Thank you so much for this demonstration and I also just wanted to say that the chords you play from about 1:29-1:35 are absolutely beautiful and you should def write something with them if you haven't already (:
Great results with most of them. The last one didn’t get enough LR definition but sonically sounded good. There are so many ways to mix a grand piano. Placement is often determined by various factors such as the make and model of the piano (size mainly) and usage (solo or accompanied) and the sound of the room. If there are other musicians playing, jazz ensemble for example, a closer mic technique would be better for separation. Really it all comes down to “does it sound good”.
If possible, taking the piano lid off is often a good way to improve the recorded sound, since it's a strong reflector that might mess up the sound. Also, blumlein is a nice stereo recording technique too. I've had great results with 2 ribbon mics over the strings. You get better stereo separation than with XY, and being ribbon, the mics will make the sound softer, which is often needed from close to the strings. You won't run into phase problems either, as you easily might with spaced AB pair.
The 214 and 2050 are both fantastic microphones, but using the two as a pair, especially as a close pair, is going to give you issues. I know matched pairs of microphones are expensive, but even just buying two of the same brand/model mic will give you much fewer issues with phase cancellation and uneven dynamic response.
You can't use different mics for stereo techniques. Then it sounds as it sounds... XY pattern is wrong - you should put the mics as close to each other as possible (capsules together same as you do M/S).
Some of these setups miss the point of stereo when recording a grand - to aim the mics at treble and bass strings to give the experience of hearing piano like the player would, with treble more on the right and bass on the left (or reversed, if you are filming the player/yourself from inside the piano). For example, the Blumlein setup (similar to X/Y inside, but using figure-8 mics aimed at the correct strings) is best about 2ft off the strings, midway through their length with one mic aimed at (and away, since it's fig8) treble strings and the other at bass (and out of the piano on the other side). Mics should be mounted tip-to-tip along same axis, not side by side, so they don't block each other's sound. This way you get the strings and room with just 2 mics. BUT..... IMHO, the *best* sound is recorded with 5 mics: 2 figure-8 in Blumlein arrangement inside the piano, aimed at treble and bass strings, 2 cardioid spaced pair at the foot of the piano (not on the side, where most place them, but at the foot!) at about 3-4ft from each other and 1-1.5ft from the end of the instrument, mixed over the inside mic audio at about +/-50% with slight reverb added to the external mics, and one room omni at about 6-10ft off the side of the piano (or cardioid aimed AWAY from the piano, recording the room), mixed at about 10-20% clean or with slight reverb. Never add reverb to the inside mics. This setup will give you incredible larger-than-life grand piano. Alternative to 2 figure-8 Blumlein mics are two cardioid mics: one placed at about midway of bass strings 6" away from them, another placed midway over treble strings 12" above them, with distance between them at half-length of the longest string in the piano (30-40" apart usually). I use AT4040 and AT2050 mics with a Steinberg UR44C in my home studio to pull all this off, and my whole mic setup is
@@FlorianScharnofske I'll dig through some recordings and post something. Stuff I record right now is in small rooms, not big stages, so it's miked a bit differently. I also add room reverb through post processing. I send about 20% of each channel to the opposite channel with a studio reverb and a 15-20ms delay on it. Sounds surprisingly amazing. Often even two mics are enough with this technique. Depends on what you're producing and how much fidelity you want. Solo classical piano is very different from pop piano, playing in a mix of other instruments with vocals on top. Steinway sounds so different from Knabe or Baldwin, Dark bass-heavy Beethoven or Satie pieces are very different from light magical Gliere precludes or Chopin waltzes. Some need intimate sound with heavy attack, so you feel like the hammers are hitting your ears, and I know people who HATE hammery sound and want all the sound blended and airy, so mics need to be far out of the piano. Blumlein produces that airy more natural sound. Spaced pair or XY inside the piano with extra room omnis is best for very intimate sound without losing feeling of the room.
Question please? With 2 mics spaced you can get the high keys on the right and low keys to the left if you want right. But in M/S , after decoding what do you end up with? On a piano for example? If you were to track your fingers playing from the highest notes to the lowest notes across the keys could you get the high notes coming mostly out of your right speaker and the lowest notes coming out your left monitor?
