Do you ever give them CBD oil for pain this just looks so painful for the piggy I would be crying if my piggy had to go through this with nothing. They are my fur babies because I can no longer have kids due to cancer
I was worried about the pain because my guinea pig had a cyst on her shoulder and it was getting bigger so I went to the doctors and they tested it it wasn't cancerous it was just a cyst but they were charging me $1,000. I was going to pay it believe me but I came on and watched the videos and apparently there was already an opening so I didn't have to cut her or anything so I just massage very gently and slows out what I could and kept doing it and it's never come back. I've been trying to make sure I got the sack out but I'm not even positive if I did. I had to do this a few times because it started growing back and then for the last time I did it it hasn't come back. This is going to sound gross and probably weird LOL but all of this is. So I had just bought off a tag sale a brand new blackhead sucker upper I guess you'd call it you put it up to your face or the black head and it sucks it out so using my brain I don't know how smart this was but I had put it up to the sack that had grown back and it literally was sucking out all the gook. So it worked definitely but she was just squeaking and I felt so bad I kept stopping and holding her and rubbing her but even if I use my hands and did it gently and also put a warm cloth on it in between she just didn't like it I have to wonder whether I hurt her
right!! I was so happy to see that they were able to do it for her. I know she had to be feeling awful. you normally get some immediate relief after lancing them. I can't imagine why the vet wouldn't even try.
So the vet just said "yeah, that's an abscess. Pay on your way out" ? I hope a complaint was put in; like many people doctors, some people aren't fit for a healing profession.
Yucky, smelly business. I know how you felt when that smell wafted up to your nose. Thank you for helping this little one. Let's hope this one doesn't fill back up.
Poor, brave little girl. She took that like a champ. She's so gentle, it broke my heart a little to see her try and bite you... must've been excruciating for her to be so touchy. I know I am late to the party with my comments, but Cinnamon is impressive. You are truly doing the Lord's work.
I love the way you freeze it before you start, like Saskia does ,Thank you so much. I know that has to be a big relief for her .bless her little heart ❤️
Lyn, you are so kind and compassionate with these sweet guinea pigs! You are absolutely amazing! ❤️😊 Thank you for what you do to help rescue these babies!
Poor girlie. I'm sure that in a bit she will feel better. The vet should have been able to take care of her and give her relief. Thank God for Lyn. She is a good friend to these little fur babies. 💕
As someone with a condition that causes abscesses I understand this poor piggies pain, the feeling of having it drained is pure relief compared to the feeling of a hot growing abscess stretching skin. I hope cinnamon recovers well. :)
You always do such a great job, and this one especially. You can tell how much your Guinea pigs trust you by how still he is during the treatment. Your calm and gentle demeanor puts them at ease, even in a painful condition as this. Bless your hearts 💕 You and Cinnamon
She was so sweet and calm! I'm in love! She's the cutest Guinea Pig I've ever seen, though they are all adorable and precious! But there's something about Cinnamon!
Oh man I totally understand how this piggie feels,, I had an abscess on my jaw/cheek area like this guinea from a wisdom tooth removal problem,, sad that people can get relief so quick but piggies have to find someone willing to do it 😔 thank u for helping these cuties !!!
Poor baby. I hope u have antibiotics for that infection. U did a wonderful job on draining it. Shame on the veternarian that denied that poor baby of treatment
I just knew you guys were Aussie I looked up your website before I knew you had a TH-cam channel now I know I have subscribed now got two piggie channels yours and saskia,s
Sadly vets will not want to treat small animals like guinea pigs if they feel they don't have the knowledge or experience as they are classed as exotic pets.
My heart goes out to cinnamon but I know she feels better with that abscess being drained. I speak from experience. 33 cactus needles to deep to know they were there until I began to swell up. I hope cinnamon had a quick recovery.. your amazing with these sweet babies. I'm happy they found their way to you. 💙💜💛💚
@@GuineaPigStuff I'm good, my neighbor and her dog fell into a cactus a jumping cactus. It doesn't jump but their needles can stay hidden. I pick up my 87yr old neighbor and her dog they were both covered in needles. She went to the hospital and I took her dog to the vet. I tried everything to get them out and ended up in ER right along with this sweet lady.
