morning
It seems to me that one of the fundamental mis-steps in communication between different types of dog training is the conflation of the 𝘦𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘦𝘴𝘴 of a particular technique with the 𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘤𝘴 of that technique, and that conflation carries with it a personal emotional investment that can make critiques feel like either personal or systemic attacks. All four of the operant conditioning quadrants are effective, and this is simply an objective fact. That fact, however, doesn't address whether or not there is an ethical problem with some of them. "Balanced" training utilizes all four quadrants, while "positive" training only uses two (yes, the focus is on positive reinforcement, refusing access to a rewarding stimulus until the correct behavior is presented is negative punishment). Even if the two methodologies had identical rates of effective performance (they don't, methods that emphasize positive reinforcement as the primary tool showed both higher levels of learning speed and retention), the question still remains: If you can train a dog just as effectively 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 using aversives, is it morally a problem to do so? My personal answer to that is 'Yes', I don't think that it's ok to cause stress or discomfort to a dog without a compelling reason to do so. The dog training world has far, far too much ego attached directly to training method (as evidenced by the comment section of any dog training video that dares to critique a different method), and we should be spending more time looking at the data instead of doing things "because I've always done it this way, and it works fine."
Some of the science I mentioned:
Arhant C, Bubna-Littitz H, Bartels A, Futschik A, Troxler J. Behaviour of smaller and larger dogs: Effects of training methods, inconsistency of owner behaviour and level of engagement in activities with the dog. Appl Anim Behav Sci. 2010;123(3-4):131-142.
Hiby EF, Rooney NJ, Bradshaw JWS. Dog training methods: their use, effectiveness and interaction with behaviour and welfare. Anim Welf. 2004;13(1):63-69.
Rooney NJ, Cowan S. Training methods and owner-dog interactions: Links with dog behaviour and learning ability. Appl Anim Behav Sci. 2011;132(3-4):169-177.
Thoughtful words! Well stated.
No one could've said it better, this comment needs more likes.
"I don't think that it's ok to cause stress or discomfort to a dog without a compelling reason to do so."
The most important part of this well written response.
I agree with every point you make here when applied to a puppy but from my observations of Balanced trainers and some aversive methods they employ is usually an adult dog with aggressive and reactive behavior.
I've attempted to use treats and happy vocal stimuli in those situations and what I learned from that experience is either the dog is not interested in the treats because they are laser focused on the object OR they think I am rewarding them for their potentially dangerous behavior, which is inadvertently training them to be aggressive.
So the question begs... what would you as a purely positive trainer do in that situation?
(First, Thank you Zak George for your Videos, they where a tremendous help to me.)
I mostly agree. But for my taste it is a little too theoretical. Yes in a perfect world there would be everything with „positive“ training. But i belive that there is right now a gap between this theoretical possibility to do it all positive and the praktikal appliance. I love how Mr. Gorge shows what is possible and gives so much faith in this method and encourages me to try and try to get it done positive. But i also see that there is a lot of skill involved to „read“ your dog and to know how to work on things. Not everyone is that skilled or can manage to get that skilled in time (before things go south). And you can worsen stuff with a positive approache done wrong. E.g. letting self reinforcment happen for unwanted behaivoirs by accident. That does not mean that with balanced, adversive or whatever you will try this wont happen, but also „positve“ can create problems (done wrong). And having for some situations a fallback with a balanced metheod can be more ethical correct, in my opinion, than having stress with and for the dog for months or more. And this is what is happening in cases. And than saying someone who uses any kind of correction is ethicaly misbehaving ist to crass to me. I dont think that dogs can‘t have a happy live with people who arn‘t the perfect dog trainers. And i don‘t belive that trainer who give people who are struggeling a balanced way out arn‘t ethicaly wrong either. Please don‘t missunderstand me, i absoluty advocate for the mildest possible approach. And i truly belive you should try your best to get done as much as possible as positive as possible. But you can‘t just ignore the skill oft he people. And i think this channel is a hughe step in enabaling people to do more the positve way. And i also belive that the more fundament you have with your dog in postive training the less „adversive“ will be „needed“ even by whose struggle in some areas with positive approaches.
I think giving people the feeling what they do is ethically wrong, and/or that they are not good enough is fanning the flames between „balanced“ and „positive“.
@@rufflifecanineservices1585 That's the kind of situation where I think this conversation tends to live. Obviously every dog is different, and you have to train the dog in front of you, but generally speaking, at least in my case (I don't generally refer to myself as a 'positive' trainer, I usually use LIMA) I would back up the training and control the setting more until I hit a point where the dog 𝘪𝘴 interested, then work up from there. In my experience, the most common situation in which positive training "fails" is simply that the trainer isn't really willing to keep backing up until they find the spot where the dog is "at".
Only thing that helped my 120lb Cane Corso who became lease reactive toward dogs and people at the age of 4 only used positive only training on all my dogs but I ended up getting a herm sprenger prong and 180 saved my dog and only had to use it for a week and boom back to his old self ! Positive methods for 99% of training but when it comes to real aggression good luck
Totally agree I have three dogs two I only use positive only training , the third I use balanced training as she is a APBT and could defiantly do damage if not controlled appropriately she is actually very sweet and obedient BUT I am very aware of what she is and I am always in control of her ❤
Zak, you were my inspiration for training our Goldendoodle (Standard size 65 lbs so far) and I have to say he is at 10 months very well trained thanks to your videos. He was completely potty trained by 13 weeks with a total of 3 accidents since. He sits, he stays, he leaves it, he shakes, he hugs, he fetches, he sits for meals and does not go near his food until I say okay….now barking at people out our windows and in the backyard….lets just say we are working on it! :)
I found you 12 years ago. My aussie mix was just 10 weeks old. I changed my training method using exactly what you encouraged. My girl is now 12 years old. I can't even count how many times I have/had people compliment me and Gypsy on her behaviour and almost human like character. We have such a beautiful relationship. You made me see Gypsy as a companion. Gypsy is the best dog I have ever had and I know it's because of you. Thank you!
That's great to hear! I am determined to make our new Brittany the best dog I have ever had, and using these techniques has been incredibly effective. Even though she is only 8 weeks old and it may have been too soon to start, by the second day in her new home, she was already sitting and lying down. She is definitely a smart pup, but I attribute her progress to these loving techniques because they truly work!
As a vet I have to say I absolutely love the way you train and try to help pet owners understand why positive reinforcement is preferred. It’s not just about getting the behaviour you want, it’s about helping the dog really understand it and building a bond. I’ve referred several clients with their first puppies to watch your videos!
I'm so glad to hear that a vet is promoting positive conditioning. Are you a vet in the U.S.? If so, could you help me understand why vets here have rejected non-surgical options for neutering?
@@anonanonymous1970 I am not in the US. What type of non surgical neutering are you asking about?
@@kmclare2 Well, in the UK and other countries, vets administer shots that curb testosterone and sterilize without surgery. Some only last 6 months so that owners can observe the effects before committing to neutering. In the U.S., we are required to neuter by surgery - vets here have refused to use these other options (presumably because they cost less).
I'm starting to suspect that the removal of key hormones (on top of the trauma of spay/neuter surgery) underpins a lot of dog behavioral issues. Understandably!
@@anonanonymous1970 part of the problem is the part about owners needing to pay close attention to signs if/when it wears off. Unfortunately many owners don't, and the concern with overpopulation mostly has to do with people not paying close enough attention to their dogs in the first place (hence accidental breedings).
Also, if the concern is that not enough testosterone leads to health issues, then how is it any different if testosterone is chemically or surgically removed?
Honestly, if the dog has behavioural issues related to testosterone (marking or territorial aggression), neutering surgically is best. I see A LOT of dogs that are neutered and many that aren't. Those with behavioural issues have more to do with not enough training, and almost nothing to do with the presence of testosterone, or lack thereof.
I have to admit , that watching you train and deal with a biting puppy helped me. I have had a few dogs over the years and training has changed so much. I have a 10 week old Mountain Labradoodle and we are in the height of biting and teething. I was going about it all wrong and was on the road to ruining my relationship with this pup. Within a day of doing more positive instead of corrective, he’s happier, I’m happier and we are getting to know each other. He’s calmer, I’m calmer and it’s made for an easier transition.
As a trainer myself I try to understand the techniques of multiple trainers. You are such a nice guy and always take the high road, which I respect. I said yesterday on Beckman's channel that if more people employed positive reinforcement training as a puppy less people would have to take their 3 year old out of control dogs to people like Joel (who I like and respect as well)
Yes, I have very similar thoughts as you
I love Joel, and Tom Davis. They are the people to go to when you have a dog with serious issues. Zak is the guy you go to when you are training a new puppy or some new behaviors. I also really like Stonie Dennis for positive reinforcement training. He had some good videos on puppy adventure training.
@@MrsFitzus I watch every trainer I come across to sharpen my skills and learn other's perspectives. Chris Perondi is amazing as well. I'll check out your suggestion...thanks!
@@MrsFitzus This idea that positive reinforcement doesn't work for dogs with serious issues is an odd one. Serious issues like aggression, reactivity, separation anxiety, etc are all caused by emotional problems, and as Zach explained in this video, aversive techniques have risks in making the underlying cause worse. Often we see learned helplessness where dogs are punished for expressing their fear or stress, sure the dog might appear better behaved, but their mental wellbeing has not improved. Positive reinforcement is not just for obedience training.
@@tonyveguilla8358 Do you happen to know if there's any way to tame down a prey drive? My dogs are jack Russell/chihuahua Cross and it's one area I am at a bit of a loss (I just keep them on their leash when there's rabbits around since they killed one last year) - they don't have this behaviour any other time and usually have great impulse control and recall. "Leave it" works for absolutely everything else, except a rabbit.
I'm not one for giving up but I'm a bit stuck with how to tackle it. Any advice or recommended reading material/videos would be greatly appreciated. (They're 3-4kg and have more of a chihuahua build, even if I was happy for them to hunt rabbits, they'll wind up getting badly injured).
New puppy owner here so I’ve watched tons of videos and read tons of articles. I keep coming back to your way. I don’t want to hurt my dog to fix a behavior.
I do need professional help to progress but I know what I’m looking for and it’s definitely positive reinforcement. Thank you Zac
This kind of explanation is really very helpful. I have both your books, but that's the way to teach us how to form the training sessions on every occasion and not just rely on what we have seen. Thank you very much. Keep up the good work.
Zak, I love how you actively work to avoid arguments about dog training methods, refusing to be drawn in to those types of conversations just to create controversy. Instead, you explain why your methods work for you and for the dogs. It's a pleasure to listen to you!
The only reason this guy has views is because he is starting a war between the lifelyhood of dogtrainers and himself as a TH-cam ENTERTAINER.. your just picking a side thats comfortable to you so you have at least one opinion...
