Absolutely brilliant demonstration! I have been recording grand pianos for decades, and through much experimentation and persistence I personally determined precisely what Constatine has shown here. If this subject is important to you, you need go no further than what this fine gentleman and craftsman employs! Bravo!
thank you for showing us the multiple options available! That single cardoid condenser gives a more large room sound compared to some of the others. Great video!
Excellent video, this has and inspired me immensely. Such a nice break from all the crap on TH-cam by people who say you should do this and you shouldn't do that. This helped me to trust my ears and do whatever sounds right in the space and with the player and instrument I happen to capture on any given day. Many thanks!
100%! Always trust your ears and ignore the “rules” if the desired result comes from a “wrong” technique. The end goal is a good sound, and how you get there doesn’t matter. It’s all about exploring what’s possible and it should be fun! If I may, this translates perfectly to mixing too. If you have to boost something +6dB in your EQ, and it gives you the sound that you want, go for it (I never had to do this as I try to record as close to the final result that I want, but you get my point)! Thanks for commenting. Have fun with your recordings!
I think you might of broken the record for the number of recording microphone teqniques that can be used to record a piano. 😉 Was very inertesting to hear how the pianist hears the piano while using different microphone techniques. I definitely heard a few mic positions that I would of chosen as personal preference. I listened with a £20 pair of Sony earbuds. I could hear the differences between each mic teqnique very easily which means you did a great job. It was really well instructed and demonstrated. A round of a plause for the pianist also. I feel sorry for her playing the same score over and over again but I get why you did this but never the less she did a great job. I enjoyed watching and listening. Keep up the great content!! Peace ✌️💯
Yeah, Yiru is a beast. She was extremely consistent on each take and that is super helpful for comparing the takes afterwards. I also happen to have my personal preferences. I love the spaced pair beside the musician but at the end of the end you have to go for the sound that is appropriate for the track you are recording. Thank you watching and listening!
The soundboard is the reason you can hear a piano string resonate. Why not place the mics under the piano near the soundboard? The soundboard is essentially the amplifier of the piano.
Hi Kristopher. Indeed. And that technique (and similar ones) will be shown in part ii of the piano mic'ing videos I'm preparing. Along with some more omni techniques that compliment a more natural sound.
Parece que alguien sabe sobre sus micrófonos. Estoy usando el XLS porque no tiene el eq bump en 3k. Para mí, tiene un sonido más oscuro y cálido. Espero que eso ayude.
Excellent video thanks.Very helpful for someone learning about audio recording but perhaps you could have chosen a piece of music that had more examples of the deep lower frequency bass registers and higher treble notes.Thanks again.
Thank you! Choosing a piece was indeed a problem! I wanted something original and I really liked that piece by Martin Kern. Thanks for the feedback, I’ll be sure to make my future examples a bit more diverse.
Thanks Robert. Yes. I pan them. More specifically, I always create a stereo track when recording with a stereo technique, unless it's recorderman/Glynn Jones for drums. So the stereo track within the daw will automatically pan the mono tracks hard left and hard right.
fantastic video. can you tell me what mics were used spaced paired left and right Natural on each side of player slightly behind? that was my favourite! thanks so much and thanks for the demonstration!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks Constantine!. could you possibly recommend a more budget friendly alternative mic recommendations? i was looking at the rode nt1. thanks so much
@@acekoolio819 the rode nt1 is an excellent budget mic. I would also recommend taking a look at the lewitt mics. They have some really good budget mics. Good quality and low prices!
Really good video - love the format of just demonstration and allow us to hear. I just got a grand in my studio and love being able to hear examples before choosing where to begin in my own journey. Mono to Stereo is wildly different - stereo close up sounds so killer to me.
Thanks Nathan! Recording a piano, especially a grand, seems like a daunting task at first, but it’s so fun to experiment with the process. I’m sure you are going to have fun as well. And yes, mono and stereo are worlds apart. I would never want to record a mono piano, but I thought I’d cover that for those that only have one mic. And yes, stereo up close is the most detailed and intimate one! I like it too. I’ll keep an eye out (or ear!) for your music because I’d love to have a listen at how you will approach it, given how good your production skills are. Thanks again.
I've watched *many* "How to record a Piano" videos recently after finally deciding to buy a digital recorder (pcm d100) to help improve my horrible piano recording skill; And I can say with great confidence and gratitude that this video is one of the best out there for sure :-) Not only do you showcase the different techniques with sound examples but also explain some of the ideas behind it! Many thanks Yiru Peng as well! The music being played is a great showcase of some potentially difficult things to record, such as the more "percussive" moments in piano music or fast trills/mordents (both of which seem to give trouble to phone/camera microphones) I've always wondered how people recorded well articulated and percussive piano music, while avoiding the "sharp" (a little bit like around 3:14) or loud "bangy" sounds a piano can sometimes produce.. For instance, I think Sokolov is one of the best pianists of all time, but I now start to realize that there's also a *lot* of skill needed to properly record the dynamics he produces ( th-cam.com/video/46PgAog8OR4/w-d-xo.html ) Maybe some post processing (Compressor ?) help with avoiding the loudness or EQ for sharpness of some piano sounds.. Thank you again for your awesome work!
Hello! Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated. I was also between the PCM-D100 and the H6 for something portable (I went with the latter because of the XLR inputs). Yes, the idea behind the video was to demonstrate the same sound/piece played exactly the same each time (as much as it was possible) to showcase the differences between the techniques. That helps when you have a classical pianist that can enter “machine mode” while still sounding good. For some reason I didn’t see many videos online approaching it like that and I thought I’d make my own! I know what you mean. I must say that oftentimes it is also personal preference as well. Some recording engineers and artists/performers (if they are experienced and they know what sound they want) might like those “bangy” sounds. It makes the sound more natural. If you see now, lots of vst pianos have pedal and piano noise sounds to enhance realism. Other engineers, just want to completely kill all of these sounds. But yes, I agree, you need to make sure you capture the best performance you can. Dynamics are extremely important and you need to make sure you are capturing everything the best way you can (Genre is important too. Some genres call for a compression party while others, like classical music, have minimal, if any compression). I am happy with Yiru because she delivered exactly what I asked for and with consistency, so yes! Many thanks to her as well! As for Sokolov, that’s the elite. He’ll sound great even if you put him behind a mediocre student piano. Having said that though, the instrument is also important to the sound and feel and I think I am making this point at the beginning, I honestly think that 50% of your good sound comes from the musician and their instrument. So as long as you have those two sorted out, that’s half of your job done! As far as processing goes, I am miles away from a classical recording engineer. Given the fact that I had such a wonderful instrument and pianist, I thought I’d approach it in a way that I would capture the purest sound I could. Hence why I didn’t do any processing other than de-noising the very noisy auditorium. Personally, I would be tempted to apply light processing to still have a natural sound but again, personal preference and context! Always approach it the way that will give you the best results depending on context.
Nice video! ORTF is one of my favourite tecnique and sound great on this piano! XY too! This week i gonna work with a famous jazz pianist for live concert so i wanna try both micking tecnique! Thanks you to inspire me Constantine
The best demonstration I have seen/heard of this complex subject done with classical piano which is together with voice the most discriminating and critical instrument. Constantine, are you posting the +omni mic version or have I missed it? Cudos to the tenacity of the pianist!
Many times you get a reflection from the bass and not the bass because there are iron bars from the sound board betwen the hammer and the mic. That makes a lot of diference in mic positioning. If the mic doesen't see every single hammer you will have a cluster of sounds and reflection sounds in the lower bass... The best option with less bass refletions is at 12:04. The worse would be 6:08 because it has the score stand in front (i'm glad you put it down after for this demosntration). Another position is in front of pianist wiht the same distance betwen mic and every single hammer. The side position alway puts away the bass hammer and puts in front the higher hammers. A pianist ears the hammer at an equal distance and so should the mics. You can only do that without reflections in the oposite side of the piano (facing the front of the pianist). Remember, distance to each hammer and visual contact between mic and EVERY hammer (if possible) is very important in close capture. You have to care for every hammer as if it's an instrument to mic, just like a musician do with every single note. If a mic doesn't "see" an hammer, you will not have the same sound result from that string. It may sound picky but artists put a lot of efort in every single note, so there shouldn't be an iron bar betewen an hammer and a mic.
Thanks for the comment. There's a lot of interesting information on it. I like the approach. I do agree that the engineer should always approach it like a musician and not strictly as an engineer. Although, you are the rare case of musicians that know exactly what they want and can actually describe it too. That's why I encourage all musicians to learn at least the basics of production. The final result will be much better if they describe things like you do. Also, you mentioned some interesting things that I really want to try.
That was part of my plans for the second part of the piano recordings video I wanted to make. I wanted something similar to the Sax video where I try unconventional mic'ing techniques. Unfortunately, the lockdown had ruined my plans and now I'm not sure when I will be able to shoot it. Lid Open and Closed is definitely on the list though!
Hello! The studio I was using is exactly underneath the auditorium where I shot the video. The signal travelled quite a bit but it eventually arrived to the Earthworks 1024. This is a four channel pre-amp; so enough channels to have both my stereo technique mics and the room omnis on. As far as pre-amps go, this is as transparent as it gets. It has zero distortion, zero colouring; hence why it is heavily used in classical music recordings. The reason I chose that pre-amp is because I approached it like a classical recording. I had a great piano and a great classical pianist, so I wanted to capture the pure tone of the piano and present it as is without any post processing. I usually have with me the Zoom F8 as a backup in case something goes wrong (or for field recordings) but fortunately, I could use the earthworks. The studio has maxed out mac minis. As far as DAW goes, I always use the one that makes my life easier. I hate doing midi work on Pro Tools but I love tracking and mixing on it. Logic Pro for my film scoring and sound design always works the best for me and lastly for electronic stuff I mostly use Ableton. I believe this one was recorded on Pro Tools.