I find it so strange that some drs/ vets think it’s better to leave it alone. I get you don’t wanna cause more trauma to the area but those things hurt when they’re tiny! You gotta pop it .
You have to be careful because those cysts are very contagious. You really should have cleaned around the wound with betadine or alcohol. The fact that they can be so contagious and so much pooled under piggy she was litteraly soaked with the goo I hope she got a really good bath with a good soap. The only gross 😝 part was when it looked like 🐷 piggy was licking some of the goo 😝...lol. The vet should have done this in a sterile setting and given her some antibiotics. Keep up the good work! 😊
Hi! I have a guinea pig in a similar situation, and unfortunately we can't take care of it at the vet because it costs a lot of money. I was wondering what the solution you used to flush out the wound is? Thanks!
It is called debrisol . You can reach out to me on admin@guineapigstuff.com You do need to know what you are doing in this situation, please phone around for different vet prices.
@@GuineaPigStuff hi there! Thanks so much for your reply. My vet was unfortunately overcharging, almost $1000, for a simple abscess lancing, so we attempted to do it ourselves but couldn’t. Luckily we found another vet that does it for a much more reasonable price (around $200) and my piggie is there right now, hopefully it goes well. Thanks for your help!
@@mikeysfishingfuntime5070 I live in Alaska and it was approximately 4 years ago. I think I paid $165 for the visit, the draining, antibiotics, and pain relief medication.
@@GuineaPigStuff yes... so sad =( but glad its doing better. thank you for what you are doing. =) my daughter for her senior project started a piggy rescue here and raised the money for vetting and that. She's rehomed several now and has a herd of 12 now she takes good care of.
Wow, I know vets have to make money but that would have been so quick and easy for them to do for the cost of medical supplies and just consider it a charitable donation since it’s a rescue.
Poor girl, that looked so uncomfortable and to come up so fast it must have felt super tight to her. I know that freezing/numbing spray you used beforehand meant she wouldn't feel it but I'd be squeamish to put the needle or blade into her skin. I've injected pain relief into a terminal piggie before and felt squeamish each and every time, despite not being scared of needles. I admire that strength :) I'm not sure where you buy your syringes but I buy from MedShop Australia and they have ones with a thin curved tip, would that be easier to flush an abscess with?
Hi Amanda You need to know what you can aspirate and what not to. Certainly the numbing is really important but once the abscess is I would use the syringe ( without needle) to flush always as injury with movement at that stage is far too great, and you want the liguid in and out of the area.
No this appeared within a couple of days. She was taken to a vet that did not want to treat. She reached out to Cavy Central and came right in. Make sure you watch part 2. The owner acted very quickly trying to find help. She had lost substantial weight though.
My pig died last week, she just stopped eating and wouldn’t do anything, but I didn’t have any money for a vet so she just ended up passing and it made me so upset, I hate how expensive it is for a vet visit..
Hey! My guinea had an abscess in his jaw drained just over 24 hours ago and obviously it still pussed a bled for a few hours after and its started to heal, but the area seems to be swollen still. Is that normal? Or shall i take him back to the vets. Thanks
Hi Shelley reach out to me on the facebook page facebook.com/Cavy.Central.ACS.Sydney The swelling is usually normal. There are some things to be aware of in this area and I can help you with this.
I love absess bursts on animals but can't stand human ones lol. Good rule of thumb with flushing, you literally want to fill up that pocket until it's pouring out.
So name and shame the vet who neglected your poor Piggy like this. Otherwise you are allowing them to WIN by collecting money for being absolutely cruel. NAME THEM AND WHAT CITY OR TOWN SO OTHERS CAN AVOID THIS HORRIBLE TREATMENT.
You make that so much messier than it Hass to be why not put some gauze padding under it you’re just getting that shit everywhere that poor little pig has it all over him
🍎🍐🍊🍐🍎Click here for the full Abscess video playlist th-cam.com/play/PLFbcoz9JkwWpbUzi79BifiQIs6fJmTPt0.html 🍎🍐🍊🍐🍐
Do you ever give them CBD oil for pain this just looks so painful for the piggy I would be crying if my piggy had to go through this with nothing. They are my fur babies because I can no longer have kids due to cancer
@@1tru1
I'm so sorry. Hugs to you and your piggy babies.
