I left the church 19 years ago and think that Lindsay's final remarks are the essence of it. Instead of reaching out with care and concern to a family that was suffering through no fault of their own (mental illness), the church leaders twisted the screws again and again. They had no compassion and no capacity whatsoever to deal with chronic illness, the things that just never go away. They also made deliberate and hurtful acts against me and against two of my teenage children. In the end I left not because of all the doctrinal dissonance but simply because the church was not making me happy, which is pretty much its core claim. Indeed, the opposite: it was a source of great misery.
I'm a white conservative guy and the church also made me unhappy. After I got back from my mission I entered into a six year long depression that just kept getting worse and worse until I almost self-deleted. It was when I started delving into Mormonism that I was able to realize that my issues were from psychological trauma from my mission, which led me to realizing the church was false. At the very least it's teaching false doctrine I left out a lot but that's been my experience
The church is not the same as when my wife and I joined. 1) No more Temple Pageant (Oakland Temple). 2) No more "Know your Religion" seminars. 3) No more Activities Committees. 4) No more sense of community. The LDS church looks and feels like a corporate downsizing. It's not the safe and sane environment as it was years ago.
Joseph Smith must be turning over in his grave. I am no longer a member of the Church(nor any other). My ancestors would be aghast at the doctrinal changes. ALL denominations have sold out.
I have noticed that members started leaving in droves in my area when they shorten Sunday, and don’t have as many times to meet during the week, it used to be there were so many activities and now there are few if any. A few for the kids, and none for adults. They changed it to more of a “home” church. Well what did they think was going to happen when everyone is learning on their own, and interpret their own way.
Congratulations John for having your own Bubble, I am so proud of your courage and all that you do to support those leaving the Church/Organisation. My love goes out to all of you xo
Interesting that the general authorities title their chart " reasons people fall away from the gospel" The gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Mormon Corp are two very different things. I found the true gospel of The real Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible after leaving Mormonism (due to all of the lies and conflicting doctrines within Mormonism). Thanks John for helping people tell their stories. I didn't fall away. Lol I was awakened!
I was firmly on the "far left" of the chart, which is what eventually led me out of the church following the November 2015 exclusionary policy, as has been the case for many. But after this discussion, I have far more empathy for the people on the far right. I may disagree with how they see the world, but when you think about it they're just following Mormon teachings to their logical conclusions and rightly realizing that the LDS church doesn't deliver on its promises. It puts me in the mind I had on my mission when at times I would wonder why the scriptural type miracles I was promised just weren't happening. Mormonism's uniqueness is supposed to be tje claim that the heavens are open again, after all. I feel even more sorry for these far right folks whe you consider that as they turn to the Denver Snuffer's of the world (i.e. more charlatans), those people will inevitably fail to deliver on their promises, as well. Secularism is the way to go, IMO. Anyway, great video, and I hope all the participants here keep up their great work.
the real Jesus don't matter, just worship joseph and swear the church is true. What a spit in the face of the true 1only eternal God creator of all, sad
WOW. You have no idea what impact this information has on a church member from Ecuador. We in Ecuador (developing society) have basically 6 books to draw information from and nothing more relevant. So, thank you for your work, wish I could translate this or somehow make this more available for Spanish speaking mormons.
So now all true Christian, true followers of Jesus and the Bible, the people who love Jesus more than religion are TRAITORS????? Traitors to what????? Carajo99 you statement makes it so clear that you are a Mormon first and a Christian last. PUT JESUS FIRST!!!!!! Not religion!
I see that your name ¨Carajo 99¨ suits you fine. And your right ¨ I can´t be called a Mormon traitor¨ To me it is very important to search for truth. After 35 years of listening, working with local and authorities in SLC (closely) and serving in different church callings I have never heard leaders talk about and explain certain doctrines that are problematic for church members to understand. The practice is rather to sweep them under the rug and after a while church members start to wonder and ask and I whith them....You will be amazed at the number of church members here in Ecuador that are becoming inactive and even leaving the LDS Church because of the ´inactivity´ of the leadership of the church in addressing directly and honestly these issues.
Jorge, Here is a Spanish Tract for investigators: home.teleport.com/~packham/investigar.htm Also go to his homepage, there is a volume of information there: home.teleport.com/~packham/
I'm an orange bubble sort of fellow. Should I tell my bishop that I'm now an atheist and Christ mythicist? My first instinct is that I'd best keep that on the down-low.
51: "Not meeting peoples needs..." aaahhh...that's what must have happened to the original church and why there was a "falling away". It wasn't because of 'rejecting' the apostles & sound doctrine, but because they just weren't meeting the needs of people who felt stifled by it. The need to progress and modernize [popularize] the basic ideas into what's comfortable for the masses - that's what killed the original Christian church as well as what caused all prior apostasies. Every time a new dispensation is delivered, people soon enough "outgrow" it and find their needs not being met, so.....naturally.
Nothing cultural or anything led me out of Mormonism. The Bible led me out of Mormonism. There is clearly one God (Deut. 6:4), not 3 separate Gods (as Joseph Smith taught). He has been eternally God (Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4), meaning He wasn't born a man and became a god. There are also no other gods formed before Him nor will there be after Him (Isaiah 43:10), thus Mormons can never become Gods. The entire Mormon gospel is entirely antibiblical. I came to the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and have never been more happy.
Why do you believe the Bible but not the Book of Mormon? They're both just piles of paper with human scribbling on them. Mormons never even claimed the Bible was perfect to begin with. In fact, Mormon doctrine clearly teaches that the Bible is corrupt.