After binging grand piano recording tutorials over the last three days, I think this is the best one on TH-cam. I am recording a pianist next week and I think I will use XY with two cardioids. I also liked ORTF but I don't want so much distance between the bass and the treble. A couple of questions about the rooms mics, though. I don't have omnis, only a couple of cardioids. Do you think that would be a problem? And if I am only adding them to the XY mix to add a bit of room sound, do I still need to worried about phase cancellation?
First of all, thank you for the compliment. Much appreciated. As far as polar patterns go, XY works great most of the time, but I would suggest trying a few more if you have the luxury of time. You may find that something works a bit better for the style you are recording. It’s fine if you don’t use omnis for room mics. The reason I prefer omnis is because you still get some decent bass response even from a distance (Assuming they are real omnis and pressure operated). A cardiod will not capture the same bass as a real omni. And that is fine, you can absolutely work with that. I would only use room mics if the recording environment is good. As far as phase goes, I simply follow the 3:1 rule and then quickly check the phase in my DAW. I flip the phase and then see if it sounds thinner or not. If it sounds thinner when you flip the phase, then you are good. If it sounds better, then you’ll need to move the mics. Personally, I never had an issue because I am always super precise with the 3:1 rule (Yes, I do use a measuring tape!). I use the EQ on pro tools because it has a phase invert function. You can use any plug in that has that option. The sensitivity of the mic is also important when you do room micing. Something with higher sensitivity is preferable but do use what you have. And make sure they are not close to a wall. Best of luck with it.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Thank you, Constantine, I really appreciate your advice. I'll have two hours to record several takes of a 3-minute piece, so hopefully I will have a chance to experiment with different setups and placement beyond XY. And I am definitely taking my measuring tape with me so that I can ensure that the room mics are set to the 3:1 rule. Thanks! :)
Thank you for this video, really helpfull ! I suppose that in some configurations, specially when the microphones are at a certain distance from the piano, the result will depend on the acoustic of the room.
Hi. Yes, most definitely! The room plays an important role to the final result. The further away you are the more of the room you are “capturing”. Especially with condenser mics that pick up a lot of it unlike the dynamic mics. Super close miking doesn’t sound natural at times, so that’s not great either in my opinion. If you are at a bad recording environment, techniques such as the one at 13:21 (outside the piano) would not work too well. So yes, the acoustics play an important role and would influence the way I would approach the recording. Thanks for watching.
Would be very helpful to also know the brand and price of each microphone that you used in this video and in the following videos. Thank you for great content.
Thank you for the kind words and the comments. Yes, I get that question all the time and I think I should start including my gear list for people to see. I have updated the description box with the gear I used for this one. As far as price goes, it depends on where you live. I can only speak for UK prices so it won’t be of much help to you if you don’t here. I already answered the pre-amp question on your other comment. The mics are: AKG C414 (For the mono techniques) Earthworks QTC50 (True Omni mics) Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (Cardiod) (For the stereo techniques) The C414 is a large diaphragm condenser and the CMC6 is a small diaphragm condenser. I am only mentioning this because that also changes the sound. A lot of people sleep on this, but use good mic stands! It’ll make your life easier. I used K&M for all my vids and of course good quality XLR cables.
Amazing, that is extremely helpful. I just purchased a grand piano for my home studio and I’m looking into microphones and amplifiers suited for classical Recording. I am a classically trained Composer and a Pianist, so this particular set up is very close to what I am looking for in terms of sound.
@@stanislavfridman5268 That sounds wonderful. Having your own grand to experiment is the best way to learn how everything works. Don’t be afraid to go crazy and try techniques that may look weird on paper! You can’t go wrong with Earthworks. Their products are expensive but it’s the classic “You get what you pay for scenario”. Totally recommend them. Two suggestions for when you start recording. Treat your room to make it as sound recording friendly as possible and lastly, have a look at izotope RX. As far cleaning noise, accidental clicks, pops etc, nothing comes close to what this software can do. It may be of some help in the future. Best of luck with your recording adventures, don’t hesitate to get in touch if you need any help.
I did think about M/S but then I decided that because of the processing that is required, it might drive away the complete beginners. Am I regretting now? Well.... Yes :/ Thank you for watching though.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer as a pianist who's taking courses in location recording, I found out that M/S is my favourite technique. There's never too late to make an ekstra video about it 😀
Thanks so much John. I agree, as far as stereo seperation goes, AB gives you the best results. I wouldn't use that for something more intimate though. Something like a Jazz trio. I'd like something "closer". For pop etc, I like the AB! Personal preference though! There's no right or wrong here!
Hi Robert. I wanted to do part 2 but that's not happening any time soon as the pianist went to China and couldn't return due to the pandemic. So I'll proceed to make a video with the omnis where I do a walk though in Logic Pro. Hopefully soon! Thanks for watching
Elegance. Courtesy. Benevolence. It is always amusing to see this type of commentary where the author seems to be more demanding of others than of himself and is totally alien to these three requirements. I invite you to see for yourself his single publication and to see the immense quality of the video (both sound and image) of it, to better understand how sour and distressing his comment is. Dear Pierluigi, you announced 3 months ago that you would demonstrate all your skills within 3 months. And we are just getting there. We look forward to your brilliant demonstration...of competence or else of malicious arrogance. In any case, thank you Constantine Music for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.
Hi there! I recently purchased the Zoom H5 recorder and was wondering if anyone has experience on how to position it to record from a grand piano? Much appreciated 🙏☺️
If I'm not mistaken, the H5 comes with the XY mic capsule (and you can change it to other polar patterns). That means that all the positions I demonstrate on the video for the stereo techniques, you can also try. Furthermore, since it has xlr inputs, you can also grab a pair of mics and use other techniques than XY. And of course, experiment. Play with the distance, the position etc.
Thanks, friend, for taking the trouble to demonstrate your set of options and encouraging critical listening. You are the human equivalent of open software 😊
I would be curious to hear and see the follow-up video with the omni mics. Was that video ever made? I don't see it on the channel. Maybe I'm blind. :D Haha. In either case, I appreciate this tutorial so very much! Thank you!
Haha, no! You are not blind. I was just unlucky. I wanted to shoot part II with some really whacky techniques and experiment a lot. You know, mics under the piano or in line with the top of the lid pointing to the strings etc. So, I wanted to do part two, but the pianist went to China and then the lockdown happened. She couldn’t travel back to the UK, I couldn’t record in a studio, and I put it on pause for a bit. That led to some other time consuming projects, such as my Logic Pro series, but I will definitely do part II in the future. Thanks.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Ah. Dang! That pandemic! :O Well, I look forward to it whenever you get to it. But I think by that time, I'd have experimented, too. :D Hehe
Thanks for great video. I've tried Zoom recorder at various locations for my piano and I'm ready to get a pair of real mics (Line audio CM4 any good?). This video will be helpful in future!
oh yes! For their price range they are amazing! In that price range, either the Lewitt LCT 140, or those. And get a stereo bar too, make your life a bit easier!
Unfortunately, I don't have the sheet music to send it to you. He only brought the sheet music at the recording, Yiru sightreaded it, and then he took them back. But here's the email of the composer mail@martinkernmusic.com You can ask him directly.
Hi Björn. Short answer: Love Blumlein! Sounds natural. Love Ribbons but they don’t always work! Long answer because I can’t resist such questions: I love the Blumlein technique. It offers a feel of realism that I normally can’t achieve with other techniques. I like the wide and realistic stereo image it produces. Plus, it has good mono compatibility. The problem with the technique is that a good acoustic environment is necessary (A requirement for most techniques but some are more forgiving!). Given the fact that you will be having two bi-directional mics on top of each other, that means that even though the sound will be focused, reverberation will be an issue. I believe that the technique is great and it works really well but context is the most important thing to consider. It often comes down to personal taste but in general if it is a solo piano you are recording, then something like Blumlein could work great to capture a sound that is mostly in the centre and quite natural. If it is part of an ensemble, the overall piano sound would need to be smaller and more upfront than the orchestra’s wide image (Bleed/Spill is also an issue so Blumlein might not work for such an application). If it’s a pop track, even if you are tracking all the instruments separately or in a different room, I would probably first go with something closer that produces a drier sound and of course set up room mics to blend them to taste. Always consider what you are recording and go for the technique that will give you the sound that you want. Once you find the technique you want and works, say Blumlein, move the mics! Try different positions. Moving the mic even 5cm will change the sound. So move them before touching that EQ. As far as mics go, I am afraid I will have to give the same answer again. It depends on context. For starters you have to see if you want a mic that colors the sound (Presence boosts, warmness, smoothness, bass etc), or something more neutral. The big diaphragm condensers will have a different sound from the small diaphragm condensers (I happen to love the Schoeps that I am using on this video and they are small diaphragm). I would start with neutral microphones with a smooth off axis response that don’t have any crazy presence peaks (Such as the AKG C414) and start moving them around to change the sound character to bring it as close to what I want as possible. Ribbon microphones are great. I have used the Royer R121 on piano and Brass and was really happy with the results. Definitely not as precise as the condenser mics but much warmer with a distinct sound that works really well for certain genres. If you have a studio, definitely invest in some ribbons for the Mic cabinet. If you are only recording in a home studio environment, then an all-around neutral mic might be a more versatile option. Congrats if you made it through my little essay!
Thank you. The AT is part of my personal collection and the only one I had at home to take that thumbnail pic (Hence why it wasn't at the studio when we shot the video). I can confirm that it works amazingly well on pianos though!
just discovered this amazing video...I have a Rode Shotgun NG2, an ominidirection Sennheiser and a cardiod sennheiser. I plan to use the Rode Shotgun and the Omnidirectional mic to record a piano performance...using separate mic stands. The shotgun about 1mt away from the piano aiming at the centre and the omni about 1.5mt aiming at the piano...I hope that works! I can't get any more mics!
