Two Thai Immersion Learners Discuss the Automatic Language Growth Process
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 เม.ย. 2023
- In this video, Beth and Kat discuss the process of learning Thai via ALG. Beth originally learned Thai at AUA in Bangkok and is now fluent in Thai, while Kat has been learning Thai via Understand Thai and Comprehensible Thai as well as a small amount of lessons from Thai Conversation Cafe, AUR Thai, and ALG Thai at the beginner and intermediate levels. Kat is at a point where she can understand native content, but she has not yet begun outputting very much and is still taking lessons with Understand Thai regularly.
To learn more about ALG, please see these resources on the method:
• Theory for Thai automa...
www.dreamingspanish.com/method
mandarinfromscratch.wordpress...
bradonomics.com/brown-autobio...
algworld.com/blog/
To begin learning Thai via ALG, please see the following lists of videos by level (B stands for beginner, and I stands for intermediate):
B0: • Thai ALG Course Intro ...
B1: • Thai ALG Course (Begin...
B2: • Thai ALG Course (Begin...
B3: • Thai ALG Course (Begin...
B4: • Thai ALG Course (Begin...
I1/2: • Thai ALG Course (Inter...
I3/4: • Thai ALG Course (Inter...
After familiarizing yourself with the theory and having tried some actual ALG/immersion yourself, if you still have some questions about the process, Kat has been kind/generous enough to offer her contact info (discord ID: zucculele#6460).
Thank you very much Beth and Kat for sharing your experiences with ALG and immersion! I am only about 240 hours into the Comprehensible Thai content, and hearing about your experiences is very encouraging. It seems like ALG should create a strong foundation to then be able to continue learning via real-world use (native content and eventually production and communication). Beth, your comparison of this language learning method to French Immersion is spot on! I am Canadian, and I've been struggling to explain to friends and family how this is supposed to work, and I never thought of comparing it to immersion. Also, thanks for covering types of content to use after finishing the more structured lessons, I was thinking about how to approach that phase (though it's still quite far off). In the meantime, I like the idea of listening to podcasts/radio shows in a somewhat passive manner, I may begin doing that in times where I can't sit and actively watch comprehensible input. I'm currently on-target to reach 1000 hours of input before a 5 week trip to Thailand in November, so I'm curious to see how that goes. I don't think I'll be able to speak much by then, but I hope I can understand enough. Thanks for all the helpful tips!
Glad to hear the examples resonated!
This is awesome! ALG was my inspiration for learning Icelandic through input only. I had previously learned 3 other languages in school, but had heard about ALG somewhere online. I decided to just sit down and listen to 4 hours of Icelandic a day, and ended up doing it for two years (only 2 hours during the second year). At the end of this, I went online to find an Icelandic tutor, and found I could basically speak fluently without "thinking" about the language (we only had 6 or so sessions together, because I ended up not needing speaking practice).
Anyway, really, really interested video, and useful beyond just Thai. Also: True Crime. I can relate! I've listened to a number of Nordic Noir books in Icelandic, and I'm hooked!
Interesting video but it somewhat contradicts the listening will get you fluent hypothesis. I'm a little disappointed because it sounds like not only crosstalk but also traditional lessons were used. I could be wrong and maybe the only addition was crosstalk. Also I'd like to ask is it possible to achieve fluency without crosstalk?
I am not sure about Beth, but I believe Kat did not use traditional methods.
Crosstalk is an interesting subject. It occasionally occurs naturally/spontaneously between individuals who know two or more of the same languages, and I have experienced that with my wife (who is Chinese) many times. Intentional use of crosstalk as a language learning tool is another thing. The AUA-style really promotes it, but I am not sure honestly. I think it can become a bit of a crutch that can extend the silent period too long, but I don't really know for sure, and that idea of mine has been negated by Kat and others before. We just don't have enough data on it as far as I am concerned.
Regardless of whether crosstalk is helpful or harmful or both at the same time but in different ways, what I can say is that it is not necessary. People can definitely learn via pure comprehensible input and a natural silent period without crosstalk for sure. The other thing that I can say with certainty is that for speaking to really develop naturally, there needs to be at least some environment for it. You will not just start speaking Thai fluently if you never have a chance to speak with a Thai person no matter how much listening you have done. But that said, having a solid silent period is helpful. My current thing is the best situation would be to do the ALG course in your home country and then go live in Thailand for at least a year or two after that.