AntiCitizenX Because the New and Old Testaments are the most well documented texts of antiquity ever written. They also were written over the course of hundreds of years, each supporting and corroborating each other. The Dead Sea Scrolls agree with what we have of our Old Testaments today almost exactly (with minor spelling variations) that date back to ~100 BC. We have almost 6000 manuscripts that agree to within approximately 97 percent of the New Testament text we have today. That's remarkable. Nothing compares. We also have actual cities that still exist from the Bible: Jerusalem, Bethlehem, City of David, etc. They all still exist, people have lived in them since antiquity. We have incredible amounts of archaeological evidence to corroborate with the Bible. There are few historians that even doubt that Yeshua ben Yosef (Jesus Christ) was an actual person. The only doubt is to whether He was the Son of God, and we have countless testimonies of people outside the New Testament account (who knew and spoke with the original disciples) that agree with it. There is more than ample evidence that the Bible is authentic Word of God. Repent and come to the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Have faith in Him and be saved. Time is running short. For more information, see "Can we trust the New Testament" by John A.T. Robinson or "Sola Scriptura" and "The King James Only Controversy" by James R. White.
Dallin Skelton If anyone distorts the Bible to say anything other than what God intended, they do it to their own destruction. The Bible needs to be read with sound exegesis (reading Bible passages in context and understanding it as a whole instead of picking one phrase out of context and basing an entire theology on it). 2 Peter 1:20 (NASB): "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." Revelation 22:18 (KJV): "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." Galatians 1:8 (KJV): "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Not all Christians agree on every single thing the Bible teaches, but what makes a Christian are belief in the core essentials: There is one God manifested in three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Man is in a fallen state as a result of Adam. We cannot save ourselves from this spiritual death, i.e. *salvation by works is a heresy.* God the Son is Jesus Christ, the *eternal* and unique God (monogenes), was born to the virgin Mary and was both *completely man* and *completely God,* having both the human and divine natures during His incarnation. Christ suffered for the sins of those who believe on Him in faith by the shedding of blood on the cross, who died and resurrected the third day. Salvation is in: 1) sola fide (faith alone) 2) sola gratia (grace alone) 3) solus Christus (Christ alone) 4) soli Deo gloria (glory alone be to God) And authority is: 5) sola scriptura (scripture alone) Many other things are considered secondary (adiophra, Greek for "middle things") such as how to baptize, end times prophecies, etc. These are not necessary to receive saving grace from God.
I'd prefer if the LDS leaders are going to speak about (or against) something, that they drop the vague references and come right out and tell us who or what they are talking about. From his April 1989 conference address about "alternative voices", to the Boise Rescue, Oaks makes a habit of talking about things unfamiliar to most of his audience. Without anything specific that someone could google to find out just what he is talking about, all this stands to do is create confusion. I can understand, though, why some might be uneasy with naming people's names. These leaders have a large audience, a few of whom might be unstable.
Too bad they didn't stop Chad Daybell. This is a real important conversation at 1:24. It makes me sick that this nonsense was not stopped and now two kids are dead - and not only dead but in an utterly despicable manner.
I really like Gina Colvin's description of the compressing hierarchy of the church. I can only imagine how it is going to be when the church catches up technologically and still behaves like a toxic corporation toward the membership.
Do you ever talk about the believing-but-realistic LDS? Those of us who believe the Church is the real thing but gently try to resist the authoritarian-blinders model? I'm that odd convert who makes unorthodox comments in Sunday School and Priesthood; later a few people tell me how much they like what I said, but I understand that they wouldn't say such things themselves. We have a story too.
Regarding aid in the church..in the Philippines if you ask for fast offering you should work in exchange of that money ..if you ask again for 2nd time the bishop ask you what you've done last time you asked F.O😃
If Joseph Smith hasn't copied the whole book of Mormon from scriptures of the bible and then Joseph Smith made up all the names like ether Alma Lehi Nephi.
I wasted WAY too much of my life reconciling my belief about Mormon history and doctrine. I was over 40 years old before it occurred to me that Mormon polytheism turns the entire 5000 years of Judeo-Christian tradition on its head. "Restoration of the true church" it clearly is not.
I recognize that this video was produced in 2015. Times are moving on. We are living through much more uncertainty now. I'm wondering how the corporate model and shear scale of the church is inherently a cause of the problems in this religion in meeting the needs of its members. It may be the scale between the sovereignty of the individual and the power differential of the organization as well as its lack of imagination that is preventing any relevant response and lack of awareness of the true reasons we are leaving. The top leadership seems thoroughly isolated by their own thinking.
This is a church with an addiction to stats so I'm guessing that those stats do exist but getting access might be a different matter. I'm not pointing to a conspiracy type of perspective rather that folks often think "that you only need this info if you need it."
She mentioned Cleon S. I went to BYU And had him for a teacher. Loved Cleon as a professor. My sister's husband was head Of the history department at BYU. Some of the teachers at BYU Used to hang out at my sister's House. John your show is interesting I would love your e mail.
I'm with Lindsay and the agreements... It's just "silly" little rules or policy to keep secret. The more and more it seems that the church I loved and lived by is now being ran by Monty Python writers/actors.
How can they consider "the culture/ites" a problem; when they had the chance to add diversity in race and country... Well, they chose white Utah men ...again....as the only ones worthy to be apostles?!?! I agree these are symptoms and not the reasons people are leaving.It's like "marijuana" is a gateway drug; why? because when someone tries it, or studies it, they find out they've been lied to. So when you compare John Dehlin or "Ordain Women" with pornography or breaking the Sabbath...All Mormons feel like they've been lied to all throughout their lives once they start reading the real histories, or hearing the silly/stupid meetings of the leaders or the bigoted teachings and treatment of different races, LGBT, women, etc... Well what do they expect?