Thank you Erick. I don’t see a problem when it comes to mono recordings with the mics you have. If you plan to do a stereo recording though, your final result will be unbalanced because of how different your mics are. Different models are fine to do a mismatched stereo recording, but the polar patterns need to match. If your cardiod mic can change polar patterns, I would suggest putting it on figure of 8, and then using it with the omnidirectional mic to do a mid-side recording. I don’t demonstrate this technique on this video because I left it for part two. Best of luck with the recording.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks so much! I will invest in a nice set of mics for music recording...not for Grammy awards but nice ones...I will try what I have now. I may even use a Tascam recorder as well and then listen. I'm sure I will get much better sound than what my client was getting with her iphone! I intend to use 3 cameras and do a performance video. Audio is very important for all videos. I'm learning that! Thanks so much!
@@TheFandangovideoguy A mic investment is always a good investment. It doesn’t even have to be an expensive choice. If you have a Tascam recorder, definitely set it up! Most of them are with an XY mic configuration and it’ll record the stereo field nicely. A good advice I was given was, “you can NOT use the recordings, but it’s good if you have them”. So, set it up anyway, at least you’ll have the choice. And yes, you’ll definitely get a better sound than an i-phone! Glad you said that about the sound. It’s extremely important. I wish more film people realized that. Danny Boyle said that 70% of the movie experience is the sound. I happen to agree! (Yes. I’m a bit biased!)
100%. And if I could , I would show even more. Move them farther, closer and experiment as much as I can! You never know what might stick. That's why I'm saying at the beginning, these are merely suggestions. Thanks for watching.
здраво пријатељу! I plan to expand the list of my recording tutorials and I have a video in mind such as the one you suggested. I'm a bit busy at the time with other things, but once these are done, I'll get back to the recording tutorials. Thanks for watching.
I wanted to make another video with more recording techniques, some more experimental that the ones shown on this. But covid happened and I couldn't use the studios and the pianist left the UK. I still want to do that before making the video with the omnis blended in so I can have all the techniques from both videos in that one.
Hi! That would be the Yamaha U3, correct? As that is an upright piano, I would direct you to my upright recording video th-cam.com/video/PqLDPQ9cp80/w-d-xo.html As far as mics go, that depends on what you have available really. The one thing I would strongly suggest is that you do a stereo recording. I would also suggest a condenser mic of course, but again, whatever you have available. If you want to be more precise and have less colour in your recording, a small diaphragm condenser would be the better choice. They have a more consistent pick-up pattern than large diaphragm condensers. That’s it really. And all you have to do is experiment with the positions and possibly moving the piano away from the wall. If you want recommendations about a specific microphone brand or model, I would say that it is not as important as the rest I have mentioned, but if you have the chance to rent/borrow and you can find a pair like the ones I’m using in my upright video, I’m sure you’ll love them too. They are the Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (cardiod). I love these mics, but you can honestly work with most decent mics as long as you make sure your recording environment is treated. Best of luck with the recording.
Thanks for the question. That is a tricky one! On one hand, I always prefer stereo over mono for piano recordings. It is 101% preferable to go for a stereo recording when recording instruments such as Pianos, Drum OH, Ensembles, choirs, maybe acoustic guitars etc. On the other hand, I do prefer an XLR mic over a USB. But the choice really depends on many factors. Are we talking about a cheap XLR mic? A cheap XLR condenser mic (Below the €100 point), will not have much of a difference in sound quality with a USB mic on the same price range. As the price goes up, the quality of the XLR mic goes up and I think it delivers a better sound. And it handles noise better. But that requires external gear as well. What kind of mic pre-amp are you using? What kind of audio interface? These will affect the sound (and the budget!). The USB mic will need none of these and will rely on its internal components to process the sound, which I personally don’t like. There’s also one other factor you need to consider. Will your computer be able to record two USB mics at the same time? It could be a bit tricky, I have no experience with it though. I’m just speculating. Bottom line, I am firm believer of “Try it and see”. If I had the option though, I would try to get two XLR mics to record in stereo. If you don’t have that option though, by all means, use the gear that you have. Whatever is available.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thank you so much very useful feedback. I agree that the best thing is to try as you mentioned and compare quality sound. I am looking for a simple solution to record at home and for passion (to improve piano study) in the order of 200$. Currently I am confusing about which is the best configuration between a portable audio recorder like zoom h4n pro, one usb mic with stereo mode pattern or two usb mic to mix them getting the stereo recording. All the best
@@massimobertini915 If it is just for keeping tabs on your piano playing and making an archive, then the H4n will do fine. I have been using the h2n to do the same. The sound quality is more than enough for that. If you are thinking about recording to release a track, then I wouldn't recommend the XY that it has on top. But it has two XLR inputs which you can take advantage of. I would start with the h4n, and then eventually down the line, buy two condenser mics and record with a better quality. I would suggest the Lewitt LCT 040 as the most budget friendly option
Hi. About panning... I'm a boogiewoogie pianist and it's the main feature in my music. Now, I'm talking about listening in headphones. I always thought that if the piano is full right and left it appears to be 180 degrees wide, like ear to ear or right across the sound stage. I assume it's different in speakers as you get crosstalk between them. I've tried xy and ab stereo and then I tried to use a mono mic in the centre of my grand, which captures it with zero phase problems but sounds unexciting. Then I tried putting it through a stereo widener, such as Izotope Relay. I don't know what it does to the signal but it seems almost stereo and has a magnificent sound. Completely opens it up and transforms it. I widen it so as to sound maybe 40degrees wide, as though listening to it from the front row in the audience. The wider I make the piano, the closer it sounds, until it sounds like it's right inside my head, or my head is inside the piano. Same applies with two mics in stereo, but then I've always felt that even as the player I don't hear bass left, treble right. The strings cross over and I hear a mixed sound. My ears aren't completely cut off like in headphones. Both ears hear the whole sound from slightly different positions giving spatial awareness. Surely, if you are listening from a few yards away, a piano on stage is almost mono, but in the stereo ambience of the room. You don't hear bass and treble separately. Someone help me. Am I insane? Its certainly been driving me that way. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You know more than me. Most people do.
Hello! When you make a stereo track and it’s automatically panned hard left and hard, it doesn’t mean that it will separate the sound sources like that too. When you record it’s only normal that the “bass” side mic will also pick some of the “tremble” mic. So your description of hearing a mixed sound is correct and one that I happen to like as well. If we were to completely isolate the two sides with zero bleed/spill then it would sound unnatural. By creating a good stereo mix on the piano I personally try to get a good blend between the two and just have more bass energy on one side and more treble energy on the other, but a blend nonetheless. As for distant miking sounding mono, it depends. Anything above 2meters is considered distant miking but I think it lacks the precision of closer miking techniques, hence why it might give that impression. It’s still stereo but without the detail and a lot of room ambience that sometimes can be a good thing. Ideally, miking both close and distant at the same time (Assuming the recording environment is good), is the safest bet and if you don’t need the room mics, you don’t need to use them. To be honest with you, I try to get it as good as I can in the recording stage because I don’t know if I can always rely on the plug ins to save me. Insight 2 Relay is amazing and there is the “whatever works” philosophy in the studio, which I happen to agree with, but only after I did everything I could in the recording stage. I would try to experiment with making the piano more exciting before applying relay. Lastly, to reply to your last question, “Am I insane?” Well, yes. All of us musicians are :)
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
Hi Alberto! Thanks for watching. You’ve got some really good gear. When I was about to buy my first mic I was between the NT2000 and the Audio Technica AT 4040. I ended up getting the AT 4040 but the NT2000 is a good mic too. Do you mean apogee 46 instead of 76? I’m not familiar with a 76 model but anything apogee is quality. The 9098 has a clean sound and it’ll get the job done nicely. I understand that I show some mono techniques as well to accommodate everyone but a grand piano really shines when you capture it in stereo. If you only have one mic, I would suggest buying one more to be able to make stereo recordings. For most techniques you need two identical mics (Mid-side can be different models). As far as what is the best mic I don’t think there’s a right answer for that. Most recording engineers will have their personal favourites. I would definitely stay away from dynamic mics. Any good condenser, small or large diaphragm, will get the job done. The CMC6 that I am using at the video are probably my favourite small diaphragm mics, but that’s that; just a personal preference. I personally think that they work great for any acoustic instrument. From the large diaphragm microphones I have used the C414, C12, U87 and TLM 107. Happy with all of them. Do I hear the £1500 difference between the C414 and the U87? No! It’s just a different colour. You don’t have to go crazy expensive, but you need a good quality mic. So my suggestion would be, either get another NT2000 (assuming that you only have one) or invest into a new pair that agrees with your budget. If you treat your recording environment, you’ll be able to capture good quality recordings no matter if it’s a C414 or a C12. Don’t worry too much about the model, as long as it’s a good condenser and you like its colour. Lastly, if you want to use omni mics, only use pressure operated omnis. The omni pattern in most multi-pattern condensers is not a true omni. They still suffer from proximity effect. The ones I’m using at the video are a great example of good and extremely transparent mics (Earthworks 1024). Hope that helps a bit.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Hi Constantine , thanks a lot for you message, you was so kindly ! I haveApogee Elements 46 and I have 2 microphones NT 2000 Rodes, I'm trying some experiment about the position of mics . Could I send you one of my piano solo recording in my studio ? it would be great your opinion ! do you have an e mail ? thank you in advance !!
@@albertobellavia Of course. I'd be happy to. Please get in touch through the link and I'll get back to you as soon as possible. www.constantine-music.com/contact/
Thanks for the excellent video. I would have enjoyed the longer version even more :) Can you tell me what program you used to remove noise from the recordings? Am I correct in assuming the noise is room induced such as heating and ventilation, and outside noise such as traffic, or was it noise induced electronically such as microphone hiss or EMI on the lines? Thank you.
Hi Anton, I’m planning to do a follow up with the omnis blended in as well. Nothing beats iZotope RX when it comes to audio repair. I used the spectral de-noise function to clean up the noise. I can’t recommend this software enough. It’s like magic for certain things. You are correct, the noise was from the room. Even though I have turned the ventilation and the speakers off, there was still some noise that according to the studio manager, “It’s been 10 years and I still can’t find the source of it!”. I hope this helps. Thanks for watching.