@@Aswodel Wow...you heard something different than I did in the video so I guess you've picked something that is comfortable for *your* opinion. Whatever. I don't argue with people who exist in an alternate reality.
The unfortunate part of his video is that he continually insults balanced trainers by using “example of balance trading” that are completely and utterly ridiculous. No trainer would use an ecollar to correct a frightened dog. No trainer would use an ecollar to teach a place command. For that matter, ecollars don’t TEACH. He makes balanced trainers out to be sadistic people. On the contrary. They love dogs even more than PPTs. Please check out Ivan Balabanov. He’s a balanced trainer. Two time World Champion and 14 time National Champion. You can see and feel his love for his dogs.
@@k9trainergsd I agree 100% ! Even with a dog that isn't nervous/scared/skittish, I wouldn't use an E.Collar to try to "teach" anything.. Only to stop/correct a behavior if I can't get through to the dog with a regular lead or prong.. I've had dog's that wouldn't react the slightest to a prong.. they'd just pull harder.
@@mikefrost5481 To only use an ecollar to stop unwanted behaviours is a huge waste of a great tool. I very seldom use it to correct. I’m talking 1-2% of its use. I’m hoping people read this and do a lot of research on the use of ecollars.
Hey Zak, I'm a balanced trainer myself, and I think that you are making some very good points here: "Adressing the underlying emotional state" indeed is super-important. If not done, frustration can build up in the dog, and then be released elsewhere. This is an issue many people struggle with. And we want to always establish a trusting relationship first with the dog, to avoid this. You're such a cool guy, I think, Zak, always upbeat, positive and open for discussion, and learning from one another. Much appreciated!
Lol Zak is trying to politely call out his peers and just unintentionally smacked down the crazy flat earth community. Might want to proactively turn off your email for the next few months.
This progression is amazing! Excellent work. Thank you so much for creating a wonderful guide to bond with our best friends! I also appreciate the explanation of balanced training and the fact that everyone is different with their training methods.
Love this! Every time I've been frustrated or worried and tempted to go the correction route, I force myself to think of how I have set up the dog to fail. For example, my Great Pyrenees knows a recall cue, but he stopped responding from a distance. I thought about one of those vibration collars to nudge him, but then decided to go back several steps in training and reinforce more heavily from a shorter distance with less distractions. Now he's back to recalling from across a football field. Three rescue dogs in, all with their own reactivities, and I have yet to need anything but positive reinforcement. I go at their pace not mine, just like I do for my anxious human clients. It's on us to be creative and compassionate. No mammal learns better when they're worried that something bad will happen. It's like smacking your kid when they get a math problem wrong. They'll learn not to say the wrong thing, but they won't learn how to solve the problem.
Perhaps.
But getting a maths problem wrong doesn't usually mean the child will run into the road and die.
Or that the child will run over to another innocent child and maul it to death.
But then, to counter my own argument, if you're a responsible owner you would know if your dog has aggression and you wouldn't let it off leash.
But that doesn't change the running-into-the-road issue. 🤔
Also forgot to say that I love Great Pyrenees. My dad has one crossed with Maremma. Beautiful dogs!
@inkwhiskers9948 lots of balanced trainers use that as an excuse for using e collars or prongs but it's really just lazy. As OP said, you have to go at the dog's pace and not hurry the training. You start with a long leash and when the dog has reliable recall with the long leash you go off leash in a fenced area, and only after that if the dog has a perfect recall 100% of the time that's when you can truly go off leash in parks and whatnot. If the dog struggles with the recall off leash you go back a few steps. There's no need for e-collars. There are a bunch of dogs that are trained using the positive reinforcement method that have perfect recall. If they can do it, so can you.
I'm so happy I came across your channel. We need MORE dog trainers online like you so we can drown out all the awful "trainers". I've seen so-called dog trainers hit dogs with rolled-up towels (looking at you, Jeff Gellman). Yesterday, I saw a "trainer" tell people to hit their dog with their open hand if that's what it takes. And people listen! And look up to these people. I truly believe a bunch of narcissists took to the internet because they saw an opportunity to feed their egos. There are so many dogs out there getting abused because these people are manipulative and convincing. It breaks my heart that social media lifts these people up and gives them a platform.
End of the day if a punishment doesn’t resolve the emotions that led to an undesired behaviour then it is just abuse. Plus punishment to a dog doesn’t have to seem like punishment if it stops an undesired behaviour. I don’t understand why people have to see punishment as a means of force.
I think sometimes people who inappropriately used e-collars give the e-collar a bad name when you have large aggressive dogs you do not have the time to risk damage to the dog or a human when it is much safer to you he collar training that is not damaging to the dog itself
💯
You have come so far with little Biscuits!!!! Incredible job with her and I loveee your mindset too, your videos are really informative and useful, I have been watching you for years. 🥰🥰🥰💗💗💗💗
Zak, I have been using your tips and training methods, and they have been wonderful! The word "yes!" makes my dog so happy, and he realizes when he is doing something good without the need of a clicker. I think you are an amazing trainer, and the proof is in what you have accomplished. I am a teacher, and we teacher have been told to set our students up for success by making the rules very clear on the very first day of school. If they know what is expected of them, they can do well. That's why I really respect you as a trainer. YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB, ZAK! Look at the thousands of people who are following you. Think about this... If you took an exam (in school) that had a thousand or more questions on it and you only miss five or ten questions, you still would have an A+ on that exam! Stay true to your methods. You are changing the lives of thousands of dogs! Thank you for all you do!
Not sure if you’ve ever tried this or your thoughts on this, but one of the easiest ways to teach a dog not to run out of the crate is by using the crate door as your tool!! Gently and slowly open the door, dog decides to try and run, gently and slowly close the door. Repeat until dog offers a sit or down on their own and then looks to you for guidance. Once they are getting the idea, you can add a “wait” command or “stay” if you desire. THEN give them an “ok” command to come out only when they have offered the sit or down on their own and give you eye contact as if asking “am I ok to come out now?” Works wonders and is virtually harmless!
He’s done that before! If you look back a bit to the Kona series he used that technique witht her :>
I started watching your videos when I was thinking of adopting a dog. On my bucket list: Train a dog. It's still on the bucket list. Two things happened. I found that my local rescue center has a lot of cats for adoption and extremely few dogs. And, around that time I discovered that you can train cats. Mind blown. Different than dogs, but many overlapping techniques and philosophies.
I continue watching Zak George videos because they're interesting (taking a completely untrained dog, showing both successes and failures--very engaging) and even useful to training my adopted cat.
My kitty doesn't really get "no." And some of the things I've used "no" with because I haven't figured out ways to turn them into a successful "yes" have become "yes" in his mind because he gets a reaction out of me. Of course, I just don't have it in me to inflict pain with my "no," so my "no" isn't really a clear "no" I suppose.
Though I didn't train him overtly, most recently he seems to have understood that tapping me on the face gets him what he wants much quicker than biting (play biting, of course, but still painful for me). I didn't directly teach him that. He seems to initiate his own training sometimes! But the directly teaching him tricks (as well as a few useful things like "wait" and "look at me") is so fun, and he often requests training (sometimes by doing a trick without my prompting at all) and purrs his way through it.
Thank you for your teaching--the how-to's and the philosophy behind them! They work with my cat too!
Are you confusing balanced training with dominance-based training?
he for sure is
Oh 100%
I think you should look into talking with Tom Davis cause I feel you are very misguided on what is balanced training vs dominance theory.
Omg yes!!
I love that you opened up this conversation, but I especially love how respectfully, thoughtfully, logically, and openly you've done so. You've been careful to not attack anyone and avoid hurt feelings (which is one of the first places where conversation on this topic can break down - people feeling they're being attacked for their choices and understanding in dog training, which stops them from hearing what is being said). I also adore that you're not going by anecdote, but by what our current best scientific understanding says (it's so easy for us as humans to completely reject current scientific, procedural conclusions for anecdote), and warning that intuition isn't always right, or doesn't always manage to correctly identify what's going on (eg, the "alpha" approach - feels intuitive maybe to some people: the idea that our world works by people (and by extension our dogs or other pets, or maybe our children) just wanting to "be in charge" or "test us," so we have to establish authority, when the reality is that we need to establish trust and boundaries - misbehaving isn't a dog trying to "be in charge," it's just the dog doing something that seems stimulating or rewarding, and not knowing our reasoning for wanting it to do something else). So. Good. I love objective, thoughtful, logical approaches to understanding our world, and (beyond your helpful insights, demonstrations, advice, and knowledge) that's what ultimately keeps me coming back to your channel.
Zak I’d like to thank you for your videos and what they’ve done for me and my puppy! I got a Boxer/Pit mix and even though this is truly my first time taking care of a puppy without anyones help, your videos have helped when it comes to sitting, speaking, potty training and walking! I thank you very much for all the videos you’ve put out and wish you the best!
6:45 that's not balanced training though. it's not disputed that positive reinforcement is best for teaching dogs behaviors. Balanced training is for correcting the wrong choice a dog makes with a behavior they already know. You can teach a dog with treats to come but as soon as something more interesting catches their attention they won't care about the treat. there needs to be a consequence or you won't have reliability.
10:50 that's not how e collar training works at all. Before you ever put an e collar on a dog You first have to teach the dog the behavior and queue of going to a 'place'. Balanced training is still positive reinforcement. Once the dog fully understands the command you introduce the stimulation at the level of barely registering the feeling. The dog already knows the command, and knows how to shut off the stimulation immediately. I don't know a single trainer who just shocks a dog until they happen to touch the place, that's not realistic at all. Everything you've demonstrated in this video are the same methods used by balanced trainers. The difference is a balanced trainer then works on getting reliability.
20:17 I don't know of any balanced trainers who would correct a fearful puppy. It sort of just seems like you have a huge misconception on what balanced training actually is. Bottom line is all behaviors are taught with positive reinforcement. All behaviors must be practiced in several different environments until the dog fully understands what it is you want and you have good communication. The balanced side of things comes about when the dog actively CHOOSES not to do what you ask because they don't feel like it, Not because they are confused or scared. A tiny bit of aversion means complete freedom for balance trained dogs.