I checked with Khruu Ying about the name of the book that we read. The whole series is called Suparburoot Jutathep (สุภาพบุรุษจุฑาเทพ), and we read the second book in the series that is called: คุณชายปวรรุจ.
Thanks for this video. I feel encouraged. I’ve been learning Thai 3 years now and I feel I’ve dipped my feet into every available resource for learning but found the results fell short of my expectations given the hours I’ve already put into my progress. Finally I feel like I’ve come across something solid with great results. I’ve already started my hours and online lesson with an ALG tutor. This video has revived my hope as I was floundering there for a bit.
Hey Jase! Glad you found Comprehensible Thai! Please see our free ALG course:
B0: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhlxVi68zFEL8Lu5Q0Bocgbp.html
B1: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhmfpoSHElIO5xfnO1ngpw1L.html
B2: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhn4jBEiVXblWLndmJqxn1B7.html
B3: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhn7ByrkXR3wV3WJ8s2N1opf.html
B4: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhlxrRnSvrwvb8aDnr7z0nzB.html
I1/2: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhmzrF2MlUNc84-QSof-HRq-.html
I3/4: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhm9cz0hon9F2Eol5MAdWxbv.html
I believe this will help you tremendously. Let me know if you have any questions.
Perfect timing! I'm just getting started with the Absolute Beginner playlist.
Thank you so much to Beth and Kat for sharing their experiences with us, and thanks as always to Comprehensible Thai for creating this channel and expanding access/knowledge about this language learning method. So fascinating.
A lot of food for thought on what to expect in milestones in the hundreds to thousands of hours, accent and the meaning of fluency, literacy and not "studying Thai" but "studying in Thai", etc. It's definitely reassuring to hear from people who have walked this path before.
Glad you took away some helpful food for thought.
@@bethgwest Thank you again SO much for your time and insights. Echoing another comment, I and other early learners are very interested in your process for output, since your end result of near-native accent is so impressive and exceptional. Really curious if you did any focused work on your accent and how it's changed over time, etc.
Also your story about speaking to the hospital on behalf of your partner's mother was so sweet. What a worthwhile use of the language you worked so hard to acquire. I hope your partner's health issues are better these days.
@@MikePlus Thanks, my partner's health has improved indeed. It was a moment where I realized there is no ideal "end state" or "perfect fluency".
Pronunciation is an ongoing journey. It definitely started improving a lot when I was working every day in a Thai environment. I was both listening and speaking frequently and had real-time feedback native speakers, sometimes in the form of seeing how well they can understand/how they react, and sometimes in the form of correction or clarification from my colleagues. Even then, having lots of input around me all the time was key so that I was aiming for a quality "target" when pronouncing words.
Now that I'm not living in Thailand, my pronunciation is not as good as before, but I still keep it up by listening to at least some Thai every day. I probably would need a month in Thailand to bring it back up to peak.
And then, even at peak pronunciation, if I was extra tired at the end of a day or sick, I might get a bit clumsy. Though, I'm sure we al have days where we're a bit tongue-tied, even in our own language. All those pressures add up more quickly in a second language.
I love woo-young-woo. This is such an cool idea for when I get to that level.
Do a interview in Thai! It would be fun and engaging to watch
We don't do farang speaking Thai on this channel, but you can hear Beth speaking Thai on Khroo Ying's Understand Thai channel: th-cam.com/video/TwWby0BkdA0/w-d-xo.html
Also, Kruu Riam has done interviews of successful Thai learners in Thai on her channel, so you could suggest to her an interview with Beth.
@@ComprehensibleThai on Understand Thai, we're considering turning the Ask a Farang format into a series of shorter videos. Just gotta find the time to record😅
That's a great idea!
Beth would you be interested in doing a live stream with me some time specifically to talk about the later part of the process, that is, outputting? At this point many people are solidly convinced from first-hand experience how effective ALG materials can be at building comprehension without studying the language itself, but even among current students early in the process, there are many questions related to when and how the input eventually gives rise to output. Getting your first hand experience on that in a format in which people can ask questions live would be very beneficial.