Excellent video, thorough and instructive examples. I've been using stereo AB using 2 AKG 414s over the strings (one over high strings, one over bass strings) like the first stereo AB version using Steinway Model B piano. Maybe because my room has too much resonance for the big piano I get much better sound with this technique good presence and intensity, much preferred. Got to my channel Piano Night to hear the result.
Thank you very much. I'd love to hear the results but I can't seem to find your channel. Send me a link please! Also, your name is almost Hannon, so I'm expecting some good piano! haha. Ah..I loved that book.
One of the most precious videos on the topic of piano recordings... Thank you very very much! I also I have a curiosity about why you chose the AKG microphones instead of the Schoeps in some of the stereo setup. I know that for techniques like ORTF e XY the small diaphragm condensers are the standard and in general I guess it's correlated with the diaphragm size, but I don't understand how for the major part. (my laptop speakers don't help much on this, in facts I will certainly listen again with better speakers tomorrow!)
Hello! Thank you! To be honest, no particular reason. I just wanted to use both large and small diaphragm mics to show that either is absolutely fine. The sound will be different and depending on the context of the track you might want to have that small diaphragm sound instead of the big diaphragm sound for example. If you want to approach it in a more technical way, small diaphragm microphones have a more consistent pickup pattern for most frequencies. Let’s take the cardiod pattern that I am using in this video, if you were to compare the exact same recording of a large and small a diaphragm, you would see that the small diaphragm has a more consistent cardiod pickup pattern that stays relatively the same throughout most frequencies (that varies depending on the brand/model), and that the large diaphragm would not be as consistent, especially in the very low and very high frequencies (around 125Hz & above 10k). So if you want to be clinically precise, a small diaphragm would be a better choice (Hence why they are preferred in classical recordings). Also, a small diaphragm tends to be less coloured. So for a more neutral sound, it might be a better choice. At the end of the day you should be familiar with how both sound (Now that’s a good idea for a video!), and what kind of sound you can get from each. Use whatever works and gives you the sound that is closer to the final result. Just *don’t fix it in post* !! As for the stereo techniques, I am using large diaphragm mics all the time (for XY and ORTF too!). I was hired to do a recording that had a harp in a busy composition. I wanted a stereo sound and I wanted to make it as big as possible. For that reason, I went for an ORTF with the Neumann U87. And it worked great! So, you can use both types for stereo techniques, no problem!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Another big thank you!! Now the topic is much clearer, I have a better idea on how to upgrade my mic collection for the piano in the near future. Keep up the great job, wish you the best!
Awesome video! Thank you! If I want to record with a Zoom H5 handy recorder (XY head) like in the "XY 30 cm away" or "XY 90 cm away" mode, which level should I set the mics sensitivity to? I'm afraid not to catch enough sound or on the other hand ruin the recording with sound scratches when I play the recording back
Hi Alessandro, The recording equipment does not matter because the principle is the same and it applies on every recording that you do. Back in the analog days there was a lot of noise in the recordings (noise floor). So we had to record as loud as possible to hide that noise. And even if you went above 0db in the analog world, it would give you a sweet distortion and not clipping as is the case with the digital world. If you go above 0dB in the digital world there is nothing you can do to fix the damage (Some might disagree that you can use RX but that is not my point). Nowadays, with the technology we have, noise floor is not such a big problem. 24bit gives you 144dB of headroom and that is plenty! Technically, -18dB Full scale (Digital world, which includes the H5 you are using) equals 0dB VU (Analog world). So a good start would be to set your RMS (Average level) at -18dBFS with your highest peaks not going above -8dB. I go even lower than that, I always record at -24dB (Average level) without any of the peaks going above -12dB. I know that you said, you might not be capturing enough sound, but all the examples you have heard in this video (and all of my other videos), have been recorded at -24dB. That gives me incredible flexibility in terms of headroom and it makes my life and gain staging process extremely easy. Loudness is something that is taken care in the mastering process (where you also have to have a lot of headroom. I personally allow for at least -8db) or during the mixing process if you are not sending it for mastering. To sum everything up in simple words, Do not worry about not capturing enough sound. You can always turn the volume up later. Start with -18db (Or -24dB!) as your average level with no peaks going above -8dB and you’ll be alright. Avoid going too close to 0dB.
And something else I forgot to mention, the techqniue does not matter either. The average recording level applies to all recording techniques and all digital recording devices. So whether you use XY or ORTF or MONO, your recording levels should be set according to the same principle.
Excellent. I only record to remember and improve so I'm just concerned that I'm not distorted. I only use my phone with the fallboard out, with the in the middle of the piano. Should I get a different piano, the fallboard will be in and I'll have to change my perspective. I will definitely reference this video.
Hello! If it’s nothing more than recording yourself to keep track, then I guess it’s fine. From my experience when I did that, it was a bit better when the phone was not on the piano. I usually put it on a music stand with the phone mic facing the piano. If you ever want to do something more though and want to start capturing a better piano sound, then I would definitely suggest investing in some basic gear. All you need is an audio interface and a mic. There are plenty of free options when it comes to software.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer I have a Tascam DR44, but it only captures wave files and I can't post here without video (for purposes of backup and being to play when I'm not on my laptop. I don't need a whole production. I'm not recording an album. I just want to hear what I'm doing and what I was thinking. Recording with my phone is the most time efficient option. I will consider a better mic if I have more time to play. Thanks for your reply!
I've seen a clamp that goes on the frame, but I haven't had the time to locate it. It would point right at the hammers. There's also the Earthworks mic for pianos, that's really close to the dampers, but it's $3k.
@@newyorkfilharmonik110 the Tascam DR44 100% records other audio formats. Wav is the best quality but it definitely has mp3 and BWF. So if it's a matter of being a large file you can use the mp3 format. I am also recording myself with a ZOOM H2 to keep track of what I'm doing and personally, I find it a better option than my phone. But I do agree that the phone is the most time efficient option. So as long as "pro" sound is not an issue, the phone is absolutely fine.
@@newyorkfilharmonik110 Earthworks huh? So good but so expensive! Haha. I love their products but that price is a problem. In case you are thinking about investing on a clip-on mic, may I suggest that you have a look at the DPA 4099 as well? I have used these on drums, pianos and strings and I'm super happy with them.
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
Absolutely brilliant demonstration! I have been recording grand pianos for decades, and through much experimentation and persistence I personally determined precisely what Constatine has shown here. If this subject is important to you, you need go no further than what this fine gentleman and craftsman employs! Bravo!
What a wonderful comment. Thank you so much.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer My pleasure for it is the truth!
One of the better piano micing videos.
thank you for showing us the multiple options available! That single cardoid condenser gives a more large room sound compared to some of the others. Great video!
AB sounds best to me by far! Thank you for this.
Same to me! It sounds the 'closest' of the setups to me, which would make for a very nice recording
Excellent video, this has and inspired me immensely. Such a nice break from all the crap on TH-cam by people who say you should do this and you shouldn't do that. This helped me to trust my ears and do whatever sounds right in the space and with the player and instrument I happen to capture on any given day. Many thanks!
100%! Always trust your ears and ignore the “rules” if the desired result comes from a “wrong” technique. The end goal is a good sound, and how you get there doesn’t matter. It’s all about exploring what’s possible and it should be fun!
If I may, this translates perfectly to mixing too. If you have to boost something +6dB in your EQ, and it gives you the sound that you want, go for it (I never had to do this as I try to record as close to the final result that I want, but you get my point)!
Thanks for commenting. Have fun with your recordings!
I think you might of broken the record for the number of recording microphone teqniques that can be used to record a piano. 😉
Was very inertesting to hear how the pianist hears the piano while using different microphone techniques.
I definitely heard a few mic positions that I would of chosen as personal preference.
I listened with a £20 pair of Sony earbuds. I could hear the differences between each mic teqnique very easily which means you did a great job.
It was really well instructed and demonstrated.
A round of a plause for the pianist also.
I feel sorry for her playing the same score over and over again but I get why you did this but never the less she did a great job.
I enjoyed watching and listening.
Keep up the great content!!
Peace ✌️💯
Yeah, Yiru is a beast. She was extremely consistent on each take and that is super helpful for comparing the takes afterwards.
I also happen to have my personal preferences. I love the spaced pair beside the musician but at the end of the end you have to go for the sound that is appropriate for the track you are recording. Thank you watching and listening!
The soundboard is the reason you can hear a piano string resonate. Why not place the mics under the piano near the soundboard? The soundboard is essentially the amplifier of the piano.
Hi Kristopher.
Indeed.
And that technique (and similar ones) will be shown in part ii of the piano mic'ing videos I'm preparing. Along with some more omni techniques that compliment a more natural sound.
this is absolutely incredible, nobody shares valuable and amazing information like this, thank you very much!!!
Thank you. I'm glad it's appreciated
amazing content, thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you for the great experience anybody could help me with piece name place ?
Did you use AKG C414 XLS or AKG C414 XLii or AKG C414 ULS???
Parece que alguien sabe sobre sus micrófonos.
Estoy usando el XLS porque no tiene el eq bump en 3k.
Para mí, tiene un sonido más oscuro y cálido. Espero que eso ayude.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Thanks for your response.
Excellent video thanks.Very helpful for someone learning about audio recording but perhaps you could have chosen a piece of music that had more examples of the deep lower frequency bass registers and higher treble notes.Thanks again.
Thank you!
Choosing a piece was indeed a problem! I wanted something original and I really liked that piece by Martin Kern. Thanks for the feedback, I’ll be sure to make my future examples a bit more diverse.
Great video, thanks. Do you pan the XY mics? Thanks!
Thanks Robert.
Yes. I pan them.
More specifically, I always create a stereo track when recording with a stereo technique, unless it's recorderman/Glynn Jones for drums.