The 12 or others will probably not talk to ExMos because they do not need to. They can use the WWW and programs like this, etc to learn what ExMos think.
They're naming dangerous names? Sorry, I guess I jumped a layer. I didn't hear them mention Bertrand Russell or Robert G. Ingersoll, or even Richard Dawkins!
And Sam harris. Yea that was my first thought when I saw the board - with some of these names/items, the list may as well be endless - why not stick with a certain category: only have those names/things that people may not recognize as dangerous.
Asked 1 of thoses false prophets of the Mormon church where is the Mormon church in the bible , Where is Joseph Smith restoring the church in the bible where is Lehi in the bible where is the jaredites in the bible where is the scriptures Jesus visited America after his resurrection where is that scripture in the bible
1st ! ! ! Just excited and happy to be here. "GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO SAVE OUR FONY BOLOGNA JOBS" Mel Brooks as the "Gov" in the movie Blasing Saddles.
So is Ezekiel 37: 15- 20 false? If the Book of Mormon isn't the 'stick of Joseph/Ephraim' that is suppose become one with the Bible (stick of Judah), and is to be revealed before the tribulations then where is it?
The 21st century decline in religion and the idea that those who remain faithful are pushing harder right, adopting more extreme beliefs and claiming they are “wanting more” are 2 heads of the same coin. Both sides are saying - the church (and in general religion) in its current state are incompatible with my world view. The church is basically between the rock and the hard place. If we looked at this from a business sense, the church’s long-term survival requires low attrition and continuous growth. Strategically the church should push to the left. I think the majority of the middle will hold; you will loose some to the right, but I think a majority of members would welcome or not be too bothered by the church becoming more progressive. The big payoff for moving left is retention of your existing millennials/genZ base, a much easier sell to recruit new members and re-engage non-active LDS.
These "leaks" are pretty cool, its nice to see what's happening behind closed doors. You say its not to hurt or destroy Mormonism but the truth be told that it is your essential goal, it seems like you are hoping something dodgy but yet you've found nothing.
I was made to sweep the Parking lot to get food because my money for food went to tithing. you know public view to have everyone me having to do a service project.
They had the option of either selling you food in exchange for tithing or preserving your tithing as a contribution to building the kingdom. By having you work, they preserved whatever spirituality was gained through your faith, and your tithing remained as a contribution/gift rather than a purchase. If you no longer want any part in it, and you felt it was a humiliation to sweep the parking lot, I would ask for a refund.
I don't think I've ever seen more talk and analysis over so little... I usually enjoy these videos but this was a waste of my time - there was no there there.
Ha ha you must come from Melbourne. For those not in on the joke, when Ava Gardner was shooting 'On The Beach' in Melbourne in 1959, she famously said, "There's no there there." The best put-down ever made.
Lindsay seems to confuse conservative members' opposition to illegal immigration with how they would feel about the mission of the Church to assist the needy. I'm definitely a conservative who supports legal immigration, but I'd never have an issue with not basing our compassion on someone's legal status (quite the opposite -- I'd have real issues with refusing assistance based on whether they were in the U.S. legally or not).
I hope you realize that Jesus's second coming will never happen specifically because he can't get a green card. Obviously Jesus feels very strongly about rendering unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's, so illegal entry into our country would only make him look like a hypocrite.
''Pilate found no fault in the Savior, but he was willing to satisfy those who clamored for his life, considering prestige above honesty and integrity, and therefore he yielded to their demands''.
You folks are very driven to negativity, and feeling superiority over others. So Mormonism is not for you get a life and move on. Your negativity isn't Christian grow up and move on....
It is Christian to try and lead people out of a cult. Which it so obviously is. Only one true God and no other. They have a false prophet which is warned about in the Bible.
I don't think that any of these men are being negative about anything. They're not saying mean words or calling anyone names, they're not doing anything but discussing the issues of the church. They're trying to help those who are lost and confused and questioning the church, and who have doubts. I was a member for 26 years and didn't know myself that this church is complete and utter nonsense. The church leaders are not called of God, and they lie about so many things. They are not following the teachings of Christ and they are certainly not acting out of love and compassion. They are acting as businessmen and out of fear of things that they don't know, or understand. If you don't want to see this so called 'anti-mormon' stuff, then stop seeking it out. Because it looks like you're the one that needs to get over it.
It is out of love people speak the truth. I have posted many facts and documented sources for many of the contradictions in Mormonism to Christianity. Hopefully a seed will be planted. They say anti-Mormon. But Mormonism is Anti-Biblical.
I love how you guys take everything that they are addressing out of context and share only pieces of the truth. To be a disciple if Christ and follow his gospel there has to be a standard to work toward. A religion that doesn't require some sort of Sacrifice and commitment to be better will never help us to reach the full potential that our Heavenly Father knows we are capable of. They are not secretive about the issues in the bubbles. I have seen Christ and I am not going to be excommunicated for it or sharing it when I feel inspired to do so. The issue with apostates is when they claim that because they have seen Christ that somehow they can receive revelation for everyone and are a prophet, it's not true-they are false prophets. There has to be order. I know the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve are called of God-they are the only true prophets. Someday you will know the truth and realize the error of your ways. You can't judge the gospel by imperfect men. The prophets are the most kind and considerate people I have ever known-I don't know where you get your stories from to judge the brethren so harshly. Like I said before. You have a very biased one sided view of things based on only partial truths. Someday you will know the truth. I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church with the whole truth and have the ability to receive more truth because of priesthood keys they have received to be the only ones authorized to receive continuing revelation. I know it to be true independent of any one else. You believe what you want to believe, but there are many things I know are true and you can know too.