Closepair are facing same direction. They're just close. X/Y pair is at 90 degrees to each other. Both setups use cardioid directional mics. If you use X/Y with Fig8 mics, you will get a Blumlein setup - one of the most natural ways to record grand piano. Internal is set inside the piano and external is a couple of feet away. Some of these setups miss the point of stereo - to aim the mics at treble and bass strings. For example, the Blumlein setup is best about 2ft off the strings, midway through their length with one mic aimed at (and away - Fig8) treble strings and the other at bass (and out of the piano on the other side). This way you get the strings and room with just 2 mics. IMHO, the BEST sound will have 5 mics: 2 figure-8 in Blumlein arrangement inside the piano, aimed at treble and bass strings, 2 cardioid spaced pair at the foot of the piano (not on the side, as most place them) as about 3-4ft from each other, mixed over the inside audio at about +/-50% with slight reverb added, and one room omni at about 6-10ft off the side of the piano, mixed at about 10-20% as is or with slight reverb. Never add reverb to the inside mics. This setup will give you incredible larger than life grand piano. Alternative to 2 figure-8 Blumlein mics are two cardioid mics, one placed at about midway of bass strings 6" away from them, another placed midway over treble strings 12" above them, with distance between them at half-length of the longest string in the piano. I use AT4040 and AT 2050 mics in my home studio, and my whole mic setup is
I enjoyed all of the examples. All uniquely sensitive. It’s great to hear unmatched microphones sound so good together..
Many of your "sacrilegious" unmatched mic setups sounds great! Who can claim that their ears are a perfectly matched pair anyway?
Thank you so much for this demonstration and I also just wanted to say that the chords you play from about 1:29-1:35 are absolutely beautiful and you should def write something with them if you haven't already (:
I like the wide pair ... a very open natural sound
Wide pair ist not a natural sound! Did you hear it with earphones?
Great results with most of them.
The last one didn’t get enough LR definition but sonically sounded good.
There are so many ways to mix a grand piano. Placement is often determined by various factors such as the make and model of the piano (size mainly) and usage (solo or accompanied) and the sound of the room.
If there are other musicians playing, jazz ensemble for example, a closer mic technique would be better for separation.
Really it all comes down to “does it sound good”.
spaced pair sounds the best to me :-)
+1
Me too. More air. Wider image.
4 ME 2
If possible, taking the piano lid off is often a good way to improve the recorded sound, since it's a strong reflector that might mess up the sound.
Also, blumlein is a nice stereo recording technique too. I've had great results with 2 ribbon mics over the strings. You get better stereo separation than with XY, and being ribbon, the mics will make the sound softer, which is often needed from close to the strings. You won't run into phase problems either, as you easily might with spaced AB pair.
Love the close M/S.
The 214 and 2050 are both fantastic microphones, but using the two as a pair, especially as a close pair, is going to give you issues. I know matched pairs of microphones are expensive, but even just buying two of the same brand/model mic will give you much fewer issues with phase cancellation and uneven dynamic response.
really nice, helped me visualize setting up my baby grand mics.
You should have used a pair of the same mics, but I do appreciate the straight-forwardness in this video
Close pair or spaced pair I think. This is a really helpful experiment.
You can't use different mics for stereo techniques. Then it sounds as it sounds... XY pattern is wrong - you should put the mics as close to each other as possible (capsules together same as you do M/S).
Well, if perfect symmetry was necessary, like on drums overheads, then yes., but when recording piano it's not as important.