Exactly. He doesn't really get how balanced training actually is done...
absolutely agree 💯 with you. great comment
"When a dog actively CHOOSES not to do something because they don't feel like it" - Dogs, wont respond to something asked of them for many reasons. Not just because they don't feel like it. Are they tired, hungry, bored, distracted, have to toilet, have they learned that behavior in that context? Dogs are sentient beings with thought processes. Not something to "command" around. The goal is to always set the animal up for success. When humans feel the need for punishment to happen, it is usually the failure of the set up and not of the animal. One of your first mentions was about recall. If there is always a punisher for not coming back, 1) they shouldn't be in a situation if you know their recall isn't solid and 2) a recall should NEVER be punished as that is a life saving behavior. Why would an animal want to come to you when they had been punished before for not coming? Recall is a behavior that needs a ton of positive rehearsal with rewards because coming when called is so important. I train check-ins without being asked and will train recalls but want them to be used when necessary. I'm going on a tangent about recalls so I'll stop there... haha but the point being, tools shouldn't need to be used if the training before is solid. As you said, Balanced trains the behavior first before tools, then why would tools be needed if the behavior is trained?
@@JurassicWhitney so your saying a dog should ignore a recall if it's hungry? Bored? Tired? A dog actively chooses to ignore a recall(assuming they understand and have already been trained) because there is something more interesting to them. Maybe it's a scent. Maybe it's a rabbit, maybe it's another dog. You can train a recall with treats and get a dog that listens 90% of the time but that one time they decide they'd rather do something else is the time you NEED them to listen. yes, in training you always set a dog up for success, but what a balanced trainer does after successfully teaching a dog a behavior through positive reinforcement, is ensure 99.9% reliability with that command. And because of that reliability the dog has 100% freedom to go be a dog. so while a positive trainer can train a recall, they will never be able to truly trust their dog off a leash around every possible distraction. As I've mentioned before the method for training dogs in positive only and balanced is exactly the same; you teach a dog through positive reinforcement and repetition. Where balanced training differs is ensuring reliability after the hard work is done.
@@JurassicWhitney also worth noting not all dogs are the same. I'm sure someone could train their border collie a reliable recall with treats only and never have to introduce a punishment. good luck using that method with a husky! 😂 Not all training works the same for certain dogs. some dogs are soft, some dogs are hard. It's a case by case basis. But this is Also why you see so many positive only trainers telling people they should put their stubborn/reactive/aggressive dog down because they don't know how to handle them. Give that same "aggressive" dog to a balanced trainer and they'll have it fixed in a hour.
Zak!! I can’t thank you enough. Because of you I have a fairly well trained dog. Redirection. Positive reinforcement. Clicker training. Sit spin shake. Touch. I seriously can’t thank you enough. Your book helped me so much to raise a puppy and your videos are so good it’s almost like having you with me each step of the way. I’m so thankful for your ways of teaching. The way you explain things make so much sense it bewilders me that some people aren’t following your dog training revolution. If I ever get the chance to meet you, a big hand shake and a very grateful smile will be given to you. Thank you again for everything. I’m happy and proud to tell people about you when they ask what have I done yo get my puppy to spin. Again. Thank you thank you. You are truly a special person.
Here’s my take: I believe positive reinforcement should be used for most dogs, almost all of the time. Say, teaching sit, down, rollover, etc. along with desensitization, it’s completely unnecessary to use any “unpleasant” methods. That also goes for anxious and fear reactive dogs who really just need to build their confidence and where corrections would generally only delay that. Where I think purely positive methods often stop being effective is in super-confident dogs who lack impulse control and/or ignore rewards and redirection. (Dominance also falls under this category but I believe it is relatively uncommon as a problem) And I say, even with those dogs, always try positive methods first, only if it shows no improvement would you move to very mild corrections. At the end of the day, you never want a dog to act out of fear.
I work with a lot of confident high energy dogs, I think the problems comes down to not setting them for success in training. Especially if we are not confident in our training and dog handling skills, we tend to want to take our time and hesitate more, where as these dogs won't always wait around. I've taught many confident dogs impulse control - but we dont want to complete supress their fun, its important to give them time to express themselves. I find training with play works fantastic for these dogs.
This is exactly what "balanced dog training" is, I think... I've adopted a dog from a shelter and positive reinforcement only worked with basic obedience, but had no effect on the leash pulling and reactiveness. Just giving very tiny 'corrections', definitely not janking the leash, helped him understand what pressure on the leash means. Its all about what helps your dog understand what you are communicating. This is just from my experience. Positive only for 6 months didn't have any effect, 'balanced' training helped my boy feel more confident in 2 months. He now knows that I got his back and he can rely on me to help him in situations he has a harder time with... As long as the dogs feel happy, anyone should use what works!
Balanced trainers use positive reinforcement too and I feel like people forget this! We aren’t those alpha people who haven’t matured past the 1900’s way of dog training, we use positive reinforcement too!
We use all 4 of the quadrant
Agree 100% Spectral, I have a dog that is hyper aware and lacks impulse control, the minute I run out of treats his head starts sweeping the rest of the world for his next dopamine hit; treats only serve to enforce overstimulation with him. Since my dog is 150 lbs and still growing I can't wait another year or more to see if using only positive reinforcement ends up working out, he must be corrected for improper behavior and understand that it will not be tolerated. Does that mean that I have to shock and beat him? No, absolutely not, but poor behavior is met with a pop on the leash and direction to do the correct thing.
I agree. I haven’t seen much of this channel, but I would love to see him adopt a dog that’s been sitting at a shelter for 2 years and is completely out of control, aggressive and fearful, to see how he would handle that.
Hey! Lucy (gsd rescue) and I have been following along and enjoying your journey with Biscuits. Thank you for your continued patience…. With dogs AND people 😊. I admit…. There are times when Lucy tries mine. However, I know that positive training and love ALWAYS wins out in the long run. ( Btw- I am a 3rd grade teacher…. Same is true for kids… they’ll try you. But love, compassion, and positive reinforcement ALWAYS works in the long run…. Treats work too 😋).
For anyone seeking to use an e-collar, understand it is an advanced and late stage training tool. Your dog should be able to successfully and reliably complete basic commands like sit, stay, come when called, wait, leave it, and place prior to ever using an e-collar. If your dog can not do these tasks, do not jump into training with an e-collar and DO NOT TRAIN WITH AN E-COLLAR WITHOUT THE SUPERVISION OF A PROFESSIONAL. Furthermore, vet that professional. They should be able to provide you with clients who can give feedback about their training, them as a person, and the trainer should be able to provide their credited credentials to you as well as testimonials from previous clients you can contact. If they can't provide this information or are reluctant and/or can't produce it in a speedy fashion, whether they be balanced or positive, DO NOT trust them with your dog. *puts soap box away*
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Would you like to be shocked?
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet some of them just vibrate or make a quiet noise to que them to do something(such as containing them in an invisible fence, or cuing them to come), not all e collars are shock collars, nor are all of them painfull or upsetting for a dog. I do agree that shock collars shouldn't be used though.
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet please educate yourself about e collars before you say such nonsense
Silly advice. There us no such thig as a "professional" in dog training because dog training is not a professional field. It requires no training or education. So, what "credentials" is a dog trainer supposed to provide? All you need is a functional brain and an ability to follow instructions and watch a few videos on how to use an e-collar from experienced trainers. An e-collar is not a "late stage training tool" because it should not be used in teaching a dog commands. Teaching sit, stay, come, and so on is independent from using an e-collar because an e-collar should be used to prevent a behavior, not to teach a behavior.
Great video. Most people like to criticize or mock positive reinforcement trainers, but the results are proof that it works. Keep up the good work Zak, you're a great example to those following you.
Why would peole mock positive reinforcement? o_O
Thw reason people mock them is videos like this bashing other styles of training. I utilize psoriasis reinforces in my training techniques, and the e collar is not ever used as a punishment with my dogs, neither the prong. Many of my client dogs don't ever get up to thst point and stay on a martingale or use just a harness or flat collar with rewards. Dogs don't learn one size fits all, just like there's different types of teachers for kids.
If a dog is a danger and trying to bite people or dogs to a certain extreme, yes, i will implement the balanced out fair correction and then follow that up with intense reward.
Dogs have to learn to handle discomfort, I wish I could say otherwise, but again, same for humans. It's time we start setting our dogs up for success in the world instead of being shocked when the dog bites someone with the handlers back turned.
People only mock PURELY positive reinforcement trainers. I'm not sure that anyone with a dog would disagree that positive reinforcement can be useful. HOWEVER, does anyone really know how to fix an aggressive dog with purely treats and affection? No. Not to my knowledge.
@@workingsables4483 💯💯
Zack even calls himself a trainer while not working with other people and their dogs. This is just a marketing guy trying to convince people of some sort of ultimate right and wrong. Maybe he thinks he's jezus. And meanwhile real dog trainers lose their jobs.
Your training methods always seem to come back to “good parenting” to me. You don’t want your dog to be scared, or stressed, or worried as they learn. You want your dog to be happy, and calm, and engaged, and excited to learn new things. The bond that’s created by engaging with your dog in such a positive way is remarkable. I found it hard not to say “no” in the beginning but truly found that finding a reason to say “yes” made my dogs learn faster. And they’re so much happier. My brother and sister-in-law thought they had a rather stupid dog, and one who was too obstinate to learn (their attitude pissed me off). I returned to them a very smart dog who loved “leave it, watch me, and wait” and her sister who had become far more engaged and less anxious through her own training sessions. They didn’t have a comment. I think this may be the crux of some of the frustration or anger towards positive training, are people who don’t understand it fully or who don’t want to listen or learn about it. My brother and sister-in-law’s dogs were objectively happier, less anxious, and better behaved. They also formed a much deeper bond with me which I loved. I hope more people can see that it’s not about trying to be right or wrong it’s genuinely about what’s best for you and your dogs.
If that is truly what you believe, that it's about what's best for the dog, then as a balanced trainer I stand by you 100%.
At least it seems we can unite over this one ideal!
The goal of balanced training is not to cause fear, but to give the dog direction. Watch Tom Davis. He does great videos and explains this. The channel is upstate canine academy.
If your dog is aggressively barking, giving a pop on a gentle leader or slip or prong, it doesn’t hurt them and doesn’t teach them to fear u. It’s just a quick, “cut it out”. It’s effective and completely appropriate for the situation. They need to know certain behavior r unacceptable.
@@inkwhiskers9948Nah. This may work for “easy” dogs, but I can’t see a high drive dominant dog be trained successfully with sticky positive reinforcement alone.
@@vanessamcgrew4486 We should train the dog in front of us, and change methods based on that, not on what the public thinks of us or what our egos tell us.
I personally see no need to cut aversives out of training altogether. It's natural and not unethical (used correctly). But if the dog in front of me responds better to positive only, I'll do that.
@@inkwhiskers9948 the issue I have is when positive reinforcement alone does NOT work. And because of people being mislead into thinking anything more is abusive or bad training, they r never able to train their dog and that can be dangerous.
I think the problem with this argument is the misrepresentation of what balanced dog training is. A good balnced dog trainer is not yanking the dog around and saying "you'll do what I say or else". They're telling a dog "hey, I need you to pay attention and follow my lead because that's what's best for you". They use tools in order to communicate effectively with a dog. They do not promote abusing a dog. We either grow or break under pressure. A good dog trainer knows when pressure is good and healthy and when it is not.