@@ComprehensibleThai Sure, I'd be up for that. Finding a good time to live stream may be a challenge, but I'm sure we can figure it out. Not sure if you have my email (don't want to share it here), but if not you can email Ying/Understand Thai about it and she can add me into the email thread.
35:20 "Native level" is a but of a fuzzy term, but I like the definition I heard from Luca Lampariello, which was something along the lines of "birth status" of your language(s) so not necessarily related to your expressive or comprehensive skills.
Hi I watched all of this last night. I’ve been living in Thailand for 7 years and have tried various ways to learn Thai, and still haven’t had much success apart from the basics. I just get lost easily and freeze up whenever someone says something i don’t fully understand, and i feel like i’m at the bottom of a language mountain again. I can read Thai albeit slowly and not knowing exactly what i’m reading, but it’s the listening part that really throws me off. Maybe I should start again with ALG.
So did you guys use the algworld website to get started? Because i see something there saying it’s 150 baht an hour, and then on this video you mention you need 2000 hours of ALG to get anywhere, which is 300k baht. How much did it cost you to reach 2000 hours and where exactly did you go for it all, as i’m a bit confused about which website(s) you used etc.
I feel like if i had a breakthrough on the listening part i could finally get somewhere, and would like to try it out. Even though i know i’ll be tempted to start speaking too quickly, but at this point in time i’m willing to follow instructions and just watch and listen for 6-12 months! Hope you can help
Hi! Comprehensible Thai has hundreds of hours of free content. Please see these playlists (in order of difficulty):
B0: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhlxVi68zFEL8Lu5Q0Bocgbp.html
B1: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhmfpoSHElIO5xfnO1ngpw1L.html
B2: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhn4jBEiVXblWLndmJqxn1B7.html
B3: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhn7ByrkXR3wV3WJ8s2N1opf.html
B4: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhlxrRnSvrwvb8aDnr7z0nzB.html
I1/2: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhmzrF2MlUNc84-QSof-HRq-.html
I3/4: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhm9cz0hon9F2Eol5MAdWxbv.html
You can also find live lessons from these online schools:
Understand Thai: ying@understandthai.com
Thai Conversation Cafe: khruuae@gmail.com
AUR Thai Online: aurthaionline@gmail.com
ALG Thai Online: dvlong@algworld.com
Advanced Thai with Kruu Momm: m-ball7777@hotmail.com
Once you get to an upper intermediate/advanced level, you can directly use native content that is free and abundant on TH-cam. You only need assisted immersion at the beginner and intermediate levels.
I wouldn't say that you need 2000 hours to get anywhere. After 100 or so hours you should already have a sense that it's working. After 400 hours you should notice a huge difference, and for every 200 hours after that you will probably notice a jump in comprehension. You can get hundreds of beginner-level hours for free on this channel.
Supplementing with some hours at the live schools is great, if you can afford it. The live lessons can be more engaging, since you get to interact with teachers. But it's not necessary.
Good points Kat. One thing to notice though is he has been living in Thailand for 7 years, has learned how to read, and has been speaking to some extent. That leads me to believe he will not need as much time as someone completely unfamiliar with Thai to build his comprehension. People who have studied before tend to breeze by the beginner level in much less than 400 hours.
26:00 hi Kat, can you name a Programming Podcast that you mention here? Thanks for this talk. Really sparked my motivation for learning back
There are two that I've listened to. One is a more formal podcast (@LINEDevelopersThailand) and the other is a programmer who does unscripted videos where he talks about whatever is on his mind (@arm9.).
Hello, I am very interested in following this process because it seems to create more natural language skills, but frankly my primary interest is being able to read. Kat mentioned that she is just starting learning to read and write now although seemingly it is not her priority, and I was wondering how many hours of listening I should expect to need before moving to written content. Is there a skill level or way to gauge readiness for reading? I noticed there are a number of reading playlists on this channel to reference, but wondered if you have recommendations about using them, be it much later or maybe being able to integrate the ALG system with native reading content meant for children.
Ideally, if following ALG, you will be able to have a listening ability that allows you to understand a certain level of native content before beginning reading---like when you began reading your first language. When you learn to read, ideally you will be learning mostly that, how to read, and not the language itself. Obviously---like your first language---there is a formal writing style and some fancy words you have not encountered before when you first read, but the vast majority of the grammar and vocab is nothing new, you are just learning how the language is represented as script, not the language itself. Know what I mean?