So the stereo track within the daw will automatically pan the mono tracks hard left and hard right.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer great, thanks. I’m recording piano today and we’ve been experimenting with you placement suggestions. Very helpful.
@@robertmahon8510 sounds good. Best of luck with it. Don't forget to give ORTF a try. When it works, it works great!
fantastic video. can you tell me what mics were used spaced paired left and right Natural on each side of player slightly behind? that was my favourite! thanks so much and thanks for the demonstration!
Thank you very much.
The mics are the AKG C414 (XLS version).
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks Constantine!. could you possibly recommend a more budget friendly alternative mic recommendations? i was looking at the rode nt1. thanks so much
@@acekoolio819 the rode nt1 is an excellent budget mic. I would also recommend taking a look at the lewitt mics. They have some really good budget mics. Good quality and low prices!
Really good video - love the format of just demonstration and allow us to hear. I just got a grand in my studio and love being able to hear examples before choosing where to begin in my own journey. Mono to Stereo is wildly different - stereo close up sounds so killer to me.
Thanks Nathan!
Recording a piano, especially a grand, seems like a daunting task at first, but it’s so fun to experiment with the process.
I’m sure you are going to have fun as well. And yes, mono and stereo are worlds apart. I would never want to record a mono piano, but I thought I’d cover that for those that only have one mic.
And yes, stereo up close is the most detailed and intimate one! I like it too. I’ll keep an eye out (or ear!) for your music because I’d love to have a listen at how you will approach it, given how good your production skills are.
Thanks again.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer For sure I'll probably be making a video on my channel on what I'm finding and trying out. Thanks!
I've watched *many* "How to record a Piano" videos recently after finally deciding to buy a digital recorder (pcm d100) to help improve my horrible piano recording skill; And I can say with great confidence and gratitude that this video is one of the best out there for sure :-)
Not only do you showcase the different techniques with sound examples but also explain some of the ideas behind it!
Many thanks Yiru Peng as well! The music being played is a great showcase of some potentially difficult things to record, such as the more "percussive" moments in piano music or fast trills/mordents (both of which seem to give trouble to phone/camera microphones)
I've always wondered how people recorded well articulated and percussive piano music, while avoiding the "sharp" (a little bit like around 3:14) or loud "bangy" sounds a piano can sometimes produce..
For instance, I think Sokolov is one of the best pianists of all time, but I now start to realize that there's also a *lot* of skill needed to properly record the dynamics he produces ( th-cam.com/video/46PgAog8OR4/w-d-xo.html )
Maybe some post processing (Compressor ?) help with avoiding the loudness or EQ for sharpness of some piano sounds..
Thank you again for your awesome work!
Hello!
Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.
I was also between the PCM-D100 and the H6 for something portable (I went with the latter because of the XLR inputs).
Yes, the idea behind the video was to demonstrate the same sound/piece played exactly the same each time (as much as it was possible) to showcase the differences between the techniques. That helps when you have a classical pianist that can enter “machine mode” while still sounding good. For some reason I didn’t see many videos online approaching it like that and I thought I’d make my own!
I know what you mean. I must say that oftentimes it is also personal preference as well. Some recording engineers and artists/performers (if they are experienced and they know what sound they want) might like those “bangy” sounds. It makes the sound more natural. If you see now, lots of vst pianos have pedal and piano noise sounds to enhance realism. Other engineers, just want to completely kill all of these sounds.
But yes, I agree, you need to make sure you capture the best performance you can. Dynamics are extremely important and you need to make sure you are capturing everything the best way you can (Genre is important too. Some genres call for a compression party while others, like classical music, have minimal, if any compression).
I am happy with Yiru because she delivered exactly what I asked for and with consistency, so yes! Many thanks to her as well!
As for Sokolov, that’s the elite. He’ll sound great even if you put him behind a mediocre student piano. Having said that though, the instrument is also important to the sound and feel and I think I am making this point at the beginning, I honestly think that 50% of your good sound comes from the musician and their instrument. So as long as you have those two sorted out, that’s half of your job done!
As far as processing goes, I am miles away from a classical recording engineer. Given the fact that I had such a wonderful instrument and pianist, I thought I’d approach it in a way that I would capture the purest sound I could. Hence why I didn’t do any processing other than de-noising the very noisy auditorium. Personally, I would be tempted to apply light processing to still have a natural sound but again, personal preference and context! Always approach it the way that will give you the best results depending on context.
Nice video! ORTF is one of my favourite tecnique and sound great on this piano! XY too! This week i gonna work with a famous jazz pianist for live concert so i wanna try both micking tecnique! Thanks you to inspire me Constantine
Hi Andrea! Thanks.
I love the ORTF technique too!
Best of luck with it. I'm sure you'll smash it!
We share the same taste.....
Great video, extremely informative! I personally prefer #8 ORTF
Thank you very much.
ORTF is my favorite stereo technique. It's the first thing I always try.
(I wish she had played a piece she knew)
The best demonstration I have seen/heard of this complex subject done with classical piano which is together with voice the most discriminating and critical instrument. Constantine, are you posting the +omni mic version or have I missed it? Cudos to the tenacity of the pianist!
Thank you very much.
Yes, I will post it eventually. I got sidetracked with other projects and I haven't finished it.
Many times you get a reflection from the bass and not the bass because there are iron bars from the sound board betwen the hammer and the mic. That makes a lot of diference in mic positioning. If the mic doesen't see every single hammer you will have a cluster of sounds and reflection sounds in the lower bass... The best option with less bass refletions is at 12:04. The worse would be 6:08 because it has the score stand in front (i'm glad you put it down after for this demosntration). Another position is in front of pianist wiht the same distance betwen mic and every single hammer. The side position alway puts away the bass hammer and puts in front the higher hammers. A pianist ears the hammer at an equal distance and so should the mics. You can only do that without reflections in the oposite side of the piano (facing the front of the pianist). Remember, distance to each hammer and visual contact between mic and EVERY hammer (if possible) is very important in close capture. You have to care for every hammer as if it's an instrument to mic, just like a musician do with every single note. If a mic doesn't "see" an hammer, you will not have the same sound result from that string. It may sound picky but artists put a lot of efort in every single note, so there shouldn't be an iron bar betewen an hammer and a mic.
Thanks for the comment. There's a lot of interesting information on it.
I like the approach.
I do agree that the engineer should always approach it like a musician and not strictly as an engineer.
Although, you are the rare case of musicians that know exactly what they want and can actually describe it too.
That's why I encourage all musicians to learn at least the basics of production.
The final result will be much better if they describe things like you do.
Also, you mentioned some interesting things that I really want to try.
What an amazingly helpful video!!
Good video. A Blumlein would have been welcome, but I suppose as you said, the hall is rather dry.
In hindsight, I should have done one anyway.
Well, in the next one.
Good technique though.
@12:50 best sound for my taste
Very well done 👍🏻
Great job! #ORTFRULEZ ;-)
Haha. I'll second that!
How about recording a grand piano with or without the lid?
That was part of my plans for the second part of the piano recordings video I wanted to make. I wanted something similar to the Sax video where I try unconventional mic'ing techniques. Unfortunately, the lockdown had ruined my plans and now I'm not sure when I will be able to shoot it.
Lid Open and Closed is definitely on the list though!
finally a good piano micing demonstration! well done dude
Much appreciated :)
Thank you for taking the time to make this video, it was very informative.
You are welcome. Thank you for the nice comment!
Perfect explanation. Thank you!
I am also curious, what were you recording into? What exact pre-amps and what computer?
Hello!
The studio I was using is exactly underneath the auditorium where I shot the video. The signal travelled quite a bit but it eventually arrived to the Earthworks 1024. This is a four channel pre-amp; so enough channels to have both my stereo technique mics and the room omnis on. As far as pre-amps go, this is as transparent as it gets. It has zero distortion, zero colouring; hence why it is heavily used in classical music recordings. The reason I chose that pre-amp is because I approached it like a classical recording. I had a great piano and a great classical pianist, so I wanted to capture the pure tone of the piano and present it as is without any post processing. I usually have with me the Zoom F8 as a backup in case something goes wrong (or for field recordings) but fortunately, I could use the earthworks. The studio has maxed out mac minis. As far as DAW goes, I always use the one that makes my life easier. I hate doing midi work on Pro Tools but I love tracking and mixing on it. Logic Pro for my film scoring and sound design always works the best for me and lastly for electronic stuff I mostly use Ableton. I believe this one was recorded on Pro Tools.
Thank you for the detailed answer! Very helpful
SO helpful, thank you!!!
Thank you so much for this very educational video. Awesome info, best piano micing technique video on utube hands down!
Thank you so much. Glad you liked it.
In the xy and ab pair, are these cardioid or omnidirectional mics?
Cardioid. For everything!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer ok, thanks! 🙏
very generous this sharing 👍
Thanks for watching
Absolutely great video!
Thanks!
After binging grand piano recording tutorials over the last three days, I think this is the best one on TH-cam. I am recording a pianist next week and I think I will use XY with two cardioids. I also liked ORTF but I don't want so much distance between the bass and the treble. A couple of questions about the rooms mics, though. I don't have omnis, only a couple of cardioids. Do you think that would be a problem? And if I am only adding them to the XY mix to add a bit of room sound, do I still need to worried about phase cancellation?
First of all, thank you for the compliment. Much appreciated.
As far as polar patterns go, XY works great most of the time, but I would suggest trying a few more if you have the luxury of time. You may find that something works a bit better for the style you are recording.
It’s fine if you don’t use omnis for room mics. The reason I prefer omnis is because you still get some decent bass response even from a distance (Assuming they are real omnis and pressure operated). A cardiod will not capture the same bass as a real omni. And that is fine, you can absolutely work with that. I would only use room mics if the recording environment is good.
As far as phase goes, I simply follow the 3:1 rule and then quickly check the phase in my DAW. I flip the phase and then see if it sounds thinner or not. If it sounds thinner when you flip the phase, then you are good. If it sounds better, then you’ll need to move the mics. Personally, I never had an issue because I am always super precise with the 3:1 rule (Yes, I do use a measuring tape!). I use the EQ on pro tools because it has a phase invert function. You can use any plug in that has that option.