It's easy to attack an entire philosophy of dog training when you set up a strawman to throw punches at.
Exactly. 90%+ of balanced training is positive reinforcement, they're just also using corrections to teach the dog what is okay and not okay.
The problem might be that all we see on social media is so-called "balanced trainers" using P+ all the damn time. They will say things like "Im using a harmless tool to lead the dog" but the reality is you're strangling the dog everytime he/she pulls 🤦♀️ what they do is far more relevant than what they say, ultimately, and just because you use nice words to describe a technique doesnt mean it isnt abusive to use it systematically
@@melissa2500 Are ypu talking about prong collars?
@@melissa2500 do you know that a dog hitting the end of the leash forcefully on a flat collar, or even pulling on a flat collar can collapse a trachea? A tool used correctly like a prong or e collar to communicate to the dog not to pull before it gets to the point of injury is safer then dragging it around “force free” with a flat collar? Also show dogs are shown on slip leads which in your theory is an aversive abusive tool
@@raylee7566 any type of collar will inevitably strangle your dog. Any. Flat vs prong vs whatever. Where I live, NONE of these are even LEGAL for dogs over 20kg. And obviously, I'm against "hitting the end of the leash" no matter which tool you are using.
I trained my 11mo aussie puppy not to pull with directions and rewards. I use a harness for safety, but ideally I never pull on it on purpose. It works. One of my best friends is a dog trainer and only uses this type of method as well, and it works every damn time. There is no logical or ethical reasons to cause willingly discomfort to dog, especially puppies, when it's absolutely not necessary. Especially before trying anything else.
Dm me if you want proof/videos/tutorials, ill be more than happy to help people stop strangling their dogs for "training". Insta: @murphy.et.ses.amis
What happens when the reinforcement of treats, toys or a kind voice isn’t as rewarding to the dog as barking and lunging at other dogs and people?
This is where positive reinforcement falls short. Literally didn’t matter how many treats I give my dog if I didn’t sternly sit him down on his ass every now and again to tell him what’s up, he would have no reason to listen to me.
I truly appreciate that you clarified your position on training. This should be a wholesome debate between the variety of trainers out there. Personally, balanced-training has been most effective for me (because of the time it takes is much shorter than positive-reinforcement). Naive dogs receive positive-reinforcement (for my company), and dogs that are more entrained in bad behavior will receive negative-reinforcement. Thank you for helping the community, with such immense patience. I know I have not always supported you, but your perseverance is a blessing.
Really good video. Thank you for addressing aversive, punishment based training and the fallout that can damage our relationship with our dogs. Positive, reward based training is the way to ensure a happy dog and trusting relationship.
Hi Zak, I just discovered your videos and even though I've raised and trained 4 dogs in my life, I am so glad to learn new, better ways of doing things. Your positive, very empathic and attuned approach to teaching and training dogs really resonates with me and makes so much sense. Thank you for getting your wonderful philosophy out there!
A specifically for the place command I have never seen an e-collar trainer train a dog with an e-collar to teach the actual place commands the dog is taught using positive reinforcement then once the place command has been taught body collar is used to do the place command from a distance I've never heard of a person using an e-collar to teach the place command itself
Exactly! He doesn't know and fully understand how tools work. He shouldnt be saying such things. It confuses people.
We are in the UK and all the training I have encountered and done and doing is positive and reward based . I started my training journey with a beautiful black gsd girl, puppy training , agility, flyball ( we did not like that). I now have 4 chihuahua dogs, 3 out of 1 , very reactive, but I am having suddenly great success with training, all of them are doing Agility, which is great for bonding , fun , and hanging out with other dogs in a controlled civilised environment. Recall is the most important thing with my chis as they think they are lions and will run towards strangers and dogs, which is unacceptable,I train all the time, especially during our daily walks and hey presto they are coming back to me 99 per cent immediately. Zak your word Yes is another help , it means treats and reinforces what We want . Also, what I like is , you teach for us humans to have patience, let them take in their environment and experience , without pouncing on the dog to immediately control
Thanks for standing up for dogs to not get yanked around and shocked! Treating our dogs with respect and dignity is the way to go :) ❤
Too bad yanking and cranking is NOT balanced training. This guy is a liar
@@justagirlandherdogs615 Are you working as a balanced trainer? I don't see why you're so personally offended in this comment section.
@@FWS_Sinister I do all methods. The fact is I don’t tolerate BS. The same goes who shit and spread BS on +R
@@justagirlandherdogs615 Exactly! All the balanced trainers I know don't shock and yank their dogs. Lol I use balanced methods with my dog and she is well behaved, well trained, happy, and loves life. In fact, most of our training is +r, contrary to what uneducated positive only people think.
@@TheWorkingAussie 💯💯💯
Thank you for spreading your knowledge and training methods. It is so important in this world full of quick fixes and ignoring of the animals' languages.
Now I have to admit that I am far from being a dog trainer. Hell, my dogs train me more than I train them. But when I rescued my Border Collie Blanche, I was hell bent on giving her only positive feedback and I tried to turn her to be sociable and trustworthy.
Now, I could not do it without „NO!” - who ever had a BC in puberty will know what I mean, but apart from a few (okay, more than a few) no’s she only experienced positive enforcement and she is within reason a good problem solver and she trusts me 100%. Even when she’s a football pitch away - a call and a whistle will bring her back. She goes into her place when asked to - call me crazy, but I usually ask my dogs to do something and they know that when I order them to do something, they overstepped their boundaries.
Aversive dog training has only one benefit: instant gratification for the trainer, but it comes with the risk of challenging the human/canine bond.
Most people dream about meeting their favorite actors or singers, but I've had multiple dreams about getting to meet Inertia. She's so special, give her a nice little pet for me. (20 days until I get to pick up my Nova)
that sounds like an awesome dream. I wish I had dreams like that
This is ridiculous and your comparison is nonsense. Balanced training is 95% positive.
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Your methods are my favorite by far. I don’t believe in forcing a dog into compliance using punishment. Your love of dogs is so obvious and your positivity is a joy to watch. I respect that you don’t get defensive but rather explain why you train the way you do and without slamming other trainers methods. You are by far my favorite dog trainer to watch and my husband and I are using your techniques with our foster dog. We don’t currently have a dog of our own ( we lost one in August and one in September), but once we get another dog we will definitely be using your training methods.
I tried to train my dog all positive for almost one year. It made great progress and he is pretty good today. That said, he is reactive to male dogs when he is in the leash. I have tried for months to end this behavior with positive reinforcement, and I couldn't. My mom also walks my dog, and she is 65 years old. My dog weights 40 pounds. One day she was walking him, he saw a dog and he pulled so hard on the leash to go bark at the dog that she fell. After that I searched for another trainer, who uses punishment. In 2 weeks he solved my problem. So, here is my question, to what point should we only think about the dog's well being? And, is it really well being if he can't handle situations that he will always face in his life without freaking out? This is a genuine question, if you can please answer. I feel like he is much happier now, even if we have to walk with a collar on, instead of a harness. But I don't know if this will be only a temporary fix, and in the future it will make things worse.
The question is, does you dog need to face situations where they are reactive and clearly anxious, right now? For example, my dog can be reactive to little dogs. So i avoid little dogs, and i am vigilant in my assessment of the area if i am walking her. In the meantime i am doing online course in positive reinforcement for reactive dogs which have taught me a range of techniques, starting small with magnet hand etc. I am hoping to finish the year with The Play Way, but my first priority is to make sure i don't put my dog in a situation where she thinks she needs to react. Perhaps a change you could have made was to not have your mum walk the dog until you both had techniques mastered? Is the walk really for the dog if they are punished throughout? If the walk is really for you and your mum, then perhaps the dog doesn't need to go on that walk.
Also, i should mention that FDSA and other organisations have a lot of great, cheap course that can provide you with the knowledge to have a well round happy dog, that isn't a temporary fix.
@@candiceallen7967 Where I Iive the encounter with other dogs can´t be avoided. I don´t live in USA, and I live in a very busy avenue. There are dogs with people, street dogs. We try to avoid as much as we can, but we get at least one encounter on every walk. The walks are for the dog. As I work, my mother helps me to walk him, so he can get some air and exercise. I can maybe wait until he is better trained, but them he would have to stay only in the house. Not so sure this would be a good solution. And he is not getting punished all the time. Honestly, I walked him these weekend without one correction. And we saw other dogs. He is behaving much better now. And this is why I made the question, because I am afraid of this been a temporary solution only. Because if this is for real, I really think it is worth it. 2 weeks of corrections (and never all the time. It was always mixed with positive reinforcemnet) to fix reactivity is not bad. He is really happy, walking with much more confidence. I don´t know. He brough this question in the video and it made me think.
@@candiceallen7967 I forgot to say, but thank you so much for taking the time to answer me. I appreciate it!
@@deboracorrea1091 Yes, it will last forever. You have shown him getting reactive is wrong, now, through positive encounters with other dogs [not meeting], just being there, non of his fears came true, his confidence will grow. His behaviour will become the norm. You will not have to keep correcting, BUT always keep being positive.
Love your training and your humility
I really wish he would admit he's a trick trainer instead of setting up dogs to become more reactive later though. 😕
@@workingsables4483 he's worked with multiple reactive dogs and made a lot of progress via changing their emotional state toward triggers. How has he set dogs up to be more reactive?
@@workingsables4483 agree totally. He’s preaching a propaganda narrative. Respectable talented balance trainers do not train this way. Especially with a dog he is using in this video demonstration of training that does not work on the real world
Great video, it’s incredibly useful to have the examples of how you tackle real life situations vs instinctive (lets face it for most people we default to ‘no’ before our brain has assessed the situation fully) reactions. Just having the conversation as you train each thing is SO helpful, because when you are in the moment and getting frustrated it’s sometimes difficult to see a better way even when you know there is one.
I think some correction tools are judged too quickly, my dog struggles with recall, we use an ecollar to help us communicate. however it only vibrates to get his attention I would never in 2 million years shock him or anything remotely similar. I also use a martingale collar to help with heelwork training and because when I first rescued him he would slip out of collars and harnesses. Now tho I mostly use it to help break his prey drive focus on cats, squirrels etc and get him refocused on me and some treats. Using tools isn't bad however people who purposely cause their dogs pain or lots of discomfort to get a disired behavior really need to take a step back and look at what they are doing and why.
I think there should not be an e-collar that gives electrical shocks.
@@laululla I agree it's unnecessary and cruel
@@laululla e-collars are not shock collars nor do they give electrical shocks. They use small electrical pulses that are extremely low, so low that you as a human would not be able to perceive it. Humans aren't able to feel the stimulus of an e-collar until it is turned up to about a 6/7 and almost all dogs in an e-collar work off a stimulation level of 4 or lower.