But whether ALG is right for you depends on your goals, motivations, and resources. What exactly are your goals and motivations? You want to read Thai? Why? What exactly do you want to read?
Many people who learned Thai via ALG have used Dr. Brown's reading course. Personally, I was in love with the idea of learning how to read like a Thai child does, and that's what I did. It didn't take too long and was mostly enjoyable. You just have to be learning the writing system, not the language itself.
So that's what the links on the homepage are all about. First though you need to be able to understand what the teachers are saying with ease, as those teachers are directly teaching Thai kids, not foreigners.
So after watching for 20 mins, I still don't really get what Katrina did. Did she just watch the free videos ALG put online, study at the school officially as an online student, or...?
She can answer this better than I can, but in short: She started with the free videos on Comprehensible Thai, and then moved to doing live lessons with Understand Thai and the other online schools. As Understand Thai was her favorite, she stuck with that. Then she transitioned to native content, but still kept up regular lessons with Understand Thai for even faster progress.
I started by just watching the free immersion conversations on Comprehensible Thai. When I started there wasn't as much content on the channel, though, so I quickly started taking lessons with the various schools to supplement. I was taking lessons with all the available schools for a while, but ended up sticking with only Understand Thai long term, as they're my favorite.
At around 600 hours (half-way through intermediate) I started experimenting with / supplementing with native material as well.
The schools only offer classes up to intermediate level, so once I was past that I started taking private lessons with Understand Thai at the advanced level.
Nice one, thank you. Is there a list of these schools somewhere?
Understand Thai: ying@understandthai.com
Thai Conversation Cafe: khruuae@gmail.com
AUR Thai Online: aurthaionline@gmail.com
ALG Thai Online: dvlong@algworld.com
Advanced Thai with Kruu Momm: m-ball7777@hotmail.com
@@ComprehensibleThai @Kat Tyvm!
Can you please share the name of the true crime and programming podcasts?
For programming podcasts I've listened to the LINE developer's podcast and @9arm (which isn't really a podcast, but I actually like it better than podcasts. It's a programmer that talks about whatever random stuff he's thinking about at the moment).
Most of the true crime I listen to comes from:
- Salmon Podcast: Untitled Case: th-cam.com/play/PLo6ScKC2Yp9Mlyl_0ckcGfN0VQ-js3Sq2.html two people, stories are scripted, but with plenty of unscripted banter. This is my absolute favorite. They also have a couple of side shows (Untitled Case Gray Area, which is topic-based rather than case-based, and Untitled Case Trace Talk, which is a weekly, informal, unscripted news thing, but it's harder to understand at first because there are always at least three people talking over each other).
- Mission to Pluto: File Not Found (th-cam.com/play/PLej2aZIMyWOcyD_ce7e02dAE-5cfV62SH.html) - one person, scripted, but not too fast and always provides context about who people are. He's a programmer.
- Nan PacharaNan (www.youtube.com/@NanPacharaNan) - scripted, fast, but has visuals that can be helpful to help anchor comprehension.
- The Common Thread: www.youtube.com/@TheCommonThread one person, scripted, speaks incredibly clearly but also tends to use more formal register / harder vocabulary / bigger words. He's a lawyer.
- Tang Makkaporn: www.youtube.com/@tangmakkaporn - lots of different playlists; some are one person (Dr Tang himself) and those are scripted. He speaks very clearly, and also quite slowly. My favorite playlists are where he has guests and is more unscripted.
There are other true crime channels as well, but I didn't watch them as much early on, because they were harder to understand for reasons that I didn't quite pinpoint (worse sound was part of it for some of them, or less narrative structure, maybe. I can't remember)
@Kat I really like Dr. Tang too! Besides speaking clearly, he is a good speaker/narrator. When I run trainings or need to give a presentation in Thai, I often think of/model his rhythm and pacing.
Is it alright that I am looking up the meaning of a word that I think I have understood while listening?
Hi Richard. I have heard other people say they do that. In the long-run it really isn't necessary or helpful. The meaning of the word in relation to the rest of its own language will become crystal clear over time. The hypothesized relation of the word to some word or words in another language is irrelevant unless you are in some kind of emergency communication situation. But hopefully you will have the time for your understanding of the language to mature to the point that you can use the language itself to ask natives about the language---kind of like a kid in elementary school.