Some of these setups miss the point of stereo when recording a grand - to aim the mics at treble and bass strings to give the experience of hearing piano like the player would, with treble more on the right and bass on the left (or reversed, if you are filming the player/yourself from inside the piano). For example, the Blumlein setup (similar to X/Y inside, but using figure-8 mics aimed at the correct strings) is best about 2ft off the strings, midway through their length with one mic aimed at (and away, since it's fig8) treble strings and the other at bass (and out of the piano on the other side). Mics should be mounted tip-to-tip along same axis, not side by side, so they don't block each other's sound. This way you get the strings and room with just 2 mics. BUT..... IMHO, the *best* sound is recorded with 5 mics: 2 figure-8 in Blumlein arrangement inside the piano, aimed at treble and bass strings, 2 cardioid spaced pair at the foot of the piano (not on the side, where most place them, but at the foot!) at about 3-4ft from each other and 1-1.5ft from the end of the instrument, mixed over the inside mic audio at about +/-50% with slight reverb added to the external mics, and one room omni at about 6-10ft off the side of the piano (or cardioid aimed AWAY from the piano, recording the room), mixed at about 10-20% clean or with slight reverb. Never add reverb to the inside mics. This setup will give you incredible larger-than-life grand piano. Alternative to 2 figure-8 Blumlein mics are two cardioid mics: one placed at about midway of bass strings 6" away from them, another placed midway over treble strings 12" above them, with distance between them at half-length of the longest string in the piano (30-40" apart usually). I use AT4040 and AT2050 mics with a Steinberg UR44C in my home studio to pull all this off, and my whole mic setup is
Hi Gregory K, that sounds interesting. Do you have some examples online to demonstrate?
@@FlorianScharnofske I'll dig through some recordings and post something. Stuff I record right now is in small rooms, not big stages, so it's miked a bit differently. I also add room reverb through post processing. I send about 20% of each channel to the opposite channel with a studio reverb and a 15-20ms delay on it. Sounds surprisingly amazing. Often even two mics are enough with this technique. Depends on what you're producing and how much fidelity you want. Solo classical piano is very different from pop piano, playing in a mix of other instruments with vocals on top. Steinway sounds so different from Knabe or Baldwin, Dark bass-heavy Beethoven or Satie pieces are very different from light magical Gliere precludes or Chopin waltzes. Some need intimate sound with heavy attack, so you feel like the hammers are hitting your ears, and I know people who HATE hammery sound and want all the sound blended and airy, so mics need to be far out of the piano. Blumlein produces that airy more natural sound. Spaced pair or XY inside the piano with extra room omnis is best for very intimate sound without losing feeling of the room.
Question please? With 2 mics spaced you can get the high keys on the right and low keys to the left if you want right. But in M/S , after decoding what do you end up with? On a piano for example? If you were to track your fingers playing from the highest notes to the lowest notes across the keys could you get the high notes coming mostly out of your right speaker and the lowest notes coming out your left monitor?
Yeah I think to invert the stereo response, you would invert the phase on the other of the two side channels.
The samples sound okay to me.
Mid Side Near
Near Mid-side++
does the mic 1 pointing to the lower left & mic 2 pointing to lower right knob means gain level? and may I know why. please. thank you
no, means L/R panning ;)
what's difference between "XY external" and "Close Pair"?
Closepair are facing same direction. They're just close. X/Y pair is at 90 degrees to each other. Both setups use cardioid directional mics. If you use X/Y with Fig8 mics, you will get a Blumlein setup - one of the most natural ways to record grand piano. Internal is set inside the piano and external is a couple of feet away. Some of these setups miss the point of stereo - to aim the mics at treble and bass strings. For example, the Blumlein setup is best about 2ft off the strings, midway through their length with one mic aimed at (and away - Fig8) treble strings and the other at bass (and out of the piano on the other side). This way you get the strings and room with just 2 mics. IMHO, the BEST sound will have 5 mics: 2 figure-8 in Blumlein arrangement inside the piano, aimed at treble and bass strings, 2 cardioid spaced pair at the foot of the piano (not on the side, as most place them) as about 3-4ft from each other, mixed over the inside audio at about +/-50% with slight reverb added, and one room omni at about 6-10ft off the side of the piano, mixed at about 10-20% as is or with slight reverb. Never add reverb to the inside mics. This setup will give you incredible larger than life grand piano. Alternative to 2 figure-8 Blumlein mics are two cardioid mics, one placed at about midway of bass strings 6" away from them, another placed midway over treble strings 12" above them, with distance between them at half-length of the longest string in the piano. I use AT4040 and AT 2050 mics in my home studio, and my whole mic setup is
it sounds always wrong when you don´t use the same microphones. exception is m/s recording.
Don't you get phase cancellation except single mono, except with SP, WP, other configurations are bad (spectrum with holes, global sound is weak) ?
totally fail, this two mics you can only used as mid-side