@@user-md7mk7fb8g exactly.
@@user-md7mk7fb8g
I don’t understand a reason why to sell collars where you could give "stimulus".
In my work I sometimes give electrical treatment for humans and from the experience I know that same settings in the same devise can be uncomfortable to some people when others cant feel it.
Hey Zak, just saw your video. I wanted to connect offline. Thanks Joel
Successfully training (using positive reinforcement thus a positive association) commands like no, leave it, and drop it takes care of a lot of the feeling of a need for aggressive training methods. It’s less stressful on both the dog and the owner too. And I ALWAYS reward crate time, upon entering AND exiting, and even while he’s just chilling in there. He now understand bedtime with the “Night, Night” command and lays right down in his bed inside his crate when he hears it! ♥️
Balanced dog training is not this at all. Balanced doesn't mean no reward it means fair consequence for behavior followed by showing the appropriate behavior and then rewarding.
@@workingsables4483 Exactly.
@@workingsables4483 Yep! I used balanced with my dog, and I use treats and rewards all the time. It's sad trainers like Zak spread damaging information about balanced training.
@@TheWorkingAussie ok. So explain what 'balanced' training is then?
@@nomoretax Balanced is using all 4 quadrants of training, Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. It's also using what works for the individual dog, dogs are not all the same and require different approaches. And contrary to what uneducated people say, we do use +r using treats, praise, toys, etc.
I hear a lot that the science says that the possitive reinforcement is the most effective way to train train any dog regardless of the behavior problems it may have. But the thing is I don't see you or any pure possitive trainer working with big aggresive dogs. But then I see the "so called balanced trainers" working with that type of dog all the time. Usually these balanced trainers get to work with dogs that have passed through many pure possitive trainers that have failed before. I love science, but I see that studies about dog training are not very trust worthy. I've never seen a dog study that meassures the effectiveness of different dog training systems that considers the dog temperament and drive, the level of distractions in the enviroment and dog's behavioral problems. Without taking these variables into consideration any study would be little more than trash.
You are believing that these dogs are “aggressive “because they are being placed in situations that caused them to behave aggressively. The reason you don’t see positive trainers have these outbursts are because they know how to keep a dog under threshold and counter condition them and manage them and desensitize them. I do this all the time on my channel. Keep in mind that dogs are not aggressive but sometimes behave aggressively depending upon context and that is the key! I have many examples of working with bite history dogs on my channel. Hope this helps!
@@zakgeorge It would be nice to see that in a future series you pick a dog that is in danger to be put down due to agressive behavior. I don't say it with bad intensions If possitive training can help this type of dogs I'd love to see it :)
@@kira1823 Yes! I would love to see this!
@@kira1823 all due respect to Zak, I don't think he's qualified to take on a case like that. An aggression case in danger of BE is a task for a behavior consultant at minimum.
Whether it’s situational or not, it is extremely difficult to control everything about the dog. That’s not real life. I’ve been training with purely positive trainers, and my dog has the same issues. Is positive training ideal? Yes. Is every situation or owner ideal? No. We don’t live in a perfect world. Am I going to use punitive measures? No. Am I going to be abusive? No. But real life says that if a dog cannot behave in spite of the situation, he’s going to be put down. I’ve had three vets suggest that for my dog. I choose one more best effort, and that’s going to cost me a LOT of money. More than the dog’s worth, but i have to try because at this point, the purely positive dog trainers have me so guilt ridden and torn up about everything that I’m completely useless, or feel that way. So is a Gentle Leader aversive? Even some purely positive trainers are okay with them. I’ve used one on all but my first two dogs, and my first dog was a gift from God. She was perfect for a first timer. Was she dominant? Ask any dog around who the boss was. It was her! Definitely not aggressive but the boss except for my husband. She accepted me as having authority too. Will I use an e-collar? Heck no! I’ve seen dogs harmed. Will I correct a dog? Yes. Do I think it’s awesome to watch you work? Yes. However, I put my kids into timeout many times; nose and toes was a routine thing because it gave me time to cool down after they misbehaved. Then I could work with them positively. Same thing with my dog. He’s not going to whatever he wants. He’s going to behave and he’s going to work within the constraints of my lifestyle.Sometimes that may take more correction, often it takes an incredible amount of calm, and it always takes patience. Quick fixes are no good, but my dog must obey the rules.
I used the crate with my dog as a pup and he hated it but it was needed for house training, recovery from being neutered, feeding, or if I was boarding a dog at my house so my pup can observe my well trained lab greet other dogs so he learns proper etiquette when greeting dogs. He doesn't like the crate and I've tried to have him associate the crate with good things. I also used the crate to give my dogs and those being boarded a space to settle and take a break from the action. Some dogs feel a bit stressed in a crate but the crate has helped with a lot of issues and helped prevent issues with other pets and people. It helped with making my neutered pup become less aggressive with intact dogs.
Zak George if your methods were as superior as you present them to be, you wouldn't feel the need to belittle other methods. It's easy to compare your methods to others and make it sound great when no one is there to disagree. Let's see you have a discussion with other successful trainers that may be critical of your methods. You are disrespectful to a large group of people that have earned respect through their success in the dog training world. You are condescending in your tone and the way your present your view of those that train different from you. I've been training dogs for over 25 years now. I'm still learning. You learn by having people challenge your ideas, not by presuming you already know everything. You will not grow as a trainer by only listening and talking to those who agree with you. Either open up to having discussions outside of your own videos with people that will challenge your thinking or stop talking about the people you won't face.
As a balanced dog trainer I agree with a lot of what you’re saying in this video. But good balanced trainers don’t use terms like alpha or dominance almost ever. That’s not that’s just bad outdated training. Good balanced trainers use PR 90 percent of the time. But there are times where corrections are appropriate. Life is stress. It’s not all flowers and rainbows so why are we trying to create this illusion for our dogs. If we don’t teach our dogs how to deal with stress, we are doing a huge disservice to them. That being said, I crate train cute little puppies almost exactly the same as you do. And rarely use the word NO because i make NO actually mean something. Balanced trainers are a lot like PR Only trainers. We are just not as limited in what cases we can work with. Im still looking forward to your video showing how you train a truly aggressive dog. or how you reliably off leash train a dog to recall off of any distraction. That’s life saving training that keeps dogs from being put under ground and keeps them out of shelters
Also that low level stim used to condition the dog on the e collar DOES NOT cause discomfort if done properly. Nor is it the only thing they’re working for. The dogs are still to be rewarded with food or toy once the stim stops. There is a lot of missing context in this video. I’m not trying to attack Zak, but instead of “balanced” training being in the title of the video, it should really just say “bad training”.
@@Traeyoung29 yesss🙌
I've learned SO much from your training methods Zak, I get compliments on how well behaved my 7 month old pups are :)
Hi Zac, I always enjoy watching your training videos. While I agree with positive training as much as possible, there are a couple of online "balanced" trainers that I feel are very effective as well as kind. One specifically does not advocate a "dominance" or "alpha" philosophy, but rather a leadership role. In training I use 99% positive but the one thing I use an e-collar for is off lease fun with my poodle. We work in a common area by my townhouse and he loves to full out run, as fast as he can. It brings him so much joy and he loves to smell every inch of the ground. We trained together using the "pager", (which feels like a phone vibrating). He is almost 2 years old and at this point I can let him off leash to fetch, run and explore without worry. When I call him, he will turn on a dime and run to me, and if he hesitates, I just give him a quick page and he comes tearing to me, but not because he is afraid. There is so much excitement as he runs to me for the waiting treat and "Good, come." Sometimes his hesitation is a good smell or a person or distracting noise but when he feels the reminder, he is like, "Oh yea, Momma's calling me."
I feel like you were exaggerating how the trainers I watch use "tools" to help people fix their own behaviours, in order to give themselves and their dogs a healthier, happier life. It goes back to how the owner is handling the dog. Unfortunately, we don't all have access to trainers like you. I took my dog to a trainer who said she used only positive training. We worked on loose leash training in a park and my miniature poodle could not contain himself and was uninterested in treats. The trainer took him from me and starting walking with him, and after a couple of minutes gave him a few good pops on the leash. I was not happy because she also will not allow the use of slip leashes in her class. A slip leash will not hurt him but a few good pops with a flat collar might. Anyway, I just wanted to say if positive only training worked for every owner, there would be no need for balanced training. Keep up the good work, I learn something new from you all the time, and for those of us who need to "correct" our pups sometimes, don't be too harsh. :)
I agree 100% with zak when it pertains to pets . My concern is that the dogs in shelters that will be put to sleep if their behavior is not corrected . 390,000 dogs will be put to sleep this year. If a balance trainer can get a dog adopted from a shelter that other wise would be put down . Maybe balance training should be considered in certain circumstances. Great video as always .
The problem is... balanced training suppresses behavior. So, if balanced training is used to get dogs adopted, then unexperienced owners could have a ticking time bomb in their household. It is a tricky subject unfortunately.. :/
@@JurassicWhitney A good balanced trainer does more than just suppress behaviour. Initially it is suppressed, but over time you teach the dog to understand a correction, to which then it is less aversive to the dog because it understands what it means. After that, you then work on the underlying issues. But you have to address the problems before you can address the emotional underlying issues!
@@m13l because you teach them what is desirable… just because you correct a behaviour doesn’t mean it’s fixed. It means you can then work on changing the dogs underlying emotional response via positive reinforcement
I think you have the best attitude. Your respect of the animal and the patience it takes is not fror everyone of course. You are a wonderful dog trainer and I learn so much from you. Thank you.
First of all I like your videos and approach, however Balance dog trainers are needed and I see many misconceptions in your comments.
For example regarding "electric collars" they are not supposed to be use to train any behaviours, the dog must know the behaviour and the e collar is only there for safety, no matter how good your recall is if your dog is half a mile away from you and sees a trigger and doesn't respond to your voice commands, you must have a way of getting their attention, the e collar is just that like a touch in their shoulder from distance, no a torture device. Also e collars bought for $20 are crap and will shock a dog. People should buy good quality top of the spec ones and always learn how to actually work with an e collar.
Same goes for any tool, prong collars are brilliant tools for big pulling dogs, no they don't hurt if use correctly quite the opposite as it distributes the pressure and don't sit in the middle of the neck, hurting their traquea but high up behind the ears. Again blame the users who don't know how to instead of the tool.
Also it will be nice to see you dealing with a dog that is aggressive to humans, dogs, motorbikes anything, I am not talking mere reactivity here but dogs that will go for the bite and how would you deal with them with positive reinforcement only?