@@1tru1 hi
@@1tru1 oomkk ok
I was worried about the pain because my guinea pig had a cyst on her shoulder and it was getting bigger so I went to the doctors and they tested it it wasn't cancerous it was just a cyst but they were charging me $1,000. I was going to pay it believe me but I came on and watched the videos and apparently there was already an opening so I didn't have to cut her or anything so I just massage very gently and slows out what I could and kept doing it and it's never come back. I've been trying to make sure I got the sack out but I'm not even positive if I did. I had to do this a few times because it started growing back and then for the last time I did it it hasn't come back. This is going to sound gross and probably weird LOL but all of this is. So I had just bought off a tag sale a brand new blackhead sucker upper I guess you'd call it you put it up to your face or the black head and it sucks it out so using my brain I don't know how smart this was but I had put it up to the sack that had grown back and it literally was sucking out all the gook. So it worked definitely but she was just squeaking and I felt so bad I kept stopping and holding her and rubbing her but even if I use my hands and did it gently and also put a warm cloth on it in between she just didn't like it I have to wonder whether I hurt her
Shame on the vet who could and should have given her immediate relief. Thank you for what you do.
Absolutely. Thank you for watching. Did you see Part 2?
I was thinking the same thing, she went to vet and they left it like that?? Pour baby.
right!! I was so happy to see that they were able to do it for her. I know she had to be feeling awful. you normally get some immediate relief after lancing them. I can't imagine why the vet wouldn't even try.
Yes I'm glad we have people like here take care of animals
So the vet just said "yeah, that's an abscess. Pay on your way out" ? I hope a complaint was put in; like many people doctors, some people aren't fit for a healing profession.
Awe, that poor baby! I can’t even imagine the relief she must be feeling after getting all that gunk out of there!! 💖
Yes so much better. Have you seen this update? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgyxWBXDFoXsnOohmUZ4AaABAg
Yucky, smelly business. I know how you felt when that smell wafted up to your nose. Thank you for helping this little one. Let's hope this one doesn't fill back up.
Totally something very unique. Kudos to you too.
@@schwarzemietze7116 What does it smell like?
Poor, brave little girl. She took that like a champ.
She's so gentle, it broke my heart a little to see her try and bite you... must've been excruciating for her to be so touchy.
I know I am late to the party with my comments, but Cinnamon is impressive.
You are truly doing the Lord's work.
Poor little piggie. I can’t believe how big that was. Thank you so much for being there for Cinnamon. ❤️
Yes it was enormous.
I love the way you freeze it before you start, like Saskia does ,Thank you so much. I know that has to be a big relief for her .bless her little heart ❤️
Pain relief comes in many forms depending on what is necessary and it is very important.
Lyn, you are so kind and compassionate with these sweet guinea pigs! You are absolutely amazing! ❤️😊 Thank you for what you do to help rescue these babies!
Thank you so much!
Aww, such a pretty lucky little Cinnamon. The vet should have one of these to know what she's going through
That's bound to make it feel better. Sweet baby....thank you for helping.
Poor girlie. I'm sure that in a bit she will feel better. The vet should have been able to take care of her and give her relief. Thank God for Lyn. She is a good friend to these little fur babies. 💕
The relief that piggy must’ve felt❤️ Your absolutely amazing 😍
Poor little thing! And yet she is still so gentle! I hope she has fully recovered!
Amazing how clam the patient stayed.
What a brave baby. I'm so glad that it came right out and gave it a much needed relief
As someone with a condition that causes abscesses I understand this poor piggies pain, the feeling of having it drained is pure relief compared to the feeling of a hot growing abscess stretching skin. I hope cinnamon recovers well. :)
Tes sorry you are going through this but yes definitely it such a relief to them.
You always do such a great job, and this one especially. You can tell how much your Guinea pigs trust you by how still he is during the treatment. Your calm and gentle demeanor puts them at ease, even in a painful condition as this. Bless your hearts 💕 You and Cinnamon
Thank you so much Jennifer. My hope is that people will pick up lots of tips and tricks about what is best practise for them. Thanks for watching.