The sensitivity of the mic is also important when you do room micing. Something with higher sensitivity is preferable but do use what you have.
And make sure they are not close to a wall.
Best of luck with it.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Thank you, Constantine, I really appreciate your advice. I'll have two hours to record several takes of a 3-minute piece, so hopefully I will have a chance to experiment with different setups and placement beyond XY. And I am definitely taking my measuring tape with me so that I can ensure that the room mics are set to the 3:1 rule. Thanks! :)
What brand is the cardiod mic? Tks
Hi!
Mono Techniques Microphone - AKG C414
Stereo Techniques microphones - Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (cardiod)
Thank you for this video, really helpfull ! I suppose that in some configurations, specially when the microphones are at a certain distance from the piano, the result will depend on the acoustic of the room.
Hi.
Yes, most definitely! The room plays an important role to the final result. The further away you are the more of the room you are “capturing”. Especially with condenser mics that pick up a lot of it unlike the dynamic mics. Super close miking doesn’t sound natural at times, so that’s not great either in my opinion.
If you are at a bad recording environment, techniques such as the one at 13:21 (outside the piano) would not work too well. So yes, the acoustics play an important role and would influence the way I would approach the recording.
Thanks for watching.
Would be very helpful to also know the brand and price of each microphone that you used in this video and in the following videos. Thank you for great content.
Thank you for the kind words and the comments.
Yes, I get that question all the time and I think I should start including my gear list for people to see.
I have updated the description box with the gear I used for this one. As far as price goes, it depends on where you live. I can only speak for UK prices so it won’t be of much help to you if you don’t here.
I already answered the pre-amp question on your other comment.
The mics are:
AKG C414 (For the mono techniques)
Earthworks QTC50 (True Omni mics)
Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (Cardiod) (For the stereo techniques)
The C414 is a large diaphragm condenser and the CMC6 is a small diaphragm condenser. I am only mentioning this because that also changes the sound.
A lot of people sleep on this, but use good mic stands! It’ll make your life easier. I used K&M for all my vids and of course good quality XLR cables.
Amazing, that is extremely helpful. I just purchased a grand piano for my home studio and I’m looking into microphones and amplifiers suited for classical Recording. I am a classically trained Composer and a Pianist, so this particular set up is very close to what I am looking for in terms of sound.
@@stanislavfridman5268 That sounds wonderful. Having your own grand to experiment is the best way to learn how everything works. Don’t be afraid to go crazy and try techniques that may look weird on paper!
You can’t go wrong with Earthworks. Their products are expensive but it’s the classic “You get what you pay for scenario”. Totally recommend them.
Two suggestions for when you start recording. Treat your room to make it as sound recording friendly as possible and lastly, have a look at izotope RX. As far cleaning noise, accidental clicks, pops etc, nothing comes close to what this software can do. It may be of some help in the future.
Best of luck with your recording adventures, don’t hesitate to get in touch if you need any help.
Thank you for your video! I wish you would have done a sample with the M/S technique as well :) AB was my favourite so far.
I did think about M/S but then I decided that because of the processing that is required, it might drive away the complete beginners. Am I regretting now?
Well.... Yes :/
Thank you for watching though.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer as a pianist who's taking courses in location recording, I found out that M/S is my favourite technique. There's never too late to make an ekstra video about it 😀
@@kvinneligesporimusikkhisto1144 Haha. Duly noted! Next video will include an M/S recording technique!
Damn useful video! Thanks
Great video. For me, the stereo separation achieved by the AB configuration blows all the others away. It’s not even close. Anyone agree?
Thanks so much John.
I agree, as far as stereo seperation goes, AB gives you the best results.
I wouldn't use that for something more intimate though. Something like a Jazz trio. I'd like something "closer".
For pop etc, I like the AB!
Personal preference though! There's no right or wrong here!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer -
Interesting point. Looking forward to trying a few of these methods. Thanks again for the excellent comparison.
Is there a video with Omni mics? Thanks . Great video !
Hi Robert.
I wanted to do part 2 but that's not happening any time soon as the pianist went to China and couldn't return due to the pandemic.
So I'll proceed to make a video with the omnis where I do a walk though in Logic Pro.
Hopefully soon!
Thanks for watching
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thank you 🙏 eagerly waiting
Elegance. Courtesy. Benevolence.
It is always amusing to see this type of commentary where the author seems to be more demanding of others than of himself and is totally alien to these three requirements.
I invite you to see for yourself his single publication and to see the immense quality of the video (both sound and image) of it, to better understand how sour and distressing his comment is.
Dear Pierluigi, you announced 3 months ago that you would demonstrate all your skills within 3 months. And we are just getting there. We look forward to your brilliant demonstration...of competence or else of malicious arrogance.
In any case, thank you Constantine Music for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.
She didn't like the word "dry" !
Are they the C414 XLS?
It's the B-ULS
Hi there! I recently purchased the Zoom H5 recorder and was wondering if anyone has experience on how to position it to record from a grand piano? Much appreciated 🙏☺️
If I'm not mistaken, the H5 comes with the XY mic capsule (and you can change it to other polar patterns). That means that all the positions I demonstrate on the video for the stereo techniques, you can also try.
Furthermore, since it has xlr inputs, you can also grab a pair of mics and use other techniques than XY. And of course, experiment. Play with the distance, the position etc.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks so much!! Can’t wait to try it out! Will be a fun learning process ☺️
100%! Have fun!
Thanks, friend, for taking the trouble to demonstrate your set of options and encouraging critical listening. You are the human equivalent of open software 😊
Haha. That might be one of the best comments I ever got. Thank you
this was my fav for my needs. 10:18 XY 60cm away from logo ,,,,, good video, thanx
Thank you!
Great video! Which mic stands / tripods are you using for the AB with the 414? Thanks!
Gracias Micka.
Todos son König & Meyer (también conocido como K&M). Garantía!
Excellent. Completely helpful. Thank you guys.
De nada :)
This is perfect, thank you so much for creating this amazing informative resource!
You are very welcome. Glad it was of help!
Thank you for this!!!!!
thanks for the comparison between different settings!!
You are very welcome!
I would be curious to hear and see the follow-up video with the omni mics. Was that video ever made? I don't see it on the channel. Maybe I'm blind. :D Haha.
In either case, I appreciate this tutorial so very much! Thank you!
Haha, no! You are not blind. I was just unlucky. I wanted to shoot part II with some really whacky techniques and experiment a lot. You know, mics under the piano or in line with the top of the lid pointing to the strings etc.
So, I wanted to do part two, but the pianist went to China and then the lockdown happened. She couldn’t travel back to the UK, I couldn’t record in a studio, and I put it on pause for a bit. That led to some other time consuming projects, such as my Logic Pro series, but I will definitely do part II in the future. Thanks.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer
Ah. Dang! That pandemic! :O
Well, I look forward to it whenever you get to it. But I think by that time, I'd have experimented, too. :D Hehe
Then I'll watch your video!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer
Hehe
I like the recordings when the microphones were inside the piano, the most recording No.6.
I don't have the words to qualify the precision of the video. It's a really really great job ! Thank you !
Thank you so very much!
Thanks for great video. I've tried Zoom recorder at various locations for my piano and I'm ready to get a pair of real mics (Line audio CM4 any good?). This video will be helpful in future!
oh yes! For their price range they are amazing!
In that price range, either the Lewitt LCT 140, or those.
And get a stereo bar too, make your life a bit easier!
Line Audio are fantastic. I have a pair of OM1 and CM3. Awesome!
Thank you for your showing multiple microphone arrangement. It is easy to find the best arrangement by its music style.
great video👏👏👏
Any advice as to where to find a recording of the song? Or sheet music?
Unfortunately, I don't have the sheet music to send it to you. He only brought the sheet music at the recording, Yiru sightreaded it, and then he took them back.
But here's the email of the composer
mail@martinkernmusic.com
You can ask him directly.
thank you! very good comparison!
What do you think of a Blumlein setup? What kind of microphones do you recommend? Large diaphragm or ribbon?
Hi Björn.
Short answer:
Love Blumlein! Sounds natural.
Love Ribbons but they don’t always work!
Long answer because I can’t resist such questions:
I love the Blumlein technique. It offers a feel of realism that I normally can’t achieve with other techniques. I like the wide and realistic stereo image it produces. Plus, it has good mono compatibility. The problem with the technique is that a good acoustic environment is necessary (A requirement for most techniques but some are more forgiving!). Given the fact that you will be having two bi-directional mics on top of each other, that means that even though the sound will be focused, reverberation will be an issue.
I believe that the technique is great and it works really well but context is the most important thing to consider. It often comes down to personal taste but in general if it is a solo piano you are recording, then something like Blumlein could work great to capture a sound that is mostly in the centre and quite natural. If it is part of an ensemble, the overall piano sound would need to be smaller and more upfront than the orchestra’s wide image (Bleed/Spill is also an issue so Blumlein might not work for such an application). If it’s a pop track, even if you are tracking all the instruments separately or in a different room, I would probably first go with something closer that produces a drier sound and of course set up room mics to blend them to taste. Always consider what you are recording and go for the technique that will give you the sound that you want. Once you find the technique you want and works, say Blumlein, move the mics! Try different positions. Moving the mic even 5cm will change the sound. So move them before touching that EQ.
As far as mics go, I am afraid I will have to give the same answer again. It depends on context.
For starters you have to see if you want a mic that colors the sound (Presence boosts, warmness, smoothness, bass etc), or something more neutral. The big diaphragm condensers will have a different sound from the small diaphragm condensers (I happen to love the Schoeps that I am using on this video and they are small diaphragm). I would start with neutral microphones with a smooth off axis response that don’t have any crazy presence peaks (Such as the AKG C414) and start moving them around to change the sound character to bring it as close to what I want as possible.