I am talking from experience here, my dog due to his past, was reactive to everything and everyone but not your typical reactivity where the dog react, he will go for the bite.
I had 4 trainers which all fail him, lots of $$$$$, (one of them wouldn't even come closer to my dog, who always wears his muzzle when meeting people or out and about)Finally found a brilliant balance trainer who help us enormously to the point where he could start walking with other dogs, be around people (as long as people actually listened to my instructions). He now can be off leash playing ball in a park and the minute I see another dog I can recall with 100% and he is not putting me in hospital with broken bones anymore due to his pulling either.
Anyways my point is that probably for the majority of the dogs a totally positive approach might work, but there are some cases were it doesn't, and there have to be solutions for them too other than euthanasia.
Keep up your good work with your training videos
This is the best thing for new dog owners. You can really kill the spirit of a dog by yelling no and physical discouragement. During dog training there is just as much training and restraint for the human to learn as the dog. I have seen people beat their dog because the dog couldn’t show restraint. How about the persons restraint? They couldn’t restrain enough to not beat the dog. People say you must show you are the alpha. I want my dog to know we are friends and want the dog to want to do things to make me happy. Just like I want to do things to make him happy. I’m no dog trainer. I’m just a person who lives with a dog. I love your videos and hope to keep my pup as happy as biscuit
Why is it always aversives vs positive reinforcement? A good balanced trainer will use mostly positive reinforcement. Studies always show aversive vs R+ so yeah R+ is always going to come out on top. There needs to be studies showing R+ with the occasional aversive. Despite what some people think, balanced dog owners use aversives to maximize the dog's quality of life. Aversives have helped so many dogs when R+ alone wasn't helping. Aversives can bring clarity to a dog's life and help lower frustration and stress when used properly. Many reactive dogs can stress themselves out the whole training session and that's not healthy. A simple leash pop paired with counter conditioning around triggers can lead to a positive training environment. You will never be the most interesting thing to your dog. If your dog doesn't have consequences, then why would they listen when something else is more interesting? That could easily turn into a life or death situation.
Zak is my favorite dog trainer. There are lots of dog training videos with different methods out there, but I consistently get the best results with your positive philosophy. Thanks Zak!
Since you have a lot of subscribers im reaching out to you. Could you pls make a video about fake rescue channels like "pet rescue channel"? Make people aware of the problem and let them know how to recognize these fake videos. We should all know about this so we can unite and report these channels and stop their business!!
Why don’t you go and work with a good balanced trainer and then talk about it? Because all you’re doing is talking about a controversial subject without even having both sides to talk from! At least go and watch/learn before having an opinion!
Yes!! He is unfortunately misleading all his fans/followers...
Believe it or not, I have been through your exact line of logic many times in the past! There is no doubt that there are plenty of trainers who use aversive methods in their training can get results. And very often there may even be no negative side effects with their training methods.
The thing is that there is a whole scientific area of study dedicated to learning theory and dogs. And what we continue to learn is that aversive corrections may inhibit progress. Whether or not I am educated on a controversial subject is beside the point. For the sake of argument, let’s say I’ve never trained a dog at all. Those who are highly educated on this topic, in large part, continue to show us (through actual data and not anecdotes) that minimizing or even doing our best to eliminate aversives is strongly correlated with more optimal results particularly when we take the welfare of a dog into account. By no means am I suggesting that “balanced“ trainers are abusive or have bad intentions. In fact, I would say that “balanced“ training is a very intuitive way to train a dog. But as I said in the video, intuition doesn’t always tell the whole story. I continue to keep an eye on the latest scientific studies on this topic and I am prepared to throw everything out if new and compelling data comes forward. My interest in this is not just to be “right“. I really want to be the best trainer that I can and be as responsible as I can with my audience.
There is not one governing body in the field of dog behavior at the highest levels that recommend the use of aversives in training. In other words, we can strongly correlate one’s level of formal education and study on this topic with recommendations against the use of using aversives. If you can explain to me why I should “go and work with a good balanced trainer“ and allow that to be a substitute for taking the advice of those who have made it their life‘s work to more broadly understand this topic then I am all ears. But even if I do go and work with a good “balanced “trainer and they are amazing in every way, those methods still need to be filtered through the scientific method and looked at from as many angles as possible including the long-term welfare of the dog.
Biscuits is very intelligent ! 🥰 And she is so cute !
With my pup the “look at me” command was key to all other training. They want your attention and want to please you. Our challenge is always build on this in a healthy way. Gracie Jane is my joy.
Although I don’t agree with your training philosophy, I admire how you still show in other videos your mistakes and explain what you could have done better. I like how in this video you respectfully disagreed without bashing. Because we can disagree and that’s okay! It’s more about how we do it.
Thanks to balanced training, my dog is no longer living his life connected to a leash. Off leash for the win! 🐶
If I had a problem then I would not have taken the time to write this. Keep Going"He who does not make mistakes makes nothing"
Acknowledging my kids good behavior with a reward may have worked for good behavior but ignoring their bad behavior only encouraged more undesirable behavior.
Good comment! Simply ignoring bad behavior isn’t what I typically recommend. Managing and preventing unwanted behavior in addition to encouraging incompatible alternative behaviors tends to go a long way!
@@zakgeorge We live in a world where that's not always possible though. And some of us have dogs that have those bad behaviors already well integrated.
And many positive trainers do recommend to ignore bad behavior.
Exactly! And “trainers” like ZG are the ones recommending that people euthanize their family pets because they can’t “encourage” a dog out of bad behaviors. Some dogs respond well to positive only. Awesome. Not all of them. My dogs behavior was NOT fear based, as determined by the positive only trainers I started with. But I took my dog to positive only trainers because if the grief I was given for considering balanced training. All three of them told me to euthanize my dog because he was “too aggressive to be helped.” Within ONE single session with my first balanced trainer, I got the tools to help my dog. And now, my dog is trustworthy and living his happiest life with me.
I studied psychology in undergrad and graduate school. One thing that comes to mind when watching this video is that positive rewards are the most effective tool for behavior modification and either positive or negative punishment are both less effective in the long term then either positive or negative rewards.
👏👏👏 Realizing that I could effectively train/communicate with a dog without causing them pain (thanks to your videos) is one of the main reasons why I decided to keep my foster pup. I understood that there was a way to keep us both happy and comfortable. I’m so grateful for these videos.
Question for you, this 18 week old pup is still going through biting phases. I am following your recommendations to exercise, redirect to an appropriate item, teach how hard is acceptable to bite, go into a training session, or give him some alone time. Unfortunately the thing that works best is having Bear do something easy that he knows well and then giving him a focus treat (like a kong with peanut butter) to keep him busy for a while until his mood shifts. I’m scared I’m reinforcing the biting by giving the treats. What do you think?
Awwwe.... Biscuit is doing so good! What a sweetie pup.
I used a method very similar to Zak's for teaching a past friend's dog Place. He loved it! It was like a game to him; and I was pleasantly amazed at how fast he learned! I did use a leash; but only to guide and keep him from running off. I did not use the leash for correction. Then, later I had the honor of fostering a dog; and I used the same method with her. She picked up on it just as quickly.
I really love your videos Zak, but one problem that I have with your channel is that you never deal with truly aggressive dogs. I've seen your videos where you emphasis on creating distance until your dog is ready, but you never really go further than that or follow-up on how the dog is later. We haven't seen a dog that you were uncomfortable introducing Inertia to and it'd be great to see how you'd overcome that type of dog aggression.
Watch the Chop series
@@FWS_Sinister that’s not true aggression
@@FWS_Sinister I did watch the Chop series and it was a good example of what to do with a dog reactive dog, but Chop was still able to meet and play with Inertia without a muzzle.
@@FWS_Sinister no we are talking about not just reactivity but true aggression
@@justagirlandherdogs615 they are not mutually exclusive, they work together
A simple, very grateful THANK YOU, Georges, Mr. and Mrs., for sharing your expertise and behind the scenes work. I am bingeing your lessons and it's been so helpful with our new Goldendoodle puppy, Max. We previously had two family dogs, a lab and golden retriever, when my young adult sons were very young, these pups were their dogs to grow up with, they acted as my assistants while working from home for many years, they were loved, spoiled, wonderful, well behaved adult dogs and are still so greatly missed. What my good old boys weren't, was very well behaved puppies, I did not use a crate, feeling it was cruel to lock them in, of course, we had destroyed shoes and clothes, chewed chair legs etc. Those boys needed the security of their own space and down time from the huge world of stuff to smell and taste and the hectic rough-housing of two small boys. It has been a few years now and time for a new puppy. I fully expected to be run raggged because every good dog starts as an adorable but crazy puppy. Your approach is a revelation to me! I've learned to proactively and meaningfully communicate with my new puppy around the behaviors we all want and don't want, and we both thank you. I can see now when I was a young, busy mom with our family dogs before, I was letting them run amock and then dealing with it afterward. Not seriously expecting them to understand my woeful, exasperted, "look at this, no-no, that's a no-no!", meant to stop the behavior in the future, but kind of thinking I am letting them know and one day, they'll outgrow it. They did, but we could all have had a less frustrating time. Fast forward, our new boy, Max, has been with us a month, he is 12 wks, he goes into his crate willingly -usually, comes, stays, sits, downs and really looks at me for instruction, what a difference it has made for my stress level and I am sure what his would be with a lot of "look at that no-no" in his life. When I am faltering, I come back to watch or just recall what I can change in how I respond. Thank you so much for the content you put out, you are positively changing pet's and people's experiences!
All I hear is virtue signaling rather than providing results and a sensible argument. Your purely positive training definitely makes sense for obedience, crate training, and socialization. However, your dog to dog aggression content is slim and leaves a lot to be desired. Not only are your dog aggression videos riddled with pet accessory sales pitches, but they lack the progress that balanced trainers’ videos do. E.g. Beckman’s, Upstate Canine, & Robert Cabral. Your videos prove them all right, a treat and a good bond is not enough to redirect an aggressive dog at reasonable distances. Everyday dog owners need actionable advice, not empty platitudes and brand deals.
I think this is how people should live life. Love your vibe. If you decide to have kids, they are going to be so lucky. If you raise them with the gentleness and kindness of these animals, they will be in great hands.
I am training my first pup, Faora, and you have helped me immeasurably.( That's Samson in the pic. ) Thank you so much!