Poor little baby. Amazing how she's reacting as if to bite but she's actually signalling" okay stop now, it hurts". Such a gentle little thing.
I’m amazed that the woman draining the abscess had her hair out loose and floating around while doing this procedure!!!
Yes shame on her - but you may also be amazed at the outcome and that she fixed this! th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
@@GuineaPigStuff No, not shame, but it is purulent matter, so one should be careful. Pull your hair back; you don't want to get infected.
Her hair never got anywhere near the abscess and I'm sure the guinea pig was so relieved to have the pressure taken off that abscess!!
Must have been such a relief for her, you're amazing!
I think so too!
Omgoodness sweetheart I’m so sorry you were in pain. You will start to feel better now lovee❤
She was so sweet and calm! I'm in love! She's the cutest Guinea Pig I've ever seen, though they are all adorable and precious! But there's something about Cinnamon!
Yes she was amazing - did you see the update?
Blessings and love to Cinnamon, hope she continues to do well xo
Poor girl. Glad she had you to help her out
Yes she is so much better but part 2 is very interesting watch out for it today.
Poor baby. Glad she’s feeling better now 💕
Such a good patient
Omg, poor thing. Thank you for helping Cinnamon.
Thanks Aang. Make sure you see what happens in part 2 - it is not what you think!
@@GuineaPigStuff oh I will. When you are planning to post it?
Tomorrow it will be available
@@oskaruib It is uploaded and running now
You’re so good with this little girl. I feel sorry for Guinea pigs. So many of them are neglected and they make the dearest little squeaks.
Thank you Carol
You poor baby I bet you feel much better know you are so adorable God bless you always
Absolutely did you see the update? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
almost perfect first cut size and delivery. good job
Thanks!
What causes an abscess? I really admire you, You have the hands of an angel
Thank you. They are infection based, so the infection could be caused by a number of possibilities from a bite, scratch, tooth, injury etc.
Oh man I totally understand how this piggie feels,, I had an abscess on my jaw/cheek area like this guinea from a wisdom tooth removal problem,, sad that people can get relief so quick but piggies have to find someone willing to do it 😔 thank u for helping these cuties !!!
Sorry to hear that! yes she has done really well.
Poor baby. I hope u have antibiotics for that infection. U did a wonderful job on draining it. Shame on the veternarian that denied that poor baby of treatment
Hi Tiffany there was a great deal involved in this but if you check out part 2 you can see what we did th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
I felt so sorry for the cute fur baby
I just knew you guys were Aussie I looked up your website before I knew you had a TH-cam channel now I know I have subscribed now got two piggie channels yours and saskia,s
Thanks Kathryn great to see you here and hoping you share us out to other platforms and feeds so we can help more piggies!🍏🍅🍇🍐
Such a great natured piggie
oh yes indeed
Have you considered doing saline flushes after draining abscesses? It's super easy and helps get any leftover infectious fluid out.
Anna thanks for watching however saline is not effective enough in cases like this.
Bless you Hun 💕💕💕💕
Thank you - glad you saw the final outcome. Her sister was sooo happy to see her again
@@GuineaPigStuff yes ☺️ that was the cutest part when they saw each other. She just lit up 😃
Thank you for all you do.
Please report the vet who denied care.
Sadly vets will not want to treat small animals like guinea pigs if they feel they don't have the knowledge or experience as they are classed as exotic pets.
My heart goes out to cinnamon but I know she feels better with that abscess being drained. I speak from experience. 33 cactus needles to deep to know they were there until I began to swell up. I hope cinnamon had a quick recovery.. your amazing with these sweet babies. I'm happy they found their way to you. 💙💜💛💚
Ouch hope you are ok!
@@GuineaPigStuff I'm good, my neighbor and her dog fell into a cactus a jumping cactus. It doesn't jump but their needles can stay hidden. I pick up my 87yr old neighbor and her dog they were both covered in needles. She went to the hospital and I took her dog to the vet. I tried everything to get them out and ended up in ER right along with this sweet lady.