Ribbon microphones are great. I have used the Royer R121 on piano and Brass and was really happy with the results. Definitely not as precise as the condenser mics but much warmer with a distinct sound that works really well for certain genres. If you have a studio, definitely invest in some ribbons for the Mic cabinet. If you are only recording in a home studio environment, then an all-around neutral mic might be a more versatile option. Congrats if you made it through my little essay!
Geat Video! What pickup pattern is used for the AB examples?
Hi! Thank you. It's all in cardiod.
thank you
Great job!!! Wanted to hear that AT4060 on piano when I saw the thumbnail. Again great videos!
Thank you.
The AT is part of my personal collection and the only one I had at home to take that thumbnail pic (Hence why it wasn't at the studio when we shot the video).
I can confirm that it works amazingly well on pianos though!
just discovered this amazing video...I have a Rode Shotgun NG2, an ominidirection Sennheiser and a cardiod sennheiser. I plan to use the Rode Shotgun and the Omnidirectional mic to record a piano performance...using separate mic stands. The shotgun about 1mt away from the piano aiming at the centre and the omni about 1.5mt aiming at the piano...I hope that works! I can't get any more mics!
Thank you Erick.
I don’t see a problem when it comes to mono recordings with the mics you have.
If you plan to do a stereo recording though, your final result will be unbalanced because of how different your mics are. Different models are fine to do a mismatched stereo recording, but the polar patterns need to match.
If your cardiod mic can change polar patterns, I would suggest putting it on figure of 8, and then using it with the omnidirectional mic to do a mid-side recording. I don’t demonstrate this technique on this video because I left it for part two.
Best of luck with the recording.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks so much! I will invest in a nice set of mics for music recording...not for Grammy awards but nice ones...I will try what I have now. I may even use a Tascam recorder as well and then listen. I'm sure I will get much better sound than what my client was getting with her iphone! I intend to use 3 cameras and do a performance video. Audio is very important for all videos. I'm learning that! Thanks so much!
@@TheFandangovideoguy A mic investment is always a good investment. It doesn’t even have to be an expensive choice.
If you have a Tascam recorder, definitely set it up! Most of them are with an XY mic configuration and it’ll record the stereo field nicely.
A good advice I was given was, “you can NOT use the recordings, but it’s good if you have them”. So, set it up anyway, at least you’ll have the choice.
And yes, you’ll definitely get a better sound than an i-phone!
Glad you said that about the sound. It’s extremely important. I wish more film people realized that.
Danny Boyle said that 70% of the movie experience is the sound. I happen to agree! (Yes. I’m a bit biased!)
Love xy 30cm
Amazingly helpful mate! Thanks!
Thanks Daniel!
Thank you. Very educational
I wait to hear further samples - presumably to get ambience as well . . . ?
Yes sir!
Unfortunately, life got in the way and I didn't have time to do it. Hopefully, I'll get to it soon!
Lovely. Your technique of showing so many positions makes sense. testing is really the skill here. And using your ears.
100%. And if I could , I would show even more. Move them farther, closer and experiment as much as I can! You never know what might stick. That's why I'm saying at the beginning, these are merely suggestions. Thanks for watching.
Very useful, thank you!
Tnx for video, you should do one clip of all mics and comparing them in single video,but, this is also good,thnx again,greetings from Serbia.
like 5 or 10 seconds of every mic in one video
здраво пријатељу!
I plan to expand the list of my recording tutorials and I have a video in mind such as the one you suggested. I'm a bit busy at the time with other things, but once these are done, I'll get back to the recording tutorials. Thanks for watching.
Really excellent informative video. Thanks so much for your effort.
Thank you very much!
Thank you! Very helpful video!
Hey, what happened to part 2?
I wanted to make another video with more recording techniques, some more experimental that the ones shown on this.
But covid happened and I couldn't use the studios and the pianist left the UK.
I still want to do that before making the video with the omnis blended in so I can have all the techniques from both videos in that one.
Oh! I wasn't aware of the timing of the video. What a drag. Totally understandable.
@@rickrockzyootoob I know, a drag indeed! Hopefully, it'll all be ok and I'll be able to do it as planned. Thanks for watching.
I want record my U3 Piano at my house.
Would you recommend me what kind of mic to record it ?
Hi!
That would be the Yamaha U3, correct? As that is an upright piano, I would direct you to my upright recording video th-cam.com/video/PqLDPQ9cp80/w-d-xo.html
As far as mics go, that depends on what you have available really. The one thing I would strongly suggest is that you do a stereo recording.
I would also suggest a condenser mic of course, but again, whatever you have available.
If you want to be more precise and have less colour in your recording, a small diaphragm condenser would be the better choice. They have a more consistent pick-up pattern than large diaphragm condensers.
That’s it really. And all you have to do is experiment with the positions and possibly moving the piano away from the wall.
If you want recommendations about a specific microphone brand or model, I would say that it is not as important as the rest I have mentioned, but if you have the chance to rent/borrow and you can find a pair like the ones I’m using in my upright video, I’m sure you’ll love them too.
They are the Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (cardiod). I love these mics, but you can honestly work with most decent mics as long as you make sure your recording environment is treated. Best of luck with the recording.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Thank you so much
The best professional and helpful content ever I found on TH-cam in this year. And also very easy to navigate to compare them.
Thanks for your passion & dedication!
Thank you so much.
Is it possible to use 2 USB mic for stereo recording? Does it give a better result comparing to a mono recording?
Many thanks
Thanks for the question. That is a tricky one!
On one hand, I always prefer stereo over mono for piano recordings. It is 101% preferable to go for a stereo recording when recording instruments such as Pianos, Drum OH, Ensembles, choirs, maybe acoustic guitars etc.
On the other hand, I do prefer an XLR mic over a USB.
But the choice really depends on many factors.
Are we talking about a cheap XLR mic?
A cheap XLR condenser mic (Below the €100 point), will not have much of a difference in sound quality with a USB mic on the same price range.
As the price goes up, the quality of the XLR mic goes up and I think it delivers a better sound. And it handles noise better.
But that requires external gear as well. What kind of mic pre-amp are you using? What kind of audio interface? These will affect the sound (and the budget!).
The USB mic will need none of these and will rely on its internal components to process the sound, which I personally don’t like.
There’s also one other factor you need to consider.
Will your computer be able to record two USB mics at the same time?
It could be a bit tricky, I have no experience with it though. I’m just speculating.
Bottom line, I am firm believer of “Try it and see”.
If I had the option though, I would try to get two XLR mics to record in stereo.
If you don’t have that option though, by all means, use the gear that you have. Whatever is available.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thank you so much very useful feedback. I agree that the best thing is to try as you mentioned and compare quality sound. I am looking for a simple solution to record at home and for passion (to improve piano study) in the order of 200$. Currently I am confusing about which is the best configuration between a portable audio recorder like zoom h4n pro, one usb mic with stereo mode pattern or two usb mic to mix them getting the stereo recording. All the best
@@massimobertini915 If it is just for keeping tabs on your piano playing and making an archive, then the H4n will do fine. I have been using the h2n to do the same. The sound quality is more than enough for that.
If you are thinking about recording to release a track, then I wouldn't recommend the XY that it has on top.
But it has two XLR inputs which you can take advantage of.
I would start with the h4n, and then eventually down the line, buy two condenser mics and record with a better quality. I would suggest the Lewitt LCT 040 as the most budget friendly option
thank you for your time
Thank you
What kind of mics were used to record the ORTF method?
Schoeps CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier with the MK 4 capsule (Cardiod)
Thank you!
Thank you so much. Great work !
Thanks Rosevan!
Great, great thank you!!!
Great video. Thanks so much
Thanks
Hi. About panning... I'm a boogiewoogie pianist and it's the main feature in my music. Now, I'm talking about listening in headphones. I always thought that if the piano is full right and left it appears to be 180 degrees wide, like ear to ear or right across the sound stage. I assume it's different in speakers as you get crosstalk between them. I've tried xy and ab stereo and then I tried to use a mono mic in the centre of my grand, which captures it with zero phase problems but sounds unexciting. Then I tried putting it through a stereo widener, such as Izotope Relay. I don't know what it does to the signal but it seems almost stereo and has a magnificent sound. Completely opens it up and transforms it. I widen it so as to sound maybe 40degrees wide, as though listening to it from the front row in the audience. The wider I make the piano, the closer it sounds, until it sounds like it's right inside my head, or my head is inside the piano. Same applies with two mics in stereo, but then I've always felt that even as the player I don't hear bass left, treble right. The strings cross over and I hear a mixed sound. My ears aren't completely cut off like in headphones. Both ears hear the whole sound from slightly different positions giving spatial awareness. Surely, if you are listening from a few yards away, a piano on stage is almost mono, but in the stereo ambience of the room. You don't hear bass and treble separately. Someone help me. Am I insane? Its certainly been driving me that way. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You know more than me. Most people do.
Hello!
When you make a stereo track and it’s automatically panned hard left and hard, it doesn’t mean that it will separate the sound sources like that too. When you record it’s only normal that the “bass” side mic will also pick some of the “tremble” mic. So your description of hearing a mixed sound is correct and one that I happen to like as well. If we were to completely isolate the two sides with zero bleed/spill then it would sound unnatural. By creating a good stereo mix on the piano I personally try to get a good blend between the two and just have more bass energy on one side and more treble energy on the other, but a blend nonetheless.
As for distant miking sounding mono, it depends. Anything above 2meters is considered distant miking but I think it lacks the precision of closer miking techniques, hence why it might give that impression. It’s still stereo but without the detail and a lot of room ambience that sometimes can be a good thing. Ideally, miking both close and distant at the same time (Assuming the recording environment is good), is the safest bet and if you don’t need the room mics, you don’t need to use them.
To be honest with you, I try to get it as good as I can in the recording stage because I don’t know if I can always rely on the plug ins to save me. Insight 2 Relay is amazing and there is the “whatever works” philosophy in the studio, which I happen to agree with, but only after I did everything I could in the recording stage. I would try to experiment with making the piano more exciting before applying relay.