As you said… as much as you know, we all realized the little you know… and 100%… you don’t know what you don’t know, and hopefully when you know better, you do better ❤️
So, I have trained dogs and horses for a long time. On a small scale, mind you, I'm not a professional trainer by any means. I think positive only training is preferable in MOST situations. I have trained mustangs from right off the range to being able to ride them, and have always endeavored to do so in a way that promotes trust. I agree that the word no should be used sparingly. It's far more meaningful if it's not over-used. Conversely, I have definitely seen animals that are at emergency levels of bad behavior, and sometimes to bring them under control so you can actually begin to train, it can be necessary to venture into the area of positive punishment. (Ex: If your dog is trying to tear apart another dog, I don't feel like a leash pop is out of line). Some people jump right to positive punishment and think THAT is training. I've always leaned heavily on positive reinforcement and praise with dogs and horses, and very rarely had to use positive punishment to address a behavior. Even then, always the least 'force' possible. If you can achieve with gentle pressure the same thing as a leash pop, that would definitely be my preferred choice.
Dont tell them that, it doesnt work with their straw man. They would rather point you to all their studies that PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that a puppy would rather learn a "sit" with treats than with harsh beatings. Yes, thank you science, very insightful.
@@TheBurrito171 Lol, because let's be honest - gentle pressure is the same as a harsh beating.
I think you’re a good guy with a good heart and soul...in the end that’s that matters...all of your intentions with dogs and dog training come from love...there is no wrong in that. Great job! Thank you for being an advocate dogs! 💕💕
What would be useful, is a CIVIL debate between a positive reinforcement trainer, and a balanced trainer. Not an angry, name calling, bitter fest, but an informed respectful debate. This would be a useful format to help people make informed decisions about how to train their dogs
I agree. I'm a balanced dog trainer, and am honestly getting really tired of people like Zak talking about a method they don't understand or use at all.
Other trainers have tried to get Zak to have a discussion like that on their channels
@@workingsables4483 💯💯
He won’t, because he’s too sensitive and it’ll hurt his ego.
@@Nocomment552 💯💯💯
You’re using a puppy toy breed dog and crate training as the example to argue your point on balanced training 😂 Bring in a large breed, stubborn, actually aggressive, reactive, intact male and show us how you would work with him on a walk.
Moira the GSD was not far off. George the staffy was stubborn af...
Exsactly
@@jaanaenkerro445 1. No where near aggressive 2. What were the results! Real life results
There are lots of videos on Zak's channel where he's using these methods successfully on such dogs. Just go look.
@@squarepegfb those aren’t true aggression
Our first lab puppy was trained the ", old-fashioned" choke chain with pops etc per his obedience classes. Many lab and lab mixes later, the same organization now uses positive reinforcement, as we plan to do with the new puppy we are getting next week (another lab). We have grown as owners, as has the organization. This training is much more fun for all involved and even more effective. It does take longer at the start to build trust and a relationship between us all, but is worth it.
Balanced and old fashioned are not the same methodology at all, and Zak probably shouldn't be talking on a subject he doesn't actually understand. 🤪
@@workingsables4483 Exsactly
I love the fact how every dog is different to train, when you have a working dog positive enforcement doesn’t always work. A couple disciplines and the dog excels. So your talk about being alpha being outdated doesn’t work is probably directed to training very small dogs.
I would love your take(I’ve been bashed horribly) on a 165lb 2 year old intact newf. I ONLY did positive training for 10 months. I tried to be exciting, up the treat rewards etc. I can tell you I’m lucky my shoulder doesn’t have permanent damage. He would take off at dogs, birds, squirrels, nothing I did when we were out kept his focus on me and I watched your videos a lot. I had to out of safely for him(what if he ran into traffic or at an aggressive dog)have him ecollar trained. Finally I he would heel etc no longer was I getting dragged to the ground. Now this is still a daily work in progress
So my question to YOU(again I’ve been bashed because apparently I’m awful for doing this to a Newfie) how would you suggest handling a giant breed with high prey drive, and almost no food drive??
Keep using and training w the e collar? It seems like your dog understands it so far? Teach the behavior you want first, then layer in the e collar.
Good for you ! I'm glad you did what was best for you ! F the haters
@@Erin_29 we are getting there! I’m actually able to use a slip lead. He does at times go but he will stop. Work in progress!
@@chelseag724 thank you!
@@MaximillianandRubyGrace 👏
“Watching her learn is special isn’t it.” If I’m being honest, I wish I had a human behavioralist who would train ME for appropriate human behavior with this kind of positive reinforcement and patience.
l'd love to see you talk with Dr. Sarah-Elizabeth Byosiere!! She's doing the coolest things with researching dog behavior!
I like your videos but sometimes In certain situations you do need the dog to understand what he can't do certain behaviors. For those behaviors you do need to use more serious methods. Leash popping isn't bad. Just not something you always want to do. No like for example if your dog takes off when it sees something. Leash pops will teach him not at that moment. A leash pop isnt hurtful just gets the dogs attention. The 4 quadrants are required to train a dog. The idea behind being a handler is to be a leader. Put yourself in the dogs shoes.
Can you do a hound breed? I have a beagle that I’m struggling with!
second this I have used many of Zach teachings with my beagle, lol but I would like the stubbornness of a hound breed shown , because sometimes it seems their nose overrides all
I adopted a 2 year old german shepherd that was bitten and then not socialised with other dogs which resulted in him being extremely scared of other dogs. I went to three different trainers that all taught me different ways of “correcting” this behaviour, and it seemed to work for a while. I also went to one trainer that used positive reinforcement, the wrong way I might add, and it didn’t work. People who weren’t trainers also told me to correct him. So I listened to the “correction” trainers and people, and I regret it so much. I failed helping him, tried to give him away to an older more experienced person and after two weeks with him the dog bit a person he had not met before. It was very surprising as he had been friendly with people before this. I blame myself and the correction approach…
I will never make that mistake again, now I even feel bad when I hear other people tell their dog no in a strict way.
I think there is nothing wrong with e collars as long as they are used correctly. I think the dog should have been thought the command with positive reinforcement and it’s ok to introduce it later to proof a command like recall.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I think a lot of people think this way. I would encourage those same people to ask themselves if it is possible to train without an electric collar? And if there is a path forward that doesn’t require an unpleasant stimulation to a dogs neck using electricity, would that be a more favorable path?
@@zakgeorge Do you like to use hand screwdrivers only when electric ones are too noisy? It's a tool, it has great use; you can touch the dog from 500 yards away. Is it possible to train it with other methods? Sure, but some things take longer, or the alternative is not letting the dog go off leash. Freedom is a currency too.
And of course I'm not talking about jackasses that just light dogs on fire for looking at other dogs. Just like I don't think you defend trainers that tell people to euthanize their dog because it can't be helped. We both have bad apples in the fringes of our camps.
@@Flippokid 🙌🙌
@@zakgeorge that being said I have never used one myself but I do understand that they can be necessary for people with stubborn or high drive dogs
@@zakgeorge You had the example of the harnessed dog lunging after squirrel. Rightly said that the jerk on the end of the lead was aversive. Now REMOVE the harness, let the same dog be FREE. Cue squirrel. With the ecollar you STILL have the harness and lead when the dog takes off after the squirrel. AND no possibility of any bruising to the dogs chest. My dog can be FREE among rabbits and squirrels, would go mad restricted to a longline [used in recall training, as you do] Everything taught positively, even intro to ecollar, which is NEVER used in training. She [GSD] is 10x more reactive than Moira. I dont have ducks, I have hares.
I got my puppy in March 2022.you have guided me( as this is my first puppy)through my puppys stages.i have a balanced happy and good dog although she is coming up to her 1st year and getting larger than i expected.it's your training that has got me a beautiful dog thank you.I have to take into consideration the personality of my dog and we gell together.thank you.
I'm glad you're the most watched dog trainer on YouTub helping to educate positive dog training. You're able to educate and reach more people. We have only used positive training methods thanks to your books and videos teaching us how to properly train our dogs. With patience and implementing your suggestions, there has been no reason to consider other inhumane ways of training. I'm sad for those who believe in balanced dog training.
He’s pathetic
I’ve been training for 10+ years and started out as a strictly “positive reinforcement” trainer. To each their own I quickly learned basic training and positive reinforcement doesn’t always work with adult dogs who have a complicated background. Whether it be they were trained inadvertently to be naughty, don’t care for treats or toys or are completely manic and don’t snap out of their aggression no matter how many treats you attempt to give them because they don’t care for treats when “triggered” or don’t care for treats in general. I’m not a fan of “physical correction” (touching the dog in any way to modify behavior) but I do use “noise correction” whether that be a quick “HEY!”, a coin jar or a “pet corrector,” to snap them out of a manic state to redirect their attention. Usually after the first 1-5 times of disrupting them they automatically give me their attention and then we can move forward with counter conditioning, desensitization, etc. recalls no matter how much they are practiced with highly manic dogs hasn’t snapped them out of that state in my experience. I also think it’s about time to address pet parents. If dogs are taught appropriately at a young age when positive reinforcement can be strictly used for “shaping” it prevents having to “untrain” bad behavior and not all bad behavior can’t be corrected with positive reinforcement but once you get past a certain threshold of aggression that’s a problem that more often than not needs training that gives correction. I watch dogs correct each other on a constant basis through body language, barking and or physical contact (biting or pinning). I would rather safely correct a dog without physical harm at home so that he can avoid being physically corrected (harmed) by another dog outside or at a dog run.
Subscribed you months ago after coming across your series With Muira the GSD and thought you did an awesome, job I’ve seriously learnt so much from your techniques and methods. However I don’t believe this positive only method is the best approach. I think that was very evident with the Muayra the GSD. What you did with that dog in 2 weeks was amazing with everything except her dog reactivity, after 2 weeks there was hardly any real difference and to be fair I’ve seen dogs with far worse dog reactivity than what she had. I’m sure that given months and months and months of positive training you could of gotten over that hurdle but that’s not a realistic scenario for most people and I’d love to see positive only method work in an aggressive highly reactive dog.
I’m sure I saw that your philosophy was the least amount of discomfort possible or words to that effect, which is great but genuine question is it not better to have a more balanced approach and use corrections to correct the behaviour as soon and as fast as possible? I mean if it takes 6 months to get a dog over their issues with positive only opposed to say a balanced approach where corrections are used and those are dealt with far faster and the dog is in a better and happier place much sooner, isn’t that better for the dog?
I agree! I also think to keep sending the message that positive only is the only way is damaging. Why limit people and dogs from getting the help they need because it isn't "positive only"? Thousands of dogs are dying every day and pushing the narrative of death before discomfort is getting a lot of dogs killed and surrendered to shelters and preventing a lot of owners from getting help.
@@NakamitsuSama totally agree, dont get me wrong I think Zak is great which is why I’m subscribed, but it feels like in this video he’s straw manning how people use corrections, the whole example of the create and making out like the balanced approach this dog would of gotten corrected for not staying at in the create which I don’t think is a typical of the balanced approach. As far as I’m concerned the balanced approach means use positive methods like what he was doing but when they don’t work or there’s a behaviour that can not be tolerated then you have the correction as tool in your arsenal. If you have a highly dog reactive dog for example, you could give it all the cooked chicken in the world and it won’t give a shit it just wants to get to that dog.