_because of priesthood keys they have received to be the only ones authorized to receive continuing revelation_ The bulk of the problem is the the proof is in the pudding, and there's just no pudding. Or in other words, ye shall know them by their fruits, and there's simply no fruit of revelation. See, on the one hand the church claims a monopoly on revelation, but at the same time offers no divine insight that's discernible. Instead you get nothing but speculation and the run-around. You'l be hard pressed to even find a statement from a church leader where they even _claim_ that they are speaking by way of revelation! Whats the deal with this so-called "seer" stone that Joseph just happened to find years before the golden plates? How come expert translations of the extant fragments of the book of Abraham and facsimile 1 bear no resemblance to that which Joseph Smith produced? How come homosexuality is such a unique sin that gay people have no promise that they can never be free from SSA, while a chain smoker can be promised they can free from nicotine addiction through faith? What's the deal with transgender people? Are they really the opposite gender or not? _Real_ people are hurting, leaving, and rejecting the church because of issues like this every single day. Yet all the while, church leaders have provided no answers. The church essays are an embarrassment - nothing but speculation and dodging. Maybe Joseph didn't translate the papyri, maybe he "translated" them (you know, simply reproducing Abraham's material without needing the source material whatsoever). Too bad he couldn't have just "translated" the book of Mormon too, for poor old Moroni's sake, having to take care of those damn plates for years for no reason whatsoever. No one needs prophets, seers, and revelators to be "kind and considerate". We need them to actually be able to deliver the answers that they are in a unique position to deliver. So either they aren't asking or he isn't telling, because they aren't delivering. Either way, the only answer these people are getting is "don't let the door hit you on the way out."
Not everyone needs order from an organization. For me personally, I am happier, more kind, and have a fuller life when I listen to the divine within me, not what is in my opinion an outdated and unpersonalized view of what will bring me peace
Understandably. So many of these people dedicated their whole lives to something that has a massive amount of evidence that proves it's false. Within the church, members are taught to seek truth, so it's only natural for that behavior to carry over after leaving the church, and to want to share truth with others. There is nothing wrong with publicly discussing these issues; they are a big deal. And if the modern prophet actually talked to God, he would be able to give us answers, but he doesn't. None of the leaders do. Instead, they tell members to doubt their doubts, which is, and I hate to say the C-word, culty behavior. When members risk excommunication for speaking publicly about these genuine issues, big red flags should be popping up all over the place. I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to offer another facet.
@@JamieBarrington I was being a troll, I was raised Mormon by my mother a life long member and my dad a convert and the stark contrast between my mormon side and non mormon side always caused me to question mormonism, one side talked about love and families the other side was too busy loving and being a family to spend much time on lip service. When My mom died all I heard from the people talking at her funeral was how all my mom wanted was her kids to be active mormons (we had all gone inactive) and so I dug into both sides of it and what I found left me very angry for the lies and cover ups the church has told and used, I was very vocal and still am at times, and some people would use the line I uses in my original post towards me almost as more proof to them that the church was true because I couldn't leave it alone, they couldnt see the demonstrable falsities I was trying to point out as my reason for continuing to try and show my points only problem is their thinking was "well it must be true if Im fighting so hard to prove it false" that line comes to mind every time I see a video pointing out mormon fallacy pop up. Sorry for trolling
I left the church 19 years ago and think that Lindsay's final remarks are the essence of it. Instead of reaching out with care and concern to a family that was suffering through no fault of their own (mental illness), the church leaders twisted the screws again and again. They had no compassion and no capacity whatsoever to deal with chronic illness, the things that just never go away. They also made deliberate and hurtful acts against me and against two of my teenage children. In the end I left not because of all the doctrinal dissonance but simply because the church was not making me happy, which is pretty much its core claim. Indeed, the opposite: it was a source of great misery.
I'm a white conservative guy and the church also made me unhappy. After I got back from my mission I entered into a six year long depression that just kept getting worse and worse until I almost self-deleted. It was when I started delving into Mormonism that I was able to realize that my issues were from psychological trauma from my mission, which led me to realizing the church was false. At the very least it's teaching false doctrine
I left out a lot but that's been my experience
If you are of Christ ,do ur part ,and not to distract others gospel truth, behind
The church is not the same as when my wife and I joined.
1) No more Temple Pageant (Oakland Temple).
2) No more "Know your Religion" seminars.
3) No more Activities Committees.
4) No more sense of community.
The LDS church looks and feels like a corporate downsizing. It's not the safe and sane environment as it was years ago.
Joseph Smith must be turning over in his grave. I am no longer a member of the Church(nor any other). My ancestors would be aghast at the doctrinal changes. ALL denominations have sold out.
Yep way sad.
Lee Daniels out of curiosity which specific doctrinal changes?
They don't need to interview ex Mormons to see why we're leaving - we all tell our stories online. That's where they get their data.
I have noticed that members started leaving in droves in my area when they shorten Sunday, and don’t have as many times to meet during the week, it used to be there were so many activities and now there are few if any. A few for the kids, and none for adults. They changed it to more of a “home” church. Well what did they think was going to happen when everyone is learning on their own, and interpret their own way.