@@ComprehensibleThaiSorry for replying in Spanish I just felt more comfortable translate this please.
Es decir que el querer traducir una palabra que uno no conoce no va a llevar a la adquisición de la misma en términos de memoria a largo plazo pero satisface la necesidad inmediata por entender AHORA casi como una ilusión
¡Hola! My Spanish is nowhere near good enough to translate anything (I only have at most ~30 hours of input at this point).
However, our polyglot friend Mr. Google spit out something that sounds pretty good in English (although I have no idea if it is true to your original comment?):
"In other words, wanting to translate a word that one does not know will not lead to its acquisition in terms of long-term memory, but it satisfies the immediate need to understand NOW almost as an illusion."
EDIT: Actually as I look closer at your original comment, I see the general gist given the Spanish words I do know and the ones that are similar to English and anyone could have guessed... It probably helps that Google already revealed the answer though.
Is it normal to make mistakes when you start outputting at 2000 hours? Did Beth experience this?
It's very normal to make mistakes when you first start speaking. I can't speak for Beth, but David Long who ran the Thai program at AUA and now runs the ALG Thai Online school said that he made lots of mistakes for a long time; it got better and better over time.
You may find this video specifically on outputting in the ALG method useful: th-cam.com/video/cqGlAZzD5kI/w-d-xo.html
Kat is Norwegian, but her English is like American. How did she learn it? Thru Immersion?
I was born in Norway, and Norwegian was my first language, but I grew up in a bilingual environment, so I got English for free, so to speak.
@@kat7874 Hey are you Kat from the absolute begginer course? 😆
What's the meaning of ALG!?
Automatic Language Growth. Check out these:
Required videos: th-cam.com/play/PLgdZTyVWfUhlcP3Wj__xgqWpLHV0bL_JA.html
Required reading 1: mandarinfromscratch.wordpress.com/automatic-language-growth/
Required reading 2: files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED501257.pdf
Required reading 3: www.dreamingspanish.com/method
Optional reading: algworld.com/blog/
Kind of was hoping they'd eventually switch to Thai. But no.
Of course ALG does wonders
Not gonna spend 1 hour looking for confirmation 😁
Hey Michel! As a theory video, this one is all in English. You can hear Beth speak Thai on Khroo Ying's Understand Thai channel: th-cam.com/video/TwWby0BkdA0/w-d-xo.html
Kat is still in the process and isn't outputting much yet.
It's great that you're far along; it probably means that this video isn't for you. However, this is a GREAT discussion. These two learners graciously donated their time to describe their experience, which is enormously helpful for convincing more people to try ALG.
There's a lot of skepticism around ALG and their willingness to discuss and answer common questions is really beneficial for both making ALG more widespread and reassuring people early in their journey that the method works.
@@MikePlus Yeah in hindsight my comment was plain dumb because looking back it is now one of the most viewed videos in this channel
But I was expecting some Thai from Beth because she... well she's a good learner to say the least and she had the best teachers I guess
But you're absolutely right
What are non verbals? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Any part of communication that isn't verbal. In the context of assisted immersion for beginners/lower intermediate, the main ones that help clarifying the meaning of the verbal message are gestures, facial expressions, pictures, drawings, objects, etc. At the very start of the automatic language growth process when the student knows nothing of the target language, they rely entirely on non-verbals to begin picking up the meaning of what is said, which allows for the meanings of words to gradually become clear as well.
@@ComprehensibleThai thank you for answering…
If you are understanding 60% but not getting the other 40%, I think it's a stretch to call yourself fluent.
Hi Ned! Can you give me a time stamp so I can know exactly what you are referring to in the video? Once I know the comment and its context, I can respond to help you better understand. Thanks!
Kat here. I don't consider myself fluent in Thai yet. I understand some things fluently, for sure (meaning: effortless comprehension at close to 100%), but I don't speak or communicate fluently.
There is a thing which happened for me with Thai that felt really weird and wonderful and different to other languages I've learned, and that is that very early on I was understanding what I understood automatically-with no translation, even if there were big chunks that I didn't understand. Maybe I mistakenly use the term "fluent" to explain that feeling? If so, I apologize, because that's super confusing.