Lastly, to reply to your last question, “Am I insane?”
Well, yes. All of us musicians are :)
@@ConstantineMusicComposer thanks for taking the time to write all this. I'll try and do as you say.
@@DrFingers You are very welcome. Thank you for watching. You have a killer left hand by the way.
Great
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
Hi Alberto!
Thanks for watching.
You’ve got some really good gear.
When I was about to buy my first mic I was between the NT2000 and the Audio Technica AT 4040. I ended up getting the AT 4040 but the NT2000 is a good mic too. Do you mean apogee 46 instead of 76? I’m not familiar with a 76 model but anything apogee is quality. The 9098 has a clean sound and it’ll get the job done nicely.
I understand that I show some mono techniques as well to accommodate everyone but a grand piano really shines when you capture it in stereo. If you only have one mic, I would suggest buying one more to be able to make stereo recordings. For most techniques you need two identical mics (Mid-side can be different models). As far as what is the best mic I don’t think there’s a right answer for that. Most recording engineers will have their personal favourites. I would definitely stay away from dynamic mics. Any good condenser, small or large diaphragm, will get the job done.
The CMC6 that I am using at the video are probably my favourite small diaphragm mics, but that’s that; just a personal preference. I personally think that they work great for any acoustic instrument.
From the large diaphragm microphones I have used the C414, C12, U87 and TLM 107. Happy with all of them. Do I hear the £1500 difference between the C414 and the U87? No! It’s just a different colour. You don’t have to go crazy expensive, but you need a good quality mic.
So my suggestion would be, either get another NT2000 (assuming that you only have one) or invest into a new pair that agrees with your budget. If you treat your recording environment, you’ll be able to capture good quality recordings no matter if it’s a C414 or a C12. Don’t worry too much about the model, as long as it’s a good condenser and you like its colour.
Lastly, if you want to use omni mics, only use pressure operated omnis. The omni pattern in most multi-pattern condensers is not a true omni. They still suffer from proximity effect. The ones I’m using at the video are a great example of good and extremely transparent mics (Earthworks 1024). Hope that helps a bit.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Hi Constantine , thanks a lot for you message, you was so kindly ! I haveApogee Elements 46 and I have 2 microphones NT 2000 Rodes, I'm trying some experiment about the position of mics . Could I send you one of my piano solo recording in my studio ? it would be great your opinion ! do you have an e mail ? thank you in advance !!
@@albertobellavia Of course. I'd be happy to.
Please get in touch through the link and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.
www.constantine-music.com/contact/
Thanks for the excellent video. I would have enjoyed the longer version even more :) Can you tell me what program you used to remove noise from the recordings? Am I correct in assuming the noise is room induced such as heating and ventilation, and outside noise such as traffic, or was it noise induced electronically such as microphone hiss or EMI on the lines? Thank you.
Hi Anton,
I’m planning to do a follow up with the omnis blended in as well.
Nothing beats iZotope RX when it comes to audio repair. I used the spectral de-noise function to clean up the noise. I can’t recommend this software enough. It’s like magic for certain things.
You are correct, the noise was from the room. Even though I have turned the ventilation and the speakers off, there was still some noise that according to the studio manager, “It’s been 10 years and I still can’t find the source of it!”.
I hope this helps. Thanks for watching.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Awesome, thanks again!
Excellent video, thorough and instructive examples. I've been using stereo AB using 2 AKG 414s over the strings (one over high strings, one over bass strings) like the first stereo AB version using Steinway Model B piano. Maybe because my room has too much resonance for the big piano I get much better sound with this technique good presence and intensity, much preferred. Got to my channel Piano Night to hear the result.
Thank you very much.
I'd love to hear the results but I can't seem to find your channel. Send me a link please!
Also, your name is almost Hannon, so I'm expecting some good piano! haha.
Ah..I loved that book.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Here is a link th-cam.com/video/L7gt9pbIDNs/w-d-xo.html. Thanks for listening
@@jameshannan367 Wonderful. Great playing too!
Great job!
One of the most precious videos on the topic of piano recordings... Thank you very very much!
I also I have a curiosity about why you chose the AKG microphones instead of the Schoeps in some of the stereo setup. I know that for techniques like ORTF e XY the small diaphragm condensers are the standard and in general I guess it's correlated with the diaphragm size, but I don't understand how for the major part. (my laptop speakers don't help much on this, in facts I will certainly listen again with better speakers tomorrow!)
Hello! Thank you!
To be honest, no particular reason. I just wanted to use both large and small diaphragm mics to show that either is absolutely fine. The sound will be different and depending on the context of the track you might want to have that small diaphragm sound instead of the big diaphragm sound for example. If you want to approach it in a more technical way, small diaphragm microphones have a more consistent pickup pattern for most frequencies. Let’s take the cardiod pattern that I am using in this video, if you were to compare the exact same recording of a large and small a diaphragm, you would see that the small diaphragm has a more consistent cardiod pickup pattern that stays relatively the same throughout most frequencies (that varies depending on the brand/model), and that the large diaphragm would not be as consistent, especially in the very low and very high frequencies (around 125Hz & above 10k). So if you want to be clinically precise, a small diaphragm would be a better choice (Hence why they are preferred in classical recordings). Also, a small diaphragm tends to be less coloured. So for a more neutral sound, it might be a better choice.
At the end of the day you should be familiar with how both sound (Now that’s a good idea for a video!), and what kind of sound you can get from each. Use whatever works and gives you the sound that is closer to the final result.
Just *don’t fix it in post* !!
As for the stereo techniques, I am using large diaphragm mics all the time (for XY and ORTF too!). I was hired to do a recording that had a harp in a busy composition. I wanted a stereo sound and I wanted to make it as big as possible. For that reason, I went for an ORTF with the Neumann U87. And it worked great! So, you can use both types for stereo techniques, no problem!
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Another big thank you!! Now the topic is much clearer, I have a better idea on how to upgrade my mic collection for the piano in the near future. Keep up the great job, wish you the best!
Awesome video! Thank you!
If I want to record with a Zoom H5 handy recorder (XY head) like in the "XY 30 cm away" or "XY 90 cm away" mode, which level should I set the mics sensitivity to?
I'm afraid not to catch enough sound or on the other hand ruin the recording with sound scratches when I play the recording back
Hi Alessandro,
The recording equipment does not matter because the principle is the same and it applies on every recording that you do. Back in the analog days there was a lot of noise in the recordings (noise floor). So we had to record as loud as possible to hide that noise. And even if you went above 0db in the analog world, it would give you a sweet distortion and not clipping as is the case with the digital world. If you go above 0dB in the digital world there is nothing you can do to fix the damage (Some might disagree that you can use RX but that is not my point).
Nowadays, with the technology we have, noise floor is not such a big problem. 24bit gives you 144dB of headroom and that is plenty!
Technically, -18dB Full scale (Digital world, which includes the H5 you are using) equals 0dB VU (Analog world).
So a good start would be to set your RMS (Average level) at -18dBFS with your highest peaks not going above -8dB.
I go even lower than that, I always record at -24dB (Average level) without any of the peaks going above -12dB. I know that you said, you might not be capturing enough sound, but all the examples you have heard in this video (and all of my other videos), have been recorded at -24dB. That gives me incredible flexibility in terms of headroom and it makes my life and gain staging process extremely easy. Loudness is something that is taken care in the mastering process (where you also have to have a lot of headroom. I personally allow for at least -8db) or during the mixing process if you are not sending it for mastering.
To sum everything up in simple words,
Do not worry about not capturing enough sound. You can always turn the volume up later. Start with -18db (Or -24dB!) as your average level with no peaks going above -8dB and you’ll be alright. Avoid going too close to 0dB.
And something else I forgot to mention, the techqniue does not matter either. The average recording level applies to all recording techniques and all digital recording devices. So whether you use XY or ORTF or MONO, your recording levels should be set according to the same principle.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer Thank you for your time and explanations! You've been really helpful!
euxaristw poly!
Παρακαλώ! :)
Excellent. I only record to remember and improve so I'm just concerned that I'm not distorted. I only use my phone with the fallboard out, with the in the middle of the piano.
Should I get a different piano, the fallboard will be in and I'll have to change my perspective. I will definitely reference this video.
Hello!
If it’s nothing more than recording yourself to keep track, then I guess it’s fine. From my experience when I did that, it was a bit better when the phone was not on the piano. I usually put it on a music stand with the phone mic facing the piano. If you ever want to do something more though and want to start capturing a better piano sound, then I would definitely suggest investing in some basic gear. All you need is an audio interface and a mic. There are plenty of free options when it comes to software.
@@ConstantineMusicComposer I have a Tascam DR44, but it only captures wave files and I can't post here without video (for purposes of backup and being to play when I'm not on my laptop. I don't need a whole production. I'm not recording an album. I just want to hear what I'm doing and what I was thinking. Recording with my phone is the most time efficient option. I will consider a better mic if I have more time to play.
Thanks for your reply!
I've seen a clamp that goes on the frame, but I haven't had the time to locate it. It would point right at the hammers.
There's also the Earthworks mic for pianos, that's really close to the dampers, but it's $3k.
@@newyorkfilharmonik110 the Tascam DR44 100% records other audio formats. Wav is the best quality but it definitely has mp3 and BWF. So if it's a matter of being a large file you can use the mp3 format. I am also recording myself with a ZOOM H2 to keep track of what I'm doing and personally, I find it a better option than my phone. But I do agree that the phone is the most time efficient option. So as long as "pro" sound is not an issue, the phone is absolutely fine.
@@newyorkfilharmonik110 Earthworks huh? So good but so expensive! Haha. I love their products but that price is a problem. In case you are thinking about investing on a clip-on mic, may I suggest that you have a look at the DPA 4099 as well? I have used these on drums, pianos and strings and I'm super happy with them.
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
Excellent video, thank you very much !