Really good discussion session. Well done guys!
Congratulations John for having your own Bubble, I am so proud of your courage and all that you do to support those leaving the Church/Organisation. My love goes out to all of you xo
Interesting that the general authorities title their chart " reasons people fall away from the gospel" The gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Mormon Corp are two very different things. I found the true gospel of The real Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible after leaving Mormonism (due to all of the lies and conflicting doctrines within Mormonism).
Thanks John for helping people tell their stories.
I didn't fall away. Lol
I was awakened!
Thank you all for what you do... You help more then you know.
good stuff
Is there a link to just the image of the bubble shot?
I was firmly on the "far left" of the chart, which is what eventually led me out of the church following the November 2015 exclusionary policy, as has been the case for many. But after this discussion, I have far more empathy for the people on the far right. I may disagree with how they see the world, but when you think about it they're just following Mormon teachings to their logical conclusions and rightly realizing that the LDS church doesn't deliver on its promises. It puts me in the mind I had on my mission when at times I would wonder why the scriptural type miracles I was promised just weren't happening. Mormonism's uniqueness is supposed to be tje claim that the heavens are open again, after all. I feel even more sorry for these far right folks whe you consider that as they turn to the Denver Snuffer's of the world (i.e. more charlatans), those people will inevitably fail to deliver on their promises, as well. Secularism is the way to go, IMO. Anyway, great video, and I hope all the participants here keep up their great work.
Where does truth fit on that graphic?
Church Authority needs to show more love to its members despite the choice of agency.
What a miracle. Someone mentioned God and Jesus instead of just the church.
the real Jesus don't matter, just worship joseph and swear the church is true. What a spit in the face of the true 1only eternal God creator of all, sad
WOW. You have no idea what impact this information has on a church member from Ecuador. We in Ecuador (developing society) have basically 6 books to draw information from and nothing more relevant. So, thank you for your work, wish I could translate this or somehow make this more available for Spanish speaking mormons.
So now all true Christian, true followers of Jesus and the Bible, the people who love Jesus more than religion are TRAITORS????? Traitors to what?????
Carajo99 you statement makes it so clear that you are a Mormon first and a Christian last.
PUT JESUS FIRST!!!!!! Not religion!
I see that your name ¨Carajo 99¨ suits you fine. And your right ¨ I can´t be called a Mormon traitor¨ To me it is very important to search for truth. After 35 years of listening, working with local and authorities in SLC (closely) and serving in different church callings I have never heard leaders talk about and explain certain doctrines that are problematic for church members to understand. The practice is rather to sweep them under the rug and after a while church members start to wonder and ask and I whith them....You will be amazed at the number of church members here in Ecuador that are becoming inactive and even leaving the LDS Church because of the ´inactivity´ of the leadership of the church in addressing directly and honestly these issues.
Your name suits you well, you bully.
Que encontra la verdad.
Jorge, Here is a Spanish Tract for investigators: home.teleport.com/~packham/investigar.htm
Also go to his homepage, there is a volume of information there: home.teleport.com/~packham/
I'm an orange bubble sort of fellow. Should I tell my bishop that I'm now an atheist and Christ mythicist? My first instinct is that I'd best keep that on the down-low.
51: "Not meeting peoples needs..." aaahhh...that's what must have happened to the original church and why there was a "falling away". It wasn't because of 'rejecting' the apostles & sound doctrine, but because they just weren't meeting the needs of people who felt stifled by it. The need to progress and modernize [popularize] the basic ideas into what's comfortable for the masses - that's what killed the original Christian church as well as what caused all prior apostasies. Every time a new dispensation is delivered, people soon enough "outgrow" it and find their needs not being met, so.....naturally.
Nothing cultural or anything led me out of Mormonism. The Bible led me out of Mormonism. There is clearly one God (Deut. 6:4), not 3 separate Gods (as Joseph Smith taught). He has been eternally God (Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4), meaning He wasn't born a man and became a god. There are also no other gods formed before Him nor will there be after Him (Isaiah 43:10), thus Mormons can never become Gods. The entire Mormon gospel is entirely antibiblical. I came to the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and have never been more happy.
Why do you believe the Bible but not the Book of Mormon? They're both just piles of paper with human scribbling on them. Mormons never even claimed the Bible was perfect to begin with. In fact, Mormon doctrine clearly teaches that the Bible is corrupt.
One can cherry pick the Bible to fit their narrative any which way you'd like.
AntiCitizenX
Because the New and Old Testaments are the most well documented texts of antiquity ever written. They also were written over the course of hundreds of years, each supporting and corroborating each other.
The Dead Sea Scrolls agree with what we have of our Old Testaments today almost exactly (with minor spelling variations) that date back to ~100 BC. We have almost 6000 manuscripts that agree to within approximately 97 percent of the New Testament text we have today. That's remarkable. Nothing compares. We also have actual cities that still exist from the Bible: Jerusalem, Bethlehem, City of David, etc. They all still exist, people have lived in them since antiquity. We have incredible amounts of archaeological evidence to corroborate with the Bible.
There are few historians that even doubt that Yeshua ben Yosef (Jesus Christ) was an actual person. The only doubt is to whether He was the Son of God, and we have countless testimonies of people outside the New Testament account (who knew and spoke with the original disciples) that agree with it.
There is more than ample evidence that the Bible is authentic Word of God. Repent and come to the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Have faith in Him and be saved. Time is running short.
For more information, see "Can we trust the New Testament" by John A.T. Robinson or "Sola Scriptura" and "The King James Only Controversy" by James R. White.