@@NakamitsuSama I came looking for these comments. Thank you!
Agreed!!! I call them limit vs limitless trainers. The goal of all trainers should be to train dogs with as little harm or corrections as possible but sometimes you just can’t. That’s the real world. You need to be able to adapt and admit when your methods don’t work. For example the Moira series is the best example where balanced training would have fixed the dog but his arrogance to R+ training prevented that.
@@JasonLee-vh4cs 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 yes and thank you for correct my spelling Moira 😂 I was close lol
My first GSD was a rescue and was highly dog reactive and also reactive to men. She got corrected for those times where she lunged at them and very quickly learnt that’s not acceptable (I LOVED the dog and didn’t want her getting out down if she bit someone) after a very short amount of time I could walk her off leash around other reactive dogs around men etc she was literally the perfect dog, because those issue were dealt with really fast it meant she could go everywhere and anywhere with me, because those isssues were dealt with her quality of life improved immensely.
Thank you for your videos. I adopted a pup back in February a lot of people have tried giving me advice saying I need shock collars / unpleasant correction.
I’ve been watching your videos for years and the positive reinforcement angle to the training has really benefited us and our relationship with our dog
I’m a big fan of you and Joel Beckman. I’m happy to see you address this. I see myself as a balanced trainer who emphasizes positive reinforcement first and foremost. So it is nice to see us all get along and understand everyone has a different approach to educating our clients to have the best relationship with their dogs. Dog training is better with all of us learning from one another. I just wish you would’ve addressed us as “balanced trainers” in your title rather than so called “balanced trainers”. I don’t think you would appreciate being called so called “purely positive trainers”.
Yessss, every good balanced trainer uses positive reinforcement preferably, and then progresses as needed if that fails - this is usually something the purely positive trainers don't realize. They think we jump straight to corrections and "shock collars" on little puppies, just to add into that emotional manipulation to make us the big bad guys. A good balanced trainer knows he will have to use a massive amount of treats and praise without any corrections on a pup that is afraid of humans. He won't go into corrections. But he also knows that big cane corso that is human-aggresive and has to have a muzzle on and a prong collar at all times, will not get fixed with treats. That dog doesn't care about your treats, that dog wants to hurt you or kill you. A balanced trainer would also not use corrections on a little puppy, only adult dogs that are physically healthy.
This whole video screams emotional manipulation without knowing a thing about what balanced trainers deal with. They don't fix puppies or dogs that sleep all day but once jumped on the counter and therefore need training. Balanced trainers fix dogs that have attempted to kill or seriously hurt someone or something. Dogs that have bitten off pieces of flesh of off someone's limb. Or dogs that would do so if given a chance. Dogs like that get told that they need to be put down by purely positive trainers. And then the owners seek out balanced trainers, because they will help deal with the issue. A lot of purely positive trainers would rather put the dog down instead of trying to fix it by doing a little leash pop on the collar. Absolutely mind blowing.
Show me a video of a positive trainer fixing a massive and aggressive dog that wants to hurt that trainer because he's so human aggressive. Show me how a trainer would do it with treats when he's a whole snack for that dog. Not teaching puppies how to pee outside or a dog who sometimes lunges when he sees a bird.
(this is a rant because I'm so sick of this emotional manipulation and I finally saw one sensible comment)
@@klaraptor I agree the emotional manipulation is out of control. They always make it seem like we are unethical bad guys who beat our dogs and are uneducated on dog related science and research. But it is actually the opposite many of us have read the research and found flaws in many of their “definitive” resources. The father of PP trainer, Skinner, was even disproven by his first research fellow who went on to try to prove whether every behavior could be reinforced and found that you cannot reinforce behaviors are against the nature of the creature in training (aka can’t teach a dog to be a bird). How about that many of their resources on proving behavior shaping use dolphins as a subject which are grazing animals. I mean I could go on about the skewed “science” that is pushed about purely positive training in attempt to demonize balanced training. It doesn’t mean positive reinforcement training isn’t extremely effect- it means it is just one piece of a larger pie.
In defense tho, I will say the emotional manipulation happens both ways. I have balanced trainer friends who hardcore judge PP trainers and take every chance they get to tell their clients that they are useless at shaping behaviors. Some of them don’t learn enough PP methods before imploring corrections. And that is an issue for me. My mentor is an ex military and police dog trainer and now therapy dog trainer - he is constantly telling me how he doesn’t like to interact with modern police dog handlers because they use over corrections trying to compensate for something 🍆 if you know what I mean 😂
At the end of the day, we fix each other’s mistakes. When bad PP trainers are too treat heavy with aggressive dogs and want management to last 5 years plus where the owner and dog are in a state of mental breakdown over the lack of freedom they have, then they seek out balanced trainers to right the course.
When bad balanced trainers are too quick to over correct and lean on outdated alpha theories to the point of creating nervous or anxious dogs, then PP trainers can help righting that course.
Ideally we would all address our own shortcomings, but there will always be bad trainers from all disciplines and at least dog owners have the ability to find a trainer who can help them with their unique situation.
@@shelbelee this is very well written! You're right about the emotional manipulation going both ways and there being bad trainers on both sides. Also a lot of the "studies" are done with ridiculously small subjects groups where i don't think they should even fall under "studies".
I've come across people telling me I shouldn't even raise my voice around my dog because that will emotionally scar him. Absolutely ridiculous. Just like when teaching a child about consequences, you don't just throw treats at them or don't let them make mistakes. That child needs to learn what's right and wrong to differentiate.
I am an amateur dog enthusiast and have gotten great results working with all kinds of dogs. I enjoy your videos, and in my opinion, the most important thing people can take away from them is that as the trainer you have to constantly evaluate what you are doing and be flexible with your plan. It is up to the trainer to make the dog successful. The second most important thing I think people get from your videos is to see how hard it is, even for someone who trains dogs all the time. Reward timing is so important, and it is not as easy as it looks to set them up for success. Not to mention knowing when to back off and slow it down a bit.
However, in this video you state that the terms Alpha and Pack Leader are outdated. I am not sure I believe that. The term Alpha typically has bad connotations to people, so I no longer use it myself, but I still believe in establishing yourself as the Pack Leader. Like it or not, everything you do in your videos does this. You want the dog to problem solve correctly and look to you for direction. You achieve this by rewarding them for displaying desired behaviors. Which leads to the dog trying to please you by doing those behavior. You as the leader are setting up the scenarios for them to be successful and rewarding appropriately. You are also revaluating on the fly to make sure you are not overwhelming the dog and achieving optimal results. By this standard you are an outstanding pack leader.
IMO that term has nothing to do with Balanced Dog Training and more to do with being the leader the dog needs to achieve. I have seen so many people pay to have a dog trained professionally just to have to pay for it to go through refresher training in the future. I have seen this occur with dogs taken to 100% positive trainers, as well was taken to balanced dog trainers. I believe that training regression occurs because the owner fails to be the leader the dog needs. In all instances I have seen the owner does not follow through with the trainer’s advice and immediately starts rewarding undesired behaviors. Which I get, as most of it is done out of love, but it kind of reinforced the point I am trying to make. The human needs to be the leader the dog needs for the dog’s wellbeing. It reduces their stress when they clearly know what is expected of them. That allows them to thrive and be happy. Look how happy Biscuits was in your last video. She really started to understand what you wanted and was more than happy to deliver. So, I hope you realize that I 100% believe in positive dog training, but just have a problem with abandoning the term Pack Leader. Maybe it should just be shortened to Leader, Teacher, or Parent? Still the owner/trainer needs to have a leadership role in the dog’s life, so I am not sure it matters what it is called, as long as the role is fulfilled.
I also saw that someone else mentioned in the comments that they would like to see you train a dog on its last chance. A dog with high aggression and severe behavioral problems. I would also like to see that in one of your reality dog training series. In truth I don’t believe the approach would change much other than adding additional safety measures for your family and taking more time to establish trust with the dog. And a lot more time. I enjoyed the series on Chop, but he was more of an untrained dog that was never socialized because he was raised in the wild versus having true behavioral problems.
ive tried strictly positive reinfocment trianing with my 16 month rescued pup for 6 months and got nowhere in terms of recall and leash reactivity. As soon as I started to use a martingale collar the results were almost immediate. Also what quality of life has my dog got if it takes me another year to get him to the point where he can go off lead or meet other dogs? I would never ever resort to ecollars or the like but positive reinforcement doesn't always work.
Positive reinforcement is a competency based practice-- it works by definition, as do the other quadrants, so if it's not working the issue is with how it's implemented, not the quadrant. This is why it's so crucial to find a qualified professional to help you learn how to use it correctly.
This is no shade or hate to you as a pet parent, it's just important that people understand "R+ doesn't always work" is simply untrue.
@@applejackisbestpony it simply is true in my experience. Not a single R+ trainer has been able to help me and I've tried a number by now. Yet these methods that are apparently deemed barbaric and outdated have worked immediately and my dog is happier and living a more fulfilled life because I did what every single dog trainer told me not to do....listen to balanced trainers. Results speak more loudly than case studies.
@@buuuuuuuuuuuuuu it's not just case studies, but peer reviewed research-- and like I said, decades of it. Anecdotal experience doesn't outweigh empirical evidence.
And again, there are a lot of had R+ Trainers just as there are a lot of bad balanced trainers. If it's not working, it's because they aren't competent at what they do. I also used to struggle with getting results and often resorted to punishment. When I learned better, I got results with R+ and didn't need punishment anymore. I wasn't *not* getting results bc R+ was failing, but because I wasn't using it properly (as many do).
@@applejackisbestpony Sorry. the peer reviewd research here is not conclusive and does not reflect the real world in many cases. If you look into some of these studies they are farcicle.
@@applejackisbestpony positive reinforcement by definition can only be used to increase the frequency of a behavior.... This means it is incapable of removing bad behaviors. The best you use it to train an incompatible new behavior,but when it comes to aggression there isn't a great incompatible behavior.
I love your method for building communication and multiple different obedience reasons and like the way your way gives the dog a chance to think for itself I think that's very crucial imo granted I'm only 16 and I haven't had a dog of my own yet but I've spent many hours watching many different channels and listening to all different types of people and why the way they teach works for them and how it benefits the dog.. On that note that's why I prefer Beckmans method to establish boundaries with the dog I also really like his method but i always tell people when mentioning either of you is that your both respectable in what you do and how you do it.. it's all in how the dog responds and how well you're able to communicate that way of teaching... atleast that's the opinion I've gathered so far from what I've figured out.... Also if any of you made it to this point Than you you're amazing, and have a wonderful night,evening,morning