Poor baby girl glad she will feel better
My heart! Poor little sweetie. 🥺
Yes but so glad we could help her
You videos help me so much
Thanks Toni
Prior to lancing the abscess, I would have used some iodine. Such a cute and brave little pig. ♥️
The Dr.Pimple popper of awfully cute guinea 🐷
CBD for pain before starting helps Tremendously
She had pain relief, this is important.
I find it so strange that some drs/ vets think it’s better to leave it alone. I get you don’t wanna cause more trauma to the area but those things hurt when they’re tiny! You gotta pop it .
Yes we always here differing opinions
You have to be careful because those cysts are very contagious. You really should have cleaned around the wound with betadine or alcohol. The fact that they can be so contagious and so much pooled under piggy she was litteraly soaked with the goo I hope she got a really good bath with a good soap. The only gross 😝 part was when it looked like 🐷 piggy was licking some of the goo 😝...lol.
The vet should have done this in a sterile setting and given her some antibiotics. Keep up the good work! 😊
Shana - more to come. Have you seen this? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgyxWBXDFoXsnOohmUZ4AaABAg
She is so cute
Absolutely
Do you ever remove the sac? To prevent regrowth
Lance these as low as possible so they drain down. You don't want that pocket below your opening.
That's what we do.
Hi! I have a guinea pig in a similar situation, and unfortunately we can't take care of it at the vet because it costs a lot of money. I was wondering what the solution you used to flush out the wound is? Thanks!
It is called debrisol . You can reach out to me on admin@guineapigstuff.com You do need to know what you are doing in this situation, please phone around for different vet prices.
@@GuineaPigStuff hi there! Thanks so much for your reply. My vet was unfortunately overcharging, almost $1000, for a simple abscess lancing, so we attempted to do it ourselves but couldn’t. Luckily we found another vet that does it for a much more reasonable price (around $200) and my piggie is there right now, hopefully it goes well. Thanks for your help!
Oh no,Cinnamon.:-O:-(:-( Then.I am happy she is and feels tons better.:-):-D
"They said I could be anything, so I became a hamster."
How do you prevent it from getting infected it after popping it?
Omg for such a small animal thats a giant cyst pimple infection
Oh yes. Have you seen this one? th-cam.com/video/qroK2FeATIU/w-d-xo.html
That was huge
Yes it was. Did you watch part 2?
Cavy Central Guinea Pig Rescue with Lyn no I’m gonna now
This happened to Both of my guinea pigs. I took them to the vet and they gave them antibiotics and pain meds and drained them.
I am sorry to hear this.
How much does it cost on average to get a vet to drain a cyst on a piggie?
@@mikeysfishingfuntime5070 I live in Alaska and it was approximately 4 years ago. I think I paid $165 for the visit, the draining, antibiotics, and pain relief medication.
Great job, your so gentle and caring, but please tie your hair back I was visualising it getting covered in gunk 😣
Thank you Wendy. It was a very big journey for her with a really great ending.
poor baby... hope its doing well now.
Have you seen this one? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
@@GuineaPigStuff yes... so sad =( but glad its doing better. thank you for what you are doing. =) my daughter for her senior project started a piggy rescue here and raised the money for vetting and that. She's rehomed several now and has a herd of 12 now she takes good care of.
😭 awww poor baby
Did you watch Part 2 - Check it out here th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
Doesn't that hurt them to shave the whiskers? I've seen Lyn do it with a few others
Does Doctor Pimple Popper treat guinea pigs?
Only people I think - perhaps share something to the Dr to find out? Thanks for watching .
Wow, I know vets have to make money but that would have been so quick and easy for them to do for the cost of medical supplies and just consider it a charitable donation since it’s a rescue.
Thank you for sending me the link good video
Thanks Alan
@@GuineaPigStuff i just subscribed i like all kinds of pops.
Poor girl, that looked so uncomfortable and to come up so fast it must have felt super tight to her. I know that freezing/numbing spray you used beforehand meant she wouldn't feel it but I'd be squeamish to put the needle or blade into her skin. I've injected pain relief into a terminal piggie before and felt squeamish each and every time, despite not being scared of needles. I admire that strength :)
I'm not sure where you buy your syringes but I buy from MedShop Australia and they have ones with a thin curved tip, would that be easier to flush an abscess with?