Dallin Skelton
If anyone distorts the Bible to say anything other than what God intended, they do it to their own destruction. The Bible needs to be read with sound exegesis (reading Bible passages in context and understanding it as a whole instead of picking one phrase out of context and basing an entire theology on it).
2 Peter 1:20 (NASB): "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."
Revelation 22:18 (KJV): "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."
Galatians 1:8 (KJV): "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Not all Christians agree on every single thing the Bible teaches, but what makes a Christian are belief in the core essentials:
There is one God manifested in three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
Man is in a fallen state as a result of Adam. We cannot save ourselves from this spiritual death, i.e. *salvation by works is a heresy.*
God the Son is Jesus Christ, the *eternal* and unique God (monogenes), was born to the virgin Mary and was both *completely man* and *completely God,* having both the human and divine natures during His incarnation.
Christ suffered for the sins of those who believe on Him in faith by the shedding of blood on the cross, who died and resurrected the third day.
Salvation is in:
1) sola fide (faith alone)
2) sola gratia (grace alone)
3) solus Christus (Christ alone)
4) soli Deo gloria (glory alone be to God)
And authority is:
5) sola scriptura (scripture alone)
Many other things are considered secondary (adiophra, Greek for "middle things") such as how to baptize, end times prophecies, etc. These are not necessary to receive saving grace from God.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Did I miss what the rhyme or reason was for the color of the bubbles?
I'd prefer if the LDS leaders are going to speak about (or against) something, that they drop the vague references and come right out and tell us who or what they are talking about.
From his April 1989 conference address about "alternative voices", to the Boise Rescue, Oaks makes a habit of talking about things unfamiliar to most of his audience. Without anything specific that someone could google to find out just what he is talking about, all this stands to do is create confusion.
I can understand, though, why some might be uneasy with naming people's names. These leaders have a large audience, a few of whom might be unstable.
Too bad they didn't stop Chad Daybell. This is a real important conversation at 1:24. It makes me sick that this nonsense was not stopped and now two kids are dead - and not only dead but in an utterly despicable manner.
Another cult casualty.
So forgive my ignorance but what is the 6th floor?
I really like Gina Colvin's description of the compressing hierarchy of the church. I can only imagine how it is going to be when the church catches up technologically and still behaves like a toxic corporation toward the membership.
Do you ever talk about the believing-but-realistic LDS? Those of us who believe the Church is the real thing but gently try to resist the authoritarian-blinders model? I'm that odd convert who makes unorthodox comments in Sunday School and Priesthood; later a few people tell me how much they like what I said, but I understand that they wouldn't say such things themselves. We have a story too.
Regarding aid in the church..in the Philippines if you ask for fast offering you should work in exchange of that money ..if you ask again for 2nd time the bishop ask you what you've done last time you asked F.O😃
If Joseph Smith hasn't copied the whole book of Mormon from scriptures of the bible and then Joseph Smith made up all the names like ether Alma Lehi Nephi.
I wasted WAY too much of my life reconciling my belief about Mormon history and doctrine. I was over 40 years old before it occurred to me that Mormon polytheism turns the entire 5000 years of Judeo-Christian tradition on its head. "Restoration of the true church" it clearly is not.
I recognize that this video was produced in 2015. Times are moving on. We are living through much more uncertainty now. I'm wondering how the corporate model and shear scale of the church is inherently a cause of the problems in this religion in meeting the needs of its members. It may be the scale between the sovereignty of the individual and the power differential of the organization as well as its lack of imagination that is preventing any relevant response and lack of awareness of the true reasons we are leaving. The top leadership seems thoroughly isolated by their own thinking.
This video was very eye-opening. The lds church is more corrupt than I thought.
So you believe thin air?
Scott M Thin air?
My point exactly, this video is corrupt not the Church
Scott M The church is undoubtedly corrupt. Turning a blind eye is not going to change that.
Scott M Turning a blind eye won't change the corruption of the lds church.
Women didn't get a bubble?
Your stuff is intreasting, I'd listen to more but can't spend 1 to 1 1/2 hours daily or even weekly listening, I have a job and family.
This is a church with an addiction to stats so I'm guessing that those stats do exist but getting access might be a different matter. I'm not pointing to a conspiracy type of perspective rather that folks often think "that you only need this info if you need it."
She mentioned Cleon S. I went to BYU
And had him for a teacher.
Loved Cleon as a professor.
My sister's husband was head
Of the history department at
BYU.
Some of the teachers at BYU
Used to hang out at my sister's
House.
John your show is interesting
I would love your e mail.
mormonstories@gmail.com
I'm with Lindsay and the agreements... It's just "silly" little rules or policy to keep secret. The more and more it seems that the church I loved and lived by is now being ran by Monty Python writers/actors.
How can they consider "the culture/ites" a problem; when they had the chance to add diversity in race and country... Well, they chose white Utah men ...again....as the only ones worthy to be apostles?!?! I agree these are symptoms and not the reasons people are leaving.It's like "marijuana" is a gateway drug; why? because when someone tries it, or studies it, they find out they've been lied to. So when you compare John Dehlin or "Ordain Women" with pornography or breaking the Sabbath...All Mormons feel like they've been lied to all throughout their lives once they start reading the real histories, or hearing the silly/stupid meetings of the leaders or the bigoted teachings and treatment of different races, LGBT, women, etc... Well what do they expect?
The 12 or others will probably not talk to ExMos because they do not need to. They can use the WWW and programs like this, etc to learn what ExMos think.
AWESOME Podcast!!.. Way to go John on winning your Oscar Bubble!! 😄🎈🎈🎊🎉👍👏
They're naming dangerous names? Sorry, I guess I jumped a layer. I didn't hear them mention Bertrand Russell or Robert G. Ingersoll, or even Richard Dawkins!
And Sam harris. Yea that was my first thought when I saw the board - with some of these names/items, the list may as well be endless - why not stick with a certain category: only have those names/things that people may not recognize as dangerous.
Asked 1 of thoses false prophets of the Mormon church where is the Mormon church in the bible , Where is Joseph Smith restoring the church in the bible where is Lehi in the bible where is the jaredites in the bible where is the scriptures Jesus visited America after his resurrection where is that scripture in the bible
Thank you Dr. Dehlin.
Once again you are the voice for so many of us who have been devastated by the lie's
of the Mormon "Organization".
Ever think this was a survey done among those who are not coming to church?
1st ! ! !
Just excited and happy to be here.
"GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO SAVE OUR FONY BOLOGNA JOBS"
Mel Brooks as the "Gov" in the movie Blasing Saddles.
This sounds intreasting, but an hour and half, too long.
So is Ezekiel 37: 15- 20 false? If the Book of Mormon isn't the 'stick of Joseph/Ephraim' that is suppose become one with the Bible (stick of Judah), and is to be revealed before the tribulations then where is it?
The 21st century decline in religion and the idea that those who remain faithful are pushing harder right, adopting more extreme beliefs and claiming they are “wanting more” are 2 heads of the same coin. Both sides are saying - the church (and in general religion) in its current state are incompatible with my world view. The church is basically between the rock and the hard place. If we looked at this from a business sense, the church’s long-term survival requires low attrition and continuous growth. Strategically the church should push to the left. I think the majority of the middle will hold; you will loose some to the right, but I think a majority of members would welcome or not be too bothered by the church becoming more progressive. The big payoff for moving left is retention of your existing millennials/genZ base, a much easier sell to recruit new members and re-engage non-active LDS.
Wow, Denver Snuffer is doing the same things Jim Harmston did. What an original business idea...
I love you all!
These "leaks" are pretty cool, its nice to see what's happening behind closed doors. You say its not to hurt or destroy Mormonism but the truth be told that it is your essential goal, it seems like you are hoping something dodgy but yet you've found nothing.
How do you know that is the truth? Do you have mind reading powers?
@@johnpoole3871 what are you talking about? I didn't say anything about truth
Omg Robert Norman used to always creep in my DM's he was creepy 🤣
It is my goal to some day get my own bubble on that chart. An enemy of LDS is a servant of God's.
I got a letter stating that Utah was a sanctuary state. Can someone confirm this?
Mormons. Don't know why spell check insists on morning instead of Mormon.
I was made to sweep the Parking lot to get food because my money for food went to tithing. you know public view to have everyone me having to do a service project.
Is there something wrong with working in exchange for the assistance you received?
That would depend on your definition of charity.
Most Mormons have already worked and contriibuted financially before they end up having to ask for help. Why should more be expected?
They had the option of either selling you food in exchange for tithing or preserving your tithing as a contribution to building the kingdom. By having you work, they preserved whatever spirituality was gained through your faith, and your tithing remained as a contribution/gift rather than a purchase. If you no longer want any part in it, and you felt it was a humiliation to sweep the parking lot, I would ask for a refund.
What a bunch of baloney talk. I'm sure his spirituality would have been preserved just fine! I am so tired of hearing excuses for Mormon abuses.
I don't think I've ever seen more talk and analysis over so little... I usually enjoy these videos but this was a waste of my time - there was no there there.
Ha ha you must come from Melbourne.
For those not in on the joke, when Ava Gardner was shooting 'On The Beach' in Melbourne in 1959, she famously said, "There's no there there." The best put-down ever made.
How 'bout a circle for "It's all bullshit!"
Lindsay seems to confuse conservative members' opposition to illegal immigration with how they would feel about the mission of the Church to assist the needy. I'm definitely a conservative who supports legal immigration, but I'd never have an issue with not basing our compassion on someone's legal status (quite the opposite -- I'd have real issues with refusing assistance based on whether they were in the U.S. legally or not).
I hope you realize that Jesus's second coming will never happen specifically because he can't get a green card. Obviously Jesus feels very strongly about rendering unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's, so illegal entry into our country would only make him look like a hypocrite.
I'd give up God to control immigration. Even if God was right there in front of me, telling me to let the border drop
there are not only fox in church but also Pontius Pilatuses~
Pontius Pilate was actually a good man. Have you not read the Gospels?
Sounds to me like you are an ignorant Mormon.
''Pilate found no fault in the Savior, but he was willing to satisfy those who clamored for his life, considering prestige above honesty and integrity, and therefore he yielded to their demands''.
As a Christian, I'm proud to be called an enemy of LDS.
Your proof the mob exists today and always has gotten a free pass.
Mos mislit sto cu vas poslusati...beskicmenjaci nevjerni....proud to be MORMON...
"Men doing men things"
Lolwat
You folks are very driven to negativity, and feeling superiority over others. So Mormonism is not for you get a life and move on. Your negativity isn't Christian grow up and move on....
It is Christian to try and lead people out of a cult. Which it so obviously is. Only one true God and no other. They have a false prophet which is warned about in the Bible.
Is it wrong to discuss religion? In other words, just shut up and say nothing?