Hi Amanda You need to know what you can aspirate and what not to. Certainly the numbing is really important but once the abscess is I would use the syringe ( without needle) to flush always as injury with movement at that stage is far too great, and you want the liguid in and out of the area.
My Guinea pig had a huge lump under her chin and I had lance it it was over her wind pipe the relief she could eat after it the pus was really smelly
Its sore
Poor piggy!!! Why did you wait so long, for it to get that big?
No this appeared within a couple of days. She was taken to a vet that did not want to treat. She reached out to Cavy Central and came right in. Make sure you watch part 2. The owner acted very quickly trying to find help. She had lost substantial weight though.
If the vet seen it, why didnt he drain it?
My pig died last week, she just stopped eating and wouldn’t do anything, but I didn’t have any money for a vet so she just ended up passing and it made me so upset, I hate how expensive it is for a vet visit..
I am sorry. It is heart breaking.
What do you give her for pain
Numbed the area where aspirating the surface, and then some low dose meloxicam later .
@@GuineaPigStuff
if she's numb she sure is crying a lot 😫
That poor fur baby, so close to the eye as well.
yes - did you see the update here th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
I personally would have lanced it towards the bottom so gravity can help & so it doesn’t pool everywhere.
Wow! I have done some Animal Rehab but that was the just nasty!
Yes it was extreme - but have you checked out this? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
You need a little Guinea pig muzzle so they can't bite you when you have to do any work on them 😂😂☯️🦋😊
Did it come back?
Hi Abby - no fully healed.
@@GuineaPigStuff thanks for letting me know thats wonderful news
Is that a tooth issue? Or Hay Stab Maybe?
This was infection based. Once resolved she was eating and gaining weight .
Poor little baby. I get them and they hurt sooo bad.
Poor piggy-wiggy😢.
Warum keine zweite Person zum Halten? Wäre bestimmt einfacher und besser für das Tier.
We do if it is necessary and if we have them available. Thanks for watching. Cinnamon is a very lucky piggie.
Hey! My guinea had an abscess in his jaw drained just over 24 hours ago and obviously it still pussed a bled for a few hours after and its started to heal, but the area seems to be swollen still. Is that normal? Or shall i take him back to the vets. Thanks
Hi Shelley reach out to me on the facebook page facebook.com/Cavy.Central.ACS.Sydney
The swelling is usually normal. There are some things to be aware of in this area and I can help you with this.
@@GuineaPigStuff hi! I have just messaged you guys. Thank you x
I love absess bursts on animals but can't stand human ones lol. Good rule of thumb with flushing, you literally want to fill up that pocket until it's pouring out.
Awww poor little piggy looks so painful
Make sure you see the second one
4:30
So name and shame the vet who neglected your poor Piggy like this. Otherwise you are allowing them to WIN by collecting money for being absolutely cruel. NAME THEM AND WHAT CITY OR TOWN SO OTHERS CAN AVOID THIS HORRIBLE TREATMENT.
NAME AND SHAME THE CRAPPY VET.
I can’t believe a vet let her get like this!
Very lazy and extremely bad practice.
I would be putting in a complaint.
Yes indeed
It might be a tooth absess
Did you see the update th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
☹️😢
Poor baby
Have you seen the update? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
That Vet knows better. 😡🤬
Discussed with the vet who let her leave like that!
Yes absolutely followed up with them. Have you seen the upate? th-cam.com/video/NBwaRW7k4cs/w-d-xo.html
poor baby
Must better now though
Why didn't the vet drain this ? He did nothing but I bet he took he took your $$$ .
I treated this one. All explained in the video. She is doing very well.
You make that so much messier than it Hass to be why not put some gauze padding under it you’re just getting that shit everywhere that poor little pig has it all over him
This is just wrong that poor thing NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN TO THIS
That is caused by a bad tooth
No not always. There are a number of things can cause this.
I think she needs dental work
Hi no she didn't. This can be something that needs to be rectified though.
Do you know What really upsets me is that you did not use any pain relief not good that's cruel
I don't think you are watching as pain relief is paramount!
Will the guinea pig need a course of anti biotics as well as removal of the infection ??
No she did not require this.