I don't think that any of these men are being negative about anything. They're not saying mean words or calling anyone names, they're not doing anything but discussing the issues of the church. They're trying to help those who are lost and confused and questioning the church, and who have doubts. I was a member for 26 years and didn't know myself that this church is complete and utter nonsense. The church leaders are not called of God, and they lie about so many things. They are not following the teachings of Christ and they are certainly not acting out of love and compassion. They are acting as businessmen and out of fear of things that they don't know, or understand. If you don't want to see this so called 'anti-mormon' stuff, then stop seeking it out. Because it looks like you're the one that needs to get over it.
It is out of love people speak the truth. I have posted many facts and documented sources for many of the contradictions in Mormonism to Christianity. Hopefully a seed will be planted. They say anti-Mormon. But Mormonism is Anti-Biblical.
Move on?! These “folks” as you put it are literally saving lives!!!!
Such negative people with nothing better to do I guess.
@@nathanbigler I'm quite familiar with my church and I disagree.
Feminists like the Kiwi woman here make me wish the church was true, haha.
I love how you guys take everything that they are addressing out of context and share only pieces of the truth. To be a disciple if Christ and follow his gospel there has to be a standard to work toward. A religion that doesn't require some sort of Sacrifice and commitment to be better will never help us to reach the full potential that our Heavenly Father knows we are capable of. They are not secretive about the issues in the bubbles. I have seen Christ and I am not going to be excommunicated for it or sharing it when I feel inspired to do so. The issue with apostates is when they claim that because they have seen Christ that somehow they can receive revelation for everyone and are a prophet, it's not true-they are false prophets. There has to be order. I know the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve are called of God-they are the only true prophets. Someday you will know the truth and realize the error of your ways. You can't judge the gospel by imperfect men. The prophets are the most kind and considerate people I have ever known-I don't know where you get your stories from to judge the brethren so harshly. Like I said before. You have a very biased one sided view of things based on only partial truths. Someday you will know the truth. I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church with the whole truth and have the ability to receive more truth because of priesthood keys they have received to be the only ones authorized to receive continuing revelation. I know it to be true independent of any one else. You believe what you want to believe, but there are many things I know are true and you can know too.
_because of priesthood keys they have received to be the only ones authorized to receive continuing revelation_
The bulk of the problem is the the proof is in the pudding, and there's just no pudding. Or in other words, ye shall know them by their fruits, and there's simply no fruit of revelation. See, on the one hand the church claims a monopoly on revelation, but at the same time offers no divine insight that's discernible. Instead you get nothing but speculation and the run-around. You'l be hard pressed to even find a statement from a church leader where they even _claim_ that they are speaking by way of revelation!
Whats the deal with this so-called "seer" stone that Joseph just happened to find years before the golden plates? How come expert translations of the extant fragments of the book of Abraham and facsimile 1 bear no resemblance to that which Joseph Smith produced? How come homosexuality is such a unique sin that gay people have no promise that they can never be free from SSA, while a chain smoker can be promised they can free from nicotine addiction through faith? What's the deal with transgender people? Are they really the opposite gender or not?
_Real_ people are hurting, leaving, and rejecting the church because of issues like this every single day. Yet all the while, church leaders have provided no answers. The church essays are an embarrassment - nothing but speculation and dodging. Maybe Joseph didn't translate the papyri, maybe he "translated" them (you know, simply reproducing Abraham's material without needing the source material whatsoever). Too bad he couldn't have just "translated" the book of Mormon too, for poor old Moroni's sake, having to take care of those damn plates for years for no reason whatsoever.
No one needs prophets, seers, and revelators to be "kind and considerate". We need them to actually be able to deliver the answers that they are in a unique position to deliver. So either they aren't asking or he isn't telling, because they aren't delivering. Either way, the only answer these people are getting is "don't let the door hit you on the way out."
Not everyone needs order from an organization. For me personally, I am happier, more kind, and have a fuller life when I listen to the divine within me, not what is in my opinion an outdated and unpersonalized view of what will bring me peace
People who talk, yet say nothing, sad
You can leave the church, but you cant leave it alone.
Understandably. So many of these people dedicated their whole lives to something that has a massive amount of evidence that proves it's false. Within the church, members are taught to seek truth, so it's only natural for that behavior to carry over after leaving the church, and to want to share truth with others. There is nothing wrong with publicly discussing these issues; they are a big deal. And if the modern prophet actually talked to God, he would be able to give us answers, but he doesn't. None of the leaders do. Instead, they tell members to doubt their doubts, which is, and I hate to say the C-word, culty behavior. When members risk excommunication for speaking publicly about these genuine issues, big red flags should be popping up all over the place.
I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to offer another facet.
@@JamieBarrington I was being a troll, I was raised Mormon by my mother a life long member and my dad a convert and the stark contrast between my mormon side and non mormon side always caused me to question mormonism, one side talked about love and families the other side was too busy loving and being a family to spend much time on lip service. When My mom died all I heard from the people talking at her funeral was how all my mom wanted was her kids to be active mormons (we had all gone inactive) and so I dug into both sides of it and what I found left me very angry for the lies and cover ups the church has told and used, I was very vocal and still am at times, and some people would use the line I uses in my original post towards me almost as more proof to them that the church was true because I couldn't leave it alone, they couldnt see the demonstrable falsities I was trying to point out as my reason for continuing to try and show my points only problem is their thinking was "well it must be true if Im fighting so hard to prove it false" that line comes to mind every time I see a video pointing out mormon fallacy pop up. Sorry for trolling
Do any of you have a life? 😂
I can't believe how much time you people spend on your little exposes of Mormon dirty laundry